Thank you. 505 2/14/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET (Stenographic recording of proceedings now being taken by Josephine Cardillo, Registered Professional Reporter.) - - -
Good afternoon, the Chair now calls the Police Department. (Witnesses come forward.)
Commissioner, thank you for your patience. We appreciate your waiting. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Good morning, Council President Verna and members of the Council. I'm John Timoney, the Police Commissioner. ). Also, in the audience is Deputy Commissioner Charles Brennan and Chief Rooney from the Narcotics Division and others that will be available to answer any questions that Council might have. We have submitted a rather detailed point-by-point discussion and so I'm not going to go into all that; let me just go over the 506 2/14/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET highlights. 6 million more than the estimated obligation of 425 and 950 for the Fiscal Year '01. This request will fund a 4 percent sworn-personnel pay increase effective 7/1/01 and a 3 percent pay increase effective 12/15/01 for all civilian employees including the school crossing guards. The General Fund request will provide for 6,917 sworn personnel, including 3 classes of approximately 80 recruits each, 974 civilians, and about 1,037 school crossing guards. The 125 sworn officers assigned to the Airport Unit are funded by the Aviation Department, and the total sworn strength of sworn personnel is 7,042, which is the greatest number in over 13 years. The Department's FY '02 General Fund budget request is sufficient to continue funding of the Department's ongoing programs, as well as to provide for new equipment purchases and the launching of new programs. The focus of the Police Department's FY '02 will continue to 507 2/14/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET include a strong emphasis on narcotics enforcement and gun control, as well as the newly initiated programs consisting of a school safety zone and the reduction of nonviolent and nonviolent crimes overall, including quality-of-life arrests. The year 2000 proved to be an exciting and successful year for the Department and the City alike. In early 2000, I was appointed public to the cabinet-level post of Secretary of Public Safety. In this capacity, law enforcement activities involving SEPTA, the Philadelphia School District, and several local-university police departments are coordinated -- the day-to- day activities are coordinated through my office. This position permits me to better communicate among the various agencies as well as better utilizing City and university police resources. Additionally, this position enables me to further focus on safety issues in the Philadelphia School District, and I'll address that a little later on. What I'd like to do now is just mention briefly some of the major accomplishments. And then, I guess, those ones that the Council wishes to delve further into, we can in the questioning. 508 2/14/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET Again, some of the major accomplishments: The Abandoned Vehicle Unit removed over 62,000 abandoned vehicles in FY 2000. During the year, we introduced the first ever required protocol for police officers handling the very sensitive issue of racial profiling. We've formulated an oversight committee comprised of various women's groups and organizations that help us review sexual assault complaints and assists the Department in the proper identification and classification of sexual offenses. Our arrests have increased to 81,400 in FY '00, which is an increase of about 16 percent over FY '98. There has been a steady decrease in homicides to 3,006 in FY '00, which is down 32 percent from FY '96; We have introduced a court overtime program where there -- it really is a pilot project in Courtroom 405, which deals with narcotics, where the appearance of officers are limited to one police officer per case. We are 509 2/14/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET looking, hopefully, in the next year to expand that program to other courtrooms. We have also initiated a violent offender program under the Warrant Division, where we have removed and arrested 586 fugitives locally and an additional 92 who have fled Philadelphia and been located and brought back to justice by the Warrant Division.
We estimate that an additional 360 fugitives in FY '01 and '02 will be apprehended; And some significant programs over the last year. Again, the COMPSTAT program, that most of you are familiar with, meets every Thursday morning, and this is a forum that brings commanders from across the City and promotes crime awareness, crime reduction strategies, and it's a collaborative effort between the various police bureaus and units within the Department; We expanded the anti-drug initiative, Operation Sunrise, into Phase IV, and also created in the fall of last year violence response teams, where we put an additional 100 officers into the Narcotics Division, and they were -- they were allocated to the various narcotics districts: the 510 2/14/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET South Narcotics, East Narcotics, and NorthWest. And so that complement of police officers will use the creating violence response teams within each narcotics district. Basically what these narcotics -- and in addition to making narcotics arrests, they are available hours a day, 7 days 8 a week. And they do respond immediately to assist 9 detectives or homicide units on any drug-related 10 shootings drug-related shootings. It's been quite 11 successful so far. 12 We have also expanded our youth 13 violence reduction program, which is a program 14 that began about two years ago in the 24th 15 District, where the Police Department's working 16 with probation and patrol, with the so-called 17 street workers who are working for the 18 anti-violence project. And we identified 100 19 young -- mostly young -- men, who, going through 20 police records and court records, we have 21 identified as the most likely to either kill or be 22 killed. It's based on the so-called Boston 23 Model. That has now been expanded from initially 24 100 teenagers to well over 200 teenagers. And after two years, the program, I think overall has 511 2/14/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET been a big success. Interestingly enough, Professor John Dillilio from the University of Penn, who was instrumental in getting this program off the ground, has been chosen by President Bush to come to Washington and see if he can't expand more like this nationwide and in other cities. I think professor Dillilio has gone on record as saying that maybe Philadelphia can provide the model for the rest of the nation. We put together last year -- you know, police departments are famous for doing this, but we put together a paperwork reduction committee, and I am happy to report that as a result of the work done by that committee -- we had a young woman from the Harvard Business School who works for us now in our research and planning head up that committee, and we have reduced the preparation of 48s by 700,000, quite a reduction. There is -- the committee still stands as far as reforming or changing the 48s and to make them more user-friendly and create different information categories that we think, in turn, will help reduce some of the paperwork in the near future that's prepared by detectives. 512 2/14/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET The curriculum for the recruits up at the Academy has been revised and enhanced, and they now go for a full 40 weeks as opposed to 32. And so we have, along with New York, the only two cities in the nation that have almost a full nine months of training of recruit police officers. We began two years ago, and continued last year, our college degree initiative, and we have well over 300 police officers engaged in this that are going to college for the first time or have returned to college, and we're working closely with five or six local universities in this endeavor. The School Safety Initiative, which you may have heard of, where the Mayor allowed us to fund six police captains and one is a assigned to each police division, and the only function of that captain is to deal with the issue of school safety violence in and around the schools.
And I can tell you, it's become an integral part of our COMPSTAT meetings, and the six captains that are assigned, their reports are (indiscernible), and some of the initiatives and creative solutions they've come up with -- I'm not easily impressed, 513 2/14/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET but I am impressed with these six captains and what they're trying to do in the area of school violence. As I mentioned earlier, we set up the Special Victims Case Review Unit with a variety of women's groups. In the area of science and technology, we have put out to bid -- and it should be coming on line -- a new PIIN project, which is the Police Identification and Integration Network, which, again, will help us gather data in, you know, easy-access fashion that will help in our crime-fighting initiatives but will also help in our integrity for the Internal Affairs Unit to get them better information and integrate those systems. We have what we call a Temple Penn Interface Initiative. This came on line about six months ago at both Temple and Penn. You know, both of those universities have significant-size police departments, and we found, looking over how they operate and how we operate, that there was a tremendous amount of duplication of effort. And so now both of those departments are hooked into the 011 system. And so if a call for service, for 514 2/14/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET a police service, happens on the Penn campus or the Temple campus, those departments are simultaneously notified. And particularly at Temple, it's been quite successful, where those police departments notify us that they are handling the assignment and there's no need for the local district to respond. It's been so much successful at Penn that we need to improve the response on the part of Penn. But, again, it's another initiative of working with the university police to help reduce the workload of the local districts that cover the various universities. The AFIS system, which is the automatic fingerprinting identification system, came on line in November of last year, and that's been a great success. It reduced the waiting time for processing prints found at the scene of crimes, and we find more and more of our police officers and detectives taking more prints, whether it's from a past burglary or a stolen car, and we've had great success in just three or four months into this program. Because the turnaround time so fast, it rally encourages police officers and detectives to submit a lot more prints. And there 515 2/14/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET is no backlogging and waiting for prints to come back from Harrisburg. Prior to this system, it would be six to eight weeks, which in itself is a bit of a disincentive to submit those prints. Now they're getting a turnaround in less than a week, and quite often we're getting hits on some very significant cases. As far as police facilities, again, the upgrading -- or actually the building of the new 23th and 25th District will go on line and is expected to be completed in the year 2002. In about a year and a half, we expect to have our new laboratory completed, which will create a state-of-the-art police lab, and we have, I think, very great plans for that laboratory, where we will create not just a lab for the Philadelphia Police Department but a regional lab that will service other police departments in the locality, and we will charge them for that service and we will wind up making money. That's not the intent of the lab, but since we have it, we will provide a service that now is provided by the State Police but we will provide to it local police departments for a charge, and we're looking forward to that. 516 2/14/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET And, finally, the construction continues, and should be finished shortly, of the Background Unit, which is located on the third floor of the 39th District. That should be completed in the next month or two.
Finally, Madam Chair, as the Department advances into the 21st century, it must be prepared to face new challenges and to evolve into an increasingly complex environment. The Department's emphasis on the efficient and intelligent utilization of new technology, improvements in training and education of its personnel, and the promotion of greater sensitivity to Philadelphia's diverse population and its changing needs has enabled the Department to establish better relationships in the community it serves. We hope in the near future to enhance upon the gains made over the last few years, and, you know, we look forward to obviously working with the Mayor, but also to working with yourself and the others members of Council. And, you know, hopefully this time next year, we'll receive the same recognition that, deservedly so, the Managing Director, Joe Martz, 517 2/14/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET got from Councilman Cohen. Because, you know, he doesn't get enough praise in this city 'cause he's remarkable -- not just for Council, enough from the rest of us, but also, he's been tremendous for the Philadelphia Police Department. He's a good friend, and whatever we need, up to a point, he gets us. And so, Madam, I want to thank you for your indulgence, and we're prepared to answer any questions you have.
Thank you, Commissioner. We're delighted to learn that we're going to be receiving 37 additional school crossing guards. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yes, ma'am.
I think we've needed them for a quite a while. Commissioner, you indicated that you have assigned six police captains on the School Safety Initiative? COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Correct.
Would you please elaborate on what that initiative is and 518 2/14/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET what the students and their parents can expect as a result of this program. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yeah, as you're well aware, there was a report that came down from Harrisburg by, I guess, the State representative body regarding the security and the police, and it wasn't a very flattering report, and there were accusations of, I guess, failure to report crimes within the school system. When I became the Secretary of Public Safety, the Mayor made it clear to me that the number-one priority for his administration was education and the issue of safety within the schools. And so we put those six captains in there to do a variety of things; to spend the first month or two really just taking a look-see, in September and October, to find out what's going on there and to find out what were some of the best practices, what were some of the worst practices, and to report back to us informally in my office and formally at the COMPSTAT meetings. And they have surpassed, really, even my expectations on some of the information that they've come up with and some of the initiatives 519 2/14/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET they've undertaken. And so, for example, in your area, in South Philadelphia, the captain that's down there -- there had been a series -- not a series, but there were one or two incidents of sexual assaults, really groping; there wasn't -- it wasn't very serious sexual assaults, but sexual assaults nonetheless, where male students were groping female students. She set up, with the help of the local principals, you know, where they brought kids into the auditorium and they conducted lessons on, you know, on what's appropriate behavior, what's going to be tolerated and not tolerated, and then the significance of what was going on and the possibilities of arrests, that this is not -- it really isn't kid stuff, that this is quite serious. And there's been a whole host issues like that. There's been a look-see at the mechanisms, you know, the metal detectors, to see how they're set up. We found -- just yesterday, we recovered another gun in a local school. By us going in there and looking around the schools and the systems in place, it became clear to us that there are other ways of kids getting weapons, 520 2/14/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET whether it's a gun or a knife, into school, going around the metal detective, that kids provided easy access through doors that would normally be kept closed. So we have been providing not just safety tips, but really security surveys of every school. The captains have visited every school in that district, working very close with the principals, the assistant principals, and the counselors. And as I say, what we're trying to do with the overall strategy is to find the best strategies 'cause some schools are fine; other schools need some help. And what we're looking to do hopefully by the end of the school year is to come up with a whole list of recommendations. Where we see the opportunity to make recommendations and implement those recommendations right now, we don't wait. But the master plan, if you will, will be to, at the end of this year, to come up with a kind of a comprehensive set of recommendations hopefully that are cost-neutral. There has been, as you're well aware, a 521 2/14/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET consultant group that came in and made a series of recommendations last fall, and a lot of those recommendations have been taken and put in place. Others have some cost implications, others have some labor implications. I've met with the new School Chancellor, or CEO as he's called, and he's met with all of our captains. And wherever we can help, wherever we can help, we're going to help, but there are some things that the Philadelphia Police Department can't help that may have monetary implications, and he and the board will have to make those decisions.
But I can guarantee you, the relationship between the Philadelphia Police Department and the School District could not be closer. I mean, we're all on the same page, we have our marching orders from the Mayor. And clearly, things aren't perfect, but I can guarantee you that they're a hell of a lot better than a year or two years ago.
Thank you, Commissioner. What is the composition and role of the 522 2/14/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET oversight committee who review sexual assault complaints? COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: As you're well aware, the Philadelphia Inquirer did a series of articles over a two-year period regarding how crimes, sexual crimes, were classified and investigated. And it's -- you know, it's no 9 secret that those reports, those articles were not very flattering. And as a result of those articles, even Council's Public Safety Committee held hearings. It seemed to me that, you know, it wasn't really anything that we didn't know. We had uncovered a lot of the problems ourselves, and we set about the task of fixing it, and we took what I considered the best captain in Internal Affairs at the time and put him in charge of the Special Victims Unit. We also gave him for the first time an executive officer and put all new sergeants and lieutenants in there, and for the first time ever, put detectives in the Special Victims Unit. And then in addition, we gave them additional detectives, newly promoted detectives to help work on and solve old cases. And I think 523 2/14/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET we made great strides. But the damage was done, and there really was an issue of credibility for this department and specifically for that unit. And I could have spoken till I was blue in the face regarding all of the great reforms we made, but if there really wasn't some outside entity, a non-police entity to say yea or nay on those reforms, I think we would have still had an issue of public confidence in that unit. We had been working informally with women's groups all along -- Women Organized Against Rape and a whole host of other ones. We knew they were serious about the business they're involved in and that we have a lot of things in common. And we asked them -- and I thought it was the right thing to do, for them to come in and help us institute and implement certain reforms and to take a look at the reforms we already put into place and take a look at how we're categorizing and investigating. It's a lot of hard work, and those women, to their credit, helped put in an awful lot of hours in every month reviewing those cases, really to say yea or nay in 524 2/14/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET regards to how we're handling them. And they have testified before Councilman Ortiz's committee. And I think so far, so good, but they've gone a long way in instilling, or raising, public confidence in the work of that unit.
Commissioner, if my memory serves me, I think last year, we had heard that the overtime for court-related business in the Police Department was somewhere in the vicinity of approximately $10 million; is that correct? COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yeah, that's correct, ma'am.
You know, we've been told for the last years that we're 17 certainly going to try to cut back on that, and I 18 know that you did say that today that you do have 19 a program now in effect that has been taking place 20 in Courtroom 405 or 450. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: In 405, yeah.
Are you going to be expanding that, and can you project the budget for court-related overtime in FY '02 and tell us how that compares to the prior years? 525 2/14/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Well, I'm not going to project because I don't control the court system. We rely on the kindness of strangers -- in this case, it's judges -- that are willing to go along with the program that we've instituted. We think there is plenty, plenty of room for improvement, and we'd like to expand that concept to 405. As a matter of fact, we just had a meeting on this the other day. We think there are improvements to be made in the system to do two things: that will reduce overtime and that will also help complainants, victims of crimes. For example, in the area of property crime, the only thing that's necessary for a man or woman that's been a victim of a property crime, whether it's a stolen car or their house is burglarized, if they didn't witness it, then the only thing they really need to do is say, "I didn't give that person permission to burgle my home or steal a car." We should be allowed to have a police officer have in their radio car, or a detective when they're processing the paper, the paperwork where the complainant signs that he gives permission -- and that should suffice, that 526 2/14/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET should go with that case through the system. That's the way it's done in -- we did this in New York about ten years ago, and it works. Here, for whatever reason, they want the complainant there, they want all of the police officers there, and it's completely unnecessary. And so we're going to propose a whole series of recommendations, along with the expansion of the Room 405 concept, to, in those property cases -- burglary, stolen cars, retail thefts -- that you don't need the complainant there, and you don't need five officers that -- you know, the arresting officer, the arresting detective should suffice. And in addition to all of those things, myself and Commissioner Nestel have set up, for want of a better term, a COMSTAT-like process for reviewing overtime. We are bringing commanders in on a regular basis, holding them accountable for the overtime within their individual units. But we do need -- unfortunately, we do need the cooperation of the judges, we need the cooperation of the D.A. In the area of overtime there's enough fault -- there's enough fault and enough fingers to point in every direction of why 527 2/14/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET it's so high.
Commissioner, for years I've been saying now that we have a computerized system. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yeah.
I just can't understand why we have police officers like running from one courtroom to another who we're asking to be excused. I used to do the listing of court cases in the D.A.'s office many, many, many, many moons ago. And what I would attempt to do would be to put maybe cases in one courtroom 14 where Officers A and B, who work together, made 15 arrests, so that you would have only two police 16 officers assigned to that courtroom that day. 17 Do you see a problem in doing that? I 18 mean, I just can't understand why we have to have 19 so many police officers -- 20 COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Right.
-- in a courtroom, when we could actually be having two assigned, for instance, to the same courtroom. It was twenty of their cases. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yeah. 528 2/14/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET
In 405 or whatever. But I just don't understand why we can't improve that system. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Again, I think we need cooperation of the judges. Some judges, in a burst of open candor every once in a while, say, for example, the preliminary hearings have turned into almost open trials; we have four and five and six police officers there, unnecessarily. You only need one police officer -- you should -- at a preliminary hearing to establish the facts of should the case go forward or should it be thrown out. That's all you need. But we wind up having four or five. But let me have Commissioner Nestel, who is much more intimate with the details. DEPUTY COMMISSIONER NESTEL: Tom Nestel, Deputy Police Commissioner. Council President, we have been working closely in the last two months with the -- the Managing Director is overseeing this -- with the courts and with the District Attorney to both expand the Hearsay Rule and to look at the subpoenaing of officers. I spoke to Al 529 2/14/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET Toczydlowski in the D.A.'s Office as late as last night at a basketball game, and we are meeting to try to have an impact on the number of officers who are subpoenaed. But I can tell you the Managing Director -- the Managing Director is also over conducting meetings with the courts, with the Police Department, and with the District Attorney to address this issue. And we can all do a better job.
But you understand what I am saying? DEPUTY COMMISSIONER NESTEL: Yes.
Do you understand what I am suggesting? And I've been made that suggestion for, I think, as long as I've been here. I just think we waste so much policeman power by having police officers in 20 one courtroom, when, on any given day, we could have just two police officers in that courtroom. However, I'm glad to hear that you're working on that and, hopefully, we will come to some resolution. DEPUTY COMMISSIONER NESTEL: Council 530 2/14/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET President, just in this Courtroom 405, on the narcotics cases, the average number of officers subpoenaed on a preliminary hearing was four. In this courtroom, one officer is doing the testifying for that arrest, and that's what we're trying to expand to other courtrooms.
That sounds very encouraging, and I'm very happy to hear that. Good for you. I don't want to dominate this hearing; I do have several other questions. The Chair recognizes Councilman Kenney.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you, Commissioner and members of the staff. We had a preliminary discussion the other day during the last hearing we had last week about this issue of Operation Sunrise and the effects or the appearance of effects on other neighborhoods throughout the City who are also experiencing the drug trade. I mean, I think it's safe to say there's probably a drug addict or a drug dealer at some point level on almost every street in the City. 531 2/14/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Mm-hmm.
I mean, it's such a pervasive problem. In some areas, it's concentrated where there's violence and gun play and outright open dealing; and in other places, like where I live and in other some more stable neighborhoods, there's this continuing frustration of beeper bicycle delivery services. You see the junky standing on the corner, you know what he or she is waiting for, and it's only a matter before somebody with a bicycle comes riding up with a cell phone and a pager and makes the sale in front of your face. My particular method of dealing with it is calling 911 and hoping that the convergence of a police car, the bike, and the buyer all come together at once, and it very rarely happens. But people are seeing it more and more and are frustrated and concerned about that particular neighborhood that they're living in, that maybe it's time to consider Washington Township or Delaware County because it's just getting to the point where it's getting bad, but it's not to the level of North Central or Kensington or other 532 2/14/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET areas where people are shooting each other on the street. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yeah.
And I've talked to the captain in South, they do a tremendous job, they're extremely responsive, they're out there, they call you back, they let you know what happened and they're working hard. And I think you have enough people. How do we get a handle on this thing? 'Cause it seems to be a very elusive part of the trade. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Well, let me just say, for those who are thinking of going out to Delaware County as a refuge --
Well, I know, I agree. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: In the Southwest, about 80 percent of the people that we lock up are from Delaware County; they're coming in to buy the drugs.
Oh, I know. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: In the East, they're coming in from Bucks County and Jersey and 533 2/14/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET places like that. So there is no, you know, running from the City to get away from the drugs. It's just -- that's not quite the case.
I think that's accurate that that's not the solution. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Right, exactly. I understand.
But it's the perception, and once they're gone, they may be unhappy where they're living, but they're out of here. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yeah. You know, any way you look at it, over the last three years, in any part of the City -- and I hear you speak about specifically the South. Arrests seizures, money, cars, guns, everything is up, and up significantly, in the area. The -- I mean, it's -- they're not staying in, in the system, whether they're -- and I don't think myself the user should stay in; they should be kind of forced to -- they should be given the option of going into rehab and then if not, then put in the system. But, certainly, the sellers, the ones who are plying the trade and 534 2/14/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET making the profit, should be kept in. But, you know, I would invite anybody here to come in to our weekly COMPSTAT meeting. It's not just in the area of drugs, but in overall crime in the City, the frustration with time and time again being informed by a detective or the detective captain when he says, Okay, fine, we locked up this guy for the robbery, and I say, Well, how many priors does he have? and he'll say or 28. I mean, that's not an uncommon 12 response. And it's kind of maddening. 13 You know, we did a quick study for 1999 14 and 2000. We wanted to look at the people we've 15 arrested with 25 or more prior arrests -- that's a 16 huge number, so you really shouldn't have that 17 many. We had 1,000 people that we arrested with 18 more than 25 arrests. And on average, they had 30 19 arrests. We made over 36,000 -- they accounted 20 for 36,000 arrests. So on arrange, they had 30 21 arrests. And so it's -- you're frustrated and I'm 22 also frustrated. 23
I guess I wasn't 24 looking for a magic answer, but I'm -- COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yeah. 535 2/14/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET
It's just getting to the point where it's infecting every neighborhood in every way. And I think people are beginning to see it more and more. And it's not good when it's behind closed doors, but when it's starting to be seen on a regular basis, I think it just scares that middle-class, working-class homeowner out of the City. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Well, I mean, we can't go do it now because it would take, quite literally, all night, but I actually discussed this up in Villanova last night at a symposium I was invited up to. But, I mean, there is serious, serious talk now throughout the nation, particularly up in New York and in New Mexico and I guess under Bush in Washington, going -- declaring this War on Drugs as a bit of a failure and rethinking the -- what the nation and what the states should be doing in regards to drugs. The one thing I'll tell you is if you look at last Sunday's New York Times, it looks like California passed a law without thinking about it and the implications of the law. As you're well aware, in California, if a person's 536 2/14/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET arrested -- in the latest initiative, if a person's arrested, a nonviolent drug offender, they're not going to go into jail; they go into rehab. The only problem is, there was no force or no hammer in the criminal justice system, there was no money set aside for rehab centers, for counselors. And so, it looks like, before it even got started, that program may be a big failure.
On another issue of crime reporting, one of the benefits that we had expected from the State allowing us to put registration stickers in the rear left lower part of our windshield was to cut down on the number of theft reports because of people cutting the plates. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Right.
Has that had any effect, or is it too soon to tell? COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: It's actually too soon. And actually, we saw -- it's interesting. We saw a spike-up, and I've been wondering if this is like a going-out-of-business sale. Are people stealing right before the last ones go inside? 537 2/14/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET
Actually, in the 4th District, there was a report last week of three rear windshields being broken out with baseball bats and the plates stolen, along with the sticker from the -- COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: We've only had one as of the last COMPSTAT. Now, I'm not aware of that one that --
It may be the same story. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: We are monitoring that very carefully, because we've said to PennDOT, you know, we'd like to see it done this way. Now, if there are huge downsides to this, then, you know, then we've got to go back and --
I don't think it's widespread; I'm just commenting on the irony of people trying to find any way possible to get the thing. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yeah.
On the issue of recruitment, what have we been doing in an effort to recruit additional ethnic minorities 538 2/14/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET representative of what's living in the City as far as Asian minorities, Arab officers, people who speak the languages of the neighborhoods that are burgeoning in the City? COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yeah. That's a very good question. And we have -- I believe it's next week -- the sergeant and his five officers coming in to give the command staff a presentation on what are some of the new initiatives, how they're going about the business. I have personally gone over to two meetings in Chinatown and I've spoken to the Chinese press. I've had the Korean folks into my office, speaking to the Korean press, tell them when -- and trying to set up some systems so that when we do announce the next test, that we get as much participation by those and other racial minorities as possible, 'cause there's a real need for them.
Are we dealing with the high schools at all? COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Oh, yeah. The high schools, that's kind of the traditional response. We need to do much a more focused one. 539 2/14/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET And so I'll actually give you a call after that presentation, or you're more than welcome to come to the presentation.
Yeah, I'd appreciate it if you would let me know when it is. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yeah, absolutely.
Thank you. The Chair recognizes Councilwoman Brown.
Good afternoon, gentlemen. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Good afternoon, ma'am.
A couple questions, one related to a follow-up on Madam President's question around the youth violence reduction program and the tremendous success you have experienced in the 24th and 25th Police Districts. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Mm-hmm. 540 2/14/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET
Might you see that expanding to other districts, I'm sure in a very incremental fashion, or do you? COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: The answer is yes, but I'd rather hold that as a private discussion, only because there may be some implications for Washington and some other things. But the answer is yes. But let's be honest, it's labor-intensive and it's resource-intensive.
Yes. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: And so, you know, if there's going to be models, we'd be more than happy to volunteer be the models, if there is sufficient funding coming from outside of the City.
Okay. The 37 school crossing guards, who or how -- not who, but how is it determined where they end up? COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: The deployment, yeah.
The deployment of those officers. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yeah. I mean, 541 2/14/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET we have -- we've got --
Numerous requests, right? COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Pardon?
Far more many requests than -- COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: We always have more requests: there are a thousand, and we'll be adding those additional ones. It really is -- it's an assessment done by the district commanders in consultation with the various community leaders. But the final say in all of this really is it Chief of Patrol. There isn't enough to go around, and we make these hard choices and try to be as equitable as possible. But it's a difficult, you know, issue to deal with.
Is the School District at that table? In terms of the collective decision-making? COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: No, not that I'm aware of, no. 24
On the major intersections that. . . 542 2/14/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: No. 3
Okay, the School Safety Initiative piece, let me see. In your testimony, you discussed the first phase of that, and if I heard you correctly, you're still at the information-gathering stage, which then lays the groundwork for strategy development, correct? COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Correct. And as I say, I fully expect that the first part of the year, up to December, is strictly information. But they got the information and got a lot of information, but there seems to be so many obvious needs that could have been addressed as they were going along.
Mm-hmm. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: They did, in fact, address those issues. And, you know, whether it was giving lectures at school assemblies on sexual assault, whether it was recommendation regarding physical security in and around the schools, a lot of changes and a lot of initiatives have taken place. Suffice it to say, we haven't put this all in booklet fashion, but at the end of this 543 2/14/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET year, at the end of this school year, we will, as I say, make a report to the Mayor and to the School Board regarding our findings and then recommendations, particularly those that are cost-neutral.
And we'll look forward to that report as well. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yeah.
Does training right now -- the training of the NTAs -- are they still called NTAs? COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yeah, but we don't train 'em. We train -- the NTAs -- and, you know, I referenced when I was speaking to Council President Verna that in the consultant's report, there were a lot of -- I mean, I thought it was a tremendous report and there were a lot of great recommendations. Some of them had some costs, but some of them had labor issues.
Oh, okay. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: And that's one of the labor issues, with the NTAs versus regular school security. Then even within the school security, you have regular employees versus 544 2/14/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET per-diems. Those things still all have to be ironed out. We provided training, the Philadelphia Police Department, for just the school security, not the NTAs, back in last September. But it was because of scheduling -- I'm sorry, it really was just a one-day training. We are looking to do more of that training, much more elaborate -- five days or ten days, but we're working with the School Board on that issue. There has been no requests to train NTAs. I think the School Board has got to make up its mind on how it wants its final police security package to look.
To look like. That's a question we'll certainly follow up with then when the School District comes before us. Two closing comments. One, to applaud your vision on the value that comes with the educating your police force and encouraging them to link up with the universities because that, indeed, make a better police officer. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yes, ma'am.
And secondly, I do 545 2/14/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET have to commend you on the initiatives you have undertaken internally to broaden the composition of your leadership. I think it's important that you do what you can to get women and people of color on line so that they move into leadership. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yes.
And I commend you on that 'cause I have paid attention to that over the past twelve months. And, of course, the ultimate dream is to one day see you flanked by a woman -- during testimony. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Thank you very much.
Thank you. The Chair recognizes -- Councilman Clarke is next. If you're busy, I could go to the next Councilperson.
Thank you, Madam Chair. 546 2/14/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET Good afternoon, gentlemen. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Good afternoon, Councilman.
First to Deputy Commissioner and the people that he's worked with, I would like to thank him and the individuals involved with the action up in the Upper Fairhill neighborhood. We're getting a lot of great reports back and people are feeling real good about what's going on, and hopefully we can duplicate that throughout the City. So I personally want to thank you today for what you've done and the briefing prior too. It has been very helpful to me. I have a couple questions. With respects to the jurisdictional issue, Commissioner, I recall earlier on, you came in and had some concerns about what you saw, the PHA police, the PGW police, and the University police, the Temple police, the SEPTA police, and there was no level of coordination. And I think, as a result of that, you were given the title of Public Safety Officer -- COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Right. 547 2/14/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET
-- so you could have some -- and can you give me a status of where we are, 'cause I know one time in particular, we had talked about this Philadelphia Housing Authority police issue -- COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Right.
-- where they would not come out of the development if they saw a crime across the street because they said that wasn't their jurisdiction, and the Philadelphia police were saying, Well, that's in the public in the housing development and I can't go there and that's their responsibility, which, you know, we all felt pretty much felt was ridiculous. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Right.
Can you give me an update on where we are with that? COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yeah. Well, I mean, on the most formal level, they now, on a regular basis, attend COMPSTAT, even if we're covering a district that doesn't have any housing on it, although there isn't many, that wouldn't have a housing development in that particular district, that they are there, they're fully in 548 2/14/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET tune. Especially under Chief Zapelli (ph.) and with Carl Green, it's gotten a lot bigger push, the recognition that, you know, it's a kind of everybody's responsibility. Commissioner Johnson also put together narcotics task forces because it had become clear to us that, I guess, because of this "it's not mine, it's your/it's not yours, it's mine," that some public housing was looked on as safe sanctuaries for drug dealers.
Right. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: That, you know, you couldn't deal out on the street, but if you were inside, you could do it.
Right. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: And so Commissioner Johnson put together a task force of Philadelphia police officers with housing police officers dealing with the issue of narcotics. It's been quite successful. But the -- I think the biggest thing is the -- forcing the district commanders to work with their counterparts in housing on a regular basis regarding conditions in the housing and 549 2/14/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET regarding crime in and around the housing. And it comes up. We have -- for example, if we have the South Division up, we had them up last week, any housing developments that are on the maps there -- and we'll have Tasker Houses, and if we see a burglary there or an aggravated assault, we'll question not just the local commander, but the commander from housing in regards to what went on there and who made the complaint, was an arrest effected, what's going on. Those are what's happening so far. Ultimately, though, decisions have to be made within the Housing Authority. I actually have got no problem long-term merging the housing police with the Philadelphia police officers. But there are labor implications, there are all sorts of other issues that have to be addressed first.
Yeah, that was going to be my next question 'cause I knew there were some unofficial discussions about actually merging not the Philadelphia Housing Authority but also with other police departments in the City under one because there was some level of redundancy and a lack of coordination. 550 2/14/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yeah, mm-hmm.
Are we still looking at the possibility of doing that? COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yeah. I mean, for example, if you look at the housing police, it really -- I think the figures, the last time I looked, it was about 350, but only about -- about 100 to 125 will be fully fledged, having gone through the Philadelphia Police Academy, are fully trained. Another group of, for argument's sake, about 100 are former Philly police officers, which, if you did merge, they couldn't come back.
Right. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: And there's another group of about 100 that really are just guards that man the tables in front of the housing developments when you first walk in. So those are issues that need to be dealt with just under policing. Then, I guarantee you, I absolutely guarantee you, there will be civil service issues, there will be labor issues with the FOP and -- but ideally, and it would be my goal long term, to have that happen. 551 2/14/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET
Do we have a time line when we could hopefully come to some resolution in one way or the another? I mean -- COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Oh, they're the other parts, there's always another part. Then the other part is, I want to make sure I get the federal funding.
All right, that's -- I understand that. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Okay.
I understand they have a lot of -- COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yeah, I mean --
I mean, yeah, 'cause I agree -- I think we all agree that there's probably something that should happen, but I think if we set a deadline on whether or not it's going to happen, then we'll figure out a way to get it done or not get it done, but we -- COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yeah. Well, you know, we've had some, last year, some superficial discussions with the Mayor on a whole host of police issues. He and I have -- he is now -- he now does what I call one-on-one's where I get to 552 2/14/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET spend -- and I meet with him, obviously, in the cabinet meetings and we talk on the phone, but now we sit down for a good two hours, discussing police matters. And that and a lot of other in-depth issues will be coming up at those meetings, where he meets with the commissioners. And I guarantee you, that will come up, because he's keenly interested in making this place leaner, meaner, and much more efficient.
You know, I used to get those one-on-ones when I worked form him, but that's kind of hard to get now. One last question. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Sure.
Last year, the Council -- and, again, I thank the members of Council -- we passed the gun verification bill 19 that some people is claim illegal. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yeah.
Councilman Ortiz and myself cosponsored it. And I understand that the Mayor, in fact, signed the bill. Can you give me the status of the implementation phase, which is essentially the 553 2/14/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET police adding an addendum to the permit-to-carry form. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yeah, it's -- I don't have Brad Richmond (ph.) here. You may have seen the article that was.
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I could have written it myself. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yeah. I'll have Brad get back to you on that. I know he (indiscernible) asked that and I forget exactly what the answer was, but I will have him get back to you on that.
Thank you. Councilman Ortiz, it's not your turn, but I don't know if you heard the Commissioner testifying, but there will be 37 additional school crossing guards.
So I know that you would be very happy hearing that. The Chair recognizes Councilman Nutter. 554 2/14/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET
Thank you, Madam Chair. Good afternoon, Commissioner. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Good afternoon, sir.
And Deputy Commissioner Johnson and Deputy Commissioner Nestel, and you didn't want Deputy Commissioner Brennan up there? COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: He's right next to me.
Has he fallen out of favor or something? Was he a bad boy? COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: He's one of your constituents, I believe.
Yes, yes. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: He told me he wanted to sit in the back.
He's very good. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: He'd be asking you questions.
He may have a few requests. Commissioner, I wanted to ask you just 555 2/14/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET a couple of quick questions about -- there was, I think it was last year, possibly a year before, a lot of discussion about videotaping of confessions. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yes, sir.
And can you tell us what, if anything, is going on with that particular initiative? I know there was a difference of opinion in the law enforcement community to some extent about that. And what -- what, if anything, are we doing? COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: It's been up and running now for probably about a year and a half.
Okay. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: It's been quite successful in getting statements, including the killing of that off-duty police officer a couple of weeks ago. My sense is we should be getting more of them, and that's an issue that we're dealing with internally. But, no, it's been quite, quite successful.
Very good, very good. Thank you. 556 2/14/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET I've read a couple stories and I've had some discussions, and there seems from time to time -- and maybe this is just kind of natural. There are -- you know, people think it's a big thing when there are issues back and forth, for instance, between the City Council and the Mayor's Office or the Administration. I mean, you know, the type of government that we have is set up to have a little bit of some, you know, natural back-and-forth. Tell me a little bit about what's going on between the Philadelphia Police Department and the Police Advisory Commission. I've just been kind of watching and reading some of the stuff back and forth. Are things generally going well, are you guys kind of getting along out there? Or what's the latest? COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: I know there's -- I actually don't deal with them one-on-one. It's usually amongst the lawyers. Darren Waite (ph.), who's one of the lawyers who handles the discipline in labor issues for me and Karen Simms, who's my lawyer, she's from (indiscernible) the Law Department. 557 2/14/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET
Right. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: They deal with the PAC. There have been a few contentious issues regarding. . . well, I think there's an overall disagreement regarding what they perceive as the failure of the Police Department to take their recommendations into consideration, because to have a rather narrow view of corrective action, they have got a view, like most civilians have a view, that if an officer does something wrong, then that officer should be punished. From the day I got here, from the day I got here, I can remember coming before Council. My -- the way I operate, assuming this isn't an egregious case of police misconduct, corruption, or something like that, that my initial instinct to take corrective action is to use positive discipline. You don't hear the word, but it's positive discipline. Positive discipline encompasses training, counseling, looking to straighten the officer out, looking to show them the right way. If that fails, then you go to negative discipline. And so we have taken a lot of their 558 2/14/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET recommendations regarding -- that the officer may have done something wrong, some violation, some minor violations of rules and procedures. And we've taken action, we're trained them. That training is a form of discipline, it's positive discipline. Unfortunately, I think, the PAC just counts the number of days suspended, and so it's what you count is where you come up with the disagreements. That's one. The second one is, there's been a pretty well-established practice that on serious case -- on all cases, but particularly on serious case, where there's an active investigation being conducted by Internal Affairs, that Internal Affairs will conduct its investigations for a whole variety of reasons: number one, they're trained; number two, there's the possibility of a criminal outcome in the investigation. And, you know, there is pretty established both State and federal law on how police investigations need to proceed -- things like -- and I'm not a lawyer, but I'm familiar with a lot of them. There's the (indiscernible) decision by the Supreme Court, the (indiscernible) decision here in Pennsylvania. 559 2/14/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET There's a certain way of going about if you violate any of those established rules or laws, you wind up screwing up the case and you wind up allowing an officer to go free. There was a case -- and I don't remember all of the details, but the PAC, rather than wait for Internal Affairs to complete its investigation, I think, was looking to run a parallel investigation, and I think they ran into some problems with the union, where the union, I guess, just submitted written statements, the statements that they gave to Internal Affairs. And, I mean, that doesn't help anybody out, where we look like we're stepping on one another's toes.
Right. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Finally, finally, this is the biggest things that most people seem to miss in this town. You know, they're wondering why on certain cases, you're not taking disciplinary action. When you read the case, you'll hear terms like, "Well, I believe" and "I think." Well, it ain't good that you believe and you think; you need to know, there's got to be established facts. 560 2/14/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET And even when you do know, even when we have -- forget the PAC. Even when we have great Internal Affairs cases, even when we have science on our side, we'll have some mindless arbitrator, when I fine an officer 30 days or fire him, return that police officer with full pay -- and by the way, any overtime he would have made while he was fired, give him that also. So it's a difficult enough process here, instituting and having discipline stick without bringing people up on discipline because somebody "thinks" or "I believe." We need to have facts.
Well, let me at least offer to you because of, you know, my long-standing involvement in that particular issue, and I plan to make the same offer to the Police Advisory Commission. If there's any way that I might be able to work through an informal fashion some level of, you know, what's the deal here, what do you really want, what are you trying to get at, and mediate some of these issues. Because, ultimately, I think that -- I mean, one of the ways that a police-advisory- 561 2/14/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET commission kind of entity and the Police Department, the only way it really works is if there is a level of, you know, mutual trust, mutual cooperation, and an understanding of what everybody's role is. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yeah.
And to the extent that there can be somewhat a lessening of tension, animosity and just, you know, general disagreement, I think that the citizens ultimately benefit from it, and officers should benefit as well certainly in situations where not only have they been investigated by Internal Affairs but also by the Police Advisory Commission and found out that nothing happened, or that they've been cleared. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yeah.
I mean, in that instance, I think the officer gets the benefit of kind of a double clearance in a good, positive -- COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: I would be glad, Councilman, to sit down with you and the PAC Commission and go over some of these cases.
Okay, thank you. 562 2/14/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET The next one is a little bit of -- we have a great effort going on in our Commerce Department. We got a response just the other day. I asked the question in another hearing about what efforts are being made by the City to retain our college student population. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Mm-hmm.
You know, we're a great center for colleges and universities and a lot of people come here to get their education, and then, unfortunately, many of them leave. On the other hand, some of the students, while they're here -- at times we wish they weren't so enthusiastic about their activities while they're here with us, and the result, at least in many parts of my district is -- I mean there's -- you know, there's partying and then there is excess. And the parties, the music, the late-night activities -- and, I mean, not to disparage college students because some of this activity is conducted by citizens who are much older and who knew much better. But the point is, I guess, the issue of response to those issues. Now, you know, in a place like the 19th 563 2/14/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET District -- you know, Wynnefield, Overbrook, and some other places -- they can be jumping at night and during the weekends with far more important and higher-priority cases. And, you know, college students shouting and screaming out their windows doesn't really compare to a man with a gun, you know, fires, burglaries, you know, crime-in- progress kind of activity. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Mm-hmm.
Over in the 5th, you know, and they have stuff, you know, going on as well, but the same kind of activity. And I guess I just want to ask, to the extent that any of the captains -- and I'm going to go into a captain discussion. To the extent that the 911 Center and the officers have, I guess, a heightened sensitivity about, you know, the nature of that kind of quality-of-life activity and what it does to people and how it drives them crazy and, yes, I'm glad, you know, that someone's not crashing through the window. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Right.
But I got to tell you, 20 students or 20 young people at 2 o'clock 564 2/14/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET in the morning, you know, can cause you to almost commit a crime yourself. I mean, it will just drive you crazy. And, you know, sometimes the officers are like, you know, what, what are you calling me for, what are you bugging me about? I mean, they're just kids walking down the street. And I wanted to raise that with you. There are some other issues we can talk about later with regard to underage drinking and some of that activity that's going on related to some of our colleges and universities as well, but I appreciate your attention to that. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yes.
I know that it's a part of their training, and it's probably good for some of the officers, but can you -- we haven't talked about this for a while here in Council, but can you tell us a little bit about the philosophy behind what seems to be regular pattern of captain rotation. And it seems at times it's about a two- or three-year thing. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Right.
And other times, maybe pertinent to a particular -- or particular 565 2/14/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET to an officer, an even shorter period of time. Why do we -- we kind of get used to them, they kind of get to know all of the groups, they've met with them a few times, know the areas, the districts, sectors, and the next thing you know, they're gone and off to the side. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yeah.
Most of them never say good-bye. And the new one doesn't say hello. It's just -- they just, like, disappear. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: The new ones, if they don't say hello, I'll shoot on sight. We've have had this discussion already.
Yes, we have. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Although he did speak to your Chief of Staff a few times.
Yes, he did, he did do that. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: You know, one of the very conscious decisions we made at the outset of this administration was to choose what I consider the most important actors in the Department -- or everybody thinks they're important, myself included. But, really the most 566 2/14/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET important people are the district commanders. They're more important than anybody else 'cause they're the ones that have to listen to me, to you, to the citizens and to everybody else. They catch all of the problems. And so we went about the business of setting up incentives, including monetary incentives, for running those districts. They get new cars and a whole host of things to make those positions more desirable. We then did a (indiscernible) analysis where we rated all 13 districts in workload fashion and basically said 14 11 are B houses, entry-level houses, and 11 are 15 A. And ideally, you come in as a new captain and 16 you become in as executive officer, which is the 17 second captain in an A house. You learn the 18 tricks of the trade 'cause it's an extremely 19 difficult position. And then you go in -- if you 20 look like you're a good performer, you go into a B 21 house and you usually spend about two years there, 22 and then if you do a good job, you can move on to 23 an A house. 24 I was the District Police Commander up in New York. The public doesn't like to hear 567 2/14/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET this, but the fact of the matter is, the shelf life of a good commander is about two to three years. After three years, even the most talented, even the most talented start to get jaded, overwhelmed, they run out of new ideas -- no 7 matter how talented they are. And you're just better off, the community's better off with somebody new coming in, a new set of eyes coming in with new plans and new ideas. When I did this study in New York, there were one or two places that had serious corruption problems. It was when we started to leave commanders in there more than three years and four years, and people would go, Why, why did you leave? Well, because they know it well, they've been doing a great job, but they get jaded, and they take their eye off the ball and they're not on top of things. And it's just from personal experience, from professional experience, from speaking to hundreds of commanders over my career. Two or three years, I think, is a good time to -- you don't want them going and leaving before two years and you certainly don't want them leaving without 568 2/14/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET saying good-bye. But no more -- I don't think more than three years. I think it's asking an awful lot 'cause they have very, very demanding jobs.
Okay. Last question, Madam Chair. Commissioner, in your testimony on 7, I'd raised the issue with our Personnel Director back at the -- I guess it was back at the Fiscal Stability hearing. Your part here talks about a college degree initiative. I had asked the Personnel Director about -- and her day for the Operating Budget will be coming up shortly, but I had asked her about any tuition reimbursement programs that the City has for the entire employee workforce here. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Right.
I did mention to her that I was aware of the Police Department and the Fire Department having their own programs. First, you have two great people working on this -- Inspector Cooney and Captain Bloom, formerly of the 19th District. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: 19. 569 2/14/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET
Another one you took away from me, working on this, and I know that they've done a tremendous amount of work. They have some other ideas. And, one, I would like to ask on the day that the Personnel Director is here, 'cause we're going to have a lot of discussion about that, if they might be available that day to have that discussion too. I feel very, very strongly that given, quite frankly, the plethora of great institutions that we have in Philadelphia and in the Philadelphia area, anything that we can do to upgrade, for people who want to, the skills and talent and educational attainment levels for any of our employees is a good thing for the government and for the citizens that they serve, but especially for the Police Department and probably the Fire Department, two very critical life safety areas. And I don't get the impression that maybe -- I'll rephrase it. I think that there is more that we could probably do to help all of the departments and agencies, but certainly one that actually has a good program in place and has 570 2/14/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET established relationships with schools and a number of schools and probably others would join in, and what I'd like to get is a better sense of what are some of the things that we can do to help the Department in this particular area? COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Mm-hmm.
How do we encourage more officers, how do we provide maybe some either financial incentives or help underwrite some of these costs, similar to what the corporate community does for their employees. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Mm-hmm.
You maintain a certain grade point average, you don't have to pay, or you get reimbursed at the end of the year, any of that kind of activity. I think that we get the benefit -- hopefully they stay with us for some time, but we get the benefit of helping these officers, if they want, to further education. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Thank you for that, and I couldn't agree with you more. You know, a lot of police departments -- most notably New York and Chicago -- both departments require two-year college degrees 571 2/14/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET coming in. Because of the shortage of recruits, they have both now had to roll back those qualifications, and are now left open to the charge that somehow they're downgrading standards. Given the economy the way it is, given the difficulty that police departments across the nation are having in recruiting people into the service, it's my strong feeling that we keep the standards that we have -- presently high school education. That once we get somebody in, then -- we already have improved the standards up at the academy itself, from 32 to 40 weeks, but that additionally we have -- we, the institution, or the body of power there has an obligation to train them both at the academy and then formal training through college. And I've had these discussions, by the way, also with the Mayor. And he's also, you know, he leans favorably towards that. There's -- and I think -- I think everybody -- and I appreciate all of your help -- can help out. The one downside is the labor policies. There's always -- in this town, there's always labor policy issues. 572 2/14/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET
Right. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: And I'm not so sure how that shakes down. We also have to be real careful -- there were some bad experiences, for example, in Boston regarding how Boston has handled their initiative to improve education, where they help out on the side of extra money. I'm not necessarily in favor of that because I'd rather go for the quality of the education.
Right. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: And pay up front, as opposed to leave it up to the officers to get his or her education, and then pay them some enormous fee that becomes a long-term cost, and you can get a degree, you know, on back of the match book cover, at "Clover State College," you know, and you submit --
Right. Well, what I would ask -- this is the last thing -- is, one, if those officers can be available -- COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yes, sir.
-- for whatever day the Personnel Director is going to be here. 573 2/14/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Okay.
Because I am going to have a broader discussion about that. And, second, between now and then, if they can put together any information in the form of, let's say, a proposal or a budget or something like that, that, obviously with your approval, that says, you know, if we -- if we had X-amount of dollars, we would be able to, you know, upgrade our program or provide, you know, additional funding support for x-number of officers, and it's something that you know, you would like to see in place, and then essentially, it's kind of left to us as the elected officials going through a budget process to see if we can support something like that. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Mm-hmm.
But I'd at least need to know what it is and what it would do and how much it would take the Department farther. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Great. I appreciate that, sir.
Thank you. Thank you, Madam Chair. 574 2/14/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET
Thank you. The Chair recognizes Councilman Ortiz.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Commissioner, how are you doing. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Good afternoon, sir.
We've had some very good times this year. Glad that the 37. Now, what's the timeline for the 37 crossing guards? COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: I believe it's in September. Yeah, they will be coming on board. We're allowed to hire them after July 1 within the budget. So they will be added on the streets in September, you know, the next school year.
The problems that you and I spoke about in terms of what we have gotten in my office from different groups in the community, have they been resolved in terms of the crossing guards not getting the notices -- or people not getting the notice that the (indiscernible) are available? COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yes. Chief 575 2/14/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET (indiscernible) took care of that. I spoke to him.
And Operation Sunrise, I imagine you spoke about that while I was away. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yes, sir.
And what is the status of Operation Sunrise and -- COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Well, the Operation Sunrise is in its fourth phase, which we knew all along would be the most difficult. And if Commissioner Johnson wants to jump in here, I'll have him -- COMMISSIONER JOHNSON: In November, we went into Phase IV. And last week or a couple weeks ago, we extended it a couple blocks for the simple reason that in the 900 block of Indiana Avenue, we took down three major organizations. This gave us an opportunity to lock that area down and prevent other organizations from coming in. So, right now, since we have all of the operations of the Bureau for the first time -- we have patrol, we have detectives, we have special operations, we have narcotics that's there. So 576 2/14/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET we're in Phase IV, and that's going from Fifth Street to Germantown Avenue -- actually to Broad Street, and from York Street to almost up to Allegheny Avenue.
Commissioner, how could we measure the effectiveness of Operation Sunrise in terms of the public? How do we present the picture and say this has worked? What is the picture that we can present that is different when Phase I began, and now that Phase IV is on, what can we say to the people is the difference that is out there? For the record. COMMISSIONER JOHNSON: Well, the perception and the visibility. We're not going towards an arrest in -- numbers are not important to us. And we constantly have community meetings and talk to the people in Phase I, II, II, and in Phase IV. And I think if you ride through the neighborhoods yourself, you can see a visible difference of these areas. And in addition to that, we're being more proactive now than we've ever been. Normally, we've been reactive. I've been going to the different schools along with other, we go to 577 2/14/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET two or three different schools a week. We've also been going to the rehab community. In addition to that, we've been going to the prisons. So we're doing a lot of things now that we'd never done before. Instead of just being reactive to narcotics, we're being proactive to the narcotics. But I was there from the very beginning of Operation Sunrise Phase I. I constantly ride through there on a continuous basis, and I know Commissioner Nestel on the way to work, Commissioner Norris on the way to work, just to look at the area themselves and see how the visible area. Our important thing right now for us is the quality-of-life issues. Again, can people walk the streets, can children come out and play. And I believe from the people I've talked to, it's been a big improvement. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yeah.
Do we have that detail in a report that gives us a picture of what happened during Phase I? How many of the big distribution centers were broken up during that first, second, third phase and fourth phase? Do 578 2/14/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET we have that written somewhere that you can give to this Council a report? COMMISSIONER JOHNSON: Yes, I do. As a matter of fact, today I have -- and I'll give it to you right after the Council session is over. Just in the year 2000, we've tooken (sic.) down just in the East Division nine major organizations, but we have a detail synopsis of everything that's happened from the time we began until the present.
In terms of economics of the drug distribution centers that we have impacted during the last -- these four phases, what have been the economic impact on the drug-dealing machinery that was in place? COMMISSIONER JOHNSON: Say, for example, last year, again, this year, 2000, we've confiscated $56 million worth of narcotics and we've also gotten, like, close to 9 or $10 million in resources -- I mean, in currency. When we went over there, we went over there not to the idea of just law enforcement, because we went in with a lot of City agencies also, and I think the City agencies have been very 579 2/14/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET helpful to us that do a whole lot of other things that's involved in Operation Sunrise. What we're doing right now, at least we feel as though we've having a different approach, is that we're going after their resources, their accesses because we feel as though that -- and I think the Commissioner has already related to this. We make a lot of arrests over there, but if you arrest a person on Monday, especially if he's a buyer and he's addicted, in three days, he's going to be right back on the street and he's still going to be addicted, so that's why we started going to the rehab places. In addition to that, one day -- and I hope I'm not saying the wrong thing, but if the judges would realize that we want no drug dealers in the neighborhoods than anybody else wants them, and for them to continue to arrest 'em and have 'em come out there, it's still detrimental to everyone. The organizations that we arrest, we take federally. They don't come out. The ones that we take the sellers or the buyers, a lot of times they're arrested, and within one or two 580 2/14/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET days, they're right back out on the street.
But do you have -- you said 56 million in terms of this current year? COMMISSIONER JOHNSON: That's correct.
Do you have a totality of the last four phases and how we can measure that in terms of monies that have been impacted in terms of drug-dealing in the City. COMMISSIONER JOHNSON: Yes, sir, I do. And I will give that report to you this week.
Is the 25th and 26th still the warehouse of heroin and cocaine, or has that been maintained as such? And when can we begin looking towards eliminating that label from that area? COMMISSIONER JOHNSON: Well, the 25th, in my opinion, is probably a major place for heroin, and --
But then in previous testimony here, that area has been described as "the warehouse" by you and other commissioners before you. And I want to know if that terminology of that area being the warehouse of 581 2/14/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET the heroin, and which is supposed to be the purest of any type of heroin in the country, whether that label has been -- has been somewhat damaged and maybe eliminated. Or is it still -- or is it stilt focus of delivery and distribution? COMMISSIONER JOHNSON: Okay, in my opinion -- and I had a meeting with the D.A. -- it's still the focus point of heroin and narcotics coming into the City of Philadelphia, it's still coming to the East Division. As of last week, we still have the most purest heroin in the nation Philadelphia is still in Philadelphia.
Do we have -- how -- I mean, because Operation Sunrise was a part of a plan to really begin attacking that sort of situation. And what I want to know is, do we -- can we foresee a point? And I know that we have to attack those points of origin that come in, and obviously, we have to attack the consumer part of the issue, but do you see a point within the next few years in which the East Division can begin to lose that label? 582 2/14/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET COMMISSIONER JOHNSON: Councilman, in my opinion, I don't think law enforcement will ever resolve this problem, and we will definitely not solve that by ourselves.
I understand that. COMMISSIONER JOHNSON: Okay, I think the thing that law enforcement has done, especially over in the East Division, without the partnership of the community, the clergy, and everyone else involved in this, then we will never solve this problem. It's going more proactive right now but going through the schools with the education, going in there with the prevention, going in there with the treatment. Until all of these partnerships joins hands, we will continue to go in there and we will make numerous (indiscernible) arrests. Just in the Sunrise area in 2 years, we made close to 24,000 drug arrests, and we've confiscated, I guess, well over 80 or $90 million worth of narcotics. We take off (indiscernible) maybe 12, $15 million in cash. Law enforcement is doing its part -- at least in my opinion, but everyone else -- one of the difference from Phase 583 2/14/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET I to Phase IV, what we decided to do when we had the planning of Phase IV, we actually sat down with the community more so than going in there by ourselves and said, Here's what we're going to do. We brought them to the table themselves. In Phase IV, this will give us an opportunity, with the City services coming, with the community being involved in it to set up Town Watches, to set up black captains, to get everybody involved in this. But I think we've made a tremendous input into reducing the narcotics problem the East Division. But until everyone else gets involved in this, I think we will always have the problem. There's so much money involved in narcotics, it's that if we take away the (indiscernible) economy, there's going to have to be jobs, there's going to have to be other things coming into the area that the law enforcement doesn't have the authority to put there.
The enormity of the problem we understand and we understand about the aspect of the points of departure of the drugs in Columbia and Bolivia and the other parts of the Far East and also the part of the consuming 584 2/14/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET society and the treatment center that we don't have. And New York is trying to change somewhat in that they're repealing -- I hope they're repealing -- the Rockefeller laws that created a whole series -- and going towards treatment. Commissioner, in terms of the Special Victims Unit that we have been working on over the years, I'd like for the record -- to put on the record what have been the changes that have been brought about, the number of cases we -- that you have dealt and the units that -- the reforms that have been put into place. And when do you project that we could be moving the unit from the Frankford Arsenal to the new locale? COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Earlier in the testimony, we did reference all of that, including the hearings by your committee.
Okay. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: The due date for moving the location -- do you want to talk about that, Tom? DEPUTY COMMISSIONER NESTEL: Yes, Councilman, our special victims people are working very closely with the Capital Programs Office, and 585 2/14/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET as late as yesterday, actually visited a potential site to see if this would be to meet all of the needs of the department. The Capital Programs Office is very much involved in ensuring that this move does happen as quickly as possible.
Is the site that you are looking at large enough, that if we go into a collocation with other services of the City that they can be able to move into that? DEPUTY COMMISSIONER NESTEL: It is large enough, and part of the conversation yesterday was actually which spaces within that building would be allocated to which organizations and who needs to be on the bottom floor, who needs to be on the top, that type of conversation.
So, again, you don't have a line, but maybe before August, September, October? Or is that too optimistic? DEPUTY COMMISSIONER NESTEL: I really do not have a date. I can tell you that it will happen as quickly as reasonably possible, but I don't have a projected date for you, but I can assure you that there are constant conversations, constant meetings, and actually looking at a 586 2/14/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET potential site yesterday. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: I can also add at my one-on-one with the Mayor last week that this issue came up to kind of stress the importance to the Mayor, and the Mayor is fully aware of it and actually directed the Chief of Staff to make sure that -- and she spoke to the real property, that, you know, this is a rush job.
Right. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: That this is a number-one priority.
Commissioner, I'd like to just put on the record that, really, I think the reforms that have been done in terms of -- the most difficult reforms usually are not adding more individuals to a problem, but really changing the culture -- COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yeah.
-- of an institution. And the fact that the Department, yourself, and others were open to joining with us here and with the women's groups that came together, and they became active participants in the process of change and developing the way the 587 2/14/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET Department, or that section of the Department, would be organized and the investigation implemented, I don't think it's been done anywhere else in the country. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: It hasn't.
And I think it's something that we have to say that this is really a very enormative type of situation in which we see advocates and activists coming together with the Police Department and City Council to really bring about a change in the culture. And I -- it took -- it took some courage. I know that the resistance to change is large, but the change has been forthcoming -- maybe not as fast as we all expected it or as fast as the Inquirer would like. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yeah.
But I think it has been coming as quickly as we've been able to. I have to say, your cooperation in the process has been very good -- COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Thank you.
-- with myself and my committee, and I think we did something good. 588 2/14/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET We're not finished yet, though. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Right and I agree with you a hundred percent. It's --
Because we have to make sure that whatever we establish survives our tenure in public service. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yeah.
So that whenever those of us who are no longer around here -- you, myself and others -- those things can be maintained. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: I agree with you a hundred percent. Thank you very much, sir.
Thank you, thank you, Madam Chair. Gentlemen, I understand that -- if you've covered this already, I apologize, I had to leave the room momentarily 'cause there was a 589 2/14/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET event downstairs, and you'll appreciate why I left, referencing gun violence in the City of Philadelphia, so it's a very important event to attend. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: I thought you went down to detonate the bomb. (Laughter.)
I'm going to throw you a bomb right now. Could you just tell the members of Council here today about the realignment of the police districts. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yeah.
Where that stands, the rationale for doing that, and when it will occur. I understand that there's getting to be some realignments of various police districts throughout the City of Philadelphia. And what impact that will have on members of Council and the public in general. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yeah. We have, again, since the inception of this administration, looked to do a variety of things within the City. You change district boundaries with great 590 2/14/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET opposition, but you change them for two pretty basic reasons: One of them is if it improves dramatically police service to a specific area; and, two, to equal workload as much as possible. We have done two others prior to -- the one you're talking about involves up in the Northwest the 14th, the 39th, and the 35th districts. The very first boundary change that we've made in this department since I've been here was on South Street. South Street was covered by basically four districts, and being a busy commercial and pedestrian corridor, when you've got more than one person responsible for something, you have nobody responsible for it. And so when things would go wrong, the commanders would engage, as most people do, in finger- pointing -- no, it was his side of the street; no, it was his side of the street. And so we decided to change the boundaries for, in this case, the 3rd and the 6th Districts to move the boundaries north to Lombard Street so that just the 3rd District in South Philadelphia has total responsibility for the South Street corridor. 591 2/14/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET We looked in West Philadelphia at the 19th and the 16th District. The 19th District was one of the busiest. The 16th, which is right adjacent to it, was one of the least busy. And so we took, I believe it was, three or four sectors from the 19th and put them over to the 16th to try and equalize the workload. That has gone along -- it's been very, very successful. Again, you transfer the right amount of police officers from the 19th into the 16th and try and even the workload. When we looked at the Northwest, you have the 35th, the 14th, and the 39th. The 14th is a busy district, but the 35th is extraordinary, the busiest in the City, and they needed at least 50 police officers. But even if we had the 50 police officers to give them, there was no place to put them -- the building itself, the plant itself was physically incapable of handling another body. And so we set up the task of looking over how we could redistrict those three districts and the 5th also. We have taken, I believe, it's -- originally, it was five, but there was some 592 2/14/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET legitimate concern brought to our attention regarding one sector, and it seemed to make -- you know, just when we get involvement from the Council, members to cover that area, it seemed to make sense, and so we've taken four very busy sectors from the 35th and given them the 39th and the lower part of the 5th, again, to help equal the workload. And my sense is -- that goes effective -- the 9-1-1 computer alterations have been done, and that will be effective March 1. March 1 that will go effective.
Commissioner, is there anything we're going to do to let the constituents know that now they are serviced by a different police district? If they were accustomed to visiting the district that they presently reside in, are we going to communicate, maybe a letter? COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: No, no, no, we will get out -- through the Division Inspector, we will make sure that the -- particularly the community groups involved and then the block watches and Town Watch and people of that nature 593 2/14/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET will know that in the future, don't call the 14th, for example, call the 15th or call the 39th. We'll make sure all of those notifications get out.
Great. I hope that works. It sounds like it's a sensible approach to alleviate the problem that existed. Thank you. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Thank you.
Thank you very much. I just have three quick questions. Do you have an opinion, and have your commanders expressed any concern or positive areas about the pilot livestock program in the 3rd, 4th, and 6th District where we confiscate vehicles driven by unlicensed or unregistered drivers. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Mm-hmm.
First of all, is it still going on in those three districts? 594 2/14/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: It's still going on, yes, sir.
And would you have an opportunity to give us some numbers, say, within the last six months of what's been confiscated in those three districts? You can give it to the -- COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: We'll have to get back to you. What I can tell you is that that it is a very successful program, but of course, like everything else, there's an issue of capacity. You know, my only personal opinion, I'd love to do it citywide, but there isn't --
I guess my question is, how do your people report the time that the officer has to wait? COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Oh, okay.
And the response for the tow truck, that sort of thing. DEPUTY COMMISSIONER NESTEL: Councilman, that's all done right from the patrol car to Radio. When the vehicle is identified to be confiscated, Radio is notified. Radio makes 595 2/14/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET the notification to the tower. The officer notifies Radio when the tow truck arrives and when the tow truck actually removes the vehicle. So we are able to identify from beginning to end the total number of time and how much time is involved in each one of those segments. From my recollection, I believe the average total time is 32 minutes.
Does that seem to be too much time or -- DEPUTY COMMISSIONER NESTEL: No, that's very good.
Okay. DEPUTY COMMISSIONER NESTEL: But the tow truck actually is expected to arrive within minutes of them being notified. And when I'm 18 talking about this 32 minutes, I'm talking about 19 from time of stop to time of removal of the 20 vehicle.
So there's no 22 overall operational complaints from the line squad personnel and supervisors as far as having it disrupting their work day or disrupting their duties? 596 2/14/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET DEPUTY COMMISSIONER NESTEL: The -- actually, in the normal vehicle investigation, they're spending to minutes. This is adding 5 12 to 17 minutes to that. And we're getting 6 vehicles off the street that do not belong there. 7
Thank you. 8 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER NESTEL: And they 9 are not unhappy in any way. 10
Thank you. 11 Second area, dealing with cars also, I 12 know Councilwoman Verna has had a problem ongoing 13 -- in past years with the issue of drag racing, 14 but it's also a problem in other areas of the 15 City, and a lot of the drag racers, I understand, 16 like a lot of our drug buyers, come from areas 17 outside of the City. Young men and women who work 18 on vehicles very much like doing that kind of 19 stuff and then taking them to a location and race 20 them against each other. Do we have the authority to confiscate or impound those vehicles when we stop them? And what's difference, I guess, between our ability or authority to impound a unregistered vehicle as opposed to another vehicle that's doing other 597 2/14/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET unlawful activities? 'Cause I believe -- COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Well, on the unlawful activities, it's usually carrying contraband.
Right. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: You know, that's the rationale. On the license and registration, I mean, you can't drive -- you're not allowed to drive a car unregistered and uninsured, and so we just hook you up --
You're kidding me. That's not true, this is Philadelphia. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Oh, you're a cynic.
We have a different set of rules here. (Laughter.) COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: But we actually looked into -- we had Fran (indiscernible) look into the issue of -- 'cause I would love to take those cars, and I spend a lot of nights down there 598 2/14/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET on Essington Avenue and all those places down in the 12th and --
Here's -- I have a suggestion, and I don't know whether it's workable or not. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yeah.
I think in the area of drag racing, you're going to have a good effect if you take the car. That's their pride and joy. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Oh, absolutely, it would be great.
And if they know that they're coming to an area that they could potentially lose -- I mean, you may have a hundred cars on a given night. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yeah.
And you may be able to only cordon off 10 or 12 and book those, but those 10 or 12 people are not going to want to go through that possibility of losing that car again. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yeah.
And I guess the question is, do we arrest people for drag racing or do we just ticket them? 599 2/14/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: We give them summonses. And the interesting part, the interesting part, much like the skaters outside, they pay their summonses. So this is like, when you pull him over and you figure, well, he's got an outstanding warrant for failure to pay, no, they actually pay 'em.
'Cause my hope would be to -- we could get around the lack of authority to tow in a number of instances by simply saying we wanted to keep the car in a safe condition by taking it off the street so it's not stolen and it's not stripped. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yeah.
Same thing with the person who buys drugs in the City and is arrested for the purchase of drugs, that those cars need to be taken, for example, to a Parking Authority impoundment lot. Not to confiscate or own them, but simply to keep them safe. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yeah.
Therefore, the person, when they get out of jail, needs to come to the Parking Authority impoundment lot, pay the 600 2/14/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET tow fee, make sure that they have the registration, that there's no tickets, all of those kind of things. It's an extra added inconvenience for the perpetrator of any of these kind of nuisance crimes to kind of get their car off the street. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yeah.
I mean, is there any way we could deal with that on the drag racing side and find some way to take -- (Unintelligible, parties talking over each other.) COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yeah, I know, because I was getting so many complaints from Councilwoman Verna, I was out there personally in the 12th District. We did everything: we lined them up, we kept them for two or three hours as the (indiscernible). And actually, it's cooled off somewhat down there.
But the question, I guess, is -- COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: But as the law is written out -- I'll check with the lawyers when I get back the law. As the law is written, when 601 2/14/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET we checked a few months ago, there was no ability to tow them. It would have been so much easier as far as I was concerned.
I mean, the only way we'd be told not to is if, in fact, someone challenged our ability to do it in court, wouldn't they? I mean, if a judge told us, Stop towing the cars, you don't have the authority to do it, I mean, it's not like you're taking someone's liberty; you're just moving their car to a location that's centralized and that they have to go back and pick it up at a certain time, you know -- COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: No, but I think the law is pretty clear that, you know, if somebody -- in this case, it's speeding. The law says if somebody's caught speeding, they get arrested. There's no provisions within the law to confiscate.
Does this offense not rise to the level of reckless endangerment? I mean, you're endangering the people around you, endangering yourself, you're endangering the other drivers and the spectators, and you're doing it a 602 2/14/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET in a wanton way. I mean, we need to crank up the offense. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: No, I remember even looking at that myself, could you lock them up criminally with -- that it was, in fact, not just speeding, that it was reckless. And the answer I got from the lawyers was, no, you can't, and the vehicle traffic law is quite explicit in this area.
So you need some assistance from Harrisburg to do that. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yeah.
I was going to suggest that. In fact, I believe -- Commissioner, didn't we talk to one of the State reps in that district? COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: That's correct.
And ask him to look into how they can help -- COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yeah, yeah.
-- to address this issue? COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: I'll talk to my lawyers, you know, when we get back. But we 603 2/14/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET haven't gotten as many complaints as --
Spring hasn't arrived. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Oh, so it was the winter, okay.
It's not a winter activity. I just have one more question, on gun permits. I know the story in the Daily News yesterday about the gun permit problem, and I know how you feel about illegal guns and gun play and gun problems. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yeah.
If we turn these people down for various reasons, they get a lawyer and they go to Common Pleas Court or Commonwealth Court? Where do they wind up? COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yeah, we can't even turn them down now.
We can't turn them down now? COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: No, unless they 604 2/14/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET -- you know, the only way we can turn them down is if they got a conviction for certain felonies, or they're certifiably nuts. You know, we have --
They have to be certifiably nuts, not just apparently. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: It's a quirk of the law that you can be nuts and admit yourself to the hospital and you get to keep your gun. It's only when the cops commit you that we could take the gun.
I see a number at the L&I Review Board, a number of these seemingly appeals to turndowns of, it says, "firearms permits," and they usually do them all in one day. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yeah, we turn them down, and they're saying it's not for a good reason.
And the L&I Review Board reverses? Or the board -- which is the location that they go to appeal these, is what I'm -- I mean, when you turn someone down and they disagree -- COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Right.
-- where do they 605 2/14/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET go? COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: (Confers off record with colleagues.)
It's the L&I Review Board. I mean, are they reversing the -- DEPUTY COMMISSIONER NESTEL: The L&I Review Board has that initial hearing and can reverse the decision of the Department.
Do you know percentage of reversals the L&I Review Board does? DEPUTY COMMISSIONER NESTEL: Since the Commissioner has been having an attorney go with our people to represent them, it is much, much less than it was in the past. It does not happen that frequently.
So we could actually be turning more people down and be successful in keeping them from getting a gun? DEPUTY COMMISSIONER NESTEL: The -- our ability to turn them down has been greatly hampered by the State decision that the individual does not have to prove a reason to have it. We have to prove why they're not eligible to have 606 2/14/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET it. As in the past --
The burden's on you. DEPUTY COMMISSIONER NESTEL: Right. And it's very explicit as to what we can do that on. And it's mainly criminal record or mental problems. Other than that, the individual has the right to have a permit.