Yes. CHAIRMAN KENNEY: -- is that based on the issue of home ownership or is it a mix of rental and ownership?
These are owner occupied, the value of owner-occupied housing. CHAIRMAN KENNEY: Councilman DiCicco, 136 RESOLUTION 970558 not to be rude, because we were listening, but we were talking about a neighborhood -- and I want to recognize him -- because the neighborhood where he lives, which is a couple of streets over from where I live, has been integrated for 100 years and does experience exactly what you were talking about. And I will turn it over to him in a minute. But the issue is -- and I think this is what is important -- the more we foster the opportunities for home ownership, the more likely we have the opportunity to integrate stably and improve our property values for everyone. So, Councilman DiCicco. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Thank you. And I have said this, or made this argument in my community for years, that my community in South Philadelphia has always been a racially integrated community. Some of the black families that are there are third and fourth generation were actually there before some of the white families. And I have always found that to be a very healthy environment in which to live. Because the world, as we know, is made up of people of all 137 RESOLUTION 970558 colors. And I have encouraged people to make investments in my community. The problem I think that I see, I know we are focusing on Section 8 properties -- and I am not to suggest that everyone will be able to afford a home, or that everyone would like to even own a home. Some people find it more economically convenient to rent, because they don't want to have the responsibility of maintaining a home. But the problems that I experience in my community, which is an integrated community, all kinds of income levels, third, fourth generation of black, white, Hispanic, and now there is an Asian influence, is rental properties in particular who are owned by people who are basically absentee landlords and have no regard for the community in which they own properties of which they make money on. And I think that -- again, I appreciate the concern for Section 8 -- but I think that that is really one of the problems as relates to rental properties in the city and the way in which landlords maintain the property and/or screen 138 RESOLUTION 970558 the tenants who move into those properties. Again, I grew up in this neighborhood. I am a third generation. I went to school with people of color. They are my friends, we hang out together. So we never had that kind of problem. I understand in some neighborhoods, where people are not familiar with people from other ethnic backgrounds, there is always some fear, and that's the reality. I mean, that's the way it is. And hopefully over time we will be able to get past all of that. But I think that we really start to need to be concentrating on, when we issue, as Councilwoman Verna said, licenses to people who are in business -- I mean, landlords are basically in business. And I have no problem with people making money and being in business. But they are in business. And they have a responsibility to that community which affords them the opportunity to probably live in Bala Cynwyd and play golf on some very exclusive golf course. Because in our zip code, or just the 139 RESOLUTION 970558 zip code below Jimmy and I, there is one realtor, speculator, whatever you want to call him, that owns 200 properties. Primarily they are Section 8. He lives in Bala Cynwyd. He is just sucking the system. So what's happening is, the taxpayers, people who go to work, pay taxes, I don't think they are necessarily upset that someone in need is being given a helping hand. I think the problem is when they walk out of their house in the morning and they find that people who are living in a particular home and not paying the rent, but their tax dollars, the guy going to work, his tax dollars or her tax dollars are paying for that person to live in there, that they would like a person to be more responsible about the condition of the property.
Because that does have an impact on property values. And that could have a very negative impact on property values. And it becomes less attractive in a community for people to either want to stay in or move to. So I don't know necessarily that it is the other issues that are kind of underlying 140 RESOLUTION 970558 here, but, like, people are kind of hesitant to talk about. I think it is more the issue of the economics, in my opinion. CHAIRMAN KENNEY: Thank you very much. And just finally, before we let you go, one of the saddest parts about this whole discussion for me -- and this was raised by Congressman Fattah -- is that if we agree or stipulate to an average monthly price for Section 8 housing, say even if we are going to say six or seven hundred dollars a month, just think of the mortgage that that money could pay for, as opposed to going into the pocket of a landlord who lives out of town. Think about the ability for that tenant to be applying those dollars to a mortgage from a building and loan or a savings bank for ultimate potential home ownership. Think about all the other people we would be able to help. I mean, if the average mortgage price, the mortgage cost monthly, is 400, 500 dollars a month, and we are giving landlords six and seven hundred dollars a month for rental, just think 141 RESOLUTION 970558 about how many more people we could serve in a more stable way by applying those payments to a mortgage, as opposed to a rental payment. COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: And I think that really needs to be emphasized even more. Not all landlords, be it if they are landlords for Section 8 or just straight-out rental units, are irresponsible. There are many, good responsible landlords. In fact, Felicia from the 300 block of Dickinson testified to that, that her landlord is a good person. But what is happening now is, I remember growing up as a kid, I always heard the expression about block-busting. A lot of these landlords, speculators, are using now government funds. They are taking our taxpayers' dollars and using that for the purpose of block-busting. And there is no penalty for that; there is no control over that. So I think we really need to look at the legislation. And Congressman Fattah I think is right on target with moving towards home ownership 142 RESOLUTION 970558 and applying some of that money, maybe taking some money that is collected by a landlord into an escrow fund, or something of that nature, to eventually allow that person who is renting that property to become a property owner, and to move forward and really become an integral part of that community. But, again, many of these landlords -- and I know because I see it in my community -- are just using what is in existence today as a means of not only making money, because that's okay, but they are using that as a way of block-busting. This one person I speak to has about properties now on one given block, and has 16 literally allowed those properties, the first one or 17 two that he purchased, to deteriorate to create that 18 condition on that block so that people start to feel 19 hopeless and lose pride and hope in their community, 20 put up their signs, and the prices are being driven down. He buys them up, and now he has 20 properties, which he is getting anywhere between 650 and 850 dollars a month for rent. When, prior to that, those properties may have probably qualified 143 RESOLUTION 970558 for maybe $400 a month in rent, because an individual had to pay the rent and was not subsidized. So I think we all lose. I think the tenant probably loses even more than the people in the community. Well, eventually everybody loses. But I think the tenant is being used. And I think we really need to start getting after the landlords. Thank you.
Thank you, Professor. I am very glad that you have been here. I think the issue of clustering and ghettoizing poor people is bad public policy. It has been bad public policy. I am glad you have made that clear, as I have heard it before, with maps and with economic substantiation of that. So I am very glad. These hearings are going very well. Thank you for coming. Terry Gillen. Thank you. (Applause.) COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Just to go off 144 RESOLUTION 970558 on another subject, if I can. The briefing on the telecommunications legislation is still on for today at 3 o'clock. I believe it will be in the Caucus Room. So either a Councilperson or your representative might want to be there at 3 o'clock. Thank you.
Thank you. Terry Gillen, G-I-L-L-E-N. Members of City Council, thank you for inviting me to testify today. I know that time is short, so I will be brief. In many ways I feel as if I started all of this with an Op Ed that I wrote in the Inquirer last August. I wrote that Op Ed because my father grew up in Grays Ferry and I have family there. On my cousin's block, they have 12 Section 8 houses. I tried to get PHA to help the residents of that block with the problems they were facing, such as noise and trash, but could not get a satisfactory response from PHA. So that's why I 145 RESOLUTION 970558 wrote my Op Ed. It obviously struck a chord throughout the city. I want to clarify two points that sometimes have been taken out of context from my Op Ed. First, I did not say, nor would I ever say, that there is no racism in Grays Ferry. It is a historical fact that a faction of white residents in Grays Ferry have been intimidating and harassing blacks there since before the Civil War. It certainly did not start with Section 8 housing. However, we should not allow our focus on Section 8 to prevent us from addressing the very real problems of racism. However, neither should we allow the reality of racism to prevent us from focusing on the Section 8 program. Both areas need work. Rather, my point was that Section 8 issues are often about class conflicts and clashes between cultures, middle class and working class culture versus the culture of poverty and homelessness. If PHA did a better job of addressing these conflicts, it would help to eliminate one 146 RESOLUTION 970558 reason for racial antagonism in Grays Ferry. The racism would still exist, but this could help. The problem in many neighborhoods that have large numbers of Section 8 houses is the lack of what sociologist William Julius Wilson calls social organization. He defines this as the ability of residents to maintain effective social control. When the informal networks that bind people in most neighborhoods do not exist, then the government should help by creating more formal networks; through block meetings, for example. This is what I believe PHA has failed to do in this neighborhood. My second clarification is that I am not suggesting that scattered site housing for the poor has failed. In my opinion, we have not done a very good job in this city of managing the scattered site housing program. But that is a failure of commitment and management. It does not mean that we should abandon scattered site housing or move to a cluster approach. Instead, we should dedicate ourselves to doing a better job of managing Section 8 147 RESOLUTION 970558 housing. We could do this this in a number of neighbors. For example, we could do a better job of preparing tenants to move into middle-class environments, explaining about noise regulations and curfews. Second, we could improve community policing relationships, including sanitation, police involvement, on blocks where people may simply not know when to put out the trash. Third, the city could work with HUD to find ways to limit the concentration of Section 8 houses in blocks that are in danger of losing middle-class residents. And, finally, PHA should hold Section 17 8 landlords strictly accountable for the conditions of their properties. Those are the two points that I wanted to make, and I would be pleased to answer any questions that you may have.
Miss Gillen, one question. The issue of clustering and of what I call ghettoizing, that, in your opinion, is bad 148 RESOLUTION 970558 public policy?
Yes. Yes, I think it is bad public policy for the reasons that the previous person testified and for reasons that you yourself stated earlier, that it has just historically been proven not to address the problems of poverty.
Right. So the essence of the testimony is that we need to really look at the management of a program, not at the program itself and in terms of its value. But that the problems with Section 8 have come from, in essence, management processes that have not been implemented.
I think there are two problems. One is the management issues that I discussed. And the second are larger issues that I think HUD needs to address. I think the questions of spreading Section 8 evenly throughout all neighborhoods is a national problem. I mean, there is a Congressman in Chicago who looked at the issue last year, proposed legislation. 149 RESOLUTION 970558 I think we ought to be working with HUD and with members of the Congressional delegations in other cities to look at ways that we can get either the HUD regulations or HUD laws changed to address some of these issues. They are larger policy issues that this city will not be able to address by itself.
But the initial philosophy of the program contains that very aspect in it, that we should integrate the Section 8 holders throughout the city.
So that's already within it. Whether it is being applied or not that is something else.
George Gould, Liz Hersh. And next after that will be William 150 RESOLUTION 970558 Seaward and Virginia Chaney. Okay. Thank you, and identify yourself for the record, please.
My name is Liz Hersh. I am the Executive Director of the Tenants' Action Group.
My name is George Gould. I am the managing attorney of the Housing Unit at Community Legal Service, and also the Tenants' Action Group.
Thank you, Councilman. Good afternoon. I think it is afternoon now. I am Liz Hersh, Executive Director of the Tenants Action Group. And I am here today on behalf of TAG to speak in support of the Section 8 program. TAG was founded in 1973 to advocate for safety and affordable rental housing. Last year we served 20,000 people through our tenant hotline, self-help programs, housing counseling, homelessness prevention and rental assistance services. I have 151 RESOLUTION 970558 seven points I want to make. Number one, we all benefit from government subsidies for our housing. I think it has been said before, it should be said again. Homeowners get the largest single housing subsidy in this country, and that's the mortgage tax deduction. Number two, Section 8 exists for a reason. It addresses a very real problem, which is that we don't have enough affordable housing in this city, and many people can't afford to pay the rent. Without Section 8, we would have much more homelessness. Let me give you some facts. 25 an hour, to afford a two-bedroom apartment at what HUD considers to be a fair market rent of 689 a month. 73, or 208 percent of minimum wage, to afford a one bedroom at the fair market rent of 558 a month. 50 percent of all renters pay more than half of their income -- that means one of their 152 RESOLUTION 970558 two paychecks a month -- for housing alone. 70 percent pay more than 30 percent of their income on rent. Pennsylvanians pay some of the highest utility rates in the country. And low-income families often pay as much as 30 percent of their income on utilities. Recent research shows that utility shutoffs precipitated percent of all shelter 11 admissions. 12 Many low-income renter households are 13 so poor that their entire incomes are insufficient 14 to pay for a decent place to live. 15 And in Pennsylvania, 40 percent of 16 all renter families are unable to afford a 17 one-bedroom apartment, 48 percent are unable to 18 afford a two-bedroom. 19 This means that renter families, 20 without housing assistance such as Section 8, are 21 forced to forego other necessities such as food, 22 clothing, and medical care, just to pay the rent. 23 Since 1983, the private rental market 24 for affordable housing has shrunk by more than 20 25 percent, and landlords very often cannot afford to 153 RESOLUTION 970558 cover their costs at the level of rents needed for low-income families. The result is growth in the substandard housing or slum market. Slums mean that children live without heat, electricity, and running water. They live with high levels of lead. They live with rodents and insects and other dangerous housing conditions. And we pay, as these children are unable to attend school steadily, do homework, are plagued by health problems, or are killed by faulty heaters, wiring, fires, or their homes falling down around them. The Section 8 program, just to make sure everybody is focused on why we are here, effectively and directly addresses this housing affordability problem. And I am glad to hear that a number of you have all repeated that you are not talking about trying to fight or to lose the program. Because loss of this program would immediately cause more people to become homeless. It is a necessary program, which, if anything, let me say it, should be expanded. Number three, my third point, Section 154 RESOLUTION 970558 is a program that benefits the private rental market. It makes it possible for private landlords to stay in business in Philadelphia. Without it, we would have more disinvestment and more housing abandonment. Similarly, increased emphasis on clusters will put mom-and-pop property managers out of business. As a tenants' rights advocate, it is very unusual for me to stand before you and say that landlords need Section 8. And certainly we need good landlords, and we need to hold landlords accountable. I am so glad to hear people besides us talking about slum landlords and opportunistic landlords.
But there are good landlords in this program, and there are landlords who depend on this program. One landlord who I spoke with, who was unable to attend today because of the kind of scheduling conflicts here, said that he, quite simply, would not be in business without Section 8. His observation is that people can't afford the rent, and that he would not be able to command the rents he needs to stay in business. 155 RESOLUTION 970558 Without Section 8, he would be forced to sell his properties and go out of business in Philadelphia. Four, the Section 8 program costs the city very little, while providing housing for a lot of people. And if the Section 8 program were to be reduced in size or eliminated, the city could never, ever pick up the tab for housing even a quarter of the people who would be displaced by it. Fifth point, Section 8 helps people.
Could you make that point again? Because people think that individuals who are in Section 8 are really getting off and living a life of Riley out there, and really benefitting, and that the city, and that the city and the federal government, is giving away this money to these folks. But without the understanding that if this program was not in place, the city, the city's -- not the federal government, but the city -- cost would be incredibly high. Would you just re-emphasize that 156 RESOLUTION 970558 point?
Well, for instance, the cost of shelter for one night for one person is $11. So that means, for a month for a family of three, it is about $1,080, and for a year it would be $13,000 a year. I multiplied that by 11,000. And it seemed to me the tab for sheltering all those people would be half a billion dollars. And if only half of the Section 8 people were to become homeless, the tab for the city to shelter them would still be about $70 million. So that means that even if percent 15 of the people who currently get Section 8 were to 16 become homeless, it would cost about $35 million to 17 shelter them. 18 In other words, we simply could not 19 afford to do it. We would be looking at a situation 20 of tent cities and homeless people in even larger 21 numbers. 22
We could close 23 recreation centers; we could close the libraries, we 24 could close all these other programs and so on -- 25
Well, true. Section 8 is a very effective program in breaking the cycle of homelessness and poverty for people. I could give you 100 stories of people who have come through our transitional housing program and gone into Section 8 whose lives are now dramatically different. One of my favorite stories is Sandy, who was in the shelter for a long time. She is in Section 8 now. Her kids are doing great. She is working two full-time jobs. Still has no benefits because they are both considered to be temporary jobs. But she has managed to get herself off of Welfare. Her kids are doing great, she is doing great but she still can't afford to live without Section 8. Marlena, who is another one who has come out of our program. She used the time that she was into Section 8 to get job training. She now has a good job and is making some money. 158 RESOLUTION 970558 But for people that come out of homelessness, it takes time to rebound, to take care of credit problems, to get your utilities back on track, to get your family stabilized, to get set up in a community. It takes time. And Section 8 really helps to stabilize people. I guess the one thing that I would say is that, if it were possible for people who need services to get services while they are in Section 11 8, I think that that would be a good thing. I don't think that they should be inflicted upon people who are doing well. But if people need help, we ought to provide them the help that they need. Sixth point. Clustering people in Section 8, I think, is just a dumb idea. Clustering, I think, as many people have said, is dumb. It is a failed public policy. I think to replicate a failed public policy is dumb. In addition, I think it is discriminatory. I think it violates Civil Rights law. And I think that we should be moving to integrate our communities and build on the 159 RESOLUTION 970558 wonderful diversity that we have in the city, and not to further segregate people. And my final point is that I do agree that Section 8 needs to be reformed. As a housing provider and advocate, I could probably tell you a lot of stories about some of the problems with Section 8. There clearly needs to be tighter control, tighter administration, better inspection process, case management for people who need it. This program ought to work better than it does. At the Tenants' Action Group we run a rent subsidy and housing counseling program that doesn't have a lot of the problems that this program has, and that's because it is very closely monitored. And I don't think that there is any reason why this program can't be more responsive to people's concerns, and still accomplish its basic goal.
Miss Hersh, to sum it up in a nutshell, this program should work a lot better than it does. Explain that to me. I mean, it obviously doesn't work. Because there are people down here on both sides that are for and some are against. And, by the way, I agree with you, the program should work. But could you explain to everybody here what you meant by that?
Because your group monitors the people you put in it; is that what you are telling me?
No. We run a comparable type of program, only for a much shorter term.
Yes. We have monthly 161 RESOLUTION 970558 contact. We make home visits. People have case management where they have weekly contact, they have a plan for making some progress. This is what we do.
And that's the point I want to make. See this empty chair, this could represent the people from PHA that are not here today. And we could ask this empty chair, why don't they do that. Because if you could do that with your small program, maybe with some more funds or money, maybe we could do that or PHA could do that, and then we wouldn't be having all these problems. I mean, we can sit here all day and listen to the same testimonies over and over again. Terry Gillen struck a point and you struck a point. I am listening to this all. It is a good program if they monitor it. Who are we going to ask those questions? Don't ask Ortiz, DiCicco, or Mariano. Ask PHA, and they are not here. So if you can do it at your level, and I was working for PHA, and I was sitting over 162 RESOLUTION 970558 here in this seat, I would say, "Certainly, Councilman, Miss Hersh, we could do it, if we had enough money and enough people inspecting this program." Right? I mean, if I was the king of the world and I said, "Liz, you are in charge of PHA starting tomorrow" --
Well, besides that. Let's pretend you are a masochist and you want to do this.
Let's pretend you are. You think you could do it, with the right amount of funds, because the program works if it is watched.
I think there are also some regulatory barriers that have to be dealt with.
Then we go to the guys that pass the regulations. There was a Congressman that was sitting right there who is willing to help. There is another Congressman that I talked to two days ago 163 RESOLUTION 970558 that's introducing legislation. I mean, we see a problem, we take time, we attack the problem. Nobody is here.
But the essence, Councilman, is not as the Mayor has asked Congressman Borski to actually begin clustering people. That is not the answer to Section 8. The answer to Section 8 is to continue -- and I think as Terry Gillen said before -- to integrate the people in this city into the neighborhoods, and to make sure that the different governmental agencies do the job that they are supposed to do. I think there are some problems. But overall do you believe the program is working, Liz?
Yes, I do. Our experience is that it works very well. I think there are problems. I think the problems are fixable. I think they are largely administrative. I think they should be fixed. I mean, it can be a very frustrating program to work with. And they ought to work more closely with the city, with the shelter system, with the Office of Housing, which currently is -- there 164 RESOLUTION 970558 really isn't the level of coordination that there needs to be. So I think we do need to make some progress. I just want to make sure the baby doesn't get tossed out with the bath water.
I think we have some bad landlords, but I think we have a great majority of the landlords in the program who are landlords that work very well with the program. Is that your experience? Because you have more experience in this than any of us here at this table.
Our experience is that there are good landlords. And our experience is, also, when you are paying the rent, you can command quality and conformity from landlords. All you have to do is say you are not going to pay the rent or you are not going to send them any more tenants. And you would be amazed at how quickly they can get those repairs and get the trash out on the right day, or whatever it is. This isn't rocket science; this is managing well. 165 RESOLUTION 970558
Yes. George with Community Legal Services. As Liz from the Tenant Action Group, we have also been very involved with the Section 8 program. And I really reiterate much of what she has said, that the program is a very good program, it has some problems, and they need to be corrected. Part of the problem, much of it has already been mentioned. One of them is inspections. They have very few inspections, and often properties go uninspected. And that, combined with problems with our Department of License & Inspections, who also should be inspecting these properties. These properties are not --
These properties are not immune to our local code enforcement system. We have those problems. We also have problems with responsiveness of Administration or the agency who handles Section 8. And sometimes it is difficult just to get through to them to get answers to questions. And, as you mentioned, there are problems with landlords. And I would agree, despite the fact that we represent many of the tenants, that there are problems with tenants. But I think, given that, it is a very important program. It gives people the opportunity to live where they want, assuming they have a landlord willing to participate in the program. People have talked about social services. I think as Liz has said, it is very important that tenants be offered social services, if they need them. There has been a crying lack of real social services for public housing tenants and for tenants living in Section 8. And for those tenants 167 RESOLUTION 970558 who are in great need of those services, they certainly should be made available. But I think overall the program has worked. It has met a tremendous housing need. The problem with Section 8, there are nowhere near enough Section 8 certificates and vouchers to go around. The housing affordability crisis in this city is tremendous. And the number of people who are eligible for the subsidy, because of the limited nature of the subsidy and because Congress has not come up with new subsidies, just prevents many, many people from getting onto this program.
So we should be expanding the program, not shrinking it?
That's absolutely correct. The program needs to be expanded. I think the inspection process needs to be tightened up. We need to make sure that there are not landlords who are participating in the program who are not doing it, in effect, just to get money and not provide services. I do agree with you there are some 168 RESOLUTION 970558 good landlords who participate in the program. But there are certainly landlords who are involved who are just out to get the dollar and do not put anything back into the property.
I think what people don't understand is around 1981, 1980, myself, you, and other attorneys, we managed to put one of those very bad Section 8 landlords in jail because he was hustling monies off Section 8 of tenants at Regent Street, up there.
So, in essence, what we have is some managerial aspects that need to be addressed, that need to be done. And I think we can do it with PHA, once we get them here. And they will be here. Okay?
I am disabled. I got cerebral palsy. I am on a limited income. I am in an apartment that I cannot afford. I pay 495, plus utilities. And I only get 511.40 a month. And I called Mr. Kenney's office. He 170 RESOLUTION 970558 told me to -- whoever works in the office with him told me to apply for a Section 8 in a retirement home and see if I could get Section 8 through there. And I am only 28 years old. And I don't think that's right, for a handicapped person to be on a wait list for three years so far to try and get on Section 8. I haven't gotten on it yet. I don't think it is right that I be on a wait list because I am handicapped. I do have a 13-month-old child at home, and I am on a limited income. I can't afford my apartment. I need outside help from my family, my friends, and so forth. And I think Section 8 should be available to people who really need it at this time.
And I know there are a lot of Russians on it that lives in my community. And, I mean, I live in Little Russia. But that's how I feel. Because I live in Greater Northeast, by George Washington High School. And before that I 171 RESOLUTION 970558 lived in a $300 apartment, one bedroom. And I felt like I was -- my landlord was a slumlord. Because he doesn't even come out to inspect it for the two years I was living there. I told him the roof was leaking and this and that, and he never came out. He sent someone else to fix it, and they never fixed it. So now I am like, I moved out of there, now I moved into something I really can't afford. So I need Section 8.
What you are expressing is what we have in this city. We have an incredible housing need for moderate-income individuals and for individuals such as yourself. And obviously, you know, this program is supposed to be there in order to do that. Any help that we can give, besides Councilman Kenney and myself and so on, will be available to you. All right?
I am President 172 RESOLUTION 970558 of HAPCO. I represent some 3,000 landlords. A dirty word, as I have been hearing this morning. However, we must remember there are good landlords, there are bad landlords. There are good tenants, there are bad tenants. However, the bad in each case is a very, very small percentage. There is a great misunderstanding going on, as I understand it and see it this morning. Lack of knowledge. I would wish that the group this morning, very frankly, was still here. Maybe they would get a better understanding of what this whole program is all about. I heard the Councilman at one point talk about the houses in one block at $600 a 17 month. 18 The question that went through my 19 mind, not that the owner have 20 houses, but are the 20 20 on Section 8? We are dealing with Section 8. And 600 in some cases, a lot of areas, is not nothing like top money. Now, when we talk about clustering, whosever brain storm that was would say, well, we will put it 40 or 50 poor people together. 173 RESOLUTION 970558 I thought you tried to get rid of the projects stacked on top of each other? You blew them up, now you want to build some more mini-projects. (Applause.)
They don't take under consideration -- I think the question was asked the price of units. A three-bedroom unit, fair market value, is $881 per month. Two-bedroom is 704.
That is the market value, not depending on the neighborhood. CHAIRMAN KENNEY: Let me interrupt you, in all fairness. The neighborhood that I live in, that has smaller, three-bedroom homes, on smaller streets, do not get anywhere near $800 a month. This is in South Philadelphia. This is South Philadelphia, east of Broad Street, South of Washington Avenue. I think you would average probably between 500 and 550 a month. As a matter of fact, I own a 174 RESOLUTION 970558 two-bedroom house -- which is the biggest mistake I ever made, but that's besides the point. I own a two-bedroom house which I rent to senior citizens for $300 a month. And haven't raised the rent in ten years because I didn't want to lose the tenants, and they are nice people, and I pay my mortgage with that. And I pay the mortgage off on the house with the rental. But two-bedroom houses and three-bedrooms houses in that neighborhood are getting 500. They are not getting anywhere near 600 a month.
You are right, Councilman. I would like for everybody to understand, if these new projects are built, they would probably be rented on a three-bedroom base, somewhere in the 900 value. Because, number one, I believe they would jump up and ask for 110 percent, which means they would get 881 plus 10 percent because of the cost of the building. I have units, and my number is 184 with Section 8. I think now landlords are like 175 RESOLUTION 970558 10,000. So that tells you how far I go back. I have units that are less than $500. Now we can rent three bedrooms, two of them, for the price of one. And somebody said we're getting too much money. My memberships' complaint is they don't want to be in Section 8 now for one reason. And the one reason is the reason you have been kicking Section 8 around this morning, inspections. I disagree with you that they are not inspected. They can write a list of inspections, and put a leaking spigot on there. And if you don't repair the spigot in the time they will be back, you just got abated. They're not blowing money away. That issue never came up this morning. They will take your money away like that. And don't anybody kid yourself. The next thing is, it is very easy to make a man -- I disagree with any landlord, whether he be a member of my organization or not, that doesn't pay his taxes and water. Just as easy as Section 8 asks for a rental license before you get paid, they can just as 176 RESOLUTION 970558 easily ask for the tax receipt and the water bill. It doesn't take an order of Congress for that. Just ask for it. That's the fastest way in the world for a man to pay up to that $5,000 or whatever the issue may be. There are a couple of more. They were saying, I think I heard earlier in the morning, that, you know, you just turn people away. Have any of these people heard of discrimination? I mean, we just can't go turning tenants away that qualify. There's nothing like getting sued for discrimination against tenants. Section 8 also seems, you know -- we are talking Section 8 -- Section 8 is a very small amount or number of units in rental properties in this city. My organization represents, or the members of my organization provide, between 55 and 60 percent of the low- and moderate-income housing in the city. But it is not a great percentage of that that's Section 8. So the program is a good program, as far as I am concerned. It is a needed program. 177 RESOLUTION 970558 It is one of the first times that my organization have just about agreed with the two previous speakers, that would be Liz and George. We are always on a different side of the fence. But today, when it is needed to be together, we are are together. They quoted possibly the very same things that I would like to say. The inspection, as I said, if you don't get it done, you are cut. So that there is a reason for a high rent in Section 8 in any neighborhood. First of all, it is a better property. Nobody can walk down the street and tell me, oh, that's a Section 8 because the paint is coming off. That's the biggest lie in the book. Section 8 make you scrape paint in the middle of the wintertime. And if you don't, as I said, you are abating, you don't get paid. And you are in the business to get paid. You are in the business to make money. The other reason that the rents should be higher -- not could be, should be higher -- because, for your information, Section 8 inspections are worst than L & I's. L & I will let 178 RESOLUTION 970558 you get away with some things Section 8 won't let you get away with. So gentlemen, ladies, that's about it. I guess we better keep the program. Need it, need it bad. You can't pay for homeless people. Thank you. (Applause.)
Any questions? One question. I think Miss Hersh and Mr. Gould said that if Section 8 was not around, that many of these landlords would just go out of business.
And is there a market that will take over those houses in order, and come in? Or what will happen to those homes?
Some of the landlords are getting away, as I said, because of the inspection. However, as I said, that's something I never worried about. I kind of look back at a landlord when he said, well, they are too steep, they are too this. I have always told men when they are 179 RESOLUTION 970558 working, "Act like I'm going to live here," meaning I want it like I will walk in. I carpet my units. I rent other units for families. So when you upgrade a unit higher than the norm, you expect to get paid higher than the norm. So, but to answer your question, yes, some of them would just be out of business.
Rosemary Farnon, Mary Burrell, Judith Gorski, George Reed. CHAIRMAN KENNEY: Good afternoon. Thank you for waiting. Please identify yourself for the record and proceed.
Good afternoon, Councilman Kenney. My name is Rosemary Farnon, F-A-R-N-O-N. And I am the President of the Juniata Park Civic Association, and I am a resident of the 3900 block of Glendale Street. I come to you this afternoon as both a resident and President of the Juniata Park Civic Association. 180 RESOLUTION 970558 I live in zip code 19124, where there are approximately 381 occupied Section 8 houses to date. Total number of homes in my community, Juniata, in a three and a half block radius, are 34 homes and several apartment units, with more to come. We have the Carl Mackley Apartments, which is 140 units, which are now under construction to be 50 percent new certificates of Section 8, plus existing Section 8 tenants will be welcomed to our neighborhood. I come to you not against the Section 15 8 program, but to say that the Section 8 program is much needed in the City of Philadelphia. Everyone deserves a place to live. We cannot always live where we would like, but, unfortunately, we do deserve a place to live. I believe that the problem lies within the concept of the unit, the family unit. One who comes into a property, such as a three-bedroom home, that I have had the experience to live when my neighbors moved into a three-bedroom home with a mother and two children 181 RESOLUTION 970558 and another young female. When my neighbor disappeared seven months into the program and we began to question what happened to her and her two children to her sister, we were met with resistance. When we reached out to PHA and asked them to give us an explanation of what might have happened to my neighbor, who was a good neighbor, we were told that under the guidelines of Section 8 housing, through PHA, that the tenant was allowed to leave that site for six months, and leave her sister in the care of that property, because the tenant's sister's children were on-site. That was not true. Numerous calls to PHA met with much resistance. When we located the owner of the property and told him about different quality-of-life issues that affected not only myself, but my neighbors, we once again were met with resistance. The pavements were not shoveled in the winter. The trash was not put out accordingly on our trash day. The porch was not swept. These are all quality-of-life issues. Councilman Kenney and your panel, who 182 RESOLUTION 970558 I am sorry decided to meet other commitments, we have to say that, as going through the records, we have seen numerous properties that are owned by one or two landlords throughout the Juniata Park section. I myself have gone through, I have looked at the properties. They meet the bare-bones guidelines of the federal government -- no lead paint, no broken windows, no exposed wires -- but they do not meet what every neighborhood wants, quality-of-life issues. We are not asking for Anderson windows; we are just asking for nice properties and people who are ready to accept the same responsibility as a homeowner. We welcome anyone into our neighborhood. We believe that clustered housing will not work. The projects didn't work. Scattered housing will work with monitoring. 11 inspectors? That doesn't cut it here. I had the opportunity to stay home while the property next door was inspected by -- recently for a new tenant. Inside of three minutes, 183 RESOLUTION 970558 from the time the door opened until the time the door closed, he was out the door. And the property was, quote, unquote, inspected. Unbenownst to the inspector, the wires, yes, they were all covered with switch plates, but the electric was being ran by a generator in the garage because the electric had not been turned on yet properly by the Philadelphia Electric Company. I have pictures. But like everyone says, a picture is worth a thousand words. We now in our community meeting have realized that, yes, there are a number of houses in Juniata which are for sale, mainly because our neighborhood was an older community.
And if they have died, their houses are left to their children, who choose not to live there as in days gone by. So what we are going to do now, it has been decided, as to come February, we will be distributing a Good Neighbor Handbook. No one will be excluded from the rules and regulations of the Good Neighbor Handbook. In that handbook it will tell you, as a good neighbor, what you should do, when your trash 184 RESOLUTION 970558 is, what your cars should have when you bring your car to our neighborhood, whether you are a homeowner or a renter or a Section 8 or just a squatter, maybe. What you should bring with you. Have your car done within the guidelines of a law. If it is inspected and has a legal tag on it, you are welcome to leave it on our streets. If not, don't bring it with you. If you live there and our trash day is Tuesday, please put your trash out after dusk Monday night. Don't put it out all week long, because it is not going to be accepted. You will find in that Good Neighbor package all the people who represent you on the city, state, and federal level. You will find out where you can get help with your energy assistance, where you can get help from the police, sanitation, where you can get help with child care, where you can get just about everything else, from recreations to medical needs, from our community. We will also list our elected officials and what their responsibilities are. Not only our district Councilperson, but those who are 185 RESOLUTION 970558 elected to represent us, Council-at-large. By that we feel we will bring better neighbors and better responsibility, and everyone will know the guidelines before they choose to live and raise their children in Juniata. Thank you, Mr. Kenney and your panel. CHAIRMAN KENNEY: Thank you very much for your testimony. Could you characterize your opinion of the response of the Philadelphia Housing Authority to specific complaints about either housing code violations or social problems that arise as a result of tenant behavior, or the lack of landlord responsibility in mitigating complaints?
When I contacted -- this is my personal experience. And I can only speak of my personal experience. Out of concern for the safety of the two children who lived next door to me, I found it necessary to find out where the holder of that certificate had gone with her two children. The certificate was issued to a single woman with two children. 186 RESOLUTION 970558 They told me politely, after they contacted the landlord, that she had gone to take care of an ailing mother, and left her two children on-site. They would not -- PHA said to me, well, that is not a PHA problem; that is a Department of Health and Human Services problem. CHAIRMAN KENNEY: Was that information referred to DHS?
Well, let me tell you, once the owner of the property was notified and I began to question the owner -- because I or my neighbors cannot understand the concept. If someone is given a certificate to provide a roof over their head and shelter from inclement weather, why, when they leave, that certificate does not go with them. Why someone is allowed to stay in that property, who is an able-bodied person, to take care of that property for six months, with a certificate -- which is very hard to get. We have heard people say that here today -- which that certificate was given to a mother and two small children, should be given to a healthy female to 187 RESOLUTION 970558 party all day, all night, not go to work, come in, and come out at the taxpayers' expense. CHAIRMAN KENNEY: Are there --
Fell on deaf ears. CHAIRMAN KENNEY: What is the current condition of the property as we speak?
As we speak now, the property has just been recently rented to another family, a woman and four small children. That's the house to the right of me. I have four Section 8 properties on my street. The house to the rear of me has been rented to a woman, single woman, with three small children. There are other people who stay in the house weeks at a time to the rear of me, and on other sites. But that's permitted under what they call, quote, unquote, the family fiber, which people -- and if you look at the map here, which is blocked now by this screen, which I believe my friends in Mayfair and Lawndale and Northwood and above, have a difficult time understanding the concept because it is new to us. 188 RESOLUTION 970558 I read in an article in the paper where Mr. Kromer said that they are willing to come out to speak to people to explain what the Section 8 program is all about. But I know not of one time that he has come out to speak to anyone. So maybe we are a little bit ignorant. When you look at the zip codes for the upper part of 19124 and 34 up above, it is because this program is new and people are in fear of what might happen. When you look at real estate -- I would have to say that the real estate next door to me, when this property landlord was first questioned by me, he told me I should be lucky. If I keep it up, he will give me a worse tenant. Unfortunately, maybe I worked myself through the system. If PHA ignored the complaints, then I went to the Department of License & Inspections to make the system work for me. That doesn't mean everyone knows how to do that. CHAIRMAN KENNEY: Had there ever been contemplation of reporting or filing a Complaint with the United States Justice Department about the attitude and comments of the landlord? 189 RESOLUTION 970558 Because some of those comments, if they are accurate -- and I have no reason to doubt that they are not -- are in fact true, that's the kind of a violation that the federal government would investigate as it relates to potential block-busting and other types of activities to intimidate neighbors into selling their properties, or to intimidate neighbors into not complaining about obvious things that are going on in their street. That is a practice that I have found with a couple landlords in South Philadelphia, who have a similar attitude about this program and about the neighbors and the community. Basically the threat was, if you don't like it, you can sell your house to me and I will convert it to a Section 8 property. Those kinds of comments are violations of federal law under the block-busting issues. And I am wondering whether or not you would look at filing a Complaint or letter to the U.S. Justice Department about that kind of activity, because that is unwarranted. 190 RESOLUTION 970558
Yes, it is. But outside of causing a ruckus, Councilman Kenney -- I will be very honest with you -- we welcome everyone into our community, as well as I welcome anyone to live to the right of me or to the left of me. Neighbors are neighbors, regardless of their color or their ethnic origin. Neighbors are neighbors. And I would like to live together very happily, happily ever after. Because I have reached the end of my purse strings, so I will be in Juniata until the day the Lord decides to take me home. We realize that Section 8 is up and coming, it has been around for a long time, it is not going anywhere. We realize that. We cannot have people on the street. But not only for ourselves as neighbors, people who have made investments in buying a home. We are asking for those people who are the recipients of Section 8 certificates be given exactly what they deserve, a decent home. Everything that I have in my house, they should be allowed to have. 191 RESOLUTION 970558 Because my neighbor could not always meet her commitment of her 30 percent of the rent that she had to pay, she would not call him up and ask him to fix the toilet. She wouldn't call him up and say, "Listen, I know it is not needed that we have screens on the house. But I have two small children; fresh air is important." She would not do that because she knew that he would ask her to leave that property. CHAIRMAN KENNEY: Thank you very much for your testimony.
It is more than a question for Mrs. Farnon. It is more of a statement. Mrs. Farnon, you talked about your Good Neighbor Handbook. And Terry Gillen spoke a few speakers ago, and she talked about a sociologist William Julius Wilson, or what he called social organization. By the way, I am the district Councilman that represents her area. I know the good work she does. But you and Terry are saying the same thing. Terry, she quoted this Julius Wilson and 192 RESOLUTION 970558 social organization. It defines the ability of residents to maintain effective social control, when the informal network that binds people in most neighborhoods does not exist. That's what you do. Now, as you talked about how the neighborhood changed, and it changed quick, and you welcome everybody to that neighborhood, you are absolutely right. If it wasn't for your organization, your civic group, and people like you, that see this, see the big picture at the end here, and see that people have to learn things that they necessarily didn't learn -- and it is probably a pain in the rearend for you to do all these things. But I would just like to commend you and your organization for the help you give me. But for what you saw here -- and maybe you listened to what Terry said. It is all the same thing. But that's what we have to do. PHA has to be responsive. They have to teach people to understand that this social organization is important, then everybody gets along fine. All the other stuff we can work out. 193 RESOLUTION 970558 We can pass laws and we can pass regulations and we can make sure they are enforced. But if we do this social organization thing, it is going to be really important to everybody. So thank you for your time.
You are welcome. And I believe a better education to all people throughout the City of Philadelphia would be an enlightening process to everyone. CHAIRMAN KENNEY: Thank you very much.
Thank you. CHAIRMAN KENNEY: Miss Burrell. Please identify yourself.
My name is Mary Burrell. And I am here to represent me. And other neighbors I have, but mainly me. I own my home. And the repairs, most repairs I make myself or I get it repaired. But my income is low, and I am sandwiched between two PHA homes. CHAIRMAN KENNEY: Not to interrupt you, but do you know whether the PHA homes are 194 RESOLUTION 970558 Section 8 properties or PHA scattered site or HUD properties?
I am not too sure. CHAIRMAN KENNEY: You can give the addresses to our staff privately, and we can determine exactly what the property is.
But I do know that I have no one to call when I need help, you see. I ask my neighbors not to sit on my steps. And for that, they tore my steps up. I have to repair this. No one is going to repair this for me. Everyone is worrying about them. I didn't bother these people. I also have my bell ring. I mean, this is harassment because I don't want people on my property. When it snows, I shovel theirs. They don't shovel mine. It doesn't matter. But it has to be done, so I shovel theirs. You talk about good neighbor policy. I think they need to learn that. I mean, if your rent is being paid or subsidized for you, that's a privilege. And I can't see where there is a right. 195 RESOLUTION 970558 I have a right to be as happy as anyone else, without harassment. We have -- in the summertime we have to close our door because of dog do piled up three deep. I mean, in the summertime. And that's bad. And there is just no accountability. You understand? No accountability. I can't do things because I own my home. I can't do things to other people that they can do to me. They can walk away from theirs. And I wouldn't do it anyway. But to destroy my property because I asked you not to sit on my steps, that foul language that comes up to my bedroom, the smoking of the reefer, the selling of the beer. If they sell beer and they make a profit, why should my property be destroyed? Are they going to be paying mine? So I am here to ask someone if they can help me. See, I didn't know about all these other problems. I am listing some things I knew about. I am here to represent me. And these things are happening, I 196 RESOLUTION 970558 have no one to call. I call, I get the run-around. And I am just here to represent me. CHAIRMAN KENNEY: What I would suggest for you to do is, before you leave, Mr. O'Connor, John --
I had to take my neighbor to court. I took my neighbor to court. And she didn't even bother to show up. And then they gave her another date, she still didn't show up. And going to court you think it would stop, but it hasn't. CHAIRMAN KENNEY: What I would suggest doing before you leave today is to make sure you give Mr. O'Connor the addresses of the properties you are concerned about. We will determine what the condition of the property is from its status, whether it is a regular renter, Section 8 tenant, or a HUD property, or a scattered site property. And we will try to address those problems in conjunction with PHA and the police department and License & Inspections. And if you can give him that information before you leave today, we will be happy 197 RESOLUTION 970558 to look into that for you. Thank you for coming in and thank you for waiting. Ma'am.
Hi. I am Victoria Westifer. I am the tenant on top of Victoria Chaney. I have been trying to get on Section 10 8 for seven years. I am visually impaired. I have arthritis all through my body. Every time I call, they say it is closed. The last time I called they told me it was all sewed up because in our area we have the Russians, and they are on Section 8 housing. My landlady is already approved to accept Section 8 housing. She has even called on numerous occasions to try and get it through so I would be able to afford my rent. I live on a limited income. I live on SSI. I have been told from agency to agency, "Move if you can't afford it." I can't afford to move. How could I afford to move, to get the money up to move? Where I have been at my place for 198 RESOLUTION 970558 seven years. I am now attached to it. I know everybody in my house. With my condition, I can wake up tomorrow morning and be totally blind. CHAIRMAN KENNEY: What do you pay a month in rent?
I pay 495. In fact, my landlady just sent her papers back in to be reinstated, or whatever they do. And I heard all morning long about these landlords that gouge the system, that want eight and nine hundred dollars. She wrote exactly what she wants, 495. She has never raised it another penny. I have to pay my rent one month, I have to pay my utilities the next month, which makes me constantly a month behind. I have already had my gas turned off. My electric is in the process of being turned off. I have been thrown off of all the low-income plans because you have to pay them every month. I can't do it. They don't want to hear it. CHAIRMAN KENNEY: It is sad that PHA 199 RESOLUTION 970558 is not here today to respond to these specific complaints. I don't have an answer for you today as to accessibility to the program and other help that you may need, or you obviously need, to help you survive. What I would suggest you to do, too, again, is talk to Mr. O'Connor before you leave. And we will try to get an answer from PHA for you. I don't know if it is going to be an adequate answer, but we will certainly try to get one.
Some is better than none. CHAIRMAN KENNEY: If they were here today, maybe they could respond. But they are not. So if you could see Mr. O'Connor on the way out, and make sure he gets your name and phone number and address, and we will see what we can do to investigate that situation.
Thank you. I would really appreciate it. CHAIRMAN KENNEY: Sir.
My name is George 200 RESOLUTION 970558 Reed. I am from the Juniata section, which you just heard from my Committeewoman. Since the neighborhood has changed, I believe people have the right to live where they live, where they want to live, as long as they want to live decently. This is my problem. Next door to me, I have a Latino living next door to me. They say she qualifies. She qualifies to ruin the quality of my life? Is that what she qualifies for? The property is falling apart. I tried to find out who owns the property. The real estate that did have it says they don't handle it no 15 more. I says, "Well, tell me who handles it." They don't know. This is what I get. This tenant has a loud, foul, filthy mouth. She don't work. The property is falling apart. She throws her garbage on the lawn. I told her not to do this. She says nobody is going to tell her what to do. Men and women, men especially, run in and out of this place day and night. Every day you see a different automobile pulling up, different 201 RESOLUTION 970558 license plates. I don't know what the hell is going on with them. But I can't -- I cannot get no 4 satisfaction. But the thing is, the quality of my neighborhood is down. The quality of my life has went down. CHAIRMAN KENNEY: Let me ask you a question. Have you been able to determine for sure that this is a Section 8 property?
I don't know. I don't know whether it is Section 8 or an unscrupulous real estate moved her in there, or whatever. It is an apartment. I live in a nice house. I keep my house that way. CHAIRMAN KENNEY: How long have you lived in your home?
38 years. And the value of this property is going to go down the sewer because of what is going on in Juniata Park. Now, tell me what's wrong with this story. My youngest daughter is a nurse. She works hard, very hard. She is divorced. 202 RESOLUTION 970558 She lives in a little apartment up in the Northeast, trying to raise a son, put him through school. She can't afford to rent a house or buy one because she is paying student loans off. I help her out as much as I could. The two properties at the end of her block -- I said properties, not apartments -- guess what they are? Section 8. And that's wrong. That's criminal. That's all I got to say about it. CHAIRMAN KENNEY: Thank you very much for coming in. Miss Ali, Sabrina Cason Gloria Blackman, Leona Smith, Arthur Green. Good afternoon, ladies. Please identify yourself for the record.
My name is Leona Smith. I am President of the National Union of the Homeless and Executive Director of the Employment Project. CHAIRMAN KENNEY: Please proceed.
Thank you. Many of the students that we train 203 RESOLUTION 970558 that is currently living in the shelter system have moved on to be eligible for Section 8 certificates. During the time, on the average, we service about 2,000 different individuals for low income -- eligible for low-income housing, which we also do from my office. Many of the complaints, it is based on the realtors not fixing up the properties and demanding rent in the process. Most are afraid that if they do not pay their rent, that they have no rights, and automatically they will be kicked out. We have had some to even go to court who has held up their rent based on the landlord not fixing their properties. And, as a result, the courts ruled against their favor. And, as a result, that they had to return back to homelessness. This is constant. Because when you are a tenant and you go before the courts, very seldom the courts rule in your favor, which is a very, very serious problem. We have been -- I have seen clusterization, is a form of racism, 204 RESOLUTION 970558 discrimination. To put people into one concentrated area, again, leaves us powerless and hopeless. I think the solution -- and we all heard the problems today -- we wrote the job training program for public housing. Because it didn't take a rocket scientist to know that you could create jobs within public housing and scattered site. Our organization wrote that for public housing. We are willing to sit down to the table -- and I think so often we are left out of the process, where we can sit down to the table -- collectively, in an unified manner, to look at ways that we collectively can figure out the solution to the problems, rather than, say, put that person on an island somewhere, and we can ignore the problem, as opposed to throwing that person out of the unit. And it works both ways. It works both ways. " And that is what's going on. Which is a form of racism and discrimination. Many of the areas -- I have lived 205 RESOLUTION 970558 down -- I am from 4th and Reed, 4th and Washington Avenue. And I heard some of the folks here that came from that community and that neighborhood. And what I am proposing -- there is nothing down there. There is nothing down there to bring that community together whereas culturally that we can understand one another. And it is a cultural process to understand me and for me to understand you outside of our race. And that's what it boils down to to me. And when I look at, even for the children, there is nothing down there to bring the children together, that can then perhaps bring the parents together. Our children have no playgrounds, they have nothing down there in the community. So, as a result of it, what you tend to do is look at faults from each other. So I think more services need to be provided. I have said this to the City of Philadelphia, which we wrote most of the shelter policies for the city. Including the savings policy, where the city -- you know, person could 206 RESOLUTION 970558 then be able to save their money in order to move out of the shelter and to be eligible for home ownership, as well as rental. We wrote that for the City of Philadelphia. The problem that we are faced, as I see it today, is, we cannot no longer look at a piece of the pie. But we have to look at the overall of an individual that makes them whole. You cannot wait until a person goes into public housing or Section 8 or scattered sites, and expect them to do a 360-degree turn-around for all the things that the community expects for them to live by. There is a process. And I think it has to come from the front door, rather than the back door. I think the city should be involved in creating a training process. Whereas, when a person is eligible, that they are clear about what they are supposed to do, rather than wait until they get there and then tell them. It has to be done, straight from OSHA's perspective and PHA.
I have designed a program from John White, when he first took office, about tenants' 207 RESOLUTION 970558 eligibility going into public housing. He took part of it that benefited PHA, but he didn't take all of it. So I think that it needs to be redesigned. And I think clusterization for our people will never, ever be the solution to the problem. Thank you. CHAIRMAN KENNEY: Let me ask you a question about the issue of clustering. And I tend to agree that the issue of clustering is antithetical to people integrating into the community and learning to or becoming part of the community, as opposed to isolating people. In some of the areas of formerly homeless individuals who are involved with either -- or have been involved in their life with either drug or alcohol addiction or mental illness, which is a large portion of a lot of the people who find themselves homeless, one of the -- again, we have talked about this in the hallway -- successful projects I find is 1515 Fairmount, is Project Home. And the thing that impresses me the most about Project Home is a couple of things. Primarily, it is a permanent solution 208 RESOLUTION 970558 to those individuals' housing needs. It is not a transitional shelter approach, but it is a permanent, for the rest of their life. 32 people, I believe, are living in decent, clean, safe housing that gives them the support mechanisms that they need to help each other succeed. And the support mechanisms, from my view of being over there, is the ongoing business of the restaurant, the Back Home Cafe, the book store, which also provides people an opportunity to earn a living, and also the clothing operation, that is, takes clothing, repairs or whatever, and then makes -- excuse me. I am going to have to ask the conversation over there to cease. We can't pay attention. And the clothing operation, which provides three ongoing businesses. Plus the ability for people to live together and support each other who have special needs. I am not talking about people overall in the Section 8 program, but special needs, formerly homeless people, who now find an opportunity to lean on each other in a clean, safe, 209 RESOLUTION 970558 permanent environment. In those instances, would some type of clustering, for those individual people, make sense, as opposed to trying to impose this on everyone in the program? Because the thing, again, I find that I think makes Project Home successful is the ability for people who are there to rely on each other for their special needs. And that's the kind of long-term permanent solutions I think there is to our homeless situation, as opposed to some of the warehousing stuff that we have been doing, which really hasn't worked at all.
I agree with you. Having worked with Project Home over the years has adopted the model that our organization had many, many years ago, not to create a dependency. We are -- and I was the director of the only shelter in the country that was run by homeless people. And Project Home took a lot of the model ideas from our shelter and put it into permanent housing, which made it work. And that is -- what you see at 1515 210 RESOLUTION 970558 Fairmount is not only people working together, but also have an input. And I think that is equally as important. 1515 is not run by just Sister Mary. It is run by the residents as a partnership. And I am saying that the same exact thing can be developed. Yes, they have a business. And we need to think business, and I agree with that, and not be solely dependent upon a system that's going to deteriorate anyway. But at the same token, I think with all the abandoned buildings that are standing sound structurally, deteriorating on a daily basis, that apprenticeship, such as the same one with Jimmy Carter, who got in touch with our organization when they were first starting the partnership, Sweat Equity Program, why can't the same thing be developed, even in my community, in my neighborhood? I look at -- homeless people rehabbed my house. They did my house. I didn't know what to do with it when I got my house. It was shell. But homeless people went in and rehabbed that property 211 RESOLUTION 970558 that I live in today. So what I am saying is that we are -- and I am formerly homeless myself. We are the most skillful people on God's face of the earth, if somebody will only listen to us to tell you or anybody else. And I just left Washington, D.C., with Congress. Listen to us, and we can begin to tell you some of the solutions to the problem as we see it. And then together we can look at how can this work. Resources are needed. I think housing is definitely an issue. And if we are going to be talking about people, whether they are Section 16 8 certificates or project-based certificates, or whatever the case may be, the fact of the matter is that if we don't look at job creation, if we don't focus on business, people is not going to be able to afford to pay the one-third of income, anyway. So I think what we have to begin is to look at the overall and combine it both, how do we bring jobs into the City of Philadelphia, how do we create businesses in the City of Philadelphia. But, at the same token, until the 212 RESOLUTION 970558 city and those who are in control of these resources are able to put their act in place, and not blame the victim, then I think that we have a right to live anywhere that we darn near choose to. And I think that, also, that we have a right towards subsidy until we are able to fend for ourselves. CHAIRMAN KENNEY: Thank you for your testimony. Ma'am, would you please identify yourself.
My name is Alicia Christian. I am the Executive Director of Dignity Housing, which provides housing for low-income and formerly homeless families and adults. And was, indeed, established through the advocacy of the union of the homeless and allies nearly ten years ago. I appreciate the opportunity to testify. The Dignity experience, I think, flies in the face of those who say scattered site housing doesn't work. 213 RESOLUTION 970558 We have 135 scattered site units on line with very-low-income tenants. If you look at the materials I just gave you, I included a list, which doesn't provide exact addresses or names, but lists every block and every zip code in which we have units. And we are virtually in nearly every councilmanic district. I will not say that Dignity Housing works for everyone. I will say that over the past nine years, we have served nearly a thousand families. And our rate of families or individuals who, after support, after counseling, after interventions, cannot adjust to the program requirements or the expectations in the community, the rate of those individuals not working is less than 11 percent, which people tell me is pretty good. Dignity today has more than 400 men, women, and children residing in units in West Philadelphia, South Philadelphia, North Philadelphia, Mount Airy, up by the Boulevard, near the airport, virtually in every section of the city. 214 RESOLUTION 970558 More than half of our current tenants, formerly homeless, very low income, have completed goals in a life skills plan. That life skills plan is an addendum to their lease. They pay their rent on time. They can keep their apartment nice. They can, as previous testifiers have stated, set the trash out nice and neatly on trash day. But if they fail to move forward in objectives for education, for pursuing employment readiness, for looking at job options, then they are not in compliance with life skills, and that's an evictable offense. And it is after much counseling, and much intervention, that that decision will be made. I am not suggesting that everyone who needs subsidized housing needs a life skills plan. I am not suggesting that everyone who requires subsidized housing needs intense counseling. There are some people for whom the Section 8 program is needed because of a permanent disability. There are some people for whom the Section 8 program is a passageway to another 215 RESOLUTION 970558 option. And there are some, like the Dignity tenants, who for three to six years benefit from the intense supports of our program, which have included scholarships, which have included individual mentoring. We now have tenants who are former tenants of -- we now have a number of former tenants of Dignity Housing who have obtained goals. Two are Philadelphia police officers; five have graduated from four-year colleges, including the University of Pennsylvania; 30 have completed Community College; one is a recent homeowner, though she joins approximately nearly 50 homeowners since the program started. But we are particularly proud of one tenant who bought a home that we acquired and rehabbed for sale to a first-time buyer, who happened to be a Dignity tenant. The essence of the Dignity experience is that there are no simplistic solutions. I am not in subsidized housing. I am a homeowner. But I can identify at least three neighbors on my block who I wish I had recourse for. 216 RESOLUTION 970558 Not quite bad enough for police intervention, but not quite good enough to be good neighbors. They are homeowners. It comes with the territory. Some of the issues raised by the previous testifier, some of the issues raised by the community person about fostering a good neighbor feeling and a good neighbor environment, I think, are part of the answer. The other, for some people who are tossed into subsidized housing, and really need support services, the issue is the resources for those support services should be forthcoming.
And it is more than a call once every six months. It is real, substantive services designed to help you turn your life around. Most people want to do better, and most people want to be better. Dignity Housing works. Take a look at the materials. Take a look at the zip codes. We are everywhere. And we work in every community. And we support the notion that where there is affordable housing as an option, no matter which neighborhood it is in, our people have a right 217 RESOLUTION 970558 to access that option. Following me is -- Gloria Blackman is a tenant at Dignity Housing, a recovering substance abuser, and she has her own statement that she would like to make. CHAIRMAN KENNEY: Prior to that, I just have a few comments. First of all, would you be interested in a job running the PHA Section 8 program? I don't have the authority to offer you that. But I think that what you have been saying rings very true, regardless of what neighborhood you live in. And that is that people are in circumstances for various reasons, many of those reasons beyond their control. And I don't think anyone, or at least I am speaking for myself, would deny people the opportunity for the help they need to improve their circumstance and to move forward. One of the things that has been the hallmark of your testimony, as I heard it, was that there are also levels of expectation on the part of what we expect from people who are living together 218 RESOLUTION 970558 with others as a way of issues of behavior and respect. And respect is, again, a two-way street. One of the saddest parts about this whole hearing and about this whole issue is that a program that serves so many people so well, because of a very small group of landlords and tenants, sad to say, give the entire program a bad name because of lots of other issues. Fear of the unknown, fear of differences, fear of what's happening in your neighborhood, or what you think may happen, or predispositions you may have about people and what they are and what they're about, all those things need to be broken down. But they need to be broken down, I think, on the track that you were talking about, by giving people opportunities, while at the same time having high expectations for those people to succeed. And I do appreciate your testimony and feel that there are lots of common ground amongst people who are on various sides of this issue, if they are open-minded and honest about where they want to go. 219 RESOLUTION 970558 So I thank you for your testimony. And please identify yourself for the record and proceed.
My name is Gloria Blackman. I am also a tenant at Dignity House. I moved in Dignity March of this year. Dignity helps me a whole lot. It provides a program for hundreds of people such as myself. I also was on drugs at one time. I also had three years clean off of drugs. CHAIRMAN KENNEY: Congratulations.
Thank you. Dignity has provided for me to better my skills as far as coming up there, working for them. I go to school at night, I get my GED. So I will be out from like 8:00 in the morning until like 10:00 at night. When I come home, I be tired, but I have a challenge, myself, to like do some things for myself today. I thank this program for allowing me to -- for a better stepping stone in my life. It gives me opportunity and challenge to challenge the 220 RESOLUTION 970558 world and what the society has to offer. I have no 3 limitations for myself anymore. I didn't want for nothing, but Dignity let me know that there is a lot out there for me to get, and it is a seed. I have dreams and goals to fulfill. I am going after my dreams and my goals. Within two years I expect to be a homeowner. I am an only child. My parents died at the age of 14, five months apart from each other. I have no kids, so I am a single, black woman that is struggling, but succeeding. Thank you. CHAIRMAN KENNEY: Congratulations, and best of luck to you. Sir. (Applause.)
Good afternoon. My name is Arthur Green, and I am an advocate for the Pennsylvania Coalition to Save Subsidized Housing. I was born in Little Rock, Arkansas, United States citizen, and a 20-year-plus resident of Philadelphia. 221 RESOLUTION 970558 I have lived a life of the well-to-do and also the life of the homeless and depressed, existing from cardboard pouch to garbage bag dinners. By the way, my discussion is about the clusterization. And my coalition is against it. CHAIRMAN KENNEY: Yes, sir.
I ask you to hear these words with your heart and not your mind. Again we find ourselves face to face with the discussion of what is right or wrong, evil versus good, hate versus love, freedom to be or not to be. Freedom, the truth. Freedom is free for few, but comes at a costly price of time and loss of lives for others. Surely those of us that know the cause should not forget the price. Hate. Freedom allows hate to demonstrate or voice its opinion. Surely you have seen it. Remember the man with the funny mustache? Have you seen the hate that hides its face behind hoods? 222 RESOLUTION 970558 If hate would have its way, we would be marching, and the South would most definitely rise again. However, freedom can't and will never allow hate to rule the world. Love must and shall rule the world. The American dream, a promise of freedom and equality. The Fair Housing Act, a landmark, can stand America's promise of the Constitution to all citizens. To deny freedom fought and won is denial. To take it away is murderous. You are Philadelphia. You know about freedom and equality. You have a reputation. The mission of your name implies freedom. You began the cry for independence. The Constitution was written here. Aren't you the keeper of the Liberty Bell? The Bill of Rights was signed here. Philadelphia says welcome America. Every summer, Unity Day. Philadelphia is the model city of the next century. What is your message to the rest of the country? Philadelphia can find ways to play 223 RESOLUTION 970558 together, but we can't plan ways to live together? Freedom is a process that love motivates and God sanctions. Freedom is a process we may give out, but we can never give up. Section 8, a process of freedom living of choice, not a process for plantations or concentration camps. And I want to say something about what you said about -- (Applause.)
-- you know, I understand and I am pleased to hear that Council is against this clusterization. But you made a comment about the homes on 15th Street and the people that live -- the comment you just made to Leona. CHAIRMAN KENNEY: There is a 32-unit facility at 1515 Fairmount that includes both a restaurant, a book store, and a clothing store inside the actual facility, where 32 former homeless people, some substance-abuse-recovering people, and some mentally ill people, and other people who don't have mental illness or substance abuse problems, live together in one structure. 224 RESOLUTION 970558 Which I have been through a number of times, and have seen that the apartments are spacious and dignified, clean and decent places for permanent housing, permanent solution, to homeless Philadelphians.
Okay. Well, I agree with that. And the part of the permanent, permanent stumbles me there for a minute. Because I have been homeless. And I wish Miss Blackwell was still here. I wanted to thank her. Because I was one of the men that lived in the subway five years ago. Okay? And I am also a drug abuse/substance abuse recovering person, and alcoholic. All right? But I have five years clean today, thank God. CHAIRMAN KENNEY: Congratulations. (Applause.)
But what I need to say is that that permanent, that's good for some. But a person like me, I would like to be able to choose my own. CHAIRMAN KENNEY: Sure. The permanency --
Let me get it clear now. 225 RESOLUTION 970558 For people that want to live in communities like that, that's good. But I would like to have, and I did get, life skills coming through the recovery program that I went through. And eventually I will be getting my own and living with my woman in my own home. CHAIRMAN KENNEY: Yes, sir.
For people that want to stay with somebody, that's good. CHAIRMAN KENNEY: For me, the permanency is an issue of choice. It would be the choice for those individuals to stay there or not. But my point is, making the choice to stay there gives people a support mechanism that they need at that time in their life to improve their situation.
What I think needs to be done -- and like I said, I went through the shelter system -- is, I think you should start looking at the shelter system. You did say something about the warehousing. They need to cut the warehousing out. CHAIRMAN KENNEY: Yes, sir.
All right. It is more 226 RESOLUTION 970558 funds going in to putting in people to give life skills to prevent people that's going into shelters. There should be people looking at them, looking at their medical and mental conditions. All right? Because I can tell you for a fact, and I know, three years living on the streets of Philadelphia, it can make you crazy.
As I heard you mention about the 1515 Fairmount, I can recall, because many of us was there, we had to fight the City of Philadelphia through tooth and nails to get.
For three years. And the bulk of the residents that's at 1515 Fairmount are mental health consumers, the bulk of them are. So we had to fight this city, including the Mayor, to go to court in order to get 1515 in place. And I had to bring that --
-- ordered the city to obey the city laws and so on. Because we were not obeying city ordinances.
By the way, we were listening to some neighborhood individuals that did not want -- because I live in that neighborhood.
Right. Right. And we had to -- and I am bringing that out. It is at the same level of racism against homeless people and people who don't have a place to stay, is the same thing that I heard here today. Is the same exact thing. And here we are many, many years later fighting the same thing. We have a right to choose any place we want to live. We have that right. Whether it is subsidized housing, or not. And that has been part of the problem. Because we have been so divided, 228 RESOLUTION 970558 until we don't understand. I would like to see us, if the city don't want houses, I would like to see the city give them to us. Give them to us. Because there is no reason why over 20,000 homeless people are sleeping on the streets of the City of Philadelphia. There is no reason why -- and that is true. That is true. There is no reason why all of these properties are standing there vacant and deteriorating. And slum landlords -- and I will be done -- the slum landlords have all of the rights. We have none. And we are saying, let us run. (Applause.)
This is what we have been meeting about. How do we run the slum landlords? If the city and the state and the feds are not going to fund these slumlords, we will be the CDCs. We know how to run programs. We are not given the resources and the opportunity, but we know how to run programs. So we want to put together -- we 229 RESOLUTION 970558 already have a coalition together. It is called Save Our Homes, that our brother and a lot of members that are here are part of it. It is fighting to save our homes and Section 8, and et cetera. But if the slum landlords are not doing the job, give us that money, give us that opportunity, and we will show you and tell you how it is supposed to work and how we can succeed.
Thank you. Whittier Dow, and Cheri Honkala after Mr. Dow. Good afternoon, Mr. Dow.
No problem. You give your testimony however you please, and identify yourself for the record.
Thank you. My name is Whittier Dow. I am from the Housing Consortium for Disabled Individuals. I am a Fair Housing Specialist. We are a private nonprofit who deals specifically with the housing problems of the 230 RESOLUTION 970558 disabled. And we are here to testify our continued support for the Section 8 program. And one reason our organization has a concern is, I have not heard too much talk about the needs of the disabled housing community as it relates to Section 8 and what goes on in the city. First of all, the disabled community, there is over a half a million people with some type of disabling condition in Philadelphia. And those people that have disabilities, the average income of a person with a disability is $520 a month. And most of this income comes from SSI, SSD, some type of federal income. As I heard the young lady testify earlier about her frustration of being on the Section 8 waiting list, I have been working for the housing consortium for the last seven years now, and that's a thing that I have heard quite readily, about people who have been on the PHA waiting list for years and years and years. And it always seems like, particularly in this city, that the disabled community, when it comes to being on the waiting list for PHA, is always the last one to get -- to 231 RESOLUTION 970558 have their issues addressed. We're saying that the city should reevaluate how they review a waiting list, if there is such a waiting list that still exists. We in the housing community have problems sometimes with trying to find out whether there really is a PHA housing list that exists, whether it gets purged, how it gets purged, who gets on it, who doesn't get on it. We're saying that this should be one consideration in examining Section 8. Also, we are in strong disagreement with clustering of people. Because, first of all, it leads to discrimination, ghettoization, and it also has a disparaging impact on the disabled community. Because the disabled community is always the last one to get serviced when it comes to any type of service. Furthermore, Section 8, if you start to cluster people, it will lead to violations of fair housing. And fair housing is an issue that I always talk to with the city officials, none of which came out today, unfortunately. I wish they 232 RESOLUTION 970558 had. Because the city has not taken an aggressive stand toward enforcing fair housing. And when I talk about fair housing, I talk about not only people having the ability like yourself, Councilman, to move into a neighborhood, or like myself. But I also talk about hate crimes. And when the city aggressively takes a stand and takes fair housing as being a part of the housing policy, and implements training to neighborhoods and residents, some of these issues that we are addressing today may be eliminated toward retraining and education.
You know that clustering violates the Fair Housing Act of the City of Philadelphia.
Yes, sir. But no one in the city Administration seems to take fair housing as being a fair -- as being an honest thing to go after.
I know. I am just 233 RESOLUTION 970558 telling you we do.
I am talking about the people who are part of the policy-making people, not you, and the people that implement the programs that come from the Mayor's Office, down through the Office of Housing, and so forth. Fair housing is a thing that has to be addressed in this city. Because we always claim to be the City of Brotherly Love. But until we start truly addressing fair housing and addressing the issues of hate crimes that take place in our neighborhoods, we won't be able to do this. I myself live in South Philadelphia. I used to live in West Philadelphia, but I have lived in South Philadelphia for several years now. And I live approximately two blocks east of where one of the hate crimes incidents happened, at 4th and Snyder. And it was very upsetting. Because I said, here I am, a man who works for justice every day, and it is happening right down the street from me. And the city has to come in and they have to take a firm stand for fair housing. And also, when we -- when you 234 RESOLUTION 970558 consider your examination of the Section 8 program, you have to look at the policies that are coming down from HUD itself. There is a de-emphasis now, away from rental housing, towards home ownership. And if vouchers and certificates are to be used, there should be some kind of way where people can integrate a certificate and a voucher, along with their income and along with what the landlord or the bank would receive to make it possible to put that person in a home-ownership program. Because that's the aspect that I have not heard addressed too much, the emphasis toward more home ownership.
We have been discussing that. And we discussed that when Congressman Fattah was here.
And so on, Mr. Dow. I will make your whole statement part of the record. Would you like to see the Section 8 expanded? Because right now it is very limited. 235 RESOLUTION 970558 And I should say, people on disability are not being able to break into the waiting list. And what I get from you is that you would like to see the program expanded in order to be able to accommodate folks that are there and in need of Section 8.
Yes, Councilman. Particularly for the people that I see every day. There definitely needs to be an expansion of the program. There needs to be more intense support programs when they go into a unit or when they go into home ownership. Home ownership counseling programs should be designed specifically to suit the needs of the disabled community, you know. Because there are issues that are very unique to the disabled community. You have a lot of people who have not had an opportunity to live either on their own, and even in home ownership. We also suggest, Councilman -- and this is in my statement, but I would like to state this so you can hear it -- that one way to enhance the usability of Section 8 is to form partnerships. 236 RESOLUTION 970558 And these partnerships should come from other nonprofits, Fannie May, the banking industry, the universities, the hospitals in the area, to make a home ownership and then, like, make that a viable possibility. And I urge, before the Council, that the Council looks at the way that the city goes about dealing with fair housing issues, and that they no longer just take fair housing as being something when a neighbor gets harassed, where the best way to solve the problem is by relocation. The best way of solving the problem of discrimination and patterns like that is reeducation and making sure that people are trained and they know what fair housing is. And it is education. And the city should take a proactive stand on fair housing. I thank the Council for their guts for having this hearing. I am sorry that more of the city officials weren't here. But I commend the Council for allowing myself and other people like myself from organizations, and private citizens, the opportunity to speak. 237 RESOLUTION 970558
Good afternoon. My name is Cheri Honkala, and I am from an organization in Philadelphia called the Kensington Welfare Rights Union. I am happy that Council is holding these hearings this afternoon. However, I am not happy that none of the Johns are here, John White, John Street, John Kromer.
Oh, he was busy? Okay. Because I was going to suggest a cluster John program. I am here today to speak in support of Section 8 and, I daresay, the expansion of the Section 8 program in Philadelphia. We have a serious problem with 238 RESOLUTION 970558 increase in homelessness in our area. And I am also here to speak against cluster housing. First of all, in our organization, we start with a different kind of ideology, which is that poor folks are capable of analysis, understanding what's happening in the City of Philadelphia, and trying to read between the lines when it comes to politics. And, so, therefore, even though sometimes my slated role as a poor person in Philadelphia is to give one of testimony, I would also like to attempt to put forward an analysis of what I see happening in regards to the whole discussion around Section 8 in the City of Philadelphia. I am saddened to see that it is being put forward that poor folks somehow are innately incapable of cleaning their houses, attract roaches, and somehow don't know how to take out the garbage. And I say this as a formerly homeless woman who resided in the City of Philadelphia. And me becoming homeless wasn't a result of not having work ethics, wasn't a result of not knowing how to care for my child or how to clean my house; it was a 239 RESOLUTION 970558 direct result of not having access to decent and affordable housing in this city. Many years ago I put my name on the Section 8 waiting list. And I am sure it will be many moons from now until my name in particular ever comes up on this mysterious list. However, I am here today to testify not because I am interested in becoming the new program director of PHA, nor am I interested in ever receiving any money from the city, state, or the federal government. We have enjoyed the freedom of being able to talk truth to what we see happening as a result. I am not only disheartened that many of our elected officials are not here today, because this affects many Philadelphians, it affects all of us, but I am also saddened to not see the large numbers of Community Development Corporations here testifying and speaking, as well. After all, they run programs. And if it wasn't for those Section 8 certificates, they would be in some serious problems. However, there is quite a conflict of 240 RESOLUTION 970558 interest, since almost all of the Community Development Corporations, probably most all of them, receive funding from the actual guy, John Kromer, from the Office of Housing and Community Development, who has proposed the cluster programming in the City of Philadelphia. So if you get funded from the gentleman, it probably is difficult to come forward and talk against such a discriminatory measure. However, we think that since Council is very interested in looking at absentee landlords, that a recommendation would be to begin to check into the absentee landlords in Center City. There are a great deal of them in the Center City area. And perhaps that would be a good place to start. Not to mention the concentration on the amount of abandoned houses in the City of Philadelphia that continue to fall down around us. And we need to begin to concentrate on developing a plan on what we're going to do with the enormous numbers of homeless families who are going to have nowhere to sleep in the City of Philadelphia because our city too participated in -- 241 RESOLUTION 970558 there was some good leadership, but various different folks participated much in the same way that different folks are participating in the dismantling of public housing here in our area. Which brings me to the question of race. Like the whole issue of welfare reform, race was used throughout the entire country to go forward with dismantling of the safety net program that all of us had the luxury of living under for 60 years of our lifetime.
And now we get to see race used, once again, towards the dismantling of a program that has kept many families, particularly children, off the streets of Philadelphia. I mean, when we get into questions of management, we know that there is plenty of blame to go around in this process. And that involves all of the Johns and, like my Councilman said, Rendell in this process, as well. We need to be aware of the fact that this stuff is incredibly dangerous. " 242 RESOLUTION 970558 We know the real deal here. Because we have had the misfortune to actually know several of the residents in the Philadelphia area that a great deal of politicians have done some wonderful lightings of fires under various different folks, ward leaders, you know, the folks that control the neighborhoods, to begin to start some problems in the neighborhood, as if there is a big problem with any given house on a block. And, so, we have seen this process in some very sad situations that have resulted in families becoming homeless again. Not because they were bad tenants, but because some politicians had other agendas and wanted to run low-income families out of different sections of the city. And the sad thing is that this whole debate is beginning to pit neighbor against neighbor. And for low-income families that are on Section 8, that are doing fine, clean their house, are looking for employment, you name it, become victims in this process, as well. Because if they speak out, they are afraid that people are going to come forward, find out their address, write down their license plate, 243 RESOLUTION 970558 and begin to have them live in a fish bowl. And I think that that's really sad, particularly during this upcoming holiday season. And I am sorry that the Councilman isn't here. He referred to 1515 on several occasions. And we have several petitions that we have brought from all the members of 1515 Fairmount, as well as the various different programs in the City of Philadelphia, and residents of Section 8, and non-residents that don't get Section 8 but that are just residents, that are homeowners in the City of Philadelphia, in support of the Section 8 program. And we can provide those for Council. Lastly, we just think that, again, that we have got to do something about feeding the fire, dismantling a program, and creating a larger crisis for all of us here in Philadelphia. As we go into the holiday season, with growing numbers of homeless families, we don't want to participate in having dismantling of a program and the scaring away of landlords, some of the good ones, from providing decent and affordable 244 RESOLUTION 970558 housing in the City of Philadelphia. Thank you.
Cheri, I don't think from this, at least today, that we made very clear that the majority of this Council feels very strongly that this program has to stay and has to be fixed in terms of whatever problems there are. But that the program itself is not the problem, and neither are the tenants.
We know that. We think that this is really about like who is going to be running for Mayor this next election. And there needed to be a juicy issue, and that's what we think.
I think today has gone a long way. And I think the reason for this hearing, in essence, was because of the festering that was going on throughout some neighborhoods in this city. And that a few of us decided that we needed to have an open dialogue where everybody was invited. And that we needed to begin opening up the windows and bringing in some fresh air, and really 245 RESOLUTION 970558 looking at where it is that we need to go. I think that that has happened today, you know. In many ways that has happened today, without all of the Johns that you say and so on. That has happened today. They will have to come before Council, Rendell and Kromer and PHA, and all of these individuals will --
-- will be coming to Council in order to begin. Because we have a record now of a lot of witnesses that have come, and landlords that have come, before us today. And they will have to begin putting answers to all the questions that have arisen. One of the questions, or one of the issues that is not going to be, and at least from my part and I think from what I hear from Jim Kenney and David Cohen, who are the three major sponsors of this resolution, is that we don't want to see the dismantling of Section 8 in any way, shape, or form; that we do want to see the program run efficiently 246 RESOLUTION 970558 and much better than it is. And so that the key situation, I think that what today has done, is that we have put the debate at another level. We have taken it away from the hidden rooms and the festering. And any politicians that wanted to come to Council today, they were invited. Everybody in the city knew these hearings were going to take place. The Congressman came, and he spoke. Other individuals who may have had an opinion, and if they had wanted to come in, this was their opportunity. This Committee will not go out of session today. We will recess, but we will recess to a date certain in order to have all of the Johns and the Eds come before Council and share information and hear our opinion. And before anything is done about clustering and whatever it is, this Council will be heard from. And I believe that we will represent the voice of the people.
Okay. CHAIRMAN KENNEY: Mr. Chairman. 247 RESOLUTION 970558 CHAIRMAN COHEN: Thank you very much. CHAIRMAN KENNEY: I just want to make one comment. First of all, I apologize for having to use the men's room. I know I had to leave the room. But certain human functions --
I would like to thank you for using it. CHAIRMAN KENNEY: -- do take precedent. And I do apologize for not being here when you started your testimony. But I had stopped in my office on the way from the men's room and heard some of the comments you were making relative to, perhaps, people's motives or underlying messages or conspiracies or politics. I don't think I have said anything in this debate from the onset of this debate in this room today or in any other forum, in the Northeast or in any other neighborhood, that has not been consistent in my position that this program needs to be saved, it needs to be improved in many areas when it comes to relationships with landlords, and some 248 RESOLUTION 970558 of the issues relative to the behavior of tenants. I think they are fair issues for discussion. I have never in any circumstance said that it should be dismantled or eliminated. I think it is a very important program. And the one thing I would caution you, with all due respect, is to not do the same thing you accuse us of doing, and that's pre-supposing what's in my mind or in my heart or in my motivations. And I won't pre-suppose what your motivations are, and I don't think you should pre-suppose what mine may be. Because my motivations, so you know for the record, are to make sure that people have access to clean, safe, affordable housing, despite their economic condition, in any neighborhood they would like to live in, while at the same time allowing those properties to be integrated into an existing stable community that is accepting of those individuals. Not repressive, not avoidance, none of those things. But making sure that everyone understands that the program is run in a consistent 249 RESOLUTION 970558 and fair way so that people are accepted into the community. Because let me tell you something. Right now in many neighborhoods that need to be educated, that feeling isn't there. And I think in an effort to overcome some of the prejudice, some of the predispositions, and some of the other issues that come about as it relates to subsidized housing, we need to overcome those issues. We can't overcome those issues by telling them their legitimate concerns and legitimate complaints should not be looked at and at least studied appropriately. So my motivation from day one -- I am not running for Mayor, and my name is not John, and my name is not Ed. What I do is, I live in the city for 39 years. I hear what people are saying. And the people that are complaining to me are not all white. They are African-American, they are Latino, they are Asian, they have concerns. And I will tell you another thing. 250 RESOLUTION 970558 The issue that comes from my own particular neighborhood, where there are Section 8 tenants who are not behaving appropriately, the predominant amount of them are white. So from an issue of race, it is not there for me. It is there for other people in the community at large. And I think that is sad. And those people need to be educated and changed, their mindset needs to be changed. But that's a long-term process. If this program is going to work and serve people the way it should be served, people need to accept the program and embrace the program, and not have Section 8 be the buzzword it has become. And I think by all of our efforts we can change that stigma and change that attitude, and make this thing go forward in a positive way.
Thank you. And I agree with you. Certainly a man should be judged by his deeds and not his words. CHAIRMAN KENNEY: Thank you.
As well as who he keeps company with and his relationships, as well. 251 RESOLUTION 970558 CHAIRMAN KENNEY: I don't know about who he keeps company with. That's up for debate. I wouldn't predispose to judge you for who you keep company with, and you shouldn't predispose to judge who I keep company with.
Why not? That's fine with me. CHAIRMAN COHEN: Councilman Mariano.
Cheri, two questions. I keep company with Jim, though, just so you know.
My one question is, we have heard a lot about PHA today. And I am one of the people that are mad because John, John, and Ed aren't here. I am mad, I don't like it, because they didn't let us know. But I will deal with that like I deal with everything else here, as it comes. But you see it at a different level because you are involved with the Kensington Welfare Rights. And I know what you do, and I think it is a good thing. Because somebody has to be here. 252 RESOLUTION 970558 But do they make the homeless beg for these secret certificates? I mean, it can't be pleasant at that level. Because I know I represent --
But I need them to know that. I am not trying to trick you.
It is all politics. I mean, you get things in the City of Philadelphia based on who it is that you know. All right? The squeaky wheel gets the grease. That's how things --
See, I must not know the right people. I can get Sixers and Phillies tickets, but I can't get the homeless certificates for the people that need it. I am serious. There are a lot of us here that you might think we know, and we are that politically connected. We are not.
But do you know what? I am not going to attack the Section 8 program because similar to -- 253 RESOLUTION 970558
I don't want to do that. But there must be something at that level where it can't be great. I mean, if you are on a list for four or five years and it is a legitimate need for a certificate, I mean, something is not right.
Correct. I am not going to get into talking about -- sitting here and talking about the various different -- fall into the trap of talking about the various different things that need to be --
It is not a trap. I need to know what goes on at that level.
Okay, statesmen. But the thing is that, in all various different programs and in political offices, you name it, there is always room for improvement. 254 RESOLUTION 970558 But the thing is that I get afraid of a bandwagon approach. Right? Where we are going to throw out a bunch of misinformation to the general public, and -- you know, like if you listen to the Rush Limbaugh station, like this is the number one issue right now. CHAIRMAN KENNEY: I don't listen to him.
Well, that's good. I will let you know what's on it. Like, dismantling Section 8 in this country is the number one thing on Rush Limbaugh right now. It is the next thing. So I just want to make sure that we are careful that we are not participating in that process. And maybe we are not conscious of playing that particular role, but that we make sure that we try and -- unless we got a better plan, unless we got a better program, let's not throw more and more children out onto the streets. That's all I'm saying. 255 RESOLUTION 970558 Thank you.
One last question, sort of tongue in cheek. If you know who is going to be Mayor, let me know. I can make some money on it. Talk to me later. Let me know.
There is a whole list. You would not believe who is running.
I could use that information. CHAIRMAN COHEN: You have not yet been excused by the Chair.
I am sorry. CHAIRMAN COHEN: In I think it is this morning's Inquirer, there is a story about two or three Kensington homes that have been built that are available at, I think, a $29,000 market price. And that they have been available for the last eight months. Could you explain that? Because what we hear is the terrible 256 RESOLUTION 970558 need for homes that exist. And I cannot understand why these homes have not been occupied.
On what block are they? CHAIRMAN COHEN: I don't know the block.
Sometimes that has to do with why. CHAIRMAN COHEN: They are homes that have been rehabilitated.