civus
Minutes

Stated Meeting, October 20, 2005

Philadelphia City CouncilOct 20, 2005

People mentioned

Names our system found in this transcript. Automatically extracted, so it can include anyone named in the record, not only officials or parties.

Organizations mentioned

Council President Verna

I think we just move for the adoption. Councilwoman Blackwell, I believe -

Councilwoman Blackwell

I believe that we're recommending that the Hearing Examiner's recommendation be rejected.

Council President Verna

No.

Councilwoman Blackwell

I did move for the adoption of the resolution.

Councilwoman Tasco

To reject.

Council President Verna

I believe at this time you simply move for the adoption of the resolution.

Councilwoman Blackwell

I did. I'll say it again. I move for the adoption of the resolution. (Duly seconded.) 39 APPLICATIONS

Council President Verna

Those in favor will please say aye. (Aye.)

Council President Verna

Those opposed?

Councilwoman Tasco

There are two resolutions. It should be I move to approve the resolution to reject.

Council President Verna

No. There are two resolutions that each of us have in our possession. If it is not adopted, then there is a second resolution which could be offered to reject. I am being told by Mr. Auerbach that this is one of four resolutions where there is an exception, because I think they're all Councilman Clarke's. Councilman Clarke, why don't you address your issue. I'm sorry. You can't do that.

Councilwoman Tasco

Madam President, all I want to know is that the vote we're taking is that we are voting 39 APPLICATIONS to accept the recommendation of the Hearing Examiner's --

Council President Verna

Findings.

Councilwoman Tasco

-findings to reject this application.

Council President Verna

Right.

Councilwoman Tasco

That's all I want to say.

Council President Verna

Right. I think when we were in Council -

Councilman Goode

Point of order.

Council President Verna

-- I believe that every Councilmember -

Councilwoman Krajewski

Point of order.

Council President Verna

Can I just finish my conversation here, please? Somebody asked a question. I believe that when we were in caucus, Mr. Auerbach distributed a copy 39 APPLICATIONS of each and every application, either for or in opposition to. Councilman Goode, did you want to add something?

Councilman Goode

Yes. The point of order is simply that the resolution does not read as Councilwoman Tasco said. The resolution I have says rejecting the recommendation of the Hearing Examiner and approving, with conditions, the following application.

Council President Verna

That's right.

Councilman Goode

So this would be approving the application with conditions.

Council President Verna

Exactly.

Councilman Nutter

Madam President?

Councilman Goode

So if we're voting against the application, we will be voting against the resolution.

Council President Verna

39 APPLICATIONS Right. You're absolutely right.

Councilman Nutter

Let me ask a question. Madam President?

Council President Verna

Mr. Auerbach, I think that we tried to explain all of this in the Caucus Room, and I knew that there would be a great deal of confusion. So if you don't mind, would you please.

Councilwoman Blackwell

Like I told you it would be.

Council President Verna

Yes. We all knew that. So, Mr. Auerbach, would you please explain again what it is that we're doing.

Mr. Auerbach

Unfortunately, the first application on the list is one of the four exceptions. It never fails. Generally, there will be two resolutions, one to accept the recommendation, one to reject. We'll first consider the resolution to accept the recommendation. If that's not adopted, we will then 39 APPLICATIONS consider the resolution to reject the recommendation. This is one of four exceptions. In this case, the protestant, who happens to be Councilman Clarke, continued to negotiate with the applicant after the hearing was concluded and reached an agreement with the applicant to approve it with conditions, and Councilman Clarke wrote to the Council President to say that there had been continuing negotiations and an agreement had been reached, and he requested the Council President to offer a resolution approving, with conditions, and -

Councilman Goode

Point of order.

Mr. Auerbach

-- that's the resolution before us.

Councilman Goode

Point of order.

Council President Verna

Yes. The Chair recognizes Councilman Goode.

Councilman Goode

We will get 39 APPLICATIONS caught up in the description of the process, which I don't even think is necessary. I think what is necessary is, we deal with this as we deal with veto overrides where on each vote we take, whether it's only four votes or not, there's a clarification of the vote. I think in the end, people want to know whether they're voting for or against an application. And so on the first one, for example, we need to clarify that a vote against the resolution is a vote against the application.

Councilman Nutter

That was going to be my -

Mr. Auerbach

The problem is to disapprove an application would need a second resolution.

Councilman Goode

Like I said, if you choose to go through the process on each resolution, it's going to be confusing. All we need to do is vote for or against the applications. We can 39 APPLICATIONS explain what that vote is; in other words, like we do on veto overrides. In other words, a vote for the resolution is a vote for the application. A vote against the resolution is a vote against the application in this case.

Councilwoman Blackwell

Madam President, point of order.

Council President Verna

Yes. The Chair recognizes Councilwoman Blackwell.

Councilwoman Blackwell

I believe in this instance where I move for the adoption -

Council President Verna

I'm sorry. There's too much noise.

Councilwoman Blackwell

I believe in this instance where we move for the adoption of the resolution, that we were in order. To further try to clarify what my colleague, Councilman Goode, is saying, I agree that we don't want to go through with provisions and all of that. 39 APPLICATIONS All we want to do is vote for the adoption of the resolution or vote for the rejection of the resolution, and the adoption of the resolution means that we accept the Hearing Examiner's recommendation and the rejection of the resolution would mean we vote against the Hearing Examiner's recommendation, because the Hearing Examiner could have voted aye or nay. So everything that we vote for is based on the Hearing Examiner's recommendation. I'm just clarifying that.

Mr. Auerbach

Can I just explain one thing? The problem is that if the resolution is to accept the Hearing Examiner's report to approve and the Council votes not to adopt that resolution, that doesn't disapprove the application. All that means is, Council has not adopted a resolution. There's no action of Council. You need an affirmative vote to adopt a resolution 39 APPLICATIONS that disapproves the application, unless there's that vote -

Councilwoman Blackwell

I do not know what you're saying now.

Councilman Nutter

If the resolution as presented to us was approved, what would be the impact on this application?

Mr. Auerbach

The application would be approved with conditions.

Councilman Nutter

And if the resolution fails, what would be the impact on that application?

Mr. Auerbach

If Council takes no further action, the practical effect will be to approve the application because Council has failed to -

Councilman Nutter

That's not my question. This resolution is before us. I'm asking, suppose this resolution is voted on and fails. What's the impact on this particular application?

Mr. Auerbach

If Council does nothing else, there's no impact. Council 39 APPLICATIONS has failed to adopt a resolution. The Council has taken no action.

Councilman Nutter

And then the 45-day rule kicks in?

Mr. Auerbach

The 45 days will run. It will be deemed approved.

Councilwoman Blackwell

Point of information, if I may, to follow up on what my colleague, Councilman Nutter, is saying. I have one case here that the Hearing Examiner approved them that I want Council to reject. So you're saying if I vote for a rejection of the resolution, you're saying nothing happens?

Mr. Auerbach

No. In that case, Councilwoman, you will be introducing a resolution that will say a resolution rejecting the recommendation of the Hearing Examiner and disapproving the application, and if that resolution passes, the application will be disapproved.

Councilwoman Blackwell

So 39 APPLICATIONS then we can't just say the adoption of the resolution. I don't have to say I move for the adoption of the resolution with conditions, but I have to say I move for the rejection of the resolution and denial of the application?

Mr. Auerbach

No. You will be introducing a resolution that disapproves the application. You would then move for adoption of that resolution.

Councilwoman Blackwell

It doesn't have to say Hearing Examiner in it, because otherwise -

Council President Verna

I think in your possession what was given out today in the Caucus Room was to approve what the Hearing Examiners have found.

Councilwoman Blackwell

Absolutely.

Council President Verna

If you're objecting, you also have in your possession for that same bill number one opposing or rejecting the findings of the 39 APPLICATIONS Hearing Officer which we can then vote on.

Councilwoman Blackwell

I still don't understand, Madam President. If I am to put in a motion for adoption of the resolution or rejection of the resolution and -- I'm voting on mine, as all of you know, but for my colleagues, how are people -- let's use the first one for example. 3403 Germantown Avenue. How am I supposed to know how to vote?

Councilman Nutter

Madam President?

Councilwoman Blackwell

I don't know every stop-and-go in the entire City of Philadelphia.

Councilman Nutter

Madam President?

Council President Verna

Councilman Nutter.

Councilman Nutter

If I can just add to the record. As a part of this report, the last page may give some indication as to what the situation is. 39 APPLICATIONS Attached to this document it says, "Approval Conditions: The office of Councilman Darrell Clarke, protestant, and the owner/operator of the above location, applicant, have agreed to the following as conditions for the approval of the application," and there are eight conditions. This is Exhibit-B. In order to support what has apparently been agreed to, it appears that we would have to vote yes to this resolution in order to allow the application to go through being approved with the conditions that are on Exhibit-B. Is that correct?

Council President Verna

Exactly.

Councilwoman Blackwell

That's correct for No. 1, yes.

Councilman Nutter

Just for the one. We'll see what happens to the other 38. Let's get one under our belt.

Councilman Clarke

Madam President? 39 APPLICATIONS

Councilwoman Blackwell

You see, Madam President, if I may, part of the confusion is -- I'll use myself for an example. I have an application here, Laov's -- I'll use me for an example, because I don't talk about anybody else -- at 52nd and Girard.

Council President Verna

Excuse me, Councilwoman. There's entirely too much noise.

Councilwoman Blackwell

Just for the sake of clarification, I'll use myself for an example. I have an application, 889, for Laov's Inc. at 5217 West Girard, is the worst thing I've seen in the City. Having said that, the Hearing Examiner approved it, did not look up records that there's no zoning and all that stuff. So in my case, I'm asking for the rejection of the resolution, which I assume is rejection of the Hearing Examiner's recommendation, because the 39 APPLICATIONS Hearing Examiner voted to approve it.

Council President Verna

Right.

Councilwoman Blackwell

Is that correct?

Council President Verna

Yes.

Councilwoman Blackwell

So for me, since I'm voting, I know how I feel, so I don't need then to introduce two resolutions for or against, correct?

Council President Verna

Absolutely not. Not one in favor and one disapproving. You just introduce the one.

Councilwoman Blackwell

But I don't know what happens in other instances, I'm saying, for my colleagues, because since they can't say how they feel, I have absolutely no idea how they -- I have to assume then they agree with the Hearing Examiner, I guess.

Council President Verna

And I think that on a daily basis, I am told there were transcripts circulated and I 39 APPLICATIONS think the Councilmanic offices certainly had an opportunity to have a staff member go through them to ascertain what the findings of the Examiner was, particularly those in your district. Councilman Kelly.

Councilman Kelly

I just want to know, is it critical that this matter be voted on today? It seems like there's a lot of confusion in this Council Chambers, and I just think -

Council President Verna

There is and there will be because, as I said to you in caucus, this is the first time we're doing this. I got this at 4:30 yesterday afternoon, as I'm sure everyone else did, and I am told that if we don't do it today, then we are jeopardizing what has been done because of the 45-day issue.

Councilman Kelly

Then we are -

Council President Verna

Am I correct, Mr. Auerbach? 39 APPLICATIONS

Council President Verna

So we must consider these today.

Councilman Kelly

Thank you, Madam President.

Council President Verna

Can we proceed? I believe on BPA2005-12, Councilwoman Blackwell, I believe you made a motion for the resolution to be adopted.

Councilwoman Blackwell

Correct.

Council President Verna

All in favor will please indicate by saying aye. (Aye.)

Council President Verna

Those opposed? (No response.)

Council President Verna

The ayes have it, the resolution is adopted, and the record will reflect that Councilman Clarke recused himself. 39 APPLICATIONS The next application number is BPA2005-21. The Chair recognizes Councilwoman Blackwell. Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't give the name. Myung Enterprise Inc., and the application is for the premises located at 1101 North 66th Street. The Chair recognizes Councilwoman Blackwell.

Councilwoman Blackwell

Madam President, assuming I'm not totally confused, do I offer this resolution?

Council President Verna

You offer a resolution.

Councilwoman Blackwell

I offer a resolution on your behalf.

Council President Verna

The Clerk will please read the title of the resolution.

Chief Clerk

A resolution accepting the recommendation of the Hearing Examiner and approving, with conditions, the following application for a permit to sell malt and brewed 39 APPLICATIONS beverages for consumption off premises: Myung Enterprise, 1101 North 66th Street, Philadelphia 19151.

Council President Verna

Thank you. The Chair recognizes Councilwoman Blackwell for a motion on the resolution.

Councilwoman Blackwell

Madam President, I move for rejection of the resolution. (Duly seconded.)

Council President Verna

I'm sorry. You move for -

Councilwoman Blackwell

Yes. I understand that I move for rejection of the resolution.

Councilman Nutter

Can I recuse myself?

Council President Verna

I understand you have to -- I'll tell you, before next Thursday, we're going to have to have a session where we're all informed as to how this process will be 39 APPLICATIONS working, because there's a great deal of confusion and, as I said, just having that brief explanation this morning in the Caucus Room apparently was not ample for everybody to understand what we were doing.

Councilman Nutter

Madam President?

Council President Verna

Councilman Nutter.

Councilman Nutter

Thank you, Madam President. Madam President, in accordance with the rules that were adopted by City Council, you know that I submitted to you and circulated to my colleagues a letter of recusal in this particular matter because of my participation in this matter. So I will not be voting.

Council President Verna

I understand.

Councilman Nutter

Thank you.

Councilman O'Neill

Madam President, clarification on this. I just 39 APPLICATIONS want to make sure, if I vote no on the resolution that was just presented, I will then be voting on another resolution on the same store, same applicant, and I will be voting yes -

Council President Verna

To approve.

Councilman O'Neill

The second one will be a rejection of the application. Fine.

Councilwoman Blackwell

So, Madam President, you are saying we have to vote two ways on every resolution instead of saying -

Council President Verna

First you are moving that the resolution be adopted. If that does not pass, if that has not been approved, you then introduce the second resolution.

Councilwoman Blackwell

This doesn't make sense to me, Madam President. It seems to me -

Councilman O'Neill

Madam President, it was said earlier, and I 39 APPLICATIONS think I got it. Councilwoman Blackwell, if Council agrees by a majority vote with the recommendation of the Hearing Examiner, there's only one resolution required. If we reject in the first resolution the Hearing Examiner's recommendation, then we need a second one where we affirmatively reject the application, not just deal with the Hearing Examiner's recommendation as we did in the first of the two.

Council President Verna

Exactly. Perfect explanation. So was the resolution read?

Chief Clerk

It was accepting.

Council President Verna

Again, Councilwoman Blackwell.

Councilwoman Blackwell

Madam President, I move for the adoption of the resolution.

Council President Verna

Is there a second? (Duly seconded.) 39 APPLICATIONS

Council President Verna

It has been moved and seconded that the resolution be adopted. All in favor will please indicate by saying aye. (Aye.)

Council President Verna

Those opposed?

Councilman O'Neill

No.

Council President Verna

How many no's are there?

Councilman Rizzo

No.

Councilwoman Krajewski

No.

Councilman Kelly

No.

Council President Verna

The record will reflect -

Councilman Mariano

I'm no.

Council President Verna

Are we going to have to have a roll call? Yes, Councilwoman.

Councilwoman Tasco

This is really very -- it's a disadvantage to the Councilperson to have to recuse himself. The other Councilmembers don't know what 39 APPLICATIONS the circumstances are in the community. They can't speak up and say why they want it rejected. I mean, there's something wrong with it. I mean, we need to look at this process. It doesn't work. I didn't recuse myself because I wanted to be able to speak and let people know how -

Council President Verna

I'm sorry, Councilwoman. I can't hear you.

Councilwoman Tasco

I didn't recuse myself because I wanted to be able to have the voice on the floor to let my colleagues know how I wanted them to vote on the application and let the organization up to the other elected officials in my district.

Council President Verna

All right. Again, I'm going to ask all in favor of the adoption of the resolution will say aye. (Aye.)

Council President Verna

Those 39 APPLICATIONS opposed?

Councilwoman Blackwell

No.

Councilman O'Neill

No.

Council President Verna

We need a roll call, because I cannot -very quickly, Pat. We're going to have a roll call vote, please.

Chief Clerk

Councilwoman Blackwell.

Councilwoman Blackwell

No.

Chief Clerk

Councilman Clarke.

Councilman Clarke

No.

Chief Clerk

Councilman DiCicco.

Councilman Dicicco

No.

Chief Clerk

Councilman Goode.

Councilman Goode

No.

Chief Clerk

Councilman Kelly.

Councilman Kelly

No.

Chief Clerk

Councilman Kenney. (Not in Chambers.) 39 APPLICATIONS

Chief Clerk

Councilwoman Krajewski.

Councilwoman Krajewski

No.

Chief Clerk

Councilman Mariano.

Councilman Mariano

No.

Chief Clerk

Councilwoman Miller.

Councilwoman Miller

No.

Chief Clerk

Councilman Nutter.

Council President Verna

He's recusing himself.

Chief Clerk

Councilman O'Neill.

Councilman O'Neill

No.

Chief Clerk

Councilman Ramos.

Councilman Ramos

No.

Chief Clerk

Councilwoman Reynolds Brown.

Councilwoman Brown

No.

Chief Clerk

Councilman Rizzo.

Councilman Rizzo

No.

Chief Clerk

Councilwoman 39 APPLICATIONS Tasco.

Councilwoman Tasco

No.

Chief Clerk

Council President Verna.

Council President Verna

No. The record will indicate that the vote is 14 to nothing. Councilman Kenney was not present to vote and Councilman Nutter recused himself. The next application number is -- I'm sorry. Excuse me. The Chair recognizes Councilwoman Blackwell.

Councilwoman Blackwell

Thank you, Madam President. I move for the rejection of the resolution. Okay, Madam President, if you want me to restate it another way, I can move for the -- I did say I move for the rejection of the resolution. Do you want me to restate it another way? All right, Madam President. They tell me I start all over again. Madam President, I offer one resolution on your behalf. 39 APPLICATIONS

Council President Verna

Thank you. The Chief Clerk will please read the resolution.

Chief Clerk

A resolution rejecting the recommendation of the Hearing Examiner and disapproving the following application for a permit to sell malt and brewed beverages for consumption off premises: Myung Enterprise, 1101 North 66th Street, Philadelphia 19151.

Council President Verna

So that everybody understands, we are now voting on the resolution rejecting the Hearing Examiner's recommendation. All in favor will indicate by saying aye. (Aye.)

Council President Verna

Those opposed? (No response.)

Council President Verna

The ayes have it. The motion carries. Councilwoman, did you make a 39 APPLICATIONS motion? Are we all getting confused?

Councilwoman Blackwell

I don't think I made a resolution to accept the resolution.

Council President Verna

So would you move -

Councilwoman Blackwell

I move for the adoption of the resolution.

Council President Verna

Is there a second? (Duly seconded.)

Council President Verna

All those in favor of the rejection of the Examiner's recommendation will vote aye.

Councilwoman Tasco

Which one is it?

Council President Verna

It's on the same application.

Councilwoman Tasco

We already said aye.

Council President Verna

All of those in favor will vote aye. (Aye.)

Council President Verna

Those 39 APPLICATIONS opposed? (No response.)

Council President Verna

The ayes have it and the motion carries. The next application is BPA2005-90.

Councilman O'Neill

Madam President, on the No. 90, EAP Inc., 2150 North 20th Street, have we voted on that yet?

Council President Verna

We're just going to vote on it. That's what I'm calling up now.

Councilman O'Neill

What was the voice vote a minute ago?

Council President Verna

The voice vote that we just had -- if you recall, on 21, we did not adopt the Examiner's recommendation. So what we did on the second vote was to move for the adoption of the resolution rejecting the Hearing Examiner's recommendation.

Councilman O'Neill

Okay. I thought we had already done that and then 39 APPLICATIONS there was another voice vote that I missed. Okay.

Councilman Kelly

I think we did it twice.

Councilman O'Neill

Oh, we did it twice? That's it. Thank you.

Council President Verna

Again, we're back to No. 90, EAP Inc. The address of the premises is 2333 North Front Street -- I'm sorry; 2150 North 20th Street. EAP Inc., 2150 North 20th Street. At this time, I would recognize Councilwoman Blackwell.

Councilwoman Blackwell

Thank you, Madam President. I offer one resolution on your behalf.

Council President Verna

Thank you. The Clerk will please read the title of the resolution.