COUNCIL OF THE CITY OF PHILADELPHIA JOINT COMMITTEES ON LABOR AND CIVIL SERVICE AND PARKS, RECREATION AND CULTURAL AFFAIRS Room 400, City Hall Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19106 Tuesday, June 10, 2025 10:10 a.m. PRESENT: COUNCILMAN JIM HARRITY, CHAIR COUNCILMAN ANTHONY PHILLIPS, CHAIR COUNCILWOMAN NINA AHMAD COUNCILWOMAN CINDY BASS COUNCILWOMAN KATHERINE GILMORE RICHARDSON COUNCILMAN CURTIS JONES, JR. COUNCILWOMAN RUE LANDAU COUNCILWOMAN QUETCY M. LOZADA COUNCILMAN JEFFREY YOUNG, JR. RESOLUTION: 250397 - - -
Good morning, everyone. The hour has come as my colleague just said. This is a public hearing of the Joint Committee on Labor and Civil Service and Parks and Recreation regarding Resolution No. 250397. I note for the record that a quorum of the committee is present. This hearing is now called to order. Mr. Kunkel, will you please read the title of the resolution being considered today.
Resolution 17 No. 250397, titled authorizing the Committee on Labor and Civil Service and the Committee on Parks and Recreation to hold joint hearings investigating the City's enforcement of the Healthy Outdoor Public Spaces, HOPS, law and the risks that exposure to synthetic pesticides pose to the public and City employees.
Okay. Where are we at -- all right. Mr. Kunkel, would any member -- oh, okay. I'm sorry. Thank you all for being here today. The purpose of this is to collect as much information as possible so that we as a Council can figure out next steps on how we deal with this. Quite frankly -- I'm sorry. I just don't get it. But for the sake of time and since I want to keep things moving, would any other member like to make remarks? I recognize Councilman Curtis Jones.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you for bringing this important issue back around to the forefront. The 4th Councilmanic District represents close to 68% to 70% of the parkland. So this is a downstream issue that we care a great deal about, learned a great deal about in how the watershed actually impacts a lot of the areas. So what happens in the Upper Wissahickon affects Eastwick, and we've learned that. When it was brought to our office's attention about the negative impacts of some of these chemicals and long-lasting impacts where our children play, it was distressing. But what we found to be true was that we were kind of juxtaposing fighting over the cost of safety versus the safety of our children. And those two things shouldn't often come into conflict but they do. So one of the things I'm looking forward to hearing, Mr. Chairman, is if not now, when. And if not alternatives, what do we do to safeguard the health of our children and our seniors and people who play in those parks. So I want to thank you again for taking this up as an At-large member of Council. You represent all of the parks. So thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you. And before I pass it to my Co-Chair of Parks & Rec, you touched on a thing that I don't get as well which is the cost. If we're thinking about the cost when it comes to our kids, listen, guys like me who had to spray this stuff for a living, I got paid to spray this so, you know, that was my thing. But these kids, they don't know this stuff's being sprayed. And just putting up signs saying it's wet, don't go into the woods, that's just asking the kids to go into the woods. So my question is how much does a child cost nowadays? What is the life of a child worth? For me it's worth everything. So I'm glad that we're doing this. I can't believe that we have to do this. Councilman Phillips, do you have anything to add?
Yep. Good morning. Good morning, everyone. I'm proud to work with Councilmember Jim Harrity on this particular concern. We are all in the mindset that we have to work on making our Parks and Recreation system better. And for you to have the experience of doing this and to bring this up as something that was important to our community, I want to say thank you. In addition to that, what I'm hoping from today's hearing is that we come up with better alternatives to support this matter, right. Because at the end of the day, we understand that children may make a decision that may not be in their best interest even when they see a sign even, adults alike as well. And then also in addition to that, we got to protect our workers. And then also we don't know the lingering facts even at the science or removed of, you know, just having those particles out there. So I think now with this Administration we have an opportunity to do the right thing. And hopefully, we can come together and see this as a productive conversation on how we can do the right thing together. Thank you.
Thank you, Chairman Harrity. Thank you for convening this. The fact that we have to convene this is outlandish to me. Almost four years ago this bill was passed, four years ago. Since then, six cases have been filed in Philadelphia against Bayer pesticide manufacturer. I don't know why we are wasting everybody's time here because the bill has been passed -- and by the way, I am told our Madam Mayor was someone who signed onto that bill. I do not understand why we are having to rehash this all over again because it is abundantly clear this is poison. No other way to put it. It is poison. We don't need it. We need to reform how we do these things. Yes, the Parks & Recs have to figure out what the alternatives are and they had four years to do something. But bottom line is, do we value human lives, do we value our children's lives. And according the PA Department of Health, the exposure to toxic chemicals has been linked to cancer, asthma, developmental and learning disabilities, nerve and immune system damage, liver and kidney damage, reproductive impairment, birth defect and more. I don't know how much we need to underscore that this is bad for us, all of us, not just children, all of us. So what we need is to understand what is standing in the way of implementation. You know, let's be clear that we want evidence-based responses to say what is standing in the way to do this. Is it because we are going to have to think about how we view our landscape, it'll look different than cleanly-mowed lawns? What is it that is holding us back? And this thought that we passed legislation and it is something that does not have to be paid attention to, that's the whole point of having a legislative body. What are we doing here wasting people's time? I hope the fourth (inaudible) is watching and making sure to hold accountable those who are standing in the way of us doing business that need to get done. This was already done, so thank you to this Joint Committee for just underscoring that we are always told we are, you know, not doing enough. We did this. It's done. Let's move. Time to stop making excuses. Thank you, Chairman.
All right. We're all set now and right on time. Cindy Bass, our Councilwoman from the 8th District, who authored this bill.
Thank you. Thank you to all my colleagues and thank you to everyone who's here today. And I know we've had talks about this. Well, I don't even want to say it seems like for years because it has been for years that we've been talking about, what can we do, how can we make this work. I think that the legislation that we authored and passed in this body a few years ago is something that's more than reasonable. So I think that what we'd like to hear today is why it has not been implemented, and we understand budgetary constraints. But just before I came down, I was listening to my colleague Councilman Harrity discussing what's the price of a human, what's the price of a child, what's the price of your parents, my parents, you know, my siblings, your siblings, like what is the price tag that we want to associate with a healthy green space in the city of Philadelphia because we know that what we are doing is spraying areas with toxic chemicals that are making people sick. We know this is happening. And so, to do nothing is absolutely unacceptable and this is something that's not going to just go away. Someone -- we had a call last week and discussed this matter with the Administration and with the Law Department. And the idea or the theory being that somehow this piece of legislation was a legislative overreach is absolutely unacceptable. And I said on that call that if -- this is what we do, you know, we legislate. The City Philadelphia, City Council, we appropriate, we legislate and we investigate. That's what we do. We don't run departments. And so, everything we do in terms of directing a department to do this, directing an agency to do that, all of these things that we do are executed by the Administration. And so, if we don't have authority on this matter, what matters do we have authority on and is it a matter that needs to be before Commonwealth Court. So I would hope that we will be able to find resolution in the matter. I think I see Coun -- Sue Slawson, I'm sorry, I see my good friend the Commissioner Sue Slawson around the chair there, who I know is very interested in trying to work together, that we should all be working together to find a resolution, and we are more than willing to do that in light of the legislation that's been passed. We don't think that this is a matter that needs to go before the courts. We think we can figure it out here. But in a worst-case scenario if it becomes a question, the legal question from the Law Department of this is some sort of a legislative overreach, what determines it to be so and then what is the function then of the Council in terms of passing legislation to help make the City work. So that being said, I look forward to hearing the testimony today and trying to help figure this out. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Thank you, Councilwoman. Anyone else, any of my colleagues have anything else to say? (No response.)
No, all right. We're going to move right along then. Will the Clerk please call the first panel of witnesses to testify.
Commissioner Susan Slawson, Department of Parks and Recreation. (Witnesses approached witness table.)
And just for the record, I'd like to note that our Leader is here, Councilwoman Katherine Gilmore Richardson. Thank you for coming out. I think everybody else was here when we called the roll. I'll add the presence of Councilwoman Cindy Bass. Mr. Kunkel, will you please call the first panel and we can get started. COMMISSIONER SLAWSON: Good morning, Committee Chair Phillips, Chair Harrity and Committee members. My name is Susan Slawson and I serve as the Commissioner for the Department of Parks and Recreation. I'm joined here today with Deputy Commissioner of Operations Susan Buck and Deputy Commissioner of Planning, Property and Strategic Engagement Leanne Campbell. I'm here today to testify on Resolution No. 250397, which authorized this hearing about the City's enforcement of the Healthy Outdoor Public Spaces bill 19 and the City's application of synthetic pesticides. Council passed Bill No. 200425-A known as the HOPS bill in 2020. Its intent was to prohibit the use of synthetic herbicides on any outdoor property owned by the city. The bill was also intended to require recordkeeping and reporting of herbicide usage. The Mayor, at that time, returned the HOPS bill 7 unsigned with a letter recognizing the importance of the issue and seeking a compromise for the Council's concerns, which I will outline the letter returning Bill 12 200425-A unsigned, explained that the Administration will commit to do the following: Number one, PPR would post signs in advance of applying any herbicides which will remain up until the herbicides dry. Two, herbicides will not be applied within 50 feet of play equipment on PPR property. Three, a pilot program will be initiated on certain parklands to objectively evaluate the cost, time, effectiveness and applicator safety of organic products compared to products currently in use. These results would subsequently be shared in a public forum and PPR will utilize these findings to make further timely decisions about organics and their uses. And number four, PPR will engage in ongoing recordkeeping and reporting on all herbicide usage. PPR continues to hold true to those four commitments. This approach strikes the right balance in assuring the safety of residents, while simultaneously meeting our obligation to best practices for adequately maintaining thousands of acres of land for all to enjoy. S. Environmental Protection Agency, which requires extensive scientific data on the potential health and environment effects of these substances. PPR's use of these herbicides is always in accordance with their labels pursuant to state and federal laws. Additionally, PPR's staff and contractors who perform herbicide applications hold certified pesticide applicator licenses and follow strict guidelines to ensure the proper use of herbicides. PPR's application of synthetic herbicides is based on guidance from an extensive network of local and national subject matter experts, such as environmental scientists and well- respected practitioners, including senior members of PPR's staff with decades of experience managing and restoring Philadelphia's rich and diverse park system. These products are vital controlling problems of vegetation throughout our parks and have been part of our land management strategy for decades. PPR is committed to remaining compliant with the aforementioned precautions and preparations to ensure that herbicides being used are in a manner that will adequately maintain the land while simultaneously keeping residents and staff safe. We actually appreciate the opportunity to testify and we welcome questions, and this Administration is definitely concerned as well as we want to work with Council in ensuring that we are doing whatever is necessary to -- I think we're all concerned about the safety of our kids, our friends and our family. So our goal today is to come up with some solutions on how we can work together to make sure we can make the changes that are within our, you know, reach.
So that's why we're here today. So if you have any questions, please feel free.
Is there anybody else testifying up there? COMMISSIONER SLAWSON: No. 12
No, okay. All right. I'm going to start this off with the author of the bill. Since I'm in control, I'm going to give it to my sister and let her ask her questions first because it was her bill to start with. Councilwoman Cindy Bass.
I'm well. It's good to see you. So a few questions. The first is, I know we've had these conversations for years now and the Administration is always saying that they're willing to work with us, but I haven't seen the fruit of that. And I know that this predates you. I haven't seen the fruit of that effort to work together. And so, can you give us some indication as to what working together can produce? Do you have some ideas or suggestions that you want to present to the committee today about what we can do? COMMISSIONER SLAWSON: Yes. Sue Buck.
Sue Buck, Deputy Commissioner of Operations. We did put those four protocols into place during last --
We did put the four protocols into place that Commissioner Slawson gave during her testimony regarding signage reporting and the pilot program. And I just want to say I do believe there's other things that we could look at --
Okay. So before we -- 50 feet from play equipment, maybe we look at 100 feet or what's appropriate. We start to look at mapping our system to see where the fence lines are located to the play equipment to see, you know, maybe we were too short during the last administration, right. So maybe we look at -- I heard from, from Councilman Harrity ball fields in the runoff. Maybe we say no 6 spraying on ball fields. I mean, there has to be some other considerations that PPR, Parks and Recreation, takes into account for the health and safety of the children that are using our playgrounds.
Let me ask from a different angle as well because obviously the health and safety of children is paramount. But let me ask also about our workforce that interact with these chemicals. And I'm going to borrow from my good colleague Council -- Dr. Nina Ahmad here, who as we were just talking about the spraying and the signage is displayed while the chemicals are, you know, until they're dry, but that the chemicals are actually seeping into the ground and into water. And so, we can't really control, you know, it's kind of like, okay, we spray them and it's dry so it's no longer a threat. It is still a threat because it does still end up in our water supply and in other places. So just thinking about the PPR staffing, you know, the employees who have to, you know, put these chemicals out, does Parks and Recreation, do they or have they considered finding out the cancer rates among employees and people who deal with these chemicals? Have we looked at that at all or can we look at that if we have not? COMMISSIONER SLAWSON: We definitely can look at that. And we actually have a staff member here. If it's okay, I'd like to ask for AeLin Compton to come up so she can address some of your questions.
Certainly. COMMISSIONER SLAWSON: Thank you. (Witness approached witness table.)
How's this? Can you hear me okay? I'm a little softspoken so right up to my mouth.
Thank you for that. I'm a little nervous. This is very intimidating.
Thank you for that. My name is AeLin Compton. I work with Philadelphia Parks and Recreation on the Natural Lands Team. My title is Environmental Restoration Crew Chief. So I'm a D.C. 33 member. So I have the great honor of tending to our City's public metro lands. And so, I'm one of the people who would be administering these chemicals. I also oversee contractors who do much of our herbicide work for us. And so, yeah, again it's my great honor to tend to these lands. It's my goal. You know, we live in a city that has forests. We're so lucky. Philadelphia has big, beautiful, peaceful, amazing, important forests and I think they're critical to the health and safety and sanity of our citizens. I believe very strongly that if you live in the city of Philadelphia you should have access to natural lands. You should be able to go see beautiful meadows. You should be able to enjoy trails. You should be able to breathe in the clean air that our trees provide. And so, with that ethos I do my work and I'm so grateful to be here today to be able to defend the work that I do. And so, I'm here to help answer some of your questions. Again, I work primarily in the field. I am a licensed applicator. And again, I oversee a lot of the work that is completed by contractors in a natural land setting.
So let me ask you, are you tracking or is this something that you would be responsible for in terms of tracking who is becoming ill, you know, maybe have some symptoms that should be concerning? Is that you?
That's a great question. I think Parks and Recreation has a safety officer who might receive those information better than I, but I will say that between me and my staff I supervise the staff of two. And so, I would probably be their first point of contact in the handling of any of these chemicals if they experience any symptoms, any issues. I should preface that by saying that we are very strict and diligent in ensuring that our staff have the appropriate PPE, that both they have access to it, that they understand how to use it, when to use it and we adhere very strictly --
Oh, absolutely. Yes. So every product that we use again it's reviewed by the EPA. So this is federally- registered products. And we have a saying in the industry, the label is the law, right. So whatever is in the label of that product is the law and that label specifies what PPE is required for use of that product. And also, every product comes with a safety data sheet. So between those two documents, we're able to confirm exactly what's required. And so, from there we have what's required and then also just what each individual staff person's comfort level is. So we offer more than is required essentially. So we offer my team chemical resistant gloves, eye protection. We also have, you know, we have full Tyvek coveralls that will cover your entire body. We offer boot covers to cover your boots. We offer gators that basically go from your boots up to your knees so that if you're wading through vegetation that may have been treated, you have the opportunity to cover that. I should specify that none of the products we use require or even recommend that level of PPE, but we make them available.
I got to have some clarity here. Do you have any OSHA training or any hazardous material training?
Thank you. Yeah, that's a good answer. I'm glad to see now that you're saying Tyvek suits because that wasn't the case and that's not in your specs. It just says they must be wearing long -- you understand?
And you say that they need to be wearing a mask. We have to wear respirators. This here, which you have a copy of now, is the law. This is OSHA. This is what we all follow. These are the rules, all right, for one of us in the laborers Union. In order to spray that stuff, we must have a Tyvek suit on. We must have rubber chemical resistant gloves, rubber chemical resistant boots. We must also have a respirator, a full respirator, not just glasses and a paper mask. This is micro spray. And if you don't know what that means, that means when it sprays back at you, you don't necessarily feel it. And they get into that paper mask and it sits there and people breathe that in. So for you to tell me that you're following the law, the guidelines, on the back of the thing is a warning, that is not the law. This is the law. And that's just what I -- I'm sorry for interrupting.
That's okay. I think the Chairman, you know, the points made were very important to make. And the question I have is, are these materials, as Chairman Harrity just mentioned, that are required, Parks and Recreation is requiring them also, are we requiring them or can folks deviate and as long as you have on long pants that you're okay?
So I should say that the bare minimum requirement for all staff who may be interacting with, you know, this is mixing, transporting, applying herbicides is they must adhere to what the label requires for that product.
Okay. So it's not optional? I just wanted to be clear on that because I wasn't really clear.
Thank you for the opportunity to clarify. So it is not optional. If they want to go above and beyond, they have access to that equipment.
Got you. Understood. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'll come back around. I know there are other questions.
Yeah. I'm going to go to Chairman Phillips from Parks & Rec. Then we'll have Nina Ahmad and then Rue Landau.
Thank you so much, Chairman Harrity. Just a few questions. Currently, originally in the bill 22 it mentioned that, you know, it was unsigned. The 2020 letter, excuse me, the 2020 letter from the Administration committed to piloting organic alternatives. What were the results of that pilot program? And particularly, for organic products were they evaluated, how did they perform in terms of cost effectiveness and safety for staff and the environment? What were the results of that pilot program? And also thank you, Commissioner, for your commitment to Parks & Rec. COMMISSIONER SLAWSON: I'm going to give you some -- share the information to your question. So in May of 2022, PPR initiated organic herbicide trials at Fern Hill Park, 4600 Morris Street, to test the efficacy of organic pest management practices. These trials have been completed, resulting in the compilation of a summary report on the use of organic pest management practices. These trials found that the pelargonic acid treatments were not effective at controlling targets regardless of location, sun exposure or species. Treatments burned off a portion of the aboveground vegetation. However, roots remained unaffected across all targets, allowing plants to resprout and continue to grow. Many species, particularly vines and woody plants, resprouted vigorously. The dense regrowth was more challenging to control, requiring approximately four times as much product and twice as much time to treat with unsatisfactory results from controlling the vegetation as intended. S. Forest Service to design and execute an experiment evaluating the efficacy of various invasive plant control methods. The experiment is ongoing. The partnership and elements of the program will continue. A draft report outlining the experiment process and results is included with this memo and we're happy to share that. I'll note that this draft report can be shared internally but not yet be made publicly available. The full report may be shared upon completion. S. Forest Service. The following aspects of the experiment were completed: The team identified canopy gaps within approximately 30-acre forested sites. Within the 16 canopy gaps, the team marked 36 randomly stratified 5 millimeter radius sample plots. Each example plot receives one to three invasive control treatments as outlined: mechanically only, mechanically followed by synthetic treatment, treatment mechanically followed by nonsynthetic treatment. And the team has conducted vegetation surveys over the course of the experiment, recorded every species present and their percentage cover. To date, two full vegetation surveys have been completed at each plot. In the summer of 2022 and '23, the team worked with contractors to complete subsequent treatment at each plot, tracking the amount used and the cost. The team is working with contractors to complete synthetic and nonsynthetic herbicide treatments, tracking the effectiveness. Following treatments, each plot was replanted in the fall of 2022 and using one of two planning schemes, traditional high density, oak dominant, biodiverse native plant platelet, modified planting platelet to incorporate hybrid poplars and willows, as the breed to grow quickly, utilizing high shade levels as a cultural control measure. Additionally, in previous years PPR led a demonstration project at Fern Hill Park in partnership with the Philly Goat Project. This project was an experimental design utilizing goats as a mechanical means of mitigating invasive plants. The project yielded mixed results as the goats ate virtually all the foliage, but none of the woody stems of plants. Invasive plants resprouted vigorously. Since the hearing on Bill No. 200425, PPR has posted the signage in advance of applying herbicides. And that's pretty much what we had said the four things that we had done. So this is what has been done and is still being done as a result of the initial bill.
So thank you. Just to follow up on that, we have some experts here who are arborists in the city. They're going to be testifying. I've read the testimony of one of them and I believe his name is Matt Benzie. He mentioned that he's never used this type of pesticide removal ever. And so, the question becomes are we talking to other entities that are doing this, right, other organizations, other experts to see what the alternatives are since this is a heightened problem? You just mentioned, Commissioner, all of the ones that you tried, right, maybe the other people are being successful with other alternatives, right. So what are we doing -- and also, I just want that question for, I'm sorry, to get your name?
AeLin, so since you're a part of this experience, right, can you just comment on as your team work with people like Matt Benzie and other experts or arborists to talk about what else can you do other than this?
Yeah, thank you for the question. So again, I'm a civil servant. I take my role very seriously. It's my great honor to help care for our forests and meadows and wetlands and environment. And so, I am constantly striving to do that job better and to ensure that we're employing the best methods, the best practices. We follow an integrated pest management approach. We look to field experts to ensure that we're constantly updating and reviewing and again doing our work to the best of our ability. And so, yes, thank you for that question. We do talk to others in the industry. We talk to others in the city. One of these studies was conducted in partnership with the U.S. Forest Service. And so, we consult with experts in that department, in that agency to help guide and improve and explore different ways. So that study, I think I can spend three hours talking about all the different elements of that study and ways we're looking at innovative approaches to manage our natural lands, to manage our public open spaces, both with using hybrid trees is one thing she mentioned. So that's something that we would plant early stages in a forest restoration project. These are trees that are designed to grow very quickly. And so, they grow quickly. They'd introduce a lot of shade with the hope that that would help reduce the invasive plant pressure to restoration sites. So that's a technique that we're exploring and trying to understand will it work, will it not. Does it work in different settings, does it work when we have a drought and we don't have any rain for the whole month of October? Does it work, you know, so that's one example of some of the innovative approaches we're trying to look at and understand to help both improve the way we do things and address many of the concerns that you're raising today.
Let me just ask this question: What is the real reason why you're so committed to this type of herbicide removal? By the way, I said the wrong word earlier to say herbicide. Why are you so committed to this one? Are you that committed? Are you committed to doing something different if Council and the experts come up with other alternatives or is it just like this has to be the way?
No. Thank you so much for that question. I want to do what works. I've explored, you know, I've used different organic products. I think -- so from my understanding of my use of those products, they're essentially a chemical mow. There's no difference than going out and using a weed whacker. It's a chemical mow. It only impacts the vegetation that it comes into contact with so it does not kill the roots. It often doesn't kill the twigs, doesn't kill the buds. So all that vegetation can grow back in two to three weeks is what we're seeing, sometimes 17 days. That's what the literature says online. It grows back and you have to do it again. And then it grows back and you have to do it again. And so, to answer your question I'll just say I would love to explore if there's a different product that works. I will investigate that. I will look into that. I will hear what other people's experiences with that is and I would love to incorporate that as much as possible to improve and enhance the way we're doing things. Ultimately, again I opened my testimony to say that I love Philadelphia. I love our natural lands. I am so committed to the forests, the meadows, the wetlands, the natural environment that we have in this beautiful city. Again, I think that every child of Philadelphia should have access to nature. They should be able to go out into the woods and enjoy that space. That's a goal that I think we all share and I'm so glad to be in the room with people who are holding that up as an important thing.
My last question and comment is I just want to say that I want to applaud what you try to do, right, in terms of the entire Parks & Rec Commission to at least, you know, 50 feet away to abide by those guidelines that was left by the previous administration, so you're doing the best you can. But what we're learning is that even the best we can do is not working. So I think that -- Councilman Harrity has some ideas he's going to share during his Q&A about other alternatives that we need to do now as opposed to later. Because at the end of the day, one of the things I'm recognizing and listening to this is that you put a sign up and people are going to do what they want to do. The other part is how do you determine when it's dry enough that people can go into those areas, right? And then the other thing is that people may really want to be anxious to actually go play in the park, in the playground area, whatever that might be. And maybe now all of a sudden you just spray and they just can't go that day but it's the only day they had. So it's hard for us to kind of just put this signage situation and just commit ourselves to signage. I mean, it may have worked before but we're dealing with different levels of children and also different levels of adults. And also, how do you know when it's really dry? Are there lingering things? So those are important.
I just want to add, Councilman Dr. Phillips, it's typically hours is our rule, but we do watch the weather. The trees are under my jurisdiction so we're constantly watching the weather to see, so that's the general rule. I do want to add some of the advocates will propose organic herbicide and we have looked at the labels, and a lot of the same words on the synthetic herbicides you will see on the label, caution, safety, out of reach of children, some of the same words. So we are mindful of that and we typically try to do the spraying during the off hours when the children aren't there. Sometimes we'll come in at 5:00 a.m. And when we can, we do do with (inaudible) labor to do it. We've done areas in every Council District we've done clearing manually. But to AeLin's point, it will come back two to three weeks. One example is where we did it manually, Godfrey Avenue, I think that was three blocks long, that whole wall was covered. We were able to remove those vines, but I guarantee you if you're back there today, it's covered in vine. So we try to do it manually when possible. And I'm interested in hearing what the advocates have to say about how we can do better.
Before I pass it on, I'll just give an example. Let's hire some kids, Parks & Rec summer jobs pulling weeds, $15 an hour, you know. But anyway, my question is have there been any soil samples? Where do you come up with 50 feet? How do you know that that's the thing? Because I know that that's not true. It gets in there. It may dry, but those chemicals are still there. Dry or wet, they're still on the plants. They're still on the things and they're seeping into the ground. It's got to be runoff. You know, construction workers we deal with runoff all the time. I know so much about dirt and soil it would amaze you. Like one square foot of dirt weighs about 200 pounds. So different densities of soil being different things, different densities stuff travels faster, travels longer, further. So are there any studies, and where'd you come up with 50 feet? COMMISSIONER SLAWSON: No, we don't have any studies.
I'll make sure you get some. Councilwoman Nina Ahmad.
Thank you, Chairman. Thank you so much for sharing with us where you are in terms of looking at innovation, right. Many moons ago cigarettes were supposed to help your digestion. We get more information and things change, right. And so, we have to change with the time. So I understand the dilemma of you having to maintain these fields and having it to look a certain way and how you do it cost effectively. But the cost- benefit analysis is what we're talking about here, right. What is it going to cost us in the long run. As you know, the entire world, this is not just Philadelphia's problem. We have a entire globe that is much higher rates of cancer, right. And we know we can trace it back to a lot of these overuse of chemicals. We know this. The question is what are we trying to achieve in terms of a cultural shift of viewing our spaces. The same thing with people who have lawns, right. They have shifted in terms of what a lawn should look like. We have this image of pristine green, mowed lawns that are shaped in certain ways. So there's a culture shift that needs to happen for all of us to have an expectation of what these grounds should look like. Because you mentioned how hard it is to do it any other way but using these chemicals in terms of time, in terms of permanency. But we have to do it is the point. We have to explore and you're doing that. We just have to ramp it up to say that we have to look at best practices that don't employ these chemical methods to maintain our public spaces. It's not easy and I know you have a huge, you know, issue on your hands, but here we are. We are supposed to safeguard our communities and all Philadelphians. As was mentioned, it can dry but there'll be a rain and mobilize things again. Things get into our water system. It's just seeping in everywhere. There's no 14 point in belaboring that it is bad for us. We all know this. Because we can't give protective equipment to children when they're going on it. The workers are getting that, and even then they're exposed. Think about the kids just bare skin rolling on the ground, right. So we need to think differently. And this is the Administration that wants to be bold. We are putting $800 million in housing, but we have to have people who will live in that housing who are not going to be sick. So what is the bold plan? And we're wanting to work with you on what does a bold vision look like in safety in our public spaces. You have to have that innovative look of saying what are the best practices, what can we do and how do we educate the public to have expectations of what it will look like as we are doing this. We know we can't let perfection be the enemy of good, but we have to move forward. So I want to hear from Parks & Recs what is your bold vision for addressing these really dangerous chemicals that we're putting into the ground and the groundwater system as well? Thank you, Council -- I mean, Chair. COMMISSIONER SLAWSON: So we can get together and based on this bill we will come up with a plan. I can't sit here right now and say that I have a plan that I can sit down and rattle off to you because I don't. But we are concerned. The Mayor uses prevention intervention and that's what we're planning to do. We'll come up with a plan. And I just want to give you -- because we looked at some other practices, because like you said, Councilmember, this is a worldwide problem. This is not just a Philadelphia problem and it is something that we're going to have to tackle and it's not going to happen overnight, but it is something that we're willing to tackle. In Portland, Oregon, they identified five city parks where the use of pesticides have been eliminated for a three-year trial.
Pesticides continue to be used at the remaining sites, but they've identified -- so when we're talking about a plan, we need to know that 10,000 acres, we won't be able to attack 10,000 acres all at one time, but we will come up and identify areas where we can do a pilot just like they did in Portland. In New York City, their ban includes exceptions for golf courses, athletic fields, invasive species and plants that present harm or obstruct, so there may be some areas that we may have to say, you know, in order for certain behaviors to continue we may have to say, well, we're not going to do anything here as a part of a plan. Boulder, Colorado, they established a protocol and they have a list of approved, just like you're talking about, approved pesticides we can identify as a part of a plan. What are we going to say is approved and what isn't approved based on having conversations with HOPS, having conversations with you all. In New Jersey, they identified again a few spaces where pesticides did not exist, completely free of pesticides. Other places they continue to use pesticides. So we've been looking at best practices, we've been looking at other cities and we're going to come up with a plan. And it will be initially a pilot because we can't tackle 10,000 acres at one time.
And I would highly recommend you use partners in this, you know, to use thought leaders in this space who have been involved in the best practices. We are a city of eds and meds. Challenge all of us to work with you to look -- but the bottom line is this is just bad, right. That's where we have to start from. I think the pushback saying we can't legislate, we can't do this, that's just noise. That should not be the response from an administration. The response should be we hear you, we know it's bad, we're going to work and we're going to give ourselves a timeline how we're going to do it, here's the plan. We've had a year and a half of this administration. Our Madam Mayor was a Councilmember when this was passed in the previous administration, which it's over four years almost that we have had this, so there needs to be some urgency about this issue. And I know you have many things on your plate, believe me we understand. We need to staff you. We need to make sure a lot of these things are going to be labor-intensive, people-intensive. So be it, right. But we have to understand that this is hurting us. And when something hurts us, we stop it. We look to do something different. So thank you for being so thoughtful and being open to making change. We just have to do it. So I thank you all for your testimony. COMMISSIONER SLAWSON: Thank you for those questions too. And I want to just clarify this Administration is supportive and wants to ensure that we are being mindful of what we're doing in our environment. I just wanted to clarify that. This Administration wants to make sure that we come up with a plan as well and address the challenges that are causing any kind of harm in our communities. And so, we're going to move, we're going to come up with the plan and we definitely -- I appreciate your comments about this is eds and meds. We will definitely reach out. We will get other thinkers to be a part of this process as we're putting the plan together. Thank you for sharing it.
Excuse me, Councilman. Can I add one more thing just to the Councilwoman's comments about rolling in the grass. We don't spray for weeds in the grass. I just want to clarify, not anywhere in our park system, not even the Parkway. And the only place you won't see weeds right now is LOVE Park because it's just recently sodded. But we don't spray for weeds in the grass. That's not something typically we would prioritize.
Okay. Just a point of clarity so you know. It's kind of funny how things work. You just mentioned golf courses. And New York excluded them. New study shows living near a golf course may more than double the risk of Parkinson's disease, which is one of the actual causes of this. It says new research study troubling link between proximity to golf courses and increased risk to Parkinson's disease. It is not just golfers at risk. These findings highlight the dangerous legacies of pesticides used in green spaces and larger risks they pose on students and communities. That's just a point of reference. I don't need you to -- just so you know that things are changing because, as you said, more information is coming to light. Councilwoman Nina -- I mean, Councilwoman Rue Landau and then Councilwoman Quetcy Lozada.
Thank you so much for being here and thank you so much to my colleagues for all of your really informative and passionate testimony. I will say this moment I am once again very happy I'm not a golfer, but that is really disturbing information. I wanted to ask some questions. To me when I heard everyone's opening about how dangerous and toxic the chemicals are and how harmful they are, and to hear from the Administration at the minimum your offer of PPE that includes everything from gloves to masks to boots to what looks like hazmat suits, I actually visualized, you know, kids going out to play in the forest with these things on and that is not what we want our kids doing at all. We want them to be free. I wanted to understand more of what exactly is in your testimony, Commissioner Slawson. These products are vital in controlling problematic vegetation through our parks and have been a part of our land management system for decades. What exactly is problematic vegetation? Do you have a hierarchy of it? Some is worse than others, you go attack some more than others? Do you go in a geographic look? I was very interested and I was already thinking about what does it look like if we just hire young people to pull things out by their weeds and weed all summer long? Is this a round-the- year process that we have? Is it only seasonal in the spring and summer? And finally, I want to say that as someone who's also worked for the administration in the past, I appreciate so much when new leadership comes in or comes back in and says we will come up with a plan. But I want to underscore very much that this seems extremely urgent and I feel like our plans take a long time often, but this one should be -- plans are only as fast as the urgency of the leaders behind them. So I will love to see something come up immediately, including for example let's try 100 feet from where kids are playing, anything that you can think of that is immediate let's do it and start there. So those are my questions. COMMISSIONER SLAWSON: Great. AeLin Compton is going to answer a part of your question and then I'll jump back in.
Thank you for your question. I really do appreciate the opportunity to explain more of what I do and the work that we do. So I work at a natural land setting as I've mentioned, and our forests are very sick. They are inundated with invasive plant species, so species that did not evolve here, they don't have the same level of herbivory so deer don't eat it. They're removed from the usual diseases and pests that might keep those populations in check and in balance. And so, what we have is an imbalanced ecosystem in our forests and our meadows and our sites. And so, it's my job to try to return that balance. And so again, our forests are inundated with invasive plants, which is another term for problematic species. So examples include Mile-A-Minute, which true to its name, grows so very fast it will completely consume a tree within one season. And so, we are losing trees. Trees are dying because of invasive plant pressure on our forests. Our ability to replace those trees, to plant more trees in our sites is completely hindered and dependent on our ability to control the invasive plants within that site. So I would be happy to offer a full list of some of the species that we control. There is no blanket. It's not like every time we see Mile-A-Minute or every time we see knotweed or every time we see mugwort we control it. That's not how we do things. We use a much more targeted, strategic approach. We consider the species, we consider the location, we consider the goals for that location. Are we trying to create a meadow, are we trying to preserve forest, are we trying, you know, what are the ecological goals of that site, how can this system be most functional for the city of Philadelphia. So we kind of balance all of that. And again, I'd be happy to provide more information on the types of species and how we target our approach. And then we look at how we can control that. So if we can use mechanical means, we do. If we can pull it, we do. There are some species you cannot control by mechanical means alone. Again, I'm here today. I'm here to learn. I'm here to grow. I'm here to advance the way we do things so that I'm serving the City of Philadelphia better so that we're preserving our forest better. So I welcome the conversation. I thank you for the opportunity. But to date, there are some species that I've discovered that we cannot control through those means alone. And again, using organics it's essentially a chemical mow. You have to come and do it again, which introduces more chemical to the environment, which introduces more opportunity for risk and contact with those chemicals because they are chemicals. And again -- yeah, so again it's a strategic approach that we utilize. There are so many species in the city of Philadelphia that we need to control. Without that, we will lose our natural lands. They will become acres and acres of vineland, porcelain berry, Poison Ivy , bittersweet, these are species that I work very hard to control every day. And with the resources we have, we are losing that battle. We're doing the best we can but we need more resources. We need more innovative ideas. So I thank you for bringing up this important discussion.
Thank you. COMMISSIONER SLAWSON: So just to share, one of our goals is tree canopy, right. This would affect our tree canopy without a question. We would have less sight lines, more short-dumping. And these are just some of the challenges that we would have as a result of not being able to manage. When we have access to view rivers and creeks, they would be replaced by walls of knotweed. We would not have that, the trails that we are building up. So when we think about our plan and we come up with what we're going to do, we also have to keep these things in mind that community members, that the people that are in Wissahickon, the people that are in West Fairmount Park and East Fairmount Park, that they love so much, depending on how we manage we lose. So we have to come up with that balance. The other thing I wanted to address because we talked about cost and when we say cost, we're not talking about a cost that is more valuable than life. I have grandchildren that play in these parks. So the cost is what does it -- we have to be mindful of what it's going to cost us so we're presenting for budget purposes. We need to know. So when we're talking costs, we're not saying that, oh, it would cost too much for us to manage if we have to change a system. That is never what we're talking about. We have to always include cost because we have a budget that we have to be mindful of. I just wanted to put that out there.
Thank you. We would love if you could provide the list to the Chair, it would be wonderful, of the species that you're attacking and kind of your plan and your geographic way of doing it. Thank you.
And before I pass it to Councilwoman Lozada, I just want to say that other major cities have already done it. They're in compliance. We're on the list of compliance but we are not in compliance. So I would like to look at what they're doing and how they're doing it, because I am absolutely positive that people are still enjoying the parks in New York and LA and Chicago where they're doing this kind of stuff now. Councilwoman Lozada.
That was actually part of what I wanted to ask, right --
It's okay. I'm glad that, Commissioner, you clarified that point, right, that while we want to preserve and protect green spaces, we also recognize that we want to protect the health and well-being of the communities that use these spaces and that there is no cost too high to be able to protect our communities and the residents of our city. So thank you for clarifying that. You mentioned a little while ago that you've already started having conversations with other cities about what it is they're doing. Can you share with us maybe two or three things that they're doing that we should maybe be considering that would help us respond to this important topic? COMMISSIONER SLAWSON: I just only had the information that I shared thus far about New York and New Jersey. That's the only thing we have now, but that's a part of our plan. Finding best practices, that's the beginning of what we do. Pretty much to what you're saying, Councilmember Harrity, what are other cities doing, and that's part of the research that we have to do. And just let me apologize for any miscommunication that has happened prior to this hearing right here. We are supportive of making sure that Philadelphia is safe. This ties right in with Mayor Parker. Safe, clean and green. In the midst of us ensuring that we are using the right products, we're talking about safety but we also have to make sure we continue to keep a green city. And depending on what chemicals we use, we're affecting either our young people, our adults or our entire system. So we have to find that balance. And so, we're going to continue to really look to see what other cities are doing, Councilmember Lozada. I don't have a whole list of that in front of me right now.
Yeah. I think part of the frustration that I've heard from some of my colleagues when talking about this is that this has been a topic of conversation since 2020, right, and we have many of the same people working in the Department of PPR. And so, at what point does someone take it very seriously and start to make recommendations. I recognize that this Administration just arrived in 2024, but this has been a topic of conversation for a really long time. And so, at what point do we decide these are the things that we need to put in place. Maybe there should have been conversations and options offered to this leadership. And so, I'm just trying to figure out why if this is so serious, right and if this is so important to so many people, why are we not further along in the process? I mean, I'm just, you know, I don't understand that. And so, it's a little frustrating that we're still looking at options, that we're still having conversations, that we're not changing how we do things. And I think it's part of government, right. For a long time government has been used to just doing things the same way for a really long time. And so, looking at kind of taking the off-road and doing something different I think has been challenging for government and the City of Philadelphia for a really long time. And so, I'm glad that you are at least having conversations with other cities and trying to figure out how to move it forward. I just hope that in our next session or a year from now we're still not having a conversation about what are the actions and how do we decide how we're going to continue to preserve and protect green spaces and residents that should be able to use these spaces in a healthy way. Thank you. COMMISSIONER SLAWSON: Thank you.
Thank you so much for those comments and those questions. It really resonates your vision. I just want to say that we do continue to search for better ways to do what we do. Unfortunately, I have not found that magic bullet approach that will solve all of our problems and meet all of the needs of our city and the land that we are tasked to steward. So it's our job to care for these lands for current Philadelphians, for future Philadelphians, to preserve and make sure that they remain available and remain functioning and doing the things that we need. And unfortunately, as we continue to learn and we continue to talk to other cities, there is no single magic bullet approach that will replace this really critical tool that -- it's one tool in our bag. We do many, many different ways -- we control invasive plants in many different ways, but we have not found one catch-all amazing approach. But again, we're here to learn. We're here to continue to learn. I do want to say that we are doing our best and working very hard to try to implement new strategies and implement innovation, but we continue to use these pesticides, because like many of other cities across the country who continue to use pesticides, there are certain situations, certain species, certain environments where it's the cleanest, safest, best method to manage that land.
Thank you for that, but I would say cleanest and safest for who. Thank you for your testimony today. Before I dismiss you, I'm just sorry that you're actually not going to be here to hear some of the testimony from the experts and some of the testimony of the people who are suffering with the results of this kind of stuff. But I'm glad you're leaving people here and staff will be here to give you the information. If you noticed, I didn't ask a lot of questions. This wasn't about me trying to come out -- this is about us trying to get answers to work together on how we make the city safe for our children and for everyone to play in the parks. My hope with this is that we're going to come up with some more ideas. We're going to come up with more conversations, more bringing people in to be included. Because to me, there is no miracle. We're always looking for that magical cure. It doesn't exist. We either have to invest in something more expensive or switch to organic or something around those lines. There's not going to be that miracle that's going to come out. If it does, I can guarantee you it's going to be worse than the one you're using. So there's a lot of things I would like to see. There's a lot of things I'm going to bring up as a result of this. Some to your union about the way they are doing the spraying, what training should be given to their members in order to do this kind of stuff. You have three people. God bless you. I get it. It's not a lot of people, but we're subcontracting this stuff. And the other idea is to make sure that these subcontractors are following the rules also. I kept this hearing very low because I didn't want it to turn into a spectacle of people in here shouting. And I have to commend all the professional speakers and you. I asked them not to pack the room 12 with people because I wanted to actually hear the information. I wanted to hear what you guys had to say. Ms. Slawson, I know you. I think I know your heart and you're in this and I know you want to do what's best for the citizens of Philadelphia. So I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt because I know what kind of person I think you are, and I think that you have a heart. And I know, like you said, you have kids, and whatever we can do, we should be doing no matter the cost. Anyone have anything to say before we dismiss this panel?
Well, I want to thank -- thank you. I would like to thank you all for being here and I apologize, I had to step out for another meeting, but I really look forward to working together to resolve this matter and to make sure that we have, as the bill intended, healthy outdoor public spaces because we're not there yet. And I think we can get there. So we really want to work with you, work with the advocates and just make our spaces healthier because we all want to use them and we all want to use them without concern. As the Commissioner knows, we do our summer event series which is getting ready to kick off. We're in our parks, our rec centers, our playgrounds and we need for them to just be healthy public spaces. So thank you so much. COMMISSIONER SLAWSON: We are committed to work with you, to work with the community. The Mayor uses that PIE, prevention, intervention and enforcement. We want to prevent anything that we're using that's going to cause any harm. And the way we do it is to intervene and to identify what's happening in other cities and what we can do. And then our goal is our plan will be able to enforce what we put in place. So we're definitely here to work with you. We're not going to drag our feet on this. It's not going to -- next year you will not sit here and we haven't moved.
Well, I am going to make an ask which is that we meet on a much more regular basis. So I know we had the hearing back in 2000 or 2001 or whatever and we're having a hearing today, but I'm going to ask the Chairman if we are able to meet on a regular basis, have a hearing maybe like a quarterly update so that maybe at the end of the summer we can have an update and just stay on top of this issue so that it doesn't just go away. But maybe, Mr. Chairman, we could have another hearing in September, October and then early in the new year and just keep the conversation going because that's the way I think we're going to make progress. COMMISSIONER SLAWSON: Thank you.
I agree and I thank you for your testimony. And, Ms. Buck, also thank you for all your years of service and thank you for what you're doing for our parks trying to keep the green spaces. I'm a big green guy. Everybody knows. I'm a gardener, you know, so I appreciate being here as a person that's boots on the ground actually doing the work to give us your testimony and your feelings. I just ask you to please, please be careful out there and don't play around with this stuff. Thank you.
Thank you for your time. COMMISSIONER SLAWSON: Thank you very much.
Mr. Kunkel, will you please call the next panel of witnesses to testify.
Linda Stern, Poune Saberi, Francie Rubin. (Witnesses approached witness table.)
Thank you all for being here today taking time out of your schedule to come in here and help us get through this. Please state your name for the record and begin with your testimony.
Thank you. Dr. Linda Stern. And good morning and it's still morning, yep. Thank you for providing me the opportunity to offer testimony for the public health and environmental bill introduced by Councilmember Harrity. My name is Dr. Linda Stern. And most of my medical career was served at the Philadelphia Veterans Affairs Medical Center as a primary care physician and researcher. I treated many veterans who were exposed and sickened by the herbicide Agent Orange. The Philadelphia Parks Department still sprays the herbicide 2,4-D, which is one of the two active ingredients in Agent Orange for weed control on our playgrounds and parks. 2,4-D has significant health risks, including non-Hodgkin's lymphoma, multiple myeloma and Parkinson's disease. It's associated with DNA damage and hormone disruption that can lead to birth defects, cancer. Additionally, the Parks Department sprays literally tons of glyphosate, the most widely-used pesticide on the planet. Strong scientific evidence, overwhelming evidence, shows that glyphosate is dangerous to humans, especially young children, pregnant women and the workers who apply them. The World Health Organization determined that glyphosate is probably carcinogenic. And the University of Washington study showed that glyphosate increased the risk of non-Hodgkin's lymphoma by more than 40%. And that review of studies included one with 54,000 people who had jobs applying the pesticides. Let's be clear, there are no established safe levels of herbicides and children are uniquely vulnerable to the health effects of that exposure. And children age 6 to 11 have higher levels of common pesticides in their bodies than adults. A Harvard study published in pediatrics determined that there was an increased risk for leukemia from herbicide exposure during childhood. Children exposed to herbicides during pregnancy have higher risks of developing brain tumors. Mothers exposed to glyphosate have an increased risk of spontaneous abortions and shortened pregnancies. We know in particular in Philadelphia that pesticide exposure can both trigger and is a root cause of asthma. Overall U.S. asthma prevalence is only 5.8%, but in Philadelphia it's 21%. And children exposed to herbicides during their first year of life are more than four times more likely to be diagnosed with asthma before the age of 5, and Black children are three times as likely to die from asthma as White children. Unfortunately, this common practice that we've talked about of allowing 24, even 72 hours to pass before allowing play on fields when pesticides have been applied is not sufficiently protective. These chemicals can remain in the soil for many weeks, even months. In closing, I nearly demand that you enforce the law. I feel like I'm preaching to the choir here, but it's a moral imperative. And just think, if it was your child diagnosed with leukemia, if it was your friend or brother who applied the herbicides developed non-Hodgkin's lymphoma or if you had the misfortune like I've had of watching a teenager die of asthma in the emergency room, I know you would be demanding that we stop spraying and find the safe alternatives that we know exist. Thank you.
Sure. Good morning. My name is Alexis Franklin and I'll be reading testimony on behalf of Dr. Poune Saberi who could not be here today. Thank you for the opportunity to provide testimony today regarding Bill No. 250397, introduced by Councilmember Harrity. Five years ago as a long-term Philadelphia resident and a physician specializing in occupational and environmental medicine, I submitted testimony about harms of pesticides to human health. At that time, the joint testimony was with a long-term colleague of mine, Dr. Julie Becker. This past February she unfortunately passed away. She died from the side effects of the treatments for three different types of cancers that she suffered from. In her lifetime she fought tirelessly to educate and illuminate the connection between chemicals, chiefly pesticides in our environment and terrible terminal diseases like cancer. She and I expressed grave concern about the overuse of pesticides in Philadelphia's public grounds. It is sad to speak to the same issue five years later despite the passage of the bill in a city that claims to be green. It is also sad that my colleague never saw the fruits of her efforts. My experience is in studying and practicing how environmental impacts our health as individuals and communities. In the past five years, numerous cases have been brought forth against the use of glyphosate and other pesticides. Chemical companies have been accountable and made to pay. Harmed people have gotten justice for their suffering, but they never got their health back. Many of these chemicals build up in our bodies and in the environment, and the effect is termed cumulative exposure. This cumulative exposure may have been more severe effects on certain groups of people like children because they spend more time playing outdoors, drink more water and are closer to the ground. It is unfathomable to think that the Administration of the city would have protected us, the residents from an additional five years of chemical build-up, but they chose bureaucracy over what was legally our right and morally the right to do. Many of the scientific research has shown that the health impacts of pesticides to skin, eye, lungs, brains and nervous system, blood and circulation, pregnant women and their infants and the hormonal system. Outside of these city walls, science is met with skepticism. It's a sad day when even the city wall's science does not have sanctuary. It bears emphasis that the efforts of Councilmember Harrity to hold this hearing are appreciated. The Healthy Outdoor Public Space law was passed five years ago. The city now must enforce it and reduce the harm to our community and residents. Thank you.
Good morning. Thank you for the opportunity to provide testimony today regarding Bill No. 250397, introduced by Councilmember Harrity. I am Dr Francie Rubin. I'm a veterinarian and previous owner of the Rockledge Veterinary Clinic just outside of Northeast Philadelphia. I've been a veterinarian for 31 years. My Veterinary Association, the AVMA, reports that in dogs die of cancer every year. Almost 1 in 2 dogs over the age of develops cancer. These 9 are alarming statistics. When I 10 walk my own dog during the summer and spring, I can smell the lawn chemicals that many of my neighbors have applied. I see the little, almost invisible signs that companies like TruGreen leave on the lawn. I often experience burning in my nose and throat. I hope that you will support -- I hope that you will support enforcing the law that bans the use of these dangerous chemicals in your public spaces and set a precedent so that I can start a movement in my own community. Our children and our pets, helpless beings, deserve our efforts to protect them from the potentially toxic effects of these very dangerous chemicals. Thank you.
Mr. Kunkel, are there any other people to testify on this panel?
No, okay. I'm going to open up for questions starting off, as I said, with my colleague Cindy Bass who was the originator of this bill. I just have to say that. I'm just piggybacking off of her legislation trying to figure out why we haven't figured this out yet. So please, Councilwoman Bass.
I just want to say thank you ladies for being here and for your very powerful testimony, speaking from experience, speaking from your personal -- giving your personal stories related to just these chemicals, the effects that they've had and around what you've seen and what you know. I think that there's nothing more important and more valuable when we do public testimony than to hear it straight from "the horse's mouth, but straight from your mouth," so that people can really understand it's not just us sitting here testifying. It's not just what we think. You all are the subject matter experts in this matter. And so, we just want to say thank you so much for being here and for your very powerful testimony today.
Thank you. Dr. Stern, thank you for your testimony. Your testimony states that Philadelphia Parks & Rec still sprays herbicides two to four days. How many veterans would you say you have treated with exposure to this herbicide? And you can give us a rough estimate. And your testimony states health risks that most of us are unaware of, such as cancer, Parkinson's disease and also mentioned DNA damage and hormone disruption. Can you tell us more about these?
Yeah. Let me start with 2,4-D and glyphosate are both considered endocrine disrupters. And I won't give too much basic medicine, but we need our hormones for growth and metabolism. And when they're disrupted, everything goes haywire. And including DNA, our genetic material gets destroyed, gets disrupted. We have to remember what's the role of herbicides. Herbicides are designed to disrupt and destroy life. They do it very well. And when they were first discovered, we thought they were safe because what they end up doing is disrupt -- one of the mechanisms is to disrupt the bacteria in our guts. So even though it might not hurt human cells, it hurts bacteria. And we are learning more and more that we cannot be healthy without a healthy microbiome. In terms of how many, gosh, I'm sorry I don't have exact numbers for you but I'll tell you this: The U.S. government -- I worked in comp. and pension for a while. And the U.S. government recognizes 14 diseases, and the list keeps growing actually, caused by Agent Orange. And anyone with exposure gets compensation. And you'd be surprised, it's just not, you know, we hear a lot about the non-Hodgkin's lymphoma and leukemia, but other things are soft tissue tumors and neuropathy and diabetes, even heart disease because of the many mechanisms these herbicides have. It's complicated and it's like pulling a thread out of a fabric, but they're exquisitely dangerous.
Yeah. I can also testify my father is 100% disabled from the military, but he gets way over 100% because he was hit with Agent Orange. And every time, like you said, the list of diseases and symptoms and causes that are caused by Agent Orange, which this substance is derived from, is already known, it has been known. We have case studies. Look at our Vietnam vets. Look what we did to them. So I thank you for your testimony. Any of my colleagues have any -- Councilwoman Rue Landau.
Thank you so much. I just want to jump in to repeat your amazingly chilling statement that you just said, that herbicides are created to disrupt life. I think that's going to stick with all of us for the rest of the day. Thank you all so much.
All right. Thank you for your testimony. I appreciate you taking your time and coming here and we look forward to collaborating with you more. You guys are the boots on the ground, your medical doctors, you know, we need to take what you say with the, you know, as knowledge. And the fact of the matter is the reason I haven't asked a lot of questions and I have a lot of them is because I want my colleagues to get their questions out. I know what this stuff does. I'm trained to know what this stuff does. So I appreciate you today and I appreciate you taking up your time.
Mr. Kunkel, will you please call the next panel of witnesses to testify.
Lisa Bonitatibus, Nasir Johnson, Kris Soffa, Amy Stephen, Kacy Gao. (Witnesses approached witness table.)
Hello. Thank you for coming here today to share your experiences and your story. Please state your name and begin your testimony. We're going to hear everyone's testimony. And then if we have any questions, we'll answer them after everybody gives their testimony. Thank you.
Good morning. My name is Nasir Lewin. I'm a year old -- 8 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: 9 Talk into the mic. 10
I'm sorry. 11 Again, good morning. My name is 12 Nasir Lewin. I'm 19 years old and 13 a senior at PA Cyber High School. 14 I graduate in July. Thank you for 15 the opportunity to testify today. 16 I grew up playing 17 basketball at Lonnie Young Center 18 on Chelten Ave. When I was 14, I 19 started to feel short-breathed when I played basketball one morning. I woke up with a bruise on my face. It came out of nowhere. My mother was concerned and took me to a doctor. It turned out I had leukemia. We don't know if it was an environmental cause or not, but I spent the next months at 4 St. Christopher's Hospital getting 5 treatment. I went through 45 blood 6 transfusions and 9 operations. I'm 7 glad to say I've been in remission 8 for three years now, but I lost a 9 year and a half of my life. 10 We don't know for sure, 11 but if there's any chance the 12 herbicides sprayed on the courts to 13 control weeds causing my cancer 14 there is no good reason to keep using them. I wouldn't want anyone else to go through what I've gone through. Please make sure the law is followed and that dangerous synthetic herbicides are not used on any parks. We need to protect other kids. Thank you. (Applause.)
Good morning. My name is Lisa Bonitatibus. I'm a co-founder of Toxic Free Philly, an active park supporter and a long-time volunteer for Parks and Recreation, specializing in restoration at the Schuylkill River banks. You may remember me from outside City Hall at the rally for a fully-funded Parks and Recreation. I was the one wearing a bee costume. Thank you for the opportunity to testify today for Bill No. 250397, introduced by Councilmember Harrity, in support of the enforcement of the Healthy Outdoor Public Spaces law. 12 years ago I was diagnosed with Stage 3 breast cancer, now Stage 4. And look, we all have someone in our life who's living with cancer and we know firsthand how it can break increasingly younger families through terror, loss, bankruptcy. I don't need to tell you that, but I can tell you that most oncologists will say the cancer was not your fault and don't blame yourself. It was just bad luck. I don't believe that. My surgical oncologist tells it like it is. She says that my kind of breast cancer, estrogen receptor-positive, by far the most common type, comes from endocrine disrupters like herbicides. I was the first in my family to have cancer. What makes me different from the rest is environmental factors, which include diet and lifestyle, over which we have some control, but most importantly, the many synthetic endocrine disrupters coming from petrochemicals found in plastics, cosmetics, clothing, household products and, yes, herbicides. 63% of all breast cancers are caused by endocrine- disrupting chemicals like 2,4-D and glyphosate. My doctor explained to me the bucket theory of health, that our bodies are like a bucket that can fill up with insults. We just need to keep the bucket from spilling over because that's when disease happens. Most of an herbicide spray misses the target plant and harms the air, water, soil, nontarget plants and animals. My oncologist says emphatically we should not be spraying. We know what the people want. We passed the law and the clock is ticking. Let's enforce this now before anyone else is harmed. Thank you.
Okay. Good morning. My name is Amy Stephen. Thank you, Councilmember Harrity, for calling these hearings and for the opportunity to testify. I wanted to thank Councilmember Bass also for sponsoring the original legislation and getting it made into law. I volunteer as a trail ambassador in our parks. I've helped lead native plant restoration the way AeLin was talking about for over 10 years as a volunteer in other parks and I founded the group Toxic Free Philly. One day I asked a worker at my rec center how they controlled the weeds around the tennis courts and the basketball courts. And the fellow was very, very nice and he said, oh, I have to get out there and spray some more glyphosate. And I was like, oh, well, you don't really have to do that, it's fine, it's fine, I'm not complaining. But here kids were playing, leaving their sweatshirts, their backpacks lying on the ground at the edge of the court and then they put them on when they leave and they're literally bringing home toxic herbicides on their bodies totally unbeknownst to them. I've known Nasir for many, many years and I think about him when I see this situation. Philadelphia took a big step towards correcting this problem when you passed the HOPS law in 2020 unanimously. Thank you. But the City is not following the law you passed. Workers and the kids and the public are still at risk. Every year since the law was passed literally tons of these prohibited herbicides have been applied in violation of the law. I want to draw your attention to that map over there on the poster. Each blue icon on that map represents a park that was treated with a toxic herbicide in violation of the law, each of those blue dots. org and look at that map. It's interactive. And if you click on any of those blue dots, you can see the park, what was applied, when, how much, by whom. We also did a more detailed kind of analysis in a written form that you have in your packet that goes through it. I invite you to please just take at least a look at it. It's a lot to comprehend. But the basic bottom line is that each year since the law has been in effect between 13 and 16 tons of pesticides have been applied in violation of the law to our parks. And about half of it's in that native plant stuff that AeLin was talking about and then half of it's just along fence lines and ball fields where really mechanical removal is completely possible. The contracts would need to be renegotiated. The other thing about this law is that it includes an advisory committee. I know that the Health Department is willing to run that advisory committee. They've been very cooperative. And that advisory committee would oversee waivers. So if there really is a critical need, as was expressed by Parks, your law provides for a mechanism to give an exception through a waiver, but it doesn't allow it just to be done willy-nilly or because -- I know it's not willy-nilly, but just to be done because somebody thinks it's necessary. It has to be kind of proven that nothing else would work. You have that in your law. The law also requires reports to be issued. No reports have been issued. All the information we got we had to beg -- we had to go through a right to know. And most people don't have this information. We've put it on the website, but the City hasn't published it. I really encourage you not to take any excuses. Many other cities across the country have similar laws, but they've made real progress. When you look at what they've done, they've trained their staff in mechanical removal and other nontoxic products. They have renegotiated contracts to mechanical removal and they've cut their herbicide usage by 50%, 60% or more. We haven't cut ours at all in the time this law has been in effect. Thank you again for holding these hearings. I really put my faith in your leadership and I know this Administration cares, but we need to enforce the law and not just have it slip down the road. Thank you so much.
Thank you. Please state your name for the record and begin with your testimony.
My name's -- good morning or good afternoon. My name is Kris Soffa and thank you for the opportunity to speak today on 250397. First of all, we are deeply grateful to Councilmember Harrity for holding this hearing and also to Councilmember Bass for making the Healthy Outdoor Public Spaces law, the HOPS law. I'm a democratic committee person in the 21st Ward, a former co-chair of the 5th Police District Advisory Committee and a proud former member of the Parks and Recreation Commission. We've been misled before about DDT, cigarettes and now glyphosate. I believed the lies and I even taught others to use it. I had it in my garage. And now, after a lifetime of service to my community and the land I've been diagnosed with three different types of cancer. And my doctors at Fox Chase have asked that the City enforce the HOPS law, and they shared some pamphlets that you have in your collection for your constituents if they come and ask you for help. So it breaks my heart to think that I trusted what may have harmed me and possibly the other people that I worked with. But now that we know the truth, how can we keep spraying these toxins in places where children play. It's preventable harm and a violation of public trust. And someone recently called this a moral humiliation for Philadelphia and I agree. So let's face the facts. You have -- well, especially during National Gun Violence Awareness Month, this is an image of a gun and a weed sprayer. So the weed sprayer nozzle may not make the headlines like a gun barrel, but both of them carry the power to harm. Guns kill loudly and quickly. Herbicides kill silently and slowly. Both are deadly and both are preventable. So as we prepare to celebrate Philadelphia's 250th birthday what better legacy than a city that's truly clean and green, but that must mean that it's toxic- free. Thank you.
Please state your name for the record and begin your testimony.
Thank you for the opportunity to speak today. My name is Kacy Gao. I will be graduating from Drexel University in a few days and I founded and led Toxic Free Philly Drexel, a student org focused on reducing environmental toxin exposure through campus and community advocacy. I first joined the broader toxic-free Philly movement during rallies calling for increased funding for Parks & Rec to kickstart the transition away from the routine use of toxic herbicides on our public lands. On my campus, I also noticed unmarked spray zones, groundskeepers who could have been using better protective equipment and students relaxing on treated lawns. With a team of other passionate student advocates, I led the charge to transition Drexel to organic green space management. After the initial one-year pilot, groundskeepers were able to bring organic turf care campus-wide without a budget increase, after witnessing increases in turf lushness. And by the way, organic land care is not just organic herbicides. It's improving soil health so the turf and the native plants can naturally out-compete weeds. Other institutions within the Re:wild Your Campus network that have gone organic see decreases in weed growth and cost savings within five years of implementation due to increased soil health. Drexel's grounds director has talked about how working the pilot gave his team the confidence and self-sufficiency to phase out herbicides they knew could be harmful. Thanks to my team and the readily-available consultants we worked with, PGC Organics, Osborne Organics, Drexel became the first university in Philadelphia and all of Pennsylvania to go organic, joining institutions like Harvard and other top schools across the country. If students and campus grounds keepers can make this kind of change, so can the City of Philadelphia. Enforce the HOPS law, protect our parks, our health and our future. Thank you. (Applause.)
Oh, I'm sorry. I was waiting for the next person to testify. Thank you all for coming in here today and sharing your stories. Very inspiring but very upsetting knowing that stuff like this can be avoided. Man, thank you for coming. You made me cry, dude, you know what I mean. It's very touching and you were playing something that you enjoy and you may have gotten sick because of it. It's not right. years old, you 16 got your whole life ahead of you, 17 and I'm glad to see that you're in 18 remission and you're doing well. I 19 wish you well in your life. (Applause.)
Do any of my colleagues have any questions for this panel? (No response.)
Thank you for sharing your story. And this isn't over. You've heard this panel here. We're all concerned about this. We all have children, have grandchildren now. Not trying to go through this again in another four years. So I thank you for what you're doing. I thank you for coming down. I thank you for keeping up even though it states that we are in 100% compliance. And if it wasn't for the fact that it was brought to my attention that we weren't, I would have thought just like everybody else because we were on that list that we were one of the cities striving forward. But that is not the case. So I thank you for sharing your testimony. I thank you for coming out and appreciate you. We are now going to break --
-- quickly echo something that Councilwoman Rue Landau stated. We're going to continue to monitor this and we're going to continue to monitor the situation and work with Parks & Rec to ensure that we do some better safety measures and hopefully we get a report back to you. Thank you.
All right. Thank you. Appreciate you coming in again. Thank you for being here. Mr. Kunkel, are there any other speakers scheduled for public comment?
Okay. I would like to thank everyone who came out, our witnesses, for joining us today. If the Clerk will read the list of written testimony to be added to the public record.
Providing written testimony for the public hearing is Dr. Sarah Evans, Dr. Ken Spade, Jay Feldman, Linda Knapp and guidelines for pesticide use on construction sites provided by Laborers Local 57.
Thank you for that. Thank you, Mr. Kunkel. Before we conclude our public hearing on Resolution No. 23 250397, are there any closing remarks from members? (No response.)
Seeing none, this concludes the business before the Joint Committee on Labor and Civil Service and Parks and Recreation today. Thank you everyone so much for your attendance. (Joint Committees on Labor and Civil Service and Parks, Recreation and Cultural Affairs concluded at 11:55 a.m.) C E R T I F I C A T I O N I, hereby certify that the proceedings and evidence noted are contained fully and accurately in the stenographic notes taken by me in the foregoing matter, and that this is a correct transcript of the same. __________________________________ TANEHA CARROLL