All right.
Mr. McDermott, is that your case?
Mr. Chairman, there's people on the Zoom call as well.
I don't know if any of them want to speak and raise their hand.
I don't know who got connected or not.
We don't do that in the...
Yeah, Mr. McDermott, we don't take public testimony in appeals against L&I.
If there's people you'd like to call as witnesses, you can do that,
but we don't take public testimony.
No problem.
All right, thank you very much.
So, city's presentation for Mr. Reuter, please.
Very briefly then, I'd like to call Sarah Adamo.
You can have my chair.
Thank you.
uh sorry see if you get that mic closed if you could
you can pull towards you good morning could you please state your name and spell for the
stenographer good morning my name is sarah adamo uh last name is a-d-a-m-o right do you swear or
affirm to tell the truth the whole truth nothing but the truth please proceed uh thank you ms
Adamo. Where are you currently employed? Department of Licenses and Inspections
Quality of Life Unit. And what do you do there? I am the Director of Legislation
and Zoning. And what does that role consist of? I provide direction to plans
examiners, supervisors on high-level zoning related issues. I'm also a member
of the Zoning Technical Committee.
And how long have you been with L&I?
Thirteen years.
And how much of that time have you been involved in zoning matters?
The entire time.
And during the course of your current position with the department
as Director of Legislation and Zoning,
did you come to be familiar with the recent permit
that was issued for 3201 Ryan Avenue?
If I may share my screen.
I'll see that.
We can.
Somebody can.
I'm going to draw your attention.
These are all, let me just indicate, these are all, these are all exhibits.
that were previously submitted uh either by the appellant or by the school district so there's
nothing these are not separate exhibits we're just trying to kind of streamline the amount of
documents that the board has because everybody's other than mr mcdermott can you see it okay yes
Now, can you see what's showing on the screen right here?
We can.
And what is this?
This is Zoning Permit ZP 2025-002664, issued for 3201 Ryan Avenue.
okay and what does this permit allow um this is a permit for the erection of an addition
to an existing uh structure that was used for educational facilities and it also documents
uh the removal of some parking spaces okay and in this uh this particular uh application
at this location it references the current zoning district as rsa1 and what is rsa1
um rsa1 is what was formerly known as r3 i believe it stands for residential single family attached
okay and you had heard were you sitting in the room when mr mcdermott was presenting his case
Yes, I was.
Okay, and you noticed his reference to the tables for residential uses and what was permitted?
And do you agree with Mr. McDermott that typically in RSA 1, educational facility would require a special exception?
Yes, I do.
Okay. Why wasn't it required in this instance?
In this instance, this isn't a new educational facility.
This is an existing campus that has already been approved for this use.
And so the property known as 3211 Ryan Avenue had an existing educational use going back several years.
Is that right?
Yes, that's correct.
And in terms of how Ellen and I views this, this was not – this permit wasn't seeking – this was specifically seeking an expansion of the educational use.
Is that right?
Yes, this was an addition, but the use was remaining the same.
Okay. And in terms of the existing structure on the property, that is the school building or the school buildings and ancillary buildings that were referenced previously, this was not expanding any previous variance or anything that was needed for those facilities like height or anything like that?
That's correct.
Okay. So, in terms of the use, does L&I view the educational facility use of the property to essentially extend to the entire boundary of the property?
Yes. Based on the way that this type of use functions, the entire campus, the entire property is used as an educational facility.
You see parking, fields, all those ancillary uses are all considered to be part of the educational facility.
Right. So, for instance, like the athletic fields, the modular classrooms, you know, everything that's used by the school for school-related activities is part of the educational use. Is that right?
That's correct.
Okay. So even though the code explicitly authorizes expansion of nonconforming uses, this doesn't even really qualify as an expansion of a nonconforming use.
It's just literally saying we're going to do this use inside these modular classrooms, right?
That's correct.
Okay. So there's no doubt in your mind that this permit application to create the modular classrooms did not require a special exception.
Correct.
And you saw previously there had been some reference made to a permit application regarding
parking.
I don't know if Mr. Sklaroff wants to go into this, but I believe—I'll pull it up.
I believe this is it.
uh i'm showing on the screen uh what appears to be a zoning use permit uh do you recognize that
yes i do
and when this was granted when
um this uh refuse on referral was issued on uh 7 24 2020 uh 2019
Let's see if I can enlarge this.
So again, the permit application and the permit that was issued in 2019, again, indicate that
at least by 2019, this property had been recognized as an educational facility.
Correct.
uh with again a certain number of parking spaces but again even
at that so since at least 2019 i'm going back at least i think reference prior to 2006 prior to the
current zoning code this has been used as a school property is that right yeah okay i don't know if
mr spark you want to go why don't you try to get closer please yeah why don't you take it
why don't it's about there oh wow
when was the zoning code last pre-written
uh 2012 i believe it was right when i got hired correct and before that uh was there a zoning code
uh for an r3 zoning district yes and did the residential district uh allow some non-residential
uses. So I want to show you a document which has a header of 14-203 residential related
uses, non-residential uses, and other permitted uses. The board will have to trust me that
I have taken out a lot of the language and just put the important language in. Were you
Were you at one point familiar with that section of the code?
I have read this section of the code.
I was not actually employed by Illinois when this code was being used,
so I haven't issued permits under this code.
But I have read it.
I have been familiar with parts.
There's a sub-taragraph brief.
And I haven't, we thought we could not submit exhibits shorter than three days.
I have paper copies of this, but I will represent the board.
This is an extraction from the pre-2012 zoning code.
Would you read subcaragraph point three?
So these are residential uses.
These are non-residential.
I'm sorry, non-residential uses that shall be permitted.
And subsection three is schools, colleges, universities,
and other institutions of learning, adjunct dormitories, and adjunct play and recreational grounds.
Is there any doubt that an entire property that was given permission to operate as an educational institution
included every piece of dirt within the property level?
That's correct. The entire campus was...
Let me ask you a question. Do you have a copy of that for Mr. McDermott?
I'm sorry. Yes, sir. And I have thoughts.
thank you can i ask some questions
uh i just wanted to say uh right now so i'm sharing my screen i'm going to unshare that's
the word uh stop sharing but i will put up just for the board's reference and mr mcdermott's
you can actually access the uh prior zoning code through the same link for the philadelphia code
so i'll just pull that up to show you it's not any really just a demonstrators exhibit you can
take judicial notice of what the zoning code used to be so i'll pull that up in the meantime well
thank you very much
go ahead good morning i heard them referencing a prior zoning code
is it true that a new zoning code was approved in 2012
yes yes okay august 22nd 2012 right sounds right okay so in that new zoning code
came all these tables right yeah okay so the old zoning code
any any of this documentation this wasn't carried forward correct
is this is in the new zoning code which was approved on august 22nd 2012 as a result
of mayor nutter creating a zoning commission to create a zoning code to update it so that you
wouldn't have old is this included in the new zoning code that exact language is not in the
that exact language is not in the new zoning code correct and would you think that
new zoning code correct and
i would feel that the reason why is to interact with the community and let the community have a
say in what's going on that's my opinion okay that's that's okay and following up
hold on are you done mr mcdarmid so they've referenced there's you have a permit in front
to you in 2019 correct yes okay in that permit in the top left corner there's a refusal and a
referral they're both checked correct yeah okay so according to the code at that time in 2019
which is after 2012 excuse me mr skaroff well he's not saying he's just saying it's coming over
Well, if you don't, go ahead.
Please proceed.
Relax.
So in 2012, and now we're in 2019, when they sought to put educational facilities at the exact same address, 3201 Ryan Avenue, it was refused and referred, correct?
Got to get on the mic.
All right. Mr. McDermott, are you done? Objection.
Objection mischaracterized the records of the Department of License and Inspection.
That's okay. The board needs to know.
On that, on that document, there are two boxes in the top left corner, correct?
They're both checked, referral and refusal in 2019, correct?
They are.
Okay, so at that time, somebody in O&I looked at the proposal and saw the tables and figured that it needed a special exception, a.k.a. based on a referral, and it needed a variance based on the refusal.
And those two boxes on that document are checked, correct?
They are checked.
I don't agree with that conclusion that the plans examiner reached on this application.
does she get the well why don't you ask her why why would you so this is the same department that
you work for it's the same department that you work for who at that time issued a refusal and
a referral having the applicant go and seek a variance and a special exception not either or
both and it states further down on that document does it not state the reasons why there is a
referral required and a refusal correct is is one of those reasons on that document parking
for the refusal yes okay is one of those reasons on that document for an educational facility
that is what the document says correct i this this this parcel is still not letting her answer
sorry i'm sorry go ahead i don't agree with the conclusion that was reached by the plans examiner
on this application. What action will be taken on that?
How is the public supposed to know what L and I is going to do depending on what they
had for breakfast? Why don't you describe why you don't.
I don't agree with the examiner requiring a special exception for the use on this application
for the same reason why I don't agree
that a special exception is required
on the current application that's under appeal
because the property was already approved
as a whole for the educational use.
Under a variance and a special exception.
That's not what she said.
I understand.
She's answered your question.
She disagrees with it.
I have just two more questions.
Mr. Adamo, if I got a permit prior to 2012 for a use that became unlawful afterwards,
do I still have a right to operate that use?
Yes, you do.
So that's a matter of constitutional law.
Is that correct?