Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Give me one minute, Chair.
I'm going to reach out to Council for one second, okay?
Thank you.
Okay, Chair, change of plans.
We're going to go with Federal Street first.
Are we ready to go? Yes, sir. We were ready. Thank you. Good morning, everyone. My name is
Frank DiCicco. I'm the chair of the Zoning Board of Adjustment. I'll be participating in today's
hearing along with our vice chair, Ms. Carol Tenere, Board Secretary, Confessor Plaza, and
Board Members, Mr. Thomas Holloman and Mr. James Snow. Board Administrator, Lakeisha Dandy,
and Board Administrator, Ms. Sharon Saleta, are also in attendance. For those of you who haven't
yet participate in one of our virtual hearings, I'll go through some of the basics of what you
can expect. First, we will be administering oaths to individual participants prior to their
testimony. Second, we'd like to advise everyone that this proceeding is being recorded and that
by participating, you acknowledge your agreement to be recorded and that the recording will be
made available to the public on the web or otherwise. For anyone participating by phone,
if you wish to testify, you must raise your hand by hitting star nine and then star six to unmute
yourself. I'll repeat, for anyone participating by phone, if you wish to testify, you must raise
your hand by hitting star nine and then star six to unmute yourself. Finally, to make an appearance
statement, call Google 267 -270 -5548 and leave your email address and the address of the property at
issue. Pardon me. I'll repeat. To enter an appearance statement, call Google 267 -270 -5548
and leave your email address and the address of the property at issue. I'd also like to remind
everyone, please do not attempt to testify in the chat. Any comments should be directed to the
board administrator, Ms. Tanya Dandy. And with that, we will proceed. The first case will be
MI 2020 -003086, I'm sorry, 1231 Federal Street.
Chair, we have a Mr. Leonard. He's coming in now as a panelist.
Good morning, Mr. Leonard. Please identify yourself with a record and I'll swear you in.
Good morning, Leonard Reuter for the city of Philadelphia. That's L -E -O -N -A -R -D. Last name is R -E -U -T -E -R. I'm at 1515 Arch Street, 15th floor.
Good morning. Leonard Reuter for the city of Philadelphia.
that's L -E -L -E -R
You swear for him to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
Thank you. Will you be leading off, Leonard?
uh probably it's mr miller's case but i think i can probably preface it with some statements uh
i don't know uh andy what you how you want to proceed miller would you identify yourself
of the records by your name and i'll swear you in good morning may it please the board
my name is andrew miller and i represent 1231 federal llc and pelly partners llc
you swear or affirm to tell the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth
yes sir thank you uh mr reuter yeah i think maybe i can um uh cut some of this off uh depending on
how the board wants to proceed but um the city of philadelphia is uh it's our understanding that
this is now being presented as an appeal against lni or in effect a challenge of the refusal uh
based on the claim that this is a lawful non -conforming use the city of philadelphia is
not opposing that claim and i can say that i've done my own research on the matter and have able
been able to confirm for myself on behalf of the city that in fact this the use of this property
as a warehouse states back at least to the 1940s it appears to have been continuous throughout that
period, and also that during the period of its most recent vacancy, it was consistently
marketed as a warehouse, and therefore it does not appear there was any intention to
abandon that use.
The only reason when these cases come up, it's L &I's preference that we just leave it
to the board to decide so that once there's a board decision, that would then go into
the file and the record you know the zoning archive for the property would would be clear
because that's that's one of the problems is that we don't really have the old zoning permits
in fact I think the property was constructed around 1925 but so the use actually may be
pre -code and that's probably why there is no zoning permit for the use that I think it was
a plumbing supply warehouse for most of that period and then that changed probably in the
1980s or so and i can also state from personal experience speaking as a fact witness that
i live pretty much around the corner from this place and it has always been it's never at least
in the 20 years i've lived down here it's never been a residential property but again we we prefer
to just i'm just making that as a statement we're not going to oppose anything we're not going to
present anything we'll let mr miller present his case and then leave it to the board to make the
decision. Thank you. Appreciate that. Mr. Miller? Well, we've already made our record, Mr. Chairman.
We presented our entire case. I don't believe there was any evidence to suggest that the use
had ever been abandoned, which would be the standard for denial. So the unrebutted evidence
is that the use has been a commercial industrial use and we simply ask that our appeal be granted
the rescheduling was to give the city the opportunity to make a record if the city
chose to do so and I'm grateful for Mr. Reuter's cooperation but I have nothing to add
Chair, this is Sharon Saleta. We do have one and possibly two witnesses who will testify as to whether this was in fact a continuing use or whether it was abandoned.
Thank you. So we'll get the testimony, Mr. Miller, and then we'll get back to you.
Just wait in. Okay, so first witness, please identify yourself with the records, spell your full name, and I'll swear you in.
can you hear me this is phyllis fox yes ma 'am please just spell your full name and i'll
swear you in phyllis p -h -y double l -i -s fox f -o -x we're a firm to tell the truth the whole truth
and nothing but the truth i do thank you please proceed um i am a representative of the passion
square civic association the zoning committee and um as from our letter you understand that we are
against this although it um it wasn't consistently a warehouse i mean they had stopped that at one point
it wasn't consistently a warehouse. I mean, they had stopped that at one point. It was like almost
like a sweatshop manufacturing clothing in there. And although that was the case, it was maybe a
plumbing warehouse at one time. Everything else that belongs to that plumbing company at this
point has been made into apartments. And what we feel is that we're homes and the property that
they owned, the DemiCo plumbing, is now no longer in that type of use. The building next door,
as you face it, to the left, it used to be the Jehovah Witnesses building, and they are now
apartments. What we're saying is we don't believe putting this as a distribution center and a
warehouse is the correct thing for this area and considering how the area has been developed or is
being developed and we are definitely against it because of that. We would like
the building is for sale so whatever happens to with zoning is going to go along when the sale
goes through, it will be in effect. So we don't know, although we know the present owner is
considered of the neighborhood, we don't know that the next owner will be that way.
And last, what we would like to say is that if it does become what they would like it to be,
if the zoning board agrees to that, which we're hoping they're not, but if they do,
um it's been requested that they um maybe do some uh work on the walls framing the walls with
insulation so any noise from the facility that comes in there will not impact the neighbors on
all sides of the building thank you uh i just have one question miss fox uh i've heard this in the
passed uh the the reference that this will become a distribution center yeah do you have any knowledge
as to where that information is coming from uh no no i don't all we our only information is that
it's going to be like a warehouse in a distribution center yeah i mean i just was curious i've been
hearing that quite often and someone mentioned it would be amazon i i can't imagine amazon trucks
even getting into that garage but as a warehouse it was I think testimony was in the last hearing
that it has been used in the past manufacturing of clothing I think it was that in my mind I
actually looked up the definition of warehouse and raw materials or manufactured goods may be
stored before their export or distribution in a large building that would constitute a warehouse
So I personally have not, based on that and the testimony that was given by some of the near neighborhood neighbors, it appears to me that the use has not been abandoned.
But that's for the board to decide.
I just wanted to get that on the record.
All right.
If I can make one more comment, it's people, neighbors, and one of the board members actually have seen in the past people sewing clothes in there.
So it wasn't like you would walk by and if the door was open, you could see rows of sewing machines and rows.
So it was not just the storage. It was the manufacturer, too.
Well, it's both. It's both. I agree. All right. Thank you. I appreciate your testimony.
Anyone else? I think we have one more witness.
no hash here okay thank you um questions from the board
no no okay we have some other stuff mr miller we have a few things we have to decide on so
as of today uh the record uh the the record will be closed the board will discuss and have it make
a decision at next Wednesday's 9 30 executive session thank you very much thank you thank you
all thank you thank you very much I don't have further matters if I may be excused however I
will still be observing for a period the the next matter on Packer Avenue the turf club case but
the city's no longer the part that we were involved in that stage is over so I'm still
So I'm still going to be up, but I do want to observe. So thank you. Thank you. Okay. MI 2020 -001 -522 -1310 South Broad Street.
going to be but i do want to observe so thank you thank you
Vern is now being promoted to a panelist.
excuse me this is the court reporter mr chair was that one two three two
uh one two three one thank you
what are you asking about the last case that was a one yeah 1231 federal street
yes one two three one okay now we're going to hear one three one zero south broad street
good morning mr chairman morning sir please identify yourself with the records by your
full name and i'll swear you won't sure it's verne anastasio v -e -r -n last name anastasio a -n -a -s -t -a -s -i -o
1315 walnut suite 1006 philadelphia 19107 you swear a firm to tell the truth the whole truth
nothing but the truth i do thank you sir please proceed mr chairman members of the board this is
a resumption hearing uh we've already put on our evidence and testimony um we had initially
applied for a five -family dwelling and a first floor front commercial well in speaking with the
RCO we negotiated down to three family dwelling with a first floor front commercial. At the
hearing the RCO I believe asked that if you were going to approve the reduced number that there
be certain provisions agreed to then Mr. Chairman recommended that we go back and hammer out those
provisions. We were we did in fact discuss those provisions and we were in complete agreement to
sign off on any and all provisions that they had laid out, but they would not move from their
position on the three -family dwelling with the commercial space. So no, unfortunately,
they were unwilling to agree to that. So we are where we were, unfortunately, with asking for the
three -family dwelling in the first floor front. I've already put on the evidence showing the
history of a five family and a four family with the commercial first floor we've already put on
testimony that there is a physical separation between the first floor front and the first floor
rear i've also put on the all surrounding properties are multi -family and commercial
and the planning commission to my recollection supported the granting of the variance and with
With that, my site is closed, so I don't know if there's somebody here from the RCO.
I have a question for you.
You said you went from five family to three, correct?
That's correct.
And was that not what the RCO was requesting?
I thought so, but I think they don't want us to have the first floor front commercial.
We explained that it's a 1950s old -fashioned front.
We would hate to destroy it, and it's already physically separated from the rear that has a separate entrance.
So that rear unit would be one of the three family dwellings?
That's correct.
And what were the provisos?
Make sure that...
Are any of the provisos enforceable?
On your end?
On our end.
i think it was just the property management has to you know take care of the trash
there would be exterior lighting commercial trash
this is sharon saletta mr anastasio i thought my recollection was that the rco
was only agreeable to one use per floor so it would have been two residential units above a
commercial unit am i mistaken on that or i guess a three -family dwelling without the commercial
Okay, thank you.
They were questioning the use of the commercial space.
They were not sure that we would be able to fill it.
I explained to them that we have more than one interested tenant lined up already.
An old fashioned South Philly barber wants to take the first floor in front.
Okay, I think I should mention it the last hearing.
All right, anyone else to testify in this case?
yes chair we have a mr peter mr peter you can unmute yourself
hi can you hear me yes sir please identify yourself for the records by your full name
and i'll swear you in uh my name is peter zutter z -u -t -t -e -r 1440 south broad street
we're affirmed to tell the truth the whole truth nothing but the truth
i do please proceed mr zutter uh so mr chairman you are correct that um we had agreed to three
units um one unit on each floor and it would have been the applicant's decision whether he wanted
to use the first floor as a residential or a commercial space um that is what our thought
has always been um we have a i'll call it a proviso letter it's more of a an agreement letter um
outlining some some of the issues that we have including uh signage restrictions but they have
not signed that because they want to go to the four units so when i say units it's just generic
in this case it's three three residential and one commercial but we have always said that we would
support um three units whether it's two residential and one commercial or three residential
that would be up to you and and the applicant um our position on that has not changed um
so there's there's really not much more to add i want you know we don't need to go through
everything that we went through the last time okay thank you mr zutter anyone else
i don't see any more hands here so the record will be closed on mi 2020 -001 -522 -1310
south broad street a decision a discussion and decision will be rendered at next wednesday's
executive session. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you. And now go to MI 2020 -001 -532 -15.
I'm sorry. Can we wait till 10 a .m. for this one, please? Okay. Yeah, I'm sorry. You're right.
Yes, just to be on a safe side. Thank you. We'll wait till 10 o 'clock. We'll resume.
Board will be in recess until 10 a .m. Thank you. Thank you, kindly, Chair.
Calendar number MI2020 -001 -532 -1526, Pecker Avenue.
Good morning, Mr. Matteoni.
And I'm looking, is Mr. Bonney?
Well, why don't we do this?
We'll swear you in, Mr. Matteoni, wait for Mr. Bonney, and then we'll proceed.
Full name.
Michael Mattione, Federal Reserve Bank Building, oh, that's M -A -T -T -I -O -N -I, Federal Reserve Bank Building, 100 North Independence Mall, Suite 5A Northwest, Philadelphia.
We're a firm to tell the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth?
Thank you.
Mr. Bonney, would you please provide us with your full name, and I'll square you in.
Good morning.
My name is Paul Bonney.
My address is 325 Chestnut Street, Suite 1109.
Good morning.
Good morning.
Bonnie is spelled B as in boy, O -N -I.
Do you swear or affirm to tell the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth?
Yes, I do.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Gentlemen, before we begin, I believe at the last hearing, both sides had agreed or stipulated
that uh the application and the the application had it was not being considered a casino
is that correct that's what somewhere along the line of testimony a witness was brought in from
the parks casino i believe he was a security guard there and the word casino and slot machines kind
got tossed around so i'm just asking that we refrain from referring to this facility as a casino
and or the application uh as it as it's being presented be referred to as anything to do with
the casino excuse me chair this is sharon can would it be okay if i confirm that the um both
mr bonnie and mr mattione agree with where we believe we are at this point procedurally
that the original hearing was the start of the special exception hearing following that there
was a hearing on i believe february 10th where we considered the appeal against lni that was voted on
and today we are going back to the special exception hearing is that mr bonnie and mr
Mr. Bonney and Mr. Maglione, is that your understanding of where we are?
is that your understanding of where we are yeah
Yes, I just would like to make clear, though, that we realized that the zoning board last time
made a determination that this is not a casino under the zoning code.
We disagree with that.
So I wouldn't say that we would, Mr. Chair, you know, we do not stipulate to that,
But we realized that was the decision that was made. And for purposes of this hearing, we will live with that decision. But we certainly don't agree with it. And if we were to not prevail today, we would likely raise that as an issue for appeal. But I'm certainly, you know, I'm not trying to relitigate that issue today. So I realized that that was decided and we'll live with that decision for purposes of this hearing.
And if I misspoke, I apologize, but I thought that was an agreement that would have been made between you and Mr. Matteoni, that the title or the reference to this application as being part of a casino association was something that you both had stipulated to would not be pursued.
Now, if I'm wrong, I apologize.
But anyway, I think I think your recollection is is incorrect, if with all due respect, well, you know, we still believe, you know, but we still believe a variance is necessary.
But, you know, for the purposes of this hearing, we respect the board decision and we will live with it.
what we will try not to refer to this as a casino. If we do by accident, at one point or another,
we don't mean to relitigate that issue. But, you know, fair enough. Thank you. Thank you.
All right, Mr. Manione, are you up now? Mr. Chair, when we last convened, we were in the, well,
So, Jerry Fretz, the security expert for Parks, was being cross -examined by Mr. Bonney.
That's where we left off.
And then after that, I believe we have no further witnesses to present, but we have our witnesses.
We have one, two, three, four, four witnesses for cross -examination by Mr. Bonney.
Our case is done.
We've actually had two witnesses be cross -examined in full.
and now we have to finish Mr. Fretz
who was in the middle of cross -examination
and then we have four other witnesses
who have not been cross -examined yet
and then Mr. Bonney, whatever case he has to put on.
That's fine.
You concur with that, Mr. Bonney?
Yes, I do, but I would like to,
and let me give a little, a similar statement.
First of all, I would like to ask the board, if it can,
you know what time do you believe we're going to adjourn today you know give or take uh i there's
no way that's going to be dictated by council well i i how many witnesses you have and how
lengthy your testimony well i understand i'm just saying it would be great if we could finish today
oh we all agree on that and and i'm and i'm trying to get a sense of how much time we have you know
And I think last time we went to about 1 or 1 .30.
Is that feasible that we could have that much time today?
Hi, Chair.
This is Tanya.
We're looking at about 12 o 'clock.
I'm sorry, Tanya.
Nope, that's right, Chair.
Thank you kindly.
Okay, so we're looking about at 12 o 'clock stop.
All right, two hours.
Okay, well, I'll do my best.
Now, I'm not so sure, but I'll do my best.
So, Mr. Mattione, I would like to conclude my cross of Mr. Fretz.
And then I would like to do some very short cross -examination of Mr. Cullen and Mr. Shiraki.
Very brief.
Sure, they're both on today.
Okay, great.
So let's start with Mr. Fretz since he was in the middle of his testimony last time.
And then I just want to mention I have, I think, three witnesses.
One is very lengthy and the other two are sort of more medium.
and then of course you know if we get there I have I'm sure we both have closing arguments so
Mr. Fretz if he could be um Mr. Fretz good morning good morning Mr. Bonney okay nice to
talk to you again I hope you're well good morning Mr. Fretz I need to swear you in again your full
name? Gerald W. Fretz Jr. F -R -E -T -Z. You swear to tell the truth, the whole truth,
nothing but the truth? Yes, sir, I do. Thank you. Good morning, Mr. Fretz. I want to talk
Thank you. Good morning, Mr. Fretz. I want to talk very briefly about the security that you would envision at this facility.
I'll talk very briefly about
You know, I know some things are confidential and I don't want to get into those areas, but I just want to, you know, in that degree of detail or anything, but I just want to give you to give the board an overview.
So just to remind everybody, you're thinking of two or three security guards on the premises at all times that it's open?
Yes, sir. That would be my understanding.
Okay. And that's all done in conjunction with the Gaming Control Board?
Yes, sir.
Okay. So if they would allow you to have one, you may have one. If they would require you to have four, you would have four.
That's an executive decision above my pay grade, but I would recommend that we would have at least two.
Okay, but I guess what I'm saying is that this is a regulated issue and that the state has something, plays a part in this. Is it fair to say?
Yes, sir, that's correct.
Okay. There's also a lot of talk in the regulations and in the law and in the various materials about surveillance.
So I assume as a basic matter, just as a first cut, that there's video cameras situated around the facility.
That's another department, but I would suspect that they would have a number of cameras in there to to observe what's taking place.
It's typically recorded. So there is an event that we need to recall that it's that video was available.
Okay. When you say another department, I guess I thought, you know, you're the, what is your job title again?
Sir, I'm the director of security. I'm in charge of physical security. We have a director of surveillance, Mr. David Norcutt, and his expertise is in surveillance. We work together as a team here at the casino.
him. Okay. So he's a colleague of yours. You're in charge of physical security. He's in charge
of surveillance. Yes, sir. That's correct. Okay. But you have some appreciation for what he does
and vice versa. Yes, sir. Okay. So what is the purpose of this surveillance? And I'll be a little
more um forward on it is is part of the purpose of this surveillance to keep an eye on the employees
it would be to keep an eye on the employees it would be to uh ensure that there was no
cheating taking place in some manner uh and and if there was any kind of a special event
that took place it would be all recorded and it would be retrievable
Excuse me for the interruption. Mr. Fritz, or maybe this might be a question for both Mr. Fritz and Mr. Mattione's client. Are there currently surveillance cameras in Chicky and Pete's?
I personally can't answer that.
Mr. Mattione?
I do not know the answer, but Mr. Chiraphi's on, so he could answer it.
Yeah, if you can get that, and then I'll ask, would the security cameras in this off -track
bedding room be separate and apart from the surveillance cameras in Chicken Pete's?
Someone can answer that.
That would be helpful.
Thank you.
I think that I could personally answer that.
So in the casino, the surveillance video is all regulated by the Pennsylvania Gaming
Control Board.
So I don't know that the surveillance equipment that is currently in place in Chicky and Pete's and the surveillance video that we would have as regulated by the gaming board would be one in the same.
But Pete Chiraki would probably be a better individual to question.
either way though there will be surveillance cameras in this room they probably exist now
i'm assuming that's why i'd like if mr chirock is available or someone to
pizza pizza on and told me he would be on i can't see whether it's on but told me he would
be on so obviously and he's going to be a cross -exam by mr bonnie all right well i just
didn't i didn't want to belabor the point of surveillance if it's all one and the same that's
why I was asking. All right. Sorry for the interruption, Mr. Bond. That's okay. You know,
when we talked to Mr. Chiraki in a couple of minutes, you know, remind me, I'm writing down
to ask him about this. But, you know, the way I hear Mr. Fretz is that this is not just a desire
um not just a not just a desire on the part of parks but also a regulatory requirement and
you know i'm guessing those requirements come with some specifications and and uh
something like that do you know mr frets if the state of pennsylvania or the commonwealth
you know game and control board um you know has you know the ability to look at those recordings
or the right to ask for those recordings?
They do, as well as law enforcement.
Okay, thank you.
And you said special events.
Are you talking about like a party
or you're talking about a negative special event?
No, a negative special event.
Okay, an altercation or cheating or something like that.
Yes, sir.
And you said that the videos are recorded. Are you saying that they are not monitored on a real -time basis, that there's no sort of person in a booth, you know, watching for screens or something like that?
To the best of my knowledge, they're remotely visible and they're remotely observable by a live person.
But if there is a significant event or some type of criminal activity, that event would have been recorded and saved and afforded to law enforcement or the gaming board if needed.
Okay, so the person that has the various screens, are they at the parks facility in Ben Salem?
I don't have that information, sir.
Okay, thank you.
What other types of security categories are there for this facility?
So there would be a physical security presence of security officers who would ensure that no one under the age of 21 had access to that area of the property.
We utilize current equipment to detect fraudulent identifications, and security officers are aware that if someone were to give a fraudulent document or if the document was expired, it's not a valid document, they would not be allowed access to that portion of the facility.
Okay. Would you agree with me that like most things in life, that that's not 100 % perfect?
Yes, sir.
Okay. And that once in a while someone has an ID that slips by?
Yes, sir.
Okay, thank you. So is the surveillance, so these guards that are checking the IDs are
are outside the glass doors um i think we've all seen those images of the front door of the sports
book is is glad they're glass doors it has parks on it uh and i think mr you know i recall an
exchange with mr hollum and um i think during the first hearing where you know he remarked well
where does where does the guard station um isn't there some sort of podium or something and i think
Mr. Shiraki said, yeah, I think that we probably should have put that in the rendering.
So my question is, does the video surveillance, is that aimed at the, among other places,
does that, is that also aimed at the guard station?
Yes, sir.
That would be my understanding.
I don't have any other questions for this witness.
Thank you, Mr. Franson.
Thank you again for being here.
You're welcome.
I have no further questions for Mr. Frantz.
Okay, thank you. I'd like to move on to cross -examination of Mr. Cullen if he's available.
He's supposed to be.
Cullen, are you out there?
Mr. Cullen you can unmute yourself. I am unmuted. Mr. Cullen I'm sorry I had Cullen. Mr. Cullen
please identify yourself spell your full name and I'll swear you in. My name is Matthew Cullen
M -A -T -T -H -E -W Cullen C -U -L -L -E -N. Do you swear or affirm to tell the truth the whole truth
nothing but the truth? Yes I do. Good morning Mr. Cullen how are you today? I'm doing well thank
you good morning thank you thanks for being with us could you remind the board of your job title
at parks yes i am the senior vice president of interactive gaming and sports wagering for parks
and sports wagering for Parks Casino. Okay, can you, that sounds, you know, on its face to be
Casino.
sort of, that you have two halves to your, or two parts to your purview. Can you just
generally explain to us, I think sports wagering, I think we're somewhat more acquainted of given
in this hearing. Can you talk about the interactive gaming part of your world? What does that mean?
What kind of gambling is that? Well, we offer gaming on table games, slot machines, as well
as sports betting on mobile devices, as well as on computers throughout the Commonwealth.
Okay. And this is a relatively new rollout of gambling products in the Commonwealth,
not just but by other uh operators there's several several operators in the commonwealth
and the the activity uh was regulated and launched uh almost two years ago okay so it's fair to say
that now um i or anyone in the commonwealth can go onto a parks platform or app on my on their
mobile phone and gamble on my mobile phone on on the parks app on a slot machine visualization or a
blackjack game of that sort is that fair to say well not exactly you have to be 21 years of
of age in order to open an account and and fund an account you have to have an active bank account
And then you have to allow, as part of the regulations put forward by the Pennsylvania Gaming Control Board, you have to prove that you're in the Commonwealth when you're logging into your account and trying to play a game.
And that's done by some technology on the back end, which all of the operators within the state of Pennsylvania use.
They use the same tool.
That's that GL location.
That's correct.
And 21 years old, how do I prove that online?
You would put in your date of birth and the operator, in our case, ourselves, would use
third -party tools to determine that you are who you are and you live at the address that
you're stating you live at.
Okay. And why do I mean -
It's a fairly common practice of many, many companies in mobile gaming or mobile banking, same sort of thing.
Okay. I'll ask you the same question I asked Mr. Fretz that like anything, like most things in life, is it fair to say that that's not 100 % perfect?
I would imagine that there are some outliers.
you mentioned you need an active bank account why is that well you have to be able to fund
the account and then if you're in the case that you want to you want it you've won and you want
to withdraw those funds you have to be able to to put those funds into a bank account okay could
I fund it with cash if I go to the facility you can okay thank you um so thank you for the back
for the background your background um at parks uh i want to discuss the proposed operation here
um at this at this this premises here at 1526 packer um and i want to just sort of take you
and the board through a little bit of a um a walkthrough if you will and so if you'll indulge
me for a moment as i sort of ask this first question let's just say uh joe smith walks
into Chickie and Pete's you know let's say this is approved and you build this Joe Smith walks
into Chickie and Pete's with his wife and two kids and they all sit down to have dinner he sees
you know that it's a sports bar and there's games on the big screens and he sees the sports book in
the back and so let's assume he's over 21 and he walks up to the sports book and what's the first
thing that will have to happen here. He'll have to, what, sort of get past the guards. Is that
correct? Well, he would have to, he would have to provide his state -issued license, driver's
license, presumably, or identification card to prove that he's 21 and able to walk in. Okay,
so let's make it, you know, let's make this an easy case. He looks obviously like he's in his
seventies and uh he's got id that's picture perfect all the rest and he walks inside but
But he's never been there before, never been in a sports book before.
he's never been there before never been in a sports book before so he walks up to a
So he walks up to a supervisor or a manager or one of the employees who knows their business.
And he says, what are my options here?
I'd like to place a bet.
What are my different options here?
So what are the different options that would be explained to Mr. Smith?
Well, it depends, I guess, first and foremost, what sport is he going to want to bet on?
uh you know a soccer basketball there's there's you know any number of different events
throughout the time of day that he would be uh in the facility okay so thank you let's say it's a
major league baseball and there's a phillies game that's that started five minutes ago and he says
i'd like to bet on this game um and i heard you could do in play betting um how you know how can
i do it here what am i how can i yeah so he would have he would have different options on what would
be available for him to bet uh that would be in play as you stated um and and those odds would be
changing dynamically based on what's happening on the field in the game wherever that happens
to be taking place whether it's in philadelphia or elsewhere right i'm i'm guess i'm getting in
my question is really more into the mechanics of how the operation works. And so my first,
so let me ask it this way. Suppose he says to the manager, I have my smartphone with me.
Can I, can I do it on my smartphone? Well, yes. Mr. Chair, my question, what does this have to
do with with the application i mean it's it's an operation of how you go into a sports book and
bet you could do this at any sports book you could do it a live casino you could do it at
rivers casino i don't understand what the point is yeah i was letting mr bonnie go for a bit but
i think actually he may have been asking the question i was going to ask so let's take the
same scenario man and wife walk in they got kids maybe no kids but let's use paul's example they
sit down to the table he has an account uh with off -track betting he has and doesn't have to get
up and walk into that room he can make a bet from his cell phone sitting at the table the same way
he can do from his home his living room is that correct that is correct i mean i know i mean that
goes on all the time and i made this argument i think at the first hearing you don't need to have
a sports book room and go make a bet bets are being made at a bar with a whether it is a tv
monitor on or not all the time and it's any kind of gaming you want from slot machines to table games
to sports events uh and i'll consider i guess some people would consider horse racing sport
sporting event so i'm i'm not clear either where you're going with this mr bonnie well we first
have to understand what the operation is and so that's why i'm asking these questions i mean you're
saying that um you're assuming a lot of things and also i think we may be i'm not assuming it's
a reality i am not assuming it's a reality i have friends who have had accounts at race i don't
know what's called off track betting for for horse racing for years and they sit down in their home
sometimes and make bets on a saturday afternoon or whatever day of the week they choose they don't
have to get up and go to a sports book facility that is like kind of like being proposed to
chicky and pete's i mean i've said this from day one they can be sitting at the bar today
in chicky and pete's and bet on a horse and on a horse race whether they're visually seeing it or
not. It goes on constantly. Mr. Chairman, you're not letting, I need to be able to ask these
questions of these witnesses. We're getting into some of the other offerings that are offered here
at this sportsbook. You're thinking it's all one thing, and I'm thinking you may be limiting it.
I think it's a lot of things, but go ahead. Let's hear where you're going.
Okay, thank you. So let's say you have seven teller positions at the current location at 700 Parker. So those are seven stations where tellers or people can sit there. What are those people for?
those people would facilitate an over -the -counter bet uh which is different from from betting on
your phone it's where you would uh communicate um with the teller to tell them which event
and which type of bet you would like to place what amount of money you would like to bet
of money you would like to bet on that event. Um, and then that, that teller would facilitate
on that event um and then
that transaction. They would, they would key it into what we call an OTC over the counter
betting terminal, which, um, would then produce a physical ticket for that customer.
And then they would exchange and their transaction would take place where the teller would take that
money, put it into a till and present the patron with that ticket and confirm what that
patron that the bet was the bet that they wanted before they walked away? Okay. So Mr. Smith,
who may have a $20 bill in his pocket, could take out that $20 bill, walk over to the teller station,
give it to the teller, physically hand it to the teller and say, I want to place a bet on such and
such. The teller would put that bill in the drawer and generate a piece of paper that represents the
bet or describes the bet and give it to Mr. Smith. And they would agree that that was the correct bet
that he wanted to place. And then he would walk away. Is that fair to say? That's correct. That
you just described retail sports betting. Okay. Thank you. Now there's also kiosks at this
location. I believe at the current location at 700 Packer, you have 13 self -service kiosks. Do
Do you know how many kiosks you would have at this location, approximately?
I believe we were targeting in the neighborhood of 8 to 10 in that room.
And what can Mr. Smith do at that kiosk that he can't do on his phone or that he can't do at the teller?
To my knowledge, he can do exactly the same thing he can do across either one of those applications,
whether it be on his mobile phone his computer at home or wherever he happens to be uh or over
the counter so what is the why do you have these kiosks if it's just superfluous some some people
well i wouldn't i wouldn't agree with that some people some people like to just do where are we
going where are we going with i mean it's established you can bet that if they didn't
have a kiosk no kiosk they can still do the same thing i i'm trying to pull they'll do respect
well i believe this line of testimony can go on for four hours it's not i'm not gonna allow that
we're not gonna allow that it's not gonna go on for four hours i believe it's established you can
make a bet from anywhere in this on the planet if you want it's like they have a cell phone
a computer don't need a kiosk so they have kiosk what is the harm in having a kiosk well i think
we're going to uh we don't know because we're mr cullen is still telling us about them well we
don't know because there is there's nothing different about the kiosk well that may be
please try to mr cullen i'm sorry please try to answer that mr mr cullen you you said
you said a minute ago a minute ago that some people prefer the gambling on the kiosk is that
correct yes and why is that some customers i think that that requires for speculation by him
as to why people don't speculate in a certain manner well he may he's the head of sports
gambling for parks what one can assume that these kiosks are not free and that they have to invest
in them he's taking up precious space in a less less than 3 000 square foot place it's an amenity
for those who would like to use the kiosk but i will bet you talking about betting if there was
no kiosk in that room people who want to make a bet are going to figure out how to make the bet
whether it's their cell phone their computer or their bookie for that for that reason
it's not going to change anything mr chairman would you advise the casino that they're wasting
their money and having these kiosks i can't advise them on anything if they want to spend
their money it's their money it's their money thank you thank you um mr cullen i apologize
for getting loud but this questioning is just going on and on and i don't see where you're
going with? Well, it's just 1030. We already did one witness. We're now on the second.
And I think we're going at a pretty good clip here. I need to make my record. I need to try
and persuade you and the other members of the board that not to grant this approval. And I also
try and need to make my record. So we touched on, but didn't really talk about the app yet.
I want to work with the scenario where Mr. Smith doesn't have an account yet.
a an account yet this is his first time doing sports betting so if he says to the manager i want
This is his first time doing sports.
to um do it on my smartphone um i assume he will have to sign up on his on his smartphone is that
correct objection we're talking about he's talking about gambling on a smartphone and and we're
talking about a sports book application i mean why are we talking about guys i don't know i'm trying
these are relevant questions. I'm trying to get the use that is being proposed. I'm trying to
get the operation being proposed described. And my question is... Excuse me. I'm sorry, Mr. Bonney.
Can I ask, can you just explain how this relates to the criteria for grant
of a special exception for something that's been classified as assembly and entertainment?
Well, one of the questions is harm to the community. One of the harms to the community
is gambling addiction. The operation itself is a gambling parlor. And we believe that there's
a connection between putting a gambling parlor in a neighborhood and gambling addiction. And
we need to establish the facts before we make that link. So I'm trying to establish some of
the facts about how this operation works. And I think that this is all relevant to that. I'm not
asking this out of just idle curiosity. This goes to the heart of our case.
I object, Mr. Chairman. I think it's totally irrelevant about whether there's gambling on
people on their phones and everything else i've said that from day one and well i i understand
you said it from day one but we have a hearing here and so i understand paul i paul i do understand
i apologize for raising my voice i understand it's a hearing but if you're going if you're
suggesting it sounds like you're suggesting that this proposed gambling power is going to have a
negative impact and and cause people in the neighborhood to become uh addictive to gambling
and they can now walk three blocks east
and bet on anything they want in the live casino.
I don't see how you can make that argument.
Well, I don't understand how you can make that argument.
Well, Mr. Chairman, I can make the argument
and you can make your decision
and you can vote yay or nay.
And I respect that you can vote yay or nay,
but I need to be able to make that argument.
And you haven't heard the argument yet.
And that's what I'm here today to present.
I'm sorry, but that's, this is what this case is. This is a very important case to the city of Philadelphia, to Packer Park neighborhood. And I think you need to hear the evidence. You can vote however you wish.
I understand that. I understand that.
That's your power. And I apologize, Mr. Chairman, for getting a little bit frustrated sometimes also. So my apologies to you and the members of the board.
No worries. No worries.
Well, thank you. Thank you. It is nice to see everybody again, of course. So, Mr. Cullen, when Mr. Smith signs up to bet on sports on the Parks app, he has to put in the sorts of things that we talked about before.
he's got to put in his age, he's got to put in his address, he's got to put in his email address,
those sorts of things. Is that fair to say? Yes. Okay. And isn't it true that, because I did this
last night, Mr. Cullen, that once he signs up on the Park Sports app, that he's going to get an
email that says, thank you for signing up? It depends. It depends if he opts in to
to our email marketing or not. He can opt out of that and elect not to receive emails.
But the default is if you put in your email address that you get the thank you email.
Mr. Chairman, objection again. I mean, continuing on. I mean, we're talking about
online gambling here and not this application. This application is not to have online gambling.
I don't know. I'm establishing some predicate facts to get to or when I get to. I understand
that you may not understand where i'm getting to right now you may in the next question or two
understand it i need to we'll let it we'll go ahead proceed mr bonnie okay but the the default
is that when you put in your email address you get the thank you email thank you for signing up
with parks isn't that correct yes and if you and if you've opted in for other marketing messaging
We would we would send emails to you about special events, meaning sporting.
We would send emails to you about special events, meaning sporting events, if in fact
you signed up for a sports betting account.
If you're playing casino games, it would be a casino marketing message.
Well, but isn't it true if I just sign up for the sports betting that the thank you
email that I get is also going to offer me to go to the iGaming component of this sport?
Yes, of course.
Of course, cross -sell, definitely.
Cross -sell, is that what you mean?
Cross -marketing?
Yeah, it's called marketing.
I understand.
I'm a lawyer, so I don't do much marketing, but I understand that you folks do.
Is there a limit on how much Mr. Smith can put on his account when he walks into the sports book at the back of Chickie and Pete's?
I'm sorry.
I'm confused by the question.
Suppose he has a thousand dollars.
in cash. Can he give $1 ,000 in cash to the teller and say, put this on my account?
Meaning deposited into my account? Yes. Yes. Okay. Is there a limit on how much he can deposit?
In the casino or in Chickies and Pete's with the OTB PGCB license? I believe that there is.
The actual amount is escaping me, but I can get it.
well you're you're saying you can get it on another day or i'm not i understand what you're
saying when you say you can get it well i can ask you a question to uh one of my colleagues
let's move on and i want to finish up with your testimonies i think we'll we'll leave that off
for the moment um uh if if uh mr smith um signs up uh or or takes if mr smith takes the piece of
paper um he can go back to his family at the restaurant uh portion of chickies and pizza is
that correct i think you're referring to the bet slip after the transaction he's placed on an event
yes he can okay and after after he downloads the app and signs on he can also um of course
bet from the table um with his family on the in play betting is that correct yeah he could bet
with he could bet around anyone there's no no laws preventing that from happening with any
or anybody i'm not suggesting it's breaking any laws thank you um so he can bounce and he can
also bounce back and forth into the sports book as much as he wants throughout the game is that
correct uh you mean physically at chickies and pete's walk through yes security and walk up to
the counter is that yes well you can go to the counter or he could go to the kiosk if he chooses
yes thank you um but will will parks at this sports book offer or have on hand um
uh like an ipad or a tablet if mr smith wanted one of those or wanted to borrow one of those
no we're not offering that okay so he can off so he can bet with cash he can bet on the kiosk he
can bet on his own smartphone there are no other devices that he's that he could bet on well i
guess he could bring his own ipad in if he wanted to and connect to the wi -fi or or to uh you know
if he has uh if he has cellular data on it okay well is there a chickies and peats if they want
to allow that which i would assume they would there's nothing nothing wrong with that does
parks have its own um proprietary wi -fi inside will parks have its own proprietary wi -fi
inside of chickies and peats not available to the public i'm not i'm not sure what you mean
well we we have to all of the all of those systems um are connected to the internet
kiosks our otc terminals uh just just like everything these days is connected to the
internet sir will parks have a wi -fi that um goes through the building of chickies and peeps
we will have internet connectivity not available to the general public when you say general public
It'll be a closed system so that we can power all of our equipment within the sports book.
Okay, but Joe Smith, who has just signed up for an account, and he's just signed up, he's just downloaded the app on his smartphone, can he access that Parks Wi -Fi?
Okay, so it's for Parks employees only, basically.
Well, no, it's for Parks equipment. It's so that we can run the sports book.
Excuse me, this is Sharon Seletik.
And Mr. Bonny, I'm sorry to interrupt,
but this seems very far removed
This seems very far removed from the kinds of broader general impacts that would be considered in a special exception case.
from the kinds of broader general...
I mean, if you are arguing that the people who choose to use this facility, who choose to go there and to gamble, that it presents a danger to them, is that really something that can be considered in a special exception case?
isn't the decision to allow that rather preempted by state law that has made gambling legal um
no can we focus on what how this will affect the broader community yes and that is true but i don't
think that um once you're i think the nature of an addiction is that once you become addicted
you don't have the choice that's the problem excuse me but wouldn't that be the same argument
that could be made that bars shouldn't be permitted or establishments that offer alcohol shouldn't be
permitted because of the potential for people to become addicted to alcohol. Fast food restaurants
shouldn't be permitted because of the health hazards associated with eating fast food.
Well, it's, it just seems as though you're focusing on something much narrower than that,
which should be considered in a special exception case.
But, Ms. Zoletta, you're making my point. An alcoholic bar, a bar that serves alcohol, is allowed by Wright at this location, or he has a variance for it.
And a takeout restaurant for fast food is allowed by Wright wherever it exists, or they've gotten through the variance or this special exception process.
So that's the question. You can't start it by answering the question. You have to first ask the question, is this facility harmful to the neighborhood? That is what the legislature and the city council is asking you to do. It is not just asking you to check off the seven boxes. Is it going to cause traffic? Is it going to cause a fire hazard? It is also asking you, this zoning board, to make sure that this facility doesn't cause harm to the neighborhood.
No, that is not the standard for a special exception. The standard is, will this cause harm beyond what could normally be expected from an assembly and entertainment use?
I agree. And that's what I'm here today to talk about. And so I'm going to be talking about that, you know, in my argument. And I agree with you. I agree with you. And that's what we're establishing.
so um let me just look over my notes i don't think i have anything more for mr cullen at this time
oh you mentioned marketing um i assume you have a healthy marketing um uh unit or department at
parks casino we have a marketing department i i would i would argue that our marketing budget is
much much smaller than that of our competitors in the market today okay but you you market and
advertise on radio and print what does this have to do with the application i i i apologize for
allowing this to continue i keep trying to to get to the point where where the harm is being
done to the community i your your objection system well will will parks market this facility
objection really
will parks market this
we'll allow him to answer that question i would imagine we would market it in a manner that we
market our south philadelphia location today okay i have no further questions for this witness
mr marionne you have any questions for your witness no further questions from the thank you
thank you um i'd like to uh call mr shiraki to the stand please and thank you mr cullen have a
good day thank you
mr shiraki if you can raise your hand
and matt cullen please mute yourself
and mr peter is ready yeah mr chiroki please identify yourself with the record
spell your last name i'll swear you win my name's peter chiroki
i apologize i interrupted you please spell your last name c -i -a -r -r -o -c -c -h -i
You swear or firm to tell the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth?
Do you swear or affirm to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?
I do, Mr. Chairman.
I do, Mr. Chairman.
Thank you.
Mr. Bonney?
Okay, sir.
Hello, Vice Chairman, and hello, Mr. Marcioni and Mr. Bonney.
Good morning to you.
Good morning to you, too, sir.
Do us a favor and pronounce your last name one more time.
It's Cherokee, but a lot of people say Cherokee because of the TV personality.
His name was Cherokee, same spelling.
It's different ways that the family says it.
Right, but that did jump out at me, so I'll try and do it correctly. As someone who has an unusual last name, I hear Mr.
Okay, well, he's the same guy, so let's move on.
Mr. Shiraki, you submitted a petition of many letters to this board, or your team submitted many letters to this board of people who are supportive of this endeavor. Are you familiar with that?
I'm not familiar with the exact letters. I didn't read them all, but I am familiar that they did submit them.
okay how did you go about getting those letters
staff members ask neighbors we have a lot of staff i think i said in my last testimony
how many people worked from that zip code in the area and uh that's some of the ways we did it
okay so is it is i'm sorry go ahead okay that's fine okay so is it fair to say that
that a number of the people
that sign those letters
are employees of your organization?
No, not necessarily.
They're neighbors of the employees also.
But they're all,
and they're also employees.
I don't know.
Let me ask the question.
I think this is what he's asking you, Pete.
Any of those petitions
that were circulated,
were they circulated by employees of yours?
Thank you.
are any of the people who signed um is it fair to say that some of the people who signed it
are relatives of yours yes yes yes i have a lot of relatives that live in that neighborhood
um this support letter from uh kathy masciatro at 3511 prima court she's your first cousin is
that correct? That is correct. Can we stipulate, Mr. Bonney, we'll stipulate that some of the
signatures are either employees or relatives of Mr. Turok. I have no further questions. Thank you.
I have no questions, Mr. Chairman. Thank you. Next witness. Okay. Well, thank you. And I'd like to
call my first witness. It's going to be at some length, but this is the most lengthy witness we
have. So they're not all going to be like this. But my first witness is Mr. Les Bernal, B -E -R -N -A -L.
If he can be found and promoted to the panel, I would appreciate it.
He would just have to raise his hand and he's available chair.
Good morning, sir.
Please identify yourself.
Spell your first and last name and I'll swear you in.
Good morning.
My name is Les Bernal, B -E -R -N -A -L.
The first name is L -E -S, correct?
Do you swear or affirm to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?
Thank you.
Please proceed, Mr. Barney.
Okay, thank you.
Mr. Bernal, good morning.
Thank you for being here.
If you can describe your, you know, tell the board your, what is your job?
I am the national director of Stop Predatory Gambling, which is a national 501c3 nonprofit based in Washington, D .C.
And I'm going to share my screen, if that's okay.
Let's see here.
Share.
Can people see our exhibit package on the screen?
i'm going to assume that's a yes yeah okay and i'm going to show you exhibit a which is
the curriculum vitae of mr burnell i'm just going to walk the board through it quickly
you graduated college in 91 you have a master's of public administration 2000
you've been the executive director of stop predatory gambling since 2008
late. You were chief of staff for a Massachusetts state senator. You worked on campaign.
You are chief of staff for a Massachusetts state senator.
You worked on campaigns before that.
You chaired the city planning board in a town in Massachusetts for a number of years in the late 90s and early 2000s.
You've testified before the U .S. Congress.
Is it fair to say, Mr. Burnell, that you've also testified in front of state legislatures and city councils in this country?
If you've been quoted and cited more than 600 times in newspapers and magazines of the
highest order in this country, is that correct?
And same thing, you've appeared on national TV and radio of the highest order of news
outlets in this country.
Is that correct?
You were honored by a newspaper.
You also have some civic and educational positions, including many years as a high school, as a
basketball coach, is that correct? Yes. Thank you very much. I want to go over some work that
you've done to prepare for this testimony. You've looked at the park's presentation materials?
Yes, I have. You've talked to the president of the neighborhood group? Yes, I have. You've
looked at Packer Park neighborhood on Google Maps and Google Street View? Yes, I have. Is it fair
to say that you've been to philadelphia a fair number of times yeah i've been to philadelphia
many times in my life and i have family who lives in the area although i haven't been to this
specific part of south philadelphia before okay same with chickies and pete's you've never been
to this location before is that correct that's correct but i've looked i've looked at chickies
and pete's online i've visited their website and i've watched the esbn story about the sports
restaurant. And obviously, it's an impressive place and they have an impressive business.
Thank you. Let's dive into your testimony, Mr. Burnell.
Talk to us at a very high level, just a few words about a gambling addiction or problem
gambling. Also, if you could sort of define your terms, what do you mean when you use,
you know, either of those terms? Excuse me, this is Sharon.
Before your answer. Yep, Sharon, go ahead.
I'm sorry. Mr. Bonney, you're obviously offering him as a witness.
Could you narrow what his specific area of expertise is?
And also, maybe if you could question him with regard to whether he has ever any of his testimony had to do with land use matters or zoning specifically.
well uh he's going to talk about the link between sports gambling and gambling addiction
and the threat and the harm that this uh facility will pose to the neighborhood that's what he's
here to talk about and now there's some background information because he's gotta
you know talk about what is gambling addiction and um and what is in play betting and and we
have some we have some studies to beyond mr i'm sorry yeah i have shower and finish
mr bonnie would it work to simply stipulate that this and all gambling facilities
uh carry the risk of gambling addiction for some people um if we agree to that can you get on to
the is it really necessary to have this testimony i think it is i think it is because i think the
nature of this type of sports gambling is um more dangerous than other forms of gambling and we'd
like to get that into the record this as far as nothing not about the specific location but simply
this specific offering this specific type of gambling is that what you're saying yes which
is available but but even if this facility never got approved but but i would say i would say miss
Soletta, you know, that this facility is proposed for this particular location is part of our argument about why it's so dangerous.
Is there an argument that this is preempted by the state, which obviously considered all of these factors at the point that they made this type of gambling legal?
No, because they don't have, because, well, for a number of reasons. But first of all, the parks does not have approval yet from the state to be at this location. They will be, you know, they will probably, if they will probably be seeking that at some point, but they don't have it at this, at this point.
So, you know, it's a factual matter.
So, you know, it's a factual matter. The state has not approved this location.
The state has approved the sports book, though. The state has approved the sports book, and the city council, by making this a special exception, has conditionally approved it as well.
So, at this location, and part of what we have to do is go through an application process, but sports gambling and sports books and race books are legal in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania.
I agree. The question is, does it meet the standards for a special exception at this location? I'm not trying to, we're not trying to prohibit sports gambling in the Commonwealth. We're not even trying to prohibit sports gambling in Philadelphia.
we're trying to hit and we're not trying to prohibit people from doing it on their phone
mr chairman um at their homes um or while they're sitting in the library or whatever
um all we're doing is trying to prevent a bricks and mortar um zoning application that seeks to
uh install a physical establishment at in a c1 district um where the city council has said
you have to go through certain hoops you have to go through certain tests and questions and it's
those questions that we're going to be those arguments that we're going to be making here
today. We're squarely within the rubric of the special exception. Mr. Mattione laid it out,
I think, in a, he touched on it in his memo that he submitted, but everybody knows that we have
the opportunity and the burden to show that this is worse than the typical assembly and
entertainment. That's what we're here to do. We think, I don't, I guess I should,
I keep interrupting you, Chair. I apologize.
Mr. Bonney, if we're accepting that it is a special exception for an assembly and entertainment use, isn't your burden then to show that there is something about this location that makes it have more of a negative impact than this use would generally have?
it's not it's not then a a sports gambling what is it about this location that makes it
um more detrimental here than it would be at another location well i i i you know i've been
asked these my my case has been interrupted with these questions now for a good 10 minutes
and it's important I understand I am I am here you're putting on a witness who's going to talk
about the evils of gambling and how this is going to have a negative impact on the neighborhood of
Packer Park right Mr. Brunel you said that you're familiar you uh was it the google map
have you been physically down the Chickie and Pete's no I to restate what I said at the beginning
I have not physically been to this Chickie and Pete's location.
Have you been anywhere close to the Chickie and Pete's location?
He hasn't been there.
He's telling you.
I'm asking, I'm asking Mr. Brunel.
In the last year, I've not physically been close to that Chickie and Pete's location.
Are you aware of the casino that is within three blocks of Chickie and Pete's?
And do you know if there was ever any objection to that casino being placed at that location?
uh i'm i'm only aware of this i've been involved with this proposal for it's going into this
residential heavily densely populated neighborhood so you're not familiar with the live casino as a
location correct and and i'm familiar with all the locations and i'm familiar with all the locations
in philadelphia let me finish and the proximity of live casino to residential community
are you familiar with that could you please repeat the question i didn't understand the
question are you are you familiar with the live casinos proximity to a residential community
yes and how does that differentiate from the proposed site at chickie and peach from
in its proximity to residential community
well i think we're going to speak to that i'll defer to attorney bonnie if he wants me to
get into all that now if he wants to go through why we're making the case why this is different
than the other proposals in philadelphia making the question well mr chairman that was not a
special exception case i didn't say it was i'm just curious because it's addiction and it's
close proximity to residents and the residents in Packer Park are all going to become addicted
And the residents in Packer Park are all going to become addicted gamblers because of the proximity between Chickie and Pete's and the residential community.
gamblers because of the proximity.
But it doesn't apply to the other side of Broad Street, the people in the stadium district and their proximity to a live casino.
I don't understand your point.
I didn't think you would.
Okay, no worries.
No, no.
Mr. Bonney, I have to interrupt.
I have a question.
What is it about the people in Packer Park who, what you're really saying is that this
isn't a neighborhood and they are more inclined to become addicted?
I'm not saying that.
That's what it sounds like you're saying.
No, I'm not saying that.
I think people in Packer Park have the same DNA and life history as people all over the
Okay, thank you.
Then why are we here?
why are we having this argument can i make a suggestion can i put on my case first and then
you can beat me up well you have been okay mr bonnie but the way it works is we do get an
opportunity to ask questions i understand that but i would i think we all really want to try
and finish today and if i can't finish we're going to finish today okay well proceed
Thank you. I appreciate it. I don't mind getting beat up. You know that.
But proceed, please. We've got to move on.
Oh, OK. I have to. I'm sorry. I'm sorry to laugh, Ms. Tenere. I'm happy to proceed. I'm just.
Mr. Burnell, what is gambling addiction and how do you define it?
So it's defined as an uncontrollable urge to keep gambling despite the toll that it's taking on your life.
Okay. And do you make a distinction between problem gambling and gambling addiction?
We do. We use the term gambling addiction because it involves the whole, anyone who gets consumed with gambling, we consider an addicted gambler.
Okay. So when you use the term gambling addiction, you're talking about people who aren't necessarily clinically diagnosed with the disorder also. Is that correct?
Yes. It runs the spectrum of people who are, you know, you're involved in kind of a part, you know, you're either at risk for being a gambling addiction or you're immersed in gambling addiction.
Okay. What are some of the harms to the person associated with gambling addiction?
So life -changing financial losses, which lead to bankruptcy, which those types of situations
and often leads to family, incredible family dysfunction in the form of divorce and harm
to other family relationships, and also can lead to significant individual depression.
And more importantly than any other addiction in society, it leads to attempted suicide.
Is it a recognized mental disorder?
Yes, it's a disorder in the DSM -5.
Okay. I'm going to show you this section of the DSM -5. What is the DSM -5?
So the DSM -5 is known as a Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders.
It's a publication by the American Psychiatric Association for the Classification of Mental Disorders.
It's used by clinicians and researchers, drug regulatory agencies, insurance companies, pharmaceutical companies, the legal system, and policymakers, and it recognizes the Bible pretty much as anyone involved with mental disorders.
Okay, so looking at this first page of Exhibit B, there's nine behaviors, and the American Psychiatric Association has determined that if you have four to five of them, if you show four to five of them, you have a mild case of gambling disorder, all the way to if you have eight or nine of them, you have a severe case of gambling disorder. Is that correct?
Okay, so also this first note that they have that I highlighted after the description of the disorder itself says, and this sort of goes to Ms. Zuleta's question about fast food places that some people overindulge in.
And this note says, although some behavioral conditions that do not involve ingestion of substances have similarities to substance -related disorders, only one disorder, gambling disorder, has sufficient data to be included in this section.
So, you know, people say they are addicted to the Internet. People say they're addicted to shopping. But none of those are in the DSM -5, right?
the only non -substance -related disorder.
non -substance related disorder. So other than alcohol and drugs and nicotine,
gambling is the only other one in the DSM -5. Yes, that's correct. Okay. So this, a few pages
here, I'm not going to go into, I'm not going to waste time to go into this. The board can read
this if it wishes, but this talks about one of the diagnostic features about chasing losses,
that you have to go back and try and chase your losses. And that also involves many instances of
deceit, including covering up behaviors such as forgery and fraud. And does that resonate with
you in the work that you've done over the years. Yes. Okay. The other thing that says up to half
individuals in treatment have suicidal ideation, 17 % have attempted suicide. You would agree that
that's a problem in this area? A huge problem. There's also subcategories. So while people talk
about how many people in society may have gambling addiction, the DSM -5 says that, well, you can
break it down into subgroups. For instance, the prevalence of gambling disorders are higher among
African -Americans than among European -Americans. Does that resonate with your work? Yes. All right,
let's keep going. Tell us about sports betting. What is the modern sports betting model?
So the modern sports betting model is really central, essentially based on this concept of
in -play betting where you literally are betting on events constantly throughout the course of a
game it's betting on every pitch in a Phillies game you know is Joel Embiid going to make this
free throw you know it's it's repetitive and continuous and and that's what makes it so
right for people to get addicted to it because it's constant and continuous throughout the
entire game. Okay. Um, I'm showing you an exhibit from a recent study. Um, we can talk about this
study very briefly. Um, but it talks about the prevalence of problem gambling across gambling
types. Um, and as you can, as you can see, we've circled sports betting, um, where, uh,
And people who've engaged in sports betting over the past year, 5 .7 of them have reported problem gambling behavior. And as you can see, that number is on the high end when it's compared to, well, the top line is all gambling.
So all gambling together had about 2 .3 % of the people reporting symptoms.
And, you know, you see the various categories here, but certainly 5 .7 is on the high end.
Horse racing is also on the high end.
But tell us a little bit about this study.
What is this?
Who did this study and what do you make of it?
It was a study commissioned by the Commonwealth of Massachusetts a few years back.
And I personally don't think the study was targeted enough in terms of who they surveyed.
I think the numbers are even worse than what they captured.
But nonetheless, I do agree with the main point of table 11.
And the main point being that comparatively speaking, the prevalence of problem gamblers
in sports betting is higher than many other forms of feedback. Is that correct? Okay.
And why is that? You've read a lot of literature. We have some literature to present to the board
here. But if you can give us an overview of why is that? What is it about sports betting
that it poses such harm?
Yeah, well, it's about a target, definitely a younger demographic. It's young men under the age of 35 or so, the peer pressure aspect to this. And that's why doing it in a sports bar is very appealing in its distinction between doing it online in your home.
It's having that shared experience watching the sporting event where you're placing in -play wagers is a major part of it.
So that social environment is key, as well as the environment of being, you know, around alcohol.
So the mixture of alcohol, peer pressure, and kind of that, you know, young and male in that sports bar environment is really ripe for people to get caught up in the highly addictive aspect of sports gambling.
Okay. Did you mention bonuses and promotions? I'm sorry if you didn't.
Okay. Did you mention bonuses and promotions? I'm sorry if you didn't. I don't know.
Actually, I did not. The whole concept of how this is marketed, the bonuses and promotion is
a huge factor that leads people to get hooked. So they use things like cash back offers or
something called a risk -free bet, which is a gambling marketing practice that makes people
feel better about losing uh because it offers them a cash return for part of your wager okay
it contributes to the perception that you can't lose from gambling and and that perception
actually particularly harmful to kids all right well let's keep going here um uh so uh let me just
here um uh is this is from the parks um website this is odds boost is this one of the boost your
winnings is this one of the bonuses and promotions is this that's a good example okay and on the
next page is um what's called up to 500 risk free bet is this another good example yes okay
um and you know is it a risk -free bet no it's it's a gimmick
okay and uh how do you know that um well you you it's not you you don't you don't get that
500 back you have to wager that 500 you know if you have to put matching funds into it you look
at the fine print of it it shows you that it's a gimmick okay thank you let's move on uh thank
you for that testimony. You know, are there any, so you're a, you're a, and I should mention for
the board, you know, I'm, I'm on your board. So, you know, and I, you know, I know your organization
well, but are there other organizations that are sounding the alarm about sports betting?
Yes, there are several. And one worth mentioning is the National Council on Problem Gambling.
All right. Tell me about the National Council on Problem Gambling. Who are they and why do you point them out?
Yeah, so I will say it's not often that I will point to the National Council on Problem Gambling.
We disagree on funding. They're largely funded by the gambling industry.
And so, you know, usually much of their messaging will reinforce the status quo in terms of what's happening in our country when it comes to gambling addiction.
uh so they usually be pretty tame about calling out some of the business practices so that being
said when it comes to commercialized sports betting the national council on problem gambling
has been pretty out in front on this they've been hammering this they've really been sounding the
alarm about what a major issue this is okay so um this is uh exhibit d is a something called an
executive summary that's on the National Council for Problem Gambling website, and it's called
a Review of Sports Wagering and Gambling Addiction Studies. Correct me if I'm wrong, but a couple
years ago, some researchers did a literature review, and they looked at about 140 different
studies on sports betting, and they tried to pull together all the available data when it comes to
gambling addiction um and that the national council for problem gambling put this put together
this executive summary um that summarizes that that study that was done that literature
review study that was done um is that correct yes okay and in this executive summary and i'm
going to submit the study itself um for the record but for this executive summary that's put out by
the national council as you can see in this first highlighted their first takeaway was that the rate
of gambling problems among sports bettors is at least twice as high as among gamblers in general
is that did i read that correctly yes and then about the concerns about modern sports gambling
their second concern is live in play betting that sports gamblers can bet during the game
on hundreds and potentially thousands of discrete events. This shortens the lag time between bet
and reward, increasing the speed and frequency of gambling, which increases the risk of problematic
behavior. Is that correct? Yes. I'm going to jump to the next page. Marketing. Aggressive promotions
in all forms of marketing and advertising make it more difficult for sports bettors who are trying
to curtail their gambling ads that emphasize free play tout the ease of placing a bet and offer
risk -free bonuses are particularly problematic is that correct yes and then i'll just leave you with
this last sentence here it says looking ahead sports gambling is growing rapidly with significant
Sports gambling is growing rapidly with significant potential to create or worsen gambling problems.
potential to create or
or what?
Is that correct?
Okay, thank you.
There's also, you've given me some news articles from gambling trade magazines.
This one is called U .S. Bets, Exhibit F.
And the title of this article from last year says, In Play Betting, More Dangerous for Problem
Gambling, Experts Warn. Is that correct? Yes. Okay. And then this other one is from the online
poker report of all places from this year, just a month ago. And it's titled, Sports Betting is
Quickly Becoming a Favorite Pastime in America, But the National Council for Problem Gambling
sees it as a high risk um so this is just this is just you telling us that uh the national council
is sounding the alarm on this is that correct yes and as and just to just to clarify what you're
saying is the national council is funded in large part by the gambling industry is that correct
that's correct and all how about their board of directors and advisory board do they have casino
much of their board it also consists of people from the gambling industry all right thank you
very much um let's talk about the mechanics let's keep going we're almost we're getting
through your testimony very nicely i'm happy with the time we're making let's talk about the
mechanics how does the industry offer sports betting so it's they offer online and on your
mobile phone uh second way is they get offered at a casino sports book and now you're starting to
see in extreme proposals, extreme proposals like this one at Chickie and Pete's where a sports book
is being added to sports bars and restaurants. And what's the rationale for adding it to sports
bars and sports restaurants? Well, kind of, you know, to touch on what we just said earlier, that
it's the same, what makes it addictive to people, young guys, you know, usually on the age of 35 is
the target demographic, the peer pressure aspect, you know, being around in that sport, in that
environment, encourages people to wager constantly, relentlessly, and then with a combination of
alcohol involved as well, encourages people to make riskier financial decisions and really lose
track of how much they're losing. You know, no one's a good decision maker when they're
intoxicated. Mr. Burnell, I need to interrupt. Given that line of question, is it safe to say
that if the board were to deny the sports book at Chicky and Pete's that some of those same issues
that you're talked about alcohol interaction watching a game at a bar people are going to
gamble anyway this isn't going to prevent those you got to the exhibit that is up now a young
man sitting in with a bear in his hand I assume that's to make the point that he's drinking and
betting does it go away well again mr chairman your question goes to the kind of the heart i
guess of this matter is this is about putting a very you know dangerous thing for folks that
you're articulating well closer to a heavily residentially populated neighborhood you know
that that's the question is you're assuming that's the issue but they're assuming that the majority
of the people, if not all of the people who would be using this sport book facility live
in the neighborhood. I would venture to say that Chickie and Pete, the one on Packer Avenue
at least, its customer base are drawn from the region, not just Packer Park. Probably
more people who don't live in Packer Park frequent Chickie and Pete than people who
do live there. Mr. Chairman, if I read the park's presentation materials and I recall
that their presentation said that they expect to draw their base from within a mile of that facility.
And Mr. Chairman, even the memorandum that Mr. Mattiani submitted recently to the board
highlights the fact that parks is, that the market for this is the nearby neighborhood.
That's who the target market is.
I think that Parks admitted.
The same way that the nearby casino operates?
Well, I'm not here to speak about that.
I know, but there is a casino within three blocks of chicken pizza.
Look, I'll answer your question.
I'll make a stipulation for you if that would help things out, Mr. Chairman.
Of course, if you deny this special exception and this facility does not come to fruition, some people in the neighborhood will, of course, do sports betting through other ways.
And of course, if you deny this special exception
and this facility,
We agree with that.
They will go to the live casino.
They will do it at home.
They will go to a bar in New Jersey.
Of course, some will.
um we think that it's pretty clear that not all of them will um and you know you're making the
case that all of them will i don't think that's fair to say this is a neighborhood shopping center
you're going to hear testimony uh from another witness that this is right next to a bakery
and a dry cleaning place and a nail salon um and you know you can't if you're in packer park you're
not going to be able to avoid um this facility because just don't go in i understand that don't
go in that's all that's simple that's out of heart just don't go in i understand that and
it's a lot easier not to go in if it's if it's uh farther away and i think lots away okay well
well uh we're trying not to make matters worse here in packard park mr chairman we're not saying
everything's perfect we don't wish that casino was there um a few blocks away but we're trying
not to bring it closer and that's what parks is trying to do parks is trying to be amidst our
neighborhood in our neighborhood shopping center and so the you know those are the facts so mr
burnell let's let's keep going uh we're at 11 30 now um but uh i don't know if we'll be able to
finish now but uh um uh so bricks as you heard mr cullen say and as you know that they're also
offering um sports betting to people who want to pay in cash uh why is that service being offered
so it's for people who don't have credit cards and uh and people who don't want their spouses
oftentimes to see the commercialized gambling charges on their credit card statement by the
witness as to why parks is operating the way that it is speculation he doesn't work for parks he
doesn't know how parts operates and doesn't know why did they accept the payments that they accept
correct objection sustained objection sustained mr bernauer you're talking about the industry in
general is that correct the question that i understood to be was just not specific to parks
but the bricks and bricks and mortar sportsbook business model accepts cash for people so they
People who don't have credit cards and for those who have spouses or other family members can't see the gambling charges on the credit card statement.
Would you agree with me that it is inarguable that if someone does not have a credit card and they only have cash and that they wish to gamble on sports, that the sports book here in Chickie's and Pete's would allow them to do that in their neighborhood when they otherwise would not have an option to do that?
yes objection again go ahead what's the objection mike it's you're speculating he's speculating as
to how these people are going to gamble at at this facility i i posed the hypothetical and i think
it's clear so um you're all i don't get that well look we can go over it again we can we can do a
million hypotheticals on both sides of the argument and it just stick to the facts well
Gambling can be an addiction. It can be an addiction. Some people gamble. Some people
don't. Some people choose to gamble a lot. Some people choose to not gamble at all or
gamble a little bit. It's a personal choice.
Do you think people choose to become addicted?
Depends on how much you want to gamble. I mean, it's a serious question.
Well, do people choose to be addicted to drinking?
Well, I asked you that question, too.
Do they choose that?
Well, maybe they do.
Some people like to eat a lot.
Some people like to drink a lot.
You may call it an addiction.
Some people may just say it's not.
They like to drink more than others.
I'm still trying to figure.
I still want to get to the heart of this.
I'm trying to.
The harm that it's going to do to the immediate neighborhood.
Believe me, I'm trying to put on my case.
I think we can stipulate that there are problem gamblers
and problem drinkers and problem a lot of things in this world that there are organizations that
have been pointing that out to the public for years with all good intentions. And people are
going to make a decision whether they want to get off of drugs or stay on them or get off of
or get off of not drink as much and not become an alcoholic or become an
not drink as much and not become an alcoholic or become an alcoholic.
alcoholic. People make choices. This is about choice.
People walk, people walk up to that newsstand,
just outside picking chicken and pizza and buy a hundred dollars worth of
lottery tickets. It's just, it is what it is. I'm not,
I'm not condoning it. It's a fact.
Why aren't you condoning it?
I said I'm not condoning it. Oh, I'm sorry.
I'm not condoning it, but that's a fact.
CVS, 11th and Washington Avenue, I'm sure other CVSs, have a kiosk with lottery tickets.
You can bet on 50 different types of lottery tickets.
There's no one there saying to that person, are you 21 years old?
Show me your ID.
A 10 -year -old kid can go into that place.
We've got to get rid of the lottery in this state.
people become addicted to buying lottery tickets and and there and then we should do away with
that and and as part of the reason that that's problem for that kid is that it's so convenient
in his neighborhood at that cbs they're not going to get into chicky and peach unless they're 21
i'm sticking with your i'm sticking with your hypothetical about the kid
who's doing underage lottery tickets i don't think it's a hypothetical but that's that's my
opinion all right well you think it's happening i think under 21 year old kids buy him i could be
wrong it could be wrong okay um let's keep going um what do you make of the fact mr burnell
that this proposal for a sports book is that it should be located inside of a restaurant
that allows kids and that this restaurant has an interactive video game component called
play to on the premises. What do you make of that? Yeah, I think this proposal for this neighborhood
is as extreme as anything I've seen in the country. The idea that you have an interactive
video game component on this site where the future of the commercialized gambling industry,
particularly online, is heading towards things like e -sports betting, which means wagering on
video games but but my my question my question mr burnell is that what do you make of the fact
that there are children inside of chickies and pete's a lot of children yeah again i think it's
outrageous i think it's an example of how extreme this proposal is that you're gonna have kids
exposed to and being normalized to commercialized gambling sports gambling you know when they're
going out to you know what is you know chickie and pete's brands itself as philadelphia sports
headquarters so if you're a passionate sports fan growing up as a kid you know like you're going to
be exposed to commercialized betting if you're going to sports betting if you're going to your
favorite sports restaurant objection the casino is a separate facility inside the the restaurant
it is not where you walk in and everybody sits there and gambles and that testimony was clear
not unlike not unlike a casino where people take their families the kids are not allowed on the
casino floor but they're off to the side of the casino floor in restaurants what's the difference
you think that's a good thing mr chairman i forget what i whether i think it's a good thing
i'm just you're making the case that this is a this is something that's going to encourage young
people then parents should not take their kids to casinos right and i bet you the same people
who are opposed to this go to casinos and take their families
you think that people going to chicken and peats for crab fries and hamburgers are the same people
going to taking their kids to casinos that's your that's your position thank you let's let's keep
going mr um burnell um will this increase problem gambling in this neighborhood absolutely i don't
think that objection i don't think that mr burnell has been been well speculation and i don't think
he's a licensed clinician or a licensed psychologist we're getting it who's appropriate
objection sustained objection sustained mr mr burnell why do you tell us the basis for your
statement because gambling addiction increases with proximity the more accessible it is and the
closer you are to it the more you suffer from gambling addiction it is speculation and again
as i've been saying for the last two hearings you don't need to go to chicky and pete's you can use
your cell phone anywhere anytime you want or your house phone if you still have one to make it back
i do open an account anywhere you want and you can use that account to gamble no matter where
you are any time of the day how about the frequency mr burnell is that a problem yeah again
Yeah, again, by putting in it closer to neighborhoods, the more frequent the commercialized gambling and people are participating in it, the more people get addicted to it.
by putting it closer to neighborhoods the more frequent the commercialized gambling
It's a lot easier to get swept up into it.
I want to show for the board.
Let me see here.
um this study in exhibit g it says the relationship between in -play betting and
gambling problems in australian context prohibited online in -play betting and the
takeaway here that i highlighted is that those who bet in play had higher problem gambling
severity scores than those who did not i'm also going and this thank you for this mr
For now, I'm also going to show you this next one, which says in play betting, sports broad class and gambling severity, a survey of Spanish sports bettors on the risks of betting on sport while watching it.
And this talks about gambling severity, sports watching, consumption of sports as an escape, and of course, alcohol while watching sports.
and i'll leave this for the board's perusal about the problems of sports gamblings in these
sorts of environments um let's finish out your testimony um mr burnell you know they're just
moving this 0 .8 miles you know so the so the uh argument would go what's so wrong if they're
moving it just 0 .8 miles. Again, I've looked at the lay of the land in this neighborhood and
its current location and the existing location there in the stadium district. Now you're moving
it into a neighborhood strip shopping center. You couldn't be getting deeper into a residential
neighborhood. We're involved across the country. We have not seen a proposal like this where you're
building something like this facility in a residential neighborhood, you know, in a family
restaurant that has kids and a place that brands itself as Philadelphia's sports headquarters.
Okay. My last question or two is, you've heard that Mr. Cullen say that they're going to cross
market or market or cross sell, I think his phrasing was, other gambling products by parks.
um what how does that strike you yeah i think you know parks uses as an opportunity
intensely to market online gambling to patrons coming in here and others also visits to their
parks facility in and ben salem you're essentially opening up a you know a parks outpost
outpost in packer park what was your phrase there outpost yeah you gotta you're opening up a parks
outpost in packer park at this location okay and that's going to be then they're going to cross
and they're going to cross sell their other products and okay uh i think that's all i have
for mr burnell let me look at my exhibits and uh mr mattione if you have any cross -examination
where i just have i just have a couple of questions for mr barnell
burnell i'm sorry mr burnell isn't it true that you are not a licensed addiction clinician
do you say the question one more time sir isn't it true that you are not a licensed
addiction clinician isn't it true yes
and isn't it true that all these studies you talk about they're largely talking about online
gambling? I mean, isn't online gambling a much greater addictive, highly addictive problem than
in -person gambling? No, that's not true. On exhibit C, it had 18 .2 % for online gambling and
7 % for in -person sports gambling. So I think your own documents belie what you just said.
i think sports gambling as a as a form of gambling is more addictive than other forms
of commercialized gambling you know it's similar to slot machines and that type of experience
it is no question a highly addictive form of gambling compared to other forms of gambling
and any independent uh gambling researcher would would affirm that
online gambling that's speculation on your part strike that answer uh online gambling though is
much more addictive according to your own documents here yes we're not saying that it's
he's the witness not you questions for mr burnell yeah
The question is for Mr. Brunel.
I have one.
Is the question, just repeat, is your question, is online gambling more addictive than brick and mortar types of gambling?
And there are other forms of gambling that are more addictive than sports gambling, such as the lottery and the horse race.
Is that correct?
it depends on the lottery game no that's not correct daily games
no here says 7 and it says 5 .7 for sports betting so for problem games anyway I have
no further questions for this witness Mr. Chairman so um sir you're not a licensed
addictions counselor or expert well i think the answer would be i'm not a license if the
question is am i a licensed counselor the answer is no if you're asking me am i you know i think
my cv references in terms of the credentials that we've had at my myself as a national director in
our organization. If you're asking me if I'm considered an expert on the issues around
commercialized gambling in the United States, the lottery and sports gambling, I think the answer is
yes. Okay. That strikes me as I do believe you, but you've never once spoken about the DSM -5
and how it characterizes gambling. Why? I'm sorry. We did speak about DSM -5.
I just
strike my question.
I don't understand the question.
Mr. Bonny, I'm not
asking the question.
Mr. Mattyoni?
I have no further questions, Mr. Bonny.
I have one follow -up for
redirect for Mr.
Bernal. Next 10 minutes looks like.
Mr. Burnell, in the course of your research and advocacy and involvement with Star Predatory
Gambling, have you ever talked about the DSM -5?
Thank you.
Was it an important point in this area of public policy that the DSM -5 elevated gambling
disorder to to the point that it elevated it and it's in the in this latest edition of the dsm
yes i have no further questions but in doing so it doesn't discuss neighborhoods or anything like
that well let's take a look no i don't want you to take a look i that was just the statement that
i made i believe it touches on issues of accessibility and convenience you know that's
really the heart of what's going on here it used to be in las vegas then it was only in um atlantic
city and then we've had convenience casinos like sugar house and all right mr marionne do you have
any other questions and now the new wave is to come into neighborhoods and that's that's where
we're asking this board to to draw a line just to say it's not everywhere all right thank you
it's too much i think we get that we get that mr marionne you have any questions further questions
for mr burnell i have no further questions all right can we take a five minute break we'll be
back at 11 45. can can i ask mr chairman just a housekeeping matter so it's it's you know you said
12 how hard is that 12 noon because it's it's five to ten minutes hard okay thank you right
Thank you.
Hi, this is Dr. Curtis.
You've reached my place now.
Looks like I'm on the other line.
Please leave me the message with your name.
Hey, Barbara.
Hey, Barbara.
You're on, you're on.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
is the court reporter back
yes mr chair i am thank you and we have carol
let's see who else
professor tom jim are you guys available yes mr chairman i want to make sure we have
okay all right where were we left off i think i asked mr marionne if you had any more questions
for mr uh cohen i had no more questions for any of the witnesses that have been presented so far
Thank you. Mr. Barney.
You're muted, Paul.
Thank you. I think my next witness is Christian Raschutti, if she's available.
And she's ready for you, Chair.
Thank you. Good afternoon, Ms. Raschutti.
please identify yourself spell your first and last name and provide us with your address
good morning my name is kristen raschutti k -r -i -s -t -i -n -r -i -c -c -h -i -u -t -i -31 -38
olympia place philadelphia 1 -9 -1 -4 -5 you swear or affirm to tell the truth the whole truth and
nothing but the truth yes i do thank you ma 'am please proceed good morning members of the board
My name is Kristen Rusciutti. I'm the vice president of the Packer Park Civic Association.
I'm a parent, I'm a neighbor, and I'm a patron of the Packer Park Shopping Center.
My husband and I live a few short blocks away from the shopping center, and I'm a mother of two adolescent boys who often frequent the shopping center independently to get their hair cut, to have pizza with their friends, and to get some desserts.
My husband and I live a few short blocks away from the shopping center, and
For my oldest son's birthday party, we hosted it at Play 2 with his class and family and friends, and we all had a very enjoyable time.
However, with this new proposal from Chickies and Pete's, it changes the integrity, the character, and the environment that affects not only my children, but the community's children.
With this proposal, with signage or without, all the businesses and shops in turn become central and parallel to the gambling and the sports betting enterprise.
Objection, that's speculation, Mr. Chairman.
objection sustained it is speculation chickies and pete's touts itself as the number one sports
bar in the country now it will tout itself as having a sports book
normalize how they're going to expect it's speculative as how they're going to
market this facility it's not their facility it's parks casinos facility it's a sublease
It's not Chickies and Peets.
Well, I think I know where Ms. Rashidi was going.
We'll allow that.
It is speculation to a certain degree, but it will be housed within the footprint of
Chickie and Peets, so we'll allow that.
Thank you.
Please proceed.
So normalizing this behavior creates a sorbent atmosphere where the childhoods advance far
too quickly.
There should be a limit to how intrusive gambling and sports betting is in our community.
So I asked the board to think for a moment about their childhood home
and reflect on where they grew up or where they choose to raise their own family.
Now, is it three blocks away from a sports and gambling restaurant?
Thank you for your time.
my next do you have any questions hold on mr matione i have no questions mr mr bonnie
my next witness is ms barbara capozzi
good morning ms capozzi please identify yourself with the records by your name and i'll swear you
in. My name's Barbara Capozzi, C -A -P -O -Z -Z -I. We're a firm to tell the truth, the whole truth,
nothing but the truth. I do. I can't get my video on, but that's okay. We can hear you. Thank you.
Can you state your title in the organization, please? I'm president of the Packer Park Civic
Association for over 30 years. Even though we have elections, nobody wants the job. It's too much work.
Please describe for the board the community's position on this matter or the RCL's position on this matter.
I will gladly do that. But first, I want to address something to I have to say this. I'm sorry. I'm sick of hearing about the casino. Everyone was violently opposed to the casino. We lost that battle because on the other side of Broad Street, in anticipation of the casino, several civic associations were formed.
and the proponents of the casino did the classic divide and conquer it is the worst experience i've
ever had with the worst people the unions were 1000 for the casino as were our
i only referenced the casino because of its proximity to the stadium district folks
and Packer Park. I was not a proponent of that. I was a proponent of a casino being located in
another location. That's the only reason I raised Live Casino, because I don't think it is that far
away that it's going to make that much of a difference. But please just talk about this
application for Chickie and Pete's. You can unmute yourself.
Ms. Kaposi, you have to unmute yourself.
Take your time.
Maybe hover over your square and there's three dots in your square or maybe at the bottom.
or maybe at the bottom if you go to the bottom of the screen something will appear
If you go to the bottom of the screen, something will appear.
well we can do that or go to your next witness and then we got it we got it we got it she's back
she's back two wrongs do not make a right especially when the casino's there over overwhelming odds
oh she's been muted again
Ms. Kaposi you're somehow muted again if you could unmute yourself please
Ms. Kaposi we can't hear you okay I haven't touched my computer so somebody's on somebody's
muting me all right that would be me that would be me the administrator well that's great you're on
now so the zoning board is saying that a neighborhood that cleans its own streets
takes care of its properties hard -working people taxpayers we don't have our right to decide what
goes into our neighborhood every every neighborhood in the city should be like our neighborhood
united and and and caring and and devoted to their neighbors and their neighborhood
and you're you're actually making fun of us because we do care we didn't want the casino
nobody wanted the casino but just because we have a casino doesn't mean that we want
pete to bring it over to our side of broad street
miss Kaposi yeah I'm going to call you Barbara you and I know each other 50 years
I don't know what makes you think that we're making fun of the people in PAC
absolutely absolutely as if we have no right to you have a right
you know so this I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm sorry Barbara this is the third hearing to suggest you
have no right is disingenuous this is the third hearing fourth hearing thank you thank you for
you're welcome and you mentioned about cleaning the streets we're not how does who pays for that
cleaning the neighbors suffer under the under the uh burden of the sports complex the neighborhood
suffers everybody knows that i didn't know i'm gonna explain how the streets get cleaned okay
i'm sorry chair if i could please barbara sorry brought up the subject and i think it's fair to
let everyone know that the daily cleaning of the streets in your neighborhood and on the east side
abroad is done by the sports complex it is paid for by the sport the stadium district absolutely
absolutely of which i am the treasurer okay absolutely but that sports complex special
services district you and i were there at the beginning is the quid pro quo for this neighborhood
putting up with hundreds of thousands of people every weekend hundreds of thousands and if it
wasn't for the sports complex special services district to do the work it does and that's our
payment so our payment for putting up with that shit where the city makes millions of dollars
and accommodates hundreds of thousands of people a weekend the quid pro quo for that
is cleaning our streets there's no doubt about that but that's what we wanted that so yes we do
clean our streets because we could have asked for other things we asked for our streets to be clean
because the city doesn't do it we asked for trees to be planted because the city doesn't do it we
just recently paid for new LED lights because the city doesn't do it. So we don't have a right to
say we don't want this here. Yes. You have a right and you're expressing that as we speak now.
Ms. Kaposi, has the RCO circulated a petition? We've circulated a petition which is very hard
to do during COVID. We've circulated the petition online and also I've had them at my office but
but my office has been closed, so most of the time we couldn't get those petitions signed.
Well, tell us about that.
But we couldn't go door to door either because, obviously, it's not right.
Did the petition...
I'm going to jump on the record, Mr. Chairman, to preserve the record to this being hearsay.
It's a petition, it's hearsay.
Well, your petition...
Your petition was hearsay, too.
Come on.
We'll accept this.
Okay. Ms. Kaposi, your petition asked the respondent to indicate their preference for
oppose or support. So you gave people a choice how to vote. Is that correct?
That's the way a petition is supposed to be. Yes.
Okay. And do you know the results?
As of yesterday, there was 1 ,343 people opposed and 30 people for. And people had to go out of
And people had to go out of their way to sign this petition. We were not able to go door to door and, you know, confront people and intimidate them or anything like that.
their way to sign this petition. We were not able to go door to door.
Did you have an RCO meeting and what was the consensus of the RCO meeting?
We had an RCO meeting on February 1st in the middle of a blinding snowstorm. And we had to do that that night because the I believe the first zoning hearing was very soon after that.
so we had no time to cancel. We had it on Zoom and also to accommodate our neighbors in person
because not everybody likes Zoom. We had 62 people in the midst of a snowstorm and the opposition was
1 ,000 % against this. Okay, but just to recap, when it came to the petition,
people had the ability to sign it online as well as in person. Right, but they had to go
onto our website to do that. We did not send it out or anything like that. Thank you.
um did you have a rally recently we had a rally um very very short notice it was the day after
easter which was probably a bad choice um we had young people and old people the oldest person was
86 uh we had about 100 people um and again adamantly opposed to the whole concept of pete
doing this okay and that and that date was the date of the um march madness finals is that correct
i believe it was okay um tell us about this shopping center
okay the shopping center was built by my father in the early 1960s um he moved his office there
it was my first job i got paid an ice cream and it was the first shopping center that we know of
in the country that was built as condos and sold to the business owners so this is very very much
a um family friendly and enterprise i mean it's i'm gonna ask you some i'm gonna ask you some
questions been there from day one i'm gonna ask you some questions i'm sorry chair if i could
remind the board that we're at the 11 59 time yep two more minutes okay is am i is it accurate to
say that this shopping center has a dry cleaners, a food shop, a pharmacy, a beauty salon, a pizza
shop, a bakery, a nail salon, a bank branch, and a doctor's office? Two bank branches, doctor's
office, accountant. I think you left out a few things, but that's fine. Okay. Yep. And clearly
a gambling parlor does not fit in with those uses. Okay. Are there kids at Chickie's and Pete's?
there's kids at chickies and pete's and with the addition of play too which we did not object to
uh there's more kids than normal and the shopping center is a is a is an attraction for preteens and
teens in the neighborhood to go safely in a family -friendly place and uh everybody watches
after them we've always embraced pete and um people bring their kids to chickie and pete's
to watch games and or they stop there before the games to get in the mood okay i i'm showing you
a page from Chicky and Pete's website that says it's the ideal location for wedding receptions,
rehearsal dinners, or mitzvahs, which I assume is bar and bat mitzvahs. Is that correct? Okay.
Yep. Thank you. Also, this is Play 2. The part of the Chicky and Pete's website for Play 2
says in the middle at the bottom that they have a kid's package. Is that correct?
I'm sure it is. Play 2 is targeted for children.
Ages 5 to 15. All right. Thank you.
And this is the zoning materials for Play 2, which described it as an expansion of an existing restaurant.
And as you can see in the zoning materials, it's part of the building.
And I think you can even see it in the applicant's materials that there's an internal connection between the two.
I believe they share a kitchen too.
Okay. Tell us about that. So I'm just going to show an aerial photograph of the neighborhood. Fair to say that this is in a residential neighborhood.
Very fair to say. Absolutely. Densely packed residential neighborhood.
And this second photo here shows the rear of Chickie and Pete's, as well as the rear of many homes on Curtin Street, just right next door, essentially.
and uh is this accurate yes okay you have members indeed board members who own some of those houses
is that correct yes it is okay now we get to the proposal at hand why does the community not want
it objection she's not supposed to speak for the community why does the for 30 years i'm not
i'm not supposed to speak for the community are you kidding me barbara barbara miss capozzi
supposed to speak for the community are you kidding me barbara barbara miss capozzi that's
that's the that's the those are the rules guys guys we've established we've established we only
had 10 minutes to present our case would you like me to bring all the other people on
all right i'm not going to argue with you and they took up three three of the four hearings
the applicant had three of the four hearings and they went on for multiple multiple hours
all right okay we've had less than two hours you have a question from mr bonnie please
yeah my suggestion is to let the neighborhood person speak that's my suggestion please
um miss kaposi if you could be unmuted please sunk it
just waiting okay thank you um
why does your organization oppose um oppose this proposal
hello she's on she please unmute her
she has to unmute herself okay barbara we can if you stop muting me i i never saw anything so
ridiculous okay gambling hurts people it destroys family it depletes savings it causes divorces
and she finished the casino and that's why we don't want this that's what i heard at the
meetings that we've had that's what i heard when people knock on my door at home that's what i
heard when people come into my office okay i don't make it up i have other things to do in my life
people are vulnerable and they're even more vulnerable now with covid there's there's no
doubt that covid has destroyed the uh the it's just destroyed the fabric of our society
Ms. Kaposi, Ms. Kaposi, I realize that you respect Pete Chiraki, is that correct?
Very much. He's a very good businessman, and he's a Mr. Promoter.
And if he wanted to try and make more money by subletting all or a part of his premises for another use or another type of business, you and your organization would try their best to work with him, is that correct?
We always have, yes.
I want to run by you a few businesses which normally might be expected to be in the generic assembly and entertainment use category and ask you just as a bunch of, I'll ask all at once, if your community would be okay with these things.
A bowling alley, a gymnasium, a health club, or indoor swimming, tennis, or skating.
If you wanted to do any of that, would you be okay with that?
Absolutely.
They're family friendly.
They're not addictive.
They don't hurt people.
Thank you.
And we would enjoy that very much.
Thank you.
Do you have any concluding remarks?
Pete is an excellent businessman.
He's a master promoter.
There is no doubt that his business will survive, even being this close to the casino.
He testified that he needs this gambling to succeed.
he should be embarrassed to even say anything so ridiculous that's absolutely not true and to
subject this neighborhood that's always embraced him and has begged him not to do this and many
many people have begged him not to do this myself included to continue to propose this application
when you know that everybody is dead set against it except maybe your cousin and a few employees
that's absolutely a disgrace thank you miss Kaposi do you have any questions Mr. Mattione
I have a couple of quick questions where was the um I would like to be able to share my screen
briefly oh hold on let me stop sharing and Ms. Capozzi where was the RCO meeting held
the RCO meeting was held um across the street at the felladium it was supposed to be outside
but um in which we we had a hard time because of the city's ridiculous lockdown restrictions
we had a hard time finding a place in february well this is february we were going to be in the
tent outside but because of the snow we could not be because the snow was laying on the roof of the
tent okay okay one person at a time well he asked me a question and i'm answering him okay go ahead
mr bonnie i have nothing to say i just was going to suggest that mr mattione ask his next question
thank you. And you would describe the phalladium as a family -friendly place? Yes. Neighborhood spot?
Okay. Isn't it true that this is a picture from the inside of the phalladium?
I really couldn't say. And isn't it true that this shows Pennsylvania seal game right inside
this family -friendly phalladium that doesn't have the game segregated or anything. Anybody
walking into the palladium can walk right up
to this gambling Pennsylvania
Pennsylvania skill game. It's right there on the bar inside the play team. Isn't that true,
skill game. It's right there on the bar inside
the palladium. Isn't that true, Ms. Capozzi?
Ms. Capozzi? If that wasn't legal, it wouldn't be there.
But you're opposing... That's not the question.
Isn't that true, though, that's right there? I really don't know what that is, and I don't
know what it has to do with this. It has everything to do with this, because you're sitting here
saying that you're opposing a totally segregated, totally controlled, small sports betting parlor
of 2 ,600 square feet while across the street at the family -friendly bar where you held your RCO
meeting, they have on the bar itself Pennsylvania skill games where you can go in and gamble and
there's no segregation. Children could walk right up. Michael, there's no comparison whatsoever.
And I have nothing to do with the phalladium. Barbara, Barbara, Barbara, Barbara. There's no
comparison. Barbara, please answer the question. Mr. Mattione, are you accusing the phalladium
of having an illegal gambling game mr bonnie let's not go down that well he
he's making he's making the comparison now you know that and i know that no no i don't not look
he's not looking to get anybody in trouble i don't know what that game is do you know what
that i don't know what that game is it says pennsylvania skill what do i know i don't know
all right all right red herring let's go move on it's not a red herring it just shows that
In your neighborhood, there is already gambling.
It's much more accessible than the casino, the casino, I'm sorry, the sports book inside
proposed inside of Chickies and Peaks.
Is that your best argument, Michael?
I have no further questions for Ms. Proposal.
Barbara, you're supposed to answer the question.
I have no further questions for Mr. Proposal.
All right, I have a question.
Could you go back to the original, Paul, go back to the slide that shows the protesters
outside?
Yes, I will.
uh well i have one of them easily accessible i don't know if you want to see all three of them
here's one of that i think that one is the one i was looking for um thank you
uh no it's not the one that i see i can find the other ones
well whatever the let's go to the petition if you haven't the petition ms capozzi testified that
there's 1300 plus signatories yeah and i'm looking at the petition i was wondering
this did the people who signed the petition were they made aware of exactly what is being proposed
here or were they of the opinion that this was going to be an extension of a casino because
the word parks casino could be misleading meaning the casino in in its truest sense
it's very clear table games table games sports bar and paramutual betting we took the words
exactly from the the zoning application and a zoning lawyer made this up chicky since pete's
proposed sports book i just was curious when you see the word with parks casino well it is with
parks casino are you saying we were lying no i didn't say that barbara i would never
okay it is it not with parks casino i didn't say that i said the word casino can be misleading
i'm not suggesting it was done in a nefarious way i'm asking of the signatories and most of them are
they're not even signatures they're printed a lot of these a lot of the names have been printed
they're not real signatories this is where we're going mr mr chairman that's sad this is really
sad what's sad this is where we're going all the issues in this case and this is where we're going
there's plenty of them that are printed that are i'm just saying there are a number there are a
number of them that are printed and i'm just asking was it explained to the signator quite
for the signatories that this was not going to be a casino that's all i'm asking that's that
shouldn't be a hard question okay it is quite clear just from the face of that
i'm looking at that just from the face of that exactly what it was well it's clear to you but
i'm wondering if it was clear to other people that's all i'm asking i'm not criticizing why
don't we bring them in why don't we have another hearing and waste more time well if you consider
it a waste of time i suggest that this hearing is concluded okay my suggestion no no more
suggestions closing statements let's go okay well my question is do we want to do that now or do we
want to do it tomorrow because tomorrow we have 50 something cases on there i understand my closing
statement this is this is a joke for some people we're not going to get we're not going to accommodate
to some people we're not going to get we're not going to accommodate it any longer
it anyone i think
i think we've heard enough testimony if my board disagrees please speak up mr chairman my closing
statement's about 15 minutes i don't know if we can handle tanya we we're we're in trouble there
aren't we at 12 15 we will shut everything down my suggestion to be shut down my suggestion is
that we close the record and have closing arguments as asap on another day well on another
day on another day we have too many cases so then it'll take it to another day excuse me this is
sharon could you perhaps um close the record aside from written closing statements that will
be submitted by the attorneys right and we're not shutting it down because we don't want to hear
from folks we just don't have the ability to continue this case we have thousands of cases
that we're trying to get off the docket and this is the fourth hearing so so so why don't i let's
do that why don't i give a condensed version of my closing and submit the rest for the submit the
remainder for the record if you can do it in uh three minutes i can't do it in three minutes i
i'm not being sarcastic we got to shut down there's there are other there are other people
who need this zoom uh call or whatever technically we can't do it any further mr chairman our
presentation was interrupted extensively today we tried our best to get this done quickly we could
not given the barrage of interruptions i would like to make a call i would like that's an unfair
that's an unfair statement we're a board we have a we have the obligation to ask questions
of witnesses that's not you can you can call it an interruption i call it doing our job
trying to get to the issue fair enough but i would like i believe i i would like to make a
closing argument now or on another day for 15 minutes i'm happy to work with your schedule
i'm not trying to delay things we tried our best to do this today i think if we close the record
and have closings on another day it will be a half an hour at the max 15 minutes for me 15
for Mattione, Mr. Mattione, and we can call it and you can make your decision. But this is a
very important matter. There are a lot of issues here. I have a, we work very hard on this closing
argument and we would like to have the time to present it. And I think you will, you and your
colleagues, you know, will find it interesting. And as I'm sure you will, Mr. Mattione is closing
also excuse me mr bonnie if the chair agrees to do that and you're in the middle of your closing
it's going to be stopped are you comfortable with that i'll commit to 15 minutes period
period and that's up to the chair you can mute me that worked for mr matione
there are two sides of this mr matione mr chairman i don't have a problem with doing
a closing argument i just wanted as soon as possible i don't want to have to wait another
three months we agree well it's not your choice paul i'm saying we agree with you all right he
agrees that you don't want to delay joining you in your request for an expeditious half an hour
at some point over the next week or two why can't they do it in writing why can't this be done in
writing honestly chair this is tanya honestly we don't have anything available within the next two
weeks i concur with um council who requested written closing that's what we'll do okay thank
you i i want to i would just would like to state my objection for the record that we're
being denied the ability to give our closing argument
an oral argument that's right that's what i said that's what okay all right no no worries all right
um what's my notes what is the argument do mr chairman i i haven't a clue let me say all right
i don't i don't i'm not being sarcastic i just i don't know obviously what would you want mike
what would you want i would want no more than a week that's fine with me what we're going to we're
going to close this the record will be closing you'll have to submit written arguments within
and we'll within a week correct within so that we'll have them by next wednesday next wednesday
being the 20 what is it uh 30 uh june 2nd june 2nd all right so mi 2020 -001532
1526 packer avenue the record is closed the board uh with the exception that both sides
parties will submit written testimony as to their closing arguments, at which time the board will
make a decision at its next executive session. Mr. Chairman, can we say for the heck of it that
Mr. Chairman, can we say for the heck of it that it's 5 p .m. on June the 2nd?
it's 5 p .m. on June the 2nd?
That our written is due?
No, wouldn't that be the 1st, June 1st?
Well, he said Wednesday. I don't care which day.
But it's due Wednesday, June 2nd.
You tell me when the deadline is. Just tell us when the deadline is.
By 5 p .m. June. Is it June 2nd, Tanya?
you that's wednesday frank yes june 2nd 5 p .m thank you mr chairman thank you all thank you
thank all right thanks to the board and again everyone behind the scenes who makes all this
stuff happen we appreciate it absolutely thank you guys have a good one everyone thank you
you too