Councilman Goode, I'm really not in a position to say whether using the money as planned is the better way to go on that.
Do you operate any other job training and placement programs, other than this one?
We have a program called Workwise, a supported work program.
Do you use -- Do you operate any other job training and placement programs where you use Community Service Block Grant dollars?
We have no other programs per se. However, we do have case managers who work within those programs who in part their responsibilities does include helping people to move toward work. As you know, the mission of the agency is to move people toward self-sufficiency. 294 Bill 040255 - 4/13/04
Your budget is roughly $28 million? Including -- Actually, Your budget is roughly $10 million; is that correct.
PWC's budget, I believe, is roughly $130 million? I mean, I don't see any reason why we should be using Community Service Block Grant dollars for job training and placement. And I know that's not your decision, but that's an issue that we have to consider. Thank you, Madam Chair.
My only follow-up comment would be, so often government is guilty of not talking across the invisible lines that exist among agencies. And to Councilman Goode's point, it may not be a decision, but it's worth certainly exploring at a level that's appropriate for you to have a Workforce Development Corporation do what they do 295 Bill 040255 - 4/13/04 well already. That's what they're in the business of doing. Comment, Mr. Blakney?
I will bring that question up with my superiors and supply you with some response to that question.
Okay. And then finally, purely as a suggestion, there are a lot of gaps and loopholes that exist with regards to leaving -- women in particular -- leaving prisons, back to being responsible mothers and contributing citizens. So conversations with others who care about that issue make sense. And I would ask that you look to speak with, have a sit-down with the Black Clergy because they're looking to make a dent and a difference in this area. And you're already -- You're doing it already. And the two worlds talking together can at least raise the number of women that you touch, in a way that moves them back towards self-sufficiency.
The Black Clergy are 296 Bill 040255 - 4/13/04 part of the reentry process that we have up and running.
Thank you very much. Further questions? Councilman Ramos.
Can we have the Budget Director approach the witness table?
Yes, sir. Mr. Dubow. And thank you very much, sir.
Good afternoon, Mr. Dubow. Why are you using Community Service Block Grant dollars for job training and 297 Bill 040255 - 4/13/04 placement, rather than PWDC dollars?
I heard the line of questioning. It is an interesting question. I'll have to look into it. It's a good point.
Well, I don't know whether it's not something that we just decided to do within the last couple of years. So, I need to look into to see why we do that, and then... I think your point's a valid one.
Thank you. Sir, is there further discussion about this issue? Councilman Ramos.
Yes. Thank you, Madam Chair. I have a few questions. You mentioned that you're producing or you have producing a bilingual brochure to inform English- and Spanish-speaking 298 Bill 040255 - 4/13/04 communities of programs and services. Can you talk to me a little about that. Where is it? How and where are they being distributed?
Yeah. MOCS up to the last few months was actually housed in approximately or different 9 facilities. And we had those brochures 10 available at all of those cites for people 11 who would come in for services. 12 MOCS has also distributed brochures 13 through our community engagement unit, which has a lot of contact with the public through their services. Many of them more recently had been working with the NTI program. And that's just some of the information that's available through the Community Engagement Unit, those brochures.
But how and where are we distributing these? I mean, for you to give out Spanish-speaking literature, I don't suspect you'll do it at 22nd & Cecil B. Moore, although we have a few Hispanic 299 Bill 040255 - 4/13/04 people who live in that area. What parts of town have you distributed this literature to Spanish from English?
We do have at least three Spanish-speaking staff people in the CDU unit. And I would have to get you a listing of all of the places where brochures may have been delivered, as well as the general vicinity or communities in which brochures were distributed.
You have, like, three people that speak Spanish in MOCS?
We have three Spanish-speaking people in the Community Engagement Unit.
Okay. How about throughout the MOCS system, outside of your -- not including the Empowerment Zone.
I don't know what the 300 Bill 040255 - 4/13/04 exact number is. I have to get back to you with that number.
Mr. Blakney, will you submit all this information to the Chair and we'll distribute it.
Well, I have just been given information, a breakdown of the current staff. Currently we have 16 Spanish-speaking people on staff at MOCS. 17
Are any of these bilingual people in areas where we have a high concentration of Spanish-speaking people?
I'd have to give you the other locations. That's one of other traditional satellite sites.
There's one person who routinely works there, but she's often partnered with another Spanish-speaking people.
A MOCS 302 Bill 040255 - 4/13/04 representative that handles...
And what do you have at 6th and Diamond? Is there a MOCS office at 6th and Diamond that you're using?
There's not an actual MOCS office there. It's a makeshift office, if you will.
Okay. Do you have any idea how many Hispanic people you're servicing?
Can you get that for me, please? Make it available to the Chair. This is why I -- The reason why I've asked these questions is, first of all, 303 Bill 040255 - 4/13/04 they're appropriate. But I find it a bit worrisome that an agency... And I know about this agency. I once served under the Administration of Wilson Goode, Sr. I was proud to serve for a year in this capacity. I left my construction work to help the Administration. And I was Director of a MOCS office in the Hispanic community, which now that office does not exist. It is worrisome that an office that is charged with... that is charged to move low income people to a self-sufficiency and out of poverty, that there is not anything here that says are we going towards new immigrants coming into the City of Philadelphia. Given that my experience, outside of friends that I have in academia, that come from foreign countries, my experience is that the immigrants that come into contact the most in this City are poor people. And I don't see anything within MOCS that addresses what are we doing as a government. And I think that MOCS is one 304 Bill 040255 - 4/13/04 of the appropriate places to address this with a new immigrant population. And although that immigrant -- the immigrant population speaks different languages, that the group of people that are -- the biggest group in the immigrant community in Philadelphia are people that speak Spanish that come from Central America, Mexico, mainly, but all over Central America. Then we have a migrant population that has lived here. My parents and I are an example of that. And those are of migrant population from Puerto Rico, of the American citizens. And I don't see where there's anything here that addresses that very poor community. This past weekend there was an article that 38,000 people left Philadelphia in the last three years. It is very disturbing. I think that we need to do more, especially with our immigrant community, given that that immigrant community that I 305 Bill 040255 - 4/13/04 have firsthand knowledge with is a very poor community. And if we can be of assistance to the poor immigrant community, there's a very good chance that they can -- that they'd be -- they'd be inclined to want to stay and live in a great City called Philadelphia. But if we don't reach out to them or we don't provide them services that by law we can provide them, then we can't see this City expand. So, I would like you to please take under consideration, as you go about... as you go about implementing the strategic realignment of your programs, that you include something here on how you're going to reach out to a poor immigrant community that has now found Philadelphia. In the case of people from Puerto Rico, we found Philadelphia many, many years ago. But it should still be a place where people can get services, find a job, raise a family, and continue to make 306 Bill 040255 - 4/13/04 Philadelphia their home, instead of what the statistics are showing us, that people are getting up and leaving this great City.
Well, Councilman, I sincerely embrace your concerns and can assure you that we will look at how we can provide more services to the immigrants. I would like to say that up to this time we do have an adult literacy program which we will be changing in FY '05, and that we realize that there are a number of adult literacy programs in this City. But I would point out that the English as a second language component of that program has reached out and provided services to immigrants during its time of operation. The Workwatch Program, which was mentioned earlier, which is a welfare to work program, also does have in its numbers of people who are being serviced immigrants. And as we also mentioned, the CEU unit of the agency also does provide some 307 Bill 040255 - 4/13/04 information and referral services to the immigrant population.
Can you give me whatever information and data you might have of how many bilingual people, particularly people that speak Spanish, are being serviced by MOCS? I know you have an office at South Broad Street. And just two Sundays ago, I held a meeting of the Spanish-speaking -- I called for a meeting of the Spanish-speaking immigrant community of South Philadelphia. And I had a meeting at 17th & Moore?
And I had folks come from the west side of Broad Street. The Hispanic population demographics historically in this City has been concentrated on the east side of Broad Street. Yet now this is a growing community on the west side of Broad Street. And I would -- At that meeting a couple of 308 Bill 040255 - 4/13/04 Sundays ago, I had a few hundred people come. And they knew absolutely nothing about MOCS. And in all fairness to you as well, to many City programs and agencies. And sometimes it really takes for government and schools to take a look at what's happening around them and start looking ahead, of what the City's going to look like in the next 10 to 20 years. And I would like to see this government be more visionary of where this City is going, who are the people who are going to inhabit this great land called Philadelphia in the upcoming years. And I'll be more than glad to work with you in helping you better define your strategic alignment of your programs, as it pertains to a population -- immigrant population that is growing by leaps and bounds. But if we don't try to keep them inside the City of Philadelphia through services and jobs and job training, they're going to move on to another town. 309 Bill 040255 - 4/13/04
We truly welcome your assistance. And I will say that we are aware of the migration of Latinos from the east side of Broad Street to the west side. And I'm sure that this Administration, not only within MOCS, but as MOCS continues to collaborate with other departments, that we will do a better job of addressing the needs of the immigrant population.
Here is another Philadelphia Initiative of the Street Administration that's being managed through the Managing Director of the City of Philadelphia. And I think that the different City agencies and departments need to -- maybe been instructed to go ahead and formulate plans. And I don't see it in your plan. But I'll be more than glad to help you. If you have not reached out to Phil Goldsmith, you should, so that we can implement this global Philadelphia plan into all City 310 Bill 040255 - 4/13/04 departments and services.
I certainly agree with my colleague, Councilman Ramos. The City is becoming much more diverse. And in years past we've always raised the issue of how is government going to address the issue of the diversity in the City, in terms of government access, the ability of our government to service people from many various backgrounds and cultures. And I will say to you that part of my District does. We have a very diverse District, in terms of the number of Latinos, but also other ethnic groups who need to have some connection with the resources that the City has to offer. And I'm not sure that MOCS even services the northern portion of the 9th 311 Bill 040255 - 4/13/04 District above the Boulevard. Do you have a program, an office in that part of the City? And if so, who runs that office?
The programs that would be considered in the northwest -- and I'm not exactly sure what boundaries you're using -- but we have the Youthwear Program currently, which is located at the 5700 Block of North Broad Street; the Russell Glane Older Adult Center, which is on Ogontz Avenue. I believe that's Ogontz and Washington Lane.
And the -- And the, you know, currently the -- Currently the Adult Literacy Program which is 138 West Chelten Avenue.
Well, I think it would be in your planning as you move forward. I agree with Councilman Ramos that we look at the whole global project that they've started in the Managing Director's 312 Bill 040255 - 4/13/04 Office, find some way to coordinate, and look at the City in its totality, and the number of new residents who are moving in the City. I have an Asian population, as well as Councilwoman Blackwell has a large Asian population in her community. And I'm often concerned about the ability to communicate. And have met with the Commission on Human Relations to talk about ways of communicating with these new residents, just to allow -- so that they can be informed of what services we provide them in the City of Philadelphia. And I think a more global approach by your office would be very helpful.
Yes, Councilwoman Tasco. We will once again be talking with the Managing Director about not only the immigrant population, but the current diversity of the City, and, you know, getting back to you with some response around what part MOCS will play in helping to address the needs of such a diverse 313 Bill 040255 - 4/13/04 population.
Thank you, Councilwoman. Councilman Nutter, you're next.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Mr. Blakney, if you've already responded to this, just tell me, and I'll move on to something else. But I noticed in your testimony the... On the second page toward the bottom, the $250,000 to address recidivism. Have there been any questions about that?
Okay. I'll read the transcript. How does -- How does MOCS determine, either from a goals or standards or benchmarking standpoint -- I mean, how do you know or determine how well the program is working? Are there particular goals, measurement standards, that you seek to achieve on a yearly basis? 314 Bill 040255 - 4/13/04
We... In order to receive the Community Service Block Grant funds, as well as the other grant funds that the agency receives, we submit proposals. And those proposals do include objectives, performance outcomes, and goals.
And so, we basically determine how well we're doing by whether or not we reach those goals.
Are these... Are they written somewhere? Is it something that you can --
-- share with us? Do you have trends over time to show what's going on? I mean, what is -- What's -- What is the fundamental goal of MOCS? What's the purpose?
It depends upon which fund or which grant you're speaking of. The six national goals for the 315 Bill 040255 - 4/13/04 Community Service Block Grant are, number one, low income people become more self-sufficient; number two, the conditions in which low income people live are improved; three, low income people own a stake in their community; four, partnerships among supporters and providers of services to low income people are achieved; five, agencies increase their capacity to achieve results; and, six, low income people, especially vulnerable populations, achieve their potential by strengthening family and other supportive systems.
I'm reading from a sheet which lists the six national goals for recipients of Community Service Block Grant funds.
No. But I will be more than happy to furnish you with it, 316 Bill 040255 - 4/13/04 Councilman.
Okay. And you read the goals. And how do you determine that... How did you determine that you're meeting it?
We determined it because our proposal to the state includes service numbers for the various goals. So, based on how well we provide services in each area, that's how we're able to determine our level of success.
So if the state takes your application or funds you again, I mean, does that -- is that the determination of whether you met the goals or not?
No. The Community Service Block Grant is formula based. It is based on the number of low income people in Philadelphia, as well as the number of people who are unemployed in the City. And so, there will continue to be some level of Community Services Block Grant funding from the Federal Government 317 Bill 040255 - 4/13/04 to Philadelphia through the state, as long as there are low income people and unemployed people in the City.
Yeah. I understand that. You tell me that there were six goals.
What I'm asking is who determines, or how is it determined, or what evaluation is made, and by whom, of whether or not you met those goals.
There is -- The Federal Government has a system called ROMA, which is stands for Result Oriented Management Accountability. And that is basically a method for looking at how well you did, whether people have moved towards self-sufficiency, whether they obtained jobs. And we'd be happy to furnish you with copies of those reports, if you would like.
Okay. And so 318 Bill 040255 - 4/13/04 actually what's the goal for FY '05, as compared to FY '04? I mean, in those six items, where are they today, and where do you expect them to be as a result of your FY '05 activities?
We are in the process now of putting together our proposal for FY '05. We received the RFP, if you will, and we will be submitting it shortly, so that's not conclusive as of yet.
All right. How many people are unemployed in Philadelphia?
I don't have necessarily numbers on unemployment. I can give you numbers around the number of people who are in poverty.
There's 336,000 below the poverty level, 414,000 below 125 319 Bill 040255 - 4/13/04 percent of poverty. So... And they're eligible for services through MOCS through the block grant; is that correct?
Okay. All right. But I thought one of the six national goals was... Did you say something relating to reducing the poverty level or reducing unemployment? I'm sorry.
Yes. The... The... None of the goals actually address unemployment per se. It basically says that low income people become more self-sufficient, which can be interpreted to include employment.
How many people became self-sufficient or will become self-sufficient in FY '04? And what's the definition of self-sufficiency?
That information we will have to provide you with. I don't have that information at this time.
Which? I asked 320 Bill 040255 - 4/13/04 two different things. I asked two different questions.
The information around how many people will become -- Because I don't believe we can say what that number will be at this time. We probably could give a projection, but I'm not even prepared to do that now. We have to furnish you with that.
I don't have that in front of me. The Federal Government's definition, the definition which I loosely use, is a person who has moved to a point where they're able to provide for themselves and their family without assistance.
Okay. But you said you would have to get back to us, in terms of either an actual number or a projected number of people comparing FY '04 to FY '03, in terms of how many people became self-sufficient and... Is that 321 Bill 040255 - 4/13/04 right?
Okay. And because you're working on your plan presently, are you even in a position to try to project FY '05, compared to FY '04?
No, I'm not. And one of the reasons why I'm not able to do that is because as we move forward, the Administration's intention is to place a lot more emphasis on partnering, partnerships between City agencies. As you've already heard, MOCS will be giving $250,000, in a sense, to the Prisons. And I could not speak to what the impact of that will be in the lives of the recipients of those services as a result of those funds.
Okay. I understand. Okay. Anything that you can get in response to the questions to the Chair, I would greatly appreciate it. Thank you. 322 Bill 040255 - 4/13/04
Thank you, Madam Chair. This question is for the Empowerment Zone. In... It's listed in the CAFR -- in the CAFR book that the Empowerment Zone is listed as spending $17 million in fiscal 2004, with another $17 million scheduled in fiscal 2005 for purchases of services. What was the this money spent on? And can we get a breakdown on what the $17 million for 2005 would be spent on?
It's spent through contracts with various, primarily non-profit, providers delivering a variety of programs, ranging from after-school programs, to our lending institutions, housing programs. I would be happy to provide a list of anticipated contracts for fiscal year '05.
So you're going to spend $17 million for fiscal -- or FY 323 Bill 040255 - 4/13/04 2004, the same manner for 2005.
that was our grant appropriation for fiscal year '04. Obviously they're still in that fiscal year, so I don't know if we will spend the full amount of the grant appropriation for '04. And so, I can provide you with a list of the contracts we have for '04, if that would be helpful, and our planning contract for '05.
So, your purchase of services is services that you have contracted out. Is that what that means?
Exactly. At any one point in time we may have up to 30 contracts for various services in three Empowerment Zone neighborhoods.
Okay. Thank you. One final question. Why... I believe this goes to the gentleman from MOCS. Why was the 2004 original appropriation almost $2 million underspent? 324 Bill 040255 - 4/13/04 MOCS -- and MOCS was expected to add close to 40 positions for fiscal 2004.
I know, as we said before, one thing about appropriation dollars, we never -- we never know the exact amount of how we're going to get from our grants. All of our funds are primarily awarded by grant. So, we try to put, like, a percentage increase based on our previous year, like... I guess our estimated obligations. And that's how we determine our appropriations. But in actuality, once we actually get our grants in, that's our true figure, as far as that's concerned.
Do you have to return that money to the fund, you know, to the -- where the money came from?
No, not the appropriation, because we don't have that 325 Bill 040255 - 4/13/04 many actually released to us until we get our actual grant allocation letter. So, for example, say we have an appropriation level of $1 million but our grant comes in at $500,000. We only get released to us the $500,000, based on our actual grants. So this money is not really used. It's more so like, I guess, an account, just in case we have to make sure that we have enough appropriations available to us in case we have a large increase in our grant dollars.
Maybe the follow-up question... Let me just have a follow-up question, why you didn't spend all of the appropriation. MOCS was expected to add close to 40 positions for fiscal 2004. What happened to these positions and why were they not developed?
Yeah. That might be. Let me see. Yeah. We can look into that and get back with you. 326 Bill 040255 - 4/13/04
You have laid out -- You were going to fill 40 more positions, but they were not -- these positions were not developed. It's in the... It's in your report. I just want to know, you know, why; maybe because you -- You didn't spend $2 million of your appropriation.
So I'm thinking maybe that's why you didn't fill your 40 positions. I'm just assuming that you didn't fill your 40 positions, so you had close to $2 million that you wanted to spend.
I'm only assuming. It's probably a bad assumption. I shouldn't be assuming. WOMAN WOMAN: Because actually, along with everything else, our positions 327 Bill 040255 - 4/13/04 are actually based on -- Well, we'll get back with you on that one.
Yes, you're absolutely next because there's no one else on the board who wants to speak. And then after this, before Mr. Hanna comes for... Debra Kahn is here to answer a previous question. And then we'll have housing and community development, which will be our last group for the day. Yes, Councilwoman Brown.
As a follow-up to Councilman Ramos' questions, what happens with those dollars? Do they roll over? Do you have to return them? Answer that question. Two, when you provide the detail, 328 Bill 040255 - 4/13/04 what are -- what were those 40 positions budgeted for? Specific programs that are existing, but they had been new programs. The details. MS GLADSTEIN: Okay. Sure.
So, the initial question: Are those dollars, did those dollars roll over or do you have to return them?
No, they don't roll over. But we don't actually have those dollars.
Until... We don't actually receive these dollars until we actually receive our grant amount. So, if we don't get a grant amount in that full amount, the City never releases those dollars to us.
So, everything combines with -- you know, is as a result of how many -- how many -- Once we get an award letter, we have to submit that to the 329 Bill 040255 - 4/13/04 Budget Director -- you know, the department -- the budget department.
And they'll determine, you know, how much they're going to release of those funds that we've been allocated, actually allocated by our grant.
You're welcome. Councilman Ramos, have all your questions been dealt with?
All right. If there are no more questions, we will ask Secretary of Education Debra Kahn to come forward. And as soon as those questions are answered, Mr. Hanna, we thank you for your 330 Bill 040255 - 4/13/04 patience. Then we'll ask Housing and Community Development to come forward. Thank you. Thank you. Well, as you've already spoken earlier, we will go right to questions. And one of our colleagues has to leave and wants to ask questions of our next witness. So we will go right into it, if that is acceptable. Councilman Nutter, Councilman O'Neill, in either order.
I just saw Miss Kahn here, and I asked if you could put her on. I know one thing she was coming back with was a definitive answer on whether the April 15th deadline was still the deadline or whether it's been continued or pushed back. So that's the particular question. I wanted to know -- There was some other information. I'm not sure if she was supposed to have it today, though.
I'm waiting to 331 Bill 040255 - 4/13/04 hear the answer.
The April 15th deadline for the public school students is still in effect.
So, let me repeat. You said the April 5th deadline for public school students is still in effect.
So, the issue with Catholic students has not been resolved?
Thank you, Madam Chair. So, Miss Kahn, what -- what exactly does that mean, in the whole scheme of things?
I think it means what I 332 Bill 040255 - 4/13/04 said earlier, that that deadline was set of course with the program that we had announced with the features that we had announced which applied to public school students. Students were supposed to get their applications in by that day, fill out all the appropriate forms so that the School District can review those files, make sure -- you know, review them for completeness, get any additional information that's required so that it would be sufficient time to process. As I said earlier, if in fact there is an arrangement that we work out that comes to expand the eligibility for the program to include non-public students, then certainly there would be a different timetable that would need to be set, in order to accommodate those students
It would seem to me, Miss Kahn, that if there was even a 333 Bill 040255 - 4/13/04 contemplation that that might happen, that the deadline would be pushed back -- Because it throws the whole program into a real messy situation. If you've got public school students told April 15th, then it reopens because you've allowed Catholic and other school -- private school students in from Philadelphia -- It seems to me that the decision's been made at -- I won't call it your end, but at the end of where the scholarship program is. I know there's different entities involved. Council's not involved in that directly. We're just involved with trying to see if we can approve the City funding of this. And I'm very disappointed to hear this.
Councilman, I would just have to say that I honestly don't see how that's the case because obviously students who don't attend public schools, those applications would be coming from the schools that they attend. 334 Bill 040255 - 4/13/04 And it would be a different process with different people involved. So that I actually don't see anything inherently problematic in having to have the kind of timetable that we established for the public school kids; and then, say, if in fact there are other students that come in, to set up a different timetable involving those schools, and those people who would be --
Well, then you have two programs. Then you've got a program for public school kids where the applications ended April 15th, and then you've got another program sometime later for non-public school children in Philadelphia. And if you are going to make it fair, you make it for everyone. And that means the public school students that missed the April 15th would then get another shot at the apple. And you create more problems for yourself. It would seem to me that if you 335 Bill 040255 - 4/13/04 had a contemplation that this might not be discriminatory, that you would move the time back at least to the time the budget passes, when you'll know whether you'll have money for the program. That's just my viewpoint. You may differ on it.
Seems to me that you don't know when the awards will come. So, if you don't have an equal opportunity, in terms of time, you don't know what funds could be left on the back end either. Councilman Rizzo.
Secretary Kahn, could you just briefly describe the communication that went into notifying parents of this scholarship program? Not everybody is... Not everybody reads the paper every day, and not 336 Bill 040255 - 4/13/04 everybody watches the evening -- or listens to the news. Did we mail something home? Did the student take something home with them? How do we know -- Are you fairly confident that all of our school -- high school children or parents of the children that are eligible for this program have been adequately notified?
Well, there was, first of all, the public announcement that was made on I believe it was September 30th, which did receive pretty extensive media coverage. But you're right, of course. That's never sufficient and you can never rely on that. So in the schools themselves, there was communication that went out on a, you know, repeated basis in terms of flyers, brochures. I don't believe that there was actually a whole mailing, but there were lots -- you know, materials distributed. 337 Bill 040255 - 4/13/04 There was also notification about -- you know, through counselors and principals and teachers, you know, trying to really touch students so that -- and families, in various venues, in different kinds of that event the School District had. And there were certain workshops held to notify students and families.
Don't you think something -- Don't you think something so very important... There's some kids out there that probably would like to go to college that maybe would hope that... Some of them just don't want to go to college even though they're smart, and they probably could achieve. Don't you think something so very important that the School District or the Administration should have communicated to these parents directly by a letter?
Well, I think that, yeah, you can never do too much communication, but it all -- But my experience is that all of the activities in which I've been 338 Bill 040255 - 4/13/04 involved, you can never do enough. But I do think that it really is important for all of us to understand, when it comes to this program, that the idea is that we would hope that one year, two years, four years from where we are today, in terms of the people who take advantage of this program, that it grows. The whole point here is that it does grow.
Well, I'm concerned about this senior class of kids that won't have another whack at the apple. I'm talking about something so very important that parents are aware that there's an opportunity for them to get some help, because I've heard -- I've heard on radio, talk radio, parents basically telling their kids that want to go to college that we can't afford and you cannot go.
And that's the perception that we in this scholarship program, and others, that we have to continually battle against. 339 Bill 040255 - 4/13/04 And again, there's been extensive media. There have been talk radio appearances. There have been forums. There have been workshops, a whole variety of ways. But again, I can't sit here and tell you that I know that we've reached every single family --