Susan Jaffe, Chair of the Zoning Board. If it appears on the paperwork or we have anything in the file, it would be factored in.
So unless it's in your file, you wouldn't factor that in?
We wouldn't know to factor that in. We -- unless there was something in the file or there were neighbors there or we received information about it, it would not be factored in. If there were violations, absolutely. If we had paperwork, yes.
So then my question to the Commissioner is: As the staffing of the Zoning Board prepares its paperwork on properties, is that something that we consistently 188 4/7/08 - Whole - 080022, 157, 160, 164, 165 make sure that we go back and re-review any previous complaints or history on the properties? COMMISSIONER ELFREY: Yes. They check the Hansen system to ensure that all of the violations and any supporting documentations are in the package.
So that's in the file? COMMISSIONER ELFREY: It should be.
I have a serious situation with 2429 North Palethorpe. It's an illegal garage that has operated for a long time. Three weeks ago, they came before the Zoning Board. There was a lot of opposition to it because he did not have the proper equipment to paint. Saturday, I went over there and, lo and behold, he's painting. We issued a cease-operations. The Zoning Board authorized his usage one day, 189 4/7/08 - Whole - 080022, 157, 160, 164, 165 and two days later, we had a cease-operations because of its history. And he's just blatant about it and he's painting. And we knew, based on the history of the property, that his intent was not just to do body and fender but to paint. But the Zoning Board -- and there was plenty of opposition, both community folks, our office. There was a history on the case and we issued the variance, obviously, with the proviso that he's not doing painting, but historically, that's what he's been doing, and that's what he was doing Saturday at 4 o'clock.
As I understand it, that case -- we actually had L&I go out and take a look at that case because there were complaints that he was doing work at night. And I wish Dominic were here, but he said there was no work being done at night, although some of 190 4/7/08 - Whole - 080022, 157, 160, 164, 165 the protestants had said that. I'm familiar with the case, though, because it's one of the few cases that stands out in my mind as, you know, a case that could have gone either way, and perhaps we made the wrong decision on it. I don't know. I can only say that when I got that information, I did ask L&I to go out and check and --
There is a cease on it, but the gentleman is very blatant. He does work Saturdays and Sundays. It's about four blocks from my house. I get at least two neighbors a week that come to my house. I drive by there deliberately every time, and he's still doing it; he's working -- it's a very small street, he's still working out on the 191 4/7/08 - Whole - 080022, 157, 160, 164, 165 street. And, like I said, at o'clock on Saturday, when we 4 finished our cleanup, I said, Let me go drive by there. Lo and behold, he was painting. Now, they're telling us we got to call the Police Department. I've talked to the captain, I have the neighbors constantly calling. But, as you know, that's a low-priority call. So we're in a -- it's in a section of the City where there's other things that are much, much more important. In a case like that, it would seem to me that that's not something that we want to consistently trouble the Police Department about, because it's not going to get on the top of the priority list. And as much as neighbors call and it's always on -- we put it on roll call, it's still functioning. We have not been able to get the Police Department to go out there and close it down. 192 4/7/08 - Whole - 080022, 157, 160, 164, 165 COMMISSIONER ELFREY: At the conclusion of this meeting, I'll speak to Deputy Commissioner Verdi, and we'll reach out to the Police Department and try to coordinate our efforts to alleviate that situation.
He has -- I've spoken to the captain. I mean, he sent me a text this morning and we were still on it.
I would offer one other suggestion. I mean, I don't like to talk about specific cases; I'd rather talk in general terms, and your question started out as a general question and then got very specific.
But, you know, if you feel that we voted in the wrong way, you can ask for a reconsideration or you can go through the process and file an appeal with Common Pleas Court.
There is going to be an appeal coming through, 193 4/7/08 - Whole - 080022, 157, 160, 164, 165 but I wondered if there was a reconsideration process that --
There is. We're getting tons of them because we're dealing with the former board, but I know this case was our -- you know, at least the most recent was our responsibility. Thank you.
Another point. I mean -- and I know this is really complicated. I have 12 ward leaders and civic groups doing 15 zoning in the district, and that is one that we are working with them to streamline, and every zoning volunteer group has its own processes not necessarily documented. We've gotten them to the point where they're defining boundaries. I'm meeting with each -- I met with all the groups on an initial round, all 15 of them, to say we need to do this in a more thoughtful feel 194 4/7/08 - Whole - 080022, 157, 160, 164, 165 way, and as much as I appreciate all of their energy, I'd love them to talk about what they want in their neighborhoods versus what they don't want. So we're working to help make this process smoother. And part of it is by sending a consistent message around processes in terms of who do they talk to, what are some of the problems that some of the civic groups have with certain types of businesses, so is that when someone is going before the Zoning, they're informed, and that has not been an easy process. I've mediated several meetings where I think the neighbors were out of bounds in how they treated folks and definitely don't create a culture and an environment where people want to go in, even along the corridors as we talk about corridor development. But this is something that I encourage -- and I know when I worked 195 4/7/08 - Whole - 080022, 157, 160, 164, 165 with Councilwoman Tasco, she has the Zoning -- a powerful woman over there, Miss Johnson, who lives off of that stuff. I really think that we should put together, my suggestion is, a task force based on some of the experience that is in Council, based on the reality of all of the different stakeholders who want to have a say, and try to come up with one process or as close to one process as possible, 'cause I think it's going make our lives easier. I know we're going to do it in the 7th. People can get upset me if they want, but I'm not doing three hours of zoning meetings with 15 different groups. But just something that we need to give thought to, because as much as we say the zoning reform piece is going to happen, it's going to take three or four years. And in the 196 4/7/08 - Whole - 080022, 157, 160, 164, 165 meantime, we have people spending hundreds and hundreds of hours in these discussions. I just think we need to do a better job. Again, for me to sit through a community meeting for three hours to talk about one business and have 50 people, where we could be talking about a whole host of, you know, more proactive issues, is very difficult. And I don't have the answer. I know we're looking to try to streamline that and create a more -- a fairer process. Even for businesses coming in and making some recommendations to them, but this is something that we really need to, in the interim, kind of work at. So I know that this is new for you. At some point, I'd love to just kind of brainstorm 'cause, again, we want to make this easier, but it's just very, very complicated 'cause it's just -- it's been going on for 30 197 4/7/08 - Whole - 080022, 157, 160, 164, 165 years. COMMISSIONER ELFREY: Councilwoman, at your convenience, have your staff contact us, and we will be happy to set up a meeting with you and do that brainstorming; that's a good idea.
Yeah, we definitely want someone assigned to work with us. We're going to do a retreat with all of my civic groups, and we would definitely like to have someone from L&I to come talk to us, because, as great as all those provisos are, I know you don't have the staff to do the enforcement. And as much as I tell the groups, you can do ten provisos; we're not going to be able to enforce some of the stuff, so... COMMISSIONER ELFREY: We'll be happy to work with you.
Thank you. 198 4/7/08 - Whole - 080022, 157, 160, 164, 165
Okay. Are there any other questions? (No further questions.)
There being none, thank you so much. Thank you so much for your testimony. We will recess this hearing until 1:30. Thank you so much. (Committee stands in recess.) (Proceedings resume at 1:55 p.m.)
The Committee of the Whole is now back in session. The next department to testify... MR. McPHERSON: ... is the Water Department. (Witnesses come forward.)
Good afternoon. Please identify yourself for the record and proceed with your testimony. COMMISSIONER BRUNWASSER: Good 199 4/7/08 - Whole - 080022, 157, 160, 164, 165 afternoon.
Good afternoon. COMMISSIONER BRUNWASSER: Good afternoon, President Verna and members of Council. I am Bernard Brunwasser, Water Commissioner, appearing before you today to testify on behalf of the Philadelphia Water Department's Fiscal 2009 Operating Budget request. On my right is Deputy Commissioner of Operations Debra McCarty, and on my left is Deputy Commissioner for Finance and Administration, Joseph Clare. Our proposal for a Water Department budget of $297 million is augmented by an additional $292 million for other Water Fund activities, including the Water Revenue Bureau, debt service, and central agency support, for a total Water Fund budget of $598 million. 4 million over the Fiscal 2008 appropriation level due primarily to a grant-funded water security initiative and for additional staff for storm water plan review and the partial funding of current vacancies. 8 million over FY 2008 appropriation levels due to increased costs for utilities and inflation. 8 million over Fiscal 2008 appropriation levels due primarily to large increases in the cost of chemicals used at the department's water-treatment and water-pollution 201 4/7/08 - Whole - 080022, 157, 160, 164, 165 control plants. The proposed Fiscal Year '09 total Water Fund Operating budget of $589 million is $115 million lower than our Fiscal 2008 appropriation. The reduction results from the removal of the nonrecurring Fiscal Year 2008 costs for the City's New River City Economic Development project, which was budgeted in Fiscal Year 2008 through the Water Fund at $125 million. As you know, the Philadelphia Water Department is a municipal utility serving the citizens of the Philadelphia region by providing integrated water, waste-water, and storm-water services. Our primary mission is to operate and maintain the infrastructure necessary to provide high-quality, affordable drinking water to protect the public health, to provide an adequate and reliable water supply for all residential, business, 202 4/7/08 - Whole - 080022, 157, 160, 164, 165 and public needs, and to sustain and enhance the region's watersheds and quality of life by managing waste water and storm water effectively. Philadelphia's drinking water is safer than ever, substantially better than state and federal regulations for purity require. Philadelphians have recognized the high-quality services provided by the Water Department, and our most recent citizen surveys show an 80 percent customer satisfaction level, with overly PWD services and overall water quality. The Water Department is also treating waste water to award-winning levels, overseeing the cleanest water environment in over 150 years and making progress in protecting our watersheds to keep our streams and rivers clean. This year, the Southeast and Southwest water-pollution control 203 4/7/08 - Whole - 080022, 157, 160, 164, 165 plants will receive platinum awards of perfect effluent compliance respectively from the National Association of Clean Water Agencies. These platinum awards are for a minimum of five years of perfect regulatory compliance. Southeast now has eight years of perfect regulatory compliance and Southwest has five years of perfect regulatory compliance. The Northeast plant will receive a gold award for perfect compliance in calendar-year 2007, its third year in a row with perfect compliance. The Water Department plans to monitor water quality and waste-water treatment performance through participation in the City's Philly Stat Program. Performance measures for these areas as well as other critical areas such as main breaks, hydrant availability, asset replacement, and storm-drain cleaning 204 4/7/08 - Whole - 080022, 157, 160, 164, 165 will be closely monitored and reported on a monthly basis. 6 million in additional revenues from a proposed rate increase. 5 percent increase starting July 1, 2011, for a typical customer.
These rate adjustments are largely driven by costs for employee fringe benefits and pensions, debt service on the department's next bond issue, and general inflation. Even with these revisions to 205 4/7/08 - Whole - 080022, 157, 160, 164, 165 rates, Philadelphia's water and sewer charges will continue to be among the lowest in the region. The department also plans to transmit legislation to City Council that will provide additional charges for the setting of charges for storm-water service. The legislation would amend Section 13-201 and clarify that all properties are responsible for storm- water-related charges and that the charges may be based on property characteristics. Under the proposed rates, the storm-water service charge for non-residential properties will transition from charges based on meter size to charges based on property characteristics. The transition will address inequities in how some non-residential customers currently pay for storm-water management. These rates will also incentivize smart 206 4/7/08 - Whole - 080022, 157, 160, 164, 165 storm-water practices such as the use of green roofs and porous pavement. This proposed change in property-based storm water rates will have no negative impact on the storm water charge for residential customers. The Water Department remains committed to providing utility services consistent with the highest level of customer service as set forth in the City's Strategic Plan. This would not be possible without the Water Department's dedicated and professional staff, many of whom hold leadership positions in the American Water Works Association, the National Association of Clean Water Agencies, the Delaware River Basin Commission, the Eastern Meter Management Association, the Partnership for the Delaware Estuary, the Coastal Zone Management Steering Committee for Pennsylvania, the Water Environment 207 4/7/08 - Whole - 080022, 157, 160, 164, 165 Federation, the Pennsylvania Department of Environmental Protection Water Advisory Council, and the Pennsylvania Section of the American Water Works Association. We look forward to continued partnership with City Council toward further improvement in Fiscal 2009 and the years ahead. At this time, I would be happy to answer any questions that you may have.
Thank you very much, Commissioner. You mentioned the New River City Economic Development project in your testimony. For the record, can you tell us the benefits that the Water Fund and the water ratepayers receive from this program? COMMISSIONER BRUNWASSER: Yes. All of the money that has been appropriated for the New River City Program is for public water and sewer 208 4/7/08 - Whole - 080022, 157, 160, 164, 165 infrastructure, and virtually all of it is earmarked for use in the Navy Yard. As you may know, the Navy Yard's water and sewer infrastructure was not up to par as far as the City's requirements were concerned, and this will allow us to bring that parcel, that huge parcel, up to City standards and also have it expand to reach more customers.
Thank you. This wasn't done at the Navy Yard simply because we were under the impression that the Food Distribution Center would be located there; it's for the entire complex, is it not? COMMISSIONER BRUNWASSER: Yes.
Thank you. You also mention in your testimony the quality of our drinking water, and I know that it was quite a talk about a month ago about the trace 209 4/7/08 - Whole - 080022, 157, 160, 164, 165 elements of certain drugs that were found in our water. Would you mind commenting on that, please. COMMISSIONER BRUNWASSER: Of course. The article that appeared was, I believe, written by an Associated Press reporter, and what he did was look at some -- ask many of the water utilities in the country if they had been testing for pharmaceuticals in their source water and their drinking water. Some have, some have not. Recently -- in recent years, we have been able to test at parts per trillion and even parts per quadrillion, which are so infinitesimally small. What Philadelphia did, when we found out from a US GS survey in 2000 that pharmaceuticals were showing up in trace amounts throughout the country, or in various areas of the country, we decided to begin testing ourselves. 210 4/7/08 - Whole - 080022, 157, 160, 164, 165 We do not have the capability of measuring parts per trillion. We had to use a special lab, and there's only a handful of laboratories that can even measure in these very minute quantities. And what we discovered -- the numbers that you saw in that report were not accurate. What we discovered was that there were 32 pharmaceuticals in our source-water supplies out of 75 that we specifically looked for. In our finished water supply, there were trace pharmaceuticals 16 found. These include caffeine, these 17 include Tylenol, and some of the relatively common over-the-counter or prescription drugs. What we have discovered in Philadelphia is very much the same as has been discovered not only in the United States, all over the United States, but also in Europe and in other parts of world. 211 4/7/08 - Whole - 080022, 157, 160, 164, 165 The problem is that when you test at these phenomenally small amounts -- we used to test in parts per billion. One part per billion is the equivalent of one thousand parts per trillion. And all of the pharmaceuticals that we found traces of were in the parts per trillion; we didn't find a single pharmaceutical in parts per billion. So now, since we want to be in the forefront of water research -- and we are. We have so many experts. s on staff who are the head of the laboratory and head of planning and research and also one of heads of our laboratories. s, and they're in the forefront of researching this. And we want to know what's in the water even if we're sure it's not harmful. The federal government has no 24 standards, no guidelines for pharmaceuticals in water. This is an 212 4/7/08 - Whole - 080022, 157, 160, 164, 165 emerging science, and we've only been looking at this for the past seven years or so. And Philadelphia tested more thoroughly than almost any other water utility in the country. So we found perhaps a few more compounds than most, but they were in such small quantities. " What I have to tell you is, nobody in the scientific community at this stage of the game believes that this is a danger or a problem today, a human health issue. But we want to be sure that we begin to monitor this from time to time to make sure that if we're to discover any pharmaceutical in our water, in our whole water supply or the whole chain of water that we see, 213 4/7/08 - Whole - 080022, 157, 160, 164, 165 that they either remain minute and will not cause a problem in the future. We're -- the federal government is just beginning to look into this now and also the state government, and I think the state government is now developing -- has developed a bill which addresses the disposal of unused medication. And we have already put information on our website telling folks what to do, you know, what we've discovered, telling them what they can do in the future in order to make sure that this does not become a problem. We don't think it's a serious health concern today for human beings.
But, you know, we -- clearly we know what we have, and that's saying more than many of the utilities at this point in time. Again, not everybody can test for this because there's only a couple 214 4/7/08 - Whole - 080022, 157, 160, 164, 165 of laboratories in the country that can measure in parts per trillion. And even the measurement at those levels hasn't been vetted entirely because it's been done for a very short period of time. But we are -- yeah, this is part of our research, and that's why we really didn't want to give this out to the media yet; but at the same time, we didn't want to be seen as holding back information.
Thank you very much. I appreciate your explanation. Commissioner, what initiatives is the Water Department implementing with regards to the storm water runoff problems that we are experiencing? COMMISSIONER BRUNWASSER: Well, we have just completed our two-and-a- half-year study of our sewer system in those areas of the City that have experienced sewer backups into their 215 4/7/08 - Whole - 080022, 157, 160, 164, 165 basements. The good news is that we have found solutions, a solution to virtually all of these problems. And the unfortunate thing is that to correct longtime sewer problems over a large area within the City will take some time. We have projects that we will be designing to relieve storm water backups -- or sewage backups in the neighborhoods of Northern Liberties, many areas of South Philadelphia and Washington Square West and Lower Kensington. I believe that that's basically it. And what is happening in these areas is, during these highly intense storms -- and we had a number of them between 2004 and 2006, as we all know. During these highly intense storms, the sewer itself can fill up very quickly, and before it's able to send the flow to the waste-water treatment 216 4/7/08 - Whole - 080022, 157, 160, 164, 165 plant, it will back up at times into -- you know, water seeks its own level. It will back up into some low-lying basements and cellars in these neighborhoods. Usually, it's the lowest fixture in the house that will go first. If someone has a toilet in their basement, if they have a sink in their basement, if that's the lowest point, it will start to come out. We also have a program for back-flow prevention. And we will, at our cost, install a back-flow preventer in some of these homes where we believe we can see that they have a problem. And that should resolve it. If it's done correctly and the people maintain the installation appropriately, that should help them out until the more permanent solution, such as a large intercepting sewer being built into their neighborhood to relieve storm flooding, to capture as 217 4/7/08 - Whole - 080022, 157, 160, 164, 165 much storm water as possible and take it directly to the river. Until those solutions are completed, this will be a -- this would be an area that we can help now. We've actually budgeted money in the current year's budget for this, and we certainly have money budgeted in next year's budget as well.
Thank you. The Chair recognizes Councilman Jones for a point of order.
What exactly is a back-flow (inaudible). Can you describe that? COMMISSIONER BRUNWASSER: I'll let Debra McCarty explain that one. DEPT. COMMISSIONER McCARTY: Debra McCartey Deputy Commissioner of operations. Councilman, it's a device that you can put on either your drain line feeding the sewer, so it would be a 218 4/7/08 - Whole - 080022, 157, 160, 164, 165 single point that -- basically, it allows flow to go in one direction and not other. Just very simply, it's like a flap. You can also put it on the individual fixtures, as the commissioner mentioned, the drain in the basement, the wash sink drain, things like that. And that's the basement protection program, that's what our goal is, to put it on the individual devices because if your downspout is connected to your drain line, we have to, you know, make sure it's upstream of where that connection is or disconnect the downspout. So it's less problematic, we believe, if we put it on individual fixtures. But, basically, it's a simple device, and the homeowner, as the Commissioner mentioned, needs to make sure it stays clean because you don't want anything stuck on it when the 219 4/7/08 - Whole - 080022, 157, 160, 164, 165 sewer is backing up. It's supposed to be closed.
If it's that simple -- I have constituents that call, that they just know when it rains -- and if the installation of a simple device like that is all it takes to stop that? DEPT. COMMISSIONER McCARTY: Well, it depends upon what's causing the problem. There are many reasons that you could get sewage in your basement.
Thank you. DEPT. COMMISSIONER McCARTY: So, you know, we would encourage folks, if they have a problem like that, to call 685-6800, and we'll investigate it.
You're welcome. Commissioner, you mentioned 220 4/7/08 - Whole - 080022, 157, 160, 164, 165 one of the causes for the water rate increase being debt service on the department's new bond issue. Several of us were not able to attend the briefing that you had in the caucus room last week because we were in here on the budget hearings. Would you mind explaining rather quickly what bond issue and why will it require an increase in our rates? COMMISSIONER BRUNWASSER: Well, President Verna, as you know, the department has a huge infrastructure which we maintain, and we have a capital budget, I think, currently of approximately $142 million. This is approximately -- this is along the order of what we need for normal maintenance and replacement of water mains or replacement of sewer mains and repairs and renewals at our seven plants right now. It's -- the value of our 221 4/7/08 - Whole - 080022, 157, 160, 164, 165 infrastructure would run into the tens of billions of dollars, and so we have a -- it's a very expensive proposition to keep ourselves ahead of the curve. Many water and sewer utilities are way behind the curve and are looking for thing federal government to bail them out with their infrastructure needs. There's no bailout coming, at least not while there's a war on, so they're still waiting. We've been aggressive at replacing water mains and sewer mains. And in the long run, it saves us a great deal of cost. We now add to our burden of 140 million or so with additional -- with the need to fund these corrections and improvements to our sewer system in South Philadelphia, Northern Liberties, and these other areas of the City. And in order to do that appropriately, we will have to raise more capital. 222 4/7/08 - Whole - 080022, 157, 160, 164, 165 Now, the department raises close to 30 percent of its capital needs through its own revenues, and so we do a lot of pay-as-you-go type of financing, but we sill have to go out for relatively large bonds issues. Mr. Clare could certainly tell you what the effect that the project bond issue do over the four-year rate period. DEPUTY COMMISSIONER CLARE: Council President, there's actually one new bond issue planned in this rate period. It was already approved. It's a $323 million issue that now looks like it -- the bonds will be issued in approximately February 2009. The first debt service will hit in July 2007 for approximately $22 million a year. We'll also need authorization for another bond issue, approximately $350 million in the fall of next year, and those bonds will likely be issued 223 4/7/08 - Whole - 080022, 157, 160, 164, 165 in February of 2012. The debt service would fall outside this rate period but would be in the order of about $25 million a year. Neither of those are in our current rate projections. They're in our rate study, but they're not in our current rate set that were set in July of last year.
Thank you very much. The Chair recognizes Councilman Clarke.
Thank you, Madam President. Good afternoon. I was actually going to ask you some questions about water shutoff policy, but I think Councilman Greenlee will take that mantle in questioning particularly related to a more recent activity in my Council District. And since Councilman Greenlee is an at-large Councilperson, 224 4/7/08 - Whole - 080022, 157, 160, 164, 165 he gets to be involved in everybody's district. I wanted to talk to you about an issue that I've talked about for quite some time, storm-water management. As you know, it was a recently enacted policy that was required by the federal government. COMMISSIONER BRUNWASSER: Ultimately, it's the federal government, yes.
All right. And while I understand the need for it essentially because of the antiquated systems that we have, both our water and sewer flowing into the same system -- and I live in one of those areas that has been affected by flooding -- it has created a substantial problem with development in particular both in terms of ability to move the process and in terms of the ultimate cost. And I know I've been talking 225 4/7/08 - Whole - 080022, 157, 160, 164, 165 to you about it. I give you a call all the time about a project that's being stalled because of this issue. COMMISSIONER BRUNWASSER: Yes.
Is there anything, both from a perspective of expediting that process -- and I know we apparently did something with the nonprofit development corporations and the costs associated, because regardless of expediting the process, there is a cost, and I'm seeing some developers spending upwards of a quarter of a million dollars that was an unbudgeted expense. Are we going to, one, come up with a process that expedites that across the board, not just with nonprofits? And, two, do we take into account the increased costs to developer, given the difficulties associated with the housing market and other development-related activities 226 4/7/08 - Whole - 080022, 157, 160, 164, 165 right now? I know that was a very long question but -- because I've talked to you about it for quite some time. COMMISSIONER BRUNWASSER: Right. We have taken steps. Some of the steps are in this Fiscal '09 Operating Budget. We are hoping to add engineers to the process of plan review.
Staff? COMMISSIONER BRUNWASSER: Staff, yes. And not only staff but also to continue to augment with contractual engineers who we will bring in under contract to augment our staff until, you know, until we, you know, have -- have gotten to the point where we believe our level of service is as good as it can be.
Is that a part of the $7 million increase request? COMMISSIONER BRUNWASSER: Yes. 227 4/7/08 - Whole - 080022, 157, 160, 164, 165 Now, what I should tell you is, you know, Licenses and Inspections, L&I, used to be known as kind of the holdup on these permitting problems, and now we've sort of taken the mantle since our new regulations went into effect in January of 2006. Some of these engineering reviews that we have to do take dozens of engineering man hours to accomplish. We can't kind of -- we're not in the position that we can ever rubber stamp these things. We actually have to do the modeling to see if the engineering firm has adequately taken care of storm water that hits this parcel. They have to collect the first inch of rain of any rain event, and that is a tough task for some of these parcels, particularly the parcels that have not left themselves very much land in which to, you know, in which to answer this challenge. 228 4/7/08 - Whole - 080022, 157, 160, 164, 165
Have we established guidelines that the developers can use as a blueprint for -- COMMISSIONER BRUNWASSER: Yes.
So we know -- they get -- COMMISSIONER BRUNWASSER: Yes. They are -- (Indiscernible; parties talking over each other.)
-- they're following types of remediation. COMMISSIONER BRUNWASSER: Yes. And they're posted on our website as well. And we're working with L&I. I think the L&I Commissioner was in here this morning, and we're working with 229 4/7/08 - Whole - 080022, 157, 160, 164, 165 L&I and others in the Law Department to speed up the process as best we can. One of things, as you mentioned, for these nonprofit builders or the builders who are building subsidized housing, we have given them the option, if time is of the essence, and I know often they come in and they say, you know, "I've got to get this approved, I've got to get my loan approved by the bank. I can't do that until this process is done." We have given them the option to go to any licensed professional engineer in Pennsylvania to get him to approve the plans. We will accept those plans.
If it's a approved -- COMMISSIONER BRUNWASSER: By A professional --
-- by you guys? 230 4/7/08 - Whole - 080022, 157, 160, 164, 165 COMMISSIONER BRUNWASSER: Yes. A licensed professional engineer in Pennsylvania, we will accept that for these types of projects.
So why don't we do that for everybody? COMMISSIONER BRUNWASSER: Because some of these projects -- we're talking about -- we're thinking about the larger projects?
Yes. COMMISSIONER BRUNWASSER: We don't want to do that for those. We want to take a closer look at those.
Why? I'm asking you why. COMMISSIONER BRUNWASSER: Because it's a complicated process. (Timer bell rings.) COMMISSIONER BRUNWASSER: And we have other -- we have State permits to also help these developers with Act 537 plans. The really large projects are 231 4/7/08 - Whole - 080022, 157, 160, 164, 165 ones that we absolutely want to have a hand in reviewing. Some of the projects that are subsidized housing, like I said, we have made an accommodation. We say, Okay, if it helps you -- if it helps you -- it's a pilot program. If it helps you, we will allow you to go get your approval from a licensed professional engineer in Pennsylvania.
Okay. My time is up, but that answer is -- does not past muster, and I'm going to come back. I have a follow-up question.
The Chair recognizes Councilman Green for a point of information.
(Inaudible, off-mic.) ... Councilman Clarke's question. Why don't you allow anybody who's doing a development to submit 232 4/7/08 - Whole - 080022, 157, 160, 164, 165 plans from a licensed professional engineer? COMMISSIONER BRUNWASSER: Well --
Every jurisdiction surrounding the City of Philadelphia -- Montgomery County, Chester County, Delaware County, Bucks County -- all permit private engineers to submit stamped. COMMISSIONER BRUNWASSER: Right.
And that's acceptable to their local storm-water management agencies. We do not do that. I'm aware of many developers; it's taken them nine months to a year to get storm water approval management. Why don't we allow that? COMMISSIONER BRUNWASSER: This particular program that we began is a pilot program, and we have offered that option to these particular folks who are -- who are -- basically have sometimes a very short timetable of 233 4/7/08 - Whole - 080022, 157, 160, 164, 165 getting their funding.
That is every person doing development in the City of Philadelphia. COMMISSIONER BRUNWASSER: Correct. (Indiscernible; parties talking over each other.) COMMISSIONER BRUNWASSER: Correct.
That's not just (indiscernible). That's all of our developers. The question is: Why don't you allow everyone to do that? Not why you allow the nonprofit to do it. Why don't you allow everyone to do it? That's the question. COMMISSIONER BRUNWASSER: We may if we see that this program is working out well. Now, any of the large parcels, they have professional engineers doing their work now. They have to do it, 234 4/7/08 - Whole - 080022, 157, 160, 164, 165 they have to have professional engineers doing their work.
Yes, but you don't -- but then it takes them nine months to go through an approval with you, and the changes that are asked for are very, very -- COMMISSIONER BRUNWASSER: Generally speaking, Councilman, since this program has started, the submissions that we have gotten were not the best. We have -- we -- despite the fact that we have open house every week in our -- for our storm water program, and we invite contractors and developers and engineers in every week to our place. Even at the beginning of this process, back in January of 2006, we actually gave contractors a CD ROM outlining everything they needed to do.
You still haven't answered the question, but I'll 235 4/7/08 - Whole - 080022, 157, 160, 164, 165 get back to it during my time for questioning. Thank you, Madam Chair.
You're welcome. The Chair recognizes Councilman Greenlee.
Thank you, Madam President. Good afternoon. First on the issue that Councilman Clarke touched on, I'll facetiously call it "our favorite subject" between the Water Department and me. On the barring of shutoffs Friday, Saturday, Sunday, and the day before holidays, Councilman Clarke alluded to an issue in his district last week on Friday, which was apparently a former school building, the former Sartain building, and it was -- almost got shut off; I know it got stopped at the end. What -- I understand -- and I 236 4/7/08 - Whole - 080022, 157, 160, 164, 165 also talked to Revenue Commissioner Richardson on this. COMMISSIONER BRUNWASSER: Mm-hmm.
It appears to be still some problem on how properties are coded, whether they're coded residential or not. And how far back is that; do you know? I mean, I don't know if you know or if that's more a Revenue question, but I think the Sartain School has been a residence for quite a while, right? Am I not right, Councilman.
Yeah, right, okay. You're absolutely right. I mean, it was a school at one time, but it hasn't been in a long time, I know that. So I -- it sounds like the coding issue is pretty old. Is that -- I mean, is that fair to say or 237 4/7/08 - Whole - 080022, 157, 160, 164, 165 do you know or -- COMMISSIONER BRUNWASSER: No, I don't know too much in the way of specifics. Now, remember, since we do get our information from the Water Revenue Bureau, it's supposed to have gone through, you know, due processes. And unless we see something that is unusual and we see some kind of mismatch, chances are we believe it's a clean property to shut off. Now, there are some miscoded properties, believe me, in this database.
Mm-hmm. COMMISSIONER BRUNWASSER: We have over 470,000 customers. Guaranteed, if even if it's one tenth of percent, that's a high number --
Mm-hmm. COMMISSIONER BRUNWASSER: -- of these coded properties. And we are kind of hoping that over time, 238 4/7/08 - Whole - 080022, 157, 160, 164, 165 particularly with a new billing system, the data that we cleansed, so to speak, to get into a new billing system will straighten most of that out.
Sort of clean that out? COMMISSIONER BRUNWASSER: Clean most of that out, but it's certainly not our intent to shut somebody off who is not supposed to be shut off.
Yeah, I understand. And -- but I guess it seems to be particularly with schools 'cause I know there's a lot of -- at least Commissioner Richardson lead me to believe that that's a problem that -- because there have been a lot of school buildings over the years that have been converted to residences of varying kinds. But on that where you just said about where -- that unless there's something obviously wrong, will there -- or has there been or 239 4/7/08 - Whole - 080022, 157, 160, 164, 165 will there be communication with the actual people that go out? because, I mean, I think, from what I know of this building, it's clearly a residential building now. Now, maybe it didn't see that on the person's paper that went out. But are the workers told now about this law, that you can't shut off on Friday, Saturday, and Sunday. And it would seem like in this case, the person that went out there who, by the way was very aggressive, but I won't get into that, said, you know, could have said, Well, geez, you know, we're not supposed to shut off on Friday; this is clearly a senior building. COMMISSIONER BRUNWASSER: Yeah. If it's clearly -- and you know I had told our shutoff people back in November not to shut off apartment buildings.
Right. I 240 4/7/08 - Whole - 080022, 157, 160, 164, 165 was going to get to that too. COMMISSIONER BRUNWASSER: So it was still -- so we still preceded the ordinance by a few months --
Right. COMMISSIONER BRUNWASSER: -- at least when it came to apartments houses.
Mm-hmm. COMMISSIONER BRUNWASSER: I guess it was not clear to him. I don't know all of the details.
No, I understand, I understand, I'm particularly concerned with school buildings 'cause my guess is this might not be the only one that this could happen with because there are -- I can think of the Daroff School, and that's near me, where I live, and a lot of others that have been -- if they're still coded "non-residential," we could still have that problem, you know. DEPT. COMMISSIONER McCARTY: 241 4/7/08 - Whole - 080022, 157, 160, 164, 165 (Inaudible, off-mic.)
Yeah, well, if they pay the bill, then we got no problem, but we always agreed, if they pay the bill, we have no problem. Another question on something I think we agree on more. The -- is it called the "Help Program" where you -- where there's a person that has a violation and the Water Department arranges for the work to be done and the bills -- COMMISSIONER BRUNWASSER: Yes.
-- and payback on their bills. COMMISSIONER BRUNWASSER: Yes.
I mean, it seems -- COMMISSIONER BRUNWASSER: It's a low-interest loan.
Yeah, a low-interest loan. That seems to have been a -- is it -- would you classify that as a successful program? It 242 4/7/08 - Whole - 080022, 157, 160, 164, 165 certainly seems to have worked very well, helps people either get their water back on quickly or keep their water on. Is that -- COMMISSIONER BRUNWASSER: We think it's been a very successful program, yes.
Mm-hmm. And I guess as far as getting the money back it's paid -- is it paid directly on the water bill, or is there a separate bill sent? COMMISSIONER BRUNWASSER: No, no, it's a separate bill.
A separate bill? COMMISSIONER BRUNWASSER: There's a separate bill.
And for the most part, have you had pretty good success in getting the money back? COMMISSIONER BRUNWASSER: Uh, again, I'm not so sure.
Okay. 243 4/7/08 - Whole - 080022, 157, 160, 164, 165 COMMISSIONER BRUNWASSER: I don't have a separate way of checking that.
Uh-huh, okay. COMMISSIONER BRUNWASSER: But the Water Revenue Bureau may.
Okay, gotcha. Last question: In that cleaning, which seems, for the most part, particularly when there's requests made, seem to get done pretty quickly. I know certainly the people that we work with in your department seem to communicate that very well. The one problem that seems to come up is sometimes when cars are parked, particularly if that inlet's in the middle of the back. Is there -- I know, for example, when the Streets Department is going to do some work around a pothole or a plumber's ditch or whatever, they can put signs 244 4/7/08 - Whole - 080022, 157, 160, 164, 165 up blocking parking. Is -- does the Water Department have that ability? Do you think that would be helpful? 'Cause I know sometimes that's the issue we get back when it hasn't been cleaned in a long time. (Timer bell rings.)
That that's been the problem, that cars are parked there, legally parked, but parked there. COMMISSIONER BRUNWASSER: Right, right. I think, you know, we do a lot of our work on a scheduled basis, which is good because it helps us to be more efficient.
Mm-hmm. COMMISSIONER BRUNWASSER: And we do -- I think we can do that if we don't already. We do that, you know.
245 4/7/08 - Whole - 080022, 157, 160, 164, 165 You're welcome. The Chair recognizes Councilman Green.
Thank you, Madam Chair. I -- back to the storm-water management briefly. I'm aware of numerous developers who follow guidelines that were published at one point and then fill out paperwork under existing guidelines at the time they applied for a permit. You then change your guidelines. Everything's approved, except now they're told to fill out new paperwork to match your existing current paperwork so that you can't fill out -- I think, you know, I think this is something that maybe the Water Department shouldn't be involved in because my understanding is the software package you're using is something that works very well for large suburban-type developments, 246 4/7/08 - Whole - 080022, 157, 160, 164, 165 where there's lots of land, but you're not using the software packages that are existing and available for urban infill projects, where a lot of these situations come up, where essentially, there's no back yard allowed because you've got to have these ditches and, you know, runoff. And you're not taking ponds for runoff, you're not taking into account the fact that the lots may have been blacktopped. Now there's going to be grass on them prior to change. I mean, it just -- it doesn't seem to me that this is working. And, you know, I don't know if you have specific plans for making it work that you want to share with us, or this is something we can just follow up on in separate hearings? COMMISSIONER BRUNWASSER: No. 23 We -- we do have plans. We have improved a great deal. We don't have the kind of backlog that we had 247 4/7/08 - Whole - 080022, 157, 160, 164, 165 sometime in the past. As I said, we're augmenting our forces, and this is a learning process for us, it's been a learning process for us; but also, for these builders, particularly for those builders that do not very much suburban experience, because the suburbs have been doing this for a longer period than we have.
But the suburbs don't have urban infill like we have, and that's where many of the delays and problems are. COMMISSIONER BRUNWASSER: Right. Well, I'm going to have Mr. Steve Furtek, who is our chief engineer and our general manager for planning and engineering, address the question about storm water.
Councilman, to some degree, you're absolutely correct. The infill issue with very small lot sizes is a little bit problematic for 248 4/7/08 - Whole - 080022, 157, 160, 164, 165 us and for the developer. We're looking at introducing a fee-in-lieu system, where the developer could pay into a fund rather than do onsite management. We would, in turn, use that money for storm-water management somewhere in that watershed or in the City. We're also looking at trading options for the developer. Now, these are a work in progress; we don't have them available as of yet, but we're getting there.
Okay. And what about the software program specifically?
I'm not quite certain exactly what you're referring to in that comment.
There are different programs that people apply to different types of lots. And, apparently, the City of Philadelphia is using only one program, which is a 249 4/7/08 - Whole - 080022, 157, 160, 164, 165 program that generally applies when you're doing sort of Lowe's or Home Depot-type developments. When you apply that to an urban infill project, you're never going to get the kind of water storage that you could get on a big site like that. And there are different specific software packages using similar models but that take into account the specific situation of urban infill and are somewhat more permissive. They also take into account factors like maybe you're, by putting a home on it, actually improving the watershed because there's going to be grass where there was none, et cetera.
Okay. I'm not quite versed on the details of the software programs. Generically speaking, I think we'll accept programs of a variety of nature as long as they provide that one inch of rain capture 250 4/7/08 - Whole - 080022, 157, 160, 164, 165 on the site, but I can get back to you with more information on that.
Yeah, please provide that to the Chair, because I don't believe that to be the case.
Also, there seems to be -- in storm-water management, there seems to be a feeling among developers almost that the staff is not trained properly or up to speed, and as a consequence, every decision is being made by managers. Managers may not be trained, and as a consequence, basically, the whole system is shutting down because people are afraid to say yes. Would you --
We've made tremendous strides in trying to improve the system. We had -- we probably went from about a 26-day review time to about a 10-day review time as of recently on technical submittals. We 251 4/7/08 - Whole - 080022, 157, 160, 164, 165 invested about a million dollars in outside consulting services to help us. We've reallocated resources within the department to this issue.
If you look at our department in this issue now today versus a year ago or a year-and-a-half ago, it's a tremendous difference. And, unfortunately, I think we're living off a bad reputation from a year-and-a-half ago.
I think you'll see that the difference is quite dramatic, if you really ask people.
Okay. I just have a lot of calls from developers that asked this question this week, not a year-and-a-half ago.
I mean, our number of reviews per project averaged over six; we're down to about three now. So 252 4/7/08 - Whole - 080022, 157, 160, 164, 165 that's a significant change. The number of days we take to review each submittal has gone down tremendously. So there are huge strides here.
Thank you. The Chair recognizes Councilman Jones.
Thank you, Madam President. A couple of quick questions. On clean-water pipelines, how much water do we lose? What percentage of water do we lose annually to breaks? COMMISSIONER BRUNWASSER: I'm not sure exactly how much we lose. We have approximately on average two breaks a year -- I mean, two breaks a day. That's a -- for an entire year. So we have about 3300 miles of water mains and we have 253 4/7/08 - Whole - 080022, 157, 160, 164, 165 approximately -- the five-year average is about 230 breaks per thousand miles of water main, and so we're talking something over 700. Some of them are on small mains losing a little bit of water relatively speaking, and some are on big transmission mains that could be 30 inches in diameter, 48 inches in diameter. And those can lose thousands -- thousands of gallons in minutes.
Does 15 percent of our fresh water sound a 16 little high annually? 17 COMMISSIONER BRUNWASSER: Of 18 loss to water main breaks? 19
What would 22 you estimate it as? 23 COMMISSIONER BRUNWASSER: I don't have that with me. We do have estimates of what the breaks -- I think 254 4/7/08 - Whole - 080022, 157, 160, 164, 165 we do have some estimates of the breaks. There's a lot of leakage in the system --
Combined leakages and breaks, what percentage would you guesstimate that we lose a year to the dirt? COMMISSIONER BRUNWASSER: Leakage and water main breaks?
That's a 18 figure I got from a study, which I will 19 forward to you -- 20 COMMISSIONER BRUNWASSER: Yes, 21 yes. 22
-- that said 23 that 23 percent of our fresh water annually we lose to water main breaks. Now, it's my understanding that we're 255 4/7/08 - Whole - 080022, 157, 160, 164, 165 -- COMMISSIONER BRUNWASSER: I think that's a probably a combination of breaks and leakage.
But the report goes on to say it's because of the aging infrastructure that we have, which is understandable. Is it, in fact, then logical that if we start to repair that, that those savings alone would pay for the repairs? COMMISSIONER BRUNWASSER: The -- one could -- there is a -- there is an analysis that one could do to kind of figure out where the payoff point is, yes. I don't -- I'm not sure where that is today, but --
I think if we're talking about somewhere in the neighborhood of percent clean water 22 loss, we're talking about the 23 possibility that the repairs could be paid for by the savings, the value of the product that we produce -- 256 4/7/08 - Whole - 080022, 157, 160, 164, 165 COMMISSIONER BRUNWASSER: Right.
That it merits us looking into it -- COMMISSIONER BRUNWASSER: Yes. Well --
-- because most of those job opportunities are labor-intense, correct? COMMISSIONER BRUNWASSER: Correct. Now, I should tell you that 230 breaks per thousand miles of pipe is better than the American Water Works Association average of water utilities, even though our system is older than most.
All right. We'll put that on the record for today. COMMISSIONER BRUNWASSER: And 270 is the average number of breaks per thousand miles of water main per year because, you know, you have 1,000 miles, and it could happen, you know, at an infinite number of locations on 257 4/7/08 - Whole - 080022, 157, 160, 164, 165 that thousand miles of main. But we are better than most. And we have stepped up our water-main replacement program since the mid-1990s, and we have a system in-house that we've had actually for quite a long time, where we assess all of the water mains that are in service currently and designate the worst ones for the next round of renewals.
My point here is that, as we start to look at shrinking resources, as we start talking about going green and having green water urinals, I think the first place we could start is in percent 18 of the leakage being repaired if, in 19 fact, the commodity that we're trying 20 to save is actually worth enough to 21 sell to other municipalities to bottle 22 as -- if they can bottle that water 23 that they're bottling based on some of the surveys I've seen about the quality of our water, we could bottle our own. 258 4/7/08 - Whole - 080022, 157, 160, 164, 165 So if the product is worth what it's worth, then we might want to take a look at investing in repairs, which are labor-intense. We can hire Philadelphians and put them to work in honest jobs to do some of the repairs if we just looked at it as a potential revenue increase to our municipality. And I'd like you to look at that. Twenty-three percent may be less than some; it's still too much, in my opinion. COMMISSIONER BRUNWASSER: Right. Well, our -- the major cost factors with the lose of water are the loss of the chemicals that you use to purify the water and also the electricity that you use to pump it.
Okay. COMMISSIONER BRUNWASSER: And those are the two major components because we do not have to pay for the source itself.
Second 259 4/7/08 - Whole - 080022, 157, 160, 164, 165 question: Under the Controller's report, we see that some of our larger institutional customers that owe us money happen to be the federal government, state government, and others? And what are we doing to collect some of those outstanding balances owed by them? (Timer bell rings.) COMMISSIONER BRUNWASSER: We would like to shut them off. (Laughter.) COMMISSIONER BRUNWASSER: But we -- you know, again, we don't make that determination ourselves, and I think -- I think the new revenue commissioner, I think, has promised to become, you know, much more aggressive, and hopefully, at first, he will hold out the olive branch to these other governments and these other agencies and maybe nonprofit or quasi-city or state, government agencies and, you know, hope for the best, that we 260 4/7/08 - Whole - 080022, 157, 160, 164, 165 collect before we're forced to do a shutoff.
Okay. I'd like to see them become current. Uncle Sam has gotten a free ride off of the City of Philadelphia long enough. Thank you, Madam President.
You're welcome. The Chair recognizes Councilman Clarke.
Okay, thank you. Thank you, Madam President. Storm-water management, I'm going to follow up on that, but before I do, do I understand that to the Councilman's question with respects to government entities that we do not -- or you cannot make the decision to shut 'em off, but yet we can shut off a senior citizens' building because of a dispute in a billing? I see some inconsistencies in that. COMMISSIONER BRUNWASSER: What 261 4/7/08 - Whole - 080022, 157, 160, 164, 165 we found out with the senior citizen building was, apparently --
I know what you found out. COMMISSIONER BRUNWASSER: -- we did not know it was a senior citizen building.
I'm just talking about as a matter of respect. And I'm really ticked off about that; that's why I let Councilman Greenlee ask the questions your guy out there and came back two times after apparently being told, allegedly being told by a supervisor to terminate the shutoff notice, and came back in spite of the fact that he saw the senior citizens sitting in that building, then he's made a decision that he didn't care what anybody did; he was going to cut that off anyway. But yet, we have some hesitancy in shutting off a government building, right? A government that 262 4/7/08 - Whole - 080022, 157, 160, 164, 165 clearly -- COMMISSIONER BRUNWASSER: But the hesitancy wasn't on the Water Department's part, Councilman.
Pardon me? COMMISSIONER BRUNWASSER: The hesitancy wasn't on the Water Department's part; it was on the -- you know, we do not -- we can only shut off those buildings that --
You get authorized? COMMISSIONER BRUNWASSER: -- that we've been authorized to shut off by the Revenue Department.
All right. Well, I'll deal with the Revenue. Storm-water management. And I apologize, I had to step out of the room a minute 'cause I knew Councilman Green was doing a follow-up. What was the answer to the question about whether or not we can expand the program to allow licensed 263 4/7/08 - Whole - 080022, 157, 160, 164, 165 recognized engineers to submit storm-water management plans that we would simply, based on understanding the nature of the entity that we were dealing with, approve and move this processes along as opposed to hiring as many additional engineers that you're talking about hiring to do the actual analysis? What was the answer to that question?
When we tried that program, it was a pilot program we stated with the public agencies of subsidized housing. And we were going to see how it worked. It may have worked well and we might roll it out to others. Ironically, it has not been used once, so the program's been put out there; no one's tried it or attempted it yet.
Are we going to find out? Or we don't think it's our responsibility to find out?
Well, I think the program's available and people have not availed themselves of it at this point. I'm not sure why.
'Cause it just started. I mean, it's not like we implemented that program a long time ago.
'Cause it happened as a result of the Norris Square project --
-- in Councilwoman Sanchez's -- and that was five months ago, so we're not talking about --
So are we going to -- I mean, what are we going to do? I mean, I understand you do 265 4/7/08 - Whole - 080022, 157, 160, 164, 165 what you do in your department, but I, like Councilman Green, at the end of the day, people look at -- they say, you know, Councilman -- and I heard earlier reference about a ten-day process, but right now, I have two projects in my district that I just dealt with that had to do three resubmissions that went beyond the ten-day process.
I mean, I can certainly control the amount of time a submittal is in my hands and how long it takes me to review that. I can control that with resources, with consulting services. What I can't control is the quality of that submission. So when we're seeing six, seven submissions and we write a three-page letter defining exactly what needs to be done, that's a 266 4/7/08 - Whole - 080022, 157, 160, 164, 165 problem. So we went on a proactive approach and said, okay, we need more training. We've had several outside sessions where, you know, basically seminars, workshops with developers, with the development community, in the hopes that we can all get on the same page to make this all quicker. The submittal level has come down; it's down to about three submittals now for a project approved. Our time to review has come down very much; it's probably one-fourth or one-fifth of the time it was a mere eight months ago. So there's been dramatic steps taken. Is it perfect? No, I'll grant you, it's not perfect.
So why wouldn't we entertain expanding the program that has worked in the suburban counties that allows licensed, recognized, knowledgeable engineers to 267 4/7/08 - Whole - 080022, 157, 160, 164, 165 simply submit a plan --
Don't forget. We're coming from the experience that the engineering firms that are submitting are all licensed engineers and we're having a problem with that. I mean, that's the foundation -- (Timer bell rings.)
The problem is with the nonprofit, it's with the engineers; it's not with the Water Department.
No, no. So we took a smaller pool and said let's try it, let's see how it works, let's see how successful it is. If it works good for both parties, hey, I'm all for it. 268 4/7/08 - Whole - 080022, 157, 160, 164, 165
But if there's no submissions, you won't know if that works 'cause said that nobody's taken advantage of the program because we've limited it to a. (Indiscernible; parties talking over each other.)
And you did point out very appropriately that it's been a relatively short period of time.
You're still not answering the question. Why don't we authorize everybody to -- why can't we do a pilot program -- I heard the bell, Madam President, I'm winding down. Why can't we widen the pool of people to do the submissions in a pilot program? I mean, the problem with nonprofits, nonprofits run on cycles, so when the funding is available at PHFA, which is one time a year, then you may get submissions. Developers want to develop every day 269 4/7/08 - Whole - 080022, 157, 160, 164, 165 of the week, so the ability to submit storm-water management proposals are probably going to be on a more consistent basis.
Council President Verna, Rhina Cutler, Deputy Mayor for Transportation and Utilities. Councilman, I am unaware of the issue of the pilot program. I have heard, although not recently, that there were issues with the development community in terms of the time it takes to processes the plans for the development. I'd like the opportunity to go back and take a look at the pilot program and see if it can it, in fact, be expanded. I will say for the record that even on road projects and bridge 270 4/7/08 - Whole - 080022, 157, 160, 164, 165 projects for engineers, oftentimes the engineers that the private developers use are not familiar with the standards that we require them to be familiar with. But that, in fact, should be our job to provide that outreach to tell me people what it is we want from them. So I will make a commitment to go back and look at this and see where the gaps are and then get back to the President with information for you all.
Thank you. The Chair recognizes Councilman Rizzo.
Commissioner, I think we really need to correct the record. With the government agencies that owe the Revenue Department for water, in many 271 4/7/08 - Whole - 080022, 157, 160, 164, 165 cases, it's slow pay for reasons of bureaucracy, and they know that it's slow pay. The money arrives; it's not like -- and I'd like you to tell me if I'm wrong here. There's no government agencies that have refused to pay us. It's the fact that they're slow in paying us; is that correct? Is that exactly what the scenario is? COMMISSIONER BRUNWASSER: I presume you're correct, Councilman. I don't know enough on these individual properties but, presumably, the federal government has enough money to pay us.
-- we just can't say here in Council that the government isn't paying our utility bills when, in fact, I don't know if they're subject to penalties for slow pay, but I'm sure the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania pays their water bills; at 272 4/7/08 - Whole - 080022, 157, 160, 164, 165 least I would hope so. And if that's not the case, I think we need the Deputy Mayor of Utilities to have the Revenue Department come back here to tell us if any government agency owes the City of Philadelphia money, whether federal or state. DEPUTY
Councilman, it's my understanding -- and, again, we are not the agency that collects the water bills, but it is my understanding that they not only owe us the original amount, but they are subject to penalties and they owe us that as well.
But the issue is that they're not refusing to pay, it's slow pay; is that correct. DEPUTY
That is my understanding. Perhaps I could just call them and nudge them along a little.
Well, let me 273 4/7/08 - Whole - 080022, 157, 160, 164, 165 tell you, if anybody can nudge, you can do it. (Laughter.)
Let's go back to something very basic, Commissioner, I want to talk to you about. I'm having a tough time understanding the impact on this new rate that you're trying to develop for storm water. I'd like to know what effect it's going to have on the average residential customer. COMMISSIONER BRUNWASSER: Councilman, most residential customers will basically not be affected by the new ordinance that we're seeking as part of the next rate process. What happened in Fiscal Years 2002 through 2004 was that we had discovered in the 1990s that we had -- the model that we used as a surrogate for storm water, which is meter size, was not allocated approximately, and the residential customer was 274 4/7/08 - Whole - 080022, 157, 160, 164, 165 overpaying for storm water in their service charge, and the large properties were underpaying, the commercial/industrial group was underpaying. So between the years 2002 and 2004, in three gulps, we straightened out the difference between residentials and commercial/ industrials so that most residentials are now paying appropriately for storm water in their bill. Their service charge is allocated based on a typical or average-size residential parcel. So that's what we did back then. At the end of Fiscal 2004, the commercial/industrial customers, as a whole, were appropriately charged for storm water, but within that group, using meter size, which is still a surrogate, was not the best method. The best method would actually be to -- using GIS and BRT and Records Department information to actually 275 4/7/08 - Whole - 080022, 157, 160, 164, 165 take a look and see what the size of their parcels are and the characteristics of those parcels vis-a-vis storm water. In other words if you have two identical-sized lots and one is completely paved and one is completely grassed, the one that is paved should pay more than the one that is all grassed, because there's a higher runoff coefficient from the paved parcel. So this is the gist of what we're planning to do. Beginning in Fiscal 2010 through Fiscal 2012, we hope to reallocate within the commercial/industrial group appropriately based on lot size and not on meter size.
So you do it presently by meter size? COMMISSIONER BRUNWASSER: Yes.
Scattered throughout the City, there are under 276 4/7/08 - Whole - 080022, 157, 160, 164, 165 2,000 water-only customers; that means they have onsite sewage, septic tanks. (Timer bill rings.) COMMISSIONER BRUNWASSER: Yes.
In your testimony, you're encouraging people to recover storm water. COMMISSIONER BRUNWASSER: We are, but we are able to offer the large-meter customers who can make a real dent in storm water --
Commissioner, I'm talking past. I started off my conversation talking about the average residential customer. COMMISSIONER BRUNWASSER: Right.
You have 2,000 customers that have no sewage at all going to you that's going into a septic tank, it's pumped out. Why would we want to go after those? And I think you better check with the Law Department; I think there was a lawsuit that stopped that. 277 4/7/08 - Whole - 080022, 157, 160, 164, 165 COMMISSIONER BRUNWASSER: There was in the 1980s.
And the -- so I think we have to understand what the lawsuit said before we move forward, to see if it's even appropriate to do, but those 2,000 customers that you're encouraging to recover their storm water that have no 11 tie to the City's sewage systems to try to recover or charge them for storm- water runoff when, in many cases, it goes, in the northeast or the northwest, into Wissahickon Creek. So I'm going not to be very supportive of that effort to charge these -- especially the water-only customers an additional fee for water runoff, where they pay zero right now, correct? COMMISSIONER BRUNWASSER: Yes. They do not pay for storm water.
Okay, all right. We're going to need to learn 278 4/7/08 - Whole - 080022, 157, 160, 164, 165 more about that. You know, I personally try to be very supportive of what you folks do over there, but sometimes I don't want to see you get unreasonable. And that one to me seems a little unreasonable. Thank you, Madam Chair.
You're welcome. The Chair recognizes Councilman Kelly.
Thank you, Madam Chair. First of all, good luck in trying to get money from the federal government. The way they're spending our money today, with the national debt going up, I'm not so sure they could afford a water cooler at this point. But good luck to you, anyway. Commissioner, what I want to ask you is what's -- maybe it's more appropriate if I ask this to the Revenue Commissioner, but I want to 279 4/7/08 - Whole - 080022, 157, 160, 164, 165 know the criteria used to shut off any facility. In other words, do you have a different policy regarding -- whether it be apartments, whether it be nonprofits, whether it be a business or government building -- is there any difference there? COMMISSIONER BRUNWASSER: Well, actually, the major division is between residentials and commercial/ industrials. So when it comes to a residential shutoff, the criteria is two cycles, two billings, two payments missed, with a total of at least $75 owed before the Bureau would start a shutoff procedure. Now, the reason it's only $75 is, we made a commitment that it's much better to head off these problems before the money gets out of hand. So $75 isn't a lot of money, but it's best to begin your collection effort in the early stages, when the person 280 4/7/08 - Whole - 080022, 157, 160, 164, 165 has a better chance to resolve a reasonably small bill.
Would that include apartments also? COMMISSIONER BRUNWASSER: Yes, I believe so, yeah. I think it's the -- when you get to commercial, to a business establishment, they only have to be one month in arrears before we can start the procedure. Now, the shutoff procedure, with due process, the sending of two notices, adds a good two months or so, two to two-and-a-half months to the process before someone actually shows up to shut off the property. And most folks do make an agreement, or they either pay their bill off or call for an agreement and make a partial payment to the Revenue Department and an agreement to pay off the old balance perhaps over the next six months or so.
All right. 281 4/7/08 - Whole - 080022, 157, 160, 164, 165 In other words, it's two months, and after two months, the Revenue Department would send you a list of properties to be shut off? COMMISSIONER BRUNWASSER: Well, it would be two months of them missing the bill -- not making payment. They have to have at least a $75 delinquency.
And then it's an additional two month to send out the notice? COMMISSIONER BRUNWASSER: Not, it will -- they will send out, I guess, a 30-day notice, a first notice, which basically tells you that in 45 days -- after 45 days, if you've not paid your bill or come in to make an agreement, that you will be --
Okay. COMMISSIONER BRUNWASSER: Now, 282 4/7/08 - Whole - 080022, 157, 160, 164, 165 30 days after that 45-day notice, they get a 15-day -- they get a second notice of shutoff, telling them that they have about days to come in. 6 And then anytime after that 7 date, which is at least 15 days out, 8 the Water Department will come out and 9 shut you off. 10
In other 11 words, you work very, very closely with 12 the Revenue Department. 13 COMMISSIONER BRUNWASSER: Yes. 14
In other 15 words, they would notify you, if the person made a payment -- COMMISSIONER BRUNWASSER: Yes.
And that would be within the 15 days, I assume; is that right? COMMISSIONER BRUNWASSER: Yes. You know, so what you've got is a 283 4/7/08 - Whole - 080022, 157, 160, 164, 165 minimum of two months of nonpayment of the bill plus a very minimum of 45 days. Now, there's some administrative time that may go by, maybe another week to ten days, so you're talking -- generally speaking, when the Water Department gets a property for shutoff, it's generally a good four months since they've paid their bill, I would say, on average.
And is that policy still with -- include nonprofits or government offices? COMMISSIONER BRUNWASSER: Yes.
In other words, it includes everyone. COMMISSIONER BRUNWASSER: Yes.
Okay. All right. Thank you. Thank you, Madam President. Thank you, Commissioner.
The Chair recognizes Councilman Green. 284 4/7/08 - Whole - 080022, 157, 160, 164, 165
Thank you, Madam Chair. Do you negotiate your own electric rates? COMMISSIONER BRUNWASSER: No, no, we don't.
Who does that? COMMISSIONER BRUNWASSER: The City does that on our behalf.
The City -- COMMISSIONER BRUNWASSER: Of Philadelphia, the Public Property.
Public Property negotiates that. COMMISSIONER BRUNWASSER: Energy office.
Okay. How much electricity -- how much do you buy; do you know what your rate is compared to commercial industry or -- COMMISSIONER BRUNWASSER: We have been governed up until -- well, actually, I think we're still under it. 285 4/7/08 - Whole - 080022, 157, 160, 164, 165 We've gotten a discount that the City negotiated some years back, and I think it's still in effect until, oh, I don't know, maybe January, January of 2009.
How much do we pay for chemicals for the processes? COMMISSIONER BRUNWASSER: Quite a bit. It's been going up. Our chemical costs have gone up about $5 million just in one fiscal year.