And the mental problems, you have to have your papers, in other words? COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Right, exactly. Now, we have been much more aggressive, though, and this is to the credit of the police officers out there, because they see there Brad Richmond, who is really aggressive in revoking these permits. So, for example, up in the 35th District, we ran into a whole host of cases where drug dealers out on the corner, when the police would pull up, the guy would (indiscernible) I got a permit because the drug dealers are getting smart in hiring -- here's the permits. Well, we come up and now we're revoking those if it's clear 607 2/14/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET that you're a drug location body guard for body guards, we take 'em. Now, Brad's been very aggressive in this whole area.
Does the officer on the scene have the ability to take the permit and the gun at the time? COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: That's what they do, they take them -- they send them down to Brad and then the begins process of revoking them.
You're welcome. The Chair recognizes Councilman Rizzo.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Commissioner, you may be aware or you may not be aware, but recently, I got a letter and personally observed that there's significant speeding on the Kelly Drive, the Lincoln Drive, and it's 35-miles-an-hour posted. And I understand that our -- and forgive me for not knowing the proper terminology. I'll call it "a VAS car," speed-control devices since Philadelphia 608 2/14/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET police not permitted to use radar. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Right.
And I find that that whole program has kind of fallen between the cracks. The officers that were trained in the use of the speed-control devices are no longer there, the systems don't work well. I just understand that there were requests for speed devices by various commanders and they were told the money's not in the budget. Now, to help out, since I have a good relationship with the Pennsylvania State Police, the Park Unit and Pennsylvania State Police joined hands about a month ago, and the State Police used their radar car and our police officers issued the tickets, and the State police officer countersigned the tickets, which worked very well. I'd like to suggest that we maybe continue that because Captain Lacrosse (ph.) at Belmont indicated that he's certainly in a position to help with that on a sporadic basis, where it's not a big impact on their operation, but, you know, they'd been be willing to expand and work with the Philadelphia police, so maybe this -- I don't know 609 2/14/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET if the State police have ever involved themselves in the drag racing issue, but their power seemed to be, in that area, a little more so than we have. But beside that, the problem -- could you just -- maybe, again, this is not something that's risen to your level, but maybe could you check to find out why we don't have this speed- control device and the officers trained in the use of it? COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: I will look into that you but, by the way, you hit on a good point. So, for example, the State police, which has always baffled me, have powers within Philadelphia that the Philadelphia police officers don't have. For example, a State police officer can go down to these tow-car places down in Southwest Philadelphia and go in and conduct an inspection, but a member of the Philadelphia's Auto Crime Unit can't go in and do the administrative review to see if there are any stolen cars there. We're in the process of trying to address those things. We should have -- if this is what is referred to as a "Class A city," we should have 610 2/14/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET all of the powers that any other police agency has in the State in regards to what goes on in the City.
I've asked that same question, and I'll be real candid: it's political. The use of radar is something that I'm sure they don't want all of the police departments -- and we got around that by using the VAS car, or whatever we call the units that we currently have. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Yeah.
But, again, the State police are willing to work with us in doing the speed enforcement, and I understand that in a couple afternoons out on the Kelly and also the West River Drive, that joint effort was very, very effective, but I would like to say our units re-equipped, if that is the case, with the ability to enforce speeding. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: I will take a look at that.
Thank you, Commissioner. COMMISSIONER TIMONEY: Thank you. 611 2/14/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET
You're welcome. Are there any other questions from members of the committee? (No further questions.)
This committee will stand in recess until 3 o'clock this afternoon. - - - (Hearings before Committee of Whole re KOEZs held.) - - - (Proceedings resume.)
This is the continued public hearing of the Committee of the Whole regarding Bill No. 01005. We have someone here from the Art Museum. If they would please approach the table. (Witnesses come forward.)
Good afternoon. Please identify yourself for the record and proceed with your testimony. 612 2/14/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET
Good afternoon, Madam President. Happy Valentine's Day to you and the Councilmembers.
I am Anne D'Harnoncourt, Director of the Philadelphia Museum of Art. I'm delighted to be here with my colleagues -- Gail Harrity, Chief Operating Officer at the Museum; and Cheryl McClenney- Brooker, our Director of External Affairs -- to testify on behalf the Art Museum for our Operating Budget for Fiscal 2002. This is our 125th anniversary year. We are celebrating all yearlong with all of our audiences, with exhibitions of great artists associated with Philadelphia -- from Alice Neal, born near Philadelphia 101 years ago, a show that opens tomorrow and the weekend; Bob Venturi and his wife, Denise Scott Brown, the great architects, still alive and working in Philadelphia today; the great African-American Dox Thrash; and Thomas Eakins, the celebrated painter for the Pennsylvania Academy. 613 2/14/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET We're celebrating with gifts for our collection in any way we can. Details of our program and our mission are in the written testimony, which you have. I would just like to emphasize a few short points. This is a very special year for the museum; you don't get to be 150 years young every year around the globe, and we want to make it very special for all of Philadelphia. And we hope that Council feels -- and pretty sure that you do -- as we feel that the City's long-standing support and partnership with the museum for operating and capital budgets over so many years is a good long-term investment in the well-being not only of the museum, but in this great city and its citizens we seek to serve. It's an investment in education, in quality of life, and in the ability of all of our visitors to come in contact with a great original work of art, an investment and economic benefit to the City. We had 860,000 visitors last year, probably close to a million this year. And with projects such as the wonderful Van Gogh Portrait Exhibition, which just closed, and which I hope 614 2/14/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET brought many of you and your constituents to see the Dutch master face to face, we really do strive as hard as we can to provide enjoyment and new knowledge and new lifelong learning opportunities to people not only from everywhere in Philadelphia but from around the world who come to discover Philadelphia. And we want to do more. 250 operating support, which is currently budgeted for the museum in Fiscal 2002 is really crucial to our operations. As you all know, that amount has remained flat for six years now, during a period when the cost of providing fundamental building services -- security, maintenance -- has risen to $5,830,000, which just leaves an increasing shortfall in the City's, you know, ongoing and staunch area of support, while we strive to provide more and more and better and better service in the areas of programs, of exhibitions, of reaching kids in Title I schools, of reaching kids in universities. We're a part of this high-tech world ourselves and are increasingly involved with reaching people by distance-learning across the Internet and in caring for our collections, which 615 2/14/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET we hold in public trust, particularly for the citizens of Philadelphia, but also for the world, which enjoys them. And I just should say that the cost of mounting a great exhibition like the Van Gogh exhibition or like the projects we plan for this spring are steadily increasing, and they bring great economic and great social and great aesthetic benefit to the City and to the region, and we want to keep doing more. And we recognize that the City has a multitude of needs, and we so very grateful to the Council, both individually and collectively, and to the Administration for its thoughtful support.
And we hope that at the positive moment in the out-years, there will be opportunities for some in that support, which has been flat for so long, and which means so much to it, because as you invest in us, we invest in the City and in every kind of opportunity we can bring to all of the citizens and to everyone who needs to find out what a very great place Philadelphia is. And this is a moment for us to celebrate, it's a moment that -- Valentine's Day 616 2/14/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET is a very auspicious occasion in which to be testifying. This is the city not only of brotherly love, but love of the arts and love of education, and we plan to play a very important part in that love and in that -- those exciting field in our next 125 years. And we thank the Council for its support.
Thank you. And we want to thank you for the magnificent work that you do. The Art Museum is certainly the jewel of our city, and I will make certain that the stenographer has your complete testimony so that it will be in the record.
Thank you. Are there any questions from members of the committee? (No questions.) (Councilwoman Tasco responds off-mic.)
Thank you. It's completely our pleasure. Come to the one that opens this weekend.
Thank you 617 2/14/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET again. Philadelphia Prisons is next. (Witnesses come forward.)
Thank you very much for your patience. We do have a copy of your written testimony, which we will give to the stenographer, and it will be printed in full. If you could simply abbreviate, Mr. Costello, we would appreciate it.
Okay. Good afternoon, President Verna and members of City Council. I'll be very brief. With me today is Mr. Dan Rakowski, our Director of Administrative Services; Ed Syzmanski, our Fiscal Officer. And thank you for the opportunity to testify and answer any questions you may have concerning our FY '02 Operating Budget. We have submitted more extensive written testimony, as you have stated, and I would just like to point out a few of the highlights for this year's budget. The $145 million budget for FY '02 is based on the projected average daily population of 7,063. The General Fund Class 100 request of 618 2/14/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET $82.9 million will fund an average of 1989 full-time positions. The General Fund Class 200 will allow for the transfer of contracted maintenance services for the Curran Fromhold Correctional Facility from Public Property to the PPS, funding for the full implementation of expanded Behavioral Health Services with the prison health contract, full year costs of operating the Cambria Community Center. The FY '02 budget will also allow us to maintain our facilities in a safe secure, manner, provide adequate medical and mental health services, and now allow us to continue all of our inmate services programming. It's important to note that absent the current population controls that we currently have, which are very critical to the Department, we would probably have to house an additional 1300 inmates. I need to point that out as a note for the Population Control Unit. That basically concludes my testimony. And I'm here to answer any questions you may have, along with my colleagues. Thank you.
Thank you. 619 2/14/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET Mr. Costello, you indicate in the Five-Year Plan that the prison system will add approximately 1,000 new beds. When will these new beds become operational? And can you tell us where the location will be for these new beds or the facility?
Yes, President Verna. The 1,000 new beds will consist of new facilities. One is a leased facility located at 17th and Cambria, which is a community treatment center for women. That is scheduled to open between April the 1st and April the 15th of this year. That is 232 beds. The other project is also a female facility, located on grounds of the House of Corrections, which will have a total of 768 beds. And that is scheduled to open sometime early in FY '03.
What are the staffing requirements for new beds?
The staffing requirements for the new community center is about 35 line staff and about 4 supervisory staff, along with program staff. Most of the staff that's 620 2/14/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET required to operate this facility will come from existing staff positions that we will be able to transfer and redeploy to operate that facility. The staffing for the women's detention facility is -- consists of grant total of 232.
I'm somewhat confused in that in light of the added capacity, how are you going to be able to reduce your position level from 2,236 in your adopted FY '01 budget to 2,202 in FY '02?
My name is Edward Szymanski, Fiscal Officer for the Prisons. We've reevaluated the staffing plans over the course of the last year, and based on the design of the facility, we felt that we could get by with the number of positions that are indicated in this Fiscal '02 budget.
Okay. Mr. Costello, you state in your testimony, on 2/14/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET 2, that two transitional behavioral health units will be established. When will they be established and what will their locations be? Will they be staffed by City employees?
Yes, they will be staffed by City employees -- they will be staffed -- actually, the treatment staff will be the members of the of the PHS Corporation, which provides our medical services. The two behavioral transition units are going to be located at PICC, the female unit. The female unit is going to be on A Unit at that facility, and the male unit will be on K Unit at that facility. And we have already began transferring -- starting to transfer inmates to those -- to the A Unit, and we hope to start the operation on K Unit either this month or next month.
Thank you. Please explain how you plan on reducing your General Fund overtime in FY '02 by approximately $1.3 million in light of the negotiated pay raise that takes effect in FY '03, as well as a higher projected prison population. 622 2/14/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET
Basically what we plan to do within the next fiscal year is to redeploy staff from certain facilities, such as the new community center. We'll have a physical plant that's more conducive to better staff deployment. There will be efficient savings from that operation. There will also be some -- there will be some savings for the new study center operation, which we plan to redeploy. We have also expedited our hiring process for the system for correctional officers, and we feel that we can hire staff in a more timely manner and reduce significantly the number of -- the amount of overtime required from that initiative.
Why are you able to reduce roll call adjustment by $2.9 million in FY '02?
That roll call adjustment item that you're see in there is -- let me check that line item. The 3 million bonus, the $1500 bonus showed up in that line. It wasn't actually roll call; it was the bonus. We ran out 623 2/14/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET of lines on the form and ended up putting the $3 million one-time bonus that the employees received last year on Line 10.
Thank you. The Chair recognizes Councilman Rizzo.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Commissioner, a few weeks ago, maybe just a week ago, we had a conversation with the Health Department, I believe, and Estelle Richman in reference to drug treatment in the prison system here in the City of Philadelphia. Could you describe what you presently do for inmates that come in that are addicted to drugs, have alcohol problems?
We have one of the best correctional drug -- substance-abuse treatment programs in the business currently, and I think we talked about this as far as the -- the name of the program is calls "Options." And, you know, the services are made available to those who are amenable to substance-abuse treatment, to our program. And we have a number of those who are also court-ordered 624 2/14/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET for this type of treatment. They are screened and they are given the appropriate level of treatment based on their particular individual situation. Right now, we probably have about 850 slots to provide drug treatment for those who are amenable to treatment, and it consists of many phases, including several therapeutic communities which we have throughout the prison system for more intense drug treatment to outpatient counseling, one-on-one, or group therapy.
Commissioner, there's some conversation that you just described this program that you have. Do you see a need for a methadone program in your system? Do you see a need for that?
We are looking at -- we are -- I see a need for it. I support the methadone detox program, and we are taking initial steps to implement that program.
Do you have money to cover that. 625 2/14/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET
I don't know exactly what it's -- have Mr. Savitz from the Health Department.
I don't blame you for not knowing the number; I can't remember my phone number some days, so don't feel bad about that.
I'm Barry Savitz, Assistant Health Commissioner. We're in the process of planning the implementation a methadone detox program with the Philadelphia prison system under its leadership, along with the State Department of Health, the Drug Enforcement Administration, and the Food and Drug 626 2/14/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET Administration. The cost of that will be borne by Prison Health Services as a part of its contract.
Commissioner, is this an accepted treatment in Pennsylvania? Do we do methadone? I was led to believe that we don't do methadone in our state and federal institutions.
It is an accepted treatment modality within the Commonwealth. And in Philadelphia, we have 3100 methadone treatment slots. And elsewhere -- this would be the first one in the State. Based on Secretary Timoney's testimony this morning about the purity of heroin and the fact that heroin is high in quality and readily available, this indicates the need to place people who long-term use heroin on methadone so they do no present a risk to the public safety and do not transmit diseases.
Let me ask my question again. In correctional institutions in the State of Pennsylvania, is methadone used?
There is no licensed program at this time, although the Commonwealth is considering such a program and the Department of 627 2/14/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET Corrections. It is used in Rykers Island, in Washington, DC jails, and in other locations throughout the country.
I'm asking about the State of Pennsylvania, sir. Is methadone used? Simple: yes, no? Is methadone used in the State of Pennsylvania's correctional facilities?
Not to my knowledge in Pennsylvania. Or elsewhere in the country.
Based upon the nature of the drug usage, which in heroin has dramatically increased over the last few years. We have to treat adequately the person based upon the specific drug, and heroin has made a resurgence in Philadelphia, as it has on the East Coast, over the last few years.
And how much do you have budgeted to implement this program? 628 2/14/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET
The cost of the methadone itself is relatively small. It's basically the use of existing staff to administer the methadone and to follow a detox schedule. We anticipate that the number of persons who would be served by this would be relatively few, somewhere in the order of persons a movement. 9
Sir, again, the 10 question: How much money is being budgeted for 11 the methadone program? 12
Sir, I'd like to know, if you haven't already budgeted, could you turn to the page that has that information and tell me how much money you have budgeted for this program. I mean, this isn't a trick question, and you're trying to be tricky here. 629 2/14/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET
No, Councilman, with respect, the money is part of the -- is included as part of the contractual relationship with Prison Health Services. The cost of the methadone per day, and it's usually a 21-day detox, is $1 per day.
Would you please get back to us through the Chair to let us know?
I don't mean to be argumentative, but when we ask a question, I don't want to play musical chairs here either.
So there's a dollar amount that you've asked to implement this program and manage this program, and simply, this is what this is, the budget process here, and that's information that we need to know.
Thank you. Councilman, go have any other questions?
Thank you. The Chair recognizes Councilwoman Miller.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Good afternoon, Commissioner.
I'd just like to get more detailed information regarding the employment vocational training program that's on of your testimony. As a District Councilperson and just as one that's worked in human services all of my life, people coming out of prisons have constantly called to ask for help regarding finding employment, so I'd just like to know a little bit more about your employment placement rates and if you are, in fact, helping 631 2/14/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET people find employment, or what is the job development scheme, or just what happens to help inmates secure employment. You have 44 trade categories that people are being trained in, and how is that being utilized once they leave prison because ex-offenders -- I mean, certainly you know better than I -- are very hard -- it's very hard for us to help ex-offenders find employment.
Yes, Councilman, we -- there are a couple of initiatives that we have concerning the employment initiatives for those being released and preparing them for jobs. The point person for the Department is Alan Appel, our Director of Inmate Service.
And he has coordinated recent activities concerning job employment for inmates. Alan, can you give a summary.
Certainly. We have over the last six months created a group of job developers, shop trainers, and private employers. And we have been meeting regularly to work out a 632 2/14/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET process through which inmates who leave the prison system can get either additional job training or be placed in an appropriate job.
I'm sorry. Is JEVS a part of that job development plan?
Okay. I'm sorry, I didn't mean to cut you off. You can continue.
We also have job developers that work with the inmates who are on our work release program to help them find and maintain jobs.
Okay, so how many people are released maybe just on the average? I don't need a specific count, but if you have 1,000 people -- if you have 1,000 vocational training slots, I'm sure that out of 7,000 prisons, I think you said you have here -- well, that's projected. Out of 6,000 prisoners. I guess my bottom line question is, how many people have you actually helped place in employment?
I do not have that number, 633 2/14/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET but we will certainly get back to you immediately.
Okay. So then when people that are being released from Philadelphia prisons call my office or whatever, then I know that there's a job placement counselor that we can in turn call to work with, to maybe work together as a team, to help them find employment, or as they're coming out of the door, do they already have a job or a high potential for a job?
But only a small group of those. So the inmates who are on work release have work when they are released. Some of the inmates that go through our job training have work when they are released. But certainly not all.
Okay. And once a person leaves, then do they work with the Probation Department? Does it continue there just in terms of helping them locate and find employment or get maybe referred to some type of maybe PIC program or some other kind of workforce 634 2/14/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET development program to help them find employment? 'Cause what I'm finding are people just hanging out there on their own, trying to find employment. And I'm wondering if there are resources that are available or if there's something that's in the system that's designed to help these individuals so that, you know, they're not just right out there, and the next thing you know, they're committing a crime and coming right back to prison.
Right. There is help through the Adult Probation Office. There are community organizations such as the Pennsylvania Prison Society that have job developers that work specifically with inmates to have them released.
Okay. Do you know whether -- are they contracted to do that kind of a service, or is it something that they just want to do on their own?
That is something that they do with the monies that they get through the United Way and through some of the other provided funds that they receive through grants and whatnot. 635 2/14/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET
Okay. One of the areas that we have found to be, you know, pretty open in terms of taking people that are ex-offenders are the trade unions. So if someone -- when you're doing your training, and maybe we can talk about this at some other time. When you're doing your training under the trade categories, maybe there's some kind of way that if you're going to have someone there on a long-term basis or maybe some of the training could be around skill development and academic development that would help people to qualify of life for some of the apprenticeship programs that could lead to higher-paying jobs, maybe long-term employment. Are those the kinds of things that are taken into considers when you're designing your curriculums and designing your programs?
Well, we look at a number of things, but one of the challenges that we have is that the average length of stay is less than three months. So when we create a job-training program, we have to look at a very short program that can get someone ready to hold an entry-level job. We just don't have someone long enough to do 636 2/14/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET a much more involved training.
Thank you. The Chair recognizes Councilman Nutter.
Thank you, Madam Chair. I actually had some questions in the same area. Did I hear you say that the average length of stay -- is this for all inmates, the 7,036 inmates? You said the average length of stay in our system is three months.
Less. It's 74.5 for last fiscal year men. For the juveniles, they are 142 days.
For the adult males. And for the direct file juveniles, they're averaging 140 -- they averaged 142.2 last fiscal 637 2/14/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET year. The females, the adult females, are at 54.4 average length of stay, days of average length of stay. And the juvenile females are 56 days as an average.
Well, Councilman, I'd love to answer that question. The problem is that we're still defining the word "recidivism." If we were to take a snapshot, which we did recently, of those have been in our system prior to their current incarceration, the recidivism rate would be about 78 percent. That means that they were in our system at least one other time, so 78 out of 100 have been through our system at least one other time. We are currently now looking at a mechanism to measure recidivism, and the definition will probably change that rate significantly lower than just the 78.
Well, I know that Prisons Commissioner is, you know, a pretty powerful position. How are you going to change the definition of recidivism? I mean, isn't there 638 2/14/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET a definition? Are you working with Webster or something like that?
Well, the correctional dictionary would tell you that the rate of recidivism are those who have been convicted of a crime and have been subsequently convicted of a crime.
That's the rate. The problem is trying to gather that data and also categorize that into various categories of recidivism. If someone -- did they -- are they a recidivist after being involved in a program, completing a program. Are they a recidivist because they did not participate in any program or the educational treatment or otherwise. So I think there's different categories that we're trying to define to truly measure the rate of recidivism in this county.
Okay. Well, you gave us the average length of stay. That's the average length of leave?
I don't know, Councilman. 639 2/14/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET
So we know how long people stay with us and we know that 78 percent of them come back to us, but we don't know from -- if somebody gets out today, we don't know how soon it will be before they make a return visit to our wonderful facilities?
Okay. Now, is 78 percent high in your world, in the correctional world?
I would say that the 640 2/14/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET numbers vary, and other departments are very reluctant to report the statistics for this category, but I would say that a more acceptable rate would be closer to between 55 and 60.
So based on that number, you're saying that in the criminal justice world, an acceptable rate is that half of the people that you have, you expect to see them back.
Well, it all depends on the definition. We would say that 50 percent is not --
What's our goal? I mean, we can't continue to run a system like that.
I guess I just asked what -- I mean, do we have a goal? Is there a number that -- I mean, you obviously, at 78, you said you think 55, 60 is better, and I would agree. I mean, is that the number that you're trying to get to? Are you trying to get to 40? How do other municipalities compare and what's going on in the rest of the State? I mean, if you don't have a lot of that, you can certainly get back. 641 2/14/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET
Okay. I know Councilman Rizzo asked you some questions about drug treatment, and I'm not going to have a what-you-do-and-how-do-you-it debate. What I didn't want to know is, of the 7,063 inmates, which is your daily population, what number or what percentage of them have a drug-abuse or a substance-abuse problem?
Historically, the latest statistics would show about 80 percent have some type of substance-abuse problem --
All right, so that gets us somewhere in the 1400, 1500 range?
5600 would have some type of either drug or alcohol problem at the time 642 2/14/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET of their arrest.
Okay, 5600 have a problem. And how many drug-treatment slots are there?
Currently, we have for -- our Options slots are about 850 as of today.
Well, I would say, on a regular basis, we probably have about a 500-slot waiting list for those who are amenable to substance-abuse treatment through our programs for drug treatment or --
There's no 18 requirement that because you have a substance-abuse problem and you happen to be in prison, that you have treatment?
There's no requirement. There are court-ordered Option placements, those who are court-ordered for drug treatment, and we provide them with it whether they want it or not, at least initially. 643 2/14/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET
What would happen if you started getting more court-ordered treatments? Suppose every person that was found to have a substance-abuse problem, the D.A. sought to ask the judge to order that the person to have drug treatment, which, I mean, would only kind of make sense, but we'll have that discussion subsequent. I mean, what would you do if. . .
Well, we obviously would not be able to carry out the order. On a regular basis, I would say we haven't really entertained that question because I think the most -- the average number of court-ordered drug treatments are actually very few compared to those who are voluntarily in the program.
All right. So let me just make sure I understand what the situation is. You've got 7,000 inmates, 5600 of them have a substance-abuse problem, 800 of them can get treatment whether they like it or not, and 4800 people can go through the system for however long they are with us and never have any treatment.
Well, out of the 4800, though, only about 500 would be amenable to drug 644 2/14/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET treatment. If they're not amenable, if they're not willing to accept it and admit they have a problem, then we're not going to offer it to them.
And most of the -- (Unintelligible, parties talking over each other.)
. . . you're not going to give it to them anyway, right?
Okay. Let's talk a little bit about the educational services. Sixteen hundred inmates go through some kind of educational or training program; is that correct?
Of the 7,000 inmates, how many of them have either a high school diploma or a GED?
We have that information, Councilman. We're just looking it up.
By their self-report, 2524 have a GED or a high school diploma, and then approximately 250 have beyond high school. 645 2/14/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET
Okay. So I assume that -- what was that, 2525 and then another 250 --
All right, so 27, 2800 people have either a high school diploma, a GED, or some college training. Then assuming that most of those individuals don't seek any educational services while there they're in the system because, I mean, they pretty much have what we will offer.
So that leaves you with, what's that, 3200? 4200? 4200 people that have -- you have 28 with something, 42 without, right?
And out of the 4200, you're saying that 1600 participate in something?
Okay, what do we do with the other 26? 646 2/14/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET
Right. And with the monies that we have, we do the best that we are able.
It's money that comes out of the School District, Councilman.
I'm sorry, did you say it comes out of School District?
The School District funds teachers for our education program.
We also have a number of volunteers that do literacy training, and that's a large number of inmates that get involved. We also have our own prison staff to do GED prep with the aid of a computer-based program.
Thank you. This is my last question. Could you forward to the Chair more detailed information in 647 2/14/01 - FY '02 OPERATING BUDGET the area that Councilwoman Miller was asking about with regard to employment or the vocational training program, who provides the training, how many people. If you have any of that information -- do we track any of the folks who have gone through any of our programs? Do we know how many are actually still in jobs? Do we know any of the folks who have gone through the program, are they back in the system? I know that's probably a part of your redefining recidivism exercise, but if you could get some information about that, I'd be very interested.