That I agree with. And as you know too, in city government, there's always been waivers granted for certain civil service positions, and it's a built-in within the civil service and the residency requirement to do those waivers. When PGH was alive and well, the fine hospital that it was, most of the medical staff there, the nurses and the doctors, had waivers because there was an insufficient pool of City residents that wanted to work in those institutions.
And that is a fact. Although we don't have that problem anymore --
I don't think you really want to be understood as saying that in Philadelphia, we don't have an adequate pool. I believe we have a fully adequate pool of folks who 68 COMMITTEE ON LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Bill 970212 could become excellent, outstanding officers, given the proper training and if we had the right outreach program to reach them.
Any other questions from the committee? Councilman Kenney?
I appreciate being recognized. I just don't want to lose sight on one of the primary reasons of why I introduced this bill. I think we should be using all City employment opportunities as an opportunity to attract and bring in new families to our communities of every U.N. color and background because it is estimated that between 4 and 500 per month are continuing to leave the City. We would be getting the double benefit of having good competent people that we are attracting; and at the same time, having that family from South Carolina or from Arizona or from Florida or Michigan move their families into South 69 COMMITTEE ON LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Bill 970212 Philadelphia, Mt. Airy, the Northeast, and anywhere else in this city. And that's, again, one of the primary reasons. It's not the pool of applicants or the training or all the issues that need to be resolved; it's the use of employment resources to attract new families to our neighborhoods.
There is probably no more insulting thing to have happen to you in the workforce than to have your opportunity taken by a newcomer. I've had it happen to me just often enough to be offended where I've been baby stepping along, waiting for my chance, and then here comes some guy from "Podunk, Iowa" who gets to the head of the line and takes my opportunity. So, respectfully, I would say that a person coming in gets no greater points than the person who has been in Philadelphia, living in South Philly and Mayfair and North Philly. 70 COMMITTEE ON LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Bill 970212 All of us, those of us who, by our staying here, paying the taxes, bearing the burden of being an urban citizen at a time when suburbia is the place to be, we should not then pay an additional penalty by going in search of someone who didn't do what we've done.
Well, we're not -- this bill is not asking anyone to pay a penalty or giving anyone an advantage. Basically, you're competing on an equal footing with someone who is going to make a commitment to --
Let me finish. To move into this city, to pay those taxes, to raise their children, to participate in community life, and to be new residents.
And when he has done that for whatever our present residential requirement is, then he or she can compete on the same footing. But --
Well, then I suppose we're going to have to do without them. 71 COMMITTEE ON LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Bill 970212
I am not willing -- I am not willing -- I am not willing to take away whatever benefit comes from residency and wave a carrot to somebody who might come. If they want to be a Philadelphian and they want to have benefit of civil service positions in Philadelphia, then come and do what Philadelphians have done -- what you have done and what I have done.
Oh, now we're not going to argue your special problem.
Although I'm sure 72 COMMITTEE ON LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Bill 970212 we could make some interesting points.
I think we're losing sight of where we're going here. The Councilwoman's point is well taken and I would ask her to finish up here. Councilman Kenney's point was also well taken. I think I agree with Councilman Kenney and with what he's trying to do here, Councilwoman, and you know this process much better than me. We will vote on that and we will hash that around.
I just want to say one thing. As long as we're not paying for the relocation cost, I think it's a good thing that Councilman Kenney is bringing up here.
I just believe that 20 years ago, 30 years ago when this city had two million people or thereabouts, we were in a position of a buyer's market. Today, with all of the constraints and 73 COMMITTEE ON LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Bill 970212 pressures and attractions for good people throughout the country, I think, respectfully, it is shortsighted to limit us to just the people who are living here. If we have the added benefit of gaining a new family when we're losing them by the scores every month.
How far are you willing to go with that? Is there anything that requires --
Now, wait a minute; don't answer it till I ask you. Is there anything that requires city residency in your mind.
Yes. If you are a City employee, you should live in the city. If you are a teacher, you should live in the city. Any City employee should live in the city.
Who presently live 74 COMMITTEE ON LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Bill 970212 in Podunk, Iowa?
Yes, ma'am, if they're willing to relocate here and live in our city, yes.
I want them, I want them to come here and live here and increase our tax base and increase our population.
Well, you substituted the promise to move here with the requirement you have you've already lived here; is that correct?
And that's where you and I are having a nonagreement. It's a friendly nonagreement.
Yes, ma'am. Yes, ma'am. 75 COMMITTEE ON LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Bill 970212
Thank you, Mr. Rocks. I'm sorry. Councilman Nutter for Mr. Rocks. Ken, you're not getting away that fast. Councilman Nutter has one short -- I'm sure one short question.
Hi. Mr. Rocks, thank you. I don't think we'll engage in much of a discussion, but I just wanted to ask you, based on your experience and the things that you've seen, what would you say are the top five problems in recruiting high-quality people to the Philadelphia Police Department today?
Where do we rank in salary as compared to the other major cities of 76 COMMITTEE ON LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Bill 970212 the country?
Are we talking 11 about starting salary or average officer's 12 salary? Which analysis are we using? 13
After ten years of 16 service. 17 We presented all this information in 18 our recent collective-bargaining arbitration 19 hearings. And we at one time, back in 1979, we 20 were the highest paid police officers in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania.
Okay? Right now, we are, of all the surrounding counties and townships, we are the lowest paid, we're paid lower than the 77 COMMITTEE ON LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Bill 970212 city of Pittsburgh and the city of -- and the state police. At one time, we were the lead.
How do we rank as compared to the top ten cities in the country by population?
We're number 11. All's you have to do is take the cities where the FBI studies, the crime analysis, and we come out as the safest city, which is debatable right now, as to the figures that were utilized. But we are the lowest paid of all those cities.
Working conditions. And that's facilities. If you looked around at the facilities, which I would include training, we are probably the last people to want to know about decisions that affect how we perform our job as far as stop-and-search, seizure of evidence.
Yeah, I understand that but, I mean, how does that affect the --
How does that 78 COMMITTEE ON LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Bill 970212 affect a recruit? A recruit wouldn't know about all that stuff.
Well, they should be taught that. They should be taught that at the entry- level academy. I don't think there's leadership training; it's provided inadequate for the recruits.
Is that number 3? Or is that a part of working conditions?
Number 3 would be the. . . probably the supervision within the department, and the lack thereof --
-- of leadership, of people support, the necessary support network for a young officer on the street, you know, feeling isolated and alone when they make a decision and they end up headlines in the media.
Well, that affects -- you 79 COMMITTEE ON LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Bill 970212 know, because people would say -- because this is what the feedback I get from people that say, Why should I become a Philadelphia police officer when I make an error in judgment or something like that, I end up being a political pawn in a bigger game of things? And that's what happens in big cities.
You know, every time you see a police officer run through. Plus the corruption within the department and the media exposure. Although I don't -- and I'm not in favor of -- I think corruption should be --
But when you lower standards or permit standards to be lowered, then that's what you're going to attract. You're not going to attract the high achievers. And the high achiever is going to be reluctant to come into the Police Department. 80 COMMITTEE ON LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Bill 970212
With the salary. Because you're not attracting the best possible candidates. People look at that and say, Why should I take a career or accept a career in law enforcement at this starting salary when I could go somewhere else and make a better salary and have a better possibility of getting promoted up rather than going through a political system.
So you think that there is a direct correlation between salary and corruption?
And recruitment, most definitely, most definitely. I'd like to ask you a question.
How many graduates of St. Joe's Prep have we attracted to the Police Department recently?
Why aren't most of the officers -- (Unintelligible; parties speaking over each other.) 81 COMMITTEE ON LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Bill 970212
How many graduates of the school that you graduated from, Councilman, St. Joe's Prep, did we attract to the Philadelphia Police Department recently?
Well, I don't know. I think about 96, 98 percent of the Prep grads go to college, so I don't know if they're going to leave high school, then just go to Philly P.D., or maybe they'll go --
And then when they leave college, they don't come to Philly P.D. Either, so it --
But if you say that there is a correlation between salary and corruption --
And recruitment. 82 COMMITTEE ON LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Bill 970212
I think I said the correlation is between lower standards and corruption.
Lower standards and corruption, and you said one of the lower standards was salary.
Right? So you got lower standards, corruption, salary. And so you're saying that when you lower the standards by lowering the salary, you get a less qualified officer who potentially gets into corruption.
I said that what you tend to do is, you tend to attract those people that are not considered -- or what one could consider an achiever.
And I think that if you wanted to make decisions to see attract that type 83 COMMITTEE ON LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Bill 970212 of a recruit, then that's your decision.
But I'm offering my opinion, and I think that we should go after a higher quality of recruit from within. Or if we can't find them within, then go outside to find them. That may not cure all the problems.
But I think that what you would start to do is, you would start to improve the quality of police officer within the department.
And, hopefully, the results will show forth in not only the Police Department, their treatment to the community, you know the ingenuity within the Department.
Their ability to solve crimes. I mean, you know, we're getting sued now because people don't like the way police officers answer a 9-1-1 call, because their daughter ended up getting to be a victim of 84 COMMITTEE ON LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Bill 970212 homicide.
You know, in the course of my career, I handled two assignments such as that, to where, you know, I went and I knocked on the door, I interviewed the witness around there and said, Who called, who called? And nobody wants to get involved, so you say, Well, what should I do? Should we kick the door in, you know, to find out if we're going to find a dead body? Or are we going to find just somebody could have been watching a scary movie and screamed, or somebody could have been arguing, and when the police come, they stopped. I mean, I don't have a crystal ball. But, you know, but we get -- we get sued for that.
Right. I assume that both of -- all of our respective attorneys might encourage us to not get into the particulars of that case since it's apparently an open lawsuit, and I don't want to particularly talk about that. I've got salary, working conditions, supervision, and corruption as some of the leading 85 COMMITTEE ON LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Bill 970212 factors that contribute to our recruitment problem.
And the advancement. The advancement would have to be included there, and it would really be dependent on how high you put it, but that's an important part of anybody that would be considering a career.
Right, okay. And lastly, is it your -- do you believe that the quality of the current recruits or the recent recruits is less than or lower than what it has been in the past?
It's good, I believe it's good. We could probably make the quality of recruit better by improving the training, making the training longer, doing some things there by improving training. And that should be -- regardless of what this Council does, that should be a priority on somebody's agenda.
Right I think we heard -- I'm not sure if you were here. The Police Commissioner seemed to indicate --
Yes, I did. 86 COMMITTEE ON LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Bill 970212
Okay. He was talking about lengthening. Okay, thank you.
Councilman, thank you very much. No other questions for this witness, okay. (Les Yost comes forward.)
The next witness, please state your name for the record, sir.
My name is Les Yost. It's spelled L-E-S. And my last name is spelled Y-O-S-T. I'm the President from the Philadelphia Firefighters Union, and I'm here in support of Bill 970212. Up till now, it's been -- or it seemed like it was a bill just for police. It's for all City employees. And I believe that -- some of the questions that went before us, I believe that the military is diverse, and I believe that there are men and women in the military. And I believe that the federal court orders that stand with regard to hiring in the City of Philadelphia are fine and will stay, and 87 COMMITTEE ON LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Bill 970212 the that the diversity in the different City departments will stay the same as part of the federal court orders or consent decrees. We need men and women on the Philadelphia Fire Department that are the very best because of the technical dangers that we face. And I believe that the bill addresses that. It does allow us to hire the very best. And like the other departments, and like the Philadelphia Police Department that was spoken of, the numbers of people that are being recruited to take our exam have gone down dramatically. When I took it years ago, it was over 20,000 people that took that exam. Today, they have in the number of -- in the high 3,000s. We need to have a bigger base to collect from, and we will get better quality people in the Fire Department. So I speak in favor of the bill and I'll try and be as short as possible.
Thank you. Any questions for Mr. Yost from the committee. (No questions.)
Seeing none, 88 COMMITTEE ON LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Bill 970212 you're excused, sir.
And that's the last witness -- no. Linda? I'm sorry, almost forgot her. One more witness. (Linda Seyda comes forward.)
Linda, the reason I made you last is because I want you to absorb all of this.
And get it all in so that you can answer all the questions that everyone had. Please state your name for the record, please.
I am Linda Seyda, the Personnel Director for the City of Philadelphia. Joining me at the table this morning is Marilyn Hawker, who is my executive assistant. Good morning, Committee Chairman Mariano and members of the Committee on Labor and Civil Service. I am pleased to be here this morning to present testimony on Bill No. 970212. This bill will amend The Philadelphia 89 COMMITTEE ON LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Bill 970212 Code to permit former U.S. military personnel to be appointed to the civil service positions in the City. These appointees would not be required to meet the City's residency requirements on the original date of employment but would be required to become bona fide residents within six months of appointment and to maintain residency in the City. The Personnel Department supports this bill as it applies to the recruitment of police officers hired in Philadelphia. Passage of an amended version of this bill would permit the City to actively recruit at selected military installations to encourage qualified service personnel to work in the Philadelphia Police Department upon discharge from the service. We do not believe that a similar relaxation of the residency requirement is necessary for all new City employees. As our traditional pool from which we recruit for police officers has diminished over the years, we believe that looking to recently-separated military personnel is an advantageous way of expanding our local recruitment pool. It is our belief that utilizing 90 COMMITTEE ON LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Bill 970212 this recruitment source will provide the City with a labor pool that is not only physically fit but has also benefitted from a structured and disciplined background. Former military personnel represent a very diverse recruitment source. Recent demographic studies show that 71. 7 percent of all Department of Defense uniformed personnel are minorities, 13.4 are female. Of those enlisted persons currently serving in the military, enlisting a home address in Pennsylvania, 13 percent are minorities and 15 percent are females. 14 To facilitate the recruitment process, 15 the Personnel Department has established a client 16 relationship with the Defense Outplacement Referral System. This organization will provide to us, upon request and at no cost, resumes of recently-separated military personnel who list a local home address within a 24-hour time period. We are also in the process of exploring other recruitment options as well if this bill is passed. This concludes my prepared testimony. I am pleased to answer any questions that you may 91 COMMITTEE ON LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Bill 970212 have.
First, just one technical question. I wasn't sure what you said when you referred to a 24-hour time period. I heard every word, but I couldn't understand it so maybe I missed something.
The Defense Outplacement Referral System is an organization that's part of the Department of Defense.
And that organization will, within a 24-hour period, provide to us or any other employer resumes of recently-separated military personnel.
No matter where they may have lived? I'm just confused. You made a statement before about people with Pennsylvania addresses. Is it limited to that, or is the information that they will give you nationwide?
It depends on -- they will 92 COMMITTEE ON LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Bill 970212 provide it any way that you ask for it. It is up to the employer to determine the parameters so that we could ask for resumes only from Pennsylvania people, or we could ask for resumes from people who --
Did you have a proposal with that in your statement? All I'm trying to do is get information.
I didn't understand what you were saying. All I want to know is, what was your position on that point? Or are you taking no position as to where they could come from?
Well, we would -- we would support targeted recruitment at military installations where there's a diverse population and where the background and experience of the military personnel are such that they would be advantageous or good candidates for the City of Philadelphia. For example, I would anticipate that we would perhaps want to look at people who are coming out of the military police, for example. 93 COMMITTEE ON LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Bill 970212
Without respect to geographic location? That's what I'm trying to just find out, what it is you're advocating.
Potentially. I mean, I think we have to take a look at what those numbers are and, you know, what the possibilities are. We don't have a definite position at this point in time. We don't have enough information, quite frankly, at this point in time to say that we would want resumes from every state.
I can understand that. All I was trying to find out is what it was you were saying.
I was not take any position whatsoever on the matter. I just wanted to know what your position was. And as of now, you say there isn't enough information and you don't know whether there would be any geographic limitations. Is that an accurate statement?
Yeah, for all intents and purposes, yes. 94 COMMITTEE ON LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Bill 970212
All right. I'm going to yield to Councilwoman Clark for a minute to get further clarification..
Miss Saida, under the defense outplacement service that you offer us, that you described in your testimony, is it possible and would it be advisable for you, as Personnel Director for the City of Philadelphia, to request the biographical sketches of active military persons in the zip code 191? Could you be that specific? That's Philadelphia exclusively.
Miss Seyda, just for your information, previously, Councilman Kenney 95 COMMITTEE ON LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Bill 970212 stated that he was withdrawing this bill and will substitute another bill this coming Thursday. The substitution he referred to was to remove the word "former" on line 2 of the title so that whatever the bill said, it would only relate to current United States military service personnel, not former. Now, there is nothing in this bill that limits it to police officers. This bill would provide for the waiver of residency requirements across the whole civil service. Is that right Councilman Kenney? I don't want to argue it; I just want to know what the --
Can I recognize Councilman Kenney. He want to answer it.
On Thursday, what I will do is introduce two pieces of legislation. One will be police only; and the other will be full civil service. So if the opportunity to do the full civil service is available, I will take that 96 COMMITTEE ON LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Bill 970212 option; if it's only police, and that's available, I'll take that option. But I'll introduce both bills.
The third option would be not to choose either of the two options.
Okay. I just wanted you to know that because when you read the title, you read the word "former," and that's not going to be the bill that we're going to be considering. It will relate to current.
Both will be -- both bills will be active military personnel.
And we will support the bill, the amended bill, for Philadelphia police personnel.
Don't do that; 97 COMMITTEE ON LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Bill 970212 wait till you see it.
But her statement did state that the City administration currently supported a waiver only for the Police Department; is that right?
And that as to other departments, the City saw no need for any consideration of waiver at this point.
No other questions? Anyone else have any questions for this witness? (No further questions.)
Seeing none, we will adjourn the public hearing of the Committee on Labor and Civil Service and go right into a public meeting. - - -
We're going right into the public meeting for Labor and Civil 98 COMMITTEE ON LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Bill 970212 Service to take action on Bill No. 960598. The clerk will read the number and the bill. And then Councilman Cohen has something.
Bill No. 960598, an ordinance amending the Retirement System Ordinance, approved December 3, 1956, and the retirement system ordinance approved April 22, 1987, as amended, by redefining "average final compensation" for certain employees in positions which cannot be represented by a union by revising the base compensation upon which retirement benefits shall be computed.
Councilman Cohen? I'd like to recognize Councilman Cohen.
Mr. Chairman, I move that Bill No. 960598 be amended by adding a new Section 3 to the end of the current bill. The new Section 3 would read: "Section 3, period. This ordinance 21 shall apply fully to existing employees so that average final compensation shall be calculated for such employees with respect to their entire period of employment, starting from their first date of employment with the City." 99 COMMITTEE ON LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Bill 970212 I move the adoption of the amendment, Mr. Chairman. (Duly seconded.)
So noted that the bill has been moved and seconded. I would like to go for a vote for the amendment, we're going to vote on the amendment first. Councilwoman? I'm sorry, Councilman Nutter, did you get the amendment?
Well, there was a lot of discussion on this. As the bill is written now, it applies only prospectively.
So that current employees, no matter how close they are to retirement, could not get the full benefits of the bill unless they work for three full years under existing pension requirements. This would give current employees who are going to retire within the three-year period the right to get the full benefits of this legislation. 100 COMMITTEE ON LABOR & CIVIL SERVICE - Bill 970212