I would hope if there is any consideration -- And like many things that happen in this government -- that that 15th date may not be the dead date -- the deadline, that some last ditch effort be made to make sure that this really has been communicated, as well as possible. I know sending out whatever the number... Have you figured out how many seniors we have yet?
So it can't be 340 Bill 040255 - 4/13/04 that significant a mailing to make sure that each household gets a copy of a letter. How many were there?
Oh, you didn't. I'm sorry. That's Councilman Nutter's question. I've had this opportunity, and I appreciate it. I'll stand by and listen. But I would encourage you if the date does get extended, that we do something above and beyond what we've done already. Thank you. Thank you for your courtesy, Councilman Nutter.
Thank you very much. And we would say to the Secretary that all the... pretty much all the Councilpersons who are here today have expressed concern about opening up the 341 Bill 040255 - 4/13/04 process. And I'm not at all pleased about this aspect of the budget. So, having said that, Councilman Nutter.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Miss Kahn, let me try to understand something. You were here earlier. And you were very generous with your time. And you tried to answer the questions posed by either myself or others to the extent that you can. I know you've gone out and tried to get additional data, and I'll ask you about that in a second. I need, though, to better understand. What is the significance of the April 15th date in the whole scheme of things? You've responded to a number of members that, you know, there could be a subsequent decision to more fully open the scholarship program to all graduating seniors, as long as they meet the other 342 Bill 040255 - 4/13/04 eligibility requirements, in terms of what school they're looking to go to. I thought you also indicated that, whether because of availability of resources, certainly on the City's side -- And I don't know when the funds would get transferred on the School District side -- but that didn't you say that you were anticipating awards, either in the summer or possibly in the fall? Wasn't that your testimony earlier today?
Okay. So, why is there at the moment an immovable adherence to the April 15th date, just to get an application in? What is that about?
Well, first of all, we moved it back to April 15th from the earlier time. And we did that really to coincide with tax day, because in many cases families will need the kind of data that's provided on their tax forms in order to be 343 Bill 040255 - 4/13/04 able to completely complete -- fill out the different financial aid forms. The thinking was on the part of the School District, and they are really --
All right. They'll have it. And then they'll have it for the rest of the year.
No; I understand. But I'm explaining why we even moved it back to April 15th. I mean, and again, you know, the front line on this is really at the School District, where they have to be encouraging and supporting the counselors and the teachers and the students in soliciting these applications and in making sure that all the information gets where it needs to go. And the thinking was at the time that it will, once all of this information comes in and gets compiled and reviewed for completeness and thoroughness, because for students this will be the first time they've ever been through this and sometimes for families. 344 Bill 040255 - 4/13/04
To give enough time in order to get the information, to have it complete, and to be sent for processing.
I understand that. But in many of your responses, and certainly to Councilman O'Neill, and some of the responses earlier, you heavily emphasized or made repeated reference to the School District.
And I understand that they are a significant partner in this. And actually, they are the majority partner, if you will, in terms of who has what dollars in. But what I still don't really understand is, the School District has no 22 ability whatsoever to influence what the City does with City dollars that are in a budget under review by the City Council. And so, if we for the moment take 345 Bill 040255 - 4/13/04 the School District out of the discussion -- And one of the points I was trying to get to earlier was that, in terms of City dollars, I mean, there really is nothing to work out with anyone. The City can decide what it wants to do, and how it wants to do it, and what kind of program it wants to support with its own dollars because of the nature of the relationship between the taxpayers and their City government, regardless of where their kids go to school. So, when you were with us earlier and we asked about the date... I mean, who did you talk to, and what were the nature of the discussions about either moving the date or changing the one key parameter, which is... I know you've picked up is a particular sticking point with a number of Council members. I mean, what happened to that issue from earlier today?
Both the 346 Bill 040255 - 4/13/04 application deadline and the eligibility issue, since you're opening the program. Who have you discussed this with, since you were with us around noon?
As far as the application deadline goes, all I was asked to do was to confirm, because there was some discussion from members indicating that they thought that it had been moved back. And I simply confirmed, in terms of any of the information that the School District was putting out to its counselors, to students, whether or not that date was still in effect. And yes, I was told that that date was in effect. Doesn't mean it couldn't still be changed, but I am saying that as of today --
And since one of the people who was asking that question was Councilman Ramos, who I know cares about public school students, but also was asking the question from a perspective of opening 347 Bill 040255 - 4/13/04 the process. You know, I don't necessarily know that the sum and substance of the questioning was just to confirm whether or not the date had been pushed back. I think you heard or not. And I certainly appreciate that you have confirmed, and, you know, you can answer to Councilman Ramos about what he heard or what he had been told or what thought he had been told. But I don't think that any of us who asked questions about this were solely interested in the answer to, you know, this mysterious question of has the date been changed. I think there was another part to that question which is, will the date be changed, which is really, I think, the more important question.
Let me also note that with an award date being in August, it's... I don't know, obviously, there's a whole lot of time because if a 348 Bill 040255 - 4/13/04 lot of students really need money in August, they go away. And so, that's a very, very late date to even get the award. So, I don't understand. Or I guess we haven't been privy to all those discussions. But I don't even know why they would wait until August when kids get -- freshmen go away for their first several weeks either, but there are definitely some questions about that. I mean, students at graduation generally announce they know where they're going. And monetary awards are announced and grants are announced.
I understand that. But that is a timetable that actually works very well with colleges because they often don't even get their final financial aid packages to students until sometime over the summer. And often there's back and forth even after that, upon enrollment. And again, we're basing that timetable in part on the experience and the 349 Bill 040255 - 4/13/04 practices that have been followed by the City's current much smaller Last Dollar Scholarship Program.
Well, let me ask a more direct question. Given all the conversation that's happened today, the concerns that have been expressed, I mean, they say it every time we go into this area. I mean, I support this idea. It is a great idea. It is a great concept. And, I mean, I said to Councilman O'Neill and I've said to a couple other members, I mean, this is one of these situations where... I mean, you've got one of the best of ideas. But now in the course of the implementation, it creates all kinds of disruption and anxiety and consternation which then unnecessarily, I think, clouds the issue and the proposal and the idea. I mean, do you think that based on what you heard here today, that the application date should be extended?
I think that there is 350 Bill 040255 - 4/13/04 probably some confusion, in terms of what happens as a result of that application date. Again, the reason that the School District felt for its practices that we needed to have an application date which would, again, give their counselors and their staff people time to review everything before all of these applications needed to, in turn, go over to the Education Fund, it is simply that they would need some time to do that. But because of the date at which, in their experience, they anticipate getting the awards and the final awards from the various colleges, and because checks would not be issued until August and September, in my view that if, in fact, the eligibility is extended, there would be sufficient time before any of the awards are dispensed to have other students come into the program to complete their applications and to be able to be processed, along with the applications from 351 Bill 040255 - 4/13/04 the public school students.
I appreciate that explanation. But now to get to the narrower question. I asked you -- And I'd like to keep it in the realm of a yes or no -- do you believe that the deadline for applications should be extended? Yes or no. 10
From what I know now, I don't believe that it's necessary. However, what I want to do is --
Your previous answer was that you expect that it would be extended if other developments happen. I mean --
What I'm discussing right now is the application for public school students, which is the program that I know 352 Bill 040255 - 4/13/04 of that we have geared up to operate. What I will do is --
Secretary Kahn, we're not talking about a program just for public school students. And now I'm going to ask: In terms of the City support for this, the money that is in the budget in front of us, do you believe that the City of Philadelphia should support a program that is more inclusive and open to all graduated seniors in the City of Philadelphia, as it relates to the taxpayer dollars that come into the City and is now being supported by the City in this budget?
If you're asking me whether I personally believe so, my answer would be that I would like to see if we can work out an accommodation, that we can afford, that would expand the eligibility, yes.
You asked if an 353 Bill 040255 - 4/13/04 accommodation of some type of inclusion in the program, whether it is exactly the same terms and conditions... Because I go back to the fact that the structure of this program is a cost-sharing program now between the City of Philadelphia and the School District of Philadelphia on behalf of its students. If, in fact -- And I understand and I am well aware of what Councilman Ramos has put on record, in terms of the Archdiocese's current position. But if, in fact, they were able to come with the same type of cost-sharing arrangement that the City has with the School District of Philadelphia to do so on behalf of their students --
I understand that. I'm not talking about the City or the School District or with any other party. I'm talking about the City of Philadelphia's $4 million that came from all of the taxpayers, that no one asked 354 Bill 040255 - 4/13/04 them, you know, what's your race, religion, color, what neighborhood you live in, whether you like everybody or don't like everybody. Citizens get a tax bill for their real estate taxes, 58 percent of which go to the School District. Those people get a tax bill, some percentage of which goes to the School District of the City of Philadelphia, and the rest comes to the City of Philadelphia. No one asked you to make all these distinctions when you pay your taxes. There are no criteria. There are no... Again, other than usually income based, either created by the City, the state or the Federal Government. So, I don't want to create any confusion between the City portion and some other party.
I'm certainly not looking to create confusion, but I think it is important to recognize the structure of the program. 355 Bill 040255 - 4/13/04 And the structure being, as I believe you said earlier, the School District in the current arrangement we had now was the lead --
Secretary Kahn, it's a brand new program. It's not going by any particular statute, that I can determine. The City of Philadelphia will decide ultimately for itself how it wants to spend its money in participating in a program. If there were a program and the other parties said to the City, the only way you can participate is by excluding certain other citizens, I mean, the City has to decide for itself as a governing body whether it wants to participate in that. I mean, the tail's not wagging the dog here.
The issue is only what we have said so far publicly would be the structure of the program.
And what the benefit 356 Bill 040255 - 4/13/04 would be or what the maximum benefit, and what the cost sharing would be.
So, that's what I'm saying. What we could do, we have to look at what we can do within the current financial allotment.
Okay. Gotcha. I'm sure we'll have some more discussion about this. You have some of the statistical... numerical data that we discussed earlier?
I honestly believe -- And I hope we all realize that this isn't going to change, as long as there's an expectation of $4.2 million. The only thing that will change this is a City Council decision not to put forward the money in its current form 357 Bill 040255 - 4/13/04 because that would be an ultimate City decision. The Mayor can only make the proposal. Council has to ratify it or cause it to be changed.
Around May 20th, when this budget will be reported out, I'm sure less than a month for the application period, if it were to be a change. So, we're dealing with something that already has serious problems, just in terms of the substance. And then we'll get shifted, to terms in -- to a problem, in terms of process.
Because of the school year and the realities there they're in. So, we may have to -- this may be where we have to do something a little sooner than reporting out of the budget. That's all I wanted to say. Because I 358 Bill 040255 - 4/13/04 think a decision been made not to change this program unless absolutely forced to. Thank you.
Right. Okay. How many school children are in the School District of Philadelphia?
Well, I did ask about the total population. How many high school students are there?
Okay. And this is -- And I just want to confirm the source. This is data that's been compiled and reported by the Pennsylvania Department of Education, and these are '03, for 2003 numbers. The total public high school enrollment was 62,957.
Includes charter schools of 4,000. All right. So, 62,957 is the total high school population last 359 Bill 040255 - 4/13/04 year. How many graduated?
And the number of graduates that was reported, again for '03, was 9,507.
Well, the college-going information, as I believe I said earlier, is less than what we would want it to be. And this data has not been collected well on a regular basis. The last numbers that I have that were compiled were, I believe, for the 2000 360 Bill 040255 - 4/13/04 school year. And at that time they had a record of 2,579 students being enrolled in college, which puts us at less than... you know, just about percent of the 6 graduates going on to college, of whom 77 7 percent went to the schools that are 8 eligible, because we talked about that 9 earlier, too, for the core scholarship 10 program. 11
Correct. And the goal 17 again, very much -- And I think this points 18 to -- And these numbers have been reported 19 many times that the School District 20 estimates its college-going population is 21 in the neighborhood of 30 percent, and 22 again points to the really compelling 23 reason why we need to do a number of 24 things, scholarships included, to try to 25 grow that number. 361 Bill 040255 - 4/13/04
I hear what you're saying. I guess... Why do we only know from the year 2000 how many students went to college?
Because unfortunately it's just not information that has been compiled and collected and looked at on a regular basis.
The first set 362 Bill 040255 - 4/13/04 were for '03. The 62,000, the 10,000, the 9,000 were all '03 numbers. We do not know today how many students are in school. We can tell you for last school year. But the attended college number is from 2000.
I would just say the changes that are being made at the School District, particularly the emphasis on the secondary level, the need to improve... As I know Paul Vallas has talked about a number of occasions, the academic preparation for students, particularly those on the college track, to look at advanced placement courses, all of those things to really take very seriously, that there are programs. All of this... All of this points to what we readily acknowledge, is a need to change the culture in high schools. And part of that means, yes, counting and keeping track of that kind of information. So, the fact that it hasn't been done on a complete regular way, again, 363 Bill 040255 - 4/13/04 speaks to the exact need that we're acknowledging and looking to address in a variety of ways.
Miss Kahn, whether you know how many students went to college or not, from my perspective, has nothing to do with whether people got a scholarship or not. I mean, that's an internal accounting or accountability issue over at the School District. It has nothing to do with whether there are scholarship's program or not. The two have nothing to do with each other. That's a focus issue. That's an accountability issue. If you had $8 billion worth of scholarships available, that's not going to change the numbers that you just gave us here today. Because we don't know.
Well, it could change the numbers, but it wouldn't change necessarily whether or not you counted those numbers, unless you made a commitment to do that. 364 Bill 040255 - 4/13/04
And what I'm saying is -- Yes, that's part of this effort in not just the scholarship, but in upgrading the high schools in keeping track and saying, it is important to us, and --
Tell me what's happened since 2000 to now April of 2004. Tell me the system changes that have taken place over at the School District to better account for the whereabouts of graduates.
The School District has had a whole lot of change in that time period, which I know that everyone here is well aware of. And frankly, there were a whole lot of, you know, changes and difficulties, and problems going on --
Well, Ms. Kahn, with every respect, if I was aware of this particular issue, I wouldn't ask you about it. But I don't know what they've done to better track the students because I'm stunned at the information that you gave me 365 Bill 040255 - 4/13/04 here this afternoon.
This Administration now has made a commitment that it will better track its graduates. And that's something -- And I'm not proud of it, and I'm not happy about it, and I'm as displeased as you are, but the fact is --
Well, then why can't they tell me how many -- how many students are in school today or yesterday or in September, and how many students graduated last May, last June and went to college? 366 Bill 040255 - 4/13/04
I don't believe... I don't believe that... When I go to high school commencements, there's always a bragging part of that commencement...
...that tells the parents and everyone there that we got 150 of the graduating class of 2003 that are going to college. I can't believe that that number is not taken back to the principal's office or the counselor's office and is recorded that the Class of 2003 from Ben Franklin High School had 200 kids that went on to college. I cannot believe that is so. I would ask Debra Kahn to double check that because -- I mean, if you're taking away the biggest -- the most -- the thing that 367 Bill 040255 - 4/13/04 you're the most proud of in a high school to -- and that is, how many of your -- how many of your kids are going off to college. I mean, it has to be somewhere.
If I can just respond, I would say I have had and said almost exactly that same thing and had that same experience. And what they keep telling me is, number one, it hasn't been compiled centrally; and number two -- and this I can absolutely attest to -- that from the time graduation comes in June until enrollment occurs in August or September, there is traditionally a substantial dropoff in the students who actually end up going to enroll in college.
But to say that our high schools are not keeping an account of one of the most important things today that they do, and that is to announce how 368 Bill 040255 - 4/13/04 many of the kids are going on to college, I find very hard to believe that they're not doing that.
It is part of the improved tracking and record keeping and outcome data that we absolutely need to put in place to track better outcomes for our students.
I cannot perceive of taking this program forward and putting $4.2 million of City taxpayer money behind it when you don't know this information. To me this is worse than your earlier discussions about the discrimination part of it because even as Councilman Nutter has said, in concept this is a terrific program. We just have to make sure it doesn't discriminate. But how can you even go forward with applications, with time deadlines, with getting information out, and you don't know the very information that you're using to buttress the justification for the program 369 Bill 040255 - 4/13/04 to begin with.
2000. Those kids have graduated from college, whoever they are, in about another two weeks. This is -- That's ancient history for statistics like this. I'm concerned. Look, the School District I understand. They're responsible for the schools, for the students. Anything they can get money for for those students, any information they don't have to supply to this Administration, City Administration, and still get money, more power to them. I think it's a disgrace that the City Administration, first of all, is willing to even get into a program like this, with specific deadlines ready to kick off for this coming school year in September, without the kind of foundation of information that you need to get this far. And then on top of that, the City Administration is willing to put its name 370 Bill 040255 - 4/13/04 on a discriminatory practice. I can't understand it because I can understand the School Reform Commission. They have a different mission than we have. They only have the smaller focus of their mission at the public school system. We have the taxpayers of Philadelphia. But we assumed you, the Administration, putting this together have up-to-date information, even if we disagree with the results of your discussions, that your discussions were based on some information, now ancient. And in this world 2000 is ancient. With the technology we have, if there's a dropoff number, it's the same for the parochial schools and other schools as it is for the public schools. It's not going to change. If they announce at graduation at such and such a high school that's not public that they have X number of students going, whatever that dropoff is, it's not going to be any different in the public 371 Bill 040255 - 4/13/04 schools. That's just a dropoff where kids say they're going, and then they don't go. But not knowing how many said they were going, and the official count as of the May or June graduation, to me how can we be talking about something that has two days left for the deadline for the application, without that kind of information? I feel even stronger on that than I did before.
Madam Chair, if my colleagues would indulge me, I needed to be out of here probably 10 or 15 minutes ago. If I could ask two or three minutes' worth of questioning of the Secretary of Housing and Neighborhood Transformation before we return to this.
That will 372 Bill 040255 - 4/13/04 be fine, then. Mr. Hanna.
Miss Kahn, would you wait in case they have further questions.
Thank you for your patience. We say welcome. It must be noon, since that is your allotted time.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Mr. Hanna, Mr. Dubow, I actually could not wait for the final questioning, 'till the callbacks. I'm assuming you may be called back for further responses to questions. But in line with a number of things I heard today, 373 Bill 040255 - 4/13/04 some specific things have come up over the last week. First I ask Mr. Dubow, is there or is there not a hiring freeze in effect?
But in previous testimony today, we've seen a number of different -- and in testimony that will occur tomorrow, we've seen a number of different offices, including the Mayor's Office, that will be doing new hiring in the -- under the Secretary of External Affairs for the Mayor's Office, the Inspector General's Office, at the Minority Business Enterprise Council. So, in effect, there is a hiring freeze for some agencies and not a hiring freeze for others. Would that be a correct statement?
Well, the way the hiring freeze works is that before any hiring can happen, it has to be reviewed by Finance to make sure that there's money in the budget, 374 Bill 040255 - 4/13/04 and then the appropriate cabinet member, to make sure that programmatically it's something we want to do. So I guess it's not -- It's a...
It wasn't a general question. I want to get very specific. In a context of what you're proposing, in terms of charging a $35 application fee, are you sure where there's going to be a hiring freeze and where there is not?
In a context of what you're going to be doing, in terms of proposing a $35 application fee...
Are you yet sure where there are going to be hiring freezes or not?
Yes. In places where they will be hiring are sort of places where it shows in the budget.
I guess the next question is for Secretary Hanna, then. 375 Bill 040255 - 4/13/04 The proposed reorganization of the housing agencies, is that automatically expected to result in a decline in the number of people working in housing agencies?
I'm sorry. I didn't quite hear your question. Can you repeat it for me, please?
In terms of your organization of housing agencies, is that expected to automatically result in the decline of employees within those housing agencies?
It will probably result in a net decrease overall in the number of employees, yes.
All right. Do you know yet which positions you want to keep and which you want to get rid of?
That we don't know, but we will know by the time we come back to Finance for next month for the CDBG.
Now you're a little bit more specific, was the reason I 376 Bill 040255 - 4/13/04 had asked the question today. You recently posted an interview for a position of Neighborhood Program Coordinator.
Yes, sir. That particular position, though, was to replace a person who had left. That wasn't a -- didn't represent a net new hire. We lost an individual. We needed to replace that individual.
Okay. I believe it may have been an informal offer made. I believe afterwards the decision was made to then not fill that position. And the reason I asked the question of whether there is a hiring freeze or whether there's not, is: Are there 377 Bill 040255 - 4/13/04 processes happening? This is a question for your agency, as it goes through reorganization and the City. Are there hiring processes going on out there, where people are interviewing for jobs, possibly believing they are going to attain those jobs, and the City doesn't know yet whether it's going to actually have those jobs available?
Well, just to speak for my department, in the situation like the one you just described, where we lose an individual, and we, as in myself and my senior staff, deem it appropriate to replace that individual -- And that's not always the case. But in the situation that you just described, it was deemed appropriate that we needed to replace an individual. And yes, we will rehire that individual or an individual to replace that or fill that particular slot.
My understanding is that an offer was made to someone. They 378 Bill 040255 - 4/13/04 were supposed to start, actually, tomorrow, and they were told that the position is going to remain vacant, which I find very strange, just in terms of hiring practices, period. But I'm also asking that in the broader context of what's happening, in terms of agency reorganization, one; and two, in the whole context of the budget hearings, as we also are considering whether we're going to charge people $35 for a job application. I mean, the larger questions is -- And maybe it's more appropriate; I don't know; for Mr. Dubow or who. Can you actually interview someone, have them compete for a job, offer them a job, and then change your mind and decide it's going to be vacant? And in the context of that, if you do plan on doing that, which is a bad, I think, employment system in general, would you give them their $35 back?
Could I speak again to 379 Bill 040255 - 4/13/04 that specific situation? Again, to repeat myself, to my knowledge we have not verbally or in writing offered that particular position out. That's not to say that... In fact, I'll go as for as to say that I instructed our staff not to hire anybody just yet or not to extend any offers. That was my specific instruction. Now, as to whether or not an individual a couple layers below me communicated verbally or otherwise that the position was going to be for them, I can't speak to that. But I know what my instructions were.
I need two things from Mr. Hanna, Mr. Dubow, which you could forward through the Chair. Mr. Hanna, I need to know whether that position is still vacant, and when the decision was made that a position will or will not remain vacant. I need to have it in writing, in terms of when that process happened, and 380 Bill 040255 - 4/13/04 when a decision was made. And Mr. Dubow, I need to know more specifically from Administration, without going back, where in fact there are hiring freezes or not, because essentially we're talking about a position that people were interviewing for. There were candidates for a position. There was an offer made. And then at the same time that someone actually thought they were going to be in work this week, they find out that, no, the position is going to become vacant. And I can't believe that the hiring freezes are that flexible or fluid. But if you could forward that information through the Chair, I'd appreciate it.
Secretary Kahn, I'm sitting here very troubled by your 381 Bill 040255 - 4/13/04 testimony. And something tells me that there may be a communication problem here. I'd be real curious, and knowing Paul Vallas... Knowing Paul Vallas, I think if you asked him that question, how many kids would graduate from our schools and go to college, it sounds like that's the kind of thing that he could spit out just like that. Are you sure you're talking to the right people over there, that can't tell you that information? Like Councilman O'Neill said, and Councilman Nutter, it's mind boggling to think that one of the most basic questions that you would have where you'd want to brag about is how many kids that you send off to college. Who are you talking to? Because I would bet Paul Vallas would go through the roof if he heard your testimony.
Paul and I have had these discussions, been talking one on one and talking to others as well. 382 Bill 040255 - 4/13/04
Now, I did not speak with him directly today. But we have always used this same phrase of, we believe the estimate is about 30 percent. And as far as I know, it's based on the same survey that I've referenced. However, what I really would like to point out is that that 2500 of just a few years ago, there's really not much reason to believe that it would have changed very much in the past few years. And in fact... And I would further say I think that the fact of what that number was from that last survey points to the real significant problem that we have, and that we all need to do everything we can to try to improve those statistics. And in fact, looking at the applications right now, I mean, we have further confirmation that that number might in fact still be... I'm not saying that we -- 383 Bill 040255 - 4/13/04
I'm not talking about... I'm not talking about how many. At this point I don't really think it's relevant. I think the problem is, who was the school superintendent in the year 2000 when the statistics -- when the information was gathered?
Do you think there's some significance to him leaving and that information's available up to when David Hornbeck left? Then you've got the new superintendent that came aboard, and you don't have it? I mean, I just can't -- It's just hard for me to believe... It's just hard for me to believe that we could be operating a school system and an Administration... If I were the Mayor of this City or a top executive in the 384 Bill 040255 - 4/13/04 Administration, I'd be proud to know how many kids went off to college.
And I agree with you. And we all want to have that data. And I think your characterization of Paul Vallas is right on. And he absolutely wants to get this data. And from everything I understand, they're committed to doing the kind of surveys this year that would enable us to get it, for a lot of priorities --
For 2001, 2002, and 2003 somebody obviously dropped the ball.
I guess my characterization of Mr. Vallas -- And I don't mean to be disrespectful -- was obviously not correct.
That's what you're telling me. If you're telling me 385 Bill 040255 - 4/13/04 that the man does not know, after he's been the school superintendent for -- since David Hornbeck left, that my characterization of him is wrong. I was misled, and I'm absolutely amazed that he doesn't know that information.
I don't want to beat this to death, but I'm just telling you. Now I see why we're in the -- I can't say the word here -- why we're in the situation we're in in our school system, if we don't even know the most basic information that an amateur would want to know. Thank you.
I will always let Paul Vallas speak for himself because he will do that. But again, my best understanding is that we are absolutely committed to get that information.
Sure. After this -- After today, I don't see any... I 386 Bill 040255 - 4/13/04 don't... It took this hearing today to get that information, to start gathering the information. Because you probably would have had another year that you wouldn't have had it, unless the scholarship program is driving it. But my point being is, until the scholarship program -- And how you even have a scholarship program without knowing the information, at least some basic numbers, it's -- again, it's mind boggling to me. Thank you. Thank you, Madam Chair.
You're welcome. Thank you. Are there any further questions for Secretary Kahn today? Councilman Nutter.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Just very quickly. Secretary Kahn, if you could get a more detailed response to the data request. I thought that your response when you started was that the information you shared 387 Bill 040255 - 4/13/04 with us came from the Pennsylvania Department of Education; is that correct?
Yes. As stated, it's compiled by them, which is of course submitted by School Districts.
I understand that. But you said it was for 2003. I think, given the nature of the conversation, it would be helpful if we had 2004, at least end of the... the midway mark for the school year December 31, 2003, data directly from the School District for the items in question: Total school population, total number of high school students, total number of seniors, any information they have projecting graduation. And the one thing I would mention to you is if the numbers are consistent, although I am -- I don't mean to doubt you at all, but I mean, I would really be surprised... I'm really surprised that this year 2000 figure that you gave us of 2,579 young people going on to college. 388 Bill 040255 - 4/13/04 You mentioned, though, that 77 percent of those going on to college, seniors, had attended the schools in 5 question. 6 Given that number, which I think 7 gets you to about 1900 or so students, it 8 would still seem to indicate, based on 9 these figures at least, that there is room 10 for other young people to participate, 11 possibly of a non-public school nature. 12 Do you have any information, for 13 instance, that would indicate for those 19 14 schools, how many last year, year 2000, if 15 we're going to compare apples to apples, do 16 you know for the year 2000, how many 17 non-public school students attended the 19 18 schools? 19
I think it might -- I mean, part of what all of us, I think, are trying to get to is a better understanding of the universe of potential students who could participate in this. 389 Bill 040255 - 4/13/04 Because quite honestly, we might find that based on not only number of students who graduate, but also what their preferences are, in terms of where they go. You know, the magnitude of the, quote unquote, financial problem, in terms of the overall program, may not be as great as you're concerned. And I understand the rightful concern about it. That puts aside our dispute about whether or not the City should participate in a discriminatory program. But, I mean, you might have space to do some other things, just based on the pure numbers.
I would say two things in response to that. One, I think that points to what one of the benefits of waiting is, so that we could, in fact, get some idea of what the experience might be. And even in terms of applicants -- public school applicants for this year. And I think we now have a better handle on that. 390 Bill 040255 - 4/13/04
We tried to point out many of the benefits of waiting. But, you know, from today we've heard that there would be no waiting.
Well, I mean, even waiting until this point, when we do have -- you know, which was a different experience than back in October, when we had not kicked anything off, and didn't know what the response would be.
Well, I understand that. But I'm sure if you had your druthers, as -- And I appreciate your trying to put the best... you know, the best possible perspective on all this. But there's no way in the world that you were waiting for today. Given all that happened in the course of this day, I would tend to think that over the course of the weekend you were not eagerly anticipating coming into this kind of environment just for the opportunity to point out that by waiting we'd make the program better. I mean, come on. 391 Bill 040255 - 4/13/04
I didn't say that that's how I spent my weekend. But I do mean, and very seriously, that I thought that if we had some experience and had some idea of what the demand would be, that we would be able to make a better decision. And, secondly, I do want to point out that since the stated public -- the intent for public funding is over a four-year period, again to emphasize that the idea is that this volume would grow, that it would grow on the part of public school students and anybody else who gets in. So, I think the budget needs to be looked at in that context, in a multi-year context.
Thank you very much. If it is acceptable, we would like to finish with Housing and Community Development now. Thank you Secretary Kahn, Mr. Wilds, Mr. Hanna. 392 Bill 040255 - 4/13/04 Thank you for your patience. And then we can formally invite you to deal with your testimony as you couldn't before, and say thank you for your patience.
If Secretary Kahn can just bear with us for a few minutes, I think we have to have the Secretary come back because I just received some information that there are some statistics available on how many seniors graduated from last year's class. There were 12,000 seniors. 9,000 graduated. And between 4,000 to 5,000 went on to college. So, I think it's very important that we find out if, in fact... This is the information I had got from the School District a few minutes ago. I think we need to verify this information because we just heard from the Secretary that it was not available. 393 Bill 040255 - 4/13/04 And now just a phone call has provided me with some information about how many seniors were in the last graduating class. There were 12,000. 9,000 graduated. Between 4,000 to 5,000 went on to college.
Do you have any information on whether there's tracking of those who announce at graduation they're going to college or whether that's impossible or...
I think that's... I just wanted to see if there was any information out there. And this is the preliminary information. I believe that that question, you know, should be answered -- could probably be answered as well.