Committee Hearing, December 6, 2005

COUNCIL OF THE CITY OF PHILADELPHIA JOINT COMMITTEES ON PUBLIC SAFETY AND PUBLIC HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES - - - Room 400, City Hall Philadelphia, Pennsylvania Tuesday, December 6, 2005 10:35 a.m. - - - PRESENT: COUNCILWOMAN DONNA REED MILLER, CHAIRWOMAN COUNCILMAN DARRELL L. CLARKE COUNCILMAN W. WILSON GOODE, JR. COUNCILMAN JAMES F. KENNEY COUNCILMAN FRANK RIZZO COUNCILMAN JUAN RAMOS BILL 050865 - An ordinance amending Title 9 of The Philadelphia Code, entitled "Regulation of Businesses, Trades and Professions," by adding a section prohibiting advertising of alcohol products within a certain distance of locations frequented by children... - - - V A R A L L O Incorporated Litigation Support Services Eleven Penn Center 1835 Market Street, Suite 600 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19103 215.561.2220 215.567.2670 2

Good morning. This public hearing is now in session. This is the Joint Committees on Public Safety and Public Health and Human Services. I want to announce our quorum. To my left, we have Councilman Rizzo, Councilman Goode, Councilman Clarke. To my far right, Councilman Kenney and Councilman Ramos. Will the Clerk please read the title of the bill.

Bill No. 050865, an ordinance amending Title 9 of The Philadelphia Code, entitled "Regulation of Businesses, Trades and Professions," by adding a section prohibiting advertising of alcohol products within a certain distance of locations frequented by children, including schools, playgrounds, recreation centers, childcare centers and libraries; by making findings; and by making technical changes; all under certain terms and 3 12/6/05 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 050865 conditions.

Thank you. Before proceeding, Councilman Clarke has been appointed to the Committees by Council President Verna, and he has an opening statement. Councilman.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Good morning. Madam Chair, first I would like to thank and commend this particular City Council of Philadelphia for all the work they have done on all of the quality of life issues, from stop-and-go's to advertisement, from violence, all of the things that create a better atmosphere in our neighborhoods that are more conducive to growing up to be model citizens as it relates to our young people. In this particular bill, one of the intents is to continue the quality of life initiatives that this Council has 4 12/6/05 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 050865 worked on during the course of the last couple of years. We feel very concerned about the subliminal messages that some of this advertisement causes and sometimes not necessarily so subliminal, particularly to our young people having to go to school, having to go to our recreation centers, looking at walls plastered with half-naked women with an alcohol advertisement, somehow implying that if an individual drinks alcohol, they'll look like this. We think it is a very negative, very negative environment within our community. I don't want to be presumptuous, but I would like to thank this Committee for the support of this particular bill early on in the process. Not that we are not a fair and a reasonable Council. We will listen to all sides. And I want to thank all of the individual advocates for coming down. I was a little concerned about the weather. 5 12/6/05 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 050865 Thankfully, the weather broadcasters were a little off, so it allowed us and afforded us an opportunity to come down here this morning. So I want to thank all of you for coming down. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Councilman Clarke. We're now going to proceed with our first panel of witnesses. If you're present in the room, please move up to the witness table, state your name and your affiliation for the record. Joanne Godley, Acting Health Commissioner; Dr. Arthur Evans, Office of Mental Health and Behavioral Health; and John McGee, Deputy Commissioner, DHS. Again, will you please state your name and your department for the record and proceed with your testimony. And it doesn't matter who goes first.

Ladies first.

Ladies 6 12/6/05 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 050865 first. COMMISSIONER GODLEY: Dr. Joanne Godley, Acting Health Commissioner. Good morning, Councilman Clarke, Chairperson Reed Miller and members of the Committees on Public Health and Human Services and Public Safety. I am Dr. Joanne Godley, Acting Health Commissioner. Thank you for the opportunity to speak about the proposed ordinance 14 amending Title 9 of The Philadelphia Code by adding a section prohibiting advertising of alcohol products within a certain distance of locations frequented by children, including schools, playgrounds, recreation centers, childcare centers and libraries. Collaborating with me on preparing this testimony has been Dr. Arthur Evans, Director of the Department of Behavioral Health. It is well documented that 7 12/6/05 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 050865 children exposed to alcohol advertising are more likely to be adult abusers of alcohol, and the Departments of Public Health and Behavioral Health support fully any attempt to reduce exposure of children to alcohol advertising. All of us are exposed to alcohol advertising on a daily basis, just as we are to tobacco and junk food advertising and, for that matter, to graphic displays of violence and a myriad of harmful and unhealthful activities. Exposure is from every direction, through television programming and news broadcasts, the film and music industries, electronic games and the print media. It would be safe to say that billions of dollars are spent annually on exhibiting these vices and insidiously weaving them into our lives by making them appear to be more of the norm than the very abnormal activities that they are. Often it seems we have little 8 12/6/05 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 050865 control over what we see through the media. Although as public health agencies and advocates for quality of life issues, we would like to believe that we do have some control. Control, however, does not come without cost. Children are much more vulnerable to advertising, as they have not yet developed the ability to differentiate views of real life from those scenes that are staged for advertising. The American Academy of Pediatrics recommends banning, among other forms of advertising, alcohol advertising in all media. We know that this is not likely to happen any time soon, and some researchers believe that counter-marketing ads are actually more effective in dissuading young people from drinking by educating them about the negative effects of alcohol. Studies have shown that alcohol consumption decreases as the level of counter-marketing increases. While this 9 12/6/05 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 050865 may be an effective strategy, it is a costly one. The Department of Public Health has been able to provide a limited amount of tobacco counter-marketing, but only through outside funding from the tobacco settlement. Alcohol advertising near residential areas, schools and other locations frequented by children can lead to alcohol use in minors influenced by those ads. Alcohol advertisements are designed to make alcohol consumption appear fashionable and desirable, and as a result, impressionable children may see alcohol consumption as a way to gain status and acceptance. But, in fact, what actually occurs in minors who have been lured into drinking by alcohol advertising is a lowering of inhibitions, which can lead to substance abuse and other regrettable actions such as unprotected sex, assaults and other criminal activity. The lowered inhibitions and early abuse can also 10 12/6/05 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 050865 result in debilitating illnesses, fatal accidents and a variety of alcohol-related mental and physical illnesses that further destroy lives, families and communities. According to the American Medical Association, drinking is a factor in half of all teen motor vehicle crashes and is the leading cause of death among teenagers.

As cited in the legislative findings of Bill 050865, there are numerous national and local reports documenting the degree of underage drinking and the resultant impact, especially with regard to motor vehicle accidents. We also know that there is a link between alcohol use and adolescent suicide. The longer adolescents delay using alcohol and other drugs, allowing their minds and bodies to more fully mature, the less chance they have of developing a substance use disorder later in life. The National Institute on 11 12/6/05 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 050865 Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism reports studies that show more than 40 percent of children who begin drinking before age 5 became alcohol dependent at some time in 6 their lives. 7 Decreasing the exposure of 8 children to alcohol advertising would 9 seem to be a classic example of, and I 10 quote, an ounce of prevention is worth a 11 pound of cure, end quote. We believe 12 that the proposed modification to The 13 Philadelphia Code on outdoor advertising 14 will serve as an effective tool to help 15 limit the effects of harmful advertising on our children and adolescents and will improve the quality of life for children and adults in Philadelphia. The Departments of Public Health and Behavioral Health fully support passage of this significant legislation. Thank you very much.

Thank you. We'll hold any questions until 12 12/6/05 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 050865 after everyone has testified on the panel. DHS. DEPUTY COMMISSIONER McGEE: Good morning, Madam Chairperson, Councilman Clarke and members of City Council. I'm John McGee, Deputy Commissioner of the Department of Human Services, and I'm here on behalf of Commissioner Cheryl Ransom-Garner and the Department of Human Services. I would like to thank you for the opportunity to address the Council on the pending alcohol advertising legislation bill and give testimony regarding this legislation on behalf of the Department. The mission of the Department of Human Services is to protect children from abuse, neglect and delinquency; ensure their safety and permanency, nurturing home environments and provide effective community-based prevention services. The children and families with 13 12/6/05 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 050865 whom we work present a wide spectrum of problems. The issues to be resolved may involve many factors, but one that impacts a large number of families is alcohol abuse and its devastating effects, both psychological and physiological on all family members. Connecting abusive and neglectful parents and caretakers to alcohol rehabilitation programs, when indicated, is part of the job for our social workers. More recently, however, the Department is seeing an increasing number of youth who abuse alcohol in addition to their other presenting problems, such as delinquency, truancy and incorrigibility. We are currently working on the development of a new residential rehabilitation program for female teens with a diagnosis of alcohol addiction. This service investment clearly demonstrates the need to address the growing problem of teen alcoholism. The 14 12/6/05 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 050865 vulnerability of the children and youth involved with our agency makes them even more susceptible to the suggestion of alcohol advertising that happiness and success go hand in hand with the consumption of alcohol. The Department of Human Services believes that we must focus on our neighborhoods to build on strengths and work together to solve their problems. We, as a department, have invested significant resources in the community and have seen positive results. We know we are all influenced by our surroundings. We have an obligation to our children and families who use community parks, teen centers, public facilities and playgrounds to provide an environment that fosters positive and healthy growth and development. With the best interest of the children of Philadelphia as our top priority, we strongly support this amendment prohibiting advertising of 15 12/6/05 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 050865 alcohol products within a certain distance of locations frequented by children as indicated in amending Title 5 of The Philadelphia Code. 6 Ladies and gentlemen of 7 Council, again, I thank you for your time 8 and attention allowing me to address the 9 Council.

Thank you. The next gentleman. Excuse me. I don't know your name.

My name is Michael Covone, Deputy Director with the Department of Behavioral Health, and as Dr. Godley indicated, the Behavioral Health testimony and the Public Health testimony were integrated into one document.

All right. Thank you. Councilman Rizzo, you have a question?

Thank you. 16 12/6/05 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 050865 I'm going to bring my thoughts up now rather than wait, because I want to better understand, and I'm not sure who can answer the question, is the fact that SEPTA apparently recently has reversed its decision not to carry advertising on their buses promoting alcohol, what we're talking about today, and possibly the shelters that are at various locations throughout the City. I'm not sure whether SEPTA has direct control over what is placed there or not. There's confusion. The City owns the shelter and the SEPTA controls the actual advertising, and, again, I'm not sure how that works, but it doesn't seem appropriate to have constraints against outdoor advertising organizations and then allow a public transportation authority to pull a bus up to the front of a school that's got the exact same advertising on it. So I think it's hypocritical for SEPTA to now -- the information that 17 12/6/05 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 050865 I have, two months ago SEPTA reversed its prohibition on alcohol advertising on its buses and also its bus stops. If that information is accurate and correct, and I believe it is, we still have a big hole here. So would you agree with me that if it advertises on a transportation bus, we haven't fixed the problem? This might be a good first step, but it's unfair, in my opinion, to allow SEPTA to do this and not a company that's in the business of outdoor advertising. COMMISSIONER GODLEY: I would agree. I would just say that in areas, say, around daycare centers or around schools where young children are more likely to be present, that that probably poses a higher risk, because those young children are more susceptible than the mixed population that would be on public transportation.

I'm not talking about being on it. I'm talking 18 12/6/05 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 050865 about a bus coming down the street with foot of the 40-foot bus, whatever the 4 length is, it's got an advertisement for 5 alcohol. 6 So I think SEPTA has got to 7 join hands here, and maybe the sponsor of 8 the bill would comment on that. And if 9 we're going to ask advertising 10 organizations to stop this, they must. 11

Thank 12 you, Councilman Rizzo. 13 Councilman Clarke. 14

Thank you, 15 Madam Chair. 16 Councilman, I actually agree 17 with you with respect to SEPTA's 18 willingness to continue its advertisement 19 on buses. I do believe that the City of 20 Philadelphia has the ability to determine the content of the bus shelters. That's something that we; i.e., the City, can do. Unfortunately, this particular Council does not have that level of jurisdiction over SEPTA. I often wish we 19 12/6/05 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 050865 did, because there would be a number of things that would happen with SEPTA, particularly the excessive rates that continue to be the highest in the country. But if you, along with myself and other members of Council, are interested in going to SEPTA with some sort of resolution or possibly doing a resolution in Council and bringing SEPTA in and discussing the need for them to continue this advertisement on buses, I'm more than willing to participate and actually co-sponsor whatever legislation we would do.

Councilman Clarke, I'd be more than happy, but, again, I think it's unfair of us to try to restrict the outdoor advertisers when we allow our public transportation agency to profit by this.

I understand what you're saying, Councilman, but at the end of the day, I 20 12/6/05 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 050865 can only affect what I have jurisdiction over, and in this particular instance, we have jurisdiction over outdoor advertisements; i.e., signs, billboards and posters. We have current regulations associated with those particular items. As I said, again, unfortunately, I don't have jurisdiction over SEPTA, but I'm more than willing to participate in whatever form --

I appreciate that.

I just can't take the position, because there's some level of fairness as it relates to the types of advertisement that are allowed, different venues, that I do nothing as it relates to those things that we can affect. So where we can affect it, I think we should act on that. (Applause.)

Thank you, Councilman Clarke. Councilman Kenney. 21 12/6/05 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 050865

Thank you, Madam Chair. In the event that this bill 5 passes, and I think that it will, and SEPTA is not compliant, we have the ability to cite them, I believe, for their failure to cease and desist the activity that they're conducting. So, for example, if a bus shelter is within the thousand feet of a school, library, whatever we delineate, L&I sends a letter to SEPTA, tells them they're not in compliance with City Code and please remove the advertisement. If they don't, we start issuing citations. Same thing with bus routes that are within the vicinity of schools, libraries, recreation centers, which I think is probably every bus route in the City. I would expect that SEPTA may find the ability to cooperate in this situation, but if they don't, we could probably generate some revenue by fining them for all their buses and shelters 22 12/6/05 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 050865 that they refuse to comply with. So I think that moving forward, and this makes an inordinate amount of sense, because the problem is serious, and if SEPTA doesn't want to cooperate, then maybe we'll start just enforcing the law. Thank you. (Applause.)

Are there any questions of this panel from members of the Committee?

Just one.

Councilman Clarke.

I just wanted to ask one question, and anybody can answer the question. With respect to what people within the fields who determine certain things as it relates to the impressionable years, what are probably the most impressionable years in an individual's lifetime, meaning that when 23 12/6/05 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 050865 outside forces can encourage individuals or determine individuals' subsequent behavior throughout their life?

I think from a Behavioral Health perspective, it's clearly those young adolescent years and those years leading up to probably the 9 to 16 period, 11 to 15 period. 10

Okay. 11 COMMISSIONER GODLEY: I would 12 agree. The young, I guess, adolescent and under are very susceptible to being marketed, which is why a lot of the Saturday morning programs are replete with advertising, in order to guide children's choices and also to help them to develop some brand memory.

Would you say that the type of advertisement may be different when you're looking to impress or encourage younger individuals, more colorful, more active, more interactive, the joke Camel thing with -- kids tend to directly relate to that. 24 12/6/05 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 050865 COMMISSIONER GODLEY: There was a very interesting study in 1995 during the Superbowl. Budweiser used the Budweiser frog. And in 1996, they surveyed a number of young children, and the children chose the Budweiser frog over all of the other cartoon characters. They recognized that particular commercial and that particular figure. And so, yes, I think young children in particular are very susceptible to colorful ads.

So I guess one could assume that, understanding the level of marketing strategies that a lot of these companies use, that they in fact clearly understand that by using a Budweiser frog -- a frog, not necessarily a Budweiser frog, but a frog -- that it would obviously attract the attention of young people based on your earlier statements, and it clearly shows that there is, to some degree, an attempt to influence younger individuals to 25 12/6/05 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 050865 encourage them as they become legal or something and, fortunately, not of legal age to embark in using alcohol products. COMMISSIONER GODLEY: I would agree with that.

Thank you. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you. I have a question. How serious or how large is the teenage alcoholic problem? Mr. McGee, in your testimony you talked about opening a residential treatment program. DEPUTY COMMISSIONER McGEE: I don't have any data, Councilwoman. I'd be glad to try to get it for you, but the Department is noticing an increasing number of youngsters who come to our attention with problems of alcohol use and abuse, many on referrals from family court. But I'm glad to do some research on our own data and provide that to the Committee. 12/6/05 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 050865

Okay. Thank you. Does anybody else know? (No response.)

I keep thinking you work for DHS and I know you work for Behavioral Health. Thank you. Thank you for your testimony. The next panel will be Shelly Yanoff, Robin Axcelrod-Sabag, Reverend Jesse Brown, Bilal Qaayun. Please identify yourself for the record and proceed with your testimony, and we can just start with Shelly Yanoff.

Thank you. Good morning, Councilmembers and Chairman and Chairwoman. I'm very glad to be here. I want to thank you for the opportunity to testify, as well as to bring this issue out again. I'm afraid many of the things I'll say will be repeated and be repetitious, but it's important to repeat 27 12/6/05 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 050865 these things anyway, I think. I'm here today to express support, strong support, for this bill 5 and amendment, which will keep out alcohol advertising in the neighborhoods near our schools, near our playgrounds, near our recreational centers; in other words, in areas where many children come together. At City Council, you are guardians of the public trust. As grown-ups, we all should be guardians and protectors of our children. We should be protecting them and creating a safe and healthy environment in which they can grow up. A glance at any newspaper, any news story will remind us of how much we're failing. This City, its leaders, its communities and all of us must continue and increase our efforts to create better, safer environments for children. This bill is but one step in that process. 28 12/6/05 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 050865 We must continue to struggle to get the guns out of our communities and off the streets, to provide better supports for parents, to support abuse prevention, to decrease the lead in our housing, to provide better and safer childcare and, yes, to reduce kids' exposure to alcohol advertising. Underage drinking and teenage alcoholism, as you've heard, are serious problems in the country and in the City. There's extensive data that correlates alcohol advertising to underage drinking in Philadelphia. In Philadelphia, almost one-third of teens report having drunk an alcoholic beverage before the age of 13. Nearly one-fifth of teens reported that they had had a drinking binge. When polled, one-third of teens stated that they had had an alcoholic beverage in the past 30 days. Underage drinking contributes to somewhere between 6,000 and 12,000 29 12/6/05 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 050865 Philadelphia teens needing substance abuse treatment every year, at a cost to Pennsylvania of $3 billion. A study supported by the National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism revealed that 12-year-olds who were more aware of beer advertising held more favorable views on drinking and expressed an intention to drink more often as adults than children who are less knowledgeable about the ads. A federally funded study of 1,000 young people found that exposure to alcohol advertising strongly affects whether they drink alcohol. The bottom line is that alcohol advertising hurts children. We've known this for some time. The Center on Alcohol Marketing and Youth found that from 2001 through 2003, youth in the United States were 96 times more likely to see an ad promoting alcohol than an industry ad discouraging alcohol drinking. In fact, studies have shown, 30 12/6/05 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 050865 as you heard from Dr. Godley, that children are more familiar with Budweiser's television frogs than Kelloggs, Tony the Tiger, Power Ranger or Smokey the Bear. This proposed legislation will allow children to go to and from school to play in playgrounds without being assaulted by alcohol advertisement. By enacting this, the City will act as protector of children. Sadly, our children need much more protection than we've been able to provide. As Councilman Rizzo brought up and as all of you noted, recently, to our dismay, SEPTA's Board of Directors voted to allow advertising of tobacco and alcohol on their buses, while acknowledging at the time and at that hearing that children were a large portion of their ridership. The SEPTA Board voted to reverse their existing policy, which had prohibited those ads, and now to accept those ads in spite of 31 12/6/05 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 050865 and acknowledging the potential harm to children.

Earlier this year, PCCY held forums on the problem of violence prevention and searched for answers to the problem. One of the speakers spoke consistently of the impact of the toxic environment that children live in today. Providing a decent environment, cleaning up this toxicity are all of our responsibilities. Some of the steps to do this may be small, some bigger, but they're all of a piece. We urge you to support this bill and help build a better environment for all our children and families. Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you. I'm Robin Axcelrod-Sabag from Philadelphia Safe and Sound. Good morning, Councilmembers. Thank you for giving me the opportunity 32 12/6/05 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 050865 to testify today concerning Bill 050865 amending Title of The Philadelphia Code 4 which would prohibit advertising of 5 alcohol products within a certain 6 distance of locations frequented by 7 children. 8 At Philadelphia Safe and Sound, 9 we have worked cooperatively with City departments to improve the health and well-being of children in the City of Philadelphia. This legislation is an important step to improve the quality of life in our neighborhoods and to decrease the incidence of alcohol use among our youth. Alcohol consumption by young people can lead to drug use, acquisition of sexually transmitted diseases, long-term physical and biological effects, and increased exposure to alcohol in adulthood. Nationally, alcohol consumption remains a major public health problem. About 81 percent of high school students 33 12/6/05 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 050865 drink alcohol and 31 percent binge drink at least once a month. Binge drinking here refers to having five drinks within a single setting. The incidence of alcohol use in the City of Philadelphia is also an issue of grave concern. 2 percent had more than five drinks of alcohol in a row on one of the 30 days preceding the survey. 5 of students nationwide reported that they had ridden in a car with someone who had been drinking alcohol. Alcohol consumption early in life often leads to the association of drug abuse. The National Survey on Drug 34 12/6/05 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 050865 Use and Health found that in 2004, the level of alcohol use was strongly associated with illicit drug use. 2 percent were illicit current 7 drug users. 8 According to the Center for 9 Disease Control's National Center for 10 Chronic Disease Prevention and Health 11 Promotion, alcohol use by young adults is 12 associated with earlier initiation of sexual activity, unprotected sexual intercourse, multiple partners, and increased risk for sexually transmitted diseases, as well as use of intravenous drugs. During adolescence and puberty, accelerating cascades of growth factors and sex hormones set off sexual maturation, growth in stature and muscle mass and bone development. Studies in humans have found that alcohol can lower the levels of growth in sex hormones in both adolescent boys and girls. 35 12/6/05 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 050865 Evidence is also mounting at least in animal models that early alcohol use may have detrimental effects on the developing brain, perhaps leading to problems with cognition later in life. As was stated earlier, it's very difficult to deny the power that advertising has on youth. America's youth are overwhelmed with mass media messages. Many research reports show that exposure to alcohol advertising shapes adolescents' attitudes. Much of alcohol advertising in this culture is presented in ways that appeal to youth. Alcohol advertisements overwhelmingly connect consumption of alcohol with attributes particularly important to youth, such as friendship, sex appeal, fun and prestige. It is telling that youth report alcohol ads as their favorites, especially when many other products vie for their attention. S. presidents. Beer is the beverage of choice for many youth, and between '98 and 2002, industry spending on televised beer ads increased 45 percent to $972 million. Youth also routinely see ads for alcohol beverages in magazines, on billboards and the Internet. Considering these important public health concerns related to alcohol, the prevalence of underage drinking and the association between alcohol advertising and alcohol use, it would be prudent to increase efforts to curb the negative effects of alcohol advertising. Although we cannot completely stop the media from targeting youth, we can at least do our share to limit the exposure of such pro-alcohol messages to youth in this City.

Thank you.

Thank you. Bilal. 37 12/6/05 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 050865

Good morning, Councilwoman Miller, Councilman Kenney, Councilman Ramos, Councilman Clarke and Councilman Rizzo. My name is Bilal Qaayun. I'm one of the Co-Chairs of Men United for a Better Philadelphia. I'm here this morning to support Bill No. 9 050865 amending Title of The Philadelphia Code, entitled "Regulation of Businesses, Trades and Professions." My comments are going to be very short. As we go around our work in the City of Philadelphia, we do see violence. We see more and more young folks on the streets. These young folks witness many acts of violence, and a lot of these acts of violence, as we find out, are acts of violence that are results of folks who are high, if it's either drug use or alcohol use. So we think that this bill is one of those steps taken in the City, which Councilman Clarke talked about 38 12/6/05 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 050865 earlier about the quality of life issues, and the more and more that we tighten up in our particular neighborhoods, where most of these billboards are, to eliminate these negative images of alcohol and drinking as being part of the good society when it actually isn't, we wanted to step up and come and support this effort. So we're here to give our full support to this bill.

Thank you. Reverend Jesse Brown. Please identify yourself for the record.

I'm Reverend Jesse Brown. I am representing the North Philadelphia Community and Business Initiative and the National Association of African-Americans for Positive Imagery, and I'm glad for the opportunity to testify before this Joint Committee on Public Health and Public Safety. You have just received kind of a summary of my testimony and also a 39 12/6/05 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 050865 number of photographs, and I'm going to hold up a few of these as we go through this process today. The Bill 050865 is a good bill 6 that begins to protect Philadelphia's children against targeted marketing of alcohol and of the alcohol industry and its practices. As you will take the first picture that you have in front of you, you will notice that on the storefronts there is alcohol advertising already there. In the industry, they have targeted all areas and segments of the community to market their product. The Center on Alcohol Marketing and Youth have done a number of studies, along with a number of other agencies, indicating the overexposure of young people to alcohol marketing in magazines, television, radio, even as they promote their games, video games, and in those markets as well. And we've looked at the responsibility on the dollars spent to 40 12/6/05 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 050865 promote responsible behavior as being -- well, let's just say it's basically non-existent. And we have had to endure this in the neighborhoods and the communities. Now, speaking directly to the bill, City Council has already acted responsibly before. You have eliminated alcohol advertising off of the bus shelters, which I believe will take effect by the end of this year at some point in time, while at the same time some of our other agencies, like the Southeastern Pennsylvania Transportation Authority, has gone back to advertising alcohol on the bus system, a system which many of the school kids in our City must take, have no choice but to take, and now will be once again barraged. While you have taken a very good step, they've gone backwards in the process. So, again, I have to applaud you for being consistent in both removing it off the public transportation system 41 12/6/05 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 050865 and now moving it further back from young people. This will, to a great extent, remove some of the advertising, alcohol advertising, that's there. I do have to raise a caution. In the legislation, it is noted that you want to remove 1,000 feet from the distance of churches, neighborhoods. The Supreme Court decision back at 44 Liquormart versus Rhode Island indicated that what would be most acceptable would be 500 feet, and, of course, that would be consistent with the billboard legislation that we have, I believe, in the City at this point in time, and I would hope that we would move to amend that, unless you are deciding that you're going to raise the ante and willing to take the fight wherever it goes to 1,000 feet, which I would love it, but understanding that that would be something that may not be desirable at this time, you may need to change that particular piece. 42 12/6/05 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 050865 The alcohol industry has codes of conduct for advertising practices, except that they never practice them. And if you go through the billboards, a number of the ads, you will see that this is an ad that appears or has appeared at the rising quarters Quest Charter School. And if you want to see it more closely, go to the next one, and it says "can't decide? Pick them all," as we have the young women in something there deciding on -- and this is the advertising in front of the school. You will also notice that we have a Karasi ad at our playgrounds, and if you really want to see what the Karasi ad almost looks like, you may take a look, and you got another young woman who is, if she's wearing anything, barely wearing anything, and this is around our basketball courts and our recreation center.

The next picture you have is of the advertising that is currently, and 43 12/6/05 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 050865 others like it, that currently appear on the bus stations, bus shelters, and you can see that even in this picture, we've got a mother and her young children. And, of course, you can't turn these off. They stay on forever. And, lastly, I brought just another one of those, where the industry is now supposed to be creating advertising that would be targeted or invoke young people to participate more. I guess you'll have to make up your own mind about this ad and whether or not this is something that a 35-year-old would be interested in or more of a teenager or a young person. I'll let you decide those things on your own. These are the kinds of advertising that the industry continues to practice, violating its own voluntary practice codes, and at this point, voluntary practice obviously doesn't work and the industry has not complied. So I see this as a big victory for our 44 12/6/05 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 050865 neighborhood and for our children if when this bill is enacted and we vote positively on it, and hopefully all the Council will do that soon, that it will eliminate one more step in the process of ridding our communities of the excessive amount of alcohol advertising. Thank you.

Thank you. Thank you very much. (Applause.)

Councilman Kenney.

Thank you, and thank you for your testimony. Just a couple comments on the picture. The first picture of this licensed -- I assume it's a licensed liquor establishment somewhere in Philadelphia -- is clearly in violation of the state regulations concerning liquor establishments, because there's a certain percentage of window space, wall space that -- 45 12/6/05 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 050865 (Applause.)

And the reason I raise that is because we're going to have a series of hearings after the first of the year trying to have a conversation with the Liquor Control Board as to why these licenses, established ones, are renewed based on the fact that they're probably not in compliance with out of of the 12 regulations necessary to get a liquor 13 license renewed. 14 So we may need your assistance 15 in providing us with some additional 16 photography that we can display in a 17 large scale and have them at least 18 comment on what we need to do better to 19 report and complain so that not only do 20 we limit their ability to do take-out beer, but we close them down. And I'll hopefully rely on you, Reverend and Bilal, for that kind of input.

We are prepared to provide you with not only 46 12/6/05 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 050865 local pictures but the national picture as well, and we have both those pieces. But I want to speak to one of the pieces you talked about the Liquor Control Board, the state-wide Board. We have a seat change where the Liquor Control Board's previous mandate was to protect the interest of the public. They've taken on no persona, which is to sell more alcohol. So we're going to have to really double our efforts in bringing the kind of regulations that is needed, and, in essence, the law that currently is on the books simply needs to be rewritten totally so that it becomes a law to protect the community and not something to be skirted around.

One of the things that I find extremely upsetting and really difficult to understand is that in a state like Pennsylvania, which is a control state, and there's not many control states left, one of the good 47 12/6/05 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 050865 things about it -- some of the bad things about it is the pricing, but one of the good things about a control state is you're supposed to have some control. So when you go to states -- I've traveled to Florida or down south or any other place and I go into a supermarket and I see beer and wine and alcohol, I'm shocked, because you don't see that in Pennsylvania. So that's not our experience. But one of the good things about control, having an LCB, is having some control that needs to be implemented in these type of operations, because it's really no sense in having a control state paying higher prices for alcohol and beer and then not having the benefits of the control. So that's what we're looking hopefully to have this dialogue with the state. The question that I have -- and just if anybody can answer, I don't know -- historically has outdoor 48 12/6/05 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 050865 advertising been banned for tobacco?

Yes.

I don't see any tobacco ads any longer, and I'm assuming there was some ban on tobacco either nationally or -- I assume it's a national ban.

Yes.

Do you have any history on what happened?

Yes. I was part of that process. Yes, tobacco billboards have been banned nationwide. It came in response to the settlement agreement and the lawsuits that were put out in the industry throughout the system, and in that, we've got the elimination of all tobacco billboards nationwide. That's part of the tobacco settlement agreement activities, and it is monitored by our state's Attorney General.

That was also applied to, I assume, broadcast 49 12/6/05 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 050865 advertising also, because I don't see any --

Well, that was in 1968, but that's a different agreement and it's not necessarily a ban, but it tantamounts to one, because the industry did not want to comply with the other half of that story, which was that they had to provide almost a one-to-one match in responsibility statements, and they did not want to do that.

So that was a national effort based on a settlement of a lawsuit?

Yes.

The ban on outdoor advertising?

On outdoor advertising, yes.

Fine. Thank you. Thank you.

Any other questions for this panel? 50 12/6/05 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 050865 Councilman Rizzo.

Thank you. It's amazing. You sit here and you talk about one thing and your mind races to another and you sit back and you think, we're talking about SEPTA. The taxi cab industry in this City is now moving in a direction where every cab that you see has some type of advertisement now. They've even expanded it to four sides, the front, the back, the sides. The Parking Authority now controls the taxi cab fleet here in the City, and as a member of that organization -- I'm on the Board of the oversight of the taxis and limousine -- I'm going to bring this to the Parking Authority, just make sure that they're focused on this issue also. Maybe you already know or have had some contact with the taxi cab industry, but I assume that there's more out there that use vehicles to advertise, and I think that 51 12/6/05 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 050865 we really need to focus and put a list together of all of the potential exposure. Because, again, we talked about fairness. I would like to try eventually not to give anyone the edge on the ability to do this. We knock out one and then someone else surfaces. So I think that we have to look down the road and make sure that we address every potential organization that could use this for gain.

Councilman, I just wanted to say a couple things before I left. The first is that we have to be careful that the perfect doesn't become the enemy of the good. You have before you something that you have jurisdiction over and you can enact. You also have to act on SEPTA's budget every year and what City Council, what the City approves in appropriating. The advertisements that SEPTA put in the paper -- actually, Reverend Brown and I talked about it the day 52 12/6/05 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 050865 before. We just found out that they were going to get rid of the historic ban. And while it's true that individual billboards are a problem and that the taxi cab industry is a problem, SEPTA transports tens of thousands of children every day, and they chose -- and that's a public entity. It's not just managed. That's a public entity, and they chose -- that gets our dollars all the time, and they chose to disregard the health and welfare of children and families by enacting this, and I think you do have some power in that, in addition to the power you have right now before you in terms of billboards.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Councilman, I have a quick question. In the bill, what is the fine if a company refuses to remove these billboards?

There are going to be probably, at a minimum, three 53 12/6/05 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 050865 amendments. One amendment is going to address the existing penalty. It will be an increase, and we'll amend it at that time.

Okay.

And I assume one -- go ahead, Reverend Brown. I was going to respond to some of your issues, particularly the constitutional issue.

I'll let you address those and then I have a question.

First, Reverend Brown, thank you for -- thank all of you for your expert testimony. It is much needed, and in the event that there is some litigation surrounding this ordinance, this will obviously be a part of the record. Understanding that a number of municipalities throughout this country have embarked on this path of regulating advertisement, particularly as it relates to both tobacco and alcohol, 54 12/6/05 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 050865 understanding that it is, to some degree, limiting content, which does go against the First Amendment, if you interpret it that way, but in a number of cases, particularly in the municipalities of Baltimore, Oakland, San Diego, those particular ordinances have passed constitutional muster. There are several provisions that we must approve, and I think that based on this testimony and the information and based on information that we'll be provided subsequent to this particular hearing, we think we'll be well within our bounds as it relates to our ability to pass constitutional muster. So we have our crack law team, Law Department, sitting in the audience, and they will address a couple of those issues as we proceed with this particular hearing.

I question relative to the billboards that we already have and some of the regulatory 55 12/6/05 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 050865 issues. We already have a law that regulates billboards in general, which there are penalties and so forth, but what probably needs to be strengthened is who is going to go out and actually do the legwork that is required in order to meet the process. And this may be an opportunity to include that in this legislation so that it in fact physically gets done. And may I also suggest that there are some of us, like myself and other non-profit groups in the City, who would be more than willing to, with the right funding coming through the process, to be part of that process of monitoring and providing the documentation, just as we've done with tobacco compliance issues around the state and a few things in that nature.

I understand. One of the issues with respect to a number of these quality of life initiatives and some regulations 56 12/6/05 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 050865 that are currently on the books is the enforcement arm. During the Act 39 hearings, we found that there were a number of violations existing on a number of establishments throughout the City, and it clearly showed the need to increase our enforcement mechanisms needed to be in place. We actually have Mr. Verdi here from the Department of L&I to talk about our need to create an enforcement mechanism that works. I, frankly speaking, personally think that given the NTI initiative, because I do believe that some of these quality of life issues are a part of the neighborhood transformation, we need to form a team on par with the demolition team that we put together where we had an aggressive strategy to embark on a demolition process that cleared all these neighborhoods of this blight. I think that this is equally detriment to some of these communities, because I believe a 57 12/6/05 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 050865 lot of this advertisement is in fact blight. (Applause.)

So we will be talking to the Mayor and the Administration and talking about creating a more aggressive strategy to enforce both these regulations that are currently on the books and any new regulations that will come down on the pike, and I believe there will be a substantial amount, because we are very serious about this. Mr. Qaayun, I had one question real briefly, and I kind of know the answer because I've gone out on occasion with some of you. When you and your very brave men and women go out on some of these dangerous corners, have you seen, particularly in some of these intersections, a substantial amount of advertisements on some of these establishments? Because I've seen it in my travels throughout parts of my district in the City of Philadelphia, 58 12/6/05 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 050865 that it seems that a certain type of environment creates an atmosphere for people who are involved in negative activity. Do you get a sense of that when you guys go out and take over some of these corners, that in this particular corner you may have a particular type of establishment that are plastered with all of this type of advertisement?

Yeah. We see a lot of these --

And I know that's a very leading question, but we're not in a courtroom, so I can get away with it.

We see a lot of these, I think they're called, eight sheets on stores, particularly the corner stores, on corner houses. Reverend Brown had even shown you pictures of it. I mean, we see a lot of them, and my understanding is, 99 percent of them are illegal anyhow. But most of them are ads 59 12/6/05 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 050865 that -- malt liquor and other kind of alcohol kind of ads. The ads that he showed you, Reverend Brown showed you, are on a lot of these establishments. And not only on houses, corner houses and stuff, as you know, but we see them on a lot of the stores. So that means that the stores is not only -- I think some of these pictures that Reverend Brown showed you -- the point that Councilman Kenney raised about the number on the front of the stores, then on the side of the building they have illegal billboards. So they're double. I mean, they not only have all these advertisements on the front and the bling-bling lights and all that kind of stuff, but on the side of the buildings, they have the billboards.

There are a whole host of issues that we don't address with the advertising, particularly with the alcohol industry, that they are already in violation of 60 12/6/05 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 050865 much of the City Code on how they advertise in the first place. We simply don't enforce it. They put banners. They put up banners on fences. They come into a store and place the ads themselves, not the storekeeps or the storeowners, and put them on the door fronts and any place they so desire to do so, and from what I understand from some of the door owners, it is expected that they be allowed to do that and advertise their products, which by City Code, as I understand it and got an interpretation from a number of times, that is already illegal in the first place, not to mention the other issues that have already been discussed, the amount of advertising that you can have blocking your door front. But let me add to that piece, because in a lot of other cities, the blocking of the site line from the street is a policing issue and a dangerous situation, where our police offices are 61 12/6/05 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 050865 not able to do their jobs well because of the blockage of advertising in those particular situations, and that has become a very critical issue in a number of cities and it was one in Oakland when we were helping Oakland do its piece on that issue. And so I think what I'm trying to do is, this has ramifications beyond this just little piece. It affects a lot of pieces in the neighborhood, not to mention the quality of life issues and the signals it gives that this neighborhood is a trash place, not a place to be respected.

Right. Thank you. (Applause.)

Any other questions for this panel? (No response.)

Not seeing any further questions, Panel Members, thank you so much for your very 62 12/6/05 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 050865 informative and very well-presented testimony on this very important bill. Our next panel consists of Mary Tracey, Bishop Morris, Bonita Cummings, Vivian Crawford, Tracy Gordon and Reverend William Hamilton. Good morning, Panel. Thank you for taking time from your busy schedule to come and testify on this very important bill. The Co-Chair of this hearing today, Councilman Clarke, has established ladies first, so we will follow a long-held tradition and also at the request of Councilman Clarke. So Mary Tracey and Bonita and Vivian, you guys decide who is going to go first.

I'll go. My name --

Most respectfully, as the attorney, I would like to ask you to forego and allow me to go last, if I may. Vivian Crawford.

Okay. Thank you. 63 12/6/05 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 050865

Hi. My name is Tracy Gordon. I'm Director from the Concerned Citizens for the Preservation of Philadelphia and also the African-American Heritage Coalition. " Our protest resulted in Clear Channel removing of these 17 billboards, to our success, but we 18 question who in our City is responsible 19 for monitoring negative billboards that 20 saturate our communities. And I attached 21 a copied of the flyer for you all to see. Who is on guard to protect our children from dangers, negative, unhealthy and violent subliminal images? Philadelphia needs to become more 64 12/6/05 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 050865 socially responsible. We, the citizens of Philadelphia, support Councilman Clarke's Bill 050865 and the regulations of businesses, trades and professions and a prohibition of advertising of alcohol products within a certain distance of locations frequented by children, including schools, playgrounds, recreation centers, childcares and libraries. Many cities across the nation are adopting strict rules governing either the removal of billboards or the reduction of billboards. org. Studies have shown that billboards endanger our health and safety and encourage minors to abuse alcohol. They are ambush-style of media. They can't be turned off. Our children are overexposed and ambushed with these ads. Studies have shown that most billboards are located in low-income, minority neighborhoods and that most 65 12/6/05 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 050865 billboards in those neighborhoods advertise alcohol. Not only are there an overabundance of alcohol billboards in low-income and minority neighborhoods here in Philadelphia, but we have allowed corner delis, stop-and-go's that was once set up as small, quiet taverns to completely cover their entire stores with alcohol and tobacco ads inside and out, while allowing them to continue to sell from the same window, which is illegal, candy, cookies, juice and other goodies that attract our children to their stores or, should I say, their alcohol and drug paraphernalia dens. Imagine a small child frequenting a corner neighborhood store on a daily basis that bombards them with alcohol and tobacco ads as they walk in the store. Then once they get in the store to order their candy and soft drink, the beer and malt liquors is in the same freezer as the juices, and the tobacco and blunts used for smoking 66 12/6/05 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 050865 marijuana is next to the chips, sunflower seeds and other goodies. Our youth are exposed to this from birth up until the time they decide it's okay to experiment in these habits, because all their life it is made to seem okay because of the overexposure. Our City has to become more socially responsible. Recently an investigation, story and study was done by Southwest Globe Times November the 9th of this year entitled "Billboard Blight - Putting a Stop to Illegal Advertising in Southwest Philadelphia," and they found that there has been a proliferation of negative billboards scattered throughout the City's neighborhoods, most of the time hocking negative goods like malt liquor and cigarettes, lowering property values and hampering economic growth in our area. Many of these billboards are small in size, 6 by 12 feet, called eight sheets in the billboard industry and are 67 12/6/05 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 050865 normally located on the sides of houses, buildings and empty lots, and they don't even have permits from the City to be there. I repeat, most of them do not have permits to be there. Neighborhood blight. The article went on to find that there is a website called SCRUBS, and I just met the young lady from SCRUBS, who can attest to this, Society Created to Reduce Urban Blight, where you can research and find that there were a number of illegal billboards by zip code. Out of 382 billboards listed in the 19142, 19143 and the 19153 Southwest zip code, only 43 had legal permits from the City to be there.

That means the other 339 billboards located in the area were illegal. So that answers some of your questions about -- they're there illegal anyway, so you can use that website and eliminate probably 80 percent of them. Most of these billboards were owned by PNE Media, LLC from Northern New 68 12/6/05 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 050865 Jersey. They own half of these illegal billboards in our area, 140 to be exact. To our delight, the Philadelphia Zoning Board of Adjustment gave PNE 60 days to either remove the illegal billboards or make them legal by obtaining permits. We, the citizens of Philadelphia, demand that the City go a step further and support this legislation that not only would prohibit alcohol billboards, but it should go for tobacco, violent ads and, most importantly, we need to regulate how businesses in our neighborhood use these stores or 6-by-12-feet spaces on the sides of walls in our community to advertise our youth and suggest that alcohol, sex, smoking is appealing and encouraging, on-premise site control. Not only do we need billboard regulation, but also we need on-premise site control. These on-premise site create visual clutter and contribute to the blight and the demise of our community and economically 69 12/6/05 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 050865 contribute to our property value decline. Creating sign regulations in this City will also assist us to protect our innocent youth from engaging in unhealthy behavior that leads to lowering the morale of our community, which not only is spiritually costly, but early health challenges will cost all of us in the long run. We support this bill and ask that a provision be included to address on-premise sign control. We also would like a clean sweep of all illegal billboards to be immediately removed as part of the Neighborhood Transformation Initiative. Thank you. )

Thank you. Bonita, do you want to go next?

Well, Reverend Hamilton does have to leave, so I'll forego and allow him to speak.

Proceed, 70 12/6/05 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 050865 Reverend Hamilton.

Good morning. Thank you for the opportunity to testify today concerning Bill 050865. Again, my name is Reverend Hamilton. I'm the Senior Pastor of First Fellow Church located at 30th and Cumberland Street in the Strawberry Mansion area. I see our young men and women on the corners daily smoking and drinking, and I know that billboards advertisement has a direct influence on what they do and what they think. Our community is full of billboards with information of liquor sales and tobacco. However, it does not show the negative effect the consumption of advertising has on the people drinking and smoking these items, the negative effect on the family members. I spend many hours of counseling family members on alcohol abuse, spousal abuse, young children abuse and even wanting to commit suicide. 71 12/6/05 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 050865 In addition, there are no billboards showing the health risks of such behaviors. We need billboards encouraging our young people on how to stay in school, how to become respectable adults, and also we need billboards showing what tobacco causes. We don't see the effect. We don't see the effect of alcohol abuse, the many funerals that we have to perform of young people who drink. Just this past week a 17-year-old was killed in an automobile accident, and I come to find out because of drinking. We need billboards to encourage our young people and adults to stay in school, become educated, give back to their community and to their neighborhoods. The list can go on and on, and we can stay here all day and show you the different things these billboards have the effect on our family. We don't see the ripple effect. And I came by 72 12/6/05 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 050865 today just to let you know that I'm supporting you in the bill that you have here today. Thank you.

Thank you. Thank you, Reverend Hamilton. Bonita Cummings.

Good morning, Committee. My name is Bonita Cummings. I'm the Director of Strawberry Mansion Community Concern and an elected Committee Person in the 28th Ward, 13th Division. I just wanted to say thank you, particularly to Councilman Clarke for his persistence in these nuisance businesses within the Strawberry Mansion community and in his district. That has allowed us to look a little deeper at the violations of the laws that are already in The Philadelphia Code. So I just wanted to say thank you for that. Before I testify or read my testimony, I just wanted to read from a 73 12/6/05 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 050865 book that I was reading called Drugs Masquerading As Foods, and I just wanted to read the ingredients of malt liquor so that we can have an idea of what it is that we do to our young people when they see those advertisements, those attractive advertisements, and when they buy this liquor and they drink it. It says, "Other deadly poisons in malt liquor and beer include petroleum, isobutanol," which is natural gas, "sugar, alcohol, wood and starch alcohol. These poisons deteriorate the brain, sex organs, liver, pancreas and lungs. " Advertising is a cumulative of negative nuisances that impact the urban cities. It is one heck of a concoction. Bad businesses, bad business owners, add crack cocaine, malt liquor sales and negative subliminal advertising, put the young children from toddlers up in the 74 12/6/05 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 050865 mix before they can even walk good and you have generation after generation of destroyed children and families in neighborhoods. We can go back and forth about who is right and who is wrong. The statistics and facts of devastation from negative advertisement speaks for itself. Today we will not hear an apology from the advertising agencies, presidents and CEOs of advertising companies, owners of advertising agencies or advertising lobbyists or anyone associated with the advertising industry. What we will hear is the right to freedom of speech. We won't hear any of the offenders say, We have destroyed your communities, your babies and neighborhoods enough. We won't hear any of the offenders say, We hear you, community. We hear you, children. We hear you, neighborhoods. We won't hear anyone say, Today is the day that we, the advertisers, become a community partner. We won't hear the offenders say that, 75 12/6/05 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 050865 Today is the day that we look at the problem as a whole body and not just the head. We won't hear the offenders say that, Today is the day that we embrace Bill No. 050865 and work with the legislative bodies and community representatives on what's acceptable and allowing the 1,000 feet of any school, public playground, recreation center, childcare center, library or church stand. They should lobby the courts to say that they want to make a correction. They want 1,000 feet to be the standard, overriding any previous ruling. Communities are crying out for a balance. We must strike a balance between good and evil. Nothing should be all negative or evil or only produce negative results. As I stated in yesterday's hearing, until we approach these nuisance matters as a whole component and use the verification of compliance form of 76 12/6/05 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 050865 existing and new laws, we will continue to have these types of hearings on laws that are already a part of The Philadelphia Code. Advertising and its appropriateness can be a part of the compliance form. This way, compliance will have to be met annually before the businesses are granted a renewal for the City's business privilege license, and for businesses that it applies, before they could even send their renewal to the state, they would have to be in compliance and the form would have to come directly from the City's Department of Licenses and Inspections to the state, which is how the City of Philadelphia's daycare facilities are renewed.

We have spoken with the Administration regarding this compliance process and form, and we are waiting for a return call from Connie Little regarding setting up a meeting with L&I. Maybe someone from this Committee could 77 12/6/05 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 050865 further follow up. And for your review, the compliance forms used by the daycare facilities and boarding homes are attached to my testimony. Thank you very much. And the form looks like this. It already has compliance aspects to certain types of businesses in our community. We could tweak it a little and get advertising, all types. We could add community businesses to it and put some other things that are necessary, where if before you even can do anything else, you pass this form, we could eliminate some of the nuisances that we presently have. Thank you.

Thank you, Bonita. I believe we have Mary Tracey left. Please proceed. We have Vivian Crawford.

Councilwoman Miller, I've asked that our Chair of SCRUB also join us with a brief 78 12/6/05 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 050865 statement, if that's --

That's fine, perfectly fine. Thank you. Please proceed. Identify yourself and proceed.

Good morning. My name is Javita Hill, and I appear today wearing several hats. I serve as the Chair of the Society Created to Reduce Urban Blight, which is better known as SCRUB. I am also a member of the Logan Square Neighborhood Association, and I am a founding member of Friends of Logan Square North of the Parkway, and I am a Democratic Committee Person for the 8th Ward, 24th Division. I would first like to thank Council for introducing Bill 050865 that would prohibit the advertising of alcohol products within 1,000 feet of schools, playgrounds, recreation centers, childcare centers, libraries. This shows that you care about the health and safety of our young people, and for this, you 79 12/6/05 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 050865 have my appreciation and that of our entire City. As we are all well aware, the proliferation of these advertising messages are detrimental to the health and well-being of our young people, and in many cases, alcoholic beverage advertising is often offensive by its racist and sexist nature. Alcohol beverage advertising is also classist, in that the proliferation of these ads is highest in our neighborhoods with the lowest socioeconomics. However, in most instances, our children would be protected from these messages if City Council would insist on enforcing the regulations that are already on the books regarding outdoor advertising. Philadelphia has over 800 illegal billboards, and nearly half of them are in the Fifth Councilmanic District where I live and where my business is located. And the sad but 80 12/6/05 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 050865 true nature of where these illegal billboards exist follows a socioeconomic pattern from zero billboards in Center City and as you move further north and the poorer you go, the more illegal billboards you will find. And, yes, many of these billboards are advertisements for alcoholic beverages. Our zoning code as it exists now prohibits outdoor advertising within 660 feet of schools, playgrounds, parks, childcare centers, recreation centers and libraries, and 300 feet of residential areas. So my question becomes, how will Council enforce the 1,000 feet rule when billboard owners are already thumbing their noses at our zoning code? As a former journalist and currently a film and video producer and a long-time civic and political activist, I have always been a staunch advocate of First Amendment rights, especially those that protect speech, and to this extent, I am loathed to single out one 81 12/6/05 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 050865 advertising message over another. For instance, young people are exposed to numerous fast-food messages when we are in the midst of a childhood obesity crisis. So my final question would be whether passage of this proposed bill 9 would mean open season for outdoor advertising that isn't for alcoholic beverages, and I would hope that this is not the case. If I could make a suggestion, I would offer that Council consider expanding the 660-foot rule for all outdoor advertising to 1,000 feet, and that any new legislation would include tough penalties for violators. Without stiff penalties, outdoor advertisers would continue to violate the new laws just like they are violating our existing laws. So I thank you for this opportunity.

Thank 82 12/6/05 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 050865 you. Thank you for your testimony. Mary Tracey, are you going next?

Yes. My name is Mary Tracey and I am the Executive Director of SCRUB, the Society Created to Reduce Urban Blight, and I appreciate the invitation to speak today and testify on behalf of this bill. As most of you may know, SCRUB started years ago on the issue of 13 outdoor advertising in Philadelphia, and 14 one of the great drivers of that 15 legislation was the proliferation of outdoor advertising in our most impoverished neighborhoods, and the messages on those signs largely focusing on alcohol and tobacco. And there was a great energy. And, in fact, when I first met Reverend Brown and we were on the same side, as many others were, health organizations, business owners, educators, community residents, architects, many, many people got behind 83 12/6/05 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 050865 the laws to regulate outdoor advertising in the City. And one of the great, I guess, puzzles in this City is what happened to the enforcement of that legislation. SCRUB that was formed just as a coalition to help get that law passed is still here today now as a non-profit 501(c) to help get that law enforced, and I personally have dedicated years of 12 my life to try to put an end to this 13 problem, and I think the speakers today 14 have so eloquently described the effects 15 of that law not being enforced. Because not only does it continue to have the culture in neighborhoods of glamorizing alcohol, but it also sends a message that laws are meaningless. And as our lawmakers, I think that's very scary, because you're trying to solve problems, you're responding to your constituents' concerns, and what I learned back in 1991 is that it doesn't stop there. It can't stop there. The enforcement piece of it 84 12/6/05 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 050865 is the major piece of it. And we have limited resources here in the City of Philadelphia, and I don't think we can continue to just point the finger at Department of Licenses and Inspections, because we continue to pass laws for them to enforce without giving them the resources they need to enforce those laws. (Applause.)

And a lot of times these laws to be enforced don't really require money. I mean, we have communities here, given the proper tools and the education about what the laws are, can be the conduits by which these laws are actually enforced, and systems can be set up that we work as a team and we get things done. But there has to be the will. The political will has to equal what the community will is. And I think Ms. Cummings eloquently stated what the legal tools that are now used by the outdoor 85 12/6/05 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 050865 advertising industry to thwart the citizens' will and even the will of our lawmakers. I personally have been in court over the last years probably 40, 50 7 times. We have published 14 or 15 8 Commonwealth Court decisions regarding 9 outdoor advertising, yet our Zoning Board 10 continues to give variances for 11 billboards that violate our laws. I 12 mean, what is that about? 13 We have 850 billboards that PNE 14 Media has indicated are illegal, that 15 they never bothered to get a license for, and instead of just going in and taking them down, we spend enormous resources, legal resources, of Zoning Board resources, and it just becomes a vicious circle. It's a circle that just starts over. It never ends. And meantime, they're making money. They are making money by violating the law. And they're, again, setting this culture that laws are meaningless in the City of Philadelphia. 86 12/6/05 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 050865 So I would be very, very interested in working with this Committee and with any Councilmembers who would like to not only address the problem with a new law, but actually look at a way to solve the problem through a City-wide enforcement effort. Thank you.

Thank you.

One other thing. I did want to just pass this up. I sort of got carried away there. I have a GIS study of the existing billboards, and I'll pass this up, but I've passed this up at a past hearing. It really shows quite clearly where the problem is. There's been much testimony here about the proliferation in our low-income areas, but this GIS map really shows that. Because the lighter the color, the more signs there are. Each of these dots indicates three billboards located in that zip code area. And so you can pass 87 12/6/05 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 050865 these around. You'll see that our areas that are most impoverished have the greatest proliferation of signs. It also shows there which are legal and which are illegal by the testimony of the outdoor advertising industry themselves back in 1990 before passage of the law. And I'll also pass up the PNE Media billboards that we're now litigating at the Zoning Board about. You can see in district -- we just put together how many are in each district. And in District 1 -- I don't see Councilman DiCicco here, but there are 24 in his district. In Council President Anna Verna's, there are 63. In Councilwoman Jannie Blackwell's, there are 247. In Councilman Michael Nutter's, there are 76. And in Councilman Darrell Clarke's, there are 308. In Councilwoman Joan Krajewski's, there are only seven. In Councilman Richard Mariano's, there are 57. In Councilwoman Donna Reed 88 12/6/05 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 050865 Miller's, there are 117. In Councilwoman Marian Tasco's, ten. And in Councilman Brian O'Neill's district, there is one. So I think the proof is in the pudding there, and it's something that the community has spoken up before and they're speaking up now, and let's make it happen. Thank you. (Applause.)

Thank you. Councilman Kenney.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I just have a question relative to the issue of enforcement. Who in the Administration or what contact in the Administration have you been making with the Mayor's ability to direct L&I to start removing billboards? Because I want to make sure the record is clear that -- and I understand. I hear your frustration, and I understand it, but, 89 12/6/05 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 050865 again, as Council and Councilman Clarke and others try to address this problem legislatively, we live in a city that has a very strong mayoral form of government, where the Mayor appoints the entire Zoning Board without consideration from us or without approval, and appoints every Commissioner of every department in the City, including License and Inspections. What contact have you had, what interface with the Administration to get them to enforce the law? Because as I hear your frustration directed towards us and the fact that these billboards exist and are not being removed, I have the ability to pick up the phone and call a Commissioner, but not direct a Commissioner. So who in the Administration is getting back to you on when they're going to start taking the billboards down?

Well, Councilman, that is an excellent question, and I 90 12/6/05 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 050865 suppose I'm not working as closely with the Mayor's office as I would like.

I think I'm on that list. I think I'm on that same list.

And I hear you, and we've even been frustrated when L&I and the Law Department has been about to actually seek removal and suddenly that process is blocked. And we're not quite sure where it comes from, but we always hear it's from the highest level.

There is nothing here --

So I don't know really who we should be working with, I guess.

Theoretically, there's nothing to stop the Mayor from directing the City Solicitor to go into court to get an order for the removal of just say the eight sheets, just those to start, and then to go out and get a proposal and 91 12/6/05 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 050865 some bids for a company, not L&I, not the L&I employees, because they're over-taxed, to get a private company, the lowest responsible bidder, with the court order in hand to go out and start removing the signs. I mean, I don't understand why that's not the case. And I also think that a lot of this anger, frustration could be directed not only here, which is your right to do, but on the second floor where the real answer could come. So, again, we're going to continue to try to do our best to address this legislatively. And in legislation all the time, in many areas, not only this, but other Councilmembers and myself have gotten things passed, not dealing with billboards, but other issues, that just simply don't get enforced or you need to go to court to force the Administration to enforce the laws that unanimously were passed by this Council. So I think an effort needs to 92 12/6/05 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 050865 be made to -- and, again, there's all levels of advertising outdoors. I mean, we have the large billboards that you see on the bridge going over to Jersey. You have billboards in areas that are in shopping areas that are -- there's all levels of intrusion into people's neighborhoods and into people's life, but when it comes to the concentration of these clearly illegal signs in neighborhoods that are 247, 196, 312 and then you go to the Northeast and there's one, I mean, there's no reason in the world why a private company with the direction of the Administration and the Law Department's involvement shouldn't be out there on ladders right now removing them. (Applause.)

Well, maybe before we leave today, we should all stop by the Mayor's office.

Thank you. 93 12/6/05 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 050865 Ms. Crawford.

Yes. Thank you for the opportunity to speak. I always like to reserve the right to go last because I sort of want to act as a clean-up person. There are a couple of things that I'd like to address with the Committee this morning, and, that is, as some of you know, I ran for Judge last year, and I have a friend who has a bulletin board on the top of his building. He's a client, and he said to me, Look, I want to put your sign up. It faces I-95, and we'll put your sign up so that -- and he had done this for my husband before me, so this was not anything that was unusual. And it's interesting to me that we hear all of this about L&I and who should enforce the laws that are already there. My friend got a visit from somebody from L&I saying, Take the billboard down. It faces I-95, but take 94 12/6/05 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 050865 it down. It's on your building, it's your billboard. Now, we took the sign down because clearly as an attorney, I have an obligation to obey the laws. But I just thought it amazing to me that my billboard, which faced I-95, had to come down and then I see all of these illegal billboards that nobody has time. I'm just wondering how that works, but I just thought I would throw that in. Now, the next thing is, for those of you that know me, I have a history in the record business. In 1985, as a result of my son wanting to play one of Prince's DVDs -- I mean CDs. I date myself. I listened to the lyrics, and my son, who was a very precocious child, it was a song called Darling Nicky, and I will not -- I'll just let you know that it was a song by Prince and it said that, I met a little girl named Nicky and I guess you could say she was a sex fiend. I met her in a hotel lobby, and it said 95 12/6/05 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 050865 something she was doing with a magazine. And that bothered me, and I became involved with the record industry to try to do some things about addressing the kinds of messages that our kids hear. Now, where I'm headed with this is that I understand in looking at the schedule that we're going to hear people come in from the advertising industry talking about First Amendment rights. The record industry recognized that there was a problem, that we had to do something at least to allow parents to know what their children were listening to, and we came up with labeling. I am here as an attorney. Of course, I support the First Amendment. I would be the last person in the world that would want to see an abrogation of that, but there's another way to look at this, and it's called social responsibility. The record industry decided that someone had to step up to the plate and at least do something, so let's label 96 12/6/05 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 050865 the music. They had a right to continue. These artists had a right to continue with the messages, but the fact is, at least give the parents labeling. Now, the thing that happens with that is, labeling and what comes into your house you can somewhat police, but outdoor advertising you cannot. I am here to say to all of these First Amendment people that are going to come here and spout out that they have a right for advertising and that we should be looking at this from a federal standpoint and that we should not be trying to abrogate their First Amendment rights, we are here to say to you, Have some social responsibility. We are here to say, Just because you have a right to do something doesn't mean that you should do it. So I'm not persuaded by people that want to wave the Constitution at me and say, I have a right to do this. You don't live in the communities that are 97 12/6/05 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 050865 affected by this. You get in your car and you drive to wherever you live where you don't have these advertisements. So I am saying to you, I don't care about your First Amendment rights. I am not a person that's trying to take them away from you, but what I am saying to you is, You have some human responsibility.

And I am asking that these advertisers tell us where they live. Let us go put some illegal signs in their neighborhoods and see how they like it. So this is not about what's legal. This is about what is human, what is decent and what is right. So come up with your First Amendment arguments if you want, but you need to recognize that what goes on in our communities is directly affected by your irresponsible behavior. Albeit that you have a First Amendment right to do it, you have a human right to try to co-exist. So to all of these guys that are going to come up here with their 98 12/6/05 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 050865 wonderful arguments and their $5,000 suits and their $3,000 briefcases, guess what? You are negatively impacting this community, and you need to bear some social responsibility for that and you need to come in and offer -- as Bonita said, they're not apologizing. They're not going to come in and offer an apology to what happens in these communities. They are not going to say to these ladies that have worked for years to 13 straighten this problem out, Oh, we're 14 sorry. They're just going to say, We 15 have a right to do it. So I want to make it clear, I want these advertisers to understand we don't like what you're doing and you need to be a better person and come up with a way to advertise your products that does not negatively impact on a community. This is devastation in our community. I thank you very much. )

Thank 99 12/6/05 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 050865 you.

I just want to add and ask Councilman Kenney and the rest of you all, I remember when the Mayor did that initiative with the hundred thousand car removal and then he did an initiative with the demolition. And so what you're saying to us, Councilman Kenney, we're not actually directing the anger, it's just that you all gave us this vehicle, this opportunity to come here as a joint. So we don't want to walk away from here like we walked away from Act 39, in which they still -- they don't have no respect for us here in Philadelphia, the City of Philadelphia. They have allowed us to be disgraced as a modern society. So what I'm saying, I want to know from you all, because you hear our testimony today, what can we do to get a clean sweep, get some of the money out of that NTI budget and that commercial corridor budget and give somebody this contract and we have immediate day of 100 12/6/05 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 050865 billboard legal and illegal removal, and they have to go and reapply the right way. Because we're going to keep coming back and forth here every day, every month, every year. In years, I didn't know -- 8 and Reverend Jesse is part of our 9 coalition. He has these pictures. He 10 had those pictures 20 years ago. And 11 it's time to make a change. They're 12 coming here now, the speculators, the 13 developers that come in here and our 14 properties values is going up. I don't 15 know how in the world our property values could go up when in the Fifth District you got 308 negative billboards. How is our properties values going up with all this negativity and this filth and dirt? Look at this. This is how all the stop-and-go's stores look. This is not just one. All of them look like this. You can ask a kid two years old, What's a blunt, and they'll tell you 101 12/6/05 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 050865 what a blunt is before most of ya'll know what a blunt is. They know what a blunt is. They are not cigars. Everybody that smokes cigars know a blunt is used to -- is drug paraphernalia used to sell alcohol and tobacco. And we're going to come here. They kicked us in the face with Act 39. They're going to attempt to kick us in the face with the bill that you're passing. And I understand what you're saying, Councilman Kenney, that we should march, and we are going to march up on the second floor and ask for a meeting with the Mayor and do something about it, but social responsibility is missing in the City of Brotherly Love.

Before Councilman Clarke comments, the NTI issue has been more of a district issue than it has been at-large, but don't get me wrong, I think you have every right to come in here and express your anger and 102 12/6/05 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 050865 concern and any other emotion that you want to express. This is what our job is. This is what we're here for. And I want you to understand that everyone on this panel and everyone in this room that sits in here has empathy and compassion for what you're talking about. So, I mean, don't ever think that we don't want to hear you, because that's our job to hear you. It's just that how does it get done in the end is the question, and that's what I don't know the answer to.

We know how to get it done. We just don't have the authority, the money and the resources. We have the will. We have the knowledge. We have the energy. We have the passion. We have bearing our sons and daughters. We got everything there. We just don't have the authority. We don't have the authority.

I understand. 103 12/6/05 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 050865

Give us the authority to do something or make -- just like she said, there's some conspiracy going on here, and I've heard this before, where now that billboard didn't go up -- a positive role model that was running for judge, that billboard had to mysteriously get taken down? Who authorized that? And I'm not saying to put her on the spot or the billboard owner on the spot, but there's somebody in this City, there's some hanky-panky going on, where we got rules and regulations in the book. I got like books stacked this high with rules that govern this City. This could be a beautiful City for all of us, not just some, not just in the district of, what's his name, the one, District 10, Brian O'Neill. I live in District 2. I want to live beautiful, too. I'm a good human citizen. I want my kids to grow up -- I mean, don't mind me. I'm sure that in District 10 the kids is smoking and 104 12/6/05 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 050865 drinking, too, because we can't control the TVs and whatever like that, but I want my grand kids to be able to walk to a corner store like I used to do and go get some candy and go get a juice without having to push past drunks and drug dealers and blunts and malt liquor. It's just -- it's unbelievable. And these store owners and these people that are doing this do not live in our neighborhood. If you go in their neighborhoods in Bucks County and Delaware County, you do not see this. And they allowing this stuff to affect a great City. This is one of the first original cities, and it's just like when people -- I go outside the City, people say Philadelphia and all they think of is negative. They don't never think of nothing positive of us, positive healthy people. They always think of a negative conversation. Things got to change. It 105 12/6/05 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 050865 really do. (Applause.)

Councilman Clarke.

Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you for your wonderful testimony. I just wanted to say one thing. I've actually had some conversations with the L&I Commissioner about the need to be more aggressive with some of these issues, and earlier in my testimony, I indicated that I was going to have some conversation with the Mayor. As a District Councilperson, I'm clearly not in charge of the second floor or in charge of the City. I'm not even in charge of my district. I just serve my district, and some people would question whether or not sometimes I'm in charge of my staff. But what I want to say today is that I'm going to put myself on the limb. I'm going to say here today that within 106 12/6/05 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 050865 30 days, we will have an announcement -- and when I say "we," I mean all of us, because all of us in government have a responsibility regardless of what side of the aisle you sit on or what office you hold. Within 30 days, we will have an announcement talking about an aggressive initiative to rid all districts, particularly those districts that had a high volume of illegal signs, and get it done. All right? I don't know what it's going to cost, if it's going to cost some additional dollars. As we move ahead to the budget process early next year, then that's the time to address that. If it calls for some redeployment of personnel to address that, then so be it. But I have to believe given the significance of this issue, because it is in fact a way to transform a neighborhood and probably a less costly way than it costs us to demolish a building, because we're spending around $15,000, $20,000 107 12/6/05 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 050865 per building, and we're simply talking about removing a sign, that I --

What about these the stop-and-go's? This is illegal already.

Well, I don't think that we should be singly focused on signage. I think we should be focused on all levels of quality of life that are in violation of our existing codes. If it calls for us setting up a team that deals solely with violation of quality of life initiatives, then so be it. I don't know what the specifics of it will be, but I'm just going to personally commit to ensure within 30 days, there is an announcement by whoever needs to be available, I hope all 17 members of Council and the Mayor, and stand there and say that we -- well, actually, 16 members. We can stand there and say, We have an initiative, we're going to aggressively embark on cleaning 108 12/6/05 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 050865 this City up of all of this mess. All right? (Applause.)

Thank you.

Councilman Kenney.

Thank you. I wholeheartedly endorse everything that Councilman Clarke has said, and I think that knowing his relationship with the Administration, I think he can probably get the door open to get this discussion. One of the things I'd like to add onto that would be a wonderful situation. And I know a lot of the issues surrounding the enforcement deals with the level of personnel that we have, and bringing more people in the government is expensive and L&I is overrun with things that they have to enforce. It would be wonderful to bid a job like that out, and just think how great it would be to be able to hire people from the neighborhood to have 109 12/6/05 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 050865 employment -- (Applause.)

I think they'd do it for free.

To have the opportunity to be employed, taking down negative images in their own neighborhood. I think the whole thing would be a win-win for everybody.

That would be wonderful.

So I endorse Councilman Clarke.

May I add something to that?

Yes.

I think that would be wonderful and I hope that that does happen, but I would also hope that there would be an additional fine for the violators, because essentially the burden is going to be shifted to the taxpayers. That means we're going to pay to take these down, when the violators should pay 110 12/6/05 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 050865 to take them down and not the taxpayers.

Point well made.

We're actually going to increase the penalties with one of our amendments.

Councilman Rizzo.

Thank you. That's a great point that you made, and that's one of the things that I wanted to say, that we need to hear yet from the industry. I would hope that they would be responsible like any company that is doing something that is deemed improper, if they can't make it right, if they can't go through the process to legitimize whatever they have, then I can't imagine a company, a significant company, just thumbing their nose. And so I hope that we can, Mary --

They have been for years.

I know they 111 12/6/05 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 050865 have, but this is a new year. Mary, you can comment on what the industry has done to respond other than -- I'm sure they're going to try to do everything they can legally to keep that presence, but once it's deemed that it's illegal -- and I know L&I has done a lot of work. A senior staff at L&I has done a year-long job of cataloguing and identifying legal versus illegal, but maybe you can fill us in on what the industry itself -- I know the representatives of the industry are here that I would hope would have some comments for the record today.

May I just address one thing, because I know that the industry is present in this room and representatives from the industry are present in this room. I think what needs to happen -- the African-American Heritage Coalition banned together to get the 50 Cent billboards taken down, as Tracy just indicated, but I look at things from a greater perspective or a 112 12/6/05 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 050865 larger perspective, because some of these companies with these billboards have other business interests in our community. Now, it would be a shame, it would be a shame for us to start asking people to stop listening to radio channels. It would be a shame for us to stop asking people to advertise with these various radio channels because they own billboards, but we will go in that direction if they don't do something, because they need to be socially responsible, and I just want to make that clear. This is not an idle threat. This is us saying, Be responsible to the community of Philadelphia. This is the country seat of the nation. This is where everything started. And just like everything good started here, we are capable of trying to organize nationally against these interests and their other business interests if they do not come to the table and act like they know. We did it with Trailways in 1965 when we laid in 113 12/6/05 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 050865 front of buses and made them hire black bus drivers. I was part of that with Cecil Moore. So I know what you can do if you just look at it and take a greater perspective, and that's what we're prepared to do.

I would hope that they would respond appropriately, and if they don't, that's a good second step.

Thank you.

Again, I'd like to underscore that I would like to shift the economic burden to the violators and not to the taxpayers.

To answer your question regarding --

Maybe there's some way we can do that. When we're out here transforming neighborhoods through NTI, we wouldn't get anything done if we shifted the financial responsibility to demolish a property to the owners of the properties. We did 114 12/6/05 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 050865 what we had to do, and then hopefully some of those owners will pay through liens. However, in order for us to get it done, we can't, in a sense, delay it waiting to shift the ownership of that to the violators. I think the violators should be fined. I think we should do whatever we need to do to enforce the laws here. But we worked hard to transform neighborhoods. Lots of advertising is contributing to the blight in our neighborhoods. You have to remember, we live in these neighborhoods also. So we're very clear and we really understand what's going on in a lot of the neighborhoods, particularly those signs on those store windows. It's just a mess. Just a mess. As a customer, I wouldn't even want to go in there, because I want to be able to see inside before you go inside. Okay? But we need to move on. We still have other people. I really thank 115 12/6/05 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 050865 you for testifying.

Thank you.

Thank you.

We're going to bring on L&I. After L&I, we will have Chris Wally, Priscilla Bennett, Tyrone Williams and Greg Spearman. Thank you for coming, Commissioner, and your staff. COMMISSIONER SOLVIBILE: Good afternoon. I apologize, but I was not prepared -- actually, I'm prepared always, but I didn't realize I'd be here today and I dressed for the weather versus where I should have been. So I apologize for the way I'm dressed. But I bring to you two gentlemen on my right and left that between us we can give you, I think, great testimony as to where the Department is and where we're going. My name is Bob Solvibile. I'm Commissioner of Licensing and Inspections. DEPUTY COMMISSIONER VERDI: 116 12/6/05 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 050865 Good day, Councilwoman Miller, members of the City Council. I'm Dominic Verdi, Deputy Commissioner for the Department of License and Inspections. Today I'm here to provide testimony on Bill 050865, which, if enacted, will prohibit the advertising of alcoholic beverages within 1,000 feet of certain occupancies frequented or occupied by children. The Department of License and Inspections is fully supportive of any initiative that restricts certain activity for the protection of children in our City. With regard to the specifics of this bill, we are prepared to respond to any complaint that is directed to us and enforce the provisions of this bill should it be enacted into law. Current local laws do not address content and, as such, there is no 23 requirement for permits or licenses related to advertisement placed on a sign structure. Bill 050865 will address this 117 12/6/05 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 050865 issue by prohibiting the advertisement of alcoholic beverages within proximity to the occupancies mentioned in the bill 5 that are predominantly frequented or occupied by children. This will give the Department enforcement ability to cite violators and to require the removal of content matter that is in violation. If the responsible party for the sign fails to comply, the Department, with the assistance of the City Solicitor's office, will proceed with our enforcement remedies, which shall include a recommendation to the Judge for maximum fines permitted under the law and to issue an order to the sign owner to immediately remove the offending sign. We will be offering a friendly amendment to Bill 050865 to link the penalties and abatement provisions of Section 9-602 governing "Outdoor Advertising" to this new section which will give the Department the ability to 118 12/6/05 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 050865 remove the offending content, subject to an order of the Court, if the owner of the sign fails to do so within the allotted time period. Thank you for the opportunity to provide the Department's testimony on Bill 050865. I would be happy to answer any questions at this time.

Thank you. Are there any questions of this witness? Can you tell me what makes a sign illegal versus legal? COMMISSIONER SOLVIBILE: There are several different signs. There's billboards and -- well, most eight sheets -- I think in the City of Philadelphia, there is only roughly 20-some eight sheets that are legal. The rest of them are illegal. And of the billboards, there's roughly a thousand that are not zoned. So the bottom line is, 119 12/6/05 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 050865 Councilwoman, that the billboard and/or sign needs to be properly zoned and licensed, and that's what would make it illegal, the lack of zoning and the permit. The lack of a zoning permit, there is roughly in the City of Philadelphia, there is roughly -- and I'm going to approximate -- 4,000 sign faces in the City of Philadelphia. That's billboards and eight sheets. Roughly there's 985, I believe, eight sheets in the City of Philadelphia. Approximately of them are properly zoned that are 16 legal. The rest are not legal, and 17 violations have been written. And we are 18 in the middle of negotiating with the 19 owner of the company and the Law 20 Department and the company that owns the eight sheets, negotiating the removal process for that.

I'm sorry. Point of information. Could you tell the name of 120 12/6/05 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 050865 the -- who is the company? They're the owner of all the illegal eight sheets? COMMISSIONER SOLVIBILE: Yes. Chesapeake Outdoor Enterprises and also --

So there's one company that owns all of the illegal eight sheets? DEPUTY COMMISSIONER VERDI: Almost all of the eight sheets are owned by that company.

We're not talking about billboards on a pole. We're talking about eight sheets on the wall. COMMISSIONER SOLVIBILE: An eight sheet I would describe as a picture on the wall fastened by screws.

It's Chesapeake Outdoor Advertising? COMMISSIONER SOLVIBILE: Yes. It used to be PVI, the parent company. There's all kinds of legalities as to who owns the parent company, but that's been 121 12/6/05 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 050865 between the Law Department and the City have been negotiating. PNE Media -- Chesapeake no longer owns the billboards company. It's now called PNE Media, who is the parent company, the owner of all these billboards.

I'm sorry, Madam Chair. I don't mean to put them off track, but I think it's important that you distinguish when you say "billboard" that you mean either an eight sheet or a traditional billboard. Because there's traditional billboards along 95 that may be legal or not legal, but we're not really talking about those. These are the ones that are kind of in the neighborhood streets against the wall in people's faces every day. COMMISSIONER SOLVIBILE: Correct. That would be -- when I testify and when Otis or Dom and I testify, we'll say eight sheets or billboards. In the case of PNE Media, they own the eight sheets in the City of 122 12/6/05 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 050865 Philadelphia, and there's roughly 900-and-some. Of the eight sheets in the City of Philadelphia, of them are 5 legal, roughly 20. I'm using approximate 6 numbers now. 7

But they 8 don't own the wall that the eight sheets 9 attach to? 10 COMMISSIONER SOLVIBILE: No, 11 they do not own the wall. They own the 12 sign. From a meeting I attended, they 13 have some sort of an agreement with the 14 owners of the wall that it's on. They 15 pay them rent, and then they ream money 16 from the advertisement that's there. 17

So who 18 gets the fine then? Would the owner of 19 the wall get the fine? I mean, if I'm 20 doing something illegal in my home, then I get the fine, not the product. COMMISSIONER SOLVIBILE: In this case, we sent a violation notice for -- the latest legal battle, I'll call it, and I don't want to really -- in the 123 12/6/05 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 050865 sense that the latest violations that were sent were sent to PNE Media to remove the signs that they legally owned. And we chose not to send the violation notice to the individual owners of the wall because we wanted Media -- not we wanted; we presently want the PNE Media Company to remove all the eight sheets in all the neighborhoods. There's back and forth between the Law Department and their lawyers as to the time frame when the signs will be removed, and that's where it is right now. There's been no agreement as to the time frame. They have agreed that they will remove the signs; just that on a time frame, there's no agreement.

How much time do they get, though, I mean, normally before you actually have to take them into court to get them to remove? COMMISSIONER SOLVIBILE: Normally it's 30 days. We are negotiating -- they filed an appeal. We 124 12/6/05 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 050865 sent, Councilwoman, for eight sheets, we sent a violation notice to PNE Media. They responded by filing an appeal to the Zoning Board of Adjustment. And there was a hearing scheduled for tomorrow in front of the ZBA, but I believe a party aggrieved by it has asked to have it withdrawn because one of the Board members cannot be present. That's what I was told this morning, that the hearing for tomorrow is cancelled. But aside from the hearings, the Law Department is negotiating with the lawyers for PNE Media to have them remove the signs in the neighborhoods. The hold-up now is the amount of time that they want to remove it before we sign the agreement.

Okay. Councilman Rizzo has a point of information.

Commissioner, I normally agree with most of what you do over there, but I just 125 12/6/05 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 050865 can't imagine that the owner of the structure that the billboard is attached to isn't a party in this conversation. The person that probably has an illegal billboard attached doesn't have a business license or isn't paying any taxes on the revenue that is received from the illegal attachment to their building. So I just can't imagine that they aren't a party to this process. COMMISSIONER SOLVIBILE: I attended a meeting with the Law Department and L&I, and a decision was made that the easier -- the person responsible who pays the owners to have them there is in fact the eight sheet owner, the company that owns the eight sheets, and that we'll attack them to get them to remove their signs, because without them paying the rent, there would be no, in fact, violation.

But if a building owner was part of it, you'd have additional pressure. I mean, the way you 126 12/6/05 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 050865 work normally is that the building owner that has -- my God, we had signs on buildings that stuck out two inches than the Code allowed, and you cited the building owner for the sign. It was their sign, but my point being is, common sense, I can't imagine the Law Department excluding the building owner from this process, because that's additional pressure. If we're trying to accomplish something, then get everybody involved, let them know that they may be violating the law, tax laws, by not reporting probably the revenue if it's illegal. I mean, let me tell you, if a building owner got a letter from L&I, from you, indicating that they have an illegal sign and you know it, I think that they would be motivated to be cooperative to get that sign off of there if it was indeed illegal. COMMISSIONER SOLVIBILE: The feeling in the room was we would be more effective with dealing with -- I'm only 127 12/6/05 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 050865 going back to that meeting and trying to in my memory --

Well, the feeling in this room is that if you're trying to get it done, you involve everybody absolutely necessary to deliver the message. And for a lawyer to say just go after the owner of the sign and not the person that's benefiting from the sign, to me, doesn't make any sense. (Applause.)

That's actually the point I was trying to make. If I'm operating, and I'll just use something mild and meek, a restaurant in my home illegally, you're not going to go after the people that produce the food. You're going to come after Donna Miller. So I don't understand why this is different. COMMISSIONER SOLVIBILE: I can't argue, because I don't know that I disagree. So I will go back and have a discussion with the Law Department and, 128 12/6/05 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 050865 in fact, suggest that we also send, in addition to the sign company that has received the violation notices from us, to notify the individual owners of the fact that there's a violation.

Can I please follow up on that?

Okay. And then we'll have --

Also, on the cost, if we get to the point where we start physically removing these signs, to take the burden away from the taxpayer, there is obviously a way to go back after -- we're not talking about a property owner that walks away. We're talking about a billion-dollar, in many cases, industry. If you had to take a billboard down, how would you go back or what tools do you have to lien that company to make them responsible for the costs associated with the removal? COMMISSIONER SOLVIBILE: That's part of the negotiation the Law 129 12/6/05 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 050865 Department is doing with the sign company, is we -- that was part of the negotiations that were going on as to the cost of the removal being on the burden of the sign company. It was the way we were trying to make it go to let them in fact remove their own signs from the walls and treat it. That was the preference that I personally had.

Well, Commissioner, my gut feeling is when push comes to shove, when a truck is about to pull up from a private contractor to remove the sign, that responsible organizations will say, Hey, we don't want you to do that, we'll take care of it ourself. That's how I think it will eventually roll out. I just can't imagine -- maybe the small mom-and-pop that have two or three might say, Let the contractors deal with it, but I can't imagine a major corporation allowing a private contractor to come in and do what they're supposed 130 12/6/05 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 050865 to do. COMMISSIONER SOLVIBILE: I can say that what I heard -- and the legal part of it, I'm not going to say that I fully grasped the meeting I was at, but I did understand the lawyer representing the owner of this company, PNE Media, saying that the company in fact has no -- it's a bankrupt company basically.

No what?

Bankrupt. COMMISSIONER SOLVIBILE: It's a bankrupt company. That part I understood clearly, that there was no money to remove it if we made them remove them all today, and they were trying to -- well, I'm only repeating what was said in the meeting, Councilman.

Just pull it off the wall. COMMISSIONER SOLVIBILE: That basically then would be on the taxpayer, and that we're trying to negotiate with them to have them remove it. That's 131 12/6/05 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 050865 basically where we're at.

Commissioner, a lot of companies have been bankrupt that still can operate. COMMISSIONER SOLVIBILE: I understand.

Thank you. Councilman Juan Ramos.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Councilman Clarke invited me this past summer to walk the district that he represents, which I live in the district, and I was really surprised to a certain extent and not surprised because I see so many of them throughout our district that I live in, and I could probably say safely -- and I know that Ms. Cummings is here -- that since we took that walk through this summer, there's probably been more advertising that has gone up outside of some of these stores, on top, on the sides and so 132 12/6/05 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 050865 forth. Councilman Clarke announced about a half an hour ago that he was going to do everything, and I'm quite sure this whole panel is going to be supporting him and the Council, that to do something within 30 days. What can you do to make this happen within 30 days? You're negotiating. You saw Councilman Kenney do what I was thinking in my mind, just take those signs off and get rid of them and let -- COMMISSIONER SOLVIBILE: Please don't do it that way.

So what can you do to get us to that 30 days removal of these signs? COMMISSIONER SOLVIBILE: Well, I will personally -- Council, in the budget season, passed an ordinance -- I'm not sure of the ordinance. Otis could probably share with you the number -- that created a sign unit in the Department of Licensing and Inspections, 133 12/6/05 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 050865 and we're going to -- we're in the midst of staffing it with eight individuals. I believe there's three individuals in the unit now that have been laying -- Councilman Rizzo alluded to that, that we're creating a -- we've created a database for eight sheets. We know where all the eight sheets are to differentiate. We're not sure that we know where all of the billboards are in the City. Part of when I testified in Council for the sign, there was a study that PennDOT was doing with an engineering firm that would measure where the signs are, the address, the location of the signs, and they worked with our zoning people in the Concourse to determine which signs were legal and which signs were not legal. Also, they measured -- these are billboard signs now. They measured the size of the billboard, because that has a say in what -- Zoning may have 134 12/6/05 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 050865 approved a billboard, say, eight by ten, and what's up there now is a 20-by-30 size sign face. So we're waiting for the results of that survey to come in to us. We have not received it yet. The other day I have asked for a letter to be prepared to the person in charge of PennDOT asking when we would receive the results of the survey. As yet, we have not. As far as eight sheets goes, I will bring back the suggestion to talk to the Law Department as to notifying the individual owners of the buildings the eight sheets are on and ordering them to, in addition to PNE Media removing the signs, also ordering them as individuals to remove the sign. The support we would give is that sign unit would then concentrate on getting the exact address of the -- making sure we have the right address that the eight sheet is on and then 135 12/6/05 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 050865 issuing the violation notice to the individual.

Councilman Kenney.

I'm sorry, Madam Chair. I just want to make one suggestion on trying to speed this up, because as a result of the hearing today, our first panel of witnesses was the Health Commissioner, representatives from DHS, who I consider to be expert testimony in their field. They clearly said that the existence of these signs in these neighborhoods is a direct threat to the health and safety of the children who live in that neighborhood. It was clear. And I think that the Health Commissioner was very clear in her testimony that study after study has shown that this information in front of kids' faces is detrimental to their health and safety as it relates to their potential drug and alcohol abuse, to other types of problems, unprotected sex, you name the 136 12/6/05 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 050865 list -- and it's in her testimony. The entire list of things she said were the detriment to the health and safety of the kids who view this in the neighborhoods. COMMISSIONER SOLVIBILE: I heard the testimony, Councilman.

Doesn't that maybe trump, from a legal standpoint, the ongoing negotiations with the bankrupt company that doesn't have the resources to take down the stuff anyway and we're talking about negotiating with them a time frame that so far is now undefined? Couldn't we get a Court order through the Law Department to have the Judge say, yes, this is a detriment to health and safety, take them down now, as opposed to trying to massage this thing with a bankrupt company that's probably not even located in the City and talking about negotiating a time frame to take them down? I mean, if any other detriment to health and safety were in play here, 137 12/6/05 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 050865 we would respond immediately and not be kind of tiptoeing around this in a legal fashion. COMMISSIONER SOLVIBILE: I make this commitment, that if the Law Department gives us the approval to do what you want, we will do it. And I will in fact when I leave here call the Law Department, Andrew Ross who is Divisional Chief that I deal with, and ask if we can, in light of this testimony, move it up.

We have a very competent Health Commissioner who is educated and certified and licensed and whatever else needs to be done. I take her word and the word of Mr. Covone and everybody else who testified that this is a direct detriment to health and safety, and that trumps any type of situation where we'd have to negotiate in a court setting. So I'd proceed that way and have a judge tell you as you're taking 138 12/6/05 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 050865 them down to stop doing it because it's not a detriment to health and safety. COMMISSIONER SOLVIBILE: I don't disagree, Councilman. We need to go through the Law Department, as you're aware.

Just a quick follow-up to that. Or couldn't we also just condemn them? COMMISSIONER SOLVIBILE: I'm sorry, Councilman?

Couldn't we actually just condemn the properties? We condemn full buildings. We also can condemn partial properties, can't we? COMMISSIONER SOLVIBILE: We could state the sign in light of the Health Department -- and I'd have to ask the Law Department because it's beyond L&I's normal violation, that if it's a health and safety -- health and welfare of the surrounding community, that catchall that's used in state law, 139 12/6/05 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 050865 because of the hazard risk to children's young impressionable minds.

One of the things we thought about doing ten years ago when we were working on the Italian Market project and not knowing whether we were going to have agreement from the business owners was the thought of just condemning the facades there, taking over the facades and essentially placing a lien on those facades and retaining public ownership of them. So can't we just similarly condemn these properties? COMMISSIONER SOLVIBILE: We could order a violation -- the violation that we sent to the PNE Media Company stated that if they did not remove them, the City may remove the signs and bill 20 them for all costs incurred. We could do the same with the individual property, yes.

Thank you. COMMISSIONER SOLVIBILE: Assuming, Councilman -- let me further 140 12/6/05 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 050865 answer. Assuming that the Law Department, in light of negotiations and the testimony today, would be in agreement with that, which I believe they would be, but I still can't speak for them.

Thank you.

Councilman Clarke.

Commissioner, we can do whatever it is we want to do essentially as it relates to signs. Two years ago -- because I'm a Ward Leader in my other life also -- on Election Day, right, I'm stopping by one of my polling places on 33rd Street, and that morning a political candidate put political signs along the corridor on 33rd Street in the park, which is in violation of the law. All right? You can't have posters or signage in the park. COMMISSIONER SOLVIBILE: I believe as of last year it is, yes, 141 12/6/05 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 050865 Councilman.

No. This is before. COMMISSIONER SOLVIBILE: I'm not sure about that. I think there was an ordinance passed last year.

Well, that might make my point even more so. And a certain supporter of the other candidate made a phone call, and before lunchtime, all the signs were gone. Right? It was no process, no 14 lawyers, no agreement. That was in violation of that law, no signage in Fairmount Park, and those signs were gone in three hours, because that's what we wanted to do. So I'm saying -- and I'm equally as frustrated as Councilman Kenney. I hear he is. And I understand that you have certain things that you have to do as a Commissioner to the letter of the law, but if you take the approach, Look, we're doing this and let 142 12/6/05 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 050865 somebody take us to court, then shouldn't we take that approach, as opposed to essentially getting all our I's dotted and all our T's crossed and we'll never get there? And, you know, understanding that if we reach a settlement, it could potentially be challenged by some advertiser. I mean, why don't we take the approach of, Let's just go do what we have to do, and take us to court. COMMISSIONER SOLVIBILE: I listened to the Health Commissioner's testimony this morning, and as you know in dealing with just about everybody at the panel, buildings that are collapsing is an imminent peril to the health, safety and welfare and --

And you curbside them. COMMISSIONER SOLVIBILE: And we curbside them.

The same day. COMMISSIONER SOLVIBILE: I 143 12/6/05 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 050865 found now that being here and thinking about if a Health Commissioner who is a highly, highly qualified person says that it's impressionable, and all the people in that original panel say that, then I bring that to the Law Department, and I think that if we can, then, as I told you in the past and people in the panel, unleash the dogs of war. We'll get a contractor to remove the signs, properly remove the signs, not pull them off, because that will create another problem. There's certain preparation to the wall after that's required that you can't just remove them.

Point of information, Mr. Chairman.

Councilman Rizzo.

Commissioner, time flies. You talked about -- and, again, the frustration, and I'm starting to even get a little frustrated with the process. You 144 12/6/05 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 050865 referred to the sign unit and you referred to the fact that it was during a conversation during the last budget process. That's going to be a year ago this February, this late January, February. I would hope that that would have been a done deal by now. It is almost a year. I just want to remind you of that. COMMISSIONER SOLVIBILE: The sign unit exists and it was in operation actually when we were starting to testify. We're just waiting to -- in the budget process, we were allotted, I believe, eight people. Don't quote me. I mean, I could be off by one or two. And we brought three on board back then, and we're waiting for the testing period and civil service and the way that all comes together to allow us to hire them.

It's going to be a year. COMMISSIONER SOLVIBILE: Because we weren't authorized until July 145 12/6/05 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 050865 1, not February. COMMISSIONER RIZZO: Again, no 4 criticism to you -- COMMISSIONER SOLVIBILE: After the budget passes.

-- my point is that a long time has gone by. And I think we're getting somewhere here today, but whatever you need to do, would you please do it, because I think you need to get it done. COMMISSIONER SOLVIBILE: I can say this: If the Managing Director at the time, Mr. Goldsmith, and the present, Mr. Ramos, are -- I've met with them several times about the sign unit, and they're fully in support and want us to be as aggressive. The one lady that said the inspector went out and said, You can't have this billboard, that was in fact from the sign unit. And we are now concentrating in various areas to remove the signs that are easy, easier done. The individual stapled to 146 12/6/05 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 050865 trees, the outside of the business "early bird special" signs, things like that, we're going and explaining to people, Hey, you can't have that because it's not legal and telling them voluntarily remove it, and we've been having success with that. So we will write the violations. We will be as aggressive as needed to remove the graffiti of signs in Philadelphia that are the illegal signs in Philadelphia, eight sheets and billboards and stapled to trees. As an example, somebody mentioned political signs. Prior to every election, all the candidates that as soon as they file with the City Commissioners that they're a candidate for office, a letter is prepared by Commissioner Verdi's staff to send to each individual candidate telling them, You can't have the signs on trees and things like that, and then we write violations, and if they don't, we remove them. 147 12/6/05 - PUBLIC SAFETY - BILL 050865 So we're starting to be aggressive, and it's just a matter of catching up.

Just to end my comment, nobody knows better than I do how busy your organization is, and I know we keep piling it on top, but since these positions are authorized as, would you say, July, that -- COMMISSIONER SOLVIBILE: As of July, and we're waiting for personnel to get us the people that we can interview.

Well, let us know if we can help at all, please. COMMISSIONER SOLVIBILE: We're almost there.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.