good morning everyone they should be in
morning everyone my name is bill bergman and i will be chairing this morning's zba hearing
with me is our board member cheryl l gaston present mr chairman board member tennetta
graham president mr chairman our board member michael johns president mr chairman board member
ryan mcadams present mr chairman also present here is uh our board attorney hillary emerson
and our zoning board director aane hagerty our hearing a recording of the hearing will be posted
on zba website by participating you consent to be recorded this is an in -person meeting with
remote capabilities whether remote or in person if you're called to speak you must state and spell
your name then wait to be sworn in once you've been sworn in please state your name each time
before you begin your testimony any person may enter their appearance to become an interested
party there are three ways we can identify the case property address in your zoom webinar
you can see a staff member or you can call the zba appearance line by the close of business tomorrow
call 267 -270 -5548 leave a message that includes your email and the address of the property of
the appeal case. Following guidance is for remote attendees. When directed, you must raise your
virtual hand in order to be recognized to speak. If you're called to testify, you'll be prompted
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is for questions about the hearing. Do not comment on cases in the Q &A. Fourth, if you're participating
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please follow the directions given over the public address system or by staff the main exit is through
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in case of evacuation the rally point is at love park directly across arch street
please remain there so we can account for you let's look at our schedule for today
number five mi 2025 000 439 6027 hazel hearth street
alicia grain green is the owner it's a pro se um we need several documents for this case
are you here okay good morning chair this is jasmine and i will be your co -host this morning
i do not see anyone with that name she's in the audience here okay
hi good morning could you get the mic closer to you if you would sure um could you state your
name and spell for the sonographer my name is lache green spell l -e -s -h -e -a last name green
g -r -e -e -n do you swear or affirm to tell the truth the whole truth nothing but the truth
yes sir um we do not have all your documents which documents are missing hillary and we did
not receive a copy of your deed and we did not receive any photos of the property other than a
photo of the poster okay so and photos of the property meaning the in the inside inside and
like a full outside photo to get a sense of what it looked like these the you were when you submitted
your exhibits you should have received an email back um indicating that these documents were
missing um that we have not received them okay i wasn't aware that it needed photos of the inside
i thought i just needed the um photos that were outside that were submitted before but okay yeah
because you're asking about a use inside the building so we need to see what the building
looks like that makes sense okay okay thank you am i able to resubmit them today right you're
Okay, thank you.
Am I able to resubmit them today?
You're going to resubmit them, but we're going to reschedule.
going to resubmit.
Reschedule.
Yeah, we'll reschedule.
Ian, do we have date?
All right, so you'll work with her on the date.
The case is going to be continued.
Call the office.
They'll give you the date of the new hearing, okay?
Okay, perfect.
All right, and thank you for coming down.
We appreciate it.
Thank you.
All right, and before you come the next time,
check with the office,
and we'll make sure you have everything you need.
Okay, thank you very much.
Thank you.
And number eight.
Number eight, MI 2025, 002 -651, 1222 -24, Walnut Street.
The case has been withdrawn.
Mr. Charcy, Mr. Kelly, on behalf of the city here,
I don't know if there was any remarks you wanted to make.
No? Okay. All right. Thank you.
Thank you.
We're going to go to number nine to start.
MI 2025 -004 -022 -3201 Ryan Avenue.
This is an appeal against L &I.
Mr. McDermott is the appellant.
Mr. McDermott, could you make sure your mic's on and try to get close to you if you would?
Could you please state your name and spell it for the stenographer?
Good morning.
My name is Peter McDermott, M -C -D -E -R -M -O -T -T.
Do you swear or affirm to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?
Representing the school district of Philadelphia, Mr. Sklaroff, could you please state your name and spell it for the stenographer?
Thank you, Mr. Chairman, members of the board, Ms. Emerson, and Mr. McDermott. My name is Neil Sklaroff, S -K -L -A -R -O -F -F. I'm an attorney with Dilworth Paxson here in the city, and I am representing the School District of Philadelphia.
With me today is Teresa Fleming, the Chief Operating Officer, and James Rokar, the Manager of the Design for the Capital Programs of the School District.
And also Leonard Reuter is here representing License and Inspections.
Mr. Reuter.
Thank you.
May it please the board, Leonard F. Reuter, R -E -U -T -E -R, Senior Attorney for the City of Philadelphia.
And I'm here with the city's witness, if necessary, Sarah Adamo, the Director of Legislation and Zoning with the Department of Licenses and Inspections Quality of Life Division.
All right. Do you swear or affirm that tell the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth?
And what we're going to have today, it will be the appellant's presentation, the city's presentation, and then the school district's presentation.
So, Mr. McDermott, why don't you start your presentation?
can i share my screen please you can
we'll get you in you won't be able to see it on the the big screen but the board can see it on
their computers so if you could just confirm once it's up mr chair just for you i'm sorry
go ahead oh just preliminarily uh we received this morning a batch of the documents uh from
appellant uh as a perspective exhibits just for the record just to preserve we want to rely on
it uh the city would would object to uh some of the documents particularly all the photos they're
just really not relevant to the issue which is whether or not a special exception was required
here um so i just wanted so why don't why don't we see it as we go through we'll decide what's
important what's not well make just a procedural uh issue i'll make some other procedural comments
later but uh some of these documents uh have a footer saying mayfair civic association um
mayfair civic is not a party here has not brought this uh appeal so just clear i don't know where
the documents came from we thought just to mcdermott i'm a member of the mayfair civic
association okay it's my neighborhood thank you mr skaroff but but they're not a party here pretend
it's not there. Right. Mr. McDermott, why don't you start? And we'll, as we go through this,
we'll figure this out. You're going to share? Yes. Okay. So, can we promote,
can you announce it? Can we please promote Mr. McDermott?
Thank you.
Can everybody see the screen?
I don't see it.
Should we also already be promoted?
Yes, if you could promote Leonard Reuter and Neil Skleroff as well.
Thank you.
Ian, should this be coming up here on the screen?
we don't have his uh documents or we can't see them he he has been promoted to a panelist
answer that.
Sorry.
first, right?
I don't think it's necessary.
I don't think it's necessary.
Mr. McDermott, as you go through this,
your concentration should be on license
and inspection, the actions of life's inspection.
Please proceed.
Okay, good morning, Chairman Bergman and members of the ZBA.
This is the package I've submitted for this appeal.
As you can see, this is the cover page identifying the meeting ID,
the appeal number, and the parties.
These are my list of exhibits.
They go A through P.
exhibit a this was a photograph from tuesday march 18th 2025 the reason why these photographs
are included are familiarized people on the board with this site it's a large campus
i won't spend a lot of time on them since they seem to be upsetting
city's not objecting to these types and sure it's the photos towards the end okay
then i'll talk about these photos so if you look at this photograph
Abraham Lincoln is centered in the middle of the photograph.
This is an oblique photogrammetric image from Tuesday, March 18th, as I stated.
This is one of the most recent images available.
Austin Meehan is still standing there with no demolition permits secured, which we were told was going to happen.
Abraham Lincoln, the new one, is in the middle of the photo.
And then you have a parking lot directly east of that.
Then you have a parking lot southeast of that.
And you have a parking lot west of that for the Northeast Propel Elementary School Academy, which recently was opened in 2021, I believe.
And then there's a stormwater retention basin further north on the site.
And there's a small parking lot for the former Austin Meehan School, which is now being dubbed as a swing space.
Zibbit B, Thursday, April 2nd, 2020.
So this photograph shows you that the new Abraham Lincoln High School, which was circa 2008, roughly, and those same parking lots.
But as you can see, there's a clearing on the site for the Northeast Propel Elementary School.
This was almost right after Lincoln High School was finished.
And this is what the site looked like with the same parking lots.
Austin being in middle school, still in use as a middle school.
This photograph is the former Abraham Lincoln High School,
which was really large and could take a lot of students.
And the parking lot off of Rowland Avenue, a parking lot off of Ryan Avenue,
and Austin being still there with a really small parking lot.
Exhibit E is a zoning permit, permit number ZP -2025 -002664, which was issued on April 7th, 2025.
Now, this zoning permit is for 3201 Ryan Avenue, Permit Holder School District.
You can read all that.
we're good um it was for the erection of this addition modular classrooms to an existing
educational facility
exhibit f is that
exhibit f is that zoning drawing that accompanied that permit
if you look i put a balloon a highlighted balloon area around the area of work
where these modular classrooms are going these trailers
and also they built an access hallway connected to the other school so these aren't independent
trailers these are connected to the school okay exhibit g full of a zoning code title 14 zoning
and planning specifically table 14 -602 -1 which is the uses that are allowed in residential districts
so if you look this site which previously was known as r3 prior to 2012 when the new zoning
code came in august 22nd now it's known as rsa1 and you follow that column down the page to where
educational facilities is listed as a subcategory under public civic and institutional use category
and the letter s is there for special exception
exhibit h philadelphia zoning code title 14 zoning and planning zoning permits process
including the appeal of the decisions of L &I.
So if we look at this flowchart on how zoning permits are obtained,
it's reviewed by L &I, there's a decision by L &I,
and then there's the option to appeal to the ZBA
under Section 14 -303, Subcategory 15.
Exhibit I, FIW Zoning Code Title 14, Zoning and Planning,
Subsection 14 -303, which is Common Procedures,
and requirements, specifically sub -7, special exception approval.
So if we look at how that's done, there's another flowchart, right?
Ultimately, there's a decision here by this zoning board
after notice to and meetings with RCOs, public notice, what have you.
Now, Exhibit J, Philadelphia Zoning Code, Title 14, Zoning and Planning, Table 14 -802 -1, which is a required parking in residential districts.
Remember, this is Zoned Residential, RSA 1.
so if we look at this table specifically the area that i have put a dotted bold line around
that red line under all other uses there's to be a parking space for every 1 000 square feet
of gross floor area mr chairman may i interrupt you just ask a question the appeal is uh with
regard to a special exception what is the relevance of parking to a special exception
um if i can proceed mr bergman i'll answer any questions answer then we'll go ahead i'm going
to continue right well what tells us about the parking that's coming up in my it's coming up
my exhibits come on so they took parking space with these modular trailers and where they were
placed in the parking lot which is adjacent to ryan avenue they took parking spaces they've added
gross floor area which would need increased parking spaces yet they took parking spaces away
from this site in addition to the fact and i know it was approved but in addition to the fact that
every time they've come through our neighborhood to to seek special exceptions and or uh variances
they were always under parking so now they have a situation that was dire and has been made worse
But that's in my exhibits.
I'll get to that.
Okay, Mr. Chairman?
Thank you.
We'll look at each one as they go.
Please proceed.
Exhibit K.
School District of Philadelphia, classroom renovations at Lincoln High School, drawing title, zoning plan.
Drawing number Z1 .01, sheet 1 of 2.
So if you look at this area, I have it labeled as Exhibit K -1.
the classroom trailers have a total additional gross floor area of 29 ,230 square feet.
I'm only taking that off of their drawing.
That's according to the property owner zoning drawing from April 4th, 2025,
specifically revision two, ironically titled parking stall count revision, or REV.
At a parking ratio of one to 1 ,000 square feet,
this proposed development would require an additional 30 spaces.
Now, I haven't taped it off and I haven't measured it, but I'm going by 29 ,230, but we all know that things change in the field.
Now, if you look at this exhibit, Exhibit K -2, classroom trailers have a total additional 29 ,230 square feet.
Now, if you look at this exhibit, Exhibit K2, Classroom.
Instead, this zoning table note number three states there will be a net decrease of 78 parking spaces.
Now, that's drawing math.
What really happened down the field, we have to check.
And if you look at that table at the top, parking stalls are posed, 476.
They were under the last time, which was approved, but they were under the last time.
They took more spaces away.
Exhibit L, Philadelphia Zoning Code, Title 14, Zoning and Planning,
specifically 14 -303, Comma Procedures and Requirements,
this time referencing number eight, Zoning Variances.
So if you look at this flowchart, decision by L &I, application refused, then there's an appeal by the applicant, a .k .a. School District of Philadelphia, and Dilworth Paxson's Mr. Sklaroff, I'm assuming.
You do public notice, you meet with your RCOs, you hash things out, you do what's best for all parties to the, you know, the best that can be done.
And then there's a decision by you guys, the zoning board adjustment.
room exhibit m photographs of the project site these are photographs that a member of our
community took on saturday july 19 2025. the city would then object to the photographs showing the
construction uh taking place of the modular classrooms again it's not relevant to the
specific question that was raised about whether a special exception should have been required
What's your response to that?
My response is typically schools, facilities, when they have these modular trailers, they're independent.
They stand on their own.
They're sitting on some type of center blocks or some type of foundation.
I wanted to let the board know and familiarize them with the fact that this is connected to the school, which cuts off a lot of access.
access for public safety, access for students and staff.
I'm sorry, this all require expert testimony for all of this.
Excuse me, I'm sorry, this is the court reporter.
I'm having great difficulty hearing Mr. Sklarov.
You did close your point.
I'm sorry, usually that's not an objection, not being able to hear me.
I'm going to make just an observation by way of an objection.
These issues that Mr. McDermott is testifying about are in the realm of an expert.
We don't have expert testimony here, but let me also point out the school district readily admits that it got a permit for and is building an assemblage of modular classrooms for the benefit of the students and the community and the city.
So we're not in any way disputing that classrooms are being built and students will occupy those and educational use will commence very shortly.
So, Mr. McDermott, I agree with him. We don't need to see the photos. We all agree that something's gone there, right? And we don't have to see it. The question really is L &I's actions, okay?
Okay. I only included then, Chairman Bergman, to familiarize the board.
Sure. Thank you.
the remainder of the exhibits are photographs okay yeah i i okay yeah we're good i think we
understand what's going on and you know um what else is part of your presentation that's it
you know the neighborhood just
as the as the process is codified right under title 14 right when things don't follow the
tables the chart this is black and white this is not an opinion this is black and white these
are charts these are tables and when processes aren't followed people get neglected people are
left out of the process and the community has had a long relationship not only with the school
district but particularly this campus in 2006 someone else that's going to testify here in 2006
a brand new school was built and was built specifically at a smaller size than that
existing that existing abraham lincoln that was first on the site it was made smaller more compact
more focused on keeping the population down for numerous reasons right anytime you have a large
crowd of people you're going to have an opportunity for more problems right class size smaller
population smaller so 2006 2007 that was all hashed out by uh then council councilwoman
joan kerjewski and the community numerous meetings numerous meetings
Joan Krzyzewski, and the community, numerous meetings, numerous meetings, but they tried to find a middle ground.
There was agreements, and some of them agreements were abandoned and were not kept.
Fast forward to 2018 or 19, another process started.
Another process started for the need for an elementary school in the area.
So Mayfair is busting at the seams, trailers.
Ethan Allen, busting at the seams, additions.
Forrest got a little schoolhouse.
There's a brand -new Thomas Home being built right now.
Pollock is getting kind of renovations.
Please, ma 'am.
I understand all that, but I think we've got to go back.
It's all about L &I.
It's not what's happening other places, okay?
I was only saying that for the process.
And then we had another process.
Attorney Matt McClure, on behalf of Ballard Spar, he came in front of us.
We hashed out in a community benefits agreement.
the community was included okay neighbors started calling off the hook about trailers being delivered
the street being shut down it was problematic and there's mud everywhere everywhere thank you
mr reuter do you have any cross just very briefly um mr mcdermott uh you've you've stated uh several
times you've made reference to the community uh you said that you're a member of the mayfair
community association um do you hold a position as an officer of the mayfair community association
yes i do okay and did the mayfair community association take a vote to authorize you
you to take this appeal say on their behalf we took a the board discussed it and there's people
here that i understand but so are you saying this is an appeal of the mayfair civic association or
is this your appeal i filled out the paperwork and the may for civic association are behind this
appeal okay that's fine now you also briefly made mess you've shown in your initial photographs
and you've also referenced several times the existing school the previous school the existing
school uh whether it's right whether it's um lincoln high school or the propel school or the
me in school so you there's no dispute that there is an existing school located at 3201 ryan is
that correct correct okay i have no further questions sclera you'll you'll get a warning
mr mcdermott i have just a few questions that's fine uh mr mcdermott uh you filed the original
appeal on a and sent it to uh the board of license and inspection review have you since
we last met filed an appeal on the application for appeal papers issued by the zoning board
81 -49 yes did you send us a copy of that yes when did you do that by u .s mail when i did it
I talked to the board. The board told me to have it in by a certain time.
I sent it in. I included a check, and I sent copies to the school district, and I sent copies to Dilworth -Paxson.
The board will look at the record for that.
You looked through the L &I archives, is that correct, in formulating your exhibits originally and today?
did you look through the archives on the internet under the zoning board website
with lni's website to look at the historic plans and approvals that are of record at the city lni has
a tab license inspection tab under the atlas .phila .gov i don't know what he's talking
about the zoning there's a tab okay zoning doesn't have the zoning tab doesn't have any of these
permits any of these files on there there is a license and inspection tab which has a history
of all the zoning permits building permits electrical permits mechanical permits plumbing
permits you uh attached to your original materials and exhibits a notice of referral and refusal
uh dated uh july 24th 2019 do you recall that document yes i do um and did you read that
document yes i did did you uh notice that in one of the paragraphs that are toward the end
it says um application and it mentions an application 060126 that's the calendar number
The zoning board of adjustment granted the erection granted the erection of a new of two new structures, etc, etc. And at one point it then says with a maximum of
etc etc and at one point it then says with a maximum of 423 parking spaces including 12
accessible parking spaces did you read that yeah and is that part of the zoning board's
uh opinion and judgment in that matter this this facility excuse me just yes or no
So I'd have to look at the document, Mr. Scholar.
Okay, I'd have to look at it.
This right here is a refusal and a referral from previous.
does it refer to the record of the zoning board at 2006 when uh they put a maximum on the parking
of 423 parking spaces is that what it says with a maximum of 423 partners including 12 accessible
parking spaces are there more than 423 parking spaces i don't know we'd have to count i don't
haven't counted off but as long as they don't exceed that there's nothing wrong with the zoning
boards um with l and i's approval is that correct i don't i don't work for l and i okay all right um
i'd also we'll get to argument on okay 2006. do you have any other witnesses hold on a second
Can I ask another question? Your appeal is based on your position that the school district needed to get a special exception because the modular classrooms are in educational use. Is that correct?
so if that's not true there's nothing more for us to discuss so i'd like to have us focus
on whether we needed a special exception hold on hold on a minute legal question
this this project has a referral under the special exception for the structures
no in this it should oh it doesn't i know that's what we're talking about
And they should have a refusal because they took away more parking spaces and added more gross floor area.
Let me go back.
Do you have any witnesses you want to present?
You know what?
I had other exhibits at the end that were after these photographs that they don't want to see.
They don't want to show you the abomination.
I don't know if that's the case, but...
that's fine
yeah i have a marty benaric is here marty benaric is a former schooler he'll tell you
yeah is he here yes mr bernard
Good morning, Mr. Pernarik.
Good morning, Mr. Chairman.
Could you please state, a little closer to the mic, if you would, bulk towards you.
That's it.
Could you please state your name and spell for this phonography?
Yes, Martin Bednarik, B -E -D -N -A -R -E -K.
Do you swear or affirm to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?
So, Mr. Paneric, your testimony should be about L &I and the issues relative to that, okay?
So, please proceed.
Yeah, I just want to clarify this parking.
This is a campus that has other schools on it, namely Propel Academy has Lincoln on it, Austin Man, and the Lincoln parking lots.
And what's happening here, that 400 and some number that's being referenced is,
we, the community, don't understand what is included in those number of parking spaces.
Where are they from?
Because where these trailers are placed right now is they took off 78 spots, 78 parking places.
And there's no regards to putting these in anywhere else on the campus.
As far as using spots from the part of the campus that has Propel Academy on it, those parking spots are not even close to...
Those parking spots are not even close to where somebody could park and then walk.
It's a pretty good walk.
So I don't know what's included in that number, and I think Al and I should know, too.
Okay, so that's why I'm here, is about the parking.
Mr. Woodard, are there any questions?
No questions.
No questions.
Thank you very much, Perf.
We appreciate you coming in.
Thank you.
i'd like to call donnie smith from the mayfair neighborhood
morning mr smith
i try to sit as close to the mic as you can please state your name and spell for the stenographer
donnie smith uh smith do you swear or affirm to tell the truth the whole truth nothing but the
truth yes mr. Smith again if you would your testimony should be talking about
Illinois okay I'll do my best yeah please proceed well to be honest with
you I wasn't prepared to speak today you know I'm here I actually told you I'm
here as a as a past president of the Mayfair Civic Association with an
extensive history of the entire school district of Philadelphia's projects from
the demolition of the original building to its current status right now I'm
I'm sorry. So I'm not quite sure what I can speak to with relevance to the L &I testimony, other than the fact that I do understand Mr. McDermott's presentation with regards to the formal process and how it's supposed to go through an RCO hearing prior to coming before you guys.
So that's pretty much where I am right now.
If you have any questions, what do you have?
You have to cross, sir.
No crossings.
No questions.
Thank you very much for coming in.
We appreciate it.
Thank you.
All right.
Mr. McDermott, is that your case?
Mr. Chairman, there's people on the Zoom call as well.
I don't know if any of them want to speak and raise their hand.
I don't know who got connected or not.
We don't do that in the...
Yeah, Mr. McDermott, we don't take public testimony in appeals against L &I.
If there's people you'd like to call as witnesses, you can do that,
but we don't take public testimony.
No problem.
All right, thank you very much.
So, city's presentation for Mr. Reuter, please.
Very briefly then, I'd like to call Sarah Adamo.
You can have my chair.
Thank you.
uh sorry see if you get that mic closed if you could
you can pull towards you good morning could you please state your name and spell for the
stenographer good morning my name is sarah adamo uh last name is a -d -a -m -o right do you swear or
affirm to tell the truth the whole truth nothing but the truth please proceed uh thank you ms
Adamo. Where are you currently employed? Department of Licenses and Inspections
Quality of Life Unit. And what do you do there? I am the Director of Legislation
and Zoning. And what does that role consist of? I provide direction to plans
examiners, supervisors on high -level zoning related issues. I'm also a member
of the Zoning Technical Committee.
And how long have you been with L &I?
Thirteen years.
And how much of that time have you been involved in zoning matters?
The entire time.
And during the course of your current position with the department
as Director of Legislation and Zoning,
did you come to be familiar with the recent permit
that was issued for 3201 Ryan Avenue?
If I may share my screen.
I'll see that.
We can.
Somebody can.
I'm going to draw your attention.
These are all, let me just indicate, these are all, these are all exhibits.
that were previously submitted uh either by the appellant or by the school district so there's
nothing these are not separate exhibits we're just trying to kind of streamline the amount of
documents that the board has because everybody's other than mr mcdermott can you see it okay yes
Now, can you see what's showing on the screen right here?
We can.
And what is this?
This is Zoning Permit ZP 2025 -002664, issued for 3201 Ryan Avenue.
okay and what does this permit allow um this is a permit for the erection of an addition
to an existing uh structure that was used for educational facilities and it also documents
uh the removal of some parking spaces okay and in this uh this particular uh application
at this location it references the current zoning district as rsa1 and what is rsa1
um rsa1 is what was formerly known as r3 i believe it stands for residential single family attached
okay and you had heard were you sitting in the room when mr mcdermott was presenting his case
Yes, I was.
Okay, and you noticed his reference to the tables for residential uses and what was permitted?
And do you agree with Mr. McDermott that typically in RSA 1, educational facility would require a special exception?
Yes, I do.
Okay. Why wasn't it required in this instance?
In this instance, this isn't a new educational facility.
This is an existing campus that has already been approved for this use.
And so the property known as 3211 Ryan Avenue had an existing educational use going back several years.
Is that right?
Yes, that's correct.
And in terms of how Ellen and I views this, this was not – this permit wasn't seeking – this was specifically seeking an expansion of the educational use.
Is that right?
Yes, this was an addition, but the use was remaining the same.
Okay. And in terms of the existing structure on the property, that is the school building or the school buildings and ancillary buildings that were referenced previously, this was not expanding any previous variance or anything that was needed for those facilities like height or anything like that?
That's correct.
Okay. So, in terms of the use, does L &I view the educational facility use of the property to essentially extend to the entire boundary of the property?
Yes. Based on the way that this type of use functions, the entire campus, the entire property is used as an educational facility.
You see parking, fields, all those ancillary uses are all considered to be part of the educational facility.
Right. So, for instance, like the athletic fields, the modular classrooms, you know, everything that's used by the school for school -related activities is part of the educational use. Is that right?
That's correct.
Okay. So even though the code explicitly authorizes expansion of nonconforming uses, this doesn't even really qualify as an expansion of a nonconforming use.
It's just literally saying we're going to do this use inside these modular classrooms, right?
That's correct.
Okay. So there's no doubt in your mind that this permit application to create the modular classrooms did not require a special exception.
Correct.
And you saw previously there had been some reference made to a permit application regarding
parking.
I don't know if Mr. Sklaroff wants to go into this, but I believe—I'll pull it up.
I believe this is it.
uh i'm showing on the screen uh what appears to be a zoning use permit uh do you recognize that
yes i do
and when this was granted when
um this uh refuse on referral was issued on uh 7 24 2020 uh 2019
Let's see if I can enlarge this.
So again, the permit application and the permit that was issued in 2019, again, indicate that
at least by 2019, this property had been recognized as an educational facility.
Correct.
uh with again a certain number of parking spaces but again even
at that so since at least 2019 i'm going back at least i think reference prior to 2006 prior to the
current zoning code this has been used as a school property is that right yeah okay i don't know if
mr spark you want to go why don't you try to get closer please yeah why don't you take it
why don't it's about there oh wow
when was the zoning code last pre -written
uh 2012 i believe it was right when i got hired correct and before that uh was there a zoning code
uh for an r3 zoning district yes and did the residential district uh allow some non -residential
uses. So I want to show you a document which has a header of 14 -203 residential related
uses, non -residential uses, and other permitted uses. The board will have to trust me that
I have taken out a lot of the language and just put the important language in. Were you
Were you at one point familiar with that section of the code?
I have read this section of the code.
I was not actually employed by Illinois when this code was being used,
so I haven't issued permits under this code.
But I have read it.
I have been familiar with parts.
There's a sub -taragraph brief.
And I haven't, we thought we could not submit exhibits shorter than three days.
I have paper copies of this, but I will represent the board.
This is an extraction from the pre -2012 zoning code.
Would you read subcaragraph point three?
So these are residential uses.
These are non -residential.
I'm sorry, non -residential uses that shall be permitted.
And subsection three is schools, colleges, universities,
and other institutions of learning, adjunct dormitories, and adjunct play and recreational grounds.
Is there any doubt that an entire property that was given permission to operate as an educational institution
included every piece of dirt within the property level?
That's correct. The entire campus was...
Let me ask you a question. Do you have a copy of that for Mr. McDermott?
I'm sorry. Yes, sir. And I have thoughts.
thank you can i ask some questions
uh i just wanted to say uh right now so i'm sharing my screen i'm going to unshare that's
the word uh stop sharing but i will put up just for the board's reference and mr mcdermott's
you can actually access the uh prior zoning code through the same link for the philadelphia code
so i'll just pull that up to show you it's not any really just a demonstrators exhibit you can
take judicial notice of what the zoning code used to be so i'll pull that up in the meantime well
thank you very much
go ahead good morning i heard them referencing a prior zoning code
is it true that a new zoning code was approved in 2012
yes yes okay august 22nd 2012 right sounds right okay so in that new zoning code
came all these tables right yeah okay so the old zoning code
any any of this documentation this wasn't carried forward correct
is this is in the new zoning code which was approved on august 22nd 2012 as a result
of mayor nutter creating a zoning commission to create a zoning code to update it so that you
wouldn't have old is this included in the new zoning code that exact language is not in the
that exact language is not in the new zoning code correct and would you think that
new zoning code correct and
i would feel that the reason why is to interact with the community and let the community have a
say in what's going on that's my opinion okay that's that's okay and following up
hold on are you done mr mcdarmid so they've referenced there's you have a permit in front
to you in 2019 correct yes okay in that permit in the top left corner there's a refusal and a
referral they're both checked correct yeah okay so according to the code at that time in 2019
which is after 2012 excuse me mr skaroff well he's not saying he's just saying it's coming over
Well, if you don't, go ahead.
Please proceed.
Relax.
So in 2012, and now we're in 2019, when they sought to put educational facilities at the exact same address, 3201 Ryan Avenue, it was refused and referred, correct?
Got to get on the mic.
All right. Mr. McDermott, are you done? Objection.
Objection mischaracterized the records of the Department of License and Inspection.
That's okay. The board needs to know.
On that, on that document, there are two boxes in the top left corner, correct?
They're both checked, referral and refusal in 2019, correct?
They are.
Okay, so at that time, somebody in O &I looked at the proposal and saw the tables and figured that it needed a special exception, a .k .a. based on a referral, and it needed a variance based on the refusal.
And those two boxes on that document are checked, correct?
They are checked.
I don't agree with that conclusion that the plans examiner reached on this application.
does she get the well why don't you ask her why why would you so this is the same department that
you work for it's the same department that you work for who at that time issued a refusal and
a referral having the applicant go and seek a variance and a special exception not either or
both and it states further down on that document does it not state the reasons why there is a
referral required and a refusal correct is is one of those reasons on that document parking
for the refusal yes okay is one of those reasons on that document for an educational facility
that is what the document says correct i this this this parcel is still not letting her answer
sorry i'm sorry go ahead i don't agree with the conclusion that was reached by the plans examiner
on this application. What action will be taken on that?
How is the public supposed to know what L and I is going to do depending on what they
had for breakfast? Why don't you describe why you don't.
I don't agree with the examiner requiring a special exception for the use on this application
for the same reason why I don't agree
that a special exception is required
on the current application that's under appeal
because the property was already approved
as a whole for the educational use.
Under a variance and a special exception.
That's not what she said.
I understand.
She's answered your question.
She disagrees with it.
I have just two more questions.
Mr. Adamo, if I got a permit prior to 2012 for a use that became unlawful afterwards,
do I still have a right to operate that use?
Yes, you do.
So that's a matter of constitutional law.
Is that correct?
I'm not an attorney, so I would defer to our law department to answer that.
Very well.
um so if if i came to so the right of the school district to operate an educational use of the
premises predated 2019 and at least went back to 2006 and probably much earlier if we could find
files that went back so the the permit for the use
So, the permit for the use encompasses the entire property.
Is that correct?
That is correct.
I have no further questions for Ms. Madonna.
I just want to say for the record, I'm sharing my screen.
I'm showing the pre -2012 zoning code, Section 14203.
So, it's the same document that Ms. McDermott has that Mr. Squire referred to.
So, just so it's in the record, I think, again, you can take judicial notice of this being
the zoning code prior to 2012 so i'm just going to stop sharing now if everybody had an opportunity
to take a peek at that okay i i don't have any further questions um for ms adamo if the board
does we're we're okay at this point neil do you have a anything else you want to present um yes
but it's it's if i may do you want to present by your witnesses okay just closing
it's always good to do your homework
uh the building
if i if i as a zoning attorney
get a refusal that requires some variances and also has a referral that purports to
require a special exception. I'm not going to fight with the examiner and waste another 30 days
to get that removed from the special exception because my real heavy lift is on the variances.
And when I come before you and ask for some variances, if you give me the variances,
you're certainly going to give me the special exception because the burden is so much lighter.
So were I the attorney on that 2019 application, I wouldn't have thought that, but it wasn't required because the whole property was already being used and entitled as a special exception and as an educational use.
The thing we're here is whether we needed to get a special exception has nothing to do with process, has nothing to do with parking.
It would take a long time to explain to you why a 2019 application was a little different.
But if I showed you the history, you would see that that property had been subdivided.
They subdivided the entire Ryan 3201 Ryan Avenue into four different lots.
The one for the Propel Elementary School, I think it was an elementary school, looks like a lollipop. And you have three other lots besides that. And so when they looked at that particular lot, they thought that was a new lot that didn't have anything to do with the high school.
I think they were wrong. It's not a strategy I would have taken. But having followed that, had nothing to do with a high school site. So the question is, do we need a special exception? It's nothing to do with 2019.
What it has to do with is, was there an approval for an educational use at the property under consideration here?
And the answer is yes.
It was granted under the old code.
Under the new code, they would have the same because they look as a more expansive view of use and would say it applied to the whole property.
so the only question before you is whether we need a special exception or whether the property
already had a special exception that's really a legal question has nothing to do with these
other issues that have come up the construction on the site is an l and i issue not for not a
zoning issue it's a construction issue i'm glad to answer any questions from the board if you want
to see some of the history from the 2019 I have the site plan that was used for
that and you would see our lot here is not included but you do know that this
board set a maximum number of spaces so as long as we don't exceed that it's no
issue and that we already have the right and it's our responsibility to the city
and to the students to give them the best possible academic environment
and the addition of modular classrooms to even out the pupil.
The pupil, how many pupils will be in a classroom is important.
How many pupils?
I would be glad to answer any questions.
I don't have any questions.
I have to close your remarks.
Is that all right?
Are you done?
I think so.
Are you done?
Yeah, I'm assuming this is closing right now.
Yeah, no, the city's position is really pretty simple.
This is a straightforward expansion of a nonconforming use, and, you know, again, under the current zoning code and the prior zoning code, the educational facility, a school, what have you, encompasses all the uses that one would associate for a school.
So again, you can think of this like, you know, you maybe have children, maybe have gone to see a play at their high school. The fact that the high school has plays doesn't make it a nightclub. It is all part of the educational thing. So that's why schools are defined rather broadly, and they include all of these other things.
And this is generally true of the post -2012 zoning code.
The uses extend to the entire property.
The use of 3201 is an educational facility, so they can do education anywhere on that property.
And because there was no expansion of – so the previous 2019 application, they needed to get additional height.
So that required a variance at the time.
I don't remember if that was 2019 or 2008, whatever it was.
So if they were expanding something like that, that would need either administrative adjustment,
if they were lowering it, or if they were adding floors, they would need to come back in for something else.
But this school, this property has been used as an educational site for decades.
And so it's clearly just, it's at most the expansion of a non -conforming educational facility.
But as Ms. Adamo explained, it's not even, we don't even really need to go there.
They're just building another building on a property that would allow it and allow them to do education in that building.
Thank you very much.
Mr. Barberman.
Thank you.
He just used the word building another building.
So in the late 2000s, prior to the new zoning code, a new Lincoln High School was built.
That needed variance.
that needed special exception, 2008 -2009.
New zoning code comes into effect, August 22nd, 2012.
2019, new structure, right?
Building another building, that's how it's referred to,
is on the site, refusal and referral,
variance and special exception needed.
Mr. Sklaroff talked about
providing modular classrooms
for the students
I wouldn't want to be in that classroom
please don't refer to that as a service
sticking kids in trailers
I don't think the issue
he referred to it
he opened it
But he opened it.
It's not a service to this to the city and the students and the school district putting kids in a trailer.
Putting kids in a trailer that has.
We're going back. We're talking about Illinois. Remember?
We were. But let's let's I'm referring to what Mr.
Sklar referred to. I thought he taught about serving students.
So we're going to leave it at that. And you're saying that's a disservice.
Well, then I said fine. It's a disservice to students.
Right. 2000, late 2000s, new structures require special exception and variance.
This document, as I look at it, that Mr. Sklarov gave us under subsection 14203 in the old code.
But let's talk about it. Non -residential uses where the chart provides for non -residential uses.
The following uses shall be permitted. Underneath that, the letter B says the following non -residential uses shall be permitted.
only if a board of adjustment certificate is obtained then under that it talks about schools
and colleges and universities and other institutions of learning and adjunct dormitories
and adjacent and adjunct play and recreational grounds we're not asking for anything different
we're asking for the referral and the refusal to come through the zoning board to give the community
which includes the students, which includes some of the staff, which includes everybody in our
community. Give them a chance to have some input into this, not just $11 million worth of trailers
Not just $11 million worth of trailers showing up and ta -da, here we go, mobilized classrooms.
showing up and ta -da.
That's not fair.
That's not a service.
That's not a service.
Thank you very much.
Any questions from the board?
I have one.
This 2019 permit or permit application, which talked order refusal and referral, when you went through the zoning process, was the variance and the special exception granted?
I was clear. I was not involved in that application.
I was at Dilworth. I was not at Ballard at the time, as far as I recall.
But even if I were, I wouldn't be able to answer the question.
But I told you in an earlier argument what my approach would be.
I have to assume since the building went up, but if I showed you the application
and I can show you the site plan, you would see it is a different parcel than the one we're discussing.
I'd be glad you presented, but it's not necessary to go through all that
because the special exception approval had been granted decades ago,
and it applied and continues to apply.
And unless we abandon the use, the use continues lawfully
because under the code at the time, which is really in essence the same.
Objection.
objection is that in 2009 he's talking about existing stop stop what please proceed
um so i guess my only comment is um that as far as i know both variances and special exceptions
run with the land. So the fact that there was a new code that was introduced or whatever else
happened, if it predated any of that, then it still applies now. So whatever was granted in
terms of the variances that were previously granted from 2006, or you said something about
2008 or whatever before 2012 and any special exceptions that were granted prior to that
they would still run with the land they don't they don't terminate because there's a new code
or there's a change in the zoning designation of the property um afterwards so um if absolutely
that's my and if there was another special exception granted it would just be redundant
Well, I don't want to go there, but special exceptions are uses that are permitted as long as the zoning board approves.
So even if it was mistakenly required, say, by LNI, it just means that it jumped from the application process referred to the zoning board.
And then the Zoning Board would say there's a lesser standard, and there are burdens that anyone who is challenging a special exception has that are pretty stiff.
So I'm still on the whole idea that if you have the variance for the use and the special exception for the use on that property, then it runs with the land and would not be affected by a change in the zoning code.
Any other questions from the board?
We're going to move for a vote.
MI -2025 -004 -022 -321 -3201, Ryan Avenue.
Appeal is denied.
Everybody's got to vote, right?
Michael?
Michael John's appeal is denied.
Cheryl Gaston, my vote is that the appeal would be denied.
Hold on this one, too.
I'm sorry.
Tethergram, my vote is that the appeal is denied.
ryan mcadams my voters appeal denied thank you everyone
and i'll thank the board for accommodating myself and call this first
we're going to go to number four
you see here mi 2025 00004 28 48 chatham street this is a resumptive hearing
This is a resumptive hearing.
Here, I have a hand up by the name of Lisa Greco.
Why don't we see if he's using that line?
they have been promoted to panelists and now i see mr gallagher could you please promote him instead
Thank you.
hi um benjamin
benjamin
hello hi sir how are you i'm fine how are you good could you please turn your
video one we're trying to right now because we're going to need your video for you to present
there you go there you go all right so benjamin could you please state your name and spell for
stenographer my name is benjamin gallagher g -a -l -l -i -g -a -r right do you swear or affirm to
tell the truth the whole truth nothing but the truth yes i do so this is a resumptive hearing
and um we're going to get an update from you yes there'll be questions from the board
there'll be conversation with the public and then the planning commission will make a recommendation
okay i will note that initially the um the rco was opposed and now i see that the rco has non -opposition
and they also are looking at some provisos to add to this am i correct yes okay so why don't
you do this why don't you update us on what's happened since the last hearing right and then
we'll go from there okay okay well at the last hearing do you have any documents you're going
show us now uh yes documents why don't you put the documents up okay
okay so this is what it looks like now okay
you have to one at a time
I don't know
sorry we're having
okay so they can see our screen now so they can see everything we see yeah as soon as it comes
off so this is this is how it is now this is the way that the area that we're going for it looks
now no we're we don't see anything sir you don't sir i think you're just you're sharing um just
your screen and what your screen has pulled up right now is the zoom okay oh so you need to
switch to um you need to select share screen and then select the documents that you wish to show
us or if you want to show us your screen have those documents already pulled up so that when
you share your screen we can see the documents all right so that's can you see that or
yes okay this is how the area looks now
yes okay this is how the area looks now
this is for entertainment space am i correct yes it's uh going to be a well we're hoping to make
get a theater. Okay. We're trying to pull up the new ones. Do you have also plans to
show us? No, because we're trying to get it approved first before we spend money on the
plans. The last time we were here, the board had just asked us if we had any pictures of
what it would look like when it was done right and these are what what it would look like complete
sir i believe you had submitted some renderings to show what the space would look like once it
was renovated if it were if it was approved yes this is this is what it will look like when it's
renovated there were some other renderings though i believe that you had could you show those to the
board oh the before pictures you couldn't see them no no the there was some some drawings that
were done to show what the space would look like once it was all you know decorated and ready for
people to come in okay let me can you see this yes okay this is what it would
look like complete and could you talk about entrances and exits for us yes
there's if we can't see it back there all the way back where the stage is on
the right hand side would be an emergency exit door can you pull up any
of where the bathrooms would be that's a different part and then to the to the last row of seats
there would be an entrance door all from cedar street side
how many seats do you have there how many seats are in there yeah i'm this is just a drawing but
probably 50 50 or 60 seats right okay anything else you want to tell us about your update did
you go back to this to the rco can you go back to it did the rc the rco changed their vote
they're now in favor of it okay tell us tell us what happened there i honestly don't know when
when we went to the meeting with the neighborhood it was voted against right we came in front of the
board a few months ago and we went over everything explained everything it sound good and then the
board just said they would like pictures of what the inside would look like completed
so all we did was we went on the computer and computerized those
images of what it would look like to present to you guys
And did you see the provisos they've requested of you?
Three -year temporary variance, hours of operation.
Three years temporary?
Temporary variance for three years, they said.
Hours of operation Sunday to Thursday.
Events end by 8 p .m.
Friday and Saturday events end at 11 p .m.
Okay. I mean, that would be good.
i don't have anything against doing that okay questions from the board
excuse me i quite we have a board's going to ask you some questions oh okay
i'll also say so do you have exterior photos of those um uh exits and entryways that you talked
about on the uh rendering not at this time i thought that was something that the board was
asking for like the actual photos of the exits and entry to the building we don't we don't have the
uh pictures of entrances and exits because there's only one exit in there as of now until zoning
approves us then we have to get a building permit to put another entrance in okay so do you have an
actual picture of where that that one exit is so that we can and maybe you can give us direction
that one exit is so that we can and maybe you can give us directional
guidance as to where you want to put the other egress i thought i saw outside there was a two
doors what was that oh no that was a that was the other side of the building we have a bunch of
pictures now if you if you look on this picture down at the two bathrooms there's a wall
there's a door to the left that actually an exterior picture of the door that's what i'm
saying do you have an exterior picture of the door to build an outside just take a picture
of where someone would yeah i have it from cedar street right yeah
that's that's far the corner that's fine is that it yeah yes
and then the other door you said you're going to have to cut into the wall
yes we'd have to cut a door in
and that's the right of the stage am I correct yes
any other questions and that and that that door Lee will lead to uh what uh cedar street
The pavement on Cedar Street. Both doors, the existing door, leads to Cedar Street, and the door that we will install will lead to Cedar Street.
The one that's there would basically become an emergency exit, and the new one we install would be a double door for the main entrance.
What are your proposed hours of operation? How many days a week do you plan to operate?
I mean, I would like to make it seven days a week, but depending on the venue.
Here's the proviso.
Sunday to Thursday, events end by 8 p .m.
Friday and Saturday, events end at 11 p .m.
Thank you.
Other questions?
I guess my question is, so people are just going to come in,
they're going to see the show and then they're going to leave is that it you're not serving food
you're not having um beverages you're not this is just a venue for people to come and see
whatever entertainment you're offering is that what's going to go on here and is that what you
told the community i'm i'm sorry but i could barely hear anything you're saying i said is this just a
venue where people come in they're going to see whatever entertainment that you're offering and
they're going to leave you're not offering food you're not offering beverages you are just this
entertainment yes okay your rendering shows a concession consists concession would be for like
not non -alcoholic drinks so it is drinks nothing alcoholic though we're not applying for a liquor
license my my my question didn't mention liquor my i asked you who are you going to be offering
um food and beverages okay as part of this oh yes just snacks okay all right and uh
how many how many people is this that you say you're gonna have in here you you you really don't
no is that is that what you're saying no i i would have to get a law for occupancy which
i can't obtain either until this is either approved or i don't know what the law for
occupancy would be for their they go by a square footage right what's the square footage of your
space it's roughly 5 000 square feet 5 000 square feet and depending on the size of your stage i
if you got fixed seats or non -fixed seats you're over 300 people that can technically be allowed
in this space it's just just a quick rule of thumb right so i don't have no i no plans on
having 300 people to me at 300 people being in there seeing how it's going to be set up
would really be way too many people have you have you run anything like this before
What's your background? What's your experience with running an establishment like this?
Well, I manage four buildings for the same person that owns this building.
So in our buildings, we have event halls. We have a gym. We had a boxing gym.
And the other one, we have a, if you ever heard of stateside, Vaca, they're in one of our buildings.
and the other one we have
if you ever heard a state
So your experience is in managing properties where there are events and things.
Is that, okay.
and so does that include the scheduling the you know the advertising the all of that that goes
along with this yes sometimes sometimes it involves that okay all right and then of course
my question is always about um fire and safety so what are your plans for um the hardwired
smoke detection well the building this building's already hardwired in we're monitored by
who is that alert one we're monitored by alert one we have a sprinkler system in the the entire
building and it is zoned okay and you have that but at as of this point you don't have the two
means of ingress and egress right now we only have one if it's approved we'll install the other one
And then Alert 1 is on board to come put pull stations in any new doorways or any entrances or exits.
Any emergency lighting?
They have to add all that.
Right now, this is basically a warehouse.
So you don't have to have as much if we change the zoning to what we want.
Obviously, we're going to have to add some fire things, pull stations.
but the sprinkler system is already in the building the only thing we would have to add
that i was told is when we turn in our plans to redo the area we'd have to be up the code with
pull stations strobe lights things like that but again we are already monitored the entire building
by alert one who monitors the system for the whole building if there's a low pressure if
anything goes off if there's a fire alarm they alert me and i come right down all right thank
you thank you questions from the board questions or comments from our attorney hillary emerson
not at this time mr chair questions or comments from their virtual audience
i see no gains at this time chairman planning commission good morning chairman david effecto
f -e -c -t -e -a -u with the city planning commission do you swear or affirm to tell the truth the
whole truth and nothing but the truth yes sir i do please proceed thank you sir thank you sir
chairman and board members the comprehensive plan recommends a change in zoning at this location
from i2 general industry to icmx industrial and commercial mixed use assembly and entertainment
would be allowed in the proposed icmx zoning the city planning commission recommends the board
grant a proposed use variance for assembly and entertainment thank you mi 2025 0004 2848 chatham
street i vote yes with the following proviso three -year temporary variance that would expire
8 20 28 hours of operation sunday to thursday events end by 8 pm friday to saturday events end
at 3 11 pm also use limited to area 3 and a certificate of occupancy to be obtained
michael johns my vote is yes with provisos cheryl gaston my vote is no
tennetta graham my vote is yes with provisos
brian mcadams my vote is yes with provisos thank you sir
we're going to go to number one mi 2204 002 293 6201 north 15th street
jermaine harris is the attorney this is a resumptive hearing
Jermaine Harris will be rejoining
as a panelist.
mr harris yes good morning good morning sir yes good morning here you go please stay
yes good morning good morning sir yes good morning there you go please state your name and spell
for this yeah sure jermaine harris and i am uh counsel for appellant russian basely uh my name
is spelled j -e -r -m -a -i -n -e h -a -r -r -i -s do you swear or firm to tell the truth the whole truth
nothing but the truth i do so mr harris we're going to this is a resumptive hearing and it is
there'll be a presentation by you of updated information yes questions from the board
will be public testimony or updated information only and and planning commission will make a
recommendation my my remembrance of this case is that uh the rco was not in favor and no the rco
was in favor it was in favor yes how about the council person the council person uh was not in
favor okay the rco was in favor okay um please proceed with your update sure let me share my
screen can i can i go back james harvey committee person in the 17th ward testified in opposition
is that correct? I don't know what his I don't know what his position I don't know what his
position was but we had a community meeting uh all right we had a community meeting with who
who was this hold on so why don't you start your why don't you give us the whole update of where
you stand with this? Yeah, sure. Yeah, we had a community meeting with Oak Lane Worcester and
Community Coalition, and that was on January 28th, and there was support for this project.
And if you may recall, this is requesting for a variance for the use of property at 6201
north uh 15th street uh for a daycare it's on the first floor uh also concurrent with the approval
my client got a petition signatures of 50 uh of 50 signatures of nearby neighbors which was also
uh submitted and is also attached here but let's go back to the project itself so
my client is the tenant of the owner and she wishes to use this property uh for daycare this
is a posting of the today's resumptive hearing this is the least evidencing that
and this is the photo of what the front would be this has the gate of it but this is the front of
the building there's another vantage picture of the front this is another picture of the front
a different angle. This is the side of the building. This is the side of the building.
Another picture of the front. This is the driveway which would be used for people when
they would be dropping off uh for dropping off the children this is a backyard and then this is
the interior now the interior it's actually two separate playrooms so to speak we're talking
about 2 000 square feet and so we have
one open area right here which is open area one we'll call it open area one that's where you walk
in through the main door the main double doors that we uh just saw pictures of from the street
so you walk in and this is the area right here and that's where the larger uh that's where the
larger children would be at and then we have exiting from there we have a smaller room
which is uh right here which is behind that the larger room is 879 square feet
The larger room is 879 square feet.
The smaller room, which is for the smaller children, is 608 square feet.
Now, this building, it does have, although it has a capacity of 49 people, my client doesn't plan on having that many people there.
I believe, and she can testify to this, but I believe that she was talking about 20, but ultimately the state is going to make a determination as to what would be acceptable to them based on the accommodations and the square footage of this.
there's also fire alarm system with this uh as reflected on the as reflected on the plan
the plans here again it's about 2 000 square feet that we're talking about
this is the larger of the interior room this is the smaller this is the smaller room
Minus the furniture, of course. So, this is a hallway.
and again we have uh we have the art we have the rco the summary meeting the meeting summary
from oak lane which evidence is that this was take uh that this community meeting took place
on january 27th and there was support along with the signatures i know uh also there's tax
clearance also of this and then this is the notice of refusal would have the I would have
the board know that this space has been used for years as a commercial space it has it was used
first as a looks like a pharmacy then it was used as a plumbing heating office back in 1980
uh looks like a ladies looks like a clothing store back in 87 so what we are asking for
is we are asking for this variance to be approved and we would open it up for any questions
that this board may have
do you want to have your testimony adopted sure uh may i have uh miss rashaun bailey could you
please raise your hand so you can be promoted as a panelist
rashaun basically has been promoted to panelist
okay miss basely can you hear me yes hi okay wait wait wait wait one minute
hi please state your name is spelled for the stenographer yes my name is rashaun basely my
the spelling of it is r -a -s -h -i -a -n last name b -a -s -l -e -y you swear or affirm to tell the
truth the whole truth nothing but the truth yes please proceed counsel okay so miss basely did
you hear the testimony that i gave to the board for the past 10 minutes yes okay and
do you agree with the testimony that i have given to the board yes and you don't necessarily have
to but is there anything you would like to add to the testimony that I've given to the that I've
given to this board no not at this time okay and so we would have open it up for any questions if
anyone has regarding this particular project questions from the board uh yes um at the last
hearing here I had asked about the rear area here is that where the children will be
entering or playing there's an adjacent business from what I understand maybe oh okay so through
the back entrance we will not be playing back there but you we will allow if we need to far
as the parking in that area you will be able to come through the front and also through the back
for drop off and pick up we're going to have indoor play for the children it won't be outside
All right. And we, I think the concern was, again, a better idea of the exterior area here.
all right and uh we
Now you've shown the front, but the back is where, where will the children be entering?
Through the front door. Through the front door. Yes.
ones with the pull down yes correct okay and there's a door there and there's windows yes
it's a door there and there's two large windows right there actually three i'm sorry three large
windows and that's the interest okay and uh what is there a second means of ingress and egress here
for um fire purposes yes there is uh it is
the fire entrance is the door that leads to the outside in the back so when you walk through that
door there is like two steps and you'll be right outside to that back entrance where the gate is
and where cars can be parked is that you shouldn't be parked there is just a drop -off it's just
basically you shouldn't stay in there it's like if I did need to use that door it would be fine
for them to come through the gate and go straight into the daycare no cars it's parked there okay
how many children and what are the ages so we can't really dictate how many children until the
state comes out and tell, but I would like to do from infant to preschool.
Okay. All right. And
Okay. Thank you. You're welcome. Other questions?
jermaine the last uh hearing um mr richardson uh complained about there's a lot of congestion in
the front and thought it was a bad area do you remember that i i do i do um and right and that's
the reason why we presented the, hold on, the photos of the rear, because we do recognize
that there are, there is some congestion door net, but this area, hold on, this area right
here, which is a part of the building, is what would be used temporarily, and I believe
that that's what Ms. Baisley was referring to as far as what would alleviate the congestion.
They would just come there, pick up, drop off their children, well, drop off the children
in the morning, pick them up, and that's how it would be used.
That's why we thought that this angle, this vantage point was very important for the board
to see and consider.
So is this a driveway?
This is a driveway.
okay yeah where is this yeah where's the entrance yeah how do you how do you get from that driveway
to the front door are they not or how does that work so it's right next so this is the front door
right here or this is right here and if we go right here so it's all the way to the right of
the door that's correct they and then you you drop off the children and then what's your plan
they walk through the grass in front of how does it argue they're walking down to the pavement and
then around what's what's the plan the plan is for them to come through the front they can use the
back entrance if it do seem like it's getting congestion but i don't see that happening i don't
see the congestion i know for a fact that they could drop the kids off there and the front entrance
is fine but since they said it was a problem i know that we do have access to the side of the
building as well if it did get to the point of you know the parking or whatever it is once it
starts running it is a secondary way to get into the building your goal is to have the cars line
up along this driveway if it if it comes to it yes sir and it is there a path is there a i'm not
Yes, it's a path through the grass.
You can walk through the grass.
As soon as you walk through the grass, it's about two steps and it's a door, and that's the daycare.
So, it's not no walking through the building, no roaming around, straight in and straight out.
It's just two entrances.
It's the front and it's also the side of the building.
That's if it gets too congested in the front, we also have access to the side.
So, I just wanted to be sure before it gets congested or it be a problem, it's too access.
So I just wanted to be sure before it get congested or it'd be a problem is two accesses to the building, which is all on the first floor.
Okay. Thank you.
You're welcome.
Other questions from the board?
Questions from our attorney, Hillary Emerson?
Not at this time, Mr. Chair.
Questions or comments from the virtual audience?
I see no hands at this time, Chair.
Planning Commission.
thank you chairman and board members david effecto with the city planning commission
chairman and board members the comprehensive plan recommends no change to the rm1 residential
multi -family zoning at this location the city chain the city rezoned this neighborhood in 1978
in a council supported map change a child care center which is a facility for 13 or more children
not in the caregiver's primary residence, is not allowed in the underlying zoning,
nor by the 8th District Zoning Overlay. The property has a documented history as ground
floor commercial use with residential units above. However, the proposed use is likely to
cause congestion on Stenton Avenue during child pickup and drop -off. The City Planning Commission
recommends that the Board deny the proposed use variance for a child care center.
All right. Jermaine, we're going to vote on this next week. Am I right, Hillary? Next Wednesday at 930 a .m. We need one other board member here to listen to the tape. Okay. Okay. All right. No problem.
Thank you. Thank you for your presentation. Thank you. Thank you.
You have.
Number two, MI 2024 007407881 Windwood Road. Devin Upta is the attorney. This is a resumptive hearing.
Devin has been promoted to penalist okay good morning commissioner good morning Devin how are
you sir by yourself could you please state your name and spell for the stenographer yes Devin
hook that UQDH do you swear or affirm to tell the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth
I do. Yes. And there was support from the neighbors of Overbrook Association.
And I think this is a resumptive hearing.
And what we're looking for is more interior photos of the entire first floor and plan how the layout is in the property.
So and then what after you do that, we will take questions from the board.
We would open up the public testimony and also planning.
So why don't you start, sir, with the updates?
yeah do you want me to go through operation again or just go straight to the pictures
well I think you could do the photos that you were told to bring in the last time and
update it that way okay all right
let me share my screen let me know we can see the photos do you see my screen we've seen your
Okay. So, again, this is a resumptive hearing, as you mentioned. This is the outside of the property. I'm going to just scroll down to just show you some more of the inside of the property. So, just to reflect back, this is a property that is already zoned as a single -family home. We're looking to use the basement unit for a commercial space. It'll be a therapist. He'll be working out of the office. Basement unit's already set up.
the last hearing i didn't have like a variety of pictures of the basement unit
so i'm just going to go through some of the pictures of the inside of the property
this picture here is if you come in from the outside uh so this is the side of the property
here if you were to come in that side door you'll be walking in the side door right here
um so this is me standing inside the property looking down the hallway
these are a bathroom two offices in a closet
so again inside that same entryway door looking down a hallway again and it's two offices and
some storage so here's a picture of one of the offices with the door open
another picture with office is just some storage office chairs and stuff like that but again
it's already set up and everything's kind of like a white box set up already
this is the third office again it's just um a white box so the the work is already pretty much
done this is the bathroom this is the outsider property so
This is the bathroom.
This is the outsider property.
So, again, this was a door that I originally showed you that was open coming in.
I also have pictures of the residential portion of the property.
Do you want me to go into those, Commissioner?
I think, did you show last time the resident?
We didn't know.
I think you talked about the residential last time, correct?
Yeah, and the main issue is this one here, right?
Am I correct, Hillary?
Yeah, the office is what we're interested in.
So that was the main pictures of the office.
I can also, I have the letter of support as well.
I have the tax clearance.
Here's the posting.
um i guess aside from that do you want me to go into any more uh of the presentation or do you
have any why don't you bring your client on and adopt your testimony what your additional
information sure uh fatima are you on a call
i don't see anyone with that name in the virtual audience
second just i know that she was on but she was at work so just checking devon you're an officer
of the court we will accept your uh testimony questions from the board
okay um can you uh show me how you get from this
front door that you're saying the interns there to this office space and yes i can let me um
so this picture i'll zoom in a little bit
well yeah so here where my mouse is it's a door right there so this is the residential part
it's a separate door right here where my mouse is hovering yeah can you make the picture a little
bigger so i just yeah i i see what you're saying it's just hard to see okay this is a doorway right
here. So it's a separate entrance. I should have
another zoomed in picture of it as well. So if I
zoom in, this is a doorway here.
So it's just a complete separate door and this is the
All this is in the basement is what you explained. Yeah, so it's a
separate entrance. So this is the door, like if I were coming into the door, this is what I
walk into. So it's just a separate, it's a complete separate entrance. Okay.
Right. And then these, the doors that I'm seeing here, that's down this hall, those are where those offices are that you?
Yes. So these are the offices. So this, so for example, this door right here is the bathroom that's on this picture.
Then this is the other office. So they're all, those doors that I'm, when I'm looking down the halls, they're all just, just office spaces and bathrooms from each side.
these are two offices here and storage and then if i look down this hallway
this is one office and this is a bathroom right here
all right and uh this was a formerly a residential space is that the entire house was residential
yeah so the entire house was just always residential I think at some point it may have
been a multi -family based on the setup a lot most of the houses on the block are are multi -family
in an area it's like the Winfield area there's a lot of like multi -families a lot of houses are
really big three -story houses all right thank you all the questions from the board
questions from our attorney hillary emerson not at this time mr chair questions or comments
from the virtual audience i see no hands at this time commission thank you chairman and board
members david fecto with the city planning commission chairman and board members the
comprehensive plan recommends no change to the rsa3 residential single family zoning at this
location there are no there are no unique physical circumstances or conditions that would prevent
this property from being used in conformance with the zoning code the appellant has an administrative
remedy they could have applied for a home occupation which allows a professional office
with no employees and no visitors the city planning commission recommends the board deny
the requested use variants for a business and professional office attorney wants to make a
comment yeah sorry one other note for the record mr chair i just want to note that the the refusal
want to know that the the refusal because this is rsa3 it is missing a refusal for multiple
because this is rsa3 it is missing a refusal
principal uses on a lot um and it did not appear there was any parking on the site
there would be one parking space required for the dwelling unit and then one per 1 000 square
feet for the commercial use so just want to note that for the record okay thank you so mi2024
0 -0 -7 -4 -0 -7 -8 -8 -1
Wynwood Road. I vote yes. Mr. Chair,
I'm sorry. I apologize. There's one thing I wanted to bring up.
This property in the past
was owned multifamily, and if possible, the RCO
had agreed to hear if we amended the L &I
refusal to be multifamily. We were
not able to reschedule a meeting with them before this hearing.
Would it be possible to hold the vote and allow me to get the updated letter of support and L &I refusal?
So explain this.
What you would do is instead of a business, you'd have an apartment there?
So it would be so basically the property in the past was set up as multi -unit.
So it is technically sectioned for multi -unit.
So we would basically go back and instead of saying single family with a business, it would just be multifamily with the business, similar to the other property.
that um mr we've gone through the entire hearing with this being single family and a business i
think at this point you would need to submit a new application if you would like to do multi -family
at the property okay we're going we're going to stay in vote count i hope that's okay um
um so in my 2024 zero zero zero seven four zero seven eight eight one winwood road i vote yes
michael johnson my vote is yes cheryl gaston my vote is yes tennetta graham my vote is yes
and and devon uh stay there we have another case of yours so number three mi2024
four one four eight oh nine north 63rd street could you just state your name for the record
uh you don't have to be sworn you've already been sworn there's a letter of support from
overbook west neighbors incorporated and uh tenetta graham has a few questions for your
board uh good morning have you submitted your documents five days in advance of this hearing
yes okay and do you waive the reading of the refusal and stipulate to its accuracy
yes okay all right thank you you may share your screen and proceed with your case
can you see my screen
yes okay all right so this property is 809 north 63rd street it's about two blocks from the other
property um same owner this is a letter of refusal the letter of refusal is for a two -family household
living with a business professional space so similar to the property we just saw um
it is would be two families two it's two family living um business on the first floor into the
basement um i have a copy of the deed here as well that was recorded with the city
i'm going to go into some pictures of the surrounding parcels so again the property
is on 63rd this is on 63rd between jefferson and forget the street here um it's a commercial
mixed -use space
lands down to the other street.
So most of the property on the area
are multifamily or multifamily with a business on the
first floor. So both sides of the property are businesses. One is a
construction company run out of their home. The other one is a law firm that is run out of
a home on the first floor. This is the outside of the property.
809, three floors.
There is an entrance in the back that will be remodeled. The business will be
located mainly on the first floor in the basement, whereas the two upper floors are residential.
So this floor is an office space on the first floor
that the person who will be running the business will be using.
This door will take you to the basement where the door will also be using
for the business the basement has a separate bathroom the basement has a separate bathroom
for the business.
The basement has a separate
um it has a separate entrance that'll need to be upgraded it's also a back door
um so as i go into like more of the units of the property um so this is the first unit has a
kitchen the doorway to the backyard um it's on a separate junction box just some of the bedrooms
i try not to be too invasive the property is occupied but this is a bedroom in a property
um this is also another bedroom in a property and i showed you the kitchen um
um and then on the third floor of the property there is another unit second so it's the second
unit on the third floor of the property this is the bathroom that's on the second that's on the
third floor of the property this is the second bathroom this is the kitchen so here is the couch
living room um again the property is occupied but this is the sink and stove and stuff like that
refrigerator and stuff in the kitchen
as well.
And then I also have a letter of support from the RCO
which was
I think this was NOAA, Overbook West Neighborhood Association.
We went out and presented this to the community.
They were aware that there are businesses on both sides of the property
There are also multiple family properties on the block as well, as I mentioned.
Notice that went out to the community along with their...
This was an in -person meeting that we had.
This is the proof of tax clearance.
And this is the proof of posting.
This is the door that's in the front of the property, which is here.
So it's just a zoom up of this door here.
um again this is a similar situation they'll have a business on this business what i understand
will be like a printing company so they'll make signs and flyers and stuff like that for people
um and the person will be running a business also occupies it so this is more so to have
the ability to hang the sign um we do have so this is this personal here this personal here
is the company that has a construction company or law firm that runs out of it this one may be a
construction company that runs on the first floor.
Most of the area is
multifamily homes. We pretty much walk the
area. So it's usually a lot of multifamily
homes up and down this block.
And a lot of them have commercial spaces
on the bottom as well.
So the request is
allow us to have a
multifamily home and to operate a
business on the first floor.
Devin, are you
aware of the proviso they recommend?
I believe it's related to the signs, right?
Yes, no signs.
Yeah, yeah.
So we talked about that at the community.
Temporary variance, three years.
Oh, yes, yes.
They said that they wanted us to come back in three years and talk to the community, yes.
For the business, am I correct?
Okay, thank you.
Questions from the – why don't you bring your client on?
I'm sorry.
This is the same client from prior.
She hopped off.
She had to go back to work.
So I'm hoping that the board will –
Okay, so most of the court will take your testimony.
Questions from the board.
Did you say that this is already being used as an office?
So it's the property is occupied by a person like that they're not for the business.
The property is occupied by people. Yes.
OK, but as a residence, correct?
Yeah, not as a business, as a residence.
I'm saying that the person who resides there will be the person who runs the business there.
And they're going to run it from the first floor, you said?
The first floor and basement. Yes.
okay and can i can i see these pictures of this first floor again
this is office space so like they use this as an office now um on the first floor um there's a
door to the basement the basement has its own bathroom and it's made it's not it's an unfinished
basement but it does have a extra bathroom um it's concrete flooring and stuff like that and
it just said we had to be remodeled is that the only picture you have of the basement in this
presentation uh yeah it was unfinished but i have other pictures of it just being unfinished if
helpful. Yes. I mean, I'm having problems. What I'm seeing is basically a living space.
i'm i'm having problems what i'm seeing is basically a living space uh i i'm seeing a
piece of a dining room table i'm seeing what looks like a so yeah so right now or whatever
i'm not seeing this this so right now they don't have it uh it's not like i guess they're gonna
actually renovate this property so it is not like the other property that we just saw that
when they acquired it, it was pretty much renovated as if someone was running their
business out of their basement. This is going to be
they want the permission to do it prior to going and doing like the renovations because right now
it's more like a home office situation.
So they're going to actually renovate it.
You said the person who runs the business
lives upstairs. In both floors he lives now and he wants
to make a duplex up there? Is that what you're saying? So, right now, there is the person who
lives there is going to run a business, and then she has a sister who lives on the second floor.
Okay, and she's going to live on the third floor? Yes. Okay. But she's not going to kick her sister
out. I mean, her sister probably helped her with the business, but she's not. The goal is to just
legalize how it was set up prior. Okay. And where is this, like, I'm not seeing context here. Is this
a it it looks like it's okay is this in the middle of the block is this at the end of the
it is this is it's not it is one over from the corner so this is this house and then it's this
corner lot here is um it's just it's the corner property i think that is it's not a rooming house
maybe like maybe i want to say it's like an apartment building or so
so it's one over from the corner if that makes sense and this business you're talking about
this printing business we're talking um trucks we're talking deliveries i'm sorry i cannot hear
and i just try to turn up you said printing business correct so you're gonna need the
machinery, you're going to need deliveries of the
paper and
whatever to do this. You're going to, there's
going to be distribution, correct, of the printed materials
to people? So I think from what I understood, it was more like... How's that going to work
in this, what looks like a pretty residential
area here? So from what I understood,
uh more like flyer printing and stuff like that and again this this property here
uh this property here is an apartment builder so and then this property has three business
that runs out of it and we had their support as well it's a law firm that runs out of it i think
it's two lawyers actually because we met them craig thorpe law firm runs out there it's another
law firm on the second floor and i think the third floor i forget which business it is but
But this is multifamily, I think it's an apartment building, and this one is a business that's
on the first floor as well.
There's three businesses actually in that building.
But a law office is a little different than a business where you're talking about, you
know, distributing materials.
I mean, it's a bit more of a burden, I would say.
on the neighborhood that's just my uh read of it but okay how has this woman been in this
business for a while or is this a new business or what is her experience here to run this type
of business yeah i think she worked in the industry prior um but this she doesn't currently
have this business now she's worked in it before i guess um yes a new and fledgling business for
her correct as a super party yes yes okay all right thank you all the questions on the board
yes so uh consumer traffic um i guess the customers would just place their order and
come pick it up or i think that's the plan or if you ship to them yeah place the order and they
pick it up or if you ship to them i mean i think a lot of stuff is like ship via like amazon ups
guests and stuff like that. But yeah, I doubt it would be more foot traffic than the businesses
next door. But yeah, a lot of it is just place your order online and then it's shipped to you.
Other questions? Yeah, my question is for the entrance into the building. It goes right into
where you're planning an office, correct? Yes.
where you're planning a an office correct yes um as far as is there a separate entrance for the
third floor or the second floor they get without going through the office so they plan to build it
um because you can technically get to the office from an exterior door but their plan is to like
renovate all of that and just make it a separate entrance and use that separate door because i saw
on the picture that we have of the first floor there there is a set of stairs in the middle of
the floor correct correct so that would go up to the second and third floor so you would have access
coming in the front door to go to the bedrooms per se
yes currently yes prior to renovation there would have to be like a floor plan to add a
steps in another
location? No, they would use the
exterior door. So in the renovations,
there's another back door that they would use and build
out. Okay.
So the plan is to include the
basement and the basement
and our office space as well. So you would come in through
the exterior door, the other exterior door.
Is the basement
going to be used for storage?
Mainly, yeah. For the office or
actual office
storing equipment or actual
use of the equipment business operating um i would assume so i'll be honest i'm not
well versed in like printing company equipment but i know that the goal is to use the basement
and the office space entirely for the business but i i don't i don't know the types of equipment
that like um they're expect i don't know if it's going to just be big printers or like
with what all what all type of equipment that is out of my expertise i guess i'm saying
Okay. Questions from our attorney, Hillary Emerson.
Yes. So the refusal in this case says business and professional, presumably referring to business and professional office.
But what you're describing here is business support, which is a different use category.
So if that is what your client is pursuing, then the refusal needs to be amended to reflect business support as the use.
You need a variance for either business professional office or business support in the RTA1 zoning district, but the refusal needs to indicate the correct use that you're applying for.
And so, honestly, until I saw the RCO letter, I didn't realize that business support is what you were really asking for.
So, you know, we can finish out the hearing today, but if your client is pursuing business support, then we need to have an amended refusal before we can vote.
So just to clarify, the current refusal says business and professional, but because they're printing flyers, you see that as business support?
So a business and professional office is like a law office, architect, like an office, you know, administrative offices for a business.
But if you go to look at the definition of business support in the code, which is under the commercial services use category, it specifically says copy and print shops, which is that's what it sounds like this is here.
Questions or comments from the virtual audience?
Yes, Chair.
I have a hand up by Gregory Allen.
I'm going to promote them to penalties.
hello yes sir i could could you please state your name and spell for the sonographer
gregory allen g -r -e -g -o -r -y last name a -l -l -e -n do you swear or affirm to tell the truth told
truth nothing but the truth i do please make your presentation thank you chair and board members um
I am the chair of the RCO committee for Old Brook West neighbors. And as such, I am the person who recused himself by voting non -opposition. I have a decade -long relationship with the owner.
Having said that, the neighbors understand that the homes on this block, the properties, have largely been mixed use, rental, the property next door that Mr. Upta, Attorney Upta refers to.
The property next door that Mr. Upta, attorney Upta refers to, the two attorneys, the third
property, the third space is a construction service company called T. Savage Construction.
So we didn't have an issue with that.
We wanted to be clear that what many of you have already spoken about is that the waste
was taken away. I envisioned this more as a design company, not like a Kinko's or I guess
I'm dating myself like a FedEx UPS store, but that the waste was taken away, that the only
commercial use that would be allowed was for this, because without knowing, I tried to understand
that other commercial uses could be applied for.
So it would be solely for this.
And then the family said they had no intention
of renting the other spaces.
So the family was clear that they intended
to live in the property
and operate the first floor as a business.
Thank you very much for taking the time to close.
We appreciate it.
Anyone else in a virtual audience?
there are no other hands at this time too uh planning committee sure sorry yes sir just to
clarify the owner is not able to get on but they text me i said can you clarify that business
and it said custom printing and design uh so it says small personalizations and stuff like that
So I'm not sure if that's considered business support or separate from a business, but this is what, I mean, I can show them to hop on if that helps to just explain why they put it, why they asked it to be put under this category.
It doesn't seem like it's business support from what they're describing, custom printing and small custom personalizations.
Do you want me to see if I can bring them on?
If they're providing, if they're providing, like, so it says use, so the definition of business support is uses that provide personnel services, printing, copying, photographic services, or communication services to businesses or consumers.
Table uses include employment agencies, copy and print shops, telephone answering services, or photo developing labs.
so i think if they're providing if they're if they're printing things for people even doing
some customization i think that's still business support it's not like it's an office that
people come to um to obtain specific services such as you know attorney architect accountant
that sort of thing okay
planning commission
thank you chairman and good afternoon david fecto with the city planning commission
chairman and board members the comprehensive plan recommends no change to the rta1 residential
two -family zoning at this location the city rezoned this neighborhood in 2018 in accord
with recommendations in the comprehensive plan there are no unique physical circumstances or
conditions that will prevent this property from being used in strict conformity with the zoning
code the city planning commission recommends that the board deny the requested use variants for
business support hillary are we okay to vote on this no we need an amended refusal okay um so we
can hold, we can hold our vote.
It will be held until we have an amended refusal.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Number six, MI 2025
000470
3110 Aramingo Avenue.
This is a resumptive hearing. Henry Clinton is the attorney.
there's a support from south port richmond civic association the vote was 26 in support
six in opposition and a letter of non -opposition from council member squad we needed interior
photos the last time
chair i do not see henry clinton in the virtual audience
mr clinton
okay we're going to go to the next one
all right number seven mi 2025 000 596 1163 south 19th street
alak sokoloff is the attorney this is a resumptive hearing
Alok Sokoloff is the attorney. This is a resumptive hearing.
Lose letter of support from Point Breeze Community Development Coalition.
Chair, I have a hand up by the name of Gabriel Fellis. I'm going to promote them to panelists.
That's one of his clients. I mean, his partner.
Can you start with him, Mr. Chair? Yes, I do feel like his client sometimes, though.
No, no, you're not. Could you please state your name and spell it for the stenographer?
My name is Gabriel Fellis, G -A -B -R -I -E -L. My last name is Fellis, F -E -L -L -U -S.
Do you swear or affirm to tell the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth?
um so this is a resumptive hearing um we need an update from you we'll have questions from the
board public testimony and then planning commission will make a recommendation so um that's great
uh we have updated plans so why don't you why don't you give us your updated
sure so anything else yeah so i mean last time uh we met on may 21st i believe mr johns raised
a little bit of concerns about the basement living situation um so we updated our our plans to now
it's going to be essentially a two -family uh unit i'm sorry two -family dwelling the first four unit
is going to be just uh the first floor above grade uh basement is just going to be it's going to be
just a mechanical room and then the second and third floor will be as uh as originally proposed
to be one unit um i also have the architect from design blends who can walk you through
some of the new plans and I can share my screen so we could help you out.
His name is Scott Woodruff. He should be in the virtual audience.
So what we can do is why don't you go through the plans and if the board
has any questions, then we'll use the architect, okay? Sounds great.
So you went from nothing in the basement,
right? Just mechanicals. No, so originally
the first unit was going to be basement
and the first four, and the second unit
would be the second, fourth, and third four.
We revised those plans so that the first
unit is just going to be the first four,
and the second unit will be second and third
four, and with no
basement living.
So I can run you through.
So this would be
basement.
and this is the first floor with garage
and a third and fourth I believe are completely unchanged since the original uh proposal
so michael
mr johnson yeah i believe the commissioner just asked for you i i'm good with it
but the first the basement has a rec room is that we have there
did i see that yeah
i'm i'm good with that okay
all right um you want to bring your owner on yeah absolutely her name is uh miss barbara mosley
She should be in the virtual audience.
um your notes to the court will gladly take your testimony questions from the board
questions or comments from our attorney hlory emerson
not at this time mr chair questions or comments from the virtual audience
yes chair there is a hand up by barbara mosley will be promoted
hi miss mosley good morning hi could you please state your name and spell for this
stenographer. Barbara Mosley, B -A -R -B -A -R -A -M -O -S -L -E -Y. You swear or affirm that tell the truth,
the whole truth, nothing but the truth. I do. Please proceed, counsel. Ms. Mosley, how are you?
I'm doing well, thank you. Good. Did you hear my testimony earlier today? Yes.
AND WOULD YOU SAY IT'S TRUE AND CORRECT TO THE BEST OF YOUR KNOWLEDGE?
YES. AND WOULD YOU ADOPT IT AS IF IT WERE YOUR OWN?
YES. GREAT. THANK YOU.
OTHER COMMENTS FROM THE VIRTUAL AUDIENCE?
I SEE NO HEANS AT THIS TIME, CHAIR.
THANK YOU, CHAIRMAN. AND GOOD AFTERNOON. DAVID FECTO WITH THE CITY PLANNING COMMISSION.
CHAIRMAN AND BOARD MEMBERS, THE COMPREHENSIVE PLAN RECOMMENDS NO CHANGE TO THE RSA.
five residential single -family zoning at this location the city rezoned this neighborhood in
1985 and a council supported that change there are no unique physical conditions or circumstances of
of this property who are prevented from being used in strict conformity with the zoning code
city planning commission recommends that the board deny the requested use variance for multi -family
living and by 2025 zero excuse me mr chair we have to hold the vote on this matter um because
we do not have the correct form from the prior hearing we will we will vote on this next wednesday
at uh 9 30 a .m thank you thank you council thank you guys all right um do we hear from henry
number six
MI 2025
000470
3110 Aramingham Avenue
Henry Clinton is the attorney
it's a resumptive hearing
henry clinton will be rejoining us as a penile loose
good afternoon mr chairman hi mr clinton could you please state your name and spell for the
stenographer? Sure. Henry Clinton, H -E -N -R -Y, Clinton, C -L -I -N -T -O -N. Do you swear or affirm
to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? I do. So, Mr. Clinton, this
is a resumptive hearing, and this will be an update from you and the applicant. Sure.
Questions from the board, public testimony, and a planning commission recommendation.
Please proceed, Mr. Clinton.
Do you want to swear with him, Mr. Chairman?
Oh, I thought I did. I'm sorry. Do you swear or affirm to tell the truth,
all truth, nothing but the truth?
Thank you, Mr. Clinton.
I just wanted to make sure. Good afternoon, Mr. Chairman, members of the board.
I'm here concerning 3110 Aramingo, and if I can share my screen.
Please.
Is that visible, Mr. Chairman?
It is.
Right.
So we were last in front of the board May 14th at 2 o 'clock,
and this is a request to convert the first floor of a two -floor home on Aramingo
from a doctor's office to an apartment and maintain the apartment on the second floor.
The board may not remember, but when I presented the project previously, the floor plans were rather elementary or rudimentary, whatever word you want to use.
They were performed by my client.
So the request was, naturally, to get the floor plans upgraded to a professional grade, which we have done.
And they're in my table of contents referenced as well as in the packet.
I also have updated photos of the zoning notice and an email to all the affected RCOs as well as the updated tax clearance.
So here's what I say are rudimentary elementary floor plans presented in May.
Obviously, no detail at all, and it was done at the last minute by the client.
Now, here are the professional floor plans.
plans, this is what is, I should start with existing, this is the existing floor plan.
This is the existing floor plan.
So the first floor, we have.
So the first floor, we have doctor's office and consult room, a bathroom, which is going to be removed, full bath as well as a half bath, which is going to be removed on the first floor.
The second floor is existing and will remain existing.
There's two bedrooms, a bath and a kitchen on the second floor.
and the proposed changes are
basement is going to be mechanical room
and storage for the first floor.
The entrance is a sunroom.
There's a little porch on the front,
two bedrooms, a living, a bath,
and a kitchen in the rear.
There's access to the rear yard,
walking through the kitchen.
into the rear yard.
Second floor remains the same, accessed via the stairway in the hall
up into what I said before, two bedrooms, bath, and a kitchen.
These are postings of the notices of today's hearing for August 19th.
There's a photograph of the outside of the property with the posting,
And this is a little sunroom that I talked about on the first floor.
And the second floor has a bay and a little bit receded from the front first floor elevation.
This is the email to everyone who was at the first hearing, letting them know of today's hearing.
This is an updated tax clearance.
Well, it's not really a clearance, just proof that no real estate taxes erode.
um that's basically the presentation again it's a a doctor's office and an apartment on the first
floor and we're looking to make that first floor uh into an apartment we did have the support
of the rco as per my prior presentation and i can bring my client on and also
why don't you do that everybody bring your client on mr bylas are you on the call
Claudia
I see no one in the audience
Henry you're an officer of the court
we will take your testimony
questions from the board
I have a question
so on the second floor
you're going to have a different tenant
on the second floor
correct?
there's an existing tenant there
and that tenant is going to stay because i i see two bedrooms but and a kitchen but there's no
really living space up there am i wrong no you're right she kind of uses the the kitchen area
because it's not that big of a space the front is indented and then there's a roof over the
first floor in the back okay so like is the tenant using one of the bedrooms as like a living space
Just a couch or a TV?
Kind of.
I think it's kind of a studio where there's a pull -out bed, but also a couch and a television.
Thank you.
Thank you.
So it's a one -bedroom?
Correct.
But you say two -bedroom.
When you talk to the architect and the owner, it's a little bit of both.
I mean, there is a pull -out couch there, but also there's a television.
so so there's no living room i i guess the bedroom should have been called bedroom slash
living room sorry mr johns come on now is the kitchen you got a kitchen correct no living room
and a bedroom or two bedrooms and no living room no no there's not two bedrooms and a living room
It's a bedroom slash bedroom, living room, bath, and a kitchen.
I don't want to misdirect anything.
Yeah, well, I guess.
No, it's a one -bedroom.
It's a one -bedroom.
I don't see it.
I don't see it.
I don't see the bedroom, living room thing.
That's the one.
All right.
I hear you.
Other questions from the board?
yes where will the trash be stored for both units
the trash for the first floor unit will be in the yard
and I mean it is tight in the kitchen
I guess they could put a closet right here at the end but right now since it's
existing there's nothing there but we can put that in as a proviso
to have a closet put there right where my cursor is
Right where my cursor is.
Can I see the first floor plan?
Is this the new plan or is this the old plan?
This one is existing, but the second floor, which we were concentrating on, it's the same.
And actually the architect did insert that there.
about the closet all right and this is the the plan now the one on the uh correct
yes first floor i'm talking about sorry miss gasson yes
proposed first floors on the left
and i'm just going to make my comment again that i don't like the
bedrooms where you've got to walk through the living room and they wander all through the
house to find a bathroom so you know that's that's my only comment about the layout there
on the first floor i would agree with you that it's not uh one of the better layouts that we've
seen yeah it's not ideal okay questions from our attorney hillary emerson not at this time
mr chair questions or comments from the virtual audience i see no he's at this time too planning
commission thank you chairman and good afternoon david effector with the city planning commission
chairman and board members the comprehensive plan recommends no change to the rsa5 residential
single family zoning at this location the city rezoned this neighborhood in 2017
in accord with recommendations in the comprehensive plan the city issued a rental license in
2013 for one dwelling unit the city planning commission recommends the board deny the requested
use variance for two dwelling units thank you um mi 2025 000 470 3110 aramingo avenue i vote yes
with proviso trash closet to be installed on second floor michael johnny my vote is no
Cheryl Gaston
my vote is no
Teneda Graham my vote is no
thank you
thank you
is there anyone in the virtual audience whose case has not been called
does he know he is
thank you everybody
thank you