m. - - - RES. 970558 - Authorizing the Council's Committees of Licenses and Inspections and Law and Government to conduct an investigation into the Section 8 Housing Program. - - - PRESENT: COUNCILMAN DAVID COHEN, Chair, Law and Government COUNCILMAN JAMES F. KENNEY, Chair, Licenses and Inspections COUNCILMAN ANGEL L. ORTIZ COUNCILWOMAN JANNIE BLACKWELL COUNCILWOMAN HAPPY FERNANDEZ COUNCILMAN RICHARD T. MARIANO COUNCILMAN MICHAEL A. NUTTER COUNCILMAN FRANK RIZZO COUNCILWOMAN JOAN L. KRAJEWSKI COUNCILWOMAN MARIAN B. TASCO COUNCILMAN FRANK DiCICCO COUNCILWOMAN ANNA C. VERNA COUNCILWOMAN DONNA REED MILLER - - - VINCENT VARALLO ASSOCIATES, INC. Registered Professional Reporters Eleven Penn Center Plaza, Suite 600 Philadelphia, PA 19103 (215) 561-2220 I N D E X RESOLUTION 970558 PAGE Kirk Brown, Member, Dickinson Street Neighbors-- Dorothy Moody, Member, Dickinson Street Neighbors------------------------------------ 20 Felicia Adams, Member, Dickinson Street Neighbors------------------------------------ 21 Maria Perez, Member Dickinson Street Neighbors-- 26 Lynne Rotoli, President, Mayfair Civic 7 Association---------------------------------- 55 Dr. ) RESOLUTION 970558 PAGE Dennis McCarthy, Real Estate Broker------------- 332 Asia Coney, President, Tenants Improvement Council-------------------------------------- 347 Corlis Gray, President, Queen Lane Tenants Council-------------------------------------- 347 Charles Reeves, Director, Grays Ferry West------ 348 Leo Bazzoli, Board of Directors, Kensington Independent Civic Association--------------- 367 Don DeMarco, Representative, Open Fund for the Future of Philadelphia----------------------- 379 Wade H. Lockey, Citizen------------------------- 387 Anthony Lewis, Managing Director, Housing Association of Philadelphia------------------ 395 - - - 4 RESOLUTION 970558 CHAIRMAN COHEN: The joint Committee of Law and Government and Licenses and Inspections is called to order. Notices were properly published. There is a quorum present of both committees. To my right is Councilwoman Joan Krajewski. Next to her is Councilman Mariano; Council Frank Rizzo; Council James Kenney, who is chairman of Licenses and Inspections Committee, the other Committee, together with Law and Government. I am David Cohen, Chairman of the Law and Government Committee. To my immediate left is Councilman Ortiz. To his left is Councilwoman Blackwell. To her left is Councilman Nutter. And then Councilwoman Tasco, Councilwoman Fernandez. And Councilwoman Verna, the majority leader of the Democratic Council, is in her seat, as is Councilman Frank DiCicco. We have far more than a majority of City Council that are here today for this joint meeting. I am going to introduce Councilman Kenney, who has a short statement to make. 5 RESOLUTION 970558 CHAIRMAN KENNEY: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. CHAIRMAN COHEN: Just before you do, where is the clerk of the Committee? Wanda, would you read the title of the resolution?
Resolution No. 970558, authorizing the Council's Committee on Licenses and Inspections and Law and Government to conduct an investigation into the Section 8 housing program, its Administration, the condition of Section 8 residential properties, the responsibilities of landlords to provide appropriate maintenance and services for their tenants, and the overall effect of this program on the quality of life for Section 8 tenants and their families. CHAIRMAN COHEN: Thank you very much. Councilman Kenney. CHAIRMAN KENNEY: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. And thank you all for coming here today. I would like to open up today's hearing with a brief statement. 6 RESOLUTION 970558 Over the past few months, and especially during the last few weeks, there has been a great deal of discussion about the federal Section 5 8 Housing Program. Some of this discussion has been very informative and constructive, and some of it has not. Our purpose here today is to be as constructive as possible. We are not here to trash the Section 8 program or to gather testimony based on emotion and misguided fears that will only inflame the embers of an already simmering fire. The Section 8 program has helped thousands of American families in need since 1932, and it should continue to do so. But like any government program, there are some problems. And we are here today to listen to your suggestions and complaints about these problems and, working with Mayor Rendell and the Philadelphia Housing Authority, find workable solutions to solve many of these problems. Before this hearing starts, I want to be perfectly clear about one thing. Some will come before us giving testimony with ulterior motives in mind. 7 RESOLUTION 970558 They may paint the Section 8 program with a broad brush in an ugly attempt to polarize us as a city and prevent people of lesser income from living where they choose. I will remind those individuals with this intent that this type of activity is wrong and blatantly illegal. And I, along with the other members of this Committee, will not allow this hearing to be used as a forum for any misguided addenda that attempts to tear us apart, rather than bring us together to find workable solutions to this and many of our problems. I thank you all for coming today and for your attention and for your cooperation in making sure that this hearing, some positive things come out of it to help everyone involved. Thank you. CHAIRMAN COHEN: Thank you, Councilman. I am going to call on Councilman Ortiz, who has been working very hard with Councilman Kenney over a period of time on Section 24 8. Councilman Ortiz. 8 RESOLUTION 970558
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Over the last few months a debate has started in this city that has attempted to blame all of the ills that happen in a neighborhood on residents and people who live in Section 8 programs. Obviously the problems of a neighborhood are much more complex, much more extensive, and much more directed and caused by other situations, rather than people who are in Section 8. Section 8 has been a program that has worked, has worked in this nation for over 50 years, since 1932. We have had a program that has taken people from being poor, and, through integrating them into other neighborhoods, have allowed them to integrate themselves into the middle class and been able to formulate their families and lead a very, very good life. Today Section 8 is being used wrongly. It is becoming a code word for things that we thought we had transcended over decades of 9 RESOLUTION 970558 struggle for equality in this nation. We need a program that can integrate poor people into the mainstream of society. We have tried to cluster people into segregated ghettos of poverty and projects, and that has failed. Section 7 has worked. 8 Are there some bad tenants? Of course there are bad tenants. Are there bad landlords? Of course there are bad landlords. Do we need to fix certain things so that program works better? Of course there are certain things that need to be done so that the program works better. That is what this hearing is all about. This hearing is about what can we do, as we listen to people, to make the program work better. It is not to come in and try to destroy or cast aspersions or make charges or claim that a certain group of individuals cause problems that they do not in fact cause; it is to work towards a resolution and see where the problem lies. It is government that can fix it. It is a government program that can work, because it 10 RESOLUTION 970558 has worked. And I believe that we in this city can come to a very fair conclusion and make Section 5 8 what it should be. If PHA is not doing the work that it needs to do, we have to make sure that PHA sets those instrumentalities in those systems that will make the program work. If landlords are doing and block-busting and going ahead and destroying and using Section 8 for their own benefit, economic or otherwise, we have to make sure that those landlords are taken out of the program. Because they do not benefit the neighborhood and they do not benefit the person who is on Section 8. Let us not blame the victim. Let us not put the blame on those individuals who are trying to better themselves. Let us begin this discussion as to how we can do and make this program function much better than it has. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. CHAIRMAN COHEN: Thank you. The two statements set the tone that 11 RESOLUTION 970558 we hope witnesses whom we are very glad to see here today follow. But this is an open forum. We have called this meeting together so that we could hear. And from listening, the City Council and the Mayor can make recommendations with respect to the program. The program is a national program. And the agency that enforces the Section 8 program in the first place is the Philadelphia Housing Authority. Now, we are told that there will be representatives of the various city agencies here to listen to the complaints, so that the city agencies themselves can go to work. For example, one of the many charges is that License & Inspections has not done the proper job of inspecting, hasn't issued the proper number of violations called for by the conditions that exist. These are all things we want to hear about, and so we welcome all of you to participate fully. The first group of witnesses we're 12 RESOLUTION 970558 going to hear from are a group that we're going to call, in general, the Dickinson Street Neighbors. They are going to tell us about their experiences with the program. CHAIRMAN KENNEY: Mr.
Chairman, if I may, just for a matter of background, these neighbors are from the 400 block of Dickinson Street in South Philadelphia. In discussion on your testimony, I would just advise you that we don't need to be specific about the address of the property involved, but just the general issues that you would like to raise. And we, Councilman DiCicco and I, attended a community meeting recently, and were in one of the homes of the neighbors and had an opportunity to meet this group of people, which is a multi-cultural and multi-ethnic of people that are very important to South Philadelphia. So with that background, I would like to allow the Chairman to allow the testimony. CHAIRMAN COHEN: I would like to add one other thing to what Councilman Kenney said. If there are names of people or 13 RESOLUTION 970558 addresses that seem to require attention, we would prefer, instead of names and addressed being used at this hearing, with perhaps charges that may later be found to be unfounded or founded, require corrective action, instead of giving their names out publicly here, I am going to ask -- Wanda, would you stand. Wanda is a staff member. We would like at the end or during the course of the hearing, please go over and give her the information, the names of the people, the addresses, and a general nature of the problems. And the City Council will accept responsibility for initiating the investigations that are going to be needed to determine whether corrective action is needed. And if corrective action is needed, we are going to work very hard to see that correction takes place. Go ahead, sir. Will you identify yourself for the record? This will be for all witnesses. When you testify, begin by giving your name and your organization, if you represent an organization. 14 RESOLUTION 970558 And please, because while this room 3 looks a bit fancy and what they say ornate -- whatever ornate means -- the amplification system is terrible. And that means that for you to be heard -- and we want everybody in the room to hear all of the testimony -- you have to bring the microphone as close to your mouth as is possible; otherwise, you won't be heard. So we are urging everyone. The reason you are giving your name is that the testimony is being recorded, and the record has to show who is speaking at any given time. Thank you. Please proceed.
My name is Kirk Brown. I live in the 400 block -- CHAIRMAN COHEN: You are going to have to bring your microphone much closer and speak with some force.
My name is Kirk Brown. I live in the 400 block of Dickinson Street. And I would like to start off by saying that on my block we have African-Americans, 15 RESOLUTION 970558 Irish-Americans, Italian-Americans, Asian-Americans, Lauisian immigrants, Polish immigrants, Cambodian immigrants, Vietnamese immigrants, and Hispanics. We have Muslims. We have Jews. We have Christians and Buddhists. We have lawyers, actors, house painters, hat makers, retirees, business managers, cooks, migrant field laborers, and others. We have got dogs, cats, and birds; athletes, invalids, and all points in between. By now you should have an idea that this is one of the most diverse blocks in Philadelphia. It is a living example of what Philadelphia means. This is a street in the Pennsport Dickinson Square area of South Philly, just between the Italian Market and the riverfront. This is a place where more movies have been shot than people. This wondrous, strange assortment is currently being tested by a government program that was designed to do what so many communities refused to do, integrate. This is Section 8. This is a community ripe for the failings of a misguided government subsidy that has 16 RESOLUTION 970558 become the scourge of many other communities. When you find a neighborhood that is relatively old and urban, with single-dwelling homes of retirees, many of whom are settled and uncomfortable with the thought of following their adult children to suburban sprawls, juxtaposed with multi-unit dwellings, occupied by renters who express little or no concern for their properties, the mix can be disastrous. This is particularly painful for the elderly, already feeling abandoned by their former neighbors who have opted to fly, rather than fight. In other instances the original occupants of a property have passed, and the current owners, having no intention of living in the area, see an opportunity to gain guaranteed above-market rental income from Uncle Sam. Too often this is a cleverly veiled scheme for many well-off individuals to use the housing needs of the poor to enrich themselves. I originally rented the unit I now own and have been incensed by the pattern of abuse I have observed in neighboring properties. This is an area where zoning codes 17 RESOLUTION 970558 will allow homeowners to reap windfalls from the taxpayers' purse -- which, if I am not mistaken, is empty -- through the Section 8 program. For the slumlord it is an excellent opportunity. For the misbegotten Section 8 tenant, it is a delight to live in a property that is partially paid for by the government. And if your third or your fourth isn't paid, the chances of eviction become slim because there is no place left for you to go. For the Section 8 tenant that plays by the rules and hopes to maintain a clean and comfortable home for his or her family with the temporary assistance this program was designed to offer, the schemers have siphoned all hope. At the outset I mentioned how diverse my block is. And I mentioned it because, lately, I have seen tenants' rights groups play the race card with respect to the Section 8 housing issue. They ought to be ashamed of themselves for continuing this sham. (Applause.)
The problem is, quite simply, the unwillingness or the inability to 18 RESOLUTION 970558 conform to acceptable standards of community living. And education on how to live in a neighborly fashion is sorely missed. Perhaps a mandatory in-service for all Section 8 candidates on community etiquette could temper the situation. Once again, the lack of education is the root of the evil. I convened on Monday, October 20, to discuss this, as well as some other matters, with my neighbors and were pleased that we had Councilmen James Kenney and Frank DiCicco, along with Officer Loviccio from the 3rd District to attend. They offered us a great deal of hope and guidance. or more neighbors, representing 17 all occupations, gathered. This included a couple 18 of Section 8 tenants and their courteous children, 19 proof that Section 8, indeed, has participants that 20 are model citizens. My neighbors and I have always welcomed everyone --
This included a couple of 19 RESOLUTION 970558 Section 8 children and their courteous children proof that, indeed, Section 8 has participants who are model neighbors. My neighbors and I have welcomed everyone. It is only those residents who scream profanities at the children, exceed occupancy regulations, disturb the peace well beyond respectable hours, and who continuously express belligerent behavior towards others that are responsible for part of this crisis. Unfortunately, on our block this describes a Section 8 tenant. The balance of blame must go to the unthinking bureaucrats -- none of them present -- and their patron slumlords. Additional culpability rests with communities that hold the power and clout to block mixed-income housing, which has been an effective means of easing the plight of the poor. We need solutions, not studies; understanding, not lip service. A centralized grievance committee to effectively address the bad-neighbor issues could go a long way towards resolving the Section 8 problem. Because it is 20 RESOLUTION 970558 always the few who ruin it for the many. With centralization, the problem tenants could be identified, educated, and, if necessary, eliminated from the program. The 1-800 number would be a simple, effective tool to follow the abusive patterns of the few. I thank you. (Applause.) CHAIRMAN COHEN: Is there anyone else from your group who is going to be speaking? Because we would like to hold the questions until everyone that's going to speak has spoken.
My name is Dot. I live right next to the Section 8. CHAIRMAN KENNEY: Excuse me, Dot. You have to give your last name for the record.
Moody. I am not a moody person, though. But these people are very, very belligerent. Now, I had an argument with her a few weeks ago. And the cop that came was a black cop. 21 RESOLUTION 970558 She is a black woman. And he said to me, "It is going to get worse for you, instead of getting better." And it is getting worse for me. They make fun of me walking, which I have a spine problem, and they tried to hit me with a car. So I know it is going to get worse in the summertime. But I don't know what else to do.
My name is Felicia Adams. I am from 3rd and Dickinson; they are 4th and Dickinson. So we are not in the same block, but we are neighbors. And just about everybody in the next block, and attending their block meeting, I got to meet Kirk here. I feel I have to go after her. And I feel like I have to go after Kirk. Because I think I can speak for a lot of Section 8 tenants and recipients who are good neighbors. I am the block captain. And I am a Section 8 tenant; I am not a homeowner. So it is like how can a Section 8 tenant be a block captain if she is not a homeowner? 22 RESOLUTION 970558 Well, I am a block captain because I saw that a lot of things needed to be done on my block. And I went to the neighbors and I knocked on their door one morning, and I said, "Get up, get dressed, come out, sweep your block." And a lot of the tenants -- (Applause.)
A lot of the tenants got up, came out, and swept the block. And from there, we have had an organized flea market. We are trying to organize the 300 block and the 400 block. We are trying to get the 500 block included, so that we can do things together. I have nothing but good things to say about Section 8. I was in need; they helped me out. And, in return -- not saying that this was requested of me -- but I do my part of being a good neighbor to those who could have rejected me, you know, but they didn't. And they're helping me. Like I said, I am the block captain. I go around, inform the neighbors of, "This is the day you put your trash out." 23 RESOLUTION 970558 When we had that blizzard, the 300 block of Dickinson was one of the only blocks in South Philly that was cleaned. Not by the city, but by the residents. I don't have a car. Why should I go out there and shovel, when I don't have a car? But myself and my two children, who were and at the time, got out and shoveled. We helped our fellow residents dig their cars out so they could go to work. So what I'm saying to you is, I'm a good neighbor. I am a Section 8 tenant, but I am a good neighbor. My landlord, I praise him every single day. Thanksgiving is coming up. I can thank this man. If something goes wrong in my property, it is repaired. Recently there is an empty lot on the corner of 4th and Dickinson. It was weeded for a very long time. From the moment I moved in there three years ago, until this past month, the weeds were up here. I organized to get it cleaned up. I 24 RESOLUTION 970558 got the owner's permission of that lot to clean it up. He gave us permission. He said we could clean it up; we cleaned it up. He said we can put flowers on there; that's what we are going to do. We want to put a mural up on the wall. Since my landlord owns the property where the wall is, I went to my landlord and I said, "This is what we would like to do." He says, "Felicia, do you mind that mural being on your wall?" Now he says my wall, because I am a tenant. He has a lot of respect for me. He treats me respectfully, just like I treat his property respectfully. I said I didn't mind. He says, "Well, then, do what you want." He says, "If you need it in writing, just call me back up and I will put it in writing." Now, this is a good neighborhood, working with a good tenant, who has an excellent landlord, who takes care of his property. (Applause.)
All the problems people are talking about, I don't know what you are talking about. 25 RESOLUTION 970558 And I get really, really, really upset and hyped when I hear -- like that inflammatory article that was in Sunday's paper pissed me off. I wanted to burn the paper. And other inflammatory comments about color and stuff, it just -- it angers me. It angers me. Now, the other Section 8 tenant in the other block, I am new to hearing about this. I wasn't aware of her. And I said to them, what could we do as a community? I don't think the answer is kicking her out of our neighborhood. Because we could be sending her to someone else. I don't think the answer is necessarily making it a bureaucratic, mandatory issue or statement or idea that we have to go through some kind of training. Because I am a good resident. So why do I have to go through training to be a good resident? But I think the answer is in the landlord, the tenant, the community, and the government all working together to make it a RESOLUTION 970558 peaceful situation for everybody. That's how I think. I could be wrong. CHAIRMAN COHEN: Thank you very much. (Applause.)
You are not wrong. CHAIRMAN COHEN: Give your name and go right ahead.
My name is Maria Perez, and I live in the 400 block of Dickinson, too. I am a Section 8 resident for over ten years. And we are having problems in the community with drugs, with housing, with everything. And I am not here to criticize nobody. I am here to stand by those that believe in the law, and they want to follow it. I got a grandson that he is 5, and he just went to school. Now, he is attending in the same room, in the same school with these kids that just moving in the block. The kids come to my grandson and say, "Because you Puerto Rican and we are other 27 RESOLUTION 970558 nationality, you have to move. We just moving in the block. We are not getting out." And he is only 5. He come to me and say, "Mom-mom, why we have to move?" I say, "No, we don't have to move. We have to work together and work on these kids to come into the neighborhood and be part of it." The kids come and knock on my door and ask to play with my grandson at the end of the summer. I watch them. I let them play. I feed them juice and cookies. And then the kids, they don't want to be involved. The kids say they just moving in the block, we have to move. I don't see why tenants, that we are living in the block for 10, 11, maybe all life, like this lady here, we have to pack us up and move and let them come and take over. I don't think it is fair. Thank you very much. CHAIRMAN COHEN: Thank you. Anyone else who is going to speak? Thank you. Councilman Kenney. CHAIRMAN KENNEY: No, sir. 28 RESOLUTION 970558 CHAIRMAN COHEN: Councilman Nutter.
Yes. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The gentlemen who started the testimony, I am sorry I didn't catch your name.
Kirk Brown. I get the impression from the testimony and from some information that I have that there are two Section 8 properties on the 400 block of Dickinson; is that correct?
I have no idea how many Section 8 properties are on the block, per se. There are two that I know of, but there could be more.
Quite frankly, I don't care that there are more. And I only say that not because I don't have an answer for you, but because I don't care if a person is Section 8 or not Section 8, so I don't make it an issue for me. It is behavior. And if that behavior continues and is 29 RESOLUTION 970558 fostered by a Section 8 program the taxpayers cover, then I think that I should feel comfortable coming to City Council and hoping that there can be some resolution.
I appreciate that. I am trying to understand, though, the start of your testimony. Did you seem to indicate in your testimony that there were Section 8 participants who were exhibiting some inappropriate behavior on your block?
Okay. And what do you do on your block if non-Section-8 people exhibit the same behavior?
There would be an approaching of the owner of the property, if they themselves are the owner of the properties. If it is direct belligerence, then it is 911.
Some resolution. The largest issues have been with the children and the way we have observed their treatment. I understand that the organizations that come to rescue kids like this, in the situation, have been informed about it, but they don't consider it their priority. Apparently there are more serious situations in the city that require their limited attention. So it is a tough nut to crack, I know. But if, in fact, it is continuing repeatedly because an owner, a property owner, is bringing in tenants that exhibit the same behavior repeatedly, then I think the problem may rest with the owner.
How many problem properties do you believe you have on your block?
And are either of them the two folks that are at the table?
No. No. There are no 25 problem tenants here at the table. 31 RESOLUTION 970558
The reason I asked the question is because the PHA records seem to indicate that there are only two Section 8 properties in the 400 block of Dickinson Street. And your testimony is that the two people who occupy those properties are at the witness table.
Okay. I apologize. So it sounds like you may have some Section 8 tenant problems, but it sounds like you may have some non-Section-8 problems.
I should tell you, Councilman, that there are a lot of times when you 32 RESOLUTION 970558 have problems with a neighbor, it could be passing, and you don't give it -- it could be a passing problem.
In the sense that it may happen once in a while. We all have problems.
But when it is a repeated problem, from the same party, it needs to be addressed. And the best thing for me to say to you is that I would not be taking the time to come here now if it were not an enormous problem that may worsen because it involves children. And that's largely why I am here. If it was just someone playing their music too loud at a certain hour from time to time, it is not worth your time and trouble. But this is a serious situation. And because it is something that we have all observed, and something that we all have to endure, that I am hoping that this might make a difference.
Okay. I mean, do 33 RESOLUTION 970558 you think that there are, I guess, different rules of behavior or there should be a different response from the government based on the behavior of people, determined by whether they are a participant in the Section 8 program or not?
I personally think that if a person is receiving this type of assistance from the government, from the taxpayer, then they should, at minimum, behave in accordance to community standards. (Applause.)
And the people who are not receiving the benefit, whatever it may be -- there are various types of benefits --
Let me finish the question. If you are not receiving the benefit from the government, then you can do whatever you want to do?
I think you are saying if you are not receiving subsidy from the government, you can behave -- you have a license to be rude and belligerent to your neighbors. 34 RESOLUTION 970558 At some point you have to say that there may be some cultural issues about the way people treat their neighbors, about the way they treat their children, about the way they treat their properties. And if that stems from coming from an environment where you do not have direct responsibility for your property, then it shouldn't be dismissed; that's what I'm saying.
Okay. Thank you. CHAIRMAN COHEN: Just before Councilwoman Fernandez, could you tell us what government agencies you went to with respect to the problems from the children?
I have called abusive centers. I have called the police. They came down one night, and the kids were in the house by themselves and they had locked the door. This 15-year-old was supposed to be watching them. Now, they locked the door and they were all the way down the street, this kid. When the cops got there, they had to 35 RESOLUTION 970558 go find this child to get in the house with these three little kids by themselves. Now, suppose they would have turned the gas on and started the fire? That would have been my problem, too. I mean, this lady just don't want to listen to anybody. Now, the Section 8 investigator came down to me last week, and we have been talking to him. He wants to find out, the guy that lives with her has a car. And he wants to find out the number of the license number. Because this guy just got out of jail. We don't know what happened, where it happened, what happened. But this is the -- the man wants to find out who the captain of our district is, so he can get in touch with him. CHAIRMAN COHEN: May I just ask one question?
But this has been going on for over a year. CHAIRMAN COHEN: Did you contact any of the city agencies, like the Human Services Department or the Health Department. 36 RESOLUTION 970558
Yes. I tried. But they said it was no abuse. There is no abuse. CHAIRMAN COHEN: That is an an area that we would be --
She can talk to her children the way she wants to talk to them. And every word that comes out of her mouth is MF. CHAIRMAN COHEN: All right. Thank you. Councilwoman Fernandez and Councilwoman Krajewski.
Thank you, Councilman Cohen. Mr. Brown, these are hearings where you can help us understand both what the problem is and then what might be some ways to resolve it. And I am trying to separate out what might need to be resolved on your particular block, which would depend on all the facts on your particular block. And, you know, since it involves DHS, the Child Abuse Unit, that might be a different issue than Section 8 housing as it relates to HUD and PHA, Philadelphia Housing Authority, that's 37 RESOLUTION 970558 supposed to supervise these units and landlords, if I am correct. Do you have any recommendations to this Committee in terms of what you think ought to be done that might affect not only your neighborhood, but other neighborhoods?
I am glad you asked that, Councilwoman Fernandez. Because I want to tell Felicia that the type of behavior that she exhibits is the type of behavior I expect from everybody. It is not -- as I said, it has nothing to do with Section 8 per se. It just happens to be that there are repeated incidences in at least two of the Section 8 houses in the community and in the house that is across from me, that I can witness on a daily basis. That tells me, in all fairness to the program -- which I think does a great deal for a great deal of needy people. But, in all fairness, it tells me that there is a pattern in some instances with Section 8 and the way they screen or do not screen certain tenants. If the funding is so limited and the 38 RESOLUTION 970558 need is so great and the waiting list so long, it seems to me abusive that there are people in the program who do not deserve it the way Felicia does. And that's what I'm hoping can be the type of change. So if it means that the Section 8 community or the Section 8 organizers can say, this is a program that is very limited, and we are only going to bring, allow in, those who will behave by community standards, then that to me is an improvement. So that you don't see the type of nightmares that we have been witnessing, and you don't have them in the types of communities that we have been witnessing. (Applause.)
Do I hear you saying you think there needs to be -- one would be screening people before they come in?
And the second step would be removing someone who turns out to be an irresponsible or destructive tenant once 39 RESOLUTION 970558 they were there?
Have you taken any steps, do you know who to turn to, to pursue that line of action in the case in your neighborhood?
I am completely out of the loop. Because I thought Section 8 was a federal program. But I am receiving some information that the responsibilities have been given to local authorities. So I don't know if I should be communicating with my Congressman, I don't know if I should be communicating with my Councilman, or if we should be communicating with our neighborhood associations. If all of them, at least on this issue, can come together and say, that's the crux of the matter, getting folks who are not behaving in accordance to community standards off the line, so that it creates an opportunity for someone that does deserve, so that's what I'm hoping can be the resolve. 40 RESOLUTION 970558 But I want to say that if we are, as neighbors, trying to do the best that we can, and we are the ones who have not run from the city, especially when we have the opportunity to -- I mean, some are so frustrated that they don't have a choice. My concern is that this is a house, a particular problem house, is a house that has young kids in it. Those young kids are going to duplicate what we are experiencing from their parents. If it is not going to change -- I mean, where are they going to go? You have got kids. Are we going to send them to another neighborhood? Are you going to send them to some other community? It has to change there. It is not about saying, "You can't live here." It is about educating people to say, "This is what you do as a neighbor." And what you do inside of your own home is your business. But, as a neighbor, these are simple rules that make this place better. I am hoping that we can start that type of dialogue so that Section 8 can reformulate how people can get on the Section 8 program. 41 RESOLUTION 970558
Thank you. CHAIRMAN COHEN: Thank you. (Applause.)
I wanted to find out, as a homeowner, what rights do we have? None. Everybody told me none. (Applause.)
None. I am there 34 years. And I have to move or take stuff off of this woman for the rest of my life? No way. No way. I can't live like this. CHAIRMAN COHEN: And you have been given the wrong advice. As a homeowner, you have many rights. And this hearing involves, among other things, those rights. You ought never be subjected to the kind of abuse that, you know, is being talked about from those two homes.
Everybody I asked said -- CHAIRMAN COHEN: And that's what we're working towards. Councilwoman Krajewski. 42 RESOLUTION 970558
Thank you. First I want to ask, is there anyone here from the Philadelphia Housing or the Administration? CHAIRMAN COHEN: Is there anyone here from Philadelphia Housing Authority?
The people came down here with questions regarding Section 8. There is frustration out there. They have no one to talk to. They are coming down to Council, but no answers are here. CHAIRMAN COHEN: Is there anyone here in the audience from Philadelphia Housing Authority? I am told that the Mayor has advised the Philadelphia Housing Authority not to be present today. I cannot understand why he gave that advice.
But this is such an important issue. CHAIRMAN COHEN: I agree with you.
Councilwoman, 43 RESOLUTION 970558 Helena Dixon from PHA is here.
Is she the proper person we can address these questions to? Can she make decisions? What can she do about them?
Well, she can take it back, but Mr. Purnell is the proper person. And the key situation is, Mr. Purnell and the Mayor have agreed that they will come down after this. They will come down, we will have a record of what is going on, what are the questions. And the Mayor and PHA have committed themselves to a date very soon, right after we recess this hearing, to be here to answer all of the questions, to begin putting forward whatever plan and what recommendations we have.
So, in other words, Councilman, we are saying this was all in vain with the buses?
No, I don't think so. I don't think it is in vain, Councilwoman, because I think this is going to be reported. It is a very different atmosphere 44 RESOLUTION 970558 than has been reported in the Inquirer. Because what the Inquirer and the Daily News have put forward about Section 8 have been very inflammatory, has been only one side, and has only given the viewpoint of a very small percentage of the citizens of Philadelphia. (Applause.)
We are trying to set a record, as Miss Felicia has stated, of what Section 8 really is and what the problems are. It is not in vain. If it were in vain, I would not be here. I wanted the Mayor to be here. I think the Mayor should be here. I think PHA should be here. However, to me, the important people that we have to listen to are the citizens who live in neighborhoods and the residents of Section 8 that are here. And I want to hear from them, and then we will deal with PHA, we will deal with the landlords, and we will deal with the Mayor.
We also have, Councilman, people who feel that Section 8 is 45 RESOLUTION 970558 a bad program. (Applause.) CHAIRMAN COHEN: We are going to hear from them.
My question is, what can we in this Council do to help the people who have problems with Section 8? It is destroying every neighborhood in the city. Look at the map here. The people -- (Applause.)
-- the people who live in the red marks should be up in arms. Now they are moving slowly, the whole entire city. We have no neighborhoods left. We have to do something about the Section 8, but I refuse to sit here if we don't have anyone from PHA or the Housing Authority or Mr. Kromer. What about OHCD? CHAIRMAN COHEN: Councilwoman, it is the belief of this --
I just blew 46 RESOLUTION 970558 a fuse. CHAIRMAN COHEN: Councilwoman, it is our belief that City Council has a very important role to play in overseeing these other agencies. Based on the information we get here today, it is my view that City Council will take action to enforce the changes that may be necessary --
In what way? CHAIRMAN COHEN: -- to get rid of these abuses. Well, we have budgetary power over a number of the agencies.
Councilman, we have questions about the criteria. How do they apply for Section 8? CHAIRMAN COHEN: This is the first hearing, Councilwoman. We will deal with that. We will be dealing with all those things. We may not cover it all today.
Will we be able to go to Congress? CHAIRMAN COHEN: Yes. 47 RESOLUTION 970558
Will we be able to stop it? CHAIRMAN COHEN: Congressman Fattah that is going to be here at this hearing very shortly.
First of all, I think we should have a million taxpayers march to Washington. (Applause.) CHAIRMAN COHEN: Go ahead.
My name is Felicia Adams, yet again. You are talking about -- and these are my neighbors, too. And I was at their block meeting, held by their block captain. I was invited by an invitation. When they brought up the issue of this problem, Section 8 tenant, I said to them, "Did you go to Section 8?" When they brought up the issue about the children, I said to them, "Did you go to DHS ?" I brought all this up. It is not just a problem with Section 25 8. In the 300 block, there are owners on my block 48 RESOLUTION 970558 who live in their property who do not sweep, who do not shovel, who -- (Applause.)
-- who, when I first walked on that block, allowed their dogs to defecate on my property. I had to go out there and clean it up; they did not clean it up. These are owners. These are landlords who own other properties on this block. Okay? These are people who are taxpayers, who pay their mortgage. And just because they pay their mortgage, they are supposed to be better than me? I don't think so. (Applause.)
So what I am saying to you is, what I'm saying is, it is not a question of whether it is a Section 8 tenant or whether it is a homeowner; it is people, period. That's the bottom line. It is people who do not take care of their property, and then there are those that do take care of their property. CHAIRMAN COHEN: Excuse me. 49 RESOLUTION 970558
This is the thing, this is my suggestion, and this is how I try to handle it as the block captain. We go to the Philadelphia More Beautiful Committee, we go to City Hall, we go to anyplace we have to go to to get the brochures. You all print so many brochures on what a homeowner is supposed to do, on what a tenant is supposed to do. The Tenant Action Committee gives it out to you. I have gotten stuff from Section 8 myself on what you are supposed to do and what you are not supposed to do. So the information is out there. The information is there, if you want it. And because I want it, I went and got it. There are people who refuse to go get it. These are my fellow block captains -- I mean, fellow residents because we live 300, 400. We are in the same area. I am a good tenant and there are other good tenants. The information that they need 50 RESOLUTION 970558 is out there; it is just that it is not getting to them.
No. No, I am not ruining the neighborhood. And like he said in his address, in his testimony where he said the resident with her two beautiful kids, that's me. Everybody in South Philadelphia, in our area, know my two kids. I mean, I can walk down the street and they say, "Hi. You're Mark's mother," because my son knows absolutely everyone. We are a benefit to the neighborhood. And what I'm saying is not just Section 8 tenants who can be a benefit to the neighborhood; it is homeowners. Because like I said, on my block alone, 300 block, as the block captain, I know of homeowners who are landlords to properties who do not take care of those properties. I hear complaints from their tenants, and they ask me what I can do. And I try to find out the information for them. 51 RESOLUTION 970558 It is just not a Section 8 problem.
This is not a Section 8 problem. Bad neighbors are bad neighbors, and they come in all colors. (Applause.)
And I just want to put something straight. Federal subsidies are federal subsidies. An individual that is a Section 8 gets a federal subsidy. I get a federal subsidy; I have a mortgage. That mortgage is tax deductible. That is a federal subsidy. (Applause.)
That is a federal subsidy. So a federal subsidy is a federal subsidy, whichever way you want to put it up. CHAIRMAN COHEN: And everybody in this city has a right to live peacefully and to be able to enjoy the possession of their home, whether it is an owned home or whether it is a rented home. And no one should ever get the answers that were given to this woman when she called for help. The city exists for the purpose of 52 RESOLUTION 970558 helping people that need help. And every way, whether they are homeowners or tenants -- and we would like you to go see Wanda, who stood up before, at the end to give her some more details on what you talked about. And we want to be assisting you. City Council has a job that very few people know about. That job is an oversight job. It is our duty as Council members to see to it that all of the city agencies do what they are supposed to do, provide the kind of services that makes living in Philadelphia something we can enjoy, rather than suffer from. And that's why we are holding this hearing today. We thank the Dickinson Street Neighbors very much for their questions. We are going to have to bring on other witnesses. We have a very tight time schedule. But we thought that the example set by the Dickinson Street Neighbors is an outstanding example of how the community gets concern, begins to deal with the problems it has. We want to be of service to you, and we intend to be. Thank you very much. (Applause.) 53 RESOLUTION 970558 CHAIRMAN COHEN: Is Congressman Fattah in the room yet? Is State Representative Curtis Thomas here? They are due in very shortly. Councilwoman Blackwell would like to make a statement.
Thank you very much. Upon reviewing the map that's behind me -- in fact, at a glance -- it would appear that my district, the 3rd District, has more Section 8 tenants than anywhere in the city. Let me say this -- and this is why I was really, really concerned about having hearings -- Section 8 was designed to enable people to live anywhere they want. It is a federal subsidy, because of these harsh economic times, to give people a break. It has nothing to do with who you are, how you are, what your moral feelings are, what your religion or ethnic background is. I find it very, very dangerous in getting into -- in fact, I was really concerned about having hearings in the first place because of 54 RESOLUTION 970558 those issues. People are supposed to live anonymously in neighborhoods, and that was the design of the entire program. And that is what we needed to do, especially during these harsh economic times. And let me say that there are many, many, many reasons why people have problems. And as has been said back and forth behind me at the table, we get complaints all the time. But problems are based not on whether or not you are on Section 8, but we have neighborhood and community problems overall. So let me say that, certainly, I have and always will support any subsidies that allow people to live in neighborhoods, to live decently in neighborhoods. And let's be very, very careful that we don't send the message back to Washington that we want somehow to threaten this subsidy. We just can't afford it. I don't know what we are going to do. We can't put everybody in a shelter. (Applause.) 55 RESOLUTION 970558
So let's be very, very careful about how we handle hearings. Because this is a program that is designed for and does help people. Thank you. CHAIRMAN COHEN: Thank you very much, Councilwoman Blackwell. Lynne Rotoli, the Mayfair Civic Association. We are going to ask, in order for everyone to be able to hear, it is very important that there be no second conversations going on at the same time. It interferes with the very difficult amplification. Miss Rotoli, we are glad to see you here. Please identify yourself for the record, keep the microphone as close to you as is possible, real, real close as mine is to me, and go ahead.
My name is Lynne Rotoli, R-O-T-O-L-I. I am with the President of the Mayfair Civic Association, and here as a representative of the people of Mayfair and some of the people from the Northeast. First I would like to commend our 56 RESOLUTION 970558 Dickinson Street friends for a wonderful outlook on what can and cannot be done and what should and should not be done. They were wonderful. (Applause.)
Councilman Ortiz said that this program is working throughout the nation. But I am here to say, Councilman, that it is not working here in Philadelphia --
-- for the people in the Northeast that I am representing. And I would like to read these few pages of information that we have gotten. CHAIRMAN COHEN: Please go ahead.
We understand that the Section 8 was set up to help the needy, and that's great. When I get older, I hope there are ways of helping me if I am in need. Or even if I were widowed or something, I want to know that the government is there to help me, too. And we appreciate that. The problem with this program as we 57 RESOLUTION 970558 have seen it and as what has been told to us firsthand is that the program in Philadelphia has been not accountable for monitoring any of the actions of the owners or the tenants or taking into consideration the community at large. We feel that this program right now has become a free-for-all from what are our observations. As a representative of the people, we have listened to many, many complaints about the program on all sides. We are afraid that the Section 8 embodies everything that we, the middle-class people, fear. And that is the unfairness of we the middle children paying for -- holding the entire economic burden of this type of program, with little or no proportionate help from the upper or lower socio-economic groups, whether it be in terms of money or in terms of help in aid to your community. This is purely an economic issue. And I would like to say that very loudly. An economic issue through and through. But make no 24 mistake about it, it is a serious issue. We are trying to help bring a change 58 RESOLUTION 970558 to the Section 8 program in order to bring about economic equity, while living a peaceful existence with all of our neighbors. With due respect now, I would like to submit to you the two programs that we have been able to ascertain, the two problems about this program that we have been able to get from the people in our neighborhood only that we represent. CHAIRMAN COHEN: Please go ahead.
First of all, it is money. The first one is money. Fair market values, which are the economic determinants of the amount paid to owners, are surveyed on all of the people in the Philadelphia counties, which includes the pricier Bucks County and Montgomery County, Delaware County. And this escalates rents in Philadelphia and makes it more attractive for people to have rental properties in Philadelphia; while the suburbs, it makes it less attractive. And there are -- we don't know the percentage of those out of Philadelphia, but it is not as attractive for owners to want to have Section 59 RESOLUTION 970558 properties outside of the city. Also, in Mayfair, our properties taxes have increased and been reassessed, while the amount that we can sell our properties for is decreasing. While that's not a Section 8 problem, it is a rental problem. What's happening is, we have witnessed rising rental properties throughout our neighborhoods. And we fear that additional property, rental properties, may hold to its decline. And I am trying to explain this is what a fear is, and this is something that may be addressed. Many neighbors are choosing to flee. But in our area, many people are contractually obligated to stay in Philadelphia, or we just love the area.
Excuse me. Could you go back? Because I didn't understand the bit. You are talking about the taxes may cause people to flee?
That's a possibility, too. 60 RESOLUTION 970558 We are not saying that people are fleeing just because of this one program. But we're saying, with the culmination of other kinds of things that are happening in our city, our property values are declining, while the taxes are increasing. It is an incentive to leave an area. These are the people we don't want to leave the area. We want to keep them here somehow. So in looking at the Section 8 program, trying to help it and change it a little bit, that may be one reason we may be able to keep them here in Philadelphia. The first problem, as I said, was money. The second problem is a stake in the community and appreciation for the community at large. We have seen the property owners, who have disposable income to invest in these rental properties, rarely, rarely live in their rental properties. Cries have come for many generations about the decline of the generation, but the abundance of drugs and the abundance of crime is not decreasing in our area. 61 RESOLUTION 970558 At a time when communities must rely on their own residents to volunteer to maintain the area in terms of Town Watches and civic associations, little leagues and church organizations, where are these non-residential property owners? The same question can be posed of the renters, who, as we have experienced firsthand, tend to keep to themselves and rarely become an active part in the community. Once again, the burden of maintenance is on the homeowners, who in many cases have more than one job per household and very little spare time. We listened to our Dickinson Street friends who helped shovel snow. That's what we need. It is not, "I was out there helping"; it is you just do it because it needs to be done. That's the kind of community that you need to build in order to strengthen the areas.
Excuse me, ma'am. I don't mean to interrupt you. Can I just ask you one quick question?
Finally, no one has recognized the needs of the community at large, which was also said by our friends in the Dickinson Street group, in discussions that surround this whole entire issue. We ask that, along with recognizing the rights of owners and the tenants, that you also recognize the rights of the community at large. Sensitive need has to be made to the owners and the renters as you discuss any way that might aid this program. And if I can take two more minutes of your time, we have come up with solutions. And that's the one thing I would like to give to all of you. CHAIRMAN COHEN: Go ahead. We would like to hear your suggestions.
Okay. Well, thank you, sir, Councilman. 63 RESOLUTION 970558 We hear about a General Fund. I am sure that this is public record everywhere, except that we haven't been able to see it in the past few weeks. We wonder what this General Fund is all about. It seems as though monies get lumped into this group, this fund, and no one -- everybody gets pulled off of this, and then Council votes that a little piece gets put here. And besides the general funds -- I don't know monetarily what money can come from that for help, but we would like to take a look -- CHAIRMAN COHEN: The General Fund is the main budget of the city. It provides the financing for all regular city departments. There will be public hearings probably beginning sometime in February, running through to the end of March, in which the public can come, express its views with respect to financing. In the area we are talking about, public housing does not receive any city funds; it is a federally operated program. The federal government provides the money for Philadelphia housing, just to bring it at hand. 64 RESOLUTION 970558 But the General Fund, in your home, if you keep your own personal records, it is from where you would pay all of the day-to-day expenses.
The living in Philadelphia fund, though, would that also come from the General Fund or is that something -- CHAIRMAN COHEN: I don't know what that fund is. Living in Philadelphia fund?
Well, that's at the very end. CHAIRMAN COHEN: You will have to talk to me separately about the existence of that fund. It is not a city fund.
I would be very happy to. We would like to propose that we work and vote together with other government officials to change the fair market values to reflect an area, whether it be a zip code or a county or -- not even a county, because each area gets its own rents; that might be a viable solution. We ask that you impose a community, just like the people from Dickinson street, impose a level of community service that is paid back by both 65 RESOLUTION 970558 the owner and the tenants who are benefitting from the program. If the owner doesn't have the time, but does have the money to give back, maybe a 6 percent -- if you are receiving $800 in rental fees 7 from a Section 8 property, maybe 10 percent of that 8 per month could be put into whatever community group 9 they would like to put it into, and this way they 10 are doing their part. If there is no money involved, if there are services that can be offered back to the community. If it is a tenant, ask that they work within their community X amount of hours. If in that same $800 rental, 600 of it is being subsidized, then whatever the minimum wage is divided by that $600, might be put 12 hours per community service. Communities would welcome that kind of help. That's part of being part of the community. And that's part of the problem, as we stated in number two. We asked that -- 66 RESOLUTION 970558 (Applause.)
-- in keeping with that possible solution, we ask that you require affidavits from the people who are benefitting from the program that be signed by the local community groups, just like they do in the local high schools and other youth groups, where we give back to the community. We are asking that people, somebody give something back to "we the people" who are supporting this program. We ask that when you are giving incentive to builders, when builders are incentivized to build new housing, that a fair and equitable market rate be set, that these rates be published so that the taxpayers can see them, the formula be published, along with the conclusion and the names of the people who made that decision so that we know. We know where to vote, what to do, who to talk to, who to call, who we should address with any kinds of problems that we have. We ask that you, our City Council, organize a Section 8 reform panel that includes 67 RESOLUTION 970558 community members from all the communities so that we may be able to help this situation. (Applause.)
We ask that -- and these are solutions, possible solutions. We ask that a five-year time limit be placed on the ownership of Section 8 certificates. We don't know how they are monitored, but we had this one woman, who I would gladly hire in a second, as an administrator who comes out and she gets people together to do her area. We think that during the time that recipients are on Section 8 certificates, that there should be some training involved with that on house maintenance or marketable job skills or resume building or other items that might help them be productive in the future and may help them produce productive Philadelphia. (Applause.)
We ask that abandoned homes throughout the city be revamped through other kinds of funds that may be gained. Maybe the owners, in their money that they give back to the communities, revamp homes 68 RESOLUTION 970558 within a given area. Now we get into the spot inspections, and this is the ending. And these are -- we ask that internal spot inspections be made at Section 8 properties to monitor both the owners and the tenants. If a tenant does not allow for entrance into their home -- and I know we are getting into the Constitution right here, but there is a law enforced in Wildwood, New Jersey, called the Three-Knock Rule. They get three opportunities to allow someone to come into their home for inspection. The fourth time, -- don't know what the exact rule is that doesn't violate Constitutional rights, but there is something that allows the right for the owner to come in and look at his own property, or to allow the governing, subsidizing body to come in and be able to ascertain that this money is being spent properly and carried through. We ask that you try to get a rule somewhere along the lines that will help the owners and the tenants live in the best of circumstances. We ask for a limited amount of houses 69 RESOLUTION 970558 that be rented in a given street, in a given neighborhood, owned by a slumlord, owned by a landlord who is not taking care of their properties. We ask that calls be made bi-monthly, every six months, to the tenants and the owners to make sure that they are involved and doing what they should be doing in terms of the lease, in terms of their responsibility. We ask that both be held accountable, and very strict enforcements be made for those people in violation, in terms of either losing their Section 8 certificates or losing their properties. And, finally, we ask that additional inspectors be trained and placed on the payroll immediately. (Applause.)
It is absolutely, positively -- whether this is rumor or whether it is not, we have heard that the 11 inspectors, out of those 11 inspectors, there are only six that are actively working. Now, whether that's true or not -- CHAIRMAN COHEN: That's to cover 8500 70 RESOLUTION 970558 properties. It is an impossible situation.
11,000 properties. And so, therefore, something needs to be done as far as that is concerned immediately, so that the other concerns may be answered. And we do ask you that you do take the community at large seriously. Because it is a community problem in terms of money and in terms of stake. Thank you. CHAIRMAN COHEN: Thank you very much. There are going to be some questions. We are going to ask the questions be very brief and the answers be brief. Congressman Fattah is here. He has graciously consented to wait while we do this questioning. And we would like to give him the opportunity to be present and to be heard. Councilwoman Blackwell.
My question to you is, do you realize that we do have communities where Section 8 tenants are involved? One young lady just spoke who talked about her involvement in her community. 71 RESOLUTION 970558 Because a person is living in a Section 8 building doesn't mean that they don't care, that they are not leaders in their community, that they don't clean up, that they are not involved. We even have college students who are renters in my area, which has a majority of the Section 8 in the city. People work together, they are involved. To imply that because a person rents makes them irresponsible is absolutely unfair. (Applause.)
And certainly you mentioned owners and tenants. On one hand you mentioned owners should be involved; on one hand you mentioned tenants should be involved. Well, ofttimes you have both involved or either/or who are involved. I only want to say in closing that in America, everybody has rights, not just homeowners. And that you have to realize that when people have rights, people in communities are doing many of the things that you are criticizing them for. Communities are working. I don't 72 RESOLUTION 970558 know, maybe you live in a closed community where you don't see it. But where the majority of us live, we see people who do work together, with a minimum of problems, with all rental programs. CHAIRMAN COHEN: Thank you, Councilwoman. That doesn't require an answer. (Applause.)
With all due respect, I can only talk about my neighborhood and what I see. And I am on the front line, volunteering at least 30 hours a week to the community, an over-abundance of what one person should possibly do, but that's what I do. So I can tell you that we have on each of our -- on the corners of each of our neighborhoods, there are four rental properties. And I can tell you that not one person is involved in anything. And I'm not saying they are Section 23 8; I am saying they are rental properties. And I can tell you that of those people, very few of the owners are seen, and none of the renters are heard 73 RESOLUTION 970558 from. Just so that you know what --
We can rent as well as own. And we can be on Section 8 and other rental programs, as well as buy. Everybody can't live in your world. But in America, they can live here.
That's correct. Absolutely. And we welcome them all. Finally, this is a homeowner's issue, though. We are talking about the Philadelphia Housing Authority and those people that -- not homeowners, but people who live in properties and take stake in the community. So that's the second part of this whole thing.
You said they are not renters that are not Section 8. I don't know what program you are talking about. You talk about assessments, that seems to be a tax issue. This hearing is on Section 8.
It is not on general rental programs, it is not on the tax issue and reassessment. That's another hearing. As 74 RESOLUTION 970558 Councilman Nutter just said, that's for tomorrow. Today we are talking about Section 8. And as I said, everybody has a right, not just homeowners in one neighborhood. Everybody who lives in this country and in this city has a right. (Applause.)
Just a couple of quick questions. And what Councilwoman Blackwell was referring to is that there is a public hearing tomorrow afternoon at 2 o'clock to talk about the city's assessment and reassessment process and program that's run by the Board of Revision of Taxes. That's at 2 o'clock tomorrow afternoon. Ma'am, I appreciate your testimony. But I have to admit to you that I am not exactly clear on what you believe to be the problems of the Section 8 program in your neighborhood specifically. You talked about taxes; you talked about home ownership, you talked about rental. But I am left unclear as to what the specific problems are with Section 8 properties in your particular 75 RESOLUTION 970558 area. But I did want to put on the record that -- you indicated that you live in the zip code of 19149?
All right. You have 92 Section 8 units in the zip code of 19149. That's as compared to, say, 19144, where there are 956. But in your particular area, the Section 8 units represent 3 percent of all of the rental units in your zip code. You have 3,310 rental units in the zip code in which you live. 92 of them are Section 8. Now, what's going on with the other 97 percent of the rental properties in your zip code? What's going on with them?
You asked where I live. But where I represent, there are 12 zip codes involved. And it is not in numbers; it is a feeling, it is a problem. It is the specifics we talked about --
I understand 76 RESOLUTION 970558 that. You are entitled to your feelings. I am trying to understand them. And you can pour them out on this record, if you like. I don't live where you live, and I don't understand completely what the issues are. That's why I told you that I wasn't clear on what the problems were. But all I have is some factual information. I am trying to match that with, in your words, your feelings. What is the problem?
I was not asked to bring specifics down here. If I were, I would have brought all those people who spoke at our meeting two weeks ago and came to tell us what their specific problem was.
Well, you were at the meeting, and I wasn't. Tell me three things that the people said at the meeting.
They said that the neighbors don't upkeep their property, are staying out late at night, and staying up too late.
Okay. And are they Section 8 tenants, or are they the other part of the 97 percent in your zip code that are not Section 8? Who are they?
When we were able to have them call PHA, we found that they were Section 10 8 people.
Okay. So the Section 8 people stay up too late at light.
No. I am trying to go through the various problems. I am dead serious. I am dead serious. I am trying to understand what the problem is and how that can be addressed.
We can reiterate exactly what our friends in the 400 -- CHAIRMAN COHEN: Let's have order. Lively questioning and answering is okay, but let's have order. The questions are not intended to 78 RESOLUTION 970558 offend the witness.
In no way, shape, or form, Mr. Chairman. CHAIRMAN COHEN: I'm sure the witness is not intending to offend anyone. But we are trying to get at some facts, and that's what's involved. Go ahead, Councilman.
Facts and feelings, also. I know that we are trying to keep our feelings out of this. But I have been asked to represent -- to find out what the people thought. And that is exactly what I brought here. I see the map, sir. I know the numbers. I don't know all of the numbers. I know the numbers from what you just said.
Ma'am, I just spoke to Helen Dixon from PHA. Out of that meeting in Mayfair, there were seven properties that were called into PHA that were rental properties. None of them was on Section 25 8. 79 RESOLUTION 970558 (Applause.)
None of those properties was a Section 8 property. Seven came out of that meeting. Seven addresses came out of that meeting, and none of the addresses were in the Section 8 program. They might have been renters. They might have been renters; they might not have been homeowners. But none of them were in the Section 8 program.
And we also read that in the Inquirer. But I will also tell you that, of the 78 calls that I got, 60 of them were. So, therefore, they didn't need to call her. They knew to call us, or they called Manuel Costa, who also had to check for us. So we were prepared. We are just trying to explain to you that Section 8 --
Manuel Costa was the one who checked the seven properties that were given to him, and none of them were on Section 8.
We hoped that the meeting of 1200 in Mayfair was more of a 80 RESOLUTION 970558 constructive and listening, rather than a destructive and criticizing. We wanted to find out answers, and that is what we had set up on that PHA meeting that night. We tried to maintain the integrity of the program to find out what it was all about.
Ma'am, as I said, unfortunately, I was not at that meeting. If you could provide through the two co-chairs of the committee, if there was anything written out of that meeting, if anyone took any kind of notes, if there were questions that were asked. I read the newspaper story. It seemed to indicate, one of the newspaper stories seemed to indicate, that you, the group, put forward a bunch of questions, and at least one of the community leaders said that answers were received. I don't know what the questions were. But if you could share with the Chairs, and they will share with the members of the Committee and the rest of the Council, just what the meeting was about and what kind of information people wanted and what the statements were that were 81 RESOLUTION 970558 made and what the problems were that people articulated, I would greatly appreciate it. And, again, I want to say to you, I certainly meant no disrespect to you at all in my questioning. My colleagues certainly know the kinds of questions that I ask. And I regret if anyone took the Q and A between us in anything less than a serious manner. It was meant to be serious.
And I will let you know that those answers and questions were all faxed to Councilman Ortiz two days after the meeting.
Thank you, ma'am. CHAIRMAN COHEN: Thank you. Councilman Kenney. CHAIRMAN KENNEY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I was at the meeting. And, for the record, some of the issues that some of the residents raised were issues of the numbers of people that were living in a particular property, as it related to the number of people who were registered on the lease to be living there. That's 82 RESOLUTION 970558 one concern that was raised. The second concern that was raised is that the inspectors who were inspecting these 5 10,000 or 11,000 properties are only permitted to 6 inspect relative to Housing Code, Building Code 7 violations, and not to social interaction and social 8 problems. 9 Some of the other issues that were 10 raised were issues of late-night rowdiness in a 11 weekday situation, where people are trying to sleep to go to work in the morning.
Thank you. CHAIRMAN KENNEY: And, additionally, the way in which people put out trash, on what day the trash goes out. Seemingly, taken individually, simple kinds of things, but cumulatively can create a situation where there is some lack of comfort in the neighborhood as to the property's use and some of the activities that may or may not be going on with the property, and the way in which the property is managed. Both from a landlord perspective, when property requests for repair are made and not 83 RESOLUTION 970558 done appropriately, and that affects the tenant in a very adverse way because they don't want to live in that property with a leaky roof or with bad electrical work or anything like that, so that's part of the problem. And the other problem is kind of making sure that people have the necessary skills and are given the necessary counseling to run a home. I have said this many times before. I have owned a home now for a number of years. Every winter my brother needs to come over to my house to put the water in my system for my radiator because I don't know how to do it. I know you have to put a little bit of water in, and you run up to the further part in the house, and you have to turn the key and let the air out of the thing. I don't know how to do any of that. And those are simple skills that a person has to have in order to run a property effectively. And I think that one of the things we are looking to do, hopefully out of these hearings, 84 RESOLUTION 970558 is to make recommendations so that the people get the counseling and skills necessary to run a house. It is not easy for someone who was formerly homeless to say, "Here are the keys. Good luck," and leave them on their own. I don't think that serves the tenant and I don't think it serves the program very well when that happens. And I know that recently PHA has instituted, to their credit, some life skills and some house management skills for the tenants in this program and in the scattered site PHA program, which I think is very, very important. So those were some of the issues that were raised in a rational way. And we are waiting for, I think, some responses from PHA on this issues. And I just wanted to raise some of the issues that were raised at that meeting that evening. Thank you. CHAIRMAN COHEN: Miss Rotoli, we thank you very much for being here today and for the group of suggestions you have made. You can be sure the committee will be 85 RESOLUTION 970558 considering them, as well as that list of questions and answers that you sent to Councilman Ortiz. Thank you very much. ) CHAIRMAN COHEN: Congressman Fattah. Congressman, we are very pleased, indeed, that you were able to be here today. And we would very much like to hear your thoughts on the subject matter. CONGRESSMAN CHAKA FATTAH: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And let me, by way of greetings to all the members of Council, say it is a pleasure for me to be here, even though I am sure for all of us we find this to be an issue that is troubling. But, nonetheless, let me say a couple of things. We took note the other week, unfortunately, on the passing of two of the city's finest employees, fire personnel, one black, one white, attempting to carry out their work. And it brings that to mind, as we look at this Section 8 issue. " And I start my comments there because when I am in Washington, for those of us who work away from the city, whether in Harrisburg or Washington, we get to hear things and see things. And what was on the national news a few months ago was the circumstances in which a family had moved into Grays Ferry. And there was an incident, and then a number of other instances, that brought national attention to our city that was not welcomed attention.
And it is very, very important, in a city where we have various racial, ethnic, and religious groupings, that we work together to deal with issues that concern us and we not use, you know, other issues as ways to kind of get around the real problems. I don't think that there is any problem with Section 8 that can't be corrected either by federal legislation or by the 87 RESOLUTION 970558 administration at PHA. The Congress in October passed a restructuring bill for Section 8 to deal with some of what I consider to be the real issues, how we get more of a fair market rate, in terms of some of the project-based Section 8 programs. So that the dollars that are being used are not unfairly going to enrich landlords, but are being actually used to help citizens. 6 million families across this country, to have the ability to have some assistance in terms of their living circumstances. But there is room for improvement. I think that it is clear that the issues that we have known for some time in terms of Section 8, that we have to have more inspectors at the local level; we have to make sure that the properties are well maintained. We also need to know that when people are renting, whether through Section 8 or any other vehicle, that they don't have a right to destroy neighborhoods or to be a discomfort to their 88 RESOLUTION 970558 neighbors. But we should be clear that the vast majority of renters in our city are not being subsidized by Section 8, that the vast majority of people who are renting are not being subsidized by any government program, but are renters. We also live in a city in which we have the highest rate of home ownership of almost any other city in the country. And in terms of African-American home ownership, we have the highest of any city in the country. And so we need to, as the Council has done, continue to work to build home ownership opportunities. We need to continue to try to deal with quality-of-life issues in communities, which I know a number of members are concerned about. But we should not be singling out families based on whether or not they are subsidized in some form under a federal program that makes them eligible. This city, and every neighborhood in it, has to understand that it is the law of this government, at the federal level, that people have the right to live anywhere that they want to live, 89 RESOLUTION 970558 in any neighborhood, on any street. ) CONGRESSMAN FATTAH: And that it is a violation of federal law to impede someone's right to a peaceful existence in those neighborhoods, particularly if that is focused at their race or religious background. And so we should, as we look at how to improve upon Section 8 -- Section 8 is not the only program that I think gives rise in some cases to some of these issues. There are other programs around that do also, I think, invite the Council's attention, in terms of how to improve those programs. But we live in a city in which there are over 30,000 vacant, abandoned, deteriorated row homes. If we have people who are prepared to fix up homes and to rent them out to either renters without Section 8 subsidy or with Section 8 subsidy, in most neighborhoods that should be a welcomed addition, rather than a vacant building that is deteriorating that can be the site of crime or fires or other types of problems. 90 RESOLUTION 970558 So we should be encouraging the appropriate use of these residential structures. And to the degree that we, as a city, can focus, I think, more appropriately on some of the real issues, which is that there are -- there is a need in our city to confront the issue of race more directly, not through the kind of subterfuge of Section 8. We should have a discussion. We should understand that in this city, in every community, there are people who make a very important contribution to making this city what it is.
And that in every community, in every neighborhood, there are people who act in anti-social ways, and that they should appropriately be dealt with. But we should not, because of the color of someone's skin or their religious background, or any other distinction that one might want to draw, inappropriately ascribe to them actions that are, in somebody's mind, a stereotype of behavior that, unfortunately, in their own family upbringing or in some other way they have not been 91 RESOLUTION 970558 able to come to realize that you can't judge people and you should not judge people or groups of people based on the actions of isolated individuals. ) CONGRESSMAN FATTAH: I would hope that as the Council goes forward, that you will look at the restructuring bill that passed the Congress. There have been new appropriations that have been made to deal with some of the other undermining issues, underlying issues in Section 8. We have a number of buildings that are not only in physical distress, but are in fiscal distress. And there has been a multi-billion-dollar appropriation so that these Section 8 renewals can go forward. And it is in none of our interests as a city to have families with small children homeless on our streets. We need to utilize these federal resources in ways in which we can strengthen neighborhoods and which people can understand that there are people of every ethnic and religious background who benefit under Section 8 and who need 92 RESOLUTION 970558 those benefits and need that support so that they can maintain an existence for their families. And so we would hope to live in a world in which people had all of the resources that they would need, but that's not the world that we live in. And that's why the United States Congress has appropriated this money. And I know that Congressman Borski, and those others who serve in Washington, Senator Spector, Senator Santorum, we want this program to be able to work to the benefit of the individual families and to strengthen neighborhoods, so that rather than have buildings that would not be utilized, have them be utilized. But in no way would we condone tenants who don't appropriately respect the values and the culture in a community. But we will not and we cannot allow the laws of our country to be violated. People cannot be run out of neighborhoods because they live -- they happen to live in a neighborhood in which they are in a minority because of their racial or religious grouping. CHAIRMAN COHEN: Thank you very much. ) CHAIRMAN COHEN: Thank you very much for your very thoughtful comments. I am just pleased that, generally, the discussion in the city has been at almost a surprisingly civil level. Different points of views have been expressed, but they have been expressed in a manner in which most people have concluded what we're seeking is not to kill the program, because it does so much good, but to improve it to get rid of whatever problems may exist. Councilman Kenney. CHAIRMAN KENNEY: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. ) CHAIRMAN KENNEY: Congressman, I would like to thank you for being here today and taking the time out of your schedule to come here and give your thoughts, which are very, very timely as we discuss this issue. Knowing your long-term involvement, before even going into the Congress, with issues of housing, adequate housing, available housing, and 94 RESOLUTION 970558 fair housing, I am confident that with your and Congressman Borski's work, along with the Senate leadership, that we can make the improvements to this program that are necessary. All of us at the beginning, at the outset of this hearing made statements about our support for the program and our desire to see it improved to serve more people in a better fashion. One of the things that I would like Congress to look at -- and I know that Congress has looked at this, but I would like to do some more work together with Congress on this issue -- is the issue of home ownership.
I think that no one in this room 16 would disagree that the preferable, preferable situation would be for people to own their home, to be working towards paying for their home or to be subsidized towards owning a home, as opposed to landlords and other people who are gaining money from the rentals. I think that every neighborhood in the city, regardless of its ethnicity or race, does move towards home ownership as the paradigm model for what we should be about in the city. 95 RESOLUTION 970558 One of the issues, for example -- and I grew up in Whitman Park, in Whitman, and all the issues that surrounded the issue of the Whitman Park Housing Project, and the ugliness that went on down there. But one of the things that happened as a result of all the issues in Whitman Park was, the project ultimately became a home ownership model, a turnkey program where people paid towards a mortgage and in the end owned their home. And despite the racial conflict and class conflict that went on during the 1970s, that neighborhood, and those homes, are integrated, safe, and comfortable places in which to live. People receive subsidized help towards the ownership of those homes. And I think that, in the end, the program truly worked. There are people from the neighborhood who have access to those homes, people from outside the community, people from different race and ethnic groups who have learned to live together in a home ownership model that I think really, truly does work in our community. And I would just urge you -- and I 96 RESOLUTION 970558 know you work towards it every day -- to try to maybe flush out some more home ownership opportunities, to take some of those dollars that we use towards rental payments, and move them towards mortgages and other types of subsidies to allow people to own their homes, at which point you know people have a better stake and more of a pride and dignity about where it is they live. CONGRESSMAN FATTAH: Well, Councilman, I think that you are absolutely correct. And we are looking now -- and I have met with Secretary Fumo and other members of Congress who are interested -- at whether or not we could utilize Section 8 certificates, rather than just for rental payments, but whether or not, in conjunction with a local government like here in Philadelphia, we could create programs in which those dollars could go to actually provide economic empowerment for these families and to give them a stake in their own housing circumstances. So I think you are right on point. And there is a lot of work that has been done to deal with one of the issues that I think fairly should be criticized in Section 8; 97 RESOLUTION 970558 whereas, Section 8 is paying a much higher rate for rental of a property than what's being paid in the home next door. I don't think any of us, as taxpayers and as people who are concerned about providing affordable housing for people, want to see a circumstance in which landlords are allowed to get away with charging for a program to help low-income citizens and families more money than they would have otherwise, would have been able to receive through a fair market rental. ) CHAIRMAN KENNEY: Thank you very much and thank you for your attendance today. CHAIRMAN COHEN: Thank you, Congressman. May we impose just one further request on you? The Philadelphia Office of HUD was scheduled to testify at the hearing today. Late yesterday they informed the committee that they would not be available to testify, and we fear that that's impeding the progress of this committee. We very strongly urge upon you to let the Secretary of HUD be informed of that. 98 RESOLUTION 970558 CONGRESSMAN FATTAH: Mr. Chairman, I will do that.
And I have, in conjunction with Senator Specter and Senator Santorum and Congressman Borski, and our late departing, on his way to Italy, Congressman Foglietta, we have formed a Federal Funds Council, that I am Chairing, looking at how federal funds are being utilized in Philadelphia, to make sure that programs like this are working as effectively as they can. We want to work with the Council, as you go forward. These are some very important issues. And we have to separate out the legitimate -- everybody who is complaining about Section 8 is not complaining because they have some racial, or otherwise some untoward motive. There are some legitimate problems that need to be worked through, and we should work through those problems. CHAIRMAN COHEN: But that doesn't help its cause by boycotting this meeting. CONGRESSMAN FATTAH: No. What I am saying to you is that I am willing to work with you 99 RESOLUTION 970558 to make sure that HUD fully cooperates with the Council as you seek to find ways to improve the Section 8 program. CHAIRMAN COHEN: Very good. Thank you. Councilwoman Fernandez.
Thank you, Councilman Cohen. It is great to see you here, Congressman Fattah, since you represent me and my family. We are proud to have you in Washington. Three questions. Since I'm not sure, I would love to know what your position is on three specifics. One would be, do you feel there are enough PHA inspectors currently -- CONGRESSMAN FATTAH: No. 19
-- at least authorized? CONGRESSMAN FATTAH: From what I --
Is it true that there are 11 authorized? CONGRESSMAN FATTAH: Yes. From what I understand, there are 11 that are authorized. But 100 RESOLUTION 970558 I don't believe that is enough. PHA, for all of its successes -- and there have been a lot -- you know, has had difficulty focusing in on, number one, its scattered site inventory. And I think akin to that is the whole issue of the Section 8 inventory. I mean, I think the whole effort there has to be improved. We have, I think, seen tremendous improvement. PHA has been moved off the Troubled Federal Housing Authority list under the leadership of the Mayor and the President of the City Council and the Board, and John White, Jr., and his work. PHA has made significant strides. But I don't think that anyone would suggest that there are enough inspectors. And I think we also have to look at the training of inspectors, that there is an appropriate training process, and that they also have a workload that allows them to both handle the inspections, but also be available to hear from community leaders about potential problems that they see, so that their inspections and the concerns of the community are not so isolated from each other.
My second 101 RESOLUTION 970558 question is, if there was a situation where a landlord was not keeping their properties up, yet still taking the federal and public dollars, do you foresee some tougher sanctions so that Section 8 certificates could be lifted? CONGRESSMAN FATTAH: Well, in part of the restructuring effort that was passed in late October, there is an increased focus at the federal level where we want to encourage a broader participation, I think is what the bill calls for, between state housing agencies and local public housing authorities, nonprofits and for-profits. This is not a problem isolated to Philadelphia. Public housing authorities throughout the country have had similar difficulties. And so the bill really kind of creates more of a shareholder group in which there would be a number of entities that would be involved in verifying and certifying these buildings, and also looking at the fair market rate issue and some of these other issues.
I was also concerned about decertifying or lifting the certificate if there is a landlord -- 102 RESOLUTION 970558 CONGRESSMAN FATTAH: It would deal with a whole gamut of administering Section 8 at the local community level, yes.
My third question would be, where there is a tenant receiving Section 8 dollars who is convicted of either buying or selling drugs, do you feel that would be grounds for having that person suspended from the program? CONGRESSMAN FATTAH: Well, let me say this: That, number one, tenants -- and I just want the record to be clear -- don't receive Section 8 dollars. What they receive is a certificate that allows them to negotiate a rental agreement, and those Section 8 dollars were to flow to the landlord. But I think in any circumstance where someone has violated the law, and particularly as it relates to the most destructive impact we have in our neighborhoods, which is drugs, that they should not be entitled to any assistance under Section 8. But I would be careful. I would be very careful here. Because I know that there have been other efforts in this regard, both by the local 103 RESOLUTION 970558 housing authority and at the federal level. President Clinton has insisted that in public housing, that the same would be true. And I think you have to separate the person who has the Section 8 certificate from activities that may take place by their children or other people that they may not be aware of. And I think that unless it is clear that they have violated the law, or that they knowingly have participated in some conspiracy to violate the law, we should not be punishing, say, for instance, a grandmother that has a teenager under their care, and the teenager goes out and does something that the grandmother is not aware of, and then somehow we are throwing her out in the street. I think we have to be very careful as we deal with this issue, that we are clear, at least, as to what I am agreeing to. I agree, yes, that if someone has a certificate and they violate the law as it relates to illegal narcotics trafficking, that they definitely should lose that right. But we have to be careful in our rush to deal with this --
I understand 104 RESOLUTION 970558 that. CONGRESSMAN FATTAH: -- that we don't have unintended consequences.
And I would agree with you. But I think it also needs to be a little tighter than it is now. CONGRESSMAN FATTAH: I agree.
Thank you. (Applause.) CONGRESSMAN FATTAH: Mr. Chairman, I am going to have to leave in about eight minutes. I was here to testify at 10 o'clock, and things were a little backed up. I just want to make everyone aware that I have to depart soon. CHAIRMAN COHEN: I wanted to congratulate you on your Fair Trade vote, or Fast-Track legislation. I thought it was a very courageous action by you and deserving of support. CONGRESSMAN FATTAH: Thank you. CHAIRMAN COHEN: Councilwoman Blackwell.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I only wanted to thank the 105 RESOLUTION 970558 Congressman. Certainly also as my Congressman, we worked together on this and many, many issues. And I think he is doing a great job in Washington. And I think his statement on Section 7 was a fair statement and a true statement. And we 8 thank him for his work in this area. CONGRESSMAN FATTAH: Thank you, Councilwoman. (Applause.) CHAIRMAN COHEN: Councilwoman Tasco.
Good morning, Congressman. We appreciate your coming here today and your comments about the program. Oftentimes what happens, because the bureaucrats can't get it together, we want to throw the baby out with the bath. And there are problems with Section 20 8. We need to look at that. And hopefully that the people in Washington will utilize the support from the various community organizations and the concerns they have, and take those into account when they are changing and restructuring the law. I just want to say to you that what I 106 RESOLUTION 970558 think ought to happen, if you can possibly do it, is to incorporate some dollars into the federal legislation for supportive services for families who are on Section 8. (Applause.)
We have the Dignity Housing Program in the City of Philadelphia. And when I first came on board, there was some discussion in City Council about how to give houses, donate houses, to that program. And certainly the 9th Councilmanic District has the largest portion in my district of those houses. But I will say that program works. They take people who are or have been homeless, put them to work, and also work with them to deal with the problems they have on a day-to-day basis. Because, you know, they probably need some support. And that program is working. And I think Section 8 can work, if given the supportive services that are needed for this program. And I suggest that we look at that, in addition to restructuring, that some dollars are sent to us to help with the supportive services. 107 RESOLUTION 970558 CONGRESSMAN FATTAH: I know of your concern. And let me say, I would go further than that. I believe that it would be very appropriate for us to strongly consider having these units managed and maintained by community development corporations that are based in these neighborhoods, that exist maybe in cooperation with tenant association partnerships. You are well aware of the work of the Greater Germantown Housing Development Corporation in your district, which is one of the finest CDCs in the nation, where you have neighborhood-based people who are concerned about keeping the housing stock up, who understand how vitally important it is to have decent housing stock in the community, and that PHA, as I have said, with other housing authorities, have found it difficult to have the same level of sensitivity to some of these issues. And I think that we could at least look at an experimental program in which we could have qualified CDCs be contracted through PHA, or directly through HUD, to manage some group of these houses. 108 RESOLUTION 970558 So that at least as we are dealing with this issue, we have people who have shown a commitment in their communities to affordable housing, and often empower people at a community basis, since there has been an obvious failure of the government to be able to do it from a long-reach standpoint. So there are ways to go about this. Again, I think if we could get some of the unfortunate issues out of the way, and deal with straightly the issues related to how do we maintain quality, affordable housing in our communities, there are ways for all of us to work together on these issues.
If you will look at the map, you will see that a large number of the Section 8's are in the Northwest section. And we have checked with the community leaders and other elected officials in the district to see what kinds of problems that have existed. They are minor. When we have a complaint, we contact PHA. They have been responsive to us. And in terms of renters, if we know a house is being rented, we contact the landlord. And 109 RESOLUTION 970558 my office calls the landlord and says that your people are not being good neighbors, and what are you going to do about it. And we have had some success in addressing those problems. But the leaders in my district believe that we should keep the Section 8 program, don't throw the baby out with the bath, but there are some supportive services that are needed, and they don't want clustering. Because there has been an issue raised by our Mayor about clustering. And I believe, and I think, that that is against the Federal Housing Law, in terms of impacting a neighborhood with any one group of people. And I would like for you to respond to that. CONGRESSMAN FATTAH: A couple of issues. One is that President Clinton had a task force that did a lot of work on this issue. And as part of that, what we now understand -- which I think all of us kind of would understand just through common sense -- is that the aggregation of poverty is more devastating to the families involved 110 RESOLUTION 970558 than the individual, isolated circumstance of someone being empoverished. That is to say that, when you create a situation where you compound the difficulties that come from a life without a great deal of resources in a particular location, you create more synergy to some of the negative outcomes of that. And so it is not useful, nor would it be in keeping with the approach of the federal government. The approach of the federal government is one that I have articulated for a long time, which is that we need to move away from continuing to build, for instance, high-rise public housing for families. That's totally to the side now. We are moving to try to create situations where families, first of all, would not be stigmatized by whoever their landlord may be. You have plenty of families in Philadelphia who meet -- who have the same level of poverty as families who are currently served by Section 8, who live in neighborhoods. And they need services just as much as those who may have a 111 RESOLUTION 970558 Section 8 certificate. We need to focus supportive services on communities in need and on families in need. We have to be very careful not to further exacerbate these problems as we go forward. And that we have plenty of examples of families who, notwithstanding their income, have been leaders in their community. Whether it is in the anti-drug effort or as block captains or in a whole host of things that we have all seen. So there are issues we need to deal with, I think you are right. But I think we need to be careful as we go about it. And I don't think that any effort to aggregate families under Section 8 or any other type of subsidy program is an appropriate way for us to go with families with small children.
I agree with Councilman Kenney. We need the Turnkey III program because it brings about -- CONGRESSMAN FATTAH: I do want to say one thing on that, but I will tag it on to my answer to my Councilman's question. I would not want to delay his opportunity to speak. 112 RESOLUTION 970558 CHAIRMAN COHEN: Well, I would just want Councilwoman Verna, who hasn't spoken yet.
Congressman, I want to thank you for coming in and for your testimony. And I was delighted to hear you say that the Section 8 program was not designed for rich landlords. I very quickly went through a list of ownership for some of the Section 8s in my district. There is one owner -- who doesn't live in the city, incidentally -- who owns 29 Section 8 properties and owes approximately $42,341 in city taxes. And looking over the records, I see what his scam is. He buys a property in 1990, pays the taxes in 1990, and hasn't paid taxes since. But, in the meantime, it is a Section 22 8 property, and he is gaining all of the benefits. And if he lives out of the city, all he is doing is collecting the check. I am sure he never goes to the 113 RESOLUTION 970558 property, he doesn't know what condition it is in. And I don't think it is fair to the tenants, it is not fair to the city, and -- (Voice from audience)
-- and I think as you are reviewing some of the issues surrounding Section 8 -- and this, I assume, is more of a city problem -- but at the same time I think that when somebody owns 29 properties under Section 8 and doesn't pay any of the taxes, something is radically wrong. CONGRESSMAN FATTAH: I don't think anyone who is not current in the city taxes should be allowed to have rental receipts from the federal government for Section 8. So I agree with you that -- I mean, most of the problems related to Section 8 has to do with, at least from a federal concern, has to do with the landlords and has to do with, you know, the fact that we need to have a tighter program. The problem is that the administration of the program is left in the hands of local housing authorities, many of which in our largest cities have had difficulty dealing with 114 RESOLUTION 970558 their own inventory of housing. So I think that part of what we're searching for, and through this new legislation that was recently signed into law, is a better approach to have the administration of program more strongly adhered to.
Great. And I certainly want to agree with my colleagues about the supportive services and also the Turnkey. I think that would be very, very helpful. Thank you. CHAIRMAN COHEN: Do we understand they are not even supposed to get a Certificate of Occupancy, the landlord, if he is behind in rent?
That's what I am saying. I think it is more of a city problem than it is the federal government. But I think there has to be some very rigid regulations. I mean, if the man lives out of the city --
What they need 115 RESOLUTION 970558 is enforcement, Councilwoman.
I understand that very readily. CHAIRMAN COHEN: Thank you very much. Councilman Nutter.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Congressman, just as a followup to Councilwoman Tasco, I had also planned to ask you about the much discussed, somewhat unusual and bizarre idea that we would go into a clustering policy. I recall that you were slightly ahead of your time on the issue of getting rid of the large, high-rise units, at a time when everyone else said that we should either maintain them or keep going in that direction. You took on that particular issue. I would only ask, it is reported, I believe, in today's or yesterday's newspaper that the Mayor is now possibly asking Congressman Borski to propose new regulations that would allow more of this clustering idea. 116 RESOLUTION 970558 I would only ask that you share your particular perspective and views with Congressman Borski. We do not need to go in that area. And, quite honestly, if the Administration thought enough of the issue, they would have people here today so we would have some legitimate discussion. Not force you, although you handle yourself fine, but not force you to try to respond to an issue that was clearly created by them. CONGRESSMAN FATTAH: Let me say a couple of things. One is that I had a conversation with Congressman Borski who is very, very concerned about this issue. The totality of that conversation was this issue of the fair market rental rate. And I think that is a very legitimate issue, and is one I am willing to work with him on. Because I do think it is inappropriate for landlords to be able to receive, you know, in some cases twice as much as they would ordinarily have been able to receive for the rental of a unit. 117 RESOLUTION 970558
Congressman, I wanted to ask you, do you know, how is that even possible, since there is a regulation and a definition in the Code of Federal Regulations, in 982, on what a fair market value is? CONGRESSMAN FATTAH: Obviously, with all the attention that's been focused on how to make sure that poor people don't, you know, cheat various systems that are designed to help them, very little has ever been done to figure out what we do about, as Councilwoman Verna has said, those who are very well off, who have figured out how to steal billions of dollars from these same systems. And whether we are talking about Welfare or a Section 8, people have been found to have been ingenious and very creative in figuring out ways to scheme these programs. But, nonetheless, I think that it gets to the issue that I raised in response to Councilwoman Tasco, which is that I think we really need to look for a different tool to administer the program at a community level. And I think that we have, in our city, very capable community development 118 RESOLUTION 970558 corporations that have been set up either as adjuncts to churches or other programs, and which have been very involved in the creation of affordable housing in communities. We worked together on a very important housing matter in our own community. There are a lot of people who at the neighborhood level care about the housing stock, care about making sure that there are good, quality people who are able to rent or own in their communities, and should be involved in that. So let me just say, finally, that I wanted to comment on the home ownership issue. We worked with -- and it has been announced now -- a major program by Fannie Mae to encourage home ownership. What most people pay in rent, they could be paying in a mortgage. And what it means is that they have to have the counseling and the supportive services to make sure that they can improve their credit-worthiness in terms of their credit reports, and that they save up enough money. The Pew Foundation has been working with Kromer's office here in the city. And we have 119 RESOLUTION 970558 a specialized program that allows the Foundation to help put up money for the downpayment on homes for families. We have, and we lead the country now, in families who own their homes. It is the strength of our neighborhoods, and we should encourage that. We also should have a reasonable mix of rental units for young people as they start out and don't have a need to own a home. And at times, in other circumstances, in people's lives, they may find renting more appropriate. So renting is fine. But we do know that the quality of any community is enhanced when people have the opportunity to own. It is something that we are very supportive of, and there are a lot of programs that exist right now to help move people in that direction. I want to thank the Chairman and thank Councilman Ortiz for inviting me. CHAIRMAN COHEN: Can you hold one second for Councilman DiCicco? CONGRESSMAN FATTAH: Of course, for Councilman DiCicco. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Thank you, 120 RESOLUTION 970558 Mr. Chairman. And thank you, Congressman, for being here today. I just wanted to follow up on Councilwoman Verna's issue on how an individual could be doing business in Philadelphia and owing 40, 50 thousand dollars on the Section 8 rental properties. Or for any business, for that matter. We do have in the city -- and, again, I think it is probably the city's problem, more so than the federal government, although I think we can work out a system of notification. As you may know, before an individual in the City of Philadelphia is permitted to operate a bar or a restaurant with a liquor license, they must first show the Pennsylvania Liquor Control Board that all of their taxes that were due in the City of Philadelphia have in fact been paid. And that's in a written statement.
Any business, for that matter, would need to show the city before a license was issued for a luncheonette, a corner grocery store, that you have not -- you are not in arrears with any taxes due the city before a license is issued. So those kinds of mechanisms are in place. 121 RESOLUTION 970558 I think what we may need to do is talk to the appropriate city agencies or city department, maybe it is L & I, who work out a similar flagging mechanism to let the people at HUD know that, A, Mr. So-And-So owes X amount of taxes, therefore HUD should not issue a license, or whatever it is that is issued, the Section 8 certificate, for the purpose of doing business in the City of Philadelphia. And I think that's very easily done. And that should help us in a way. CONGRESSMAN FATTAH: Let me assure you that my office would be willing to work with the appropriate authorities here in the Council to ensure that HUD would give every consideration to working with the city on such a program. Landlords who are receiving rental payments under Section 8 should be the first to make sure that their taxes are paid. These taxes go to support our school system and to make sure that there is adequate fire and police protection and other city services. They would not be able to rent these buildings out unless these services were available. 122 RESOLUTION 970558 So they should be the first to make sure that they would be appropriately paying what is part of their civic rent here in the City of Philadelphia. So thank you. CHAIRMAN COHEN: Congressman, as you are leaving, I would like to express thanks for your coming in, and urge you to try to convince HUD that there are two bodies, different bodies, in the City of Philadelphia that constitute the government. One is the Mayor, and the other is the City Council. And the City Council believes that it would have the right to expect HUD to cooperate with it, as well as with the Mayor. And we would just urge -- CONGRESSMAN FATTAH: As someone who has been a legislator and who serves in the Congress -- we are a co-equal branch of the federal government -- I understand that the legislative body here is, indeed, very important. And that HUD, I think, at least by the laws that we passed in the Congress, would require in all of our programs -- and we need to continue to do so -- that the Council act on any application for federal funds from HUD, and not just 123 RESOLUTION 970558 that the Mayor would apply for them. So I think that in keeping with the spirit of that, that in Section 8, and in any other federal program, the legislators who represent the people of this city, who have been elected in these districts and citywide, your voice should be heard. And I would just hope that as we go forward, that we can calm some of the unfortunate rhetoric, and focus in on the substance. Because in every community, whether it is an African-American, Hispanic community, or a majority white community, none of us want to have people in communities who are not going to be productive and active citizens. But at the same right, we have to be very, very careful that we do not infringe upon people's Constitutional rights. Because then we will have to, as a federal government, make sure that, as we have had in the past, that people do have a right to live anywhere that they desire to live. Thank you. CHAIRMAN COHEN: We thank you very, very much. ) CHAIRMAN KENNEY: Ladies and gentlemen, I would please ask that all conversation please cease or be taken into the hallway. Thank you very much. Please identify yourself for the record and proceed with your testimony.
I am William Yancey, Professor of Sociology at Temple University. I am here today to talk about three issues. One is the concentration of poverty and its consequences. And from statements that the Councilmen already made, as well as the Congressman, that may not be necessary. Secondly it is to talk about Section 18 8 housing and its distribution across the city. And, finally, to talk about some research we have just done concerning neighborhood change and housing values. There is at least 40 years of social science research that has demonstrated repeatedly that being poor hurts in many different ways. But that same research has already 125 RESOLUTION 970558 shown that when you concentrate groups of people who are poor in single spaces, or small spaces, that pain that's associated with poverty is in fact exacerbated. We have been conducting research over the last five years on education in cities around the United States. And one of the strongest findings that we observe in every city that we have seen is that schools that are characterized by high concentrations of low-income students in fact have difficulty getting those students to achieve academically. We see those same kinds of results over and over, indicating that concentrations of poverty is bad public policy. Section 8 is a program that, in fact, works exactly the opposite way. What's on the screen here -- and some of you may have copies of -- are maps that we have made that describe the distribution of Section 8 housing across the city. These are different from the map that you have already seen in two important ways. 126 RESOLUTION 970558 One is that the areas of this map are by census tracts, rather than zip codes. And, secondly, rather than simply counting the number of Section 8 housing units in each tract, we have calculated the percent of housing in each tract across the city that is Section 8. Looking at this map, you can see fairly clearly two things. One is that Section 8 is everywhere. At the same time, there are some neighborhoods where it is more concentrated than in others. It is, indeed, spread across the city. If you ask the question, what's the characteristic of neighborhoods that appear to have more Section 8, there are really two answers to that. One is that they are neighborhoods that in one form or another exhibited symptoms of decline. And second is that they are neighborhoods where the average family income is lower than the average across the city. A third thing -- and this is really illustrated better in the second and third overheads 127 RESOLUTION 970558 that are there -- what's on the board is a map showing rates of poverty, or poverty across the City of Philadelphia. And I think you can see one is in North and West Philadelphia, there are relatively high concentrations of poor people who are African-American. Immediately to the right of that shading and the green dots are fairly high concentrations of people who are Latino and poor. And spread, really, across this map are people who are white and poor. This distribution of low income across the city turns out to be closely associated with the distribution of Section 8 housing. CHAIRMAN KENNEY: Professor, could you please give us an idea as to the income levels of the individuals you are talking about as you regard as poor or none? Is there a certain threshold of income that you are talking about?
Sure. Right. The poverty level is determined by the Department of Agriculture, in fact. I don't 128 RESOLUTION 970558 know exactly what the numbers are. I think for a family of four in 1996 was something like $16,000 a year. I should get those sort of rounded numbers. CHAIRMAN KENNEY: If you know and if you could get them for us, we would appreciate it. If you know, fine. If you could get them for us, we would appreciate it.
I can surely get them for you. But what the Agriculture Department does is say, how much does a family need to house itself, to feed itself, to clothe its children, and so forth. And these are families that don't have sufficient income, in fact, to do those things.
Sure. Absolutely. If you look at this map, which is Section 8 housing, and compare that to the one before -- you can't do that, really, on the screen because they look alike -- but, in fact, that's the 129 RESOLUTION 970558 point. To a large degree, the distribution of Section 8 housing across the street follows the distribution of low-income families by their racial identification. That is, black Section 8 families are heavily concentrated in the black neighborhoods, Latinos, in the Latino neighborhoods. And whites are spread across the white neighborhoods across the city. There is some good news. In terms of racial integration, Section 8 tenants are in fact slightly more integrated by race than is the population as a whole, that everyone knows is a highly segregated city. But that difference is not large, and the general finding is that Section 8 tenants in general follow the race and ethnicity of their population, of the population as a whole. The third thing I want to talk about today is a concern that people have expressed over the last three or four weeks concerning the impact of Section 8 on neighborhoods. Regretfully, the data that we have is 130 RESOLUTION 970558 really from the census. And the last census is 1990. So it is impossible to answer the question that we have been asked to answer. We have data now in 1996 and '97 from the Housing Authority. And to say, okay, what effect has that had on housing values, would require that we get later data on housing values in the city. But what we did do is examine change in housing values across Philadelphia from 1980 to 1990. And to do this, asking the question of, what's the effect of the racial composition and racial change of neighborhoods on change in housing values. It was first necessary to classify neighborhoods in the city. This is somewhat smaller. You don't have a picture of that in your hands. But what it shows is the distribution of Latino and African-American populations across Philadelphia. This is 1990 data. There are large black neighborhoods in North and West Philadelphia, highly concentrated Latino neighborhood in North Philadelphia. And, for 131 RESOLUTION 970558 the most part, the rest of the city is white. If you are concerned about race and housing values and so forth, what's necessary is not simply compare these neighborhoods, but, in fact, to classify neighborhoods by race and racial change over time. Nice colors. What the blue represents here are areas of the city that have been white for ten years and remained white over those ten-year periods. The dark reds are neighborhoods that were African-American in 1980 and are African-American -- were in 1990 African-American. What's green are neighborhoods that over that decade became racially integrated, that had moved from being predominantly white to being racially integrated in the sense of having more than 10 percent of the populations who were African-American. Yellow are neighborhoods that were racially integrated over the entire time, having some mixture between 20 and 70 percent African-American. And the orange are neighborhoods that 132 RESOLUTION 970558 were integrated and became predominantly black over the period. There is one neighborhood that we have labeled here "Gentry," just south, in South Philadelphia -- can you point it out down there? -- where, in fact, racial change has been in the opposite direction from the general trend, so that white populations are displacing the black population that was there before.
That's the next question. If we then look at the housing values that are associated with these -- you don't have a slide -- neighborhoods, what happens is you get the following results. One is that housing in the city that is older, somewhat surprisingly, is associated with more stable and positive housing values. Secondly, it turns out that neighborhoods that are predominantly black and have 133 RESOLUTION 970558 remained predominantly black have lost value relative to other parts of the city. The one neighborhood that we have labeled here "Gentry" has in fact gained value, no 6 surprise, by some $40,000 over the average in the city. The news I am really spending all this time to tell you about is, the neighborhoods that are here labeled green and yellow have gained housing values by some $8,000 more than the blue, all-stable white neighborhoods, or other neighborhoods in the city. What this research shows is that racial integration has positive effects on the value of housing. This is not a new finding. It has been found in other cities; it has been found in other times in Philadelphia. It is a finding that nobody ever believes, but continues to be replicated. I raise it here today mostly because people associate Section 8 with racial integration and declining values. The good news is that if you want to 134 RESOLUTION 970558 secure the value of your house and you're white, the best thing to do is to talk your neighbors into selling their house to a member of a minority, and then make sure that your neighborhood remains integrated. All of this reminds me of a novel by Ralph Ellison where he describes life in Mississippi in the 1930's, and how the men would seek entertainment, entertain themselves by throwing dimes in the dirt to the kids. And the kids would fight over the dimes, and that was great sport. What we're seeing in the city is large, large areas of communities who are feeling real pain because of the changing economic structure of the city. What we're seeing in the fight over Section 8 is kids fighting over dimes, when, in fact, the real issue is the change in the economy of the city. And these groups, rather than fighting, should obviously be getting together. And I am pleased that the Council is clearly directing themselves to this broader issue of economic structure and not allowing us to continue to be kids fighting in the dirt. 135 RESOLUTION 970558 Thank you. CHAIRMAN KENNEY: Thank you very much for your testimony. Your data and your discussion relative to census tracts and home ownership -- census tracts and poverty issues, are they generally related to home ownership? Are these properties that you are talking about owned by the resident, or are they rental properties? I am trying to figure out. Or is it a mix?
Well -- CHAIRMAN KENNEY: The conclusion that you made relative to integrated neighborhoods, ensuring a rising property value and a more stable, conducive environment for social interaction -- I think that's what you basically believe --