I'm not an attorney, so I would defer to our law department to answer that.
Very well.
um so if if i came to so the right of the school district to operate an educational use of the
premises predated 2019 and at least went back to 2006 and probably much earlier if we could find
files that went back so the the permit for the use
So, the permit for the use encompasses the entire property.
Is that correct?
That is correct.
I have no further questions for Ms. Madonna.
I just want to say for the record, I'm sharing my screen.
I'm showing the pre-2012 zoning code, Section 14203.
So, it's the same document that Ms. McDermott has that Mr. Squire referred to.
So, just so it's in the record, I think, again, you can take judicial notice of this being
the zoning code prior to 2012 so i'm just going to stop sharing now if everybody had an opportunity
to take a peek at that okay i i don't have any further questions um for ms adamo if the board
does we're we're okay at this point neil do you have a anything else you want to present um yes
but it's it's if i may do you want to present by your witnesses okay just closing
it's always good to do your homework
uh the building
if i if i as a zoning attorney
get a refusal that requires some variances and also has a referral that purports to
require a special exception. I'm not going to fight with the examiner and waste another 30 days
to get that removed from the special exception because my real heavy lift is on the variances.
And when I come before you and ask for some variances, if you give me the variances,
you're certainly going to give me the special exception because the burden is so much lighter.
So were I the attorney on that 2019 application, I wouldn't have thought that, but it wasn't required because the whole property was already being used and entitled as a special exception and as an educational use.
The thing we're here is whether we needed to get a special exception has nothing to do with process, has nothing to do with parking.
It would take a long time to explain to you why a 2019 application was a little different.
But if I showed you the history, you would see that that property had been subdivided.
They subdivided the entire Ryan 3201 Ryan Avenue into four different lots.
The one for the Propel Elementary School, I think it was an elementary school, looks like a lollipop. And you have three other lots besides that. And so when they looked at that particular lot, they thought that was a new lot that didn't have anything to do with the high school.
I think they were wrong. It's not a strategy I would have taken. But having followed that, had nothing to do with a high school site. So the question is, do we need a special exception? It's nothing to do with 2019.
What it has to do with is, was there an approval for an educational use at the property under consideration here?
And the answer is yes.
It was granted under the old code.
Under the new code, they would have the same because they look as a more expansive view of use and would say it applied to the whole property.
so the only question before you is whether we need a special exception or whether the property
already had a special exception that's really a legal question has nothing to do with these
other issues that have come up the construction on the site is an l and i issue not for not a
zoning issue it's a construction issue i'm glad to answer any questions from the board if you want
to see some of the history from the 2019 I have the site plan that was used for
that and you would see our lot here is not included but you do know that this
board set a maximum number of spaces so as long as we don't exceed that it's no
issue and that we already have the right and it's our responsibility to the city
and to the students to give them the best possible academic environment
and the addition of modular classrooms to even out the pupil.
The pupil, how many pupils will be in a classroom is important.
How many pupils?
I would be glad to answer any questions.
I don't have any questions.
I have to close your remarks.
Is that all right?
Are you done?
I think so.
Are you done?
Yeah, I'm assuming this is closing right now.
Yeah, no, the city's position is really pretty simple.
This is a straightforward expansion of a nonconforming use, and, you know, again, under the current zoning code and the prior zoning code, the educational facility, a school, what have you, encompasses all the uses that one would associate for a school.
So again, you can think of this like, you know, you maybe have children, maybe have gone to see a play at their high school. The fact that the high school has plays doesn't make it a nightclub. It is all part of the educational thing. So that's why schools are defined rather broadly, and they include all of these other things.
And this is generally true of the post-2012 zoning code.
The uses extend to the entire property.
The use of 3201 is an educational facility, so they can do education anywhere on that property.
And because there was no expansion of – so the previous 2019 application, they needed to get additional height.
So that required a variance at the time.
I don't remember if that was 2019 or 2008, whatever it was.
So if they were expanding something like that, that would need either administrative adjustment,
if they were lowering it, or if they were adding floors, they would need to come back in for something else.
But this school, this property has been used as an educational site for decades.
And so it's clearly just, it's at most the expansion of a non-conforming educational facility.
But as Ms. Adamo explained, it's not even, we don't even really need to go there.
They're just building another building on a property that would allow it and allow them to do education in that building.
Thank you very much.
Mr. Barberman.
Thank you.
He just used the word building another building.
So in the late 2000s, prior to the new zoning code, a new Lincoln High School was built.
That needed variance.
that needed special exception, 2008-2009.
New zoning code comes into effect, August 22nd, 2012.
2019, new structure, right?
Building another building, that's how it's referred to,
is on the site, refusal and referral,
variance and special exception needed.
Mr. Sklaroff talked about
providing modular classrooms
for the students
I wouldn't want to be in that classroom
please don't refer to that as a service
sticking kids in trailers
I don't think the issue
he referred to it
he opened it
But he opened it.
It's not a service to this to the city and the students and the school district putting kids in a trailer.
Putting kids in a trailer that has.
We're going back. We're talking about Illinois. Remember?
We were. But let's let's I'm referring to what Mr.
Sklar referred to. I thought he taught about serving students.
So we're going to leave it at that. And you're saying that's a disservice.
Well, then I said fine. It's a disservice to students.
Right. 2000, late 2000s, new structures require special exception and variance.
This document, as I look at it, that Mr. Sklarov gave us under subsection 14203 in the old code.
But let's talk about it. Non-residential uses where the chart provides for non-residential uses.
The following uses shall be permitted. Underneath that, the letter B says the following non-residential uses shall be permitted.
only if a board of adjustment certificate is obtained then under that it talks about schools
and colleges and universities and other institutions of learning and adjunct dormitories
and adjacent and adjunct play and recreational grounds we're not asking for anything different
we're asking for the referral and the refusal to come through the zoning board to give the community
which includes the students, which includes some of the staff, which includes everybody in our
community. Give them a chance to have some input into this, not just $11 million worth of trailers
Not just $11 million worth of trailers showing up and ta-da, here we go, mobilized classrooms.
showing up and ta-da.
That's not fair.
That's not a service.
That's not a service.
Thank you very much.
Any questions from the board?
I have one.
This 2019 permit or permit application, which talked order refusal and referral, when you went through the zoning process, was the variance and the special exception granted?
I was clear. I was not involved in that application.
I was at Dilworth. I was not at Ballard at the time, as far as I recall.
But even if I were, I wouldn't be able to answer the question.
But I told you in an earlier argument what my approach would be.
I have to assume since the building went up, but if I showed you the application
and I can show you the site plan, you would see it is a different parcel than the one we're discussing.
I'd be glad you presented, but it's not necessary to go through all that
because the special exception approval had been granted decades ago,
and it applied and continues to apply.
And unless we abandon the use, the use continues lawfully
because under the code at the time, which is really in essence the same.
Objection.
objection is that in 2009 he's talking about existing stop stop what please proceed
um so i guess my only comment is um that as far as i know both variances and special exceptions
run with the land. So the fact that there was a new code that was introduced or whatever else
happened, if it predated any of that, then it still applies now. So whatever was granted in
terms of the variances that were previously granted from 2006, or you said something about
2008 or whatever before 2012 and any special exceptions that were granted prior to that
they would still run with the land they don't they don't terminate because there's a new code
or there's a change in the zoning designation of the property um afterwards so um if absolutely
that's my and if there was another special exception granted it would just be redundant
Well, I don't want to go there, but special exceptions are uses that are permitted as long as the zoning board approves.
So even if it was mistakenly required, say, by LNI, it just means that it jumped from the application process referred to the zoning board.
And then the Zoning Board would say there's a lesser standard, and there are burdens that anyone who is challenging a special exception has that are pretty stiff.
So I'm still on the whole idea that if you have the variance for the use and the special exception for the use on that property, then it runs with the land and would not be affected by a change in the zoning code.
Any other questions from the board?
We're going to move for a vote.
MI-2025-004-022-321-3201, Ryan Avenue.
Appeal is denied.
Everybody's got to vote, right?
Michael?
Michael John's appeal is denied.
Cheryl Gaston, my vote is that the appeal would be denied.
Hold on this one, too.
I'm sorry.
Tethergram, my vote is that the appeal is denied.
ryan mcadams my voters appeal denied thank you everyone
and i'll thank the board for accommodating myself and call this first
we're going to go to number four
you see here mi 2025 00004 28 48 chatham street this is a resumptive hearing
This is a resumptive hearing.
Here, I have a hand up by the name of Lisa Greco.
Why don't we see if he's using that line?
they have been promoted to panelists and now i see mr gallagher could you please promote him instead
Thank you.
hi um benjamin
benjamin
hello hi sir how are you i'm fine how are you good could you please turn your
video one we're trying to right now because we're going to need your video for you to present
there you go there you go all right so benjamin could you please state your name and spell for
stenographer my name is benjamin gallagher g-a-l-l-i-g-a-r right do you swear or affirm to
tell the truth the whole truth nothing but the truth yes i do so this is a resumptive hearing
and um we're going to get an update from you yes there'll be questions from the board
there'll be conversation with the public and then the planning commission will make a recommendation
okay i will note that initially the um the rco was opposed and now i see that the rco has non-opposition
and they also are looking at some provisos to add to this am i correct yes okay so why don't
you do this why don't you update us on what's happened since the last hearing right and then
we'll go from there okay okay well at the last hearing do you have any documents you're going
show us now uh yes documents why don't you put the documents up okay
okay so this is what it looks like now okay
you have to one at a time
I don't know
sorry we're having
okay so they can see our screen now so they can see everything we see yeah as soon as it comes
off so this is this is how it is now this is the way that the area that we're going for it looks
now no we're we don't see anything sir you don't sir i think you're just you're sharing um just
your screen and what your screen has pulled up right now is the zoom okay oh so you need to
switch to um you need to select share screen and then select the documents that you wish to show
us or if you want to show us your screen have those documents already pulled up so that when
you share your screen we can see the documents all right so that's can you see that or
yes okay this is how the area looks now
yes okay this is how the area looks now
this is for entertainment space am i correct yes it's uh going to be a well we're hoping to make
get a theater. Okay. We're trying to pull up the new ones. Do you have also plans to
show us? No, because we're trying to get it approved first before we spend money on the
plans. The last time we were here, the board had just asked us if we had any pictures of
what it would look like when it was done right and these are what what it would look like complete
sir i believe you had submitted some renderings to show what the space would look like once it