Committee Hearing, October 27, 1998

COUNCIL OF THE CITY OF PHILADELPHIA PUBLIC HEARING AND PUBLIC MEETING BEFORE COUNCIL COMMITTEE ON LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - - - Room 400, City Hall Philadelphia, Pennsylvania Tues., 10/27/98, 10:20 a.m. - - - Bill No. 960598 - Amending the Retirement System Ordinance, approved December 3, 1956, and the retirement system ordinance approved April 22, 1987, as amended, by redefining "average final compensation" for certain employees in positions which cannot be represented by a union by revising the base compensation upon which retirement benefits shall be computed. Bill No. 970212 - amending Section 20-101 of The Philadelphia Code, entitled "Residence Requirements," by providing that former United States military service personnel entering in the civil service need not be bona fide residents of the City when appointed, but must establish and maintain bona fide residence in the City within six months after appointment. Res. No. 980154 - Authorizing the City Council committee on civil service to conduct hearings and investigations into the diversity apologies within the ongoing reorganization of the City of Philadelphia Department of Personnel and into the effect these policies have on city's workforce and its image. (Withdrawn) PRESENT: COUNCILMAN RICHARD T. MARIANO, Chair COUNCILWOMAN JOAN L. KRAJEWSKI COUNCILWOMAN AUGUSTA A. CLARK COUNCILMAN DAVID COHEN COUNCILMAN JAMES F. KENNEY COUNCILMAN MICHAEL A. NUTTER COUNCILMAN ANGEL L. ORTIZ - - - VINCENT VARALLO ASSOCIATES, INC. Registered Professional Reporters Eleven Penn Center, Suite 600 Philadelphia, PA 19103 (215) 561-2220 COMMITTEE ON LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE I N D E X Bill 960598 Ben Hayllar, Director of Finance. . . . . . . 3 Joe Kidwell, Pension Program Administrator. . 14 Judith Sammon-Dunn, Board Member. . . . . . . 7 City Management Professional Employees Vito Mattia, Voting Machine Svc. Sup. . . . . 17 John Crapper, Assoc. Of City Mgrs.. . . . . . 20 Bill 970212 Police Commissioner John Timoney. . . . . . . 13 Ken Rocks, President, FOP . . . . . . . . . . 50 14 Les Yost, President . . . . . . . . . . . . . 86 15 Philadelphia Firefighters Union 16 Linda Seyda, Director of Personnel. . . . . . 88 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 3 COMMITTEE ON LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Bill 960598 P R O C E E D I N G S

We're ready to start the public hearing now convened with a quorum of Councilman Cohen, Councilman Mariano (myself), Councilman Kenney, and Councilman Nutter. Clerk, would you please read the first bill.

Bill No. 960598 - An ordinance amending the Retirement System Ordinance, approved December 3, 1956, and the retirement system ordinance approved April 22, 1987, as amended, by redefining "average final compensation" for certain employees in positions which cannot be represented by a union by revising the base compensation upon which retirement benefits shall be computed.

Who's our first witness, Ben Hallyer.

Good morning. I am Ben Hayllar, Director of Finance and, in that capacity, I serve as Chairman of the Pension Board. With me today is Joe Kidwell. He is here today for Joe Herkness, who is recovering from 4 COMMITTEE ON LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Bill 960598 minor surgery. We are here to testify on Bill 960598, which would allow non-represented employees overtime to be used in calculation of their pension benefits. Currently, non-reps, hired before October 1, 1992 do not have overtime calculated in determining their annual pension payment benefits once they retire. It should be noted that other employees like police officers and firefighters and members of District Council 47 hired between January 9, 1987 and October 1, 1992 also who do not have overtime calculated in their pension calculations either. However, in the case of these employees, this is a matter that should appropriately be taken up through the collective bargaining process. However, by their very nature, non-represented employees cannot get overtime used for pension calculations through a collective bargaining process. As a result, we have the unfair situation where a non-represented employee supervises represented employees for whom overtime is calculated in their pension base. It should be noted that non-exempts in 5 COMMITTEE ON LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Bill 960598 the higher salary ranges (EP22 or above) do not receive overtime; rather, they receive compensatory time, which cannot be calculated in their pension. Therefore, the legislation would apply only to the approximately 532 non-represented employees who, in 1996, earned $3.083 million in overtime. In the past, the Pension Board's actuary calculated that this increased benefit would increase the City's costs to the pension by approximately $520,000 a year, depending on the amount of overtime issued. Because the City Pension Fund is 50 percent funded, the huge unfunded liability requires the City to pay a considerable annual cost of $238 million a year, or almost 8 percent of its entire General Fund budget. This cost will escalate until the year 2020. At that point, the City will be paying almost 10 percent of its budget into the employees' pension fund. Any increase in benefits such as those proposed in the legislation only increases the cost to the City's taxpayers. In the past, we have opposed legislation of this type because of the increased 6 COMMITTEE ON LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Bill 960598 costs to the General Fund. However, today we are in a position where we can support this legislation. Earnings of the Pension Fund have exceeded the percent actuarial earnings 6 assumption over the past few years. In 1995, the 7 total return on investments was 11.09 percent. In 8 FY '96, the total return on investment was 17.1 9 percent. And in FY '97, the total return was 17.49 percent. Those strong earnings by the Fund allows the City to take on this additional pension expense. Fundamentally, the principal reason that we can support this legislation is that it eliminates a disparity between non-represented employees and their subordinates whose overtime is calculated in their pensions. The legislation eliminates an unfair condition, and we are pleased to be able to support it. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Hayllar. Councilwoman Krajewski and Councilman Ortiz have just joined us. Is there any questions for Mr. Hayllar 7 COMMITTEE ON LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Bill 960598 from the committee?

Just glad to see that the City wants to correct an injustice and. . . (inaudible, off-mike).

Thank you.

Any time injustice is righted, we're happy. Ben makes our day bright. Any other questions from Council of the witnesses? (No questions.)

Seeing none, going to the next witness. That would be Judith Sammon-Dunn. (Judith Sammon-Dunn comes forward.)

State your name, please.

Judith Sammon-Dunn. Good morning. I'm very, very happy to hear of the administration's change. I am here as a board member of the Association of City Management Professional Employees, and I have prepared testimony pointing out a number of things that actually, if you'll bear with me, bear 8 COMMITTEE ON LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Bill 960598 repeating. Last time around, a couple years ago, we heard testimony that police and fire employees do not have overtime calculated in their pensions. However, in his own testimony, Vito Mattia pointed out that police and fire officers can earn pensions of up to a 100 percent of their final compensation, whereas the rest of us can earn up to 80 percent. And he just distributed to all of us a summary of the benefits which confirms this. This happens to be the earlier plan; later plans have similar differences but accrue at slower rates. Plan J, which was the one included in here covers a great number of employees, and I was surprised to see the exempts appointed in there. However, the only one specifically excluded are non-represented employees, so I am hopeful that you will rectify that situation. Also, another difference between the police and civilians is that police officers can retire at the age of 45 with a pension. Our age is 55 for the first ability to retire. Despite these differences, I have difficulty finding in 9 COMMITTEE ON LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Bill 960598 the previously submitted information actuarial information that showed the cost of the overtime itself as opposed to showing the cost of what it would do to increase our pensions. Overtime is given to non-employees in training and in entry-level position clearly near retirement or near for the most part in here. High-level officials and Water and Streets Department crew supervisors who have been promoted to a level higher than represented staff now get a big bite out of the pensions, which had they not taken that promotion, it couldn't happen so they would earn less in pension than the people they supervise. So on behalf of all those people, we are asking you, as non-represented people, without collective bargaining, to move forward on this to allow those people to include overtime in their final definition of compensation. And I thank you.

Thank you, Miss Dunn. Any questions? (No questions.)

Any other persons 10 COMMITTEE ON LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Bill 960598 in the chamber here to testify on this bill? (No response.)

There being none, you're dismissed. Mr. Hayllar, Councilman Cohen wants to ask you a question. Can you come back to the table. (Ben Hayllar returns to witness table.)

Mr. Hayllar, this situation that we're trying to correct today arises out of a policy that the city administration's long had that pensions are a sole matter of collective bargaining. As a result the pension system being different for different groups of city employees, it's always impossible for to us explain why one employee gets a higher pension than another employee, and I want to ask the city administration to give this serious consideration because I think we're going to want to introduce legislation perhaps even before the end of the year that places pensions at the highest level that's been obtained by any one group so that everything can be uniform. 11 COMMITTEE ON LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Bill 960598 It's terribly difficult for us, when we go out into the community to hear somebody say that one employee gets one pension and another one gets another one. I think that's due to what I believe is a faulty policy of this administration and previous administrations in feeling that only collective bargaining can deal with the question of pensions. So I just wanted to call you back to say we'd like to see you and the administration give consideration to how we can deal with these pensions so that all employees get the same pension. And I would suggest they be at the highest level that the city has committed itself to for any group of employees.

In regards to uniformity of pensions, most likely before the end of this year, legislation will be introduced that recodifies pensions because of disparities within each of the various pensions. There's actually more than two. And also, as you may know, pension legislation is a collection of ordinances that Council has passed over a number of years. The 12 COMMITTEE ON LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Bill 960598 recodifying of the pensions takes the hodgepodge put in one document that people can use and read as opposed to a variety of pensions out there. And there will inconsistencies that will be corrected. In terms of the larger issue of whether you wish to increase pension benefits, which is what you're suggesting be done, that's simply a matter of what the city can afford to pay because, ultimately, the increase will be paid for by the taxpayers.

But ultimately, the decision will be made by Council. We in a position to set the policy, and I'm just saying to you, giving you advance notice and the administration that I think there's anarchy that currently exists so that when somebody comes in to talk to us, an employee, we have no way of explaining the differences in the pension. So I'm just urging that when you put everything together, recommendations need to be made to have a uniform system. I don't know, I think maybe it's got to be removed from the bargaining process, but in any 13 COMMITTEE ON LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Bill 960598 event, I don't think we can tolerate the situation. What's going to happen to the employees who retired, say the county commissioner employees, what's going to happen to those that retired? Is there any method of bringing them up?

It is prospective not retrospective.

It's also a matter we're going to have to deal with. Thank you, Mr. Hayllar.

Thank you.

Councilman Nutter?

I have questions for Mr. Hayllar. Mr. Hayllar, I just wanted to be sure I understand the particular here. I guess I'll ask you by way of example, if an employee who is to be affected by -- and we can just kind of pick numbers here -- if that persons was a 20-year employee and then sometime in the middle of their career, let's say, that that person makes now $25,000 a year, but that in the years 10, 11, and 12, those three years, 'cause we're going to count 14 COMMITTEE ON LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Bill 960598 overtime as a part of the calculation in this, let's say that that person made $35,000. If it is possible to drive $10,000 to overtime -- let's just take numbers as a result of the bill -- the Pension Board, and let's say for years on through 20, the employee never did any 8 more overtime and went back to $25,000 a year 9 salary, is their pension calculated on years 10, 10 11, and 12 at the 35 rate? And that would be if 11 they retire in the year 21, their pension would be 12 based on $35,000 in total? Because that's the 13 average of the three highest years as opposed to the other years when they were at 25. 15

That kind of question is 16 why I bought Mr. Kidwell with me. 17

Okay, good. Mr. Kidwell?

The answer to the question is yes, provided that years 10, 11, 12 occur after the effective date of this bill. Say in the years '80, '81 and '82, that employee's salary was 35,000. That 35,000, under this bill 24 would, not be included in the pension if the years 99, 2001, 2001 will be calculated in the pension. 15 COMMITTEE ON LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Bill 960598

So you're not going back to catch your highest years in the past; you're going to allow for years in the future.

As of the effective date of the bill, yes.

Okay.

The answer to that is cost. I don't know how far back we can go because there is an infinite cost going back. I think we can control the costs going forward but not going back.

Lastly, just in terms of that person's salary in the going-forward years, when they make the additional overtime and that didn't come as part of an increase out of their salary and overtime combination, which I guess is going to be called the total combination for that year? Or is the pension deduction based on what the straight salary is notwithstanding whatever the for year that's a part of the total compensation for that year?

We think that the contribution remains the same.

Okay. 16 COMMITTEE ON LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Bill 960598

It's a lot more effective if he answers.

The contribution rate remains the same. The overtime would be factored into the salary in which the contribution is calculated on.

Okay. And that will all be fully explained to the employees so that they're not surprised during the years that they start seeing extra money coming out of their paycheck?

Yes.

And wondering what happened?

Yes.

Okay, all right thank you. Thank you Mr. Chairman.

Thank you. Any more questions. (No further questions.)

Seeing none, that brings us to the next witness, Tom Mattia. (Comes forward.) 17 COMMITTEE ON LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Bill 960598

Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. To give you a little example --

Mr. Mattia, that's V. Mattia? V. M-A-T-T-I-A.

Right.

And the V stands for Vito?

"Victory," I hope. To give you a good example, we were here in '96, December when we brought this up. In my title, if I go out today, I go out with $32,869. My secretary would go out with $39,856. My mechanic would go out with $38,586. My group leader would go out with there 47,386. So my group leader would go out with $15,000 more than me, my secretary go out with $17,000 more than me, and the mechanic would go out with $6,000 more than me. That's very, very unfair. I've had the responsibilities. All my positions have had the responsibility. It's similar to the World Series but a little different. In the World Series, in the seven game, if it rains, you go to the next day. But in 18 COMMITTEE ON LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Bill 960598 my position, those machines must be out and put in place no later than a.m. on Election Day and 4 then they're returned to the warehouse. 5 Now, actually, in 1993, when Councilman 6 Blackwell introduced it, and in '96, when we had the hearing, they were talking about taxpayers' money, true, but is it fair? This is only in my department. We go in other departments like the City Commission, and they'll be getting 10, 11, $12,000 more, and their responsibilities are nothing compared to mine, believe me. So anything the Council can do, I really would appreciate it. Thank you.

Thank you Mr. Mattia. Any questions from the committee? Council Cohen?

Mr. Mattia, do you understand that the bill before us only looks to the future.

I --

In other words, for you to get the full benefits of this bill -- and that's for everybody here -- you would have to 19 COMMITTEE ON LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Bill 960598 work for the next three years. Personally, I would like for you to stay there because of the superlative job you do and I'm grateful for the many years you've done it. There those of us who are politically dependent on the fine work you and your department in getting machines those out there on time, but I wanted you to be aware that things forward.

And it won't benefit me.

And I have questions as to how fair that is. I don't understand why it is not effective retroactively to cover any employees. That's something we'll deal with later on.

It will not benefit me, Councilman. I don't see why they can't start in '96 when the committee had a hearing.

You make a very good point.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Any other questions for Mr. Mattia? (No questions.) 20 COMMITTEE ON LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Bill 960598

Seeing none, we'll go to the next witness.

Thank you.

Thank you. Mr. Crapper. (John Crapper comes forward.)

Good morning. My name is John Crapper, C-R-A-P-P-E-R. I am the Chairperson for the Association of City Managers. I thank the administration for their support in recommending that you might pass this ordinance and this bill, but I'm disappointed because the organization has been fighting for many years to undo the inequities of these administrations, not only present administration but the ones previous to it. I would suggest to City Council at this time, this committee, that you might take back -- that this bill might be retroactive at least three years back. I do not understand why certain employees of the City of Philadelphia who have been faithful and diligent in their work should be treated unfairly because we're not represented by an organization who has the right to bargain for 21 COMMITTEE ON LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Bill 960598 those employees. I thank you for all that you have done in the past but I'm looking forward to this City Council to nod only do the fair and right thing by us because we are the employees of you and the citizens, but also we are taxpayers and voters in this city. We only ask for what is right and equitable -- not fair but equitable -- so that we can begin to have the retirement to enjoy the benefits that other employees have the right to enjoy. This bill in its present state is fair. But it's not equitable because it's not putting it back where we can receive some funds from our previous years of employment. The majority of our city non-represented representatives are close to retirement. I have 33 years and go out next year. At the most, I will go out at 35 years of service. So we have a vested interest in this bill. For us to sit here today and see that the bill will become effective, once you have passed it, it will probably be of no value to employees who are not represented. We would like 22 COMMITTEE ON LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Bill 960598 to see equitable legislation that would apply to all of the citizens who are employees of the City of Philadelphia. I thank you for your support and look forward to your support in the future. And I hope you will do the fair and equitable thing by this association. Thank you.

You said it wouldn't be fair to people, unless I misunderstood you, from this point on. As I understand it -- this is for the record now.

Right.

Thank you. Any questions? Councilman Cohen?

As I understand, Mr. Crapper, if any folks here that are affected by this bill, if they stayed on the payroll for three more years, then this bill would give them the full rights and would clear the situation. The problem for current employees is that if they retire in less than three years, they would not receive the full benefits of this bill. If they stayed there two years, they would get two thirds of the benefits of this bill because this bill is 23 COMMITTEE ON LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Bill 960598 merely prospective, so that the overtime would be counted for pension purposes beginning with the effective date of this bill. That's a good step forward in correcting long-existing inequity. I think we should write a proposal that it ought to be effective for all current employees, and it's not going to cost the City a penny in the next three years. This is a clear injustice to any current employee retiring in less than three years if it's not made retroactive.

That's correct.

Am I clear on that?

Yes.

Thank you.

Any other questions any other. (No questions.)

Seeing none, thank you.

Thank you.

That seems to be all the testimony for this bill. We'll now move on to the next bill, Bill 970212. The clerk will please read the title 24 COMMITTEE ON LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Bill 970212 of the bill.

An ordinance amending Section 20-101 of The Philadelphia Code, entitled "Residence Requirements," by providing that former United States military service personnel entering in the civil service need not be bona fide residents of the City when appointed, but must establish and maintain bona fide residence in the City within six months after appointment.

At this time the chairman would like to recognize Jim Kenny.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I wanted to say for the outset that I recognize today that an amendment must be made to the title of the bill that would require me to introduce a new bill on Thursday, including those changes. The change was primarily pointed out by the administration, and I happen to agree with it. In the title, it says "former" United States military personnel, and that could apply generally to any veteran of any period of time, and that was 25 COMMITTEE ON LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Bill 970212 not the intent of the bill. The intent of the bill -- that's why the term needs to be changed to "active" so that the Police Department and, hopefully, other departments of the city can recruit active military personnel. So, again, change needs to be made to the title. Therefore, Thursday, a new bill will be introduced but I'm asking the Chair to allow for testimony from the Police Commissioners, who's here now, and that we accept his testimony without taking action.

I don't see a problem with that, Councilman. Any objections from my colleagues? (No objections.)

The first witness, Commissioner Timoney. (Commissioner Timoney comes forward.)

Commissioner, please state your name for the record. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yes, John Timoney, T-I-M-O-N-E-Y. Police Commissioner of Philadelphia. COMMITTEE ON LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Bill 970212

This bill 970212, I think you know what it's about. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yes.

If you'll proceed with your testimony on it, please. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Good morning, and thank you for allowing me to testify on behalf of 970212. This bill would assist the City of Philadelphia in our efforts to recruit the best possible candidates as future police officers for the Philadelphia Police Department. Presently, there is a national problem facing police departments in their attempts to recruit the best-qualified to serve as police officers. A side effect of a prolonged economic boom is that police departments nationwide are finding it increasingly difficult to compete with the private sector in recruiting and hiring. As the economy grows, so does the demands for a talented workforce. Therefore, fewer people are interested in becoming police officers in these good economic times. Recently, New York City faced this exact problem. Where it was common in the past 27 COMMITTEE ON LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Bill 970212 for more than 40,000 applicants to sign up for the police entrance exam, in New York, only 4,000 applicants applied for the exam this year. This is despite the fact that New York's lenient residency allows officers to live in a number of surrounding suburban counties, and a new recruit doesn't even have to establish residency in any one of those counties before being hired. In Philadelphia, the problem's even more pronounced. There were only 2300 applicants who sat for the last police officer entrance exam on July 25th of this year. This number is down from the 3700 applicants who took the exam each of the 2 previous years. In fact, 10 years ago, it was common for 10,000 or more applicants to take a Philadelphia police officer exam. When you consider that only 10 percent of those who take the exam are ever hired, it's clear that we are in a policing hiring crisis. I understand and support the reasons for requiring Philadelphia police officers to live in Philadelphia. It is desirable that officers have a personal stake in the city for which they work. It is also beneficial to the tax base and 28 COMMITTEE ON LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Bill 970212 the city's economy that city employees live in Philadelphia. I also understand the strong feeling that city jobs should be available for city residents. City jobs should be available to the local kids as they grow up, and the residency requirement provides incentives for these kids to stay in Philadelphia and raise their own families here. For these reasons, I do support the residency requirement. However, I also think that this bill will only enhance these reasons. As the law presently stands, the police departments cannot realistically recruit officers from outside the city limits. If a qualified candidate is found outside the city, on a military base or college campus, he or she can't become a Philadelphia police officer until he or she has lived in the city for one year. It is doubtful that this person could find any serious employment in the interim when the employer knows that the person will be leaving for the Philadelphia Police Department in a year. And it is not realistic to ask a qualified candidate to pump gas or work in a deli for a year before we hire them.

Not that there's 29 COMMITTEE ON LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Bill 970212 anything wrong with pumping gas or working in a deli. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: There's nothing wrong with pumping gas or working in a deli, you're right.

I'm just making clarification, that's all. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: By the way, there's also nothing wrong with washing dishes, because I did that for four years prior to working for the New York City Police Department. Any way, the police department and all other city agencies end up competing with one other and the private sector from a limited pool. So by permitting the Police Department to recruit from the ranks of those who have honorably served in our nation's armed forces, this bill will significantly increase the pool of qualified candidates. Military personnel often make ideal police officers. By their nature and training, military personnel are dedicated individuals. And they have demonstrated their dedication to civic duty by their service. By virtue of the military organization and rank 30 COMMITTEE ON LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Bill 970212 structure, these individuals understand the need and the requirement of discipline. These individuals are also proven workers, as their honorable discharges attest to. Since the military determines where a serviceman's home is during course of active duty, residency is not a matter of choice for these men and women. The military installs maturity, experience, and pride of service to others, and these are ideal qualities for the future of Philadelphia police officers. These are also ideal qualities for the type of people we want to move into the City of Philadelphia, and we should welcome them as productive new citizens of Philadelphia. Therefore, it is for these reasons that I urge you to support Bill no. 970212, as amended, to ensure that the residency exemption applies to only those individuals in active military service. Thank you, ladies and gentlemen. And any questions I'll be glad to field.

Thank you Commissioner. Councilman Cohen? 31 COMMITTEE ON LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Bill 970212

Commissioner, I hear your testimony. It's very persuasive, but I want to address some questions. Have you in your relatively brief period as Police Commissioner had an opportunity to review the outreach programs of the Police Department? I just find it very difficult to understand that in a city this size that we don't have enough qualified applicants. And my belief is that the City does have more than enough qualified applicants, but that somehow or another, we are not reaching out to them. And I'm wondering -- I know you've had all kinds of problems -- whether you've had an opportunity to study those outreach programs and see if they can be improved upon, because I feel there are many, more qualified applicants from the City of Philadelphia. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: You're absolutely right, there are plenty of qualified applicants in the City of Philadelphia. In fact, so many that Washington D.C. and Baltimore are recruiting them. Chuck Ramsey in Washington D.C. is actively recruiting in this city. 32 COMMITTEE ON LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Bill 970212 The issue isn't that there aren't enough qualified candidates, but by going to military bases, we can expand that pool to enlarge the pool of qualified applicants. You know, there is a hiring crisis in policing across the nation, across the nation. Can we improve our recruitment unit? Absolutely. We are in the process now of revamping all recruitment units within the Philadelphia Police Department. It's a job we're doing presently. But even if we had a top-notch recruitment unit, we would still run into a problem of competing with not just with other city agencies, not just with the private sector, but with police departments as far away as, I guarantee you, New York. New York cancelled its exempt requirement when there wasn't enough applicants a month ago. It's all over the United States. A month ago, I was at a conference of major city police chiefs in June, and this discussion came up with the major city chiefs. Only one said that he had no problems getting applicants. That was the police chief out in Los Angeles who didn't seem to 33 COMMITTEE ON LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Bill 970212 have the problem that the rest of us are having, whether it's Chicago, Boston, Philly, New York. And since the economy doesn't look like it's slowing down, I don't expect the prospects to get any better. So at a minimum, we need to enlarge the pool of candidates not because there aren't enough qualified, but we need to enlarge the pool when people in this economy have so many other options at the present time.

I just have difficulty reconciling two of your statements. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Okay.

You say there are enough qualified candidates. But nonetheless, it is difficult, when you go out into the community where there's large-scale unemployment. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Right.

And you hear them say, Well, we have so many unemployed, why can't we fill these jobs? Maybe they need extra training, maybe they don't, I don't know what the circumstances are. But, you know, it's sometimes viewed as a kind of slap in the face to Philadelphia 34 COMMITTEE ON LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Bill 970212 residents to say that they can't produce enough qualified applicants and, therefore, we have to go outside the walls of Philadelphia. You know, we fight very hard to make sure that all Philadelphia residents get a fair shake at the jobs. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Right.

So I urge you to examine in any way you can the possibility of how to increase the applicants from the ranks of people who have been living right here in Philadelphia and whose families may have been here for many generations. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Right.

There's got to be a way in a city of million and a half people to produce applicants, good applicants that will make excellent police officers. There's got to be a way of reaching those folks, even if we may have to take special steps to find them. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yes.

Thank you, Mr. Commissioner.

Councilman Ortiz?

Commissioner, 35 COMMITTEE ON LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Bill 970212 following up on what Councilman Cohen is saying. The aspect -- and as a person who philosophically believes in expanding the pool and opening up the boundaries of where we can recruit from and not recruit from. However, in this city, there's a problem with diversity within the Police Department and its ranks in terms of its supervisors and so on and its promotion aspects. But with diversity, the police department can really begin to look like what the city looks like, and we've had a problem, one, with recruitment of minorities, with minorities taking the police exam, the polygram, and all of that. And we have -- I have held hearing and I have spoken about it and other Council folks have spoken about it, that we need to reform that process of hiring and then putting our folks out into the act and into that process. But how do we assure diversity in recruitment aspects within the city? And, two, how do we assure that the process, again, is open and has been reformed, the process of testing, the process of going through 36 COMMITTEE ON LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Bill 970212 the whole application process that's -- those are things, I think, that need to happen if not before we implement something along these lines concurrently. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Well, I mean if you're taking about recruiting more minorities, I think probably the greatest example of an institution that is without pressure and has really been a model of diversity, I don't think you can get a better model than the U.S. Army, you just can't. Excuse me, I'm going to answer your question. I'm talking about how this bill 14 addresses recruiting on a military base where there would be a large minority pool. As to the second part of your question which deals with fairness of the application process, your points are well taken. I have previously spoken frankly on this issue, saying that I believe that a police force should and must reflect the community in which it serves. I am dedicated to that. However, I have said from day one, when you're talking about a lack of minorities within the rank structure, you have to allow the Police 37 COMMITTEE ON LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Bill 970212 Commissioner leeway in picking supervisory ranks and so if you're willing to help out in that regard, thank you very much.

You and I agree along those lines. I don't think we have a problem, but I think there is a problem in terms of the recruitment aspect. And since the bill 9 speaks for the civil service, not just the Police Department, you know, we have had during the last six years -- and I'm speaking in term of Latinos in the city government, there's actually been a decrease of Latinos employed within the civil service ranks in terms of city government. So obviously, the City of Philadelphia is not putting forward a program to reach out to all it's citizens. And I'm all in favor of trying to do that. I just want to establish a system that takes into account this situation and requires the diversity aspect. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Your point is well taken, and I don't disagree with it. Back in May when we opened up applications, I think there were five officers and a sergeant assigned to the recruitment union. Two 38 COMMITTEE ON LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Bill 970212 of those officers were Hispanic. I trained and assigned an additional two Hispanic officers, bringing the complement to four in the recruitment union. I'd like to go out specifically to the Hispanic community to recruit there because I think there is a dire need to get more Hispanics in the Philadelphia Police Department, so I have no disagreement with you.

Thank you. Councilman Cohen?

Let me speak as a World War II veterans who spent two years in the South Pacific. I went to the army from the Midwest because the federal agency for whom I was serving as an attorney had moved during World War II, at the beginning, to St. Louis, Missouri. I went into the army there and I have some question as to whether or not, in fact, army folks are necessarily the best recruits. It really depends on where they come from. The unit I entered and stayed with through my army career happened to consist mostly of farm folks. And I'm not sure they would make good police officers in an urban setting. 39 COMMITTEE ON LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Bill 970212

Councilman, I'm sorry. Just a technological problem. Are you saying "foreign" or "farm"?

Farm.

F-A-R-M.

I thought he said "foreign."

Midwest farmers.

These were nice young fellows, but they knew nothing about the cities, they thought cities were the center of Satan and just knew nothing about city life.

But then when we were in the army, most of the country was foreign. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Glad you brought that up.

Did you say "farm" or "foreign?" COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: You're showing your parochial bias there in both of your questions.

I was showing what? COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: A parochial bias. 40 COMMITTEE ON LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Bill 970212

Well, it's parochial in the whole concept of community police. Unless you say community policing is a parochial concept, I don't think I'm showing a bias. I've been in the Council since the sixties, and during that time, I went through the period when the police department said walking the beat was a waste time, that we should have motorized units. In driving through the area, you cover much more ground. Well, it's true that they covered much more ground but they lost a lot of contact with people in the community. And I've attended meeting after meeting where they discussed the need for having community policing and the need to have folks in the Philadelphia Police Department that didn't feel that they're in a strange environment when shifted from one part of the city to another. And I also think there's a question about whether the military service renders somebody who's well qualified for policing. I think it's one aspect, but I think we basically need people who know how to treat ordinary folk in the cities, who are mostly overwhelmingly 41 COMMITTEE ON LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Bill 970212 civilians. For all these reasons, we want to have the best possible police force. But as Councilman Ortiz said, it's got to represent the face of the city and the people have to welcome the police, and the police have to feel at home in an urban environment. Thank you.

Thank you. Councilman Kenney?

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. As the sponsor of the bill, I just wanted to make a few comments relative to the intention of the bill. In the recruitment area, I do agree with Commissioner Timoney and the administration that we need to enlarge the pool of qualified applicants. That doesn't mean there aren't enough qualified applicants, but the better the applicant, the better the police officer. The more qualified the applicant, the more qualified the police officer. The main goal for me in introducing this bill -- and Councilman Cohen mentioned that 42 COMMITTEE ON LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Bill 970212 we have a city of 1.5 million people. I would disagree with that; I think we are now a city of about 1.3 million people. And if the statistics are correct, it's an ever-declining number. So I would like to use employment opportunities, not only in the Police Department at every level, to not only seek out and find the best people, but to also get the double benefit of having prospective officers moving their families into Philadelphia. For example, if a person of a minority or non-minority background become a police officer or a member of the fire department or anywhere else, they can move their family from South Carolina, say, up to Philadelphia, to South Philadelphia, Mt. Airy or the Northeast. Not only do we get the most qualified applicant available, but we get a new family to move into our city. I think that's one of the major reasons why I did the bill in the first place. Secondly, the diversity issue. I agree with Councilman Ortiz that the Philadelphia Police Department and the city employment generally needs to be reflective of the types of ethnic 43 COMMITTEE ON LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Bill 970212 backgrounds and races of people who live here. As the Commissioner said in response to Cohen's question, the military is a place where minority individuals have the best opportunity to succeed and move ahead, regardless of the color of their skin. On the matter of merit, that's how people rise up through the ranks. A person for example, like Colin Powell is a perfect example of the way the military -- even though during World War II times it was terribly segregated -- black and Latinos can really succeed. I think we'll be getting a wonderful opportunity to get very good qualified people and have them move good, qualified families into our city neighborhoods, to become contributing members of our city. I wanted to say that as the sponsor of bill. Again, we won't be taking action today, but I just wanted to get this into the record.

Thank you. Any other questions? Councilman Nutter?

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 44 COMMITTEE ON LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Bill 970212 Commissioner, one item has to do with a previous statement you made that I wanted to make sure the record clear was for us, not to have a debate. You made mention of the U.S. military being a model organization of diversity and, in particular, the U.S. army. I think was your statement -- COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: What I'm saying is that almost in the last 10, years, they've 12 had diversity almost on a voluntary basis. 13

Well, improved. I 14 mean, I read some history books one time where it 15 said there was problems in the U.S. military and workforce. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: I recognize that that was the late forties, early fifties. But I'm talking in the last years, it's harder to find 20 a better institution within this country voluntarily through own affirmative actions.

We'll move that to the side. Let me ask this question: What efforts do we make today to have any contact with any of the various military operations that are either in 45 COMMITTEE ON LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Bill 970212 the city or near the city or various recruiting officers, you know, whether they just do intake or never see folks on their way back out or coming back into civilian life, but what do we do with regard to college and units in the city or nearby suburbs today? What are our recruitment efforts there. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: I asked that point and the answer was not satisfactory. No 11 matter what happens in regards to legislation, the recruitment unit needs to be completely revamped, and those issues will be addressed.

I hear that either by newspaper accounts or one completely independent, one entity that's housed within the Police Department that indicated that there are problems in recruitment, not just by way of applicant pool, but you've got race issues. And the test itself is in question. You did raise the issue and I think we happen to share same opinion about your ability or inability to move people especially at the captain-and-above level. I've shared this with Councilman Kenney. We don't have a big dispute in 46 COMMITTEE ON LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Bill 970212 between us. But I would probably be much more open to this discussion and other discussions in an environment after I know what your plans are, not only for the recruitment union but what you think. I've read your comments but I'd like to know where you really are on raising the recruitment age, what we are doing with the tests, what have we done with the recruitment union, are there cutoff points, do you not take people who tested below a certain level. I mean, there are probably a dozen or so issues. This is just one of them and an important one, but you've got a whole array of things that impact on your ability to run the department. My concern is that this one issue is being dealt with in isolation as compared with most of the other issues. And quite honestly, I'd be more interested in discussing them as a whole. It seems to me they all affect each other. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Certain things are completely within my purview, so I am moving along things within my purview, regardless of what happens in other parts of the city. Where I'm the 47 COMMITTEE ON LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Bill 970212 sole purview, I'm raising the educational standards at the academy, and it will affect the new class coming in November 16th. This class I will personally speak to in regards to what would be expected of them.

What are you changing, their physical requirements? COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Right, and the educational requirements of the Academy's class will be expanded by some weeks. The way they're trained will be different.

Okay. Your response to one of my colleagues was also that Baltimore and Washington are up here trying to recruit some of our folks. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Right.

Do you have any particular details on their success and what it is that they're offering or chasing after that we apparently are not offering? I mean, are we losing people to those places? COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: This came up in a discussion in June, and it was kind of --

Maybe they were 48 COMMITTEE ON LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Bill 970212 just trying to make you nervous. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: There was a good deal of bantering. Tom Frazier, who's a good friend of mine, and Chuck Ramsey, I mean we've been aware of this for the last year and a half. When I say "we," I mean people in policing have been aware of this crisis that's been developing. And if you look at the numbers, they're pretty consistent all over, and the numbers are also consistent that no matter how you increase the pool, you usual wind up, from city to city, hiring one out of ten. That seems to be the general rule, one out of nine here, one out of ten in New York. So you really need to pull backwards. So, for example, just doing the numbers, if only 2300 people took the exam, we were looking to hire 400 off that list, we only wind up with 230 candidates. New York City is lucky to hire 2,000 officers. To get that number, they needed at least 20,000 applicants. They got 4,000, so they came up with 1600 short.

My last question for today. At some point in time, Commissioner, I 49 COMMITTEE ON LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Bill 970212 think it would be very helpful to me and my colleagues, if not the public at large, if you would be in a position to give any kind of response even in, I guess, an executive summary fashion to either or both the recent reports that came out both by the Committee of 70 and the Integrity Accountability Office, whether on a particular item of discussion or other issues that have been raised in those reports. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: I think the appropriates forum for that would be an executive session.

Fine, thank you.

Thank you, Councilman. Any other witnesses or do any other Councilpeople want to talk to this witness? (No response.)

If not, thank you, Commissioner. Thanks for coming. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Thank you.

Our next witness is -- we'll call Ken Rocks or Rich Costello.

Good morning, Mr. Chairman, 50 COMMITTEE ON LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Bill 970212 Members of City Council, committee members, my name is Kenneth Rocks. I'm the Vice President of the Fraternal Order of Police.

For the record, Councilwoman Clark has just entered the chamber.

What I bring here with me is 27 years of experience as a Philadelphia police officer, 48 years of experience as a resident of this city, lifelong. I was educated in the schools here, the parochial schools. And I served in the military. What I want to do is in ways disagree with Councilman Cohen. Because I went into the service in 1967. I got out in 1970 as a member of the 82nd Airborne Division, served overseas, served in Vietnam for a period of months, went 18 back and returned to the 82nd Airborne Division. , Baltimore, Maryland. S. Marshals FBI Border Patrol, the 82nd Airborne Division, and was employed in various law 51 COMMITTEE ON LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Bill 970212 enforcement functions. I chose to come back to Philadelphia and start a law enforcement career. C. to help control riots that occurred there as a result of the death of Martin Luther King, so we were trained not only in combat operations, jungle conditions, cold weather areas, mountain training, but we also trained for riot control. So that disspells the theory that Councilman Cohen had. But in the military, in law enforcement functions, combat, arms, and all administration functions, it's just like a city within a base. A military base is similar to that of a city, and I think that the City of Philadelphia and its citizens could seek the best from the military, because right now, we have good recruits but we're always trying or striving to seek better and ultimately get the best in the Philadelphia Police Department. You're losing focus of what the mission of this department is. You're going to hire 52 COMMITTEE ON LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Bill 970212 people who are going to be charged with the responsibilities to protect life and property. More importantly, under certain conditions of the law, they would have the right to take that life, and that's a very, very big responsibility that we have. We have the right under the law to stop somebody's freedom, and that's something that's precious. And from my military background, I know how precious freedom is because of the military history where we have strived and fought to protect the freedom that we have and enjoy not only here in Philadelphia, but in this great country of ours. The quality and quantity of recruits I've experienced in my lifetime in this city, I'm seeing serious reduction of citizens in this city since 27 years since I started as a police officer at 55th and Pine, I've seen a decline in the population. When you see a decline in the population, you see a decline in the work pool. And if we just want to hire unemployed, we'll just put a badge on them, put a gun on their hip, and charge them with the responsibility to enforce the 53 COMMITTEE ON LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Bill 970212 laws. I think we're all being short-sighted because it's not about employing the unemployed; it's about hiring the best possible people. And if we don't hire the best possible people in this recruitment process, both within the city and outside the city, I would even advocate not only going to the military, but also going on college campuses because at the University of Pennsylvania, we have people that come to this fine institution from all over the country, and they don't get credit for their time on that college campus as residency because, just like the military, you have a home of record that you have. So this is an opportunity that we could seek the best. Not that we're not getting good people -- we are getting good applicants, but shouldn't with we try to improve the better? That's one of the things that I heard the commissioner talk about, the recruitment process, the training process. But the thing that I bring to this Council in my testimony is not a prepared statement; I bring my experience as a citizen, I bring my experience as a police officer, and I 54 COMMITTEE ON LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Bill 970212 bring my experience as a representative of those police officers.

Every time I pick up the paper and read the criticisms of the existing police officers we have, I cringe because if we're criticizing our police department, our police officers as to the quality of their performance, then we should hold someone accountability because who hired these individual? And if these individuals are so bad, why are they still there? And what have we done, if anything, to improve them over the years? What have we done to improve the training. We ask for more time so that we're able to reject 'em easier. Rejection is failure. And are we going to continue to fail? And as a military person, and I see the need for that personal discipline, the internal discipline of the police department being a quasi-military organization requires you don't ask somebody to do something in a combat situation. And more and more, we're seeing our officers are thrust into those situations. The dangers on the streets are ever increasing. There's more police officers that are 55 COMMITTEE ON LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Bill 970212 being fired upon than when I was a young police officer. And I was trained how to react when fired upon. But more and more of these individuals are not. And it would bring a better quality of individual. And as Councilman Kenney said, I think the whole idea is, is to relocate people here because we have -- I believe at one time when I come on the police department, we had over two million people. I remember riding around in this city in a police car when they were read and not seeing as many abandoned houses as we see now. I remember handling jobs in certain neighborhoods in North Philadelphia, where people lived there when. And I ride down those same streets today and I see the vacant houses. So somewhere along the line, we're all not doing something right. And this may not be the answer to everybody's question because we do approve in the Fraternal Order of Police of the diversity of the people. It's important that we have Spanish-speaking officers dealing with Spanish-speaking citizens because it --

And with 56 COMMITTEE ON LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Bill 970212 everybody.

With everybody.

With everybody.

Pardon?

With Spanish-speak officers and dealing with everybody.

Well, that too, that too. I was getting to that Councilman. Thanks for correcting me and speeding me along in my testimony.

Excuse me. I have to go.

He's done with his statement.

I have to go pick up my son at prekinder. But there's a resolution 18 that we're not going to be hearing today that we'll be hearing at another date, and I have asked the Personnel Department for certain information along those lines, and we still have not gotten it. But, Kenny, I agree with a lot of what you said today.

Thank you, Councilman. 57 COMMITTEE ON LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Bill 970212 Go ahead, Mr. Rocks.

And that will basically conclude the testimony that I have. I hope the Council will have the courage to strive forward because if we could go outside the City and waive residency requirements for the leader of the Police Department, then why can't we do it for police officers? And that's a question that always stuck in my mind. And it always disturbed me when the former Chief of Staff, David Cohen, made a statement, and this was shortly after the salaries of recruited police officers were slashed by $6,000 that we've got to increase the salaries in order to attract top-notch people. But he wasn't talking about police officers. He was talking about the number crunchers and the bureaucrats that control the government. But here we're talking about people that control the lives, control the freedom, and control the quality of life in our city. And I thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Rocks. 58 COMMITTEE ON LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Bill 970212 Any questions for this witness? (No questions.)

None of my colleagues have questions? Councilwoman Clark, do you have a question for this witness?

I did. I'm somewhat concerned about extending the length of this hearing.

Please don't.

But I am concerned also. My husband was in at 82nd. The 82nd was an elite force, wasn't it?

Yes, it was.

And people came there from everywhere and were benefitted from the training. You came from Philadelphia and brought your Philadelphia background to it. So they didn't make you out a whole cloth; you were an apt pupil when you got there, weren't you?

Yes.

And there are lots of apt people like you from Philadelphia today. We don't have to go to the corn fields the Iowa, 59 COMMITTEE ON LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Bill 970212 Nebraska, or Idaho to find people for whom this is a challenging position who could make a good contribution; isn't that correct?

Well, that's where I could probably start to disagree with you, Councilwoman, being that I've been a police officer for 27 years.

So was my husband a police officer.

And we got to look at -- you know, it's easy to hire anybody for certain jobs within city government, you know, and I can't dispute that. You know, in some jobs, you need a strong back. And in some jobs you, need qualifications like a degree in accounting if you want to be an accountant. If you want to be in the city solicitor's office, you need a degree in law.

What do you need to be a police officer?

To be a police officer, you need to have compassion.

How do you measure 60 COMMITTEE ON LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Bill 970212 that?

Compassion? Because you feel for the victim.

I know what it is but I --

That's who we deal with. We not only deal with --

Sir, sir, wait a minute, wait, wait. This is not going to be adversarial between you and me; we're going to have a discussion, it's not going to be a fight. My question to you is: How do you measure compensation?

How do you measure compassion?

Yes. You say a person --

I think you have to walk in an experienced police officer's shoes to measure the compassion that they feel, not only for the victim -- and I don't think -- you know, I believe that with my experience as a police officer, I could go to any metropolitan area or any -- any town with a -- 61 COMMITTEE ON LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Bill 970212

Mr. Rocks --

That's surrounded by corn fields and perform the same function.

Mr. Rocks, forgive me. I don't want to take you back through your testimony because I thought it was fine testimony. But the situation that we are proposing, you and me now, is in an interview situation where an interviewer is trying to decide whether a person is qualified to be a police officer; isn't that correct?

That's correct.

Okay. It even goes a step forward; it goes to which people should apply for a police officer position in Philadelphia; isn't that correct?

That's correct.

Now, when you say that a police officer must exhibit compassion, I ask you how the interviewer determines that the applicant has compassion? You don't have a way knowing that.

Well, you cut me off, Madame Councilwoman before I was finished my 62 COMMITTEE ON LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Bill 970212 statement. Compassion is just one of the many qualifications that I was going to start to read off that necessitate that of a police officer.

But it's one that you have no hard way of measuring. It is a gut feeling; either he has it or he doesn't have it. But you can't say he's got a third compassion or a half, can you?

There are -- there are --

It's a feeling.

There are psychological tests that are conducted in various cities around the country, and we have psychological testing for our officers that go into a SWAT program. And there are psychological tests that could judge whether or not you are a humane type of a thinking individual --

Are those tests --

-- or an overly aggressive individual --

Are those tests administered in advance of the interview?

Yes, they are. In the 63 COMMITTEE ON LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Bill 970212 Police Department, they are.

So that everybody's who's sitting at the interview table at least has passed all those tests, hasn't he or she.

Right, right. If we want to talk about bare qualifications, then what we should is, we should recruit outside of unemployment lines. And if the citizens of this city --

I'm sorry, I didn't understand.

Why don't we recruit police officers from right outside the unemployment offices? Do we want that? These are police officers. You've got to understand, Madame Councilwoman --

I don't understand your comment. You mean you should stand --

Could I make a decision in a split second that's reviewed by the Supreme Court of the United States? I may write a document, and in the course of writing that document, it's going to be reviewed by some of the 64 COMMITTEE ON LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Bill 970212 best legal minds in this country. And don't you think that I should be prepared adequately? Or should I be more prepared, or should you seek the best? If you want adequacy --

What has that got to do with determining compassion --

-- then you'll just get what you asked for.

-- in an interview situation? What does that have to do? You're all the way up to rewriting a Supreme Court decision. I only ask you --

That's what happens.

I only ask you how you or I or any interviewer can determine with any degree of accuracy whether an interviewee is compassionate, and I am going to suggest to you that there are no hard, reliable indicators. It's a gut feeling.

In that -- my background is in law enforcement.

And my background is in law. 65 COMMITTEE ON LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Bill 970212

I'll have to defer to the experts. And if that's the position, then I can't adequately argue that.

Okay.

But I could argue from my experience of 27 years as a police officer. And I'm not -- I'm not speaking against hiring citizens of the City. I'm a lifelong citizen of the City.

You are the best example of why we should hire for from Philadelphia. For 27 years, you have served us well, and you are a Philadelphian. So you are our best example of why we should hire Philadelphians.

Well, I can't argue with that. (Laughter.)

I guess you can't, I guess you can't.

Let's leave it that you're a good guy, Ken.

I guess you got my ego, Councilwoman.

Mr. Rocks, 66 COMMITTEE ON LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Bill 970212 Mr. Rocks, much of what you said, as you well know, I agree with. I don't think there's a member of City Council in the last 30 years that has been stronger on behalf of training, of fine salaries, of good salaries, good pension rights, of every right that every worker ought to enjoy. Now that's totally different. Were those corrections made, adequate training programs, I think you'd find here in the pool from the City of Philadelphia, just like yourself, very wonderful examples of why Philadelphians make good police officers. We don't make up for the defects in the system by going outside the city to hire; we make up for those defects by correcting them here in the City. That's why on the pension that's coming before us we, had discussion on. We're trying to correct the problems of retirees, we're trying to correct the problems of retirees all throughout the City. But the way is not to run away from the problems that we have here in the City, but to deal with them in a fair an equitable way and that we -- 67 COMMITTEE ON LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Bill 970212

That I agree with, Councilman.

And in that you found this City Council very, very supportive of the patrolmen, the firemen, and other employees.

That I agree with. And as you know too, in city government, there's always been waivers granted for certain civil service positions, and it's a built-in within the civil service and the residency requirement to do those waivers. When PGH was alive and well, the fine hospital that it was, most of the medical staff there, the nurses and the doctors, had waivers because there was an insufficient pool of City residents that wanted to work in those institutions.

I don't think --

And that is a fact. Although we don't have that problem anymore --

I don't think you really want to be understood as saying that in Philadelphia, we don't have an adequate pool. I believe we have a fully adequate pool of folks who 68 COMMITTEE ON LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Bill 970212 could become excellent, outstanding officers, given the proper training and if we had the right outreach program to reach them.

Okay.

I'm going to agree with that.

Any other questions from the committee? Councilman Kenney?

I appreciate being recognized. I just don't want to lose sight on one of the primary reasons of why I introduced this bill. I think we should be using all City employment opportunities as an opportunity to attract and bring in new families to our communities of every U.N. color and background because it is estimated that between 4 and 500 per month are continuing to leave the City. We would be getting the double benefit of having good competent people that we are attracting; and at the same time, having that family from South Carolina or from Arizona or from Florida or Michigan move their families into South 69 COMMITTEE ON LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Bill 970212 Philadelphia, Mt. Airy, the Northeast, and anywhere else in this city. And that's, again, one of the primary reasons. It's not the pool of applicants or the training or all the issues that need to be resolved; it's the use of employment resources to attract new families to our neighborhoods.

Respectfully, if I may be heard on that?

Yes. I recognize Councilwoman Clark.

There is probably no more insulting thing to have happen to you in the workforce than to have your opportunity taken by a newcomer. I've had it happen to me just often enough to be offended where I've been baby stepping along, waiting for my chance, and then here comes some guy from "Podunk, Iowa" who gets to the head of the line and takes my opportunity. So, respectfully, I would say that a person coming in gets no greater points than the person who has been in Philadelphia, living in South Philly and Mayfair and North Philly. 70 COMMITTEE ON LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Bill 970212 All of us, those of us who, by our staying here, paying the taxes, bearing the burden of being an urban citizen at a time when suburbia is the place to be, we should not then pay an additional penalty by going in search of someone who didn't do what we've done.

Well, we're not -- this bill is not asking anyone to pay a penalty or giving anyone an advantage. Basically, you're competing on an equal footing with someone who is going to make a commitment to --

Well --

Let me finish. To move into this city, to pay those taxes, to raise their children, to participate in community life, and to be new residents.

And when he has done that for whatever our present residential requirement is, then he or she can compete on the same footing. But --

They're not going to do that.

Well, then I suppose we're going to have to do without them. 71 COMMITTEE ON LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Bill 970212

And I would respectfully --

I am not willing -- I am not willing -- I am not willing to take away whatever benefit comes from residency and wave a carrot to somebody who might come. If they want to be a Philadelphian and they want to have benefit of civil service positions in Philadelphia, then come and do what Philadelphians have done -- what you have done and what I have done.

And I would totally and respectfully --

I would like to throw two words at you, Madame Chairman.

Hold on, hold on one second.

Kevin Tucker and John Timoney. They took my position.

Oh, now we're not going to argue your special problem.

Well, we could. It's the same analogy.

Although I'm sure 72 COMMITTEE ON LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Bill 970212 we could make some interesting points.

Point of order, Councilwoman, point of order.

But the point here is --

I think we're losing sight of where we're going here. The Councilwoman's point is well taken and I would ask her to finish up here. Councilman Kenney's point was also well taken. I think I agree with Councilman Kenney and with what he's trying to do here, Councilwoman, and you know this process much better than me. We will vote on that and we will hash that around.

Right.

I just want to say one thing. As long as we're not paying for the relocation cost, I think it's a good thing that Councilman Kenney is bringing up here.

I just believe that 20 years ago, 30 years ago when this city had two million people or thereabouts, we were in a position of a buyer's market. Today, with all of the constraints and 73 COMMITTEE ON LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Bill 970212 pressures and attractions for good people throughout the country, I think, respectfully, it is shortsighted to limit us to just the people who are living here. If we have the added benefit of gaining a new family when we're losing them by the scores every month.

How far are you willing to go with that? Is there anything that requires --

Can I answer --

Now, wait a minute; don't answer it till I ask you. Is there anything that requires city residency in your mind.

Employment.

Employment.

Yes. If you are a City employee, you should live in the city. If you are a teacher, you should live in the city. Any City employee should live in the city.

Including police officers?

Yes, ma'am.

Who presently live 74 COMMITTEE ON LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Bill 970212 in Podunk, Iowa?

Yes, ma'am, if they're willing to relocate here and live in our city, yes.

Yes, they have to come here.

I want them, I want them to come here and live here and increase our tax base and increase our population.

They have to promise to move here.

Well, you substituted the promise to move here with the requirement you have you've already lived here; is that correct?

Correct.

And that's where you and I are having a nonagreement. It's a friendly nonagreement.

Yes, yes.

It is a nonagreement nonetheless.

Yes, ma'am. Yes, ma'am. 75 COMMITTEE ON LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Bill 970212

I won't burden this record any further.

Thank you, ma'am.

I think my point's clear and so is yours.

Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Rocks. I'm sorry. Councilman Nutter for Mr. Rocks. Ken, you're not getting away that fast. Councilman Nutter has one short -- I'm sure one short question.

Hi. Mr. Rocks, thank you. I don't think we'll engage in much of a discussion, but I just wanted to ask you, based on your experience and the things that you've seen, what would you say are the top five problems in recruiting high-quality people to the Philadelphia Police Department today?

Number one would be salary. Working conditions.

Where do we rank in salary as compared to the other major cities of 76 COMMITTEE ON LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Bill 970212 the country?

If you take the largest 4 cities, we're probably 32. 5

Take the 20 largest 6 cities, we're 32? 7

We're 32? 8

We are -- okay, just 9 measuring the -- 10

Are we talking 11 about starting salary or average officer's 12 salary? Which analysis are we using? 13

Full paid police officers. 14

Full paid -- 15

After ten years of 16 service. 17 We presented all this information in 18 our recent collective-bargaining arbitration 19 hearings. And we at one time, back in 1979, we 20 were the highest paid police officers in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania.

All right.

Okay? Right now, we are, of all the surrounding counties and townships, we are the lowest paid, we're paid lower than the 77 COMMITTEE ON LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Bill 970212 city of Pittsburgh and the city of -- and the state police. At one time, we were the lead.

How do we rank as compared to the top ten cities in the country by population?

We're number 11. All's you have to do is take the cities where the FBI studies, the crime analysis, and we come out as the safest city, which is debatable right now, as to the figures that were utilized. But we are the lowest paid of all those cities.

All right, so salary. What else?

Working conditions. And that's facilities. If you looked around at the facilities, which I would include training, we are probably the last people to want to know about decisions that affect how we perform our job as far as stop-and-search, seizure of evidence.

Yeah, I understand that but, I mean, how does that affect the --

Which is training.

How does that 78 COMMITTEE ON LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Bill 970212 affect a recruit? A recruit wouldn't know about all that stuff.

Well, they should be taught that. They should be taught that at the entry- level academy. I don't think there's leadership training; it's provided inadequate for the recruits.

Is that number 3? Or is that a part of working conditions?

No, that's all of number 2.

Okay, what's number 3?

Number 3 would be the. . . probably the supervision within the department, and the lack thereof --

Okay. And --

-- of leadership, of people support, the necessary support network for a young officer on the street, you know, feeling isolated and alone when they make a decision and they end up headlines in the media.

Right, and this affect recruitment?

Well, that affects -- you 79 COMMITTEE ON LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Bill 970212 know, because people would say -- because this is what the feedback I get from people that say, Why should I become a Philadelphia police officer when I make an error in judgment or something like that, I end up being a political pawn in a bigger game of things? And that's what happens in big cities.

All right.

So, you know, it's a detriment.

Right, gotcha.

You know, every time you see a police officer run through. Plus the corruption within the department and the media exposure. Although I don't -- and I'm not in favor of -- I think corruption should be --

You don't think corruption should be exposed?

But when you lower standards or permit standards to be lowered, then that's what you're going to attract. You're not going to attract the high achievers. And the high achiever is going to be reluctant to come into the Police Department. 80 COMMITTEE ON LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Bill 970212

In what ways have the standards been lowered?

With the salary. Because you're not attracting the best possible candidates. People look at that and say, Why should I take a career or accept a career in law enforcement at this starting salary when I could go somewhere else and make a better salary and have a better possibility of getting promoted up rather than going through a political system.

So you think that there is a direct correlation between salary and corruption?

And recruitment, most definitely, most definitely. I'd like to ask you a question.

Why are --

How many graduates of St. Joe's Prep have we attracted to the Police Department recently?

Why aren't most of the officers -- (Unintelligible; parties speaking over each other.) 81 COMMITTEE ON LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Bill 970212

I'm sorry?

How many graduates of the school that you graduated from, Councilman, St. Joe's Prep, did we attract to the Philadelphia Police Department recently?

How many did you ever attract?

Well, I don't know. I think about 96, 98 percent of the Prep grads go to college, so I don't know if they're going to leave high school, then just go to Philly P.D., or maybe they'll go --

And then when they leave college, they don't come to Philly P.D. Either, so it --

I'm not in the recruitment office.

Neither am I.

But if you say that there is a correlation between salary and corruption --

He didn't say that.

And recruitment. 82 COMMITTEE ON LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Bill 970212

I think I said the correlation is between lower standards and corruption.

Lower standards and corruption, and you said one of the lower standards was salary.

Right.

Right? So you got lower standards, corruption, salary. And so you're saying that when you lower the standards by lowering the salary, you get a less qualified officer who potentially gets into corruption.

No, I don't think I said that.

I'm just trying to follow -- okay.

I said that what you tend to do is, you tend to attract those people that are not considered -- or what one could consider an achiever.

Right.

And I think that if you wanted to make decisions to see attract that type 83 COMMITTEE ON LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Bill 970212 of a recruit, then that's your decision.

Right.

But I'm offering my opinion, and I think that we should go after a higher quality of recruit from within. Or if we can't find them within, then go outside to find them. That may not cure all the problems.

Right.

But I think that what you would start to do is, you would start to improve the quality of police officer within the department.

Right.

And, hopefully, the results will show forth in not only the Police Department, their treatment to the community, you know the ingenuity within the Department.

Sure.

Their ability to solve crimes. I mean, you know, we're getting sued now because people don't like the way police officers answer a 9-1-1 call, because their daughter ended up getting to be a victim of 84 COMMITTEE ON LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Bill 970212 homicide.

Sure.

You know, in the course of my career, I handled two assignments such as that, to where, you know, I went and I knocked on the door, I interviewed the witness around there and said, Who called, who called? And nobody wants to get involved, so you say, Well, what should I do? Should we kick the door in, you know, to find out if we're going to find a dead body? Or are we going to find just somebody could have been watching a scary movie and screamed, or somebody could have been arguing, and when the police come, they stopped. I mean, I don't have a crystal ball. But, you know, but we get -- we get sued for that.

Right. I assume that both of -- all of our respective attorneys might encourage us to not get into the particulars of that case since it's apparently an open lawsuit, and I don't want to particularly talk about that. I've got salary, working conditions, supervision, and corruption as some of the leading 85 COMMITTEE ON LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Bill 970212 factors that contribute to our recruitment problem.

And the advancement. The advancement would have to be included there, and it would really be dependent on how high you put it, but that's an important part of anybody that would be considering a career.

Right, okay. And lastly, is it your -- do you believe that the quality of the current recruits or the recent recruits is less than or lower than what it has been in the past?

It's good, I believe it's good. We could probably make the quality of recruit better by improving the training, making the training longer, doing some things there by improving training. And that should be -- regardless of what this Council does, that should be a priority on somebody's agenda.

Right I think we heard -- I'm not sure if you were here. The Police Commissioner seemed to indicate --

Yes, I did. 86 COMMITTEE ON LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Bill 970212

Okay. He was talking about lengthening. Okay, thank you.

Councilman, thank you very much. No other questions for this witness, okay. (Les Yost comes forward.)

The next witness, please state your name for the record, sir.

My name is Les Yost. It's spelled L-E-S. And my last name is spelled Y-O-S-T. I'm the President from the Philadelphia Firefighters Union, and I'm here in support of Bill 970212. Up till now, it's been -- or it seemed like it was a bill just for police. It's for all City employees. And I believe that -- some of the questions that went before us, I believe that the military is diverse, and I believe that there are men and women in the military. And I believe that the federal court orders that stand with regard to hiring in the City of Philadelphia are fine and will stay, and 87 COMMITTEE ON LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Bill 970212 the that the diversity in the different City departments will stay the same as part of the federal court orders or consent decrees. We need men and women on the Philadelphia Fire Department that are the very best because of the technical dangers that we face. And I believe that the bill addresses that. It does allow us to hire the very best. And like the other departments, and like the Philadelphia Police Department that was spoken of, the numbers of people that are being recruited to take our exam have gone down dramatically. When I took it years ago, it was over 20,000 people that took that exam. Today, they have in the number of -- in the high 3,000s. We need to have a bigger base to collect from, and we will get better quality people in the Fire Department. So I speak in favor of the bill and I'll try and be as short as possible.

Thank you. Any questions for Mr. Yost from the committee. (No questions.)

Seeing none, 88 COMMITTEE ON LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Bill 970212 you're excused, sir.

Thank you.

And that's the last witness -- no. Linda? I'm sorry, almost forgot her. One more witness. (Linda Seyda comes forward.)

Linda, the reason I made you last is because I want you to absorb all of this.

I appreciate it.

And get it all in so that you can answer all the questions that everyone had. Please state your name for the record, please.

I am Linda Seyda, the Personnel Director for the City of Philadelphia. Joining me at the table this morning is Marilyn Hawker, who is my executive assistant. Good morning, Committee Chairman Mariano and members of the Committee on Labor and Civil Service. I am pleased to be here this morning to present testimony on Bill No. 970212. This bill will amend The Philadelphia 89 COMMITTEE ON LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Bill 970212 Code to permit former U.S. military personnel to be appointed to the civil service positions in the City. These appointees would not be required to meet the City's residency requirements on the original date of employment but would be required to become bona fide residents within six months of appointment and to maintain residency in the City. The Personnel Department supports this bill as it applies to the recruitment of police officers hired in Philadelphia. Passage of an amended version of this bill would permit the City to actively recruit at selected military installations to encourage qualified service personnel to work in the Philadelphia Police Department upon discharge from the service. We do not believe that a similar relaxation of the residency requirement is necessary for all new City employees. As our traditional pool from which we recruit for police officers has diminished over the years, we believe that looking to recently-separated military personnel is an advantageous way of expanding our local recruitment pool. It is our belief that utilizing 90 COMMITTEE ON LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Bill 970212 this recruitment source will provide the City with a labor pool that is not only physically fit but has also benefitted from a structured and disciplined background. Former military personnel represent a very diverse recruitment source. Recent demographic studies show that 71. 7 percent of all Department of Defense uniformed personnel are minorities, 13.4 are female. Of those enlisted persons currently serving in the military, enlisting a home address in Pennsylvania, 13 percent are minorities and 15 percent are females. 14 To facilitate the recruitment process, 15 the Personnel Department has established a client 16 relationship with the Defense Outplacement Referral System. This organization will provide to us, upon request and at no cost, resumes of recently-separated military personnel who list a local home address within a 24-hour time period. We are also in the process of exploring other recruitment options as well if this bill is passed. This concludes my prepared testimony. I am pleased to answer any questions that you may 91 COMMITTEE ON LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Bill 970212 have.

Thank you. Councilman Cohen?

First, just one technical question. I wasn't sure what you said when you referred to a 24-hour time period. I heard every word, but I couldn't understand it so maybe I missed something.

The Defense Outplacement Referral System is an organization that's part of the Department of Defense.

I understand that part of it.

And that organization will, within a 24-hour period, provide to us or any other employer resumes of recently-separated military personnel.

No matter where they may have lived? I'm just confused. You made a statement before about people with Pennsylvania addresses. Is it limited to that, or is the information that they will give you nationwide?

It depends on -- they will 92 COMMITTEE ON LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Bill 970212 provide it any way that you ask for it. It is up to the employer to determine the parameters so that we could ask for resumes only from Pennsylvania people, or we could ask for resumes from people who --

Did you have a proposal with that in your statement? All I'm trying to do is get information.

Certainly.

I didn't understand what you were saying. All I want to know is, what was your position on that point? Or are you taking no position as to where they could come from?

Well, we would -- we would support targeted recruitment at military installations where there's a diverse population and where the background and experience of the military personnel are such that they would be advantageous or good candidates for the City of Philadelphia. For example, I would anticipate that we would perhaps want to look at people who are coming out of the military police, for example. 93 COMMITTEE ON LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Bill 970212

Without respect to geographic location? That's what I'm trying to just find out, what it is you're advocating.

Potentially. I mean, I think we have to take a look at what those numbers are and, you know, what the possibilities are. We don't have a definite position at this point in time. We don't have enough information, quite frankly, at this point in time to say that we would want resumes from every state.

I can understand that. All I was trying to find out is what it was you were saying.

Right.

I was not take any position whatsoever on the matter. I just wanted to know what your position was. And as of now, you say there isn't enough information and you don't know whether there would be any geographic limitations. Is that an accurate statement?

Yeah, for all intents and purposes, yes. 94 COMMITTEE ON LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Bill 970212

All right. I'm going to yield to Councilwoman Clark for a minute to get further clarification..

Miss Saida, under the defense outplacement service that you offer us, that you described in your testimony, is it possible and would it be advisable for you, as Personnel Director for the City of Philadelphia, to request the biographical sketches of active military persons in the zip code 191? Could you be that specific? That's Philadelphia exclusively.

That would be possible, yes.

Would you ever consider doing it?

Yes, absolutely.

Our present rules would require it, wouldn't they?

That's correct.

Thank you. I have no further questions.

Miss Seyda, just for your information, previously, Councilman Kenney 95 COMMITTEE ON LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Bill 970212 stated that he was withdrawing this bill and will substitute another bill this coming Thursday. The substitution he referred to was to remove the word "former" on line 2 of the title so that whatever the bill said, it would only relate to current United States military service personnel, not former. Now, there is nothing in this bill that limits it to police officers. This bill would provide for the waiver of residency requirements across the whole civil service. Is that right Councilman Kenney? I don't want to argue it; I just want to know what the --

If I can, I'll clarify it.

Can I recognize Councilman Kenney. He want to answer it.

On Thursday, what I will do is introduce two pieces of legislation. One will be police only; and the other will be full civil service. So if the opportunity to do the full civil service is available, I will take that 96 COMMITTEE ON LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Bill 970212 option; if it's only police, and that's available, I'll take that option. But I'll introduce both bills.

The third option would be not to choose either of the two options.

Yes, that's always an option.

Okay. I just wanted you to know that because when you read the title, you read the word "former," and that's not going to be the bill that we're going to be considering. It will relate to current.

Neither of the bills will require former.

Both will be -- both bills will be active military personnel.

And we will support the bill, the amended bill, for Philadelphia police personnel.

No, don't do that 'cause you don't know --

Don't do nothing yet till we see it, all right?

Don't do that; 97 COMMITTEE ON LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Bill 970212 wait till you see it.

But her statement did state that the City administration currently supported a waiver only for the Police Department; is that right?

That is correct.

And that as to other departments, the City saw no need for any consideration of waiver at this point.

That is correct.

I think that was in your statement.

That is correct.

No other questions? Anyone else have any questions for this witness? (No further questions.)

Seeing none, we will adjourn the public hearing of the Committee on Labor and Civil Service and go right into a public meeting. - - -

We're going right into the public meeting for Labor and Civil 98 COMMITTEE ON LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Bill 970212 Service to take action on Bill No. 960598. The clerk will read the number and the bill. And then Councilman Cohen has something.

Bill No. 960598, an ordinance amending the Retirement System Ordinance, approved December 3, 1956, and the retirement system ordinance approved April 22, 1987, as amended, by redefining "average final compensation" for certain employees in positions which cannot be represented by a union by revising the base compensation upon which retirement benefits shall be computed.

Councilman Cohen? I'd like to recognize Councilman Cohen.

Mr. Chairman, I move that Bill No. 960598 be amended by adding a new Section 3 to the end of the current bill. The new Section 3 would read: "Section 3, period. This ordinance 21 shall apply fully to existing employees so that average final compensation shall be calculated for such employees with respect to their entire period of employment, starting from their first date of employment with the City." 99 COMMITTEE ON LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Bill 970212 I move the adoption of the amendment, Mr. Chairman. (Duly seconded.)

So noted that the bill has been moved and seconded. I would like to go for a vote for the amendment, we're going to vote on the amendment first. Councilwoman? I'm sorry, Councilman Nutter, did you get the amendment?

No, I didn't, Mr. Chairman.

Well, there was a lot of discussion on this. As the bill is written now, it applies only prospectively.

Right.

So that current employees, no matter how close they are to retirement, could not get the full benefits of the bill unless they work for three full years under existing pension requirements. This would give current employees who are going to retire within the three-year period the right to get the full benefits of this legislation. 100 COMMITTEE ON LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Bill 970212

I'm just asking the question; I don't want to debate the point for the moment.

Yes.

Is this amendment different than -- does this do something different to the bill than was explained by the Finance Director when I asked him in the example of the 20-year employee, when I talked about their service at years 10, 11 and 12, and that their salary was $25,000, but they may have done overtime in those three years and that the pension would be calculated on a $35,000 figure. The finance director responded, or Mr. Kidwell responded, that the bill only applied to their prospective years of service, that they were not going back to capture those years of 10, 11, and 12. He said that people would have to work more years to be able to capture the three highest years and the average. What I am asking you now is: Does this amendment, in fact, do what I asked the Finance Director, does it do? To which he responded no. 25 Does this amendment, in fact, go back and capture 101 COMMITTEE ON LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Bill 970212 those years in my example of 10, 11, and 12 in order to calculate that person's pension?

This amendment, in fact, does not in fact deal with that situation, but let's the situation be interpreted as it is currently interpreted. The precise answer to the example you give would be that whatever benefits, whatever benefits the employee would have if he retired three years from now, however that section that you talked to Mr. Kidwell about would be interpreted, that the straight provisions of pensions would apply. One of them -- there are many provisions that would apply.

Excuse me, Councilman.

One of them applies to everybody. Whoever works for the City under the regular pension law, the full three years are calculated, the full three years at the highest level. It's true today, under the pension system, it's not the last three years, it's the three highest-paid years. 102 COMMITTEE ON LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Bill 970212

Right.

It would not change that at all.

It's based on that.

Okay.

Yeah. Well, that would remain in effect, and we're not seeking any change at all in that.

Councilman, just a point of information here. I just conferred with City Council Attorney Mr. Shapiro, and we would have answered that question yes, so I think there's a little bit of disagreement as to exactly what this does, and I want it to be very clear. He would have answered your question yes, I would have answered your question --

No. 20

No. 21

No. It actually --

Let me -- I want to ask a different question now.

Well, let just answer that question directly. 103 COMMITTEE ON LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Bill 970212

Okay.

Right now, say Mr. Mattia retired tomorrow; he would get the benefit of those highest three years, say, if they were in his file for 1980, '81, and '82.