COUNCIL OF THE CITY OF PHILADELPHIA2 COMMITTEE ON THE ENVIRONMENT - - -3 Room 400, City Hall Philadelphia, Pennsylvania4 Friday, May 1, 2009, 11:00 a.m. - - -5 Bill 090064 - Enacting a new Chapter 9-3100 of6 the Philadelphia Code, entitled "Food Service Waste Reduction Ordinance," to prohibit use of7 disposal food service ware that contains polystyrene foam and to require use of8 biodegradable/compostable or recyclable disposal food service ware by food vendors,9 City facility food providers, City departments, and City contractors and lessees, unless there10 is no affordable alternative. 11 Bill 090074 - Amending Chapter 9-600 of the Philadelphia Code, entitled "Service and Other12 Businesses," by adding a new Section 9-614, entitled "Mandatory Use of Recyclable and13 Compostable Checkout Bags." 14 Bill 090075 - Amending Chapter 9-600 of the Philadelphia Code, entitled "Service and Other15 Businesses," by adding a new Section 9-614, entitled "Advanced Recovery Fee (Green Fee) for16 Disposal Shopping Bags," to establish an advanced recovery fee (a green fee) for17 disposable shopping bags. 18 COUNCILMEMBERS PRESENT: James F. Kenney, Chair19 Blondell Reynolds Brown, Vice Chair Frank DiCicco20 Curtis Jones, Jr. Donna Reed Miller21 - - -22 V A R A L L O Incorporated23 Litigation Support Specialists 1835 Market Street, Suite 60024 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19103 215.561.2220 215.567.267025 2 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751
Good2 morning, ladies and gentlemen. Thanks3 again for waiting and your patience. We4 apologize for the delay.5 The Committee on the Environment6 now has a quorum with Councilmembers7 Jones, DiCicco, and Councilmember Miller,8 who are here to listen to testimony on9 three bills.10 The first is Bill No. 090064, an11 ordinance enacting a new Chapter 9-3100 of12 the Philadelphia Code, entitled "Food13 Service Waste Reduction Ordinance," to14 prohibit the use of disposal food service15 ware that contains polystyrene foam and to16 require the use of biodegradable/17 compostable or recyclable disposal food18 service ware by food vendors, City19 facility food providers, City departments,20 and City contractors and lessees, unless21 there is no affordable alternative, all22 under certain terms and conditions.23 Also, Bill No. 090074, an24 ordinance amending Chapter 9-600 of the25 3 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 Philadelphia Code, entitled "Service and2 Other Businesses," by adding a new Section3 9-614, entitled "Mandatory Use of4 Recyclable and Compostable Checkout Bags,"5 all under certain terms and conditions.6 And, finally, Bill No. 090075,7 an ordinance amending Chapter 9-600 of the8 Philadelphia Code, entitled "Service and9 Other Businesses," by adding a new Section10 9-614, entitled "Advanced Recovery Fee11 (Green Fee) for Disposal Shopping Bags,"12 to establish an advanced recovery fee (a13 green fee) for disposable shopping bags,14 all under certain terms and conditions.15 I'd like to first recognize16 Councilmember DiCicco for opening remarks.17 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Thank you,18 Mr. Chairman, and thank you, everyone, for19 coming today. As Councilman Kenney said,20 we do apologize for the delay in getting21 this hearing started.22 I'd just like to quickly thank23 you, Mr. Chairman, for having this meeting24 today, this hearing today. And also to25 4 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 let you know that while my staff and I2 have been directed by casinos, waterfront3 development, and property taxes,4 Sarah Sachdev -- hopefully, I'm5 pronouncing her name correctly -- has6 helped pull together the witnesses and7 organized this hearing. I want to8 recognize her for her help and hard work9 and to say thank you.10 I also want to thank Penn11 Future, the Philadelphia Clean Air12 Council, and the Recycling Alliance for13 helping us get the word out about today's14 hearing, organizing the photo contest, and15 helping coordinate the reusable bag drive.16 Coincidentally, if you haven't17 dropped off your bags, a collection point18 is across the hall.19 And, finally, I want to thank20 the School District that has agreed to21 help redistribute these bags to students22 in the next academic year.23 For the moment, that's all I24 have to say, but I'd like to say again one25 5 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 more time, thank you all and thank you for2 your patience.3
Just a word4 on Bill No. 090064. There will be5 testimony that will be taken today on all6 three bills. 18 I don't believe that the passage19 of this bill, which won't happen today or20 will get out of committee today, will cost21 anyone their jobs. 25 6 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 Now is not the time to be2 unemployed -- no time is the time to be3 employed, but in this economy, it's even4 worse. 25 7 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 We are all Pennsylvanians. I2 mean, I -- Philadelphia sometimes, you3 know, has a difficult time articulating4 our needs and views to Harrisburg, but I5 want the people in Lancaster to understand6 and the people in Potter County to7 understand that we are not insensitive to8 their concerns and their worries about9 raising their families and continuing to10 work. 12 I will say, however, that two13 years ago, we started this process. And14 frankly, I -- and my colleague Councilman15 DiCicco can comment in whatever way he16 likes. 25 8 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 None of that happened, none of2 it happened, as far as I can see or as far3 as I know, and I've resulted with4 Councilman DiCicco. 14 But we -- I honestly believe15 that this, in the end, will not cost16 anyone their jobs. 22 So I'm willing to work with the23 elected officials out there in parts of24 the State and those employees to make it25 9 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 clear to them that no one from2 Philadelphia or from Philadelphia City3 Council wants to hurt them. 9
Yeah.10 Just -- let me say, first of all, I want11 to thank the members of this committee, in12 particular Councilman Kenney and13 Councilman DiCicco, for having the vision,14 foresight, and stamina to deal with the15 issue of the environment and, in16 particular, plastic bags.17 It is one of those issues that18 transcends neighborhoods, transcends19 economics, transcends racial/social20 barriers, because these bags know no21 barriers. They go to every part of the22 City of Philadelphia and have an impact23 one way or another on those neighborhoods24 that they are in.25 10 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 And I'm thankful to the2 Committee on the Environment for taking up3 this tough issue, and I look forward to4 the testimony today.5
Thank you6 very much.7 If there are no other comments,8 we'd like to get ready and get started9 with the testimony. And the first panel10 is: Suzanne Biemiller, the Mayor's Office11 of Sustainability.12 (Witnesses come forward.)13
Please14 identify yourself for the record and15 proceed.16
My name is17 Suzanne Biemiller, and I work with the18 Mayor's Office of Sustainability.19
Good24 morning.25 11 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751
-- and members2 of City Council. 8 With me here is Duane Bumb,9 Senior Deputy Director of Commerce; and10 Dr. 20 As you know, on Wednesday, the21 Mayor Administration unveiled a22 comprehensive sustainability strategy23 entitled Green Works Philadelphia. 2525 13 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 tons per household. Yet Philadelphians2 only recycled 48,000 tons of trash last3 year. 11 The City spends $65 per ton of12 trash to private waste haulers to put this13 trash in landfills; and last year, these14 tipping fees alone cost the City15 $47 million. 20 We Philadelphians must not only21 recycle more trash but also reduce what we22 produce, including plastic bags and23 Styrofoam containers. The bills presented24 today will advance the City's waste25 14 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 reduction goals in the following ways:2 Bill No. 6 Bill No. 9 And, finally, Bill No. 14 On Wednesday, at the launch of15 Green Works Philadelphia, the Mayor16 expressed his support for measures to rid17 the City of plastic bags. He understands18 what these bags cost the City government19 as it attempts to remove them from our20 streets and waterways and send them to21 landfills. 2 Many grocery stores and3 pharmacies are already taking steps to4 move their customers away from plastic5 bags. Most restaurants and national6 fast-food chains no longer use Styrofoam7 cups or to-go containers, and more and8 more customers in Philadelphia are9 shopping with reusable bags. 14 But the Administration is also15 sensitive to those businesses that believe16 these bills could represent an increase to17 their overhead costs, particularly smaller18 establishments already made vulnerable by19 the current economic climate. Therefore,20 we would like to continue to work with the21 sponsors and with the business community22 so as to ensure that those concerns and23 those impacted by this legislation are24 adequately addressed. 3 The aim of these proposed bills4 is a good one and a right one, and they5 help position Philadelphia as a leader in6 the sustainable movement. 9 Thank you for your consideration10 of this testimony. 13
Thank you14 for your testimony.15 Is there any other testimony16 from the other witnesses?17
Thank you.19 Are there any questions of the20 witnesses?21 (No questions.)22
Thank you.25 17 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751
The second2 panel is Aedhan Loomis and Brett Mapp.3 (Witnesses come forward.)4
I just want5 to set a ground rule that I like to6 follow, and it goes for everyone, whatever7 side of the issue you may be on.8 All of your written testimony9 will be fully included in the record. So10 you don't need to read exactly word for11 word your testimony 'cause it will be put12 into the record that way.13 You can speak freely, you can14 do -- you can read a little bit if you15 want, you can speak freely about your16 testimony. People who come subsequent to17 that, again, your testimony will be18 included fully in the record, but try to19 avoid areas that have already been20 covered; it makes the hearing go a lot21 better, and it's a lot more interesting.22 So with that said, please23 identify yourself for the record.24
Good morning. My25 18 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 name is Aedhan Loomis. I'm --2
Plastic bags are9 increasingly littering our planet, our10 country, our state, and our city. These11 thin pieces of plastic pose a threat to12 our environment. While recycling these13 bags is one way to solve this problem, it14 is neither economical, costing about15 $4,000 to process and recycle one ton of16 plastic bags that can then be sold for a17 mere $35; nor is recycling efficient.18 The clear alternative to this19 global issue is to ban the use of these20 plastic bags and encourage the population21 to use reusable and more sustainable cloth22 bags to transport goods from a store to23 home. If one person were to do this, they24 could save an average of six bags a week;25 19 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 that's 24 bags a month, 288 bags a year,2 and 22,176 bags in an average lifetime.3 Now, that is just one person.4 If one out of every five5 Philadelphians were to switch to reusable6 cloth bags, as a city, we could save7 4.5 billion plastic bags. And that's just8 1 out of 5 residents. If Philadelphia9 were to ban plastic bags, forcing the use10 of plastic bag alternative, we as a city11 could save five times that number, or12 22 billion plastic bags.13 To take this one step further,14 if 100,000 plastic bags makes a ton, then15 we would eliminate 220,000 tons of plastic16 bags from polluting our environment.17 It would be great if the City of18 Philadelphia could join with many other19 global leaders such as China, Bangladesh,20 Ireland, Rwanda, the City of San21 Francisco, and a growing list of others to22 eliminate plastic bags from our city.23 I question the statement in the24 bill "mandatory use of recyclable and25 20 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 compostable bags" since all current2 checkout bags are recyclable.3 I encourage City Council to pass4 this bill and ban plastic bags. In the5 interim, please encourage all residents to6 return the plastic bags to the grocery7 stores that accept and recycle them.8
My name is Brett16 Mapp. I am the marketing specialist,17 community liaison for Whole Foods Market18 at 929 South Street.19 I'm here to talk about the20 second title of my job, community liaison.21 I not only work in the community but I22 also live in the community. I've been an23 homeowner in Bella Vista for over ten24 years and I have served for two years of25 21 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 the Bella Vista United Civic Association2 as president. I currently sit on the3 board of eight nonprofits, mostly arts-4 and culture-related. I am a living,5 breathing example of Whole Foods Market's6 fifth core value: carrying about our7 communities and our environment. This8 core value is the main focus of my job and9 the job of all my counterparts in over 27010 stores in North America.11 I'm not here to support12 Councilman DiCicco or Councilman Kenney's13 bill; I will leave that decision to you,14 the wise members of Council. I am here to15 tell you that this bill is possible and16 that we at Whole Foods Market have been17 following the rules of the bill for over a18 year, even though it is not the law.19 We got rid of our plastic bags20 last year, on Earth Day. We truly believe21 actions speak louder than words. We offer22 a nickel refund to each customer that23 brings their own bag, and, starting today,24 we are offering Nickels for Nonprofits.25 22 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 Nickels for Nonprofits is giving customers2 the opportunity to give back to their3 community. Every time a customer shops4 with a reusable bag, Whole Foods Market5 offers a nickel rebate that the customer6 has the option to either keep or donate to7 one of two chosen local nonprofits.8 Our reusable bags have become9 collectible items, and one bag that sold10 in our New York City stores last year was11 the must-have fashion accessory of last12 spring. The "I'm Not a Plastic Bag" was13 going for over $250 on Wednesday on eBay.14 I also have four pages from eBay from15 Wednesday of our bags that are on eBay16 right now.17 Reusable bags are green in18 environmental and financial ways. I do19 not know of a store today, from CVS to20 Sleepy Mattress, that does not offer a21 reusable bag. And if the chairman will22 allow me, I would like to show some23 examples of some reusable bags.24
Please.25 23 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751
This is a bag I'm2 very proud of. It's from ShopRite, a3 competitor, but it also helps the Mural4 Arts Committee.5 Trader Joe's, again, a6 competitor, doing a fabulous bag.7 This is a bag that we sell,8 designed by the artist Cheryl Crowe.9 Also, a bag from Headlong Dance10 Company, a local nonprofit. That goes11 right in my pocket and advertises a12 nonprofit.13 We have also gotten rid of our14 Styrofoam containers in our deli section.15 We offer (indiscernible) containers, which16 I brought some examples of today. We also17 carry recyclable paper board containers.18 We are not perfect. We still19 have plastic bags in our product and bulk20 departments. We are still trying to make21 sure that each container in our store can22 be recycled or composted. We do offer23 compost cans in our cafe so our customers24 can compost as soon as they finish their25 24 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 meal.2 The cost of the containers is a3 little more than Styrofoam, but as more4 and more companies switch, the cost will5 go down.6 We do these things because we7 truly believe in being good community8 partners, and one of the easiest ways to9 be a good partner is to keep the community10 as clean as possible.11 In another life, I was on the12 Board of Directors of the South Street13 Headhouse Square District; I was on the14 Community Advisory Committee. And every15 month, the biggest complaint was trash16 from the businesses on South Street,17 especially McDonald's. As a member of the18 committee and one who lives right off the19 Italian Market on South Street, I truly20 appreciate any business that tries to keep21 the neighborhood clean.22 I thank the committee for their23 time. And, again, I want you to know that24 these bills are possible, and you could25 25 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 still make a profit without plastic bags2 or Styrofoam containers.3
Thank you4 very much your testimony.5 Councilman DiCicco?6 (Applause.)7 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Thank you,8 Mr. Chairman.9 And thank you, gentlemen, for10 being here.11 Good morning. Good morning12 Mr. Mapp. Since the changeover from13 eliminating the plastic bags to reusable14 bags, has your business seen any15 measurable drop-off in sales or any16 complaints from customers?17
There's been no18 drop-off in sales besides the economic,19 you know, recession that we're in. And,20 actually, the South Street store is one of21 the top ten stores in the country as far22 as comp sales, which are comparable sales23 to last year. And I think that has to do24 more with our location than anything else.25 26 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 But there is no effect because2 of the plastic bags.3 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Customers,4 do they complain that they're not5 supplying the plastic bags any longer? Do6 you get any of those complaints?7
The biggest complaint8 from our customers is that they're waiting9 for their new bags. We have a lot of10 Cheryl Crowe bags they're waiting for.11 We also do kind of our quarterly12 bags. This is or banana bag, which is our13 newest one.14 What our customers want are our15 new-style bags.16 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Just for17 the record, your company is more of a18 higher-end grocery-store business as19 compared to some of the others? You20 showed Trader Joe's, a bag from Trader21 Joe's and ShopRite. I mean, there is a22 difference in the --23
I would admit that in24 our perishable department, some of our25 27 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 items, particularly in the meat and2 seafood are more expensive than some of3 our competitors.4 But, for example, a gallon of5 orange juice or a gallon of milk is the6 same price as SuperFresh, which is7 literally right across the street. So in8 some basic grocery items, we are9 comparable.10 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Okay. And11 I just wanted that for the record because12 a lot of folks use Whole Foods as an13 example and say, Well, they get much more14 for their product. They can afford to do15 these things. The demographics of folks16 who shop there is maybe a more educated17 demographic group than some of the others18 in the local neighborhoods.19 But you haven't -- you don't20 think that that -- well, I guess what I'm21 getting at is the fact that you're showing22 some bags for grocery stores that are in23 lower-economic communities as opposed to24 Center City and South Street.25 28 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751
Correct, but I just2 think, as I mentioned earlier in my3 testimony, you know, CVS or Sleepy4 mattresses -- you know, reusable bags are5 not only, you know, great for the6 environment; they are now the greatest7 marketing tool you have.8 For example, you know, this9 Sunday, is the opening of the farmers10 market at Headhouse Square. If you go to11 the farmers market or even the Reading12 Terminal Market, you will see customers13 with reusable bags from their favorite14 store. Customers come into our store who15 have Trader Joe's bags or SuperFresh bags;16 it's just their favorite bag that they17 happen to carry.18 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Thank you.19
Thank you20 very much and thank you for your21 testimony.22 It gives me the opportunity to23 introduce a couple of student groups.24 And, Aedhan, you reminded me that young25 29 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 people getting involved in this issue is2 probably the most important thing, 'cause3 changing behavior is going to have to be4 changed over a period of time. And the5 younger we change it, the easier it will6 be in the future.7 So I just wanted to take this8 opportunity to introduce people from the9 Belmont Charter School, with their10 teacher, Julie Mattaloni Trummel over11 here.12 (Applause.)13
And they're14 from the 3rd District, in West Philly.15 And we also have with us the16 Cook Wissahickon School.17 (Applause.)18 (Cheers.)19
Their20 teacher is Diane Ofee Powers. And they're21 from the great, great 4th Councilmatic22 District. Thank you very much.23
I wanted24 to say something.25 30 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751
And I just4 want to thank the young man that came in5 from Germantown Friends School. And did6 you -- is anybody's with you, or are you7 here by yourself?8
Oh, okay.10 And I know that Friends School has always11 been one that makes sure their students12 get involved with all kinds of issues. So13 it didn't surprise me that you were here14 this morning in support of recycling.15
The next23 panel is: Christine Knapp, Katie Edwards,24 Anne Misak, and Dennis Winters.25 31 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 (Witnesses come forward.)2
Good3 morning. Please identify yourself for the4 record and proceed. We'll take all of5 your testimony first, and then we'll do6 questions.7
My name is Christine8 Knapp. I'm the Director of Outreach for9 Citizens for Pennsylvania's Future,10 otherwise known as Penn Future, and the11 coordinator for the local Great City12 Initiative.13 I'm here this morning to urge14 City Council to support the introduced15 bills on plastic bags and Styrofoam waste,16 which, if passed, would make a vast17 improvement to Philadelphia's18 sustainability by reducing our consumption19 of non-renewable and environmentally20 unsound materials and would help fight the21 City's litter problem.22 Both plastic bags and23 polystyrene foam are relics of the 20th24 century. We know better now the harmful25 32 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 effects they can have on our environment,2 our neighborhoods, and our health. We3 also have better, cleaner alternatives4 that should be embraced.5 I have in my testimony a bunch6 of reasons why these products are harmful.7 I won't go into detail on them since8 they're in my written testimony, but I'll9 just give the overview that these products10 use up our natural resources, they consume11 energy to manufacture and transport, they12 choke marine life and wild life, they13 contribute to the cost of landfilling, as14 Suzanne from the Mayor's Office of15 Sustainability overviewed, they create16 litter, and I do want to just touch on17 that.18 I also am the vice president of19 the Passyunk Square Civic Association in20 South Philadelphia and the chair of our21 Trash and Recycling Committee. We've done22 polling of our neighborhood and it is the23 number-one concern among neighbors, is24 litter on the streets. We're actually, at25 33 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 this time, contemplating a contract for2 over $16,000 to pay someone to clean our3 streets because it is such a concern of4 neighborhoods. And among all of that5 litter, plastic bags and Styrofoam are a6 continual problem.7 They also block drains. My8 neighborhood also suffers from sewage9 backups and flooding, and these plastic10 bags and Styrofoam containers often clog11 our sewer drains. That prevents storm12 water from running where it's supposed to13 and, instead, running into basements.14 There are many alternatives to15 plastic bags. My first and favorite16 alternative is no bag whatsoever. I've17 multiple times gotten a can of soda or a18 large laundry detergent bottle that19 already has a handle and have been offered20 a plastic bag. I actually purchased a bag21 the other day and got it put in a bag.22 (Laughter.)23
2 You can see a pile of them over in the3 corner. 6 Green bags, biodegradable7 plastic bags, are also an alternative, and8 then there are paper bags which are more9 easily recyclable but not really a great10 alternative, since they do take more fuel11 to transport. 15 I sat through this hearing two16 years ago around a plastic bags ban and17 fee, and got to hear the arguments of18 those that oppose these measures, mostly19 out-of-town organizations that represent20 industries that choose to oppose the21 change rather than to adopt and grow into22 a new environment. 2 People say that the cost to the -- putting3 the cost on the consumer is unfair and4 that this legislation will put small5 businesses out of business. In truth, the6 cost of plastic bags is going somewhere7 currently. 13 The bills that you're14 considering today, particularly the fee,15 will put the cost control into the hands16 of the people directly. 21 And for the manufacturers of22 these products, all businesses must adapt23 and change. 25 36 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 And this bill would provide an opportunity2 for businesses to adopt to making more3 sustainable products. And even without4 the ban, people are moving away from5 Styrofoam and they're moving away from6 plastic bags. So those are becoming7 relics of the past. 9 We also learn that bans and fees10 don't help reduce litter. Well, I don't11 think we have enough good numbers to show12 what happens in the United States. You13 can look at the vast reduction in plastic14 bag waste in and behavior change in15 Ireland and other places around the16 country17 And these bills, I agree, won't18 solve the litter problem in our city, but19 they certainly will go a long way towards20 cleaning up our streets and educating21 residents about waste. 24 Industries will say that plastic25 37 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 bag recycling works. 3 We know that only maybe five percent of4 bags that are used get recycled, and at a5 large cost. 10 Lastly, such a fee will enable11 consumers to use a bag when need be. A12 fee would allow the consumer to use a bag13 but provide an incentive for behavior14 change. 21 And the last argument is that22 paper bags cost more money and fuel to23 transport, and this is also true. But24 this debate here today is not over paper25 38 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 versus plastic; it's about one-time use2 versus reuse. So we're not advocating for3 paper bags, and I wouldn't suggest that4 paper bags or plastic bags are any more5 environmentally sound than the other. 13 Over 250 people have taken action on that14 e-mail, sending e-mails to City Council15 members; I'm sure you've ever received16 some of those e-mails. Among those 25017 people were representatives that couldn't18 be here today:19 The Sisters of St. 13 I think someone mentioned14 earlier that they all made promises that15 they would do more to decrease litter and16 to increase recycling. 7
Thank you8 very much for your testimony. Please9 identify yourself for the record and10 proceed.11
Good morning. My12 name is Katie Edwards. I am a project13 coordinate for Clean Air Council. Clean14 Air Council is a nonprofit, member-15 supported environmental organization, with16 its main office right here in17 Philadelphia. 9 It is a common misconception10 today that plastic bags are actually free11 to the consumer. The consumer pays for12 the management of plastic bag waste rather13 than their actual utility, separating the14 bag from its true cost. 4 An argument often used in5 support of the plastic bags is that they6 require less energy and resources to7 recycle and that they take up less8 landfill space than paper bags. This is9 simply not true. 5 In an urban setting such as6 Philadelphia, plastic bags are a7 particular nuisance and contribute to the8 litter and the quality-of-life issues9 facing our city today. 14 The proposed green fee would go15 a long way in contributing to the success16 of City- and neighborhood-driven17 anti-litter efforts already underway. The18 green fee will also provide the absolutely19 essential incentive for those who choose20 to forego plastic bags and bring their own21 reusable bag. 2 As we've heard earlier,3 currently, many major retail chains, such4 as Ikea, Aldi grocery stories, and Whole5 Foods Markets, already have implemented6 programs to reduce, and, in many cases,7 eliminate the need for plast bags. These8 programs are absolutely working. 25 45 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751
My name is Anne7 Misak, and I am a program organizer with8 Clean Water Action and the Recycling9 Alliance of Philadelphia. I'm also a10 resident of Philadelphia, in the West11 Philadelphia neighborhood in Councilwoman12 Blackwell's district.13 Clean Water Action also has14 10,000 members in Philadelphia that, you15 know, care about these issues and the16 environment.17 I'm going to sort of skip18 through some of my testimony. As you19 said, it's written, and they've touched on20 a lot of the stuff.21 A couple of the issues I wanted22 to talk about is: One, the plastic lobby23 that's very strong and that's here. They24 have a lot of money, and it's evident by25 46 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 the fact that there's a lot of them here2 today. My question is: How many of them3 actually live in Philadelphia?4 You know, they're currently5 fighting these fees and bans in other6 cities, states, and countries, and they7 continually do this. They'll try to8 convince you that this legislation is9 unnecessary. They've gotten some other10 cities to cave to their pressure and11 money, and I hope that members of12 Philadelphia's City Council are able to13 put the interests and well-being of the14 citizens of Philadelphia above the demands15 of industry lobbyist.16 As has been touched on, both17 plastic bags and polystyrene containers18 have a lot of environmental and health19 effects. As we know, neither of them20 break down, they don't biodegrade; they21 photo-degrade, which means they just break22 down into smaller and smaller pieces that23 remain forever in our environment.24 This has been a huge problem,25 47 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 for instance, with marine life in terms of2 sea turtles and other animals that eat3 small pieces of plastic that's floating4 around in the ocean. There is also a5 growing plastic soup island in the Pacific6 that is estimated to be larger than Texas7 and is continually growing from all of the8 plastic waste that we, as humans, produce.9
Excuse me.10 (Pointing to person in chambers dressed11 entirely in plastic bags.) Does he have12 anything to do that over there?13
Well, yes. He's14 keeping those 500 bags from being in the15 ocean right now.16 (Laughter.)17
So, basically, you19 know, as we've seen, they're a huge20 problem.21 I also wanted to touch on some22 of the public health problems related to23 polystyrene that this legislation will24 help to address. Styrene, which is the25 48 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 monomer used in the manufacture of2 polystyrene, is a known lab animal3 carcinogen, meaning it causes cancer. It4 migrates easily into food and beverages5 from the packaging. So when you heat6 polystyrene, or it comes in contact with7 acid such as lemon or fats and oils, it8 releases styrene. According to tests9 conducted by the US EPA, all Americans, a10 hundred percent of us, have styrene lodged11 in our fatty tissue, which means that at12 some point, we have all ingested this13 toxic product.14 According to -- but, you know,15 it's interesting that even when it gets16 hot or if it comes in contact with fatty17 or acid foods, which is, you know, most18 food that we eat, we still use them as19 carryout food containers and then reheat20 them in the microwave. So, by using these21 containers, we're all putting toxins in22 our body.23 Polystyrene is also dangerous24 for those who work in the plants that25 49 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 create it. Workers exposed to styrene in2 an occupational setting evidence numerous3 types of cancer, including leukemia and4 lymphoma and several forms of neurological5 impairment, like loss of hearing and6 balance.7 So, like you, I have heard --8 you know, we've gotten some e-mails from9 people who work in some of plants that10 make the polystyrene containers. And, you11 know, I agree that it's -- they say that12 they're going to lose their jobs. I would13 encourage those companies to switch to14 safer, healthier, better alternatives.15 They're out there, we all have used them16 before.17 As, you know, Brett Mapp18 testified, Whole Foods has them; they're19 wonderful, they work just fine, and they20 don't, you know, poison our bodies, they21 don't poison the people who make them, and22 they don't contribute to the waste that23 exists in our environment.24
There's also25 50 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 a possibility, I would suspect, that the2 Pennsylvania farmer may benefit from some3 type of conversion to a compostable and4 biodegradable product, as I believe the5 Philadelphia Eagles at Lincoln Financial6 Field, all of their food containers and7 beer cups, soda cups, are all, I think,8 corn-based product that do degrade.9 So that's part of what I wanted10 to get at when we were -- my initial11 comments is that I recognize the fear. I12 just want to make sure we give 'em some13 time. But at some point in time, that's14 going to have to happen, but I just wanted15 to give some more time to be more16 cooperative.17
Yes. And we18 totally support that. You know, they19 haven't changed yet, so we hope that maybe20 legislation will help to make them change,21 at least in Philadelphia.22 So, I mean, I guess a lot of23 people have talked about the issues with24 that, you know, this will adversely affect25 51 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 lower-income people. And, you know, I2 definitely want to say that, at least on3 behalf of the Recycling Alliance, our4 chapters and our members, we're all very5 committing to, you know, working with6 Councilpeople to do bag distributions in7 low-income neighborhoods and making sure8 that that isn't the case, because we don't9 want it to have an adverse effect.10 And, you know, you can get --11 (holding up reusable cloth bag) I mean,12 this is my favorite little bag. It's13 tiny, it fits in my purse and my bag and14 goes everywhere with me, and it expands to15 be a shopping bag that's way more durable16 and less harmful to my hands than plastic.17 This can carry all of my groceries, it18 doesn't have to be double-bagged.19 So this is a very good -- you20 know, there are lots of alternatives out21 there that are just as good. You know,22 it's a one-time purchase, you carry it23 with you everywhere, it's really easy.24 And I just want to say that this25 52 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 is my arch nemesis (holding up small2 plastic bag), the little black plastic bag3 that isn't usable for anything else.4 These don't fit in any trashcan that I5 have in my house, you can't reuse them.6 And because they're often, you know, they7 have two little snack things in them, they8 end up on the streets and they're all over9 my neighborhood. I mean, I walk down the10 street all the time, and I was going to11 actually walk down and pick up all of the12 plastic bags that I saw on my way to work13 this morning, but it was raining and14 they're kind of disgusting, so I didn't,15 but it's really sad.16 So I really just hope that, you17 know, that City Council will consider this18 legislation because it's better for the19 environment, it's better for the public20 health and the citizens of Philadelphia,21 and that, you know, you really consider it22 in relation to what the citizens of23 Philadelphia want and not in relation to24 what the industry wants, because they25 53 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 don't live here, they're not a part of our2 community.3 And if they want to come clean4 up our streets, then that's fine, but5 they're not the ones that are, you know,6 out every day like the citizens are, you7 know, cleaning up our parks and our8 neighborhoods.9 Thank you very much.10
Okay. Thank11 you very much for your testimony and for12 coming in.13 (Applause.)14
Any15 questions for these witnesses?16 (No questions or comments.)17
Mr. Winters,18 please.19 Also, in an attempt to20 accommodate the Belmont Charter School,21 which has to leave, we would ask Kendell22 and Sashiana to please come up to testify23 after Mr. Winters, so whoever is ready to24 go.25 54 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 Mr. Winters please identify2 yourself for the record.3
Thank you. My4 name is Dennis R. Winters, and I am the5 conservation chair of the Southeastern6 Group of the Sierra Club. I'm also a7 member of the Solid Waste Committee of the8 Pennsylvania Department of Environmental9 Protection.10 Twenty-five hundred of our11 groups, nine thousand members, live in the12 City of Philadelphia, and I'm here today13 to express their support for Bills 090064,14 74, and 75, legislation that would have15 the effect of reducing our dependency on16 foreign oil and the amount of petroleum-17 based solid waste that is incinerated,18 landfilled, and littering our city.19 Further, eliminating these products helps20 reduce carbon dioxide emissions resulting21 from their creation and their disposal.22 Local Sierrans support this23 legislation because of the environmental24 and esthetic impact of these plastic25 55 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 products, particularly while practical and2 widely variable alternatives exist to3 replace them.4 Today, 80 percent of the5 country's groceries are bagged in plastic,6 up from just 5 percent in 1982. In 2001,7 the US EPA stated that the worldwide8 plastic bag consumption was somewhere9 between 500 million to a trillion. I'm10 sure it's over trillions today. Millions11 of these bags end up in landfills but12 millions more end up littering our13 streets, catching in our city's trees, or14 being flushed by storm water into our15 rivers and ultimately into the ocean.16 Scientists say that the number17 of plastic bags reaching the ocean has a18 negative impact on marine wildlife, which,19 mistaking tiny bits of these plastics as20 food, are choked and strangled by the21 debris. Ocean-borne plastic jetsam is a22 particular threat to endangered sea23 turtles because the remnants plastic bags24 simulate the jellyfish that make up the25 56 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 main constituent of their diets.2 Further, plastic waste is now3 the major component of huge floating4 rafts, that have already been mentioned,5 in the eddies of the earth's oceans, those6 in the Pacific being twice as large as the7 State of Texas.8 Alternatives to these plastic9 products already exist and are readily10 available. Plastic bags can be replaced11 by a variety of reusable bags in one's own12 home, and reusable shopping bags are13 available in almost every grocery store.14 Increasingly, they can also be found in15 other stores selling other kinds of16 merchandise.17 For a sustainability standpoint,18 a sturdy reusable bag needs only to be19 used 11 times to have the lower20 environment impact of using 11 disposal21 plastic bags.22 And as a further illustration --23 and I won't show you all the ones you've24 seen already, but I have a couple here I'd25 57 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 like to bring to your attention.2 First of all, Metropolitan3 Bakery also has a reusable bag.4 This one is one I obtained in5 1970 at the original Earth Day. And, as6 you can see, it's already biodegrading.7 (Applause.)8
And it's been9 useful ever since. And I have several10 others that are in a little better11 condition, but I wanted you to see that12 one.13 This bag is a reusable bag made14 from recycled plastic bags. It's actually15 made by one of our groups of the Sierra16 Club in the State of Pennsylvania at a17 reasonable cost, and you get a chance to18 replace plastic bags with plastic bags.19 Other alternatives include20 improved or modified plastic bags,21 starch-based bags made from starch22 obtained from corn or potatoes and23 converted into lactic acid. The lactic24 acid is then polymerized into25 58 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 biodegradable plastic known as2 polylactide. These starch bags will3 biodegrade after six months to a year4 While paper has been largely5 supplanted by plastic, compostable paper6 bags are gaining popularity as an7 alternative to conventional plastic bags.8 The Biodegradable Plastic9 Institute in New York is a part of10 accommodating the move away from11 non-biodegradable plastic bags and other12 plastic products. This industry works to13 develop biodegradable bags and packaging14 standards and a catalog compliant15 manufacturers of these products to16 encourage the plastic bag industry to17 switch to a more environmentally-sound18 paradigm.19 Legislation limiting or banning20 non-biodegradable plastic bags has been21 explored by communities all over the22 planet. In March 2007, by an almost23 unanimous vote, the San Francisco Board of24 Supervisors passed a citywide ban on25 59 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 plastic bags in grocery stores and2 pharmacies.3 And rather than have this4 labeled as "a California thing," similar5 legislation is being considered, or6 already adopted, in: Boston; Baltimore;7 Annapolis, Maryland; Oakland and Santa8 Monica, California; Portland, Oregon;9 Steamboat Springs, Colorado; and the State10 of Hawaii. Abroad, Ireland, Taiwan, South11 Africa, Australia, and Bangladesh have12 either heavily taxed or banned plastic13 bags, citing their negative environmental14 and sociological effects15 The Sierra Club applauds these16 steps for waste reduction and ending a17 needless dependency on waning supplies of18 cheap oil. The proposed legislation under19 consideration today presents a commendable20 opportunity for Philadelphia-elected21 officials to promote environmental22 stewardship to their residents as well as23 helping the mounting international effort24 to eliminate -- to limit or eliminate use25 60 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 of non-biodegradable superficial plastic2 products.3 The Southeastern Group of the4 Sierra Club appreciates this opportunity5 to presents its views in support of this6 legislation, and we look forward to7 additional action on the part of the City8 Council to eliminate environmentally9 questionable products from the City's10 waste stream11 That ends my formal testimony,12 but I would like to end with a personal13 note. I live in Center City, and, for all14 practical purposes, Fitler Square is my15 front yard. And, personally, I'm sick of16 chasing plastic bags down the street,17 picking them out of the trees, and trying18 to keep one of the City's best kept parks19 in the condition that you usually find it20 So I personally urge you to pass21 this legislation.22
Thank you23 very much for your testimony.24 Sashia? Pull the microphone25 61 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 close to you.2
Of course. My7 name is Julia Mandolini-Tremell. I'm a8 project manager at Community Educational9 Alliance of West Philadelphia. I work at10 the Belmont Charter School with the11 5th-graders. These are two of our12 5th-graders. This is Kendell Dirkson and13 Sashiana Massey.14 About a month ago, we had our15 PSSA testing, as I'm sure all of you guys16 are familiar with. And one of the rules17 of the testing was that we needed to have18 plastic water bottles in each of the19 classrooms every single day of the20 testing. And the testing goes on -- don't21 quote me on this, but I think it's for22 about ten days.23 And so, I saw all of these24 plastic water bottles in our charter25 62 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 director's office, and we don't have a2 recycling program at our school yet,3 nothing's been implemented, and I'm trying4 to change that right now and do that with5 the students so that they have ownership6 of their school and their community.7 However, so I was thinking that8 what better way of not letting these go9 into the trash, into our landfills than to10 have the kids, like, go through the11 schools. And we tried to get all of the12 teachers on board so that they would put13 boxes -- we tried to use boxes so that14 they would put all of their water bottles15 so that even if we weren't doing paper or16 cans or bottles before, that we could at17 least make a dent, you know, and get18 something done and kind of get something19 going, get the ball rolling on the20 recycling program.21 So I selected Kendell because he22 has been very motivated in the past to23 help out with recycling, and he asked if24 he could walk around the school and pick25 63 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 up these bottles from each of the2 classrooms with me, and his sister also3 helped us. So we walked around to all of4 the classrooms and picked up the water5 bottles. And I took them home to my6 apartment complex where we already recycle7 since we didn't have anything at the8 school already. So I stuffed my car, my9 trunk, everything with these bags.10 And we also have -- we also have11 another charter school underneath12 Community Educational Alliance of West13 Philadelphia that does have recycling, and14 so Kendell and I walked those water15 bottles over there as well.16 But that's kind of just the17 introduction to kind of how the ball got18 rolling with recycling at the school. And19 then, what's happened as a product of that20 is that we have a Belmont Beacon, which is21 an after-school program.22 And the other students that23 you'll see sitting over there, there are24 just three there 'cause they're also25 64 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 5th-graders, and I think there's also2 4th-graders that are in now what we've3 created to be a recycling club for our4 after-school program because we don't have5 anything in schools.6 So they walked around and they7 took pictures of the plastic bags and the8 bottles and cans. There's also needles,9 all sorts of things on their playgrounds10 that kids shouldn't see at their age and11 that they really, really want to see12 cleaned up.13 So, without further ado, I'd14 like to pass the mic over to my students.15
Kendell,16 could you please just tell us your name17 and tell us what you want to say about18 this whole thing. And sit up a little bit19 so we can hear you.20 5TH GRADE STUDENT: My name is21 Kendell.22 I think it's important that you23 all pass the law for 25 cents for bags at24 the store because I think the people that25 65 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 litter on our streets would take more2 responsibility, because if they just -- if3 they throwing away bags that they spent 254 cents on, they just throwing away their5 money. Therefore, I think it be helpful6 if you all passed the law for 25 cents for7 each bag at the store.8 It's pretty gross to see that we9 walk around our playground and see that10 it's shattered glass, needles, and11 everything on our playground that kids12 like us can get hurt on.13 And so, that's what I wanted to14 say.15
Thank you16 very much. You said it well.17 (Applause.)18
Could you19 please tell us your name and say what you20 have to say.21 5TH GRADE STUDENT: Hi.22
Hi.23 5TH GRADE STUDENT: My name is24 Sashiana.25 66 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 I think that if you pass the law2 for 25 cents that people wouldn't buy a3 lot of plastic bags and would buy reusable4 bags, and it would be better because if --5 'cause there's a lot of Styrofoam6 containers and plastic bags on the ground7 that kids like me and Kendell can play and8 get hurt.9 And plastic bags on our10 playground get stuck on our gates and be11 under the slide. People get their tangled12 foot in it and trip and fall. And when I13 be walking to school, people just -- they14 dump their bags, they just throw it on the15 ground; they don't even put it in the16 trashcan.17 So if you would pass the law for18 25 cents, they wouldn't buy plastic bags19 so they couldn't throw it on the ground.20 They would just use their reusable bags.21
Thank you22 very much for your testimony.23 (Applause.)24
Before I25 67 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 recognize Councilmember Jones, obviously,2 you're doing a very good job at the school3 because the testimony was well given, and4 they're very bright and mature young5 people.6 So thank you for your work.7
I'm going to12 be brief because there are a lot of people13 who want to testify, but I could not14 resist commenting on the fact that you15 guys are articulate, you get it. And we16 just hope that, you know, out of the17 mouths of babes comes some wisdom for our18 government.19 And I want to thank you for20 taking your time out of your studies to21 come down here and participate in this22 hearing. And we hear you.23
Thank you24 very much.25 68 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 PANEL: Thank you.2
The next6 panel is Justin Brame, Maurice Sampson,7 Viviane VanStory.8 (Witnesses come forward.)9
My name is Justin12 Brame. 14 For almost two years now, I've15 spent a large portion of my life's energy16 working as an account manager for the17 Chico Bag Company. 20 As you may know, Chico bags are21 compact and reusable shopping bags22 designed for those who have difficulty23 remembering the bulkier or canvas-style24 reusable totes. 16 When I stop to think about it, I17 realize how annoying I must be to my18 friends and family when our conversations19 have been so fraught with such a20 relatively inane issue such as plastic21 bags. 2 Contrary to your expectations at3 this point, I have very little to gain4 from the passage of the plastic bag ban or5 for a green fee. I personally have6 finally reached a point in my life where7 I've decided to dedicate the next four8 years towards pursuing my doctor of9 chiropractic. So very soon, I'll be10 stepping away from the world of reusable11 bags. 21 When I started with the Chico22 Bag Company two years ago, I believe there23 were about 6 of us, and now there are over24 35 employed. In this economic climate,25 71 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 many businesses will fail. Those that2 safeguard the environment will have3 greater potential to prosper. 9 This issue is not about plastic10 versus paper. One of my favorites11 arguments that I've heard is that plastic12 is more environmentally friendly than13 paper. 18 But the interesting thing is19 that these arguments almost always leave20 reusable shopping bags out of the21 equation. 2 This issue is not about whose3 truths are more right. You know how4 articles posted on the Internet these5 days, they have a space below to post6 comments about the article. 16 For example, the website's home17 page debunks a myth that plastic bags are18 the number-one threat to ocean wildlife19 and says that discarded fishing line poses20 the greater hazard. 6 This issue is not about poor7 people. , in 1987,8 race and class were cleverly used to9 divide a unified public that supported a10 ballot question that would have levied a11 5-cent, a nickel deposit, on plastic or12 glass drink bottles. 18 At this point in history, I19 would be disappointed if we are not able20 to see through these manipulative and21 deceitful practices. 8 I understand that plastic bag9 manufacturing and distribution is big10 corporate business. 17 The counter argument is that it18 is a litter problem and not a problem with19 plastics. When is the last time you saw a20 paper or a reusable bag hanging from a21 tree or floating down the river. 2 So far, I've testified about3 what this is not about. What this is4 about is about doing what's prudent. In5 many ways, the problem of single-use6 plastic bags has come to symbolize our7 wasteful, care-free attitude toward8 consumption. It also reflects the various9 dichotomies that occur between corporate10 interests and grassroots networks of11 concerned citizens. 4
Good morning. My5 name is Viviane VanStory, and I'm6 president and founder of an organization7 called Community Land Trust Corporation, a8 community housing development9 organization.10 A community land trust11 corporation's primary objective is quite12 comprehensive. It's the planning, design,13 and management of the public outdoor14 environment.15 For twenty five years, I've16 studied urban environmental changes here17 in Philadelphia. I -- the community18 opposes the fee for 25 cents. If you have19 an access card and you have 20 bags once a20 month, how can you afford 25 cents.21 We have an alternative22 suggestion. Instead of losing jobs at23 manufacturers, why don't they make24 biodegradable bags instead of plastic25 77 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 bags. Wouldn't that make more sense than2 for them to lose jobs than to charge 253 cents for people that can't afford to pay4 for bags? Save-A-Lot is an example. They5 do bring bags, but they bring plastic6 bags.7 I'm here to talk for the urban8 part of Philadelphia here. I go to whole9 foods, which is a good store here, but --10 I'll wait till you finish talking before I11 --12
We're16 listening but I wanted to let him know17 that I wanted to comment.18
Okay, thank you.19 Whole Foods is a good store, but20 you don't find people with six or seven21 children going to Whole Foods every month22 for shopping there. And they have bags23 that are biodegradable that have come out.24 I'm here to support the bills25 78 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 that are before you today but my oppose2 are the 25 cents. And the students spoke3 very good here; they were taught to speak4 that way. But if their parents knew that5 they were testifying on charging 25 cents6 per bag, if they have four or five, it7 wouldn't be -- I don't think it would be a8 good suggestion.9 And I thank you for allowing me10 to testify here today. And I thank you11 for having this hearing on the12 environmental issues here in Philadelphia.13
And I14 appreciate your comments, and I think most15 of the panelists agree that the idea here16 is to get the manufacturers of bags to17 understand that the time has come for18 biodegradable alternatives.19
So we agree21 on that.22 One of the things that you tend23 to do to change behavior is to create24 financial incentives to do so.25 79 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751
So the idea3 of the 25 cents is not so much to be a4 burden on people with access cards --5
-- many of7 whom are in my district. I thought about8 this a long time before I signed onto9 this.10
But one of12 the environmental issues that I have in13 the lower-income areas of my district are14 the tumble weeds -- that kids call "tumble15 weeds" now that are known as plastic bags.16
And one of18 the issues is the drug baggies that I find19 littered on the streets when I do cleanups20 with my block captains. We sweep up as21 many plastic drug bags as we do plastic22 bags.23 And it is of a concern to me24 when I go to a playground, and before a25 80 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 kid can play catch with his father or his2 teammates, they have to clean the school3 yard of plastic bags and other debris4 before they can even begin a recreation5 activity.6 So we, as a city, aren't trying7 to be onerous to low-income areas. And,8 believe me, I thought about this three9 times before we even signed on.10 But what we have to do, what we11 cannot afford not to do is change the12 behavior of the people that bring plastic13 into our environment and leave it there14 without any regard for how it gets picked15 up.16 As I do budget hearings for the17 Sanitation Department, we are actually18 literally choosing between picking up19 trash twice a month versus the weekly20 amount of trash that we do because of the21 tonnage, the increased tonnage, based on22 plastic and disposal cartons.23 We're going to change behavior24 and it is as easy to supply customers with25 81 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 alternatives. I remember when we used to2 get Big Macs in these kinds of things, and3 we're pushing them to do it again. And4 it's not designed to be a punishment but5 to be some type of prodding to the6 industry to let them know that recyclable,7 sustainable communities' time has come.8
Community Land9 Trust Corporation has been dealing with10 environmental issues and changing behavior11 changes since 1980s. We have had Youth12 Works teaching them the quality of the13 water quality in Philadelphia, plastic14 use. And we've work with the Department15 of Corrections in managing land longer16 than any entity here in the City. So we17 are very much aware of it.18 But what I'm here saying to you19 is that we need to go after the20 manufacturers on changing their behavior21 on manufacturing the types of materials22 that are bad for our economy and23 environment, because if I have a choice24 between -- if I don't know the choice, we25 82 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 need to educate them concerning what is2 good and what is bad for our environment.3 And once we do that, the third4 generation will know what's good and5 what's bad, I accept it. For an example,6 to put their recycle bins in their area7 and a trash bin, they said they don't do8 that because the children will not9 recycle, but if their parents are being10 fined, like they are, and once they're11 being fined at home because it's at their12 pocketbook, then when they go out into the13 street, maybe the second generation will14 know the difference between recycle and15 trash. So we need to educate them first.16 But we don't -- I guarantee you,17 if you pass the bill of 25 cents, they're18 going to look at each Councilperson in the19 district when it comes for voting, what20 they're doing to you.21 Thank you for your time again.22
I appreciate23 it. And I hope they do, I hope they do,24 because if I can go to a school yard that25 83 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 is clean, and if I can go to folk and let2 them know that we are changing the mindset3 of not only the consumer but the4 manufacturer, I'll be judged on that.5 I'll take that.6
Thank you9 very much for your testimony. Please10 identify yourself for the record.11
Yes. 11 I want to really begin by12 thanking Councilmen Kenney and DiCicco and13 your staff for your leadership in14 introducing this legislation. 24 According to National Geographic News,25 85 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 politicians all across the US and around2 the world, from Australia to the United3 Kingdom, have taken action on, or are4 seriously considering, banning or taxing5 plastic bags. 19 One of the most successful20 measures really in the world is in21 Ireland. 3 A national ban or a tax is being4 debated in Australia and in the United5 Kingdom. Plastic sacks are also taxed in6 Italy, Belgium. Grocery shoppers must pay7 for bags in Switzerland, Germany, Holland,8 Spain, and Norway. " The17 thinnest bags were banned nationwide just18 before the Summer Olympics. Taiwan taxes19 bags, as does the city of Dunka,20 Bangladesh. 5 Finally, I want to share with6 you an experience I had early in my career7 that I think is relevant to your8 objectives. In 1983, as the recycling9 coordinator for Newark, New Jersey, I was10 summoned to attend a meeting at the11 Rutgers Bush College, which is the12 engineering school there, together with13 other recycling coordinators across the14 state, a number of public officials from15 the New Jersey Environmental Protection16 Agency. 4 The purpose of the meeting was5 to provide us, as public officials, with6 information on the coming trends in7 packaging. 11 Fourth, and most important, is12 what I learned in the couple of years that13 followed. Recycling of packaging is not a14 realistic option; it is a delay tactic, it15 is a delay tactic. 18 Globally, experience shows that19 bans and taxes work. Given the outcome of20 many proposals around the country, what we21 have been coming to is recycling over bans22 and taxes. If, indeed, you find that that23 becomes your compromises position, I want24 to offer a recommendation:25 90 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 Hard-wire into the legislation2 mandatory goals that need to be met on a3 timetable. If the goals aren't met,4 trigger the ban, trigger the ban. 6 Good luck. 9
Thank you.10 Well, I hope not, but thank you for your11 testimony.12 (Applause.)13
Thank you.16 A sincere thanks to all of you17 and even the contrary opinions because18 it's important for to us take into19 consideration everyone's view of what the20 impacts will be and unintended21 consequences sometimes of legislation. So22 truly, I appreciate that.23 Maurice, I just want to thank24 you because I'm the newer member up here25 91 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 but I'm not so new to government not to2 know your commitment to recycling in the3 City of Philadelphia and some of the4 architect of some of our current recycling5 programs. And I thank you for taking the6 time out to come and give your view on7 this.8
Thank you10 very much for your testimony.11 Our next panel is Lara Kelly,12 Lynn Mather, Phoebe Coles.13 (Witnesses come forward.)14
Good16 afternoon. Please identify yourself for17 the record.18
My name is Lara19 Kelly and I'm with Northern Liberties20 Clean and Green.21
I see a lot of suits24 here, and I suspect that they represent25 92 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 some rather large companies. Behind me,2 not in front of me.3
But I'm here to6 represent a neighborhood in this city.7 We do have a lot of fundraising8 on a very basic level. We have plant9 sales and we have music festivals, we do10 bake sales, you know, really simple stuff.11 And part of the money that we raise goes12 to cleaning our neighborhood.13 We have two guys who would14 otherwise be unemployed if our15 neighborhood didn't give them some work to16 do. It's sweeping up. It's not a great17 job, but they make our neighborhood look18 great.19 No matter what we do, we cannot20 stem the flow of plastic bags that blow up21 Second Street and down Fifth Street. It's22 an epidemic.23 And as Mayor Nutter said on24 Wednesday at the Green Works presentation,25 93 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 he wants to make Philadelphia the greenest2 City. Well, we want to make Northern3 Liberties the greenest neighborhood.4 Without doing something about the plastic5 bags, it will never happen. It's a --6 it's an epidemic.7 I want to encourage Council to8 be on the forefront. As Maurice just9 pointed out, countries around the world10 are taking a stand against plastic bags,11 and there's a reason for it.12 For once, I'd like Philadelphia13 to be in the forefront instead of waiting,14 like old Philadelphia, where half the15 world is doing something, and then we jump16 on the bandwagon. Let's be progressive17 and let's step into the forefront, and18 let's do it. Let's be one of the second19 or third cities in this country to really20 take a stand and do something about21 plastic bags.22 I just have a --23 (Applause.)24
I just have a quick25 94 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 couple facts that I found entertaining.2 Every year, Americans throw away3 some hundred billion plastic bags after4 they've been used once, to transport a5 prescription home from the drugstore or a6 40 home from the corner store.7 If we can learn to put a seat8 belt on every time we get into the car, we9 can learn to bring a reusable bag to the10 store with us every trip. It's about11 retraining your brain.12 Plastic bags are very13 aerodynamic. I took, I'd say, a half14 dozen of these pictures just around the15 city. Plastic bags are very aerodynamic.16 Once aloft, plastic bags cartwheel down17 streets, they land in trees, they billow18 into fences, wash into our rivers, and end19 up in the ocean. Bits of plastic bags20 have been found in nests of albatrosses in21 the remote Midway Islands; they never die.22 The albatross do, the plastic bags don't.23 The problem with plastic bags24 isn't just where they end up; it's that25 95 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 they never seem to end. All of the2 plastic that has ever been made is still3 around in smaller and smaller pieces.4 Recycling is a great proposition but only5 1 percent of plastic bags get recycled.6 And even if that was encouraged, if people7 put them into a bin to be recycled, they8 still get blown down the street; they're9 very aerodynamic.10 Northern Liberties Clean and11 Green cannot support Council anymore12 wholeheartedly on this. We think it's a13 great idea.14
Thank you15 for your testimony. Please identify16 yourself for the record.17
And I reside in Mt.21 Airy.22 When I first heard about these23 three bills, I cheered. And then my24 second reaction was, Oh, I better keep the25 96 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 plastic bags I have. I have not been2 acquiring plastic bags willingly for many,3 many years and, yet, they still come into4 my home because I do purchase food and I5 do buy hardware and I do buy clothes, and6 very often, these things come already with7 plastic on the outside. And I get them8 home that way.9 I have for years been telling10 people not to leave any -- when they bring11 plastic bags in my home, to leave with12 their plastic bags. So I'm not looking to13 acquire any more. And I remember the last14 time I believe that I actually purchased15 plastic was in April of 2003 for a project16 for putting personal-care items together17 for Iraqi citizens, and I was required, I18 was told, if I was going to take part in19 this project, I needed to have these20 plastic bags. So I very -- with great21 reluctance, purchased them.22 But I realize, nevertheless, I23 have all over my house plastic bags24 serving me in many different capacities --25 97 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 as well as holding dry beans and nuts from2 my food co-op, but I use them when I3 travel for holding jewelry and for storing4 dirty laundry when I travel, and in the5 yard for weeds and debris. And it will be6 for me also a change, I realized, as my7 second reaction.8 Changing habits is a radical9 thing. And when they're habits of a10 lifetime, it's a considerable step for11 people to make. And we often need12 something very clear and very strong to13 help us along. And something like bans,14 regulations, restrictions are really15 assets to help us when we recognize that16 the conditions that come from this will17 improve our culture, our life.18 There are many products we19 produce in our society, our market-based20 culture. We have the freedom to produce,21 you know, just about anything. And we're22 not -- we're not required to think about23 all of the consequences of it, whether it24 comes to cellphones and the risks that25 98 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 they clearly entail with particular use,2 that now are seeing more and more kind of3 restrictions on them; or nuclear devices4 that weren't thought through in terms of5 their longer-term consequences for waste6 storage and possible and harmful uses.7 So this is just, I think, the8 step -- a regular step in the course of9 human activity and in human enterprise10 that is inevitable.11 I see other positives to it in12 direct results of this. One that I13 imagine that will happen will be reduction14 of trash overall in the City. I have been15 observing the output of trash and16 recyclables on our block for a period of17 months and have learned that although the18 City doesn't require any plastic bagging19 of trash or plastic bagging of20 recyclables, people do it. I have21 informed my neighbors -- we have an e-mail22 list on my block, and I have informed them23 a number of times that we don't need to24 put them in plastic bags, that the City is25 99 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 very willing to take them directly from2 your barrel. And yet people continue.3 Again, it is habit, it seems convenient.4 This is -- I think people will5 begin to see their trash differently as6 they realize that they don't have that7 asset, what seems to be an asset, of8 plastic bags to put things in. And I9 think it will support the effort for10 composting, which, I think, is having a11 tremendous surge right now, and it would12 give it a real -- greater support.13 So I urge you to consider all14 three of these bills.15
Thank you16 very much for your testimony.17 Please identify yourself for the18 record.19
My name is Phoebe23 Coles, and I'm with Keep Philadelphia24 Beautiful. It's nice to see Councilman25 100 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 DiCicco, Kenney and Jones this afternoon.2
I'm here4 representing Philadelphia's affiliate for5 our national organization Keep America6 Beautiful. For the last 50 years, Keep7 America Beautiful has been concerned8 primarily with waste -- litter abatement,9 waste reduction, and beautification in10 communities. So I'm able to sort of11 harness the experiences of over 50012 affiliates nationwide to just give a13 little -- some of the projects that have14 been successful using education and15 awareness as a stimulant for behavioral16 change.17 We've seen litter reduction18 rates for plastic bags and, in particular,19 in Austin, Texas. Texas, just like20 Pennsylvania, is also looking at a21 statewide ban or a statewide legislation22 against bags. And in lieu of that, our23 affiliate, Keep Austin Beautiful, was able24 to harness partnerships between private25 101 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 and government to do the following:2 In their first round of3 reporting -- this is an 18-month pilot4 that they've done. In their first round5 of reporting, they were able to reduce the6 amount of plastic bags purchased by 407 percent, they increased recycling by 208 percent, and a total of over 443,000 bags9 were given out to residents of Austin,10 Texas.11 For the last year, I have met12 and talked to several of you about working13 on waste-reduction strategies. And for14 the last year, I have been working with15 neighborhood corridors and other companies16 like Terra Cycle to find a reasonable17 solution to just the behavior change18 aspect.19 Whether the law goes through or20 not, whether there's a tax or not, our21 organization is here to be an advocate for22 a waste-reduction strategy in general. So23 we are actually in the process of24 completing a request for participation25 102 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 from business corridors to be involved in2 a 3R campaign that: One, will sort of3 highlight this bag, which we're calling4 the Philly bag, and then also talk to5 communities about their impact on waste6 reduction.7 It actually is kind of funny.8 Today, you had two schools here, and I've9 actually worked with both of those10 schools. Cook Wissahickon was the first11 litter-free zone school that I did two12 years ago. And Miss Julie actually13 e-mailed me a couple days ago, wanting me14 to come in and do recycling. You're15 absolutely right. The kids are the16 impetus for this, whether they're high17 school through college.18 So I just wanted to say for Keep19 Philadelphia Beautiful's part, we are20 interested in backing up however this21 turns out. We are starting our campaign22 in June with commercial corridors that23 have festivals, and we'll be talking to24 people about reducing their waste -- not25 103 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 only plastic bags but in general.2 So thank you for the opportunity3 to be on the reported.4
Thank you5 very much.6 Is your organization in favor of7 the bills?8
We are in favor of9 whatever tactics we think can work for10 litter reduction.11 So as far as the bill is12 concerned, we're sort of in the middle13 because we're part of the Streets14 Department, and so, whatever legislation's15 enacted we'll be supportive of.16
Okay. Thank17 you very much for your testimony.18 CHAIRMAN COATES: You're19 welcome.20
Patrick21 Conway? Patrick Conway?22 (Witness comes forward.)23
Good24 afternoon.25 104 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751
My name's Patrick5 Conway. 13 I'm Patrick Conway, and I'm14 speaking on behalf of the Restaurant15 Association as well as their Philadelphia16 Delaware Valley chapter today. 25 in sales for other industries in12 Philadelphia, and each dollar spent in our13 establishments also establishes 59 cents14 of household income. 24 The proposed ban on the use of25 106 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 food packaging containing polystyrene in2 particular would hit City restaurants3 extremely hard. Even in good economic4 times, restaurants operate on very tight5 profit margins. 24 Banning the use of rigid25 107 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 polystyrene in particular is especially2 difficult because restaurants use items3 like straws, utensils, and lids, and4 they're made from materials more rigid5 than foam. 7 Substitute materials simply do not hold up8 with hot foods very well. 25 108 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 In terms of composting and2 recycling, it's also been found that no3 market exists today outside of China that4 will accept and use food-contaminated5 paper products. Another important6 consideration, we believe, is that there's7 no environmentally-acceptable form of8 litter, none of us believe that. 14 In fact, a 2008 litter audit15 done for the City of San Francisco16 confirms that banning food-related17 polystyrene foam packaging would simply18 change the type of litter found on our19 sidewalks, in our streets, and in our20 waterways. 17 In closing, I'd like to thank18 the committee and the Council for the19 opportunity to be here today. 25 110 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751
Thank you2 very much for your testimony.3 I was born in 1958, and I've4 eaten in a lot of different restaurants --5 takeouts, corner delis, high-end6 restaurants, medium restaurants.7 What did they all do before they8 put their material in polystyrene or9 plastic bags? I mean, it seems that we10 had restaurants, they flourished. They11 went out of business for one reason or12 another -- not necessarily because they13 used a paper bag or because they wrapped a14 sandwich in paper as opposed to putting it15 in a polystyrene container.16 So there was -- and Councilman17 DiCicco and I have this conversation all18 the time about the plastic bags in the19 supermarkets. How did we exist before we20 had them?21
Well, I'd like,22 first of all, to thank you, Councilman,23 for dining out often.24
Yes.25 111 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751
Thank you very much5 for that.6 And, you know, it's a very good7 question. Over time, I think various8 businesses have used different types of9 packaging prerogatives. And as technology10 has evolved, products that -- you know,11 polystyrene products in particular,12 because of the food-safety assets that13 they are and because they provide a14 certain service to the customer by, you15 know, utilizing hot foods and utensils16 that don't melt, you know, we've evolved,17 I think, as an industry to come to use18 those more frequently.19 Whereas, in the past, in the20 late '50s, early '60s, you know, people21 were wrapping up sandwiches and things to22 go in tin foil, you know, or other23 packaging, things that also ended up being24 disposed.25 112 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 Of. And so, it's evolved over2 time, but I'm not sure we didn't have the,3 you know, the same types of concerns in4 the past, just that the products may have5 had a --6
And we had a7 pretty extensive hearing two years ago,8 and I'm not going to get into the efficacy9 of polystyrene. There's as many arguments10 that can be made by the industry and by11 the environmentalists that can beat each12 other up all day.13 But, I mean, you talk about14 melting things. I mean, I've had15 polystyrene containers that have -- the16 food has melted it, and, you know, you get17 that pocked-mark-looking --18 (Applause.)19
Obviously,20 it's hot and it melts that also.21 The question I have for you is:22 Have you had the opportunity to go to the23 Lincoln Financial Field, to an Eagles game24 or to any event there, where the25 113 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 compostable and biodegradable products are2 used, the plastic containers, the beer3 cups, and the soda cups?4 What's the problem with, over5 time, evolving in that direction as6 opposed to staying with the petroleum7 product? Why not go to an agriculture8 product?9
You know, I think10 our industry -- and you're going to hear11 from a lot of qualified business experts12 today. But, I think, speaking for13 restaurants, you know, we're not evil14 people.15
We're creating jobs17 in our communities. You know, we're18 philanthropically-oriented. Nine out of19 ten restaurants in Philadelphia are giving20 back in their towns and communities and in21 our neighborhoods, and these other22 business folks behind me will tell you the23 same thing.24 I think that all of us are25 114 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 willing to work with policymakers and2 lawmakers such as yourselves here in City3 Council to evolve and to try to find4 better ways and better, you know, systems5 that we can address some of these6 concerns.7 I guess our concern is that, you8 know, we don't have -- in a draconian9 fashion, especially in such a dramatic and10 difficult economic time, that we11 collaborate together to develop long-term,12 sustainable strategies that will address13 some of our shared concerns.14
See, the15 issue and why I -- I mean, my initial16 comments relative to my particular bill I17 prime-sponsored relative to polystyrene18 was that in that bill, it says that if19 there is not an economically-viable20 alternative, then it's not banned. It's21 not an outright ban. It's basically22 saying that if we have an alternative that23 is the same price or less, you are then24 required to use that.25 115 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 So how would that economically2 impact your -- the people you represent3 if, in fact, the product that they need to4 use is at the same price or cheaper?5
Great point,6 Councilman. And I think, you know, we'd7 like to work with you on that.8 We think most of the9 alternatives are more costly and less10 effective. And, in fact, some of them may11 not even have a recycling market. So we12 may be, you know, evolving into a13 situation where we're creating other14 problems. And we would like to define15 that and work with you so we can16 understand what that's going to be17 relative to --18
And, again,19 I don't want to beat a dead horse. And20 Councilman DiCicco, I'm sure has a21 question, and maybe Councilman Jones.22 But we've been waiting for two23 years for those innovative alternatives24 and ideas. And that's, I guess, the25 116 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 frustration we feel is that when we sat in2 our offices and had these long discussions3 and listened to everybody's point of view4 and went away with a good feeling that,5 jeez, they're going to go out and come6 back with recycling alternatives, with7 composting alternatives, with other8 products alternatives.9 And nothing happened. And we're10 back here two years later, in the same11 spot we are today, being asked to work12 into the future, which, as I said, early13 on I'm very willing to do for lots of14 other reasons. I just don't see -- at15 some point, and I don't want to go on and16 wax on forever, but I could tell you -- I17 mean, he (pointing to Councilman DiCicco)18 had an issue, the same issue I had.19 When we went through the20 cigarette, the smoking ban situation, I21 remember sitting in here and listening to22 mom-and-pop bar owners and restaurant23 owners and the like talk about how the24 fact that they were going to go out of25 117 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 business if we banned smoking in indoor2 public places.3 And I grew up in a neighborhood4 in South Philadelphia where there was a5 taproom or a saloon on every corner, and6 they employed people -- waitresses,7 bartenders, cleanup staff, the owners8 themselves who lived upstairs, and for9 five years, I listened to their complaints10 and tried to understand where they were11 coming from. And at the end of the five12 years, I realized that I was wrong. And,13 actually, the two of us were probably the14 two swing votes 'cause he (referring to15 Councilman DiCicco) came out of the same16 kind of neighborhood setting and17 restaurant, you know, mom-and-pop18 operations that I did. But after five19 years, we realized we were wrong.20 And then we finally voted to ban21 indoor public smoking, it was one of the22 best votes I've ever made. And I didn't23 realize it until, you know, it started to24 be implemented and go into effect, and25 118 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 people were required to abide by it, that2 the environment cleaned up, that it was a3 nicer time to go out, that you didn't have4 to hang your clothes in the yard when you5 came home, you know, after a night, you6 know, of being out in a bar or a7 restaurant.8 To me, we lost five years of9 good health because I was trying to be10 understanding to the cohort of folks that11 were saying, "This bill will put me out of12 business," and it didn't. It may have, in13 fact, increased their business.14 So that's the mindset on these15 environmental and health-related issues16 that I'm coming from, after having17 experienced a five-year -- we held it up18 for five years, waiting for the data and19 the proof that this was, in fact, going to20 put them out of business, when cities like21 New York and other places and other22 countries were experiencing an uptick in23 people going out to restaurants and bars24 because they no longer had that toxin in25 119 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 their environment.2 So working with you, I'm always3 willing to do that. And as I said, with4 the people from the companies around the5 State, I'm willing to work with them too.6 But at some point in time -- I don't want7 to be a five-year wrong again. You know,8 I want to try to get this done sooner than9 we took to get the smoking ban done.10
Councilman, if I11 could just comment briefly --12 (Applause.)13
-- your comments14 are very understandable. And to give you15 a sense about some of the industry groups16 that you may hear from today, certainly in17 the case of the Restaurant Association --18
I'm sorry,19 not to interrupt you, but you guys didn't20 want the smoking ban, either, did you?21
Well, actually,22 what I was going to tell you is, we23 actually just -- I like to think that24 we're a big part of the reason that25 120 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 there's a statewide smoking ban now --2
-- because our5 board, in 2006, embraced the smoking ban,6 and we felt that there should be a7 statewide smoking ban --8
-- because of the10 public health aspects, and it should be11 comprehensive. Unfortunately, there are12 some exemptions, as you know, in the State13 bill, but we supported the ban. And I14 point that out because we felt we did that15 for the right reasons based on the public16 health aspects.17 So we're not unaccustomed to18 taking a stand like that that could19 require a mandate, you know, on our20 businesses, but we try to be a thoughtful21 and reasonable organization and be a22 resource for you, and we just wanted to23 raise some of the very legitimate24 questions that I've talked about -- and25 121 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 you're going to hear a lot more from the2 experts here behind me today -- to just3 ensure that those are part of the dialogue4 as we move forward.5
Thank you6 very much for your testimony.7 We have one witness from the8 last panel that I did not get up. Josina9 Guess.10 (Witness comes forward.)11
My name is Josina18 Cooper Guest. I'm the director of19 Children Youth and Family Ministry at20 Woodland Presbyterian Church, in Southwest21 Philadelphia, and I'm also a nine-year22 resident of Southwest Philadelphia and a23 mother of three.24 I wanted to show you all a25 122 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 sample of a weaving project that I've2 begun doing, using plastic bags. I've had3 people write their prayers on plastic bags4 and then create yarn out of the plastic5 bag to make a weaving. And I'm working on6 making a rug that contains -- even during,7 while we were waiting to begin, I gathered8 the hopes and prayers of people here at9 this hearing as well. But uh... sorry.10 The one thing I wanted to say11 about this weaving project is that it12 contains -- I've been working on it for a13 few months now, and it has the prayers of14 homeless people of Ph.D's, of students, of15 children, of Chinese, black, white16 Ethiopian people from all over the City.17 And I just believe that it's easy to be18 polarized and to think that there's -- you19 know, you can have one view or another20 view, but we're all a part of one human21 community, and our lives are very22 interwoven.23 And I'm thankful that our city24 is considering this legislation and25 123 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 considering how everyone's lives are2 affected by plastic bags.3 And as a mother of three and as4 a low-income person, I would just like to5 say personally that the tax on bags would6 have no impact on me personally. I think7 that we are addicted to convenience in our8 society, and I think that people should9 pay for their addiction and count the10 cost. And so I'm willing to support this11 wholeheartedly.12 So thank you.13
Rich17 McMenamen, Tom Petitte, Rocco D'Antonio18 and Randy St. John, please.19 (Witnesses come forward.)20
Whoever21 would like to start, please identify22 yourself for the record.23 MR. McMENAMEN: Good afternoon,24 Chairman Kenney --25 124 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751
Good2 afternoon.3 MR. McMENAMEN: -- and4 distinguished members. My name is Rich5 McMenamen. I am the owner-operator of the6 ShopRite at Roosevelt Boulevard and the7 ShopRite at Morrell Plaza located in8 Northeast Philadelphia, and I'm here to9 comment on Bill No.'s 090074 and 090075.10 When I purchased the ShopRite11 back in 1995, there were six ShopRite12 stores operating within the City of13 Philadelphia. Today, there are 1214 ShopRites, each employing about 25015 associates in each. And I believe this is16 just an example of our commitment to the17 City of Philadelphia.18 Wakefern ShopRite's dedication19 to environmental stewardship is20 multifaceted. We operate in Elizabeth,21 New Jersey, our own recycling plant, which22 operates 16 hours a day, 6 days a week.23 In 2008, ShopRite recycled 98,000 tons of24 cardboard and 2,100 tons of plastic film25 125 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 and shopping bag.2 In 1992, ShopRite implemented a3 bag reuse program, one of the first of its4 kinds in the Northeast. A customer who5 reused their plastic, paper, or reusable6 shopping bags are rebated to cents per7 bag. So a customer that brings in a paper8 or a plastic bag, we'll rebate them 29 cents when they use it. And if they bring10 in a reusable bag from any other place --11 it doesn't matter if it's a competitor's12 bag or whatever the case is -- we'll give13 them a nickel rebate off their order on14 that particular.15 In 2008, ShopRite customers16 reused more than 22 million bags, saving17 them over $700,000 off their grocery bill.18 The interesting thing about that is, it's19 a 300 percent increase over last year, and20 the early signs for 2009 are appearing to21 be an increase over that.22 Additionally, we provide23 plastic-bag recycling bins and encourage24 our customers to use fewer bags by25 126 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 offering reusable bags for sale at a2 nominal cost. In 2007, customers3 purchased 200,000 non-disposal bags. In4 2008, sales roached 1.7 million. So we5 feel that our efforts were working as far6 as being able to increase it at least7 eight times.8 It is programs such as these9 that help better our environment.10 Prohibiting the use of plastic and paper11 bags and replacing them with compostable12 bags will produce unintended consequences.13 Combining compostable bags with the bags14 currently being recycled at Wake Ferns15 recycling facility will possibly16 contaminate the load, which could result17 in diminished recycling compatibilities.18 It is also important to note19 that compostable plastic bags will only20 degrade in a professionally-managed,21 large-scale composting facility, not in22 the landfill where they may ultimately end23 up.24 We are unable to support the25 127 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 green fee, which essentially amounts to a2 25-cent bag tax on consumers. Our3 customers are already feeling the burden4 of this economic downturn. Instead of5 further straining their budgets, we would6 rather continue to offer our customers7 incentives and promote recycling programs.8 The commonsense approach helps keep money9 in our customers' pockets and bags out of10 the landfills.11 We believe that every retailers12 should be responsible for improvement of13 the environment, and not just supermarkets14 with gross annual sales of over 2 million15 or pharmacies.16 In conclusion, we would ask that17 you reconsider the legislative approach to18 mandating compostable bags and placing a19 25-cent tax on grocery bags; and, instead,20 consider promoting recycling and reusable21 shopping bag programs. We are committed22 to working with the City of Philadelphia23 to find a better way to effectively24 address this issue.25 128 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 I think that we are both looking2 for the same result; we're just going3 about it in different ways.4 Thank you.5
10 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Thank you,11 Mr. Chair. And thank you, Mr. 17 You have -- in your testimony,18 you talk about the programs you have19 initiated giving rebates for people who20 reuse their bags. I just don't21 understand. If people are moving towards22 less use of plastic bags and your company23 is part of that effort, why would not a24 ban be appropriate? 5 MR. 11 MR. 22 The problem is, is that there's23 only so much in that pie, there's only so24 much money that people have to spend. 6 Now, admittedly, I think some7 people will switch and will start using8 reusable bags, but I don't know what the9 percentage of those people are. 12 And what we've found is, it's13 somewhat effective. "4 As Councilman Kenney talked5 about earlier, I'm born 12 years before6 Councilman Kenney, and I come from a time7 when everything got used and reused. "12 I always wonder, Where is13 "away"? "14 And I'm not here to beat up on15 the chemical industry. 23 And, again, I know for myself,24 in the last month, I've been trying to be25 132 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 more conscious of when I go shopping. And2 I do very little shopping, but when I do3 go, I have a reusable bag that sits on the4 backseat of my car. "11 But most people, I would12 think -- and that's not to be13 disrespectful -- don't think of it that14 way because it's "away" again. 7 But they don't see it because8 it's just a part of your tax bills. When9 you go to the store and pay wage tax,10 sales tax, whatever in how the City11 generates its revenue. 18 So I don't know if there's any19 middle ground. 25 134 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 I think the ban would just go2 the final step. 3 MR. 3 People are using those plastic4 bags. I know if I walk into my5 91-year-old mother's house, every trashcan6 has a ShopRite bag in that trashcan. And,7 you know, most of my customers, you know,8 they want more plastic bags 'cause they9 want to use them to put in their trashcans10 when they get home; they only want me to11 put three or four items in a bag. 15 So, you know, now the16 alternative is, will they have to buy17 trash bags off the shelf to do those kinds18 of things? 9 MR. 10 And there would be no reason to because11 we're actually giving them an incentive to12 reuse that bag. 17 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: And the18 only other comment I'd make -- and if my19 back was in better shape, I'd actually get20 up, but you can look around these chambers21 and you'll see these rubber wastebaskets22 that have a plastic bag liner in it. 24 MR. McMENAMEN: Yeah. 4 MR. 9 MR. 10 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: And at the11 end of the year, the consumer probably12 spends an extra hundred bucks or more --13 MR. 21 It stretches, but it was in a container22 that already serves the purpose. )2
Just5 anecdotally, we had to remove every street6 trashcan from the East Passyunk Avenue7 shopping district because we could not8 keep up with the amount of residents who9 are taking their own plastic bags after 910 or 10 o'clock at night and depositing11 their households trash in our sidewalk12 trashcans. So in an effort to keep the13 fountain of trash that emanates from these14 sidewalk containers, we had to actually15 remove them because they were more16 unsightly and more litter-prone than not17 having them, which is another conundrum I18 can't figure out.19 But, anyway, please identify20 yourself for the record.21
22 Good afternoon, Councilman. 2 We're a full-line distributor of3 food-service packaging and equipment,4 including plastic bags, paper bags, and5 reusable bags. 12 We have major concerns about the13 bills in front of you today. 20 Number one, eliminating plastic21 bags will terminate the current successful22 recycling programs in plastic bags that23 we've been doing for about a year-and-a-24 half to two years now. It will also25 140 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 eliminate the opportunity for Philadelphia2 residents to recycle their dry cleaning3 bags and newspaper bags, and eliminate the4 opportunity for area businesses to recycle5 stretch film that's used in delivering6 product to their stores throughout7 Philadelphia. 11 Second, by eliminating plastic12 bags, it would have an adverse effect on13 our relationship with Goodwill for our14 recycling program. Goodwill goes out15 every single days and collects plastic16 bags in and around the City of17 Philadelphia. We will have job losses18 because of a plastic bag ban. 8 By requiring the use of9 recyclable paper bags, you will increase10 the cost to retailers three- to fivefold11 and increase the cost to consumers12 purchasing products at the stores in13 Philadelphia. In addition, paper bags14 require tenfold the amount of warehouse15 space and transportation as do plastic16 bags. 21 By mandating the use of22 compostable bags at checkout, you're23 entering into an area where this product24 has not been proven successful in25 142 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 large-scale operations. 17 In addition, in order for18 compostable bags to be as strong as the19 current plastic bags, that require three20 times the amount of material -- and this21 was proven in San Francisco. Three times22 the amount of material, which increases23 operational costs and energy consumption24 for manufacturing of plastic bags25 143 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 But most important, requiring2 compostable bags in the City of3 Philadelphia really doesn't make a lot of4 sense. Philadelphia doesn't have any5 commercial composting operations. So, in6 effect, by offering or mandating7 compostable bags, you really have nowhere8 to place these bags. 15 You can't compost 'em 'cause you have no16 place to compost 'em, so you're going to17 add significant cost to retailers and18 consumers. And then you're going to end19 up carting the increased amount of20 material to your landfill21 So because of these reasons, we22 don't feel that either a bag tax or the23 use of compostable bags is the answer. We24 believe that our recycling program, which25 144 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 has continued to grow over the past two2 years and continued education to our3 supermarket customers on better bagging4 techniques and continuing creative ways of5 getting people to reuse their reusable6 bags more has a far better effect than7 giving a mandate on what people can and8 cannot do9 I'll give you an example of10 passing legislation versus using education11 to change consumer behavior. I collect12 plastic bags in Philadelphia, and I also13 collect plastic bags in New York. New14 York passed a mandatory law effective in15 July that everybody has to recycle plastic16 bags. 24 In Philadelphia, the savvy25 145 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 retailers embraced it and used it to their2 advantage to cut their costs and used3 creative marketing to go get their4 customers and the consumers to reuse5 plastic bags. So they have embraced it,6 and the market drives the programs, and7 they're much more successful than the8 mandates have been in the areas where I9 collect plastic bags10 So we're not in favor of these11 proposals. We agree that something has to12 be done. 24
Thank you25 146 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 for your testimony.2 Whoever is next, please identify3 yourself for the record.4
Good afternoon.5 My name is Tom Petitte. I represent6 Goodwill Industries.7 In lieu of time, I would be8 redundant, after what Mr. D'Antonio said.9 I'd just like to add one thing just for a10 point.11 In about the last 12 months, we12 have recycled 422,000 pounds of plastic13 bags just from a few of Penn Jersey14 Paper's customers.15 Thank you.16
Councilman17 DiCicco.18 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Thank you,19 Mr. Chairman.20 Good afternoon, sir. Where do21 you get your recycled material from?22
We have two23 service trucks that cover the City of24 Philadelphia and parts of southern New25 147 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 Jersey, where we go into the supermarkets2 that are customers of Penn Jersey Paper,3 and we capture the used plastic bags that4 customers deposit in the lobbies in the5 special containers.6 Then we take them back to my7 warehouse and we bail them into, like,8 thousand-pound bails. And then they're9 handled again by Penn Jersey Paper.10 And, eventually, they're turned11 into plastic products by the manufacturer12 of Trex, T-R-E-X.13 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: How much do14 you get for a ton? Does that vary?15
It's16 market-driven. It goes up and down every17 few months.18 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Average.19
About 10, 1223 cents a pound.24 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: And this25 148 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 stuff is being picked up by trucks -- pick2 up, travel around?3
Yes, sir, by4 Goodwill trucks and Goodwill employees.5 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Do actually6 see a -- I mean, at the end of the day,7 between gasoline, tolls, and --8
It's a break-even,9 if that's what you're asking.10 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Pardon me?11
It's a break-even12 for us, if that's what you're asking.13 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: But it does14 serve a purpose in keeping people occupied15 and training them to do things.16
Thank you19 for your testimony.20 Please identify yourself for the21 record.22
Thank you. I'm23 Randy St. John from the Pennsylvania Food24 Merchants Association. We represent about25 149 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 corporate members in the State of2 Pennsylvania, and we employ about 131,0003 people in the food industry, many of them4 here in Philadelphia.5 We certainly applaud the goals6 of all three of these bills -- more7 recycling and less litter. But we are8 concerned that the methods that these9 bills would employ will not have the10 consequences that you're hoping for; for11 example, the mandatory use of compostable12 plastic bags or recyclable paper bags, but13 only for supermarkets and pharmacies.14 But compostable plastic bags15 don't have anyplace to go in Philadelphia,16 so they're going -- to the unintended17 consequence would be that they're going to18 be landfilled, which is not what we all19 want.20 All stores that aren't21 supermarkets and pharmacies would be22 permitted to continue giving out23 recyclable plastic bags, as would dry24 cleaners, newspaper delivery folks, and25 150 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 big-box stores. And we fear that the2 unintended consequence of that would be3 that existing plastic bag recycling in all4 of the stores would be unintentionally5 contaminated by the compostable bags.6 And, furthermore, convenient7 plastic recycling programs in Philadelphia8 that Rocco just talked about that have9 been operating for years are going to10 cease to exist because there won't be an11 adequate supply to keep them going.12 Bill 090075 would impose an13 advance recovery of 25 cents on14 compostable bags. This would certainly15 reduce the use of plastic bags as16 consumers, we think, would probably revolt17 against paying the 25 cents, which is, I18 guess, what you hope, but it would also19 diminish the recycling programs for all of20 the plastic bags that are handed out by21 the retailers who aren't covered by22 collecting the fee. So we think that,23 ultimately, that would lead to less24 plastic recycling in Philadelphia.25 151 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 The polystyrene foam bill has a2 ceiling on it in terms of increasing costs3 for retailers. It wouldn't exceed4 10 percent but it might be 9.9 percent.5 And, again, we feel this is a hard time to6 be increasing the costs for anybody who7 does anything in Philadelphia.8 We think that we need to try to9 develop bills that will encourage and10 reward reducing the use of plastic bags in11 stores. We want to encourage the reuse of12 these bags. And, ultimately, we want to13 promote the recycling of all plastic bags.14 And we also need to work with Keep15 Philadelphia Beautiful to educate citizens16 about littering and develop stronger17 programs to enforce current litter laws.18 All of our members live in19 Philadelphia too, and we want the City to20 be as green and as clean and as21 litter-free as possible. And we'd like to22 continue to work with you two, who have23 done a wonderful job to shine the light on24 a problem that exists in Philadelphia. We25 152 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 probably haven't done as good a job as we2 should have, letting you know all of the3 things that the supermarket industry has4 been doing.5 So we would like to continue to6 work with you on these bills and hope that7 we can develop legislation that will bring8 about the consequences that we all want.9
Could you10 give me an example of some of the11 companies or types of businesses that your12 organization represents? I mean, I know13 the ShopRite 'cause I clearly know the14 brand.15
But could17 you give me some ideas of the types of18 businesses in Philadelphia that you would19 be representing?20
Sure. Acme,21 Pathmark, SuperFresh, ShopRite, Wawa,22 7-Eleven.23
Anything24 smaller or just kind of the --25 153 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751
Okay, all4 right.5 Part of the issue -- and we6 experienced the same frustration again7 anecdotally in our own neighborhood, where8 we had an Acme that was recycling. And as9 soon as we had the discussion two years10 ago relative to maybe doing this education11 recycling effort, soon after that, that12 particular Acme, which I believe a lot of13 them are individually owned, stopped14 recycling. So he's more (referring to15 Councilman DiCicco) -- he's more anal16 about it than I am, so he collects all his17 plastic bags and shows up at the Acme one18 day and looking for the bin, and they took19 it away.20 So, again, I'm not here to go21 over everything that didn't happen, but22 it's hard to imagine the kind of23 cooperation that's being suggested now24 when it was suggested then -- and not only25 154 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 did it happen -- I mean, I give you credit2 for the doing the things you're doing, but3 on the other hand, when I have large4 retailers like that who said they had it5 and then get rid of it, it's kind of a6 catch as catch can, and there's no real7 uniformity to it.8
We would9 certainly be happy to work with you to10 contact any of our members to encourage11 and promote recycling we would be happy to12 work with you to contact them.13
And even14 though it is in your opinion onerous,15 would you agree that the 25 cents bag fee16 would, in fact, very quickly change17 behavior?18
I think it would19 change behavior, but I think there's a --20
Despite what21 Mr. D'Antonio had talked about relative to22 that side of the business, but as far as23 actually taking a plastic bag into the24 supermarket, it probably would almost --25 155 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 it would cut it down pretty quick.2
I think it would3 change behavior, but I think one behavior4 that it would change would be the amount5 of anger and animosity that would be6 directed against you folks.7
I'll give11 you a good example. We were having a12 debate over the liquor-by-the-drink tax13 15, 16 years ago. And, of course, I was14 against that again because of these15 mom-and-pop bars who were going to go out16 of business and all the other stuff.17 And I got a call from a guy I18 know who owned a bar, and he said to me,19 "Did you pass that liquor-by-the-drink tax20 yet?" I said, "No, no. I'm not for21 that." He went, "No, no. Pass it, pass22 it." When I asked him why, he said,23 "'Cause I'm going to pick the dime up off24 the bar and blame you and put it in my25 156 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 pocket."2 (Laughter.)3
So, I mean,4 I think anger happens but, you know, I5 think that's a side when people get used6 to doing things differently, and I do7 recognize the transition period, I8 recognize the pushback in your clerks9 getting an earful from, you know, somebody10 who's going to tell 'em off. I recognize11 all of that but I -- and I do appreciate12 your testimony and willingness to work.13 Councilman DiCicco.14 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Yeah. My15 legislative assistant just e-mailed me --16 thank God for technology sometimes. He17 says if the fee leads to less recycling18 because there are fewer bags, why is that19 such a bad thing?20
I think you need21 to be concerned about all of the other22 sources that will be giving out bags,23 big-box retailers, dry cleaners, newspaper24 bags. They need to find their way to25 157 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 recycling.2 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Well,3 that -- my dry cleaner, I bring the4 plastic with the hanger back. He reuses5 the hanger and throws the plastic in the6 trash. So I now take the bag off and put7 it in with the other stuff that I'm going8 to bring to the one supermarket, which is9 about 12 blocks from where I live, that I10 normally drive to use, gas to get to, to11 rid of the plastic bags.12 I mean, you know, there's a13 bigger issue, I guess, when the chemical14 industry comes up and they'll talk about15 our dependency on fuel.16
Thank you17 very much for your testimony and for your18 patience in waiting.19
Shari21 Jackson, Anthony Rizzo, George Freiji and22 Scott Lilian.23 (Witnesses come forward.)24
Good25 158 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 afternoon. Who would ever like to start,2 please identify yourself for the record3 and proceed.4
Good afternoon.5 I'm Shari Jackson. I'm the Director of6 the Progressive Bag Affiliates of the7 American Chemistry Council. We represent8 the major bag manufacturers and resin9 suppliers of plastic bags. I have a10 major -- the major bag manufacturer in11 Pennsylvania representatives here with me12 today. They actually will provide a lot13 of useful, I think, information to you in14 terms of their bags and how they function15 in the environment and the economic impact16 that these bills will have on their17 operations.18 I just wanted to touch on a few19 things before I give them an opportunity20 to speak. First of all, we do share your21 concerns about litter and support the22 intent of what you're trying to get at23 here in reducing litter. We don't want to24 see our bags on the street, we don't want25 159 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 to see them littered, we don't want to see2 them in waterways. That's not where they3 should be; they should be recycled.4 And, second of all, I wanted to5 emphasize that our experience has been6 that in those areas where they have put in7 place bag bans and bag taxes, there have8 been unintended consequences, and, in a9 number of cases, they have not worked, and10 that's something should be considered.11 In the case of San Francisco,12 they imposed a ban in 2007 on bags. The13 goal was to reduce litter. They did a14 litter audit last year, which showed that15 it had not been the case. This was a ban16 on plastic bags only. So the litter of17 overall -- it switched to paper bags, and18 overall litter increased. It had no19 impact whatsoever on plastic bag litter,20 which was a small portion of the litter21 stream to begin with.22 We constantly cite here Ireland23 as a success. And while in Ireland, they24 did impose a bag tax, it did significantly25 160 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 reduce carryout bag use. The other thing2 you don't hear about it is, it increased3 the use of other plastic bags. Those bags4 that were being given out at carryout by5 retailers were no longer available for6 reuse by consumers.7 They were significantly reusing8 those bags for our household purposes, as9 they do in this country; over 90 percent10 of Americans do reuse those bags. They11 had to go out and buy other bags for that12 purpose. So it increased the use of other13 bags, which import data showed.14 Secondly -- well, thirdly,15 another point I need to emphasize here is16 that we've been working on this issue17 nationally in many jurisdictions for quite18 some time. We've discussed every kind of19 aspect of it -- whether bans would work,20 whether fees would work, whether recycling21 would work.22 We found out there is no silver23 bullet. It's -- this is a comprehensive24 approach -- well, it's a complex issue25 161 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 that requires a comprehensive approach is2 what we have found when we worked with3 jurisdictions all over the country in4 trying to deal with issue.5 No state has adopted a bag ban6 or tax. One jurisdiction, Seattle, did7 adopt a bag tax, the City Council did,8 that was over the objections of the9 citizens. They did a poll there, which10 showed the majority did not support a tax11 on bags and were doing the right thing:12 They were reusing and recycling those13 bags.14 This issue has now been put15 before the voters in August to decide on,16 and __17
Go ahead.20 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: You keep21 referring to this as "a tax."22
Well, a fee.23 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: It's a fee,24 all right?25 162 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751
Okay, that's fine.2 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: 'Cause3 tax --4 (Indiscernible; parties talking5 over each other.)6
-- the same7 result.8 But what I'm not hearing talked9 about here is the number of jurisdictions10 throughout the country that have adopted11 extra recycling programs for bags:12 California, New York State, Rhode Island,13 several jurisdictions, Chicago, New York14 City, several counties in New York, Red15 Bank, New Jersey, Tucson. Those are laws16 that they have adopted to provide for17 recycling. There are a number of other18 localities that are doing voluntary things19 to increase the use and recycling of bags.20 You're hearing here that21 recycling doesn't work; it does work. A22 total of 830 million pounds of plastic bag23 and film were recycled in 2007. According24 to the US EPA, there is -- recycling of25 163 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 plastic bags and film is 12 percent. We2 know more can be done, and should be done,3 but it's not that minimal rate you keep4 hearing about of 1 percent of bags that5 are being recycled.6
How many7 years have plastic-bag recycling programs8 been in place?9
They are -- it --10 overall in terms of an aggressive, you11 know, programs?12
They're relatively14 new. A number of stores have had them in15 place for years. The really aggressive16 approach, where there are bins, there's17 education, and those kinds of efforts,18 that's relatively new over the last couple19 of years.20
And how much21 of a reduction in plastic-bag production22 has been achieved as a result of23 recycling?24
The only place at25 164 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 this time -- 'cause, again, they are2 relatively new, programs haven't been in3 place for a long period. The only place4 where they put in place measures to5 benchmark results was Austin.6 And you heard earlier from7 Phoebe Coles. She gave you the 40 percent8 bag reduction, the 20 percent increase in9 recycling. Those were results of10 aggressive efforts there.11
So the15 companies that are making the plastic bags16 produce 40 percent less?17
No. The retailers18 bought 40 percent less bags as a result of19 this comprehensive reduce, reuse, recycle20 program that they put in place.21
But what22 percentage did the industry experience of23 the manufacturer of the bag in their24 production?25 165 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751
If you know.4 I mean, if you don't know, you don't know.5
My name is George13 Freiji. I'm a national account manager14 for Hilex. I've been in the business for15 24 years.16 I think there are two different17 issues. You're asking, because of18 recycling, how much less bags we produced.19 It's -- we're taking the recycled20 materials and putting it in the bags that21 we are producing.22
Let me just23 refine the question. What percentage of24 non-recycled bag production decrease did25 166 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 the industry experience as a result of2 aggressive recycle?3 'Cause if you're producing a bag4 that ultimately is going to be recycled,5 then you're not producing a new; bag6 you're producing a recycled bag.7
So there's9 got to be a reduction in the initial10 manufacturer of plastic bags if we have an11 aggressive recycling program, 'cause12 that's the purpose of it, is to put them13 back into the recycle stream and not make14 any more bags or make less bags.15
It's a -- the16 reduction is in raw materials that we buy17 and not necessarily in the number of bags18 that we make, because we take the recycled19 material, we replace virgin plastic with20 it. That's where the reduction is.21
It's a material24 reduction.25 167 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751
And do we2 have an idea what the percentage of that3 is? I mean, again, I'm asking questions4 that you don't know maybe off the top of5 your head.6
And, you know, I11 wanted to emphasize those points.12 I know here that there ever been13 efforts locally to work with groups like14 Keep America -- Keep Philly -- we do work15 with Keep America Beautiful, by the way,16 on their litter-reduction programs and17 have for a few years.18 But Keep Philadelphia Beautiful,19 the food merchants, Penn Jersey, they're20 the local efforts here to increase21 recycling. And we were remiss in not22 communicating with you about the things23 that have been going on over the past24 year, and some of which you heard, that25 168 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 were occurring as a result of the2 discussions you had last year, but --3
I'm sorry, the two12 years.13 So, I mean, that should have14 been communicated to you, what was going15 on, and we were remiss in doing that, but16 there were things that were going on.17
Do you have18 any idea, as a result of this aggressive19 recycling, the increase in recycled bags20 compared to what it was two years ago,21 when you started working with Philadelphia22 More Beautiful?23
I don't have that24 information.25 169 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751
'Cause that2 would be interesting to see what effect3 the recycling --4
That's a good11 question, a valid question.12 But to that point, the recycling13 issue, I just -- I wanted to highlight14 that, as an industry effort, the PBA has15 just launched an effort to -- it's a new16 initiative to increase the recycle17 contents in their bags to 40 percent by18 2015. This is closing the loop and a very19 aggressive effort on our part.20 It will drive the market demand21 for this material, but it is also taking a22 lot more of that post-consumer material23 and putting it back into bags and further24 reducing the reliance on virgin material.25 170 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 So this is a brand-new initiative underway2 that we're trying to work with the3 communities and states throughout the4 country to implement.5 When we do work with6 jurisdictions throughout country, we do7 try to work on a comprehensive approach to8 get at the litter issue. So we're not9 doing a one-size-fits-all. We kind of10 talk through what's needed, and we try to11 come up with a solution together as to12 what will work. And that's what we kind13 of dedicate our efforts to throughout the14 country.15 So I wanted to emphasize that,16 and I wanted to let you know, yeah,17 because we were remiss in not following18 up, there are things going on here; we'd19 like to expand on those things. We still20 do want to work with the Council to come21 up with something workable here in22 Philadelphia, so I would like to again23 offer that out as a something we would24 like to do.25 171 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 But I really also want you to2 hear from the representatives of Hilex3 Poly because -- unless you have questions4 of me, because, as I said, they really do5 have good information about what their6 operations do and the jobs impact of these7 particular bills.8 So I'll turn it over to them.9
Thank you10 very much.11 Please, whoever is next, please12 identify yourself for the record.13
My name is Anthony14 Rizzo. And I'm the vice president of15 sales for Hilex Poly.16 I'm going to do my best to try17 not to repeat a lot of the information18 that's come up, but I want to make certain19 that I circle back to some of the20 information that was suggested earlier.21 As evidenced by my suit, I do22 represent a large company, you know, one23 that has --24
It's a nice25 172 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 suit.2
5 It was previously suggested that6 this isn't about jobs; this is very much7 about jobs. 11 In a negative -- in a market12 with a negative conation, we're considered13 the market leaders in environmentally-14 friendly packaging solutions as they15 relate to plastic bags. 21 This company has changed significantly to22 the extent that we've invested over23 $20 million in a recycling facility24 dedicated to the recycling of plastic bags25 173 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 alone. 3 You asked the question a little4 bit earlier about roughly how much the5 reduction in bag -- how an aggressive6 recycling program is reflected in the7 reduction in bags. I'll put it in terms8 of reduction in virgin resin: It's north9 of 11 million pounds every year. 12 And it was suggested earlier13 also that the restaurant industry doesn't14 have large margins. A commodity-based15 plastic business certainly doesn't have16 large margins. 7 We understand that there's room8 to improve in terms of maximizing the9 benefits of products for consumers while10 also minimizing the impact of our product11 on the environment. And we've12 demonstrated our commitment to the13 environment in an almost counterintuitive14 way. 18 And when I say19 "counterintuitive," we're actually20 developing and supporting programs that21 reduce the usage of bag in the United22 States. 8 It's our belief that the focus9 on the future legislation should be10 focused on facilitating more robust11 recycling programs rather than solutions12 that will eliminate jobs in America. We13 strongly view a ban or a fee versus14 recycling as a major inconsistency with15 the current administration's view on16 domestic job creation. 18 We encourage you all to visit19 our website. 25 177 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751
Thank you2 very much for your testimony.3 Please identify yourself for the4 record.5
My name is George6 Freiji. I'm National Account Manager for7 Hilex Poly. 15 Producing plastic bags consumes16 70 percent less energy than producing17 paper bags. I know earlier they said a18 paper bag is not an issue. Yes, it is,19 because in places such as like San20 Francisco, where they banned plastic bags,21 the option now, the number-one option that22 everybody is going to is paper, not23 compostable bags. 25 178 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 This box here, how many bags do2 you think I have in this box? 5 How much room do you think 1,0006 paper bags will take out of this room7 here. 8 This box weighs 15 pounds. The9 equivalent number of paper bags will weigh10 140 pounds. 13 Now, when we start talking like14 this, we need to look at the entire supply15 chain, the entire supply chain. That16 means seven trucks are being loaded by17 forklifts, by forklift drivers. Those18 plants that are producing those trucks,19 they're getting seven times more material,20 and the chain goes on and on. 23 This is energy used, this is fuel. 3 Producing plastic bags requires4 97 percent less water. 8 If you look historically on9 paper plants, they're by rivers or big10 bodies of water -- lakes, ponds, so forth11 and so on -- because they require a lot of12 water usage. 22 When was the last time you and drove by a23 landfill and you saw a big hole because24 trash degraded? 25 180 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 Let's talk for a moment about2 compostable bags. What are compostable3 bags? You mentioned earlier that they4 have corn starch and potato starch and5 that kind of stuff in 'em. That is6 correct. They're regular plastic bags7 with corn starch in them. 10 So how do you maintain the11 integrity? You make the bag twice as12 thick -- minimum twice as thick, sometimes13 three times as thick. So what do you end14 up with? 22 Compostable bags -- compostable23 bags -- are not recommended for a home24 compost setup. 2 It has to be shipped to a specific3 location, and there aren't a lot of those4 locations in the country. 8 On average, compostable bags9 cost five times more. On average,10 compostable bags cost five times more than11 plastic bags. As I said, in San12 Francisco, when they banned plastic bags,13 there were very, very few compostable bags14 used -- very, very few. 16 And most importantly -- most17 importantly -- compostable bags are not18 recyclable. I mean, there were statements19 made before compostable recyclable; that's20 not true. Compostable bags are not21 recyclable. 24 Shari mentioned earlier that we25 182 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 as an industry recycled 830 million2 pounds, close to a billion pounds, of3 plastic. Now, why would anybody want to4 take a bag, put corn in it, make it two or5 three times heavier, and then make it6 disappear, when you can recycle it and use7 it over and over and over. 9 It makes sense to recycle. It10 uses the same material. 15 They end up in lawn furniture, if they16 don't end up in bags. We take ours and17 put 'em in bags. 22 All of the recycled plastic is23 used. 3 What about reusable bags? It's4 a myth to think -- most people think that5 reusable bags are cloth bags. 10 And most reusable bags, almost11 all of 'em, are made overseas, which again12 means US jobs. Again, you got to ship 'em13 all the way across the world to the United14 States; that takes energy. 18 And where are they made? 21 You all remember the toys scare we had22 last year and the paint and the ink we had23 before that, and the list goes on and on24 and on. 3 Most plastic bags -- this was4 mentioned earlier, I think you mentioned5 that, Mr. Kenney. Most plastic bags in6 the United States are not made out of oil;7 they are made out of natural gas. 10 And then the reusable bag cycle11 is eventually going to end. They're not12 recyclable, they're going to end up in13 landfills. 15 Not to mention, you take a bag16 home.
Who knows where it end up -- the17 trunk of the car, then it comes back to18 the store. 21 Let me say this. I'll bet right22 now if we surveyed this group, including23 the folks who are holding signs, you will24 find out that everybody that has grocery25 185 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 bags or plastic bags have a secondary use2 for it. 5 Some use it for your tissue cans and6 things of that nature. Some put people's7 kids' lunches in them. 9 I mean, there are a lot of uses10 for plastic bags. It's a myth to say that11 it's one-time use. 12 It gets used over and over many times. As13 a matter of fact, statistics would say14 that 60 percent of the bags are used over15 and over again. 18 Ireland was mentioned. 24 I stayed in a hotel. By the25 186 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 way, I live in Pennsylvania. I'm not -- I2 don't run across the country to testify3 for plastic bags, so this is my state. I4 stayed in a hotel here two blocks. 9 That's the kind of stuff that10 makes sense. 13 And, by the way, I did not see14 one plastic bag on the street, walking15 here. 16 What's the point? 23
Thank you24 very much for your testimony.25 187 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 Anyone else to testify?2 Please identify yourself for the3 record.4
My name is Scott8 Lilian. I am an extrusion manager in the9 Milesburg facility for Hilex Poly.10 I'm here representing the11 approximately 600 family members that12 would be impacted by this bill. These are13 hardworking family members that are14 Pennsylvania residents.15 The truth of the matter is,16 Philadelphia does not exist in a vacuum,17 and there are implications that this would18 have on these people.19 As stated earlier, this is a --20 a facility that employs 150 people. Over21 the past 20 years, we've paid out over22 $140 million in wages that goes to these23 employees and ultimately goes and supports24 the economy; not to mention over25 188 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 $70 million over that time spent has been2 provided to vendors and support people3 that help keep the plant up and running.4 In summary, Hilex has5 contributed over $225 million to the6 economy of Pennsylvania. This would all7 go away because we simply cannot8 manufacture a reusable bag in its form.9 I have brought with me three10 employees of that facility, and they care11 very much about the environment, so much12 so that we did bring with us one of -- a13 recycling bin that we do use to recycle14 plastic bags and make more bags out of.15 It is one of over 30,000 bins that are16 across the country, and that number17 continues to grow, aggressively trying to18 recoup these plastic bags and make more19 bags out of them.20 The company is very, very21 interested in recycling efforts, very22 environmentally-conscious. I -- I echo23 the sentiments that were made earlier that24 we do need to retrain the brain. I do25 189 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 think that it is possible to retrain us to2 recycle.3 Personally, I have not thrown a4 plastic bag away for over five years. I'm5 able to reuse them in many different ways.6 And those that do not get reused I bring7 to work with me, and we make more bags out8 of 'em.9
Do you have10 an idea as to what percentage of your11 sales is Philadelphia County?12
Out of our whole16 company, the Pennsylvania sales represent17 somewhere in the neighborhood between 1518 and 20 percent.19
No, as far20 as what is purchased by retailers and21 other users in Philadelphia.22
No, we don't have25 190 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 that information.2
We can name some of3 the users, the end-users, that are in4 Pennsylvania.5
The question6 is: I want to be able to determine based7 on your testimony what impact on the8 specific company Philadelphia legislation9 would have as far as the potential10 reduction in your orders for Philadelphia.11
Direct orders -- it12 would have direct orders, but you're13 setting a precedent also.14
No, okay.15 But I'm -- so, as I said before, with the16 polystyrene discussion we had at the17 beginning of the hearing, I'm not18 insensitive, we're not insensitive, to the19 employment issues relative to this. And20 in an effort to understand it and what21 extent it is, it would be interesting to22 know what percentage of potential loss of23 business a Philadelphia piece of24 legislation would have on your company.25 191 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751
Okay, thank4 you.5 Councilman DiCicco.6 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Yeah, thank7 you, Mr. Chairman.8 I don't know if this panel or9 somebody else could answer this question:10 In addition to arranging or setting up11 recycling programs and maybe educating12 people more better, does any money from13 the industry -- maybe it's the petroleum14 industry or whoever -- go into cleaning up15 the environment, that you know of, as it16 relates to the plastic bag manufacturing17 company?18
Yes. We are one19 of the founding members of the national20 Keep America Beautiful. We contribute21 significant funding to be involved in22 litter cleanup programs with them23 throughout the country.24 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Where I'm25 192 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 going is, we talk about this plastic soup2 out in the Pacific Ocean.3
Yeah, yeah.4 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: If a oil5 company were to have an oil spill, they6 would be fined significantly, and they7 would be required to clean it up.8 This industry -- not its9 intention -- has caused, and is causing,10 major environmental problems throughout11 the world. Is there any money that is12 going towards that effort to clean up the13 damage that has been done to our water14 ways and ocean?15
That's a great16 question, and it should be probably posed17 to petrochemical companies.18 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: That's why19 I asked. I didn't know if anyone on this20 panel could speak to this.21
Probably not suited22 to the people of this panel.23 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Okay.24
I mean, we're25 193 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 converters. We effectively convert2 material. We're not -- you know, we're3 not a petro chemical company.4 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: I'm sorry.5 Can you --6
We're a converting7 company. We convert plastic --8 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Yeah. I9 didn't know if it was this panel. I just10 wanted to get the question out there, and11 I'm sure somebody may have an answer to12 that.13 Because ultimately, the14 cleanup -- and let me just start by saying15 this: For me, this is all about trash,16 whether it's plastic trash, whether it's17 paper trash or any other form of trash.18 The trash in the City of Philadelphia and19 elsewhere is not just about plastic bags,20 I will readily admit that.21 It seems that we see more of22 that because it doesn't biodegrade. It23 just is always there, it never seems to go24 away.25 194 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751
It's more visible.2 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: And so, the3 gentleman there said he walked here from a4 hotel a couple of blocks away and didn't5 see any plastic bags. That's probably6 because of the special services district7 that is a nonprofit entity that cleans up8 Center City, and that hotel's within those9 boundaries.10 But you get outside of Center11 City, you can't walk without seeing bags.12 In an hour-and-a-half last Saturday13 afternoon, I picked up 12 plastic bags14 literally between my house and the two15 houses next door. We're rowhouses. I16 left the house, went shopping, came back,17 went someplace, came back, and I picked up18 a plastic bag and I also picked up paper19 mostly because of newspapers that have20 been distributed haphazardly.21 So there are other areas, which22 I think we're eventually going to get into23 when we talk about cleaning up our city24 and making it more green. Just yesterday,25 195 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 the Mayor announced that we have purchased2 500 solar-powered recycling trash3 compactors for the City of Philadelphia.4 That costs money. We hope that that will5 encourage more people -- it's a dual6 system. There's one for soiled paper and7 trash, and it's attached to another bin8 that is for recyclable materials --9 plastic cups, plastic bottles, what have10 you.11 So we're trying to not only keep12 our streets litter-free but educate people13 about the importance. And the hook on14 that is how much less -- how much less15 times that the Sanitation Department will16 have to go and empty those solar-powered17 trash compactors.18 We, on average in Center City,19 have to remove trash from the wire20 trashcans containers 19 times a week. Our21 hope is, by using the compactor, we will22 only have to do that five times a week.23 It's fuel, it's energy, it's a whole lot24 of things that save the consumers money.25 196 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 So, you guys may be the first2 guys who are on the hit list, for a better3 way of talking about it, but it's trash.4 And that's where I come from and we all5 are coming from. And it's, again, because6 primarily, it doesn't go away; we never7 not get to see it unless you remove it8 physically from your sidewalk and tree.9 And people just aren't as10 socially conscious generally about these11 things that some of us are. And our12 efforts start educating people as well.13 And we're doing our part, I think, as a14 city.15 So I just wanted to get that out16 there, that there are other issues related17 to trash, and it's not just plastic bags.18
And you're right.19 And we appreciate that. And that is one20 of the reasons why we are supporting21 financially the Keep Philadelphia22 Beautiful, to help the local efforts here23 to get at litter prevention and those24 kinds of things you're talking about.25 197 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 So, I mean, it's a start, you2 know.3 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: But --4
We know it's a big5 issue, we know that we need to get at it,6 but we're starting.7 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Not to8 sound --9
We don't have a10 panacea now.11 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Not to12 sound insensitive or being out of --13 mischaracterized as to what I'm about to14 say. If we didn't have that problem in15 the first place, we wouldn't have to be16 spending money to do all of that stuff.17
And that's true,18 but that involves people.19 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: And we need20 other alternatives. That's what this is21 about.22
And one of the23 alternatives we're putting forth is24 recycle-content bags. Again that is a25 198 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 more environmentally-friendly product,2 one. And, two, we do work with3 communities throughout the country to try4 to get at these issues.5 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: And I think6 if the industry had been paying a lot more7 attention to what we tried to talk about,8 as Councilman Kenney spoke about earlier,9 over these past two years, we may have10 been a lot further down that road to11 finding some agree -- to reaching some12 agreements.13 But nothing has changed. And14 some of the things, as Councilman Kenney15 talked about, we backed off, despite16 pressure from constituents to figure out a17 way to come up with alternatives. No one18 stepped up to the plate for two years.19
Well, as we20 mentioned earlier, there is a lot of21 recycling going on here from the stores,22 from Penn Jersey. There are things that23 are going on. These bags are being24 recycled; they're not being littered. So25 199 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 there are some things going on.2 Yeah, it's a problem, litter is3 a problem. We do need to do more to get4 at it. But to say that nothing is being5 done, that's just not completely accurate.6 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Thank you,7 Mr. Chairman.8
Ray Ehrlich,12 Terry Coyne, Kim Francovitch, and Jim13 O'Brien.14 (Witnesses come forward.)15
Good16 afternoon. Thanks for waiting. Please17 identify yourself for the record and18 proceed.19
20 My name is Kim Francovich. 25 200 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 I'm here to discuss and talk about Bill2 No. 3 You've got my written testimony;4 I'm not going to go through it. 8 Number one. I can sense the9 Council's frustration with the lack of10 industry support or industry initiative11 that they believe that they've experienced12 here in Philadelphia. 16 Solo Cup is a US-based17 manufacturer, and 90 percent of our18 products are made in the US. 21 We are in all substrates --22 paper and plastic. We are one of the23 first companies that use recycled-content24 paper in our products. We also have25 201 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 recycled content PET in our products. 8 So what does it take -- you said9 a number of times, Why don't we just10 switch? 24 With respect to end-of-life of25 202 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 our products, PET is a product that we use2 recycled content in. We use 20 percent3 recycled content. It's from water bottles4 and soda bottles. For our paper, we use5 10 to 20 percent recycled content. 7 Currently, right now,8 unfortunately, across the United States,9 those products are not accepted widely in10 blue bins and in facilities. 12 Here in the greater Philadelphia13 area, you do not accept our products in14 the blue bin for recycling. 19 Those compostable products have nowhere to20 go at the end of their life. They go21 right into the landfill right next to the22 polystyrene products that you're seeking23 to ban. They don't biodegrade and they24 don't decompose. 7 People are going to litter. 10 So where have we focused? We've11 focused on trying to educate people and12 get them to act responsibly with respect13 to our products. 18 I would encourage the Council to19 -- well, I guess I would say we're not20 very vocal about what we have been doing,21 and that's something that we'll take back,22 but we are doing things, and we are trying23 to move in a way that will be more24 considered environmentally-friendly. 4
Thank you,7 Mr. Chairman.8 And I appreciate -- the best9 part of this job is to hear different10 views and sometimes opposing views to11 learn from both sides on how to make12 responsible decisions as a government.13 A couple of questions. You were14 mentioning the cost of conversion and the15 time it takes in order for you to use16 biodegradable materials. Could you17 elaborate on that?18
Sure. We look19 at a variety -- we work with a variety of20 different -- like I said, different21 substrates.22 Last year, we added a type of23 line that allows us to use a different24 type of material. I'm not going to reveal25 205 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 the amount of the cost because it's2 competitive information, and my3 competitors are sitting here.4 But suffice it to say, it takes5 a lot of time and money to come up with6 the millions of dollars to reinvest and7 retool. When you change out, let's say,8 from a -- you don't just take a line and9 take it from a polystyrene line to a10 polyprope line. The material is handled11 differently. It requires different12 tooling. And so all of that takes time13 and energy and money.14 And so, when it seems like we're15 not moving quick enough or we're not16 changing, we are. We're facing our own17 economic struggles in trying to produce18 product that our customers will buy and19 that meets their specification as well as20 also to allow and change over in the new21 equipment, so it --22
It's not a24 "Okay, just do it tomorrow"; it's a25 206 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 long-term capital commitment by all of2 these companies.3
Without4 divulging industry secrets, are you saying5 that the materials that are biodegradable6 will cost more generally than -- and how7 much -- and who's done the analysis of8 that in your industry to --9
Could you12 please identify yourself for the record.13
I'm sorry, yes.14 Terry Coyne, with Pactiv Corporation.15 Generally what you see is that16 the cost of the materials are two to three17 times the cost of foam polystyrene; we use18 that as a base.19 And it's driven by two things.20 One is, the foam polystyrene is made of 9521 percent air and it's very lightweight, so22 it usually weighs two to three times less.23 And then top of (indiscernible), the24 sustainable materials that are out there25 207 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 are at a much higher price per pound than2 what you're paying for your basic3 polymers.4
And the other5 question I would have is: How long has6 this kind of legislation been in7 discussion since its inception so that8 you've had a heads-up to kind of know that9 this was coming? How long has this kind10 of been out there?11
In other15 jurisdictions, it's been longer. I'm sure16 in California --17
It's been four.18 The reason why I know that is, I started19 at Solo Cup Company when we first found20 the first ban legislation out in21 California. And so, I've been working on22 these issues for four years.23
So kind of,24 sort of you realize that the consumers out25 208 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 there are driving some of this as well,2 that they are calling for a greener3 environment. And so, four years to kind4 of think about it, how much more time5 would you need to --6
It's not the7 time to think about it. Just because you8 have one customer or five customers that9 say they're going to buy it, it doesn't10 mean that they will buy it. We do11 prototypes, we spend thousands and12 thousands of dollars, showing these to our13 customers, which are food-service14 operators, many of the restaurants here,15 to make sure that the product meets their16 specifications.17 Up until a couple of years ago,18 with respect to bio-resins, it couldn't19 withstand the heat, so you couldn't put20 hot foods in 'em. So for restaurants that21 want to serve hot food and get it to the22 customer, that was a problem. For hot23 cups, paper hot cups, they're lined with24 polyethylene. It's only been very25 209 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 recently that we've been able -- literally2 within the last couple of years -- to do a3 bio-based liner that would allow those4 compostable cups to be compostable. But,5 again, the compostable cups end up in the6 landfill because the compostable7 facilities don't exist.8 So we're trying to make9 products -- we're trying to make 'em in a10 mower environmentally and conscious way.11 But the end of life is not being12 addressed. You can make 'em but that13 doesn't mean you get the benefit of what14 they were intended to do.15
And then,16 finally, you talked about trash bins and17 how you're supporting recycling. Can you18 quantify that?19
We've donated,20 through associations, NGOs. And we've put21 hundreds of bins up and down the coast in22 California as well as in beaches and in23 national parks. We are working with24 street fairs and other places to have25 210 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 proper bins for collection of our2 materials.3
For example,4 for Philadelphia and the region, how much5 have you invested in recycling?6
Very good.7 We -- Solo personally has not donated bins8 in Philadelphia.9
Councilman11 DiCicco.12 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Thank you,13 Mr. Chair.14 I keep hearing from a number of15 witnesses that there are no bio-16 combustible facilities. Why is that?17
Well, I'll address18 that. This is Terry Coyne again, with19 Pactiv.20 A compost facility is no21 different than anything else. It takes a22 lot of investment and capital to do it and23 assets and expertise.24 You do have a number of compost25 211 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 facilities around here, but they2 specialize in organic waste, which is3 basically your yard waste. Some may take4 food, but to take containers and other5 compostable products, they have to have6 specialized facilities.7 I think you're probably aware,8 but in a compost, you have to have a9 constant temperature of 120 to 13010 degrees. You also have to have air piped11 in, as well as it has to be churned off.12 And so, these are multi-million-dollar13 facilities, and it's not something that14 easily can happen.15 So this is something you'd have16 to work with your waste haulers or private17 industry, because many of them do operate18 privately, to service your city.19 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: And I guess20 that brings me to what my next question21 was going to be, is that, if more products22 were produced that were bio-combustible23 materials, wouldn't that create an24 industry that we would have more of those25 212 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 facilities which, in turn, would create2 jobs? Because a lot of this has to do3 with job loss. And doesn't that make some4 business sense?5 And I'll just tie into that same6 question, with Obama Administration and7 what seems to be a much more aggressive8 approach to global warming and recycling9 and all those things, is there any10 stimulus money that you're aware of? Has11 anyone in the industry been lobbying12 Washington for those kind of dollars?13
First to your14 first point on whether more bio-resins15 will create more demand. Not necessarily.16 At the end of the day, the consumer has to17 actually want to use it, and it has to18 perform. If it doesn't perform, it costs19 more to transport it, to keep it at a20 certain temperature so it doesn't melt in21 the transporting process.22 No. I mean, if it costs more23 and it doesn't do what it's supposed to24 do, then no, it's not going to increase.25 213 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 With respect to your stimulus2 questions, we've been researching that.3 We have not seen any substantial amounts4 of money coming down that's geared toward5 composting or recycling. We are lobbying6 individually. That money is coming down7 through the state to try and get some of8 that with respect to a individual state.9 But, again, because every state10 and community legislates it differently,11 trying to get a policy across the nation12 that would actually support that type of13 infrastructure is very daunting. It's14 time-consuming, it's going to take time15 and effort.16 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Well,17 nothing's easy.18
No, I don't19 disagree. It's not that we're not trying;20 we are, but that doesn't happen in two to21 four years.22 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: There are a23 lot of representatives here who are being24 paid to be here and do their job. So, I25 214 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 mean, that's how it works. Sometimes2 government doesn't work as quickly as we3 would like it. We're very familiar with4 that.5
Well, an6 industry doesn't work as quickly as you'd7 like, so...8 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: And that's9 where it should come together.10
I agree.11 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: I mean,12 this is a heightened issue, has been13 around a lot of years, and it seems to be14 even more heightened especially because of15 our reliance on fuel.16 One of the previous witnesses17 mentioned about reusable bags will be18 produced in China, which means jobs out of19 this country, and then they'll have to20 ship those bags by way of cargo ships,21 which takes fuel.22 Well, we're shipping in fuel23 from the Middle East to produce a lot of24 different things, and that's kind of going25 215 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 to even itself out, I would think. But at2 the end of the day, it may mean that we're3 actually less reliant on foreign fuel.4 So it's not -- it's trash, it's5 a whole bunch of things that I look at6 this in a global sense, not just in a very7 minute, little way.8 Thank you.9
Thank you.10 Please identify yourself for the11 record. I'm sorry. Whoever is next,12 please identify yourself for the record.13
17 I'm in charge of emerging18 materials and sustainability for the19 Pactiv Corporation. 4 We do not make resins or own paper mills5 or aluminum mills. 12 We've looked at a variety of new13 materials, as we've discussed here before,14 and we even have them. 17 And what we're finding is, while18 these products are compostable, they have19 other limitations, as Kim mentioned20 before, where functionality and cost are a21 problem. 12 PLA again was touched on a lot13 and, again, a lot of these other ones,14 which, again, are corn-based. 23 We talked a little bit about24 composting already; I won't go through25 218 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 that again. But there are a variety of2 composters in the area. 5 And, finally, what I'd like to6 say is to the conventional paper product7 -- again, it's been touched on -- is it's8 polyethylene-coated. 13 So as far as future packaging --14 that's a lot of things that I work on15 every day -- again, there aren't any16 silver bullets. We're all working with17 companies that are small in nature. 23 Their supplies are limited because the24 demand hasn't been there. We -- again,25 219 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 we've been offering some of these products2 for over a couple of years. 10 The other thing is the11 end-of-life issues, as we've talked about,12 where, if you don't have a recycling or a13 composting process, you're going to have a14 problem with these materials. And that's15 what's caused a lot of frustration in16 California where there's a lot of these17 bans, where they have switched to18 compostable products but they're not19 available to them in their areas. 5 And as an industry, we're6 conducting a study because we actually7 believe that if something leads to the8 depth of the river, lake, or ocean, that9 actually nothing happens because to make10 something degrade requires heat and11 usually requires air. And if you get to12 the lower surfaces of, again, the lake or13 river or ocean, you're close to 4014 degrees, maybe even less than that, and15 that could present a problem. 19 I mean, we all talk about the dependency20 on oil. 4
Thank you5 very much for your testimony.6 Are there any questions?7 (No questions.)8
Seeing none,9 please identify yourself for the record.10
My name is Ray11 Erlich. I work for Dart Container12 Corporation. I'm a manager of government13 and environmental affairs for Dart, and I14 appreciate the opportunity to speak today.15 If you -- I don't know if anyone16 remembers, but I spoke also two years ago,17 when we testified on the same issue.18 I just would like to point out19 that, like my counterparts here, Dart is a20 leading manufacturer of a broad range of21 food-service items. We manufacture just22 plastic items, polystyrene, polyethylene,23 and polipropene.24 We're also recognized as an25 222 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 industry leader on the environmental side2 of things. We've had a department3 specifically charged with dealing with4 environmental affairs for over 20 years.5 The environmental issues are very much a6 part of what we do.7 Before I get into my comments, I8 have four brief points.9 I'd like to state that Dart does10 oppose any policy or any ban on safe and11 environmentally-sustainable products like12 foam, polystyrene food-service containers.13 And before I touch on my four14 points, to continue your -- or to answer15 your question, you know, Dart like, Pactiv16 and Solo, are major companies. And if17 there is a better mousetrap, we would make18 it.19 We're not in the business to --20 we're not married to polystyrene. We're21 in the business -- we're a for-profit22 company. We're in the business to make23 money. If there is a material or a24 product that we can sell and be a25 223 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 successful business, we'll do it.2 The fact of the matter is,3 bio-based or bio-plastic containers do not4 meet the three criteria that you need to5 have a successful food-service product.6 Number one, as was mentioned7 before, to make and produce and sell,8 they're more expensive.9 Number two, they don't do the10 job, they don't insulate as well, and they11 don't perform as well as existing12 products, polystyrene foam.13 And, number three, I can tell14 you from you our experience, our customers15 don't want these materials. Yes, there16 are individuals and groups and small17 pockets of people that are very interested18 in it; I think the idea is great. I think19 bio or compostable materials is a great20 idea.21 However, because of the lack of22 the infrastructure to compost these23 materials, you're asking someone, in24 essence, to pay more for a product that25 224 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 doesn't perform as well and is --2
I just need3 to interrupt you for a second 'cause4 that's not what that bill asks you to do.5 We're not asking anybody to pay any more.6 We're saying that -- we're not asking --7 (Indiscernible; parties talking8 over each other.)9
22 Dart -- and I'll finish on this23 point. Dart has a database of over 10024 companies and individuals that deal with25 225 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 bio-based products. 5 We have tested these materials,6 we have done prototypes, we have done7 everything you can imagine. 17 If the City of Philadelphia has a18 composting infrastructure, I think we19 would definitely have a completely20 different discussion. 22 My other quick points are,23 contrary to some statements that were made24 earlier, the fact of the matter is that25 226 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 bans do not reduce litter. 6 Of the 70 or so municipalities7 in the United States that have enacted8 polystyrene bans, only one has done a9 quantitative, a scientific study to find10 out if their ban actually achieved the11 goals that it was purported to do. 13 And as you heard earlier, I also included14 in my written a components. San Francisco15 found that it did exactly what we say: It16 did not reduce litter; all it did was17 change from polystyrene litter to paper18 cup litter, okay? 3 And, lastly, the other piece of4 evidence I'll offer is that the son of5 Jacques Cousteau, who is the founder of6 the California-based Oceans Future7 Society, wrote an editorial in 20058 stating the same thing, and I quote:9 "Bans don't work. "13 My second point is that, if14 passed -- switching gears. 23 Now, 15 percent does -- not may24 be not seem like a lot, but Philadelphia25 228 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 does not exist in a have a vacuum. These2 issue are -- you know, you can set a3 precedent. " If Philadelphia does5 pass this legislation, then you're going6 to see Wilmington, Delaware, and you're7 going to see Baltimore, and you're going8 to see Pittsburgh, and other cities say,9 Well, if Philadelphia did it, we're going10 to do it, regardless of whether we believe11 it's right or wrong. 17 And the last thing I'll on that18 is, you mentioned you received letters? 22 The third point -- and I'll be23 brief. I have two more points, that24 polystyrene -- I always wonder why25 229 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 polystyrene is picked on, so to speak. We2 are no different than any other food-3 service material. 7 While I'm not saying in any8 manner that we're as recyclable as9 newsprint or glass bottles or aluminum10 cans, but compare us -- make it relative11 to the other materials, the paper cup or12 the bio-based cup, the City of Los Angeles13 accepts polystyrene foam in their curbside14 blue-bin program, the City of Toronto15 added polystyrene-foam food-service their16 curbside program in December of 2008. 18 And while it's not -- like I19 said, it's difficult due to its20 lightweight and contamination with food21 and beverage, it is recyclable. Whereas,22 the alternative materials are not. So I'd23 like to make that point. 4 Now, I will say that we are not5 waste management. 12 And the last point I'll make has13 to do with the health and safety of our14 products. 20 Polythene foam containers have been in use21 for over 50 years. There has not been one22 documented case of anyone being harmed23 from using a polystyrene foam container in24 those 50 years, not one, okay? 2 The FDA allows us to use these3 materials in food service and has done for4 50 years. And the reason that you'll find5 styrene in human tissue is that it's a6 natural-occurring chemical. It's in the7 air we breathe, it's in strawberries and8 chocolate and coffee and beef. 13
Thank you,16 Mr. Chairman.17 I just want to say for the18 record that the members of this committee19 are keenly aware of your particular20 companies and particularly Pennsylvania-21 based companies. We do not view22 Philadelphia in a vacuum from our other23 counties.24 The Lancaster County is near and25 232 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 dear to my heart. I hope you hire some of2 the fine industrialists produced from3 Millersville University up there, which is4 a fine institution that trains5 industrialists. And so we're familiar6 with the 1700 folks.7 And I talked to members of this8 committee who don't want to hurt your9 business at all, but I'll ask the same10 question I asked the young lady: How much11 have you invested in Philadelphia's12 recycling program? And haven't you been13 made aware of this from sometime --14
And weren't19 you given opportunities to kind of20 participate?21
Yes. We're very22 aware. In fact, I did testify in 2007,23 when this issue came up before. And at24 that time, we were working with a25 233 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 commercial recycler of polystyrene foam2 food service. That recycler, while3 primarily active on the West Coast, at4 that time, had a pilot program in the New5 York City schools.6 Because of various reasons, that7 recycler did not turn out to be viable.8 So that essentially ended what we had9 thought in 2007 was going to be our way to10 work with Philadelphia to recycle.11 Dart itself, as I said, we've12 developed programs where we provide13 equipment, we pick up material, and we14 recycle polystyrene food service at15 institutions and large customers in select16 locations. And that's what we've come up17 with since then, so we have not been18 sitting idly by.19
Okay. I just20 want to say for the record that I don't21 know how our chairman wants to deal with22 this, but I think he's been very23 patient --24
-- in trying2 to encourage and incentivize recycling as3 an option. And what his frustration is,4 as we start to -- if the economy didn't5 fall, we probably -- I don't know, they6 may still would have been pushed this7 legislation, but in particular, in light8 of the fact that we're trying to balance9 our budget, we're trying to find quarters10 in couches and places, and we're at odds11 about paper clips and how much we use.12
When we start14 to look at what it costs us tonnage-wise15 to remove some of this material, it16 becomes a little higher on our radar17 screen, and that's what may be some of the18 reasons why he is feeling this way.19
I understand and I20 agree. And, like I said, if those21 products on your table there didn't end up22 in the same place as we sit today, as all23 of the other food-service products, then I24 would say yes, that's a great, you know,25 235 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 direction to go in.2 But right now, they do. So why3 penalize a product that's inexpensive,4 that employs a lot of people in this area.5 I'm just saying, don't look at polystyrene6 as an example. We should be looked as7 food service -- as all of the other8 food-service products.9
And we get10 it. I mean, we get it.11 But I want you to get is that12 sometimes -- and I'm the freshman here,13 these are my upper classmen, if you will.14 And sometimes when people come and say,15 We're going to participate in this, and16 don't do this over here. Don't move this,17 but we're going to do all of these18 wonderful things, they think we have a19 short memory.20 But there's a stenographer21 there.22
And they24 memorialize all of these comments,25 236 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 commitments, concerns. And every now and2 then, we go back to that record to see3 what people told this municipality by way4 of their good-faith effort.5
I hear what you're9 saying. And, again, I will close with10 while our first attempt at helping11 Philadelphia recycle polystyrene did not12 pan out, we have switched directions. We13 now have a new way of looking at things14 and doing things.15 And one thing I would like to16 close with is that we'd like to offer17 Dart's support and work with the City in18 our limited way, where we can do it, to19 help you recycle our products. And that20 would take, obviously, not passing this21 legislation and giving us an opportunity22 to work more with the City.23
Thank you,24 Mr. Chair.25 237 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751
Okay. We're2 just going to take a moment, just one3 moment. We have some housekeeping issues4 to deal with. You can testify as soon as5 we're done with our housekeeping issues.6 Councilwoman Reynolds-Brown was7 gracious enough to leave her Empowerment8 Seminar for Women, of course -- that goes9 unsaid. And she came over. So we want to10 thank her for doing that and we also just11 want to kind of get some amendment work12 done.13 So we're going to recess --14 we're going to temporarily recess the15 public hearing and we're to go into a16 public meeting.17
Yeah, I got a son4 getting son getting married tomorrow, and5 I got a reception dinner tonight.6
Okay.10 We're going into our public11 meeting. We have a quorum with12 Councilwoman Brown, Councilman DiCicco,13 Councilman Jones and Chairman Kenney.14 So I want to recognize15 Councilman DiCicco for a motion to amend16 Bill No. 090064.17 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Thank you,18 Mr. Chairman.19 I move that the amendment to20 Bill No. 090064 be approved.21 (Motion duly seconded.)22
It's been23 moved and seconded.24 All in favor, aye?25 239 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 There are none opposed. Bill2 No. 090064 will be amended accordingly,3 and that bill will be held to the call of4 the Chair.5 Bill No. 090074 will be held to6 the call of the Chair.7 The Chair recognizes Councilman8 DiCicco for a motion to amend Bill No.9 090075.10 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Thank you,11 Mr. Chairman.12 I move that the amendment to13 Bill No. 090075 be approved.14 (Motion duly seconded.)15
It's been16 moved and seconded.17 All in favor?18 There are none opposed.19 Bill No. 090075 will be amended20 accordingly.21 The Chair now recognizes22 Councilman DiCicco for a motion on the23 amended bill.24 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Thank you,25 240 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 Mr. Chairman.2 I move that Bill No. 090075, as3 amended, be reported out of this committee4 with a favorable recommendation and that5 the rules of Council be suspended so as to6 permit first reading at our next regular7 session of City Council.8 (Motion duly seconded.)9
It's been10 moved and seconded.11 All in favor Bill No. 090075, as12 amended, will be reported out of this13 committee with a favorable recommendation,14 and a request made for a rules suspension15 and offered for first reading at our next16 Council session.17 * * *18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 241 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751
We will now2 recess the public meeting and reconvene3 the public hearing.4 Please identify yourself for the5 record and proceed.6
Please8 identify yourself for the record and9 proceed.10
Please14 identify yourself for the record and15 proceed.16
Oh, I'm sorry.17 Jim O'Brien. I'm with a company called18 E.K. Lay. I'm a manufacture's19 representative here in Philadelphia.20 And it's a a little bit21 different. I'm a local guy, I went to22 local schools here in Philadelphia. My23 business is here in Philadelphia. We have24 an office up in Port Richmond. And it's25 242 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 different.2 I represent -- my company3 represents about ten different companies4 that are in the disposal business. And,5 Mr. Kenney, I heard you say earlier, you6 know, what's changed? Years ago, you7 know, we didn't go out to eat. Our8 parents made dinner, we ate home.9 And in our business -- and I've10 been doing it for 30 years -- people say11 what's changed? Everything has changed.12 When I got into the business, it was13 paper, and then it became plastic, and14 then there's all different types of15 plastic.16 And we're talking about here now17 polystyrene, which is the number 6. And18 polystyrene products, the finished19 product, looks different. I think20 everybody thinks polystyrene is the foam21 packaging.22 But it's also that cocktail23 glass, you know, that hard-plastic glass.24 It's also that soft plastic translucent25 243 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 cup. So there's an awful lot of different2 shapes that polystyrene package takes.3 My notes here -- and I think4 everybody cover it. You know, I look up5 at the screen and I see the trash there.6 That's not the manufacturers that we7 represent, that's not what they're all8 about.9 And, Mr. Kenney, you mentioned,10 you know, what have they done? What's11 been going on?12 I got a question on the13 recycling: Have we done enough on14 recycling? Is the City of Philadelphia15 really into recycling?16
And how about20 composting; are we moving forward with21 composting --22
-- at those sites?25 244 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751
Okay. Our4 manufacturers, the guys that we represent,5 the companies that we represent. What6 have they been doing? As I said, I7 represent about ten different companies.8 They've been doing a lot.9 There's a company, GenPack that10 makes polystyrene packaging. They make11 foam-hinged containers, the bad guys, but12 they've also introduced a product line13 called Harvest, which is biodegradable and14 compostable.15 Now I'm a local guy. I got a16 local company.17
Okay.25 245 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751
I'm a local guy, I2 make local calls. My company goes from3 Philly, Baltimore, Washington, down into4 the State of Virginia. And that's one of5 my products.6 And a lot of people say, Ooh,7 that's a good product. That product is a8 dual-material product. You can't recycle9 that because you can't separate the poly10 from the paper.11
Oh, it's Green17 Restaurant-endorsed. That's for people18 who have problems with plastic. That's19 for people who have problems with plastic.20 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Can I just21 interrupt you for a second? It says "made22 from recycled paperboard."23
Yes.24 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Does that25 246 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 mean you could only reuse it once as a2 recycled product?3
A disposal product4 is used once.5 And going back to Mr. Kenney,6 what you said --7
Well, if I8 had that in my house and had used it, I'd9 put it in the recycling bin.10
That is trash.13 That goes in the landfill. That's there14 forever.15
Because the18 environmentalists want three things: They19 want to reduce, they want to recycle, and20 they want to reuse.21
So if you25 247 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 put that stamp on there, they're happy.2
The Steven Starr6 group is happy. They wanted something7 different, they wanted something8 different.9
And I think, you11 know, in listening to everybody, and I12 listened to you folks, and I see a lot of13 confusion.14 What is polystyrene? What -- as15 I said, it comes in a lot of different16 shapes. I'm a local business guy.17
I came down here,19 I got a suit on, but I came down here on20 my own dime because I'm interested in my21 industry, my business, and my city.22 When I see the trash -- 346923 Belgrade, go up there.24
We've been25 248 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 there.2
It's terrible. I3 know you've been up there. It's terrible4 to see the trash that's up there. But5 that's not what our manufacturers are all6 about, they're not about that.7 That guy over there, that's a8 company called (indiscernible), that9 greenware cup. They're private guys, they10 did that on their own dime. That's a11 compostable biodegradable cup that you can12 compost.13 I watched the Eagles last year14 when they were touting that, saying they15 were recycled. You can't recycle that16 cup. That has to go only in a compost17 site.18 I make calls to people in19 Philadelphia, and they say, Is it20 compostable? I say, Do you have a compost21 site? No. Well, it's compostable, but22 you have to have a compost site.23 Now, what I've taken from you24 folks is that you're looking for more25 249 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 support from the manufacturing community2 on recycling and composting, and I'll3 bring that back. And if they haven't been4 doing that, they should be doing that, but5 they've been doing an awful lot, they6 really have been.7
Well,8 they're very quiet about it 'cause they9 don't tell anybody what they're doing.10 And we had --11
Let me13 finish.14 We had a whole set of hearings15 two years ago. I sat in an un -- in many16 meetings, more than I ever wanted to, in17 my own office and here, and was given vast18 assurances that we were going to have19 contact and progress. And it's two years20 later, and we don't.21 Now, I'm willing to listen22 again, as I said, or I would have moved23 that bill out of committee today. I held24 it out of respect for the people who work25 250 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 in the industry and the employees and2 other places in the State that produce it.3 However, I mean, how long do I4 have to hold my breath?5
I agree with you.6 I came here earlier this morning and see7 you guys just sitting there all day. I8 give you a lot of credit, and you got more9 patience than I would have.10 I'll take that back to the folks11 that we represent. And I think, you know,12 these guys are looking for somebody --13 what -- how did the meeting go? They're14 looking for somebody to help 'em. They're15 throwing a lot of money around in research16 and development on these products.17 That company there, Fabric18 (indiscernible), they're a styrene guy,19 but they came up with that greenware cup.20 I never thought it would fly. It's been21 very successful.22 We represent International23 Paper. They came up with a ecotainer,24 which is paper with a PLA insert. That's25 251 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 a good one. That's biodegradable and2 compostable.3 I make calls on people, for4 instance, up at Penn State. The first5 call up there, they wanted to do6 composting. They had no clue. You go7 back about a year later. The kids wanted8 them to do it. But they had to set the9 infrastructure up themselves with the10 trashcans trash. A year later, I came11 back, and they had their own trash12 haulers.13 So it's a difficult task for14 these guys, but it's the way to go.15 These manufacturers by and16 large, you know, I saw them, I watched17 them, I heard them talk today. You know,18 they got a lot at stake, and they're19 throwing a lot of their own money into the20 product.21 We represent a company called22 GenPack who started plastics. Again, that23 goes back into the 1980s. They were the24 only guys doing it, the only guys doing25 252 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 it. I was selling a foam hot dog2 container to Wawa; they threw me out and3 they went with that product there. They4 went with the worst product. There's5 nothing you can do with that except put it6 in a landfill. At least at that time, we7 were taking that hotdog container, and8 plastics again was trying to recycle it.9 They're making park benches, et cetera.10 So, you know, polystyrene in11 conclusion. And thanks. Appreciate it.12
Polystyrene,15 there's nothing wrong with the product.16 It's cheap, it's cheap, it works.17 When McDonald's threw 'em out a18 a couple of years ago, they had all kinds19 of problems with waste of their food.20 They couldn't keep the temperatures21 correct. They were throwing food out.22 In my notes, it talks about the23 operators and how they're wasting money24 because, you know, they have to move off25 253 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 of this product and that.2 I broke down your school bid,3 the City of Philadelphia school bid.4 Every year, 13,000 cases, 13,000 cases of5 those school trays, those 105s, that's6 6,500,000 school trays. By using7 polystyrene -- and these are hard facts.8 By using polystyrene, you save close to9 $300,000, and that's one item on that bid.10 Now, you wasn't switch that out11 because it's out of your budget, but12 that's not your answer either.13 We have to really work together.14 Banning is not the way to go. It's15 managing the material, it's recycling.16 And what I take from this17 meeting is that you do need some support18 from these manufacturers. And if they're19 going to make a go of it in Philadelphia,20 in this area, they're going to have to21 support you.22
Okay. Thank23 you very much. Thank you for your24 testimony.25 254 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751
The final4 panel is John Manning, Peter Blackett, and5 Mike Levy.6 (Witnesses come forward.)7
Good9 afternoon. Please identify yourself for10 the record.11
Yes. My name is12 Jack Manning. 16 Having been born and raised in17 the Philadelphia area, my passion for the18 City and the impact on my life is19 profound. My father worked for over 3020 years at one of the refineries along the21 Delaware River. My father-in-law worked22 right downtown, very close to here, at a23 printing and lithograph company for 4024 years, until it went out of business. 4 I have chosen to work in the5 chemical and plastics industry for the6 last 36 years, starting my career across7 the river, in South Jersey. It's an8 industry that I'm extremely proud to be a9 part of, not only because of the positive10 economic health and lifestyle benefits of11 our products, but because of the thousands12 of dedicated and talented coworkers that13 I've been privileged to work beside over14 these many years. 19 Our Beaver Valley plant20 currently employs about 275 people, of21 which about 170 are members of the United22 Steel Workers Local 1074. They have also23 sent a letter signed by Director John24 DeFazio of USW District 10 opposing the25 256 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 City Council Bill No. 2 We collectively stand in3 opposition to this bill because, among the4 products our Beaver Valley plant produces5 is expandable polystyrene. 2 The average age of our union3 employees is 50 average, their length of4 service is 17 years, with almost a quarter5 of them having dedicated over 25 years or6 more of working at our plant. 3 The impact on the local economy is4 significant, especially with statewide5 government revenues already running at a6 deficit. 25 259 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 I assure you, my wife and her2 friends didn't start this effort because I3 work in a chemical industry. They did so4 because we all take pride in our5 communities and neighborhoods. 10 Based on our experience, it is11 my personal belief that switching to12 compostable or biodegradable forms of food13 packaging will not discourage littering14 but will only serve to further encourage15 the practice by those who already litter,16 and they will think that it is acceptable17 to litter because it will eventually18 degrade over time. 11 But most importantly, it needs12 to be one that continues to provide13 sustainable incomes and jobs for the14 long-term prosperity and well-being of all15 of our citizens. 18 And that is why we also believe19 we are a part of the solution, not a part20 of the problem. 23 For the sake of our employees,24 our families, and consumers everywhere, I25 261 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 urge you to take a more pragmatic look and2 approach to the problem. 6 I truly appreciate the fact that7 you're not bringing this forward. 11 One of my wife's favorite12 sayings is from Gandhi, that you must13 become what you want to change. And it's14 apparent that your practice of recycling15 has been taken to the point that it's a16 great model for a lot of people. 18
And we19 appreciate your patience in waiting and20 your testimony and also make a comment to21 work with you to try to get to where we22 want to be.23
Please25 262 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 identify yourself for the record, sir.2
Sure. 3 I'm Mike Levy, with the Plastics4 Foodservice Packaging Group, and I5 represent a lot of these last two panel6 folks. 15 But I want to try to put this in16 perspective. You and I grew up in the17 same generation. I'm kind of looking at18 this, and you mentioned things were19 simpler. And it's true. 24 And if you think about it, you25 263 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 turn ahead 50 years like that, and where2 we are today is, not only are the issues3 more complex, but society has really4 changed everything. The fact that we have5 polystyrene and paperboard and compostable6 packaging is really a reflection of what's7 happening in society. 13 But the kind of packaging that's14 out there -- not just polystyrene foam,15 but a lot of plastics -- is there for a16 reason: It's sanitation. My grandmother17 ran a meat market in Brooklyn, and as a18 kid, I remember all of the meat that was19 wrapped up with the paper and the20 drippiness and we'd put the sawdust on the21 floor and everything else. 23 The fact that you've got24 polystyrene and things like that in the25 264 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 meat trays and the way they're wrapped, a2 lot of that is driven by sanitation. 6 But here's where I really want7 to go. And, again, I thank you for your8 patience, but when I said things are more9 complex, you made the comment about with10 the Obama Administration, yow know, and11 what about global warming and what about12 energy. Well, that's exactly -- I wish13 the kids were still here. 15 What old-timers like myself are16 learning is that when you start looking at17 all of these impacts -- you know, it takes18 raw materials to make anything, and I19 don't care if it's the things on your20 table or polystyrene or whatever. You're21 going to use energy, you're going to22 generate air pollution, water pollution,23 solid waste. 25 265 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 And I know the simple solution2 is just make it degradable and make it go3 away. We've learned, like everyone else,4 that everything's a trade-off and there's5 a lot of different things. If I told you6 right now that instead of the food-service7 product that we're using today, we're8 going to go to this new one and it's going9 to greenhouse gases significantly and10 increase energy and increase the amount of11 waste, 'cause it will be heavier, you're12 probably going to say, Well, wait a13 minute, you know, what about that? 15 So I'm not here to say, Gee, you16 ought to be banning everything else and17 promote polystyrene. 6 But on the recycling side, we7 also had set up with that recycler to do a8 charter school university. 12 As the market fell apart, that's13 put on hold. You heard Dart Container say14 they're going to make a commitment to beef15 that up. 2 So I want to leave you with that3 we do want to work with you. I also want4 to leave you that we would encourage5 you -- we just gave $10,000 over the last6 couple of months, six months, to Phoebe7 Coles in a detailed program to address all8 litter. None of the other materials has9 stepped up to do that. We would encourage10 you to do that to get real litter11 reduction. 14 And I think that Big Belly15 Program that you did is a real step in the16 right direction -- not just for recycling,17 but the fact that you've got now these18 containers that have a cover on them, and19 that's going to go a long way to reduce20 the amount of litter. 22 So I'll finally leave with you a23 thing that Pennsylvania has one of the24 highest recycling rates. And when you25 268 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 started that, you really pushed it forward2 with education. 7 So, again, we pledge to work8 with you. 10 Councilman Kenney had to take a11 personal break. 14
I just wanted to15 add one more thing. I'm a manufacturing16 guy and make things; that's what I've done17 for 35 years.18 And when I hear statements about19 industry needs to adapt or people need to20 realize their jobs are going away and they21 can get another job, doing something else,22 that's really easy to say, but if you're23 someone who's in their mid-50s and they've24 work 35 years at a particular plant,25 269 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 making a good product, it's not exactly2 something you want to hear any more than3 the auto guys want to hear, Well, we'll4 just convert over to something else, and5 you'll find another job someplace else.6 So I just wanted to kind of add7 that statement.8 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: I9 understand and I respect that.10 I was a businessman myself -- in11 the restaurant business, of all things --12 and I understand the challenges. I don't13 think there's any of us who don't14 understand those challenges.15 But you got to begin somewhere.16 And, you know, we tried two years ago to17 get this conversation going. As18 Councilman Kenney said, we had numerous19 meetings outside of these chambers, in our20 offices, and it really -- unless somebody21 can show me different, the ball never22 advanced from then.23 So the frustration builds up, we24 got trash problems. As Councilman Jones25 270 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 said, we're trying to figure out some ways2 in which we can get a budget done here and3 reduce our costs across the board. Trash4 is a big chunk of our budget. And5 recycling and other things like that may6 help us get our numbers down.7 And I understand what you're8 saying, sir. I mean, for every action,9 there's a reaction. Everything that we do10 --11
I think with what12 we're doing with KPB, it should be a13 signal that that's going to help an awful14 lot on the litter side, and it's going to15 help you on the waste reduction, so --16 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: We17 recognize that, and as Councilman --18 that's why he's holding up the bills. And19 we have some time to work this out.20 Thank you. Thank you all for21 coming in.22 Is there anybody else who wishes23 to testify?24 (No response.)25 271 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Seeing2 none, this concludes the public meeting on3 the Environmental Committee. Thank you4 all for your patience and for coming out5 on a Friday. We appreciate it.6 (Proceedings end at 2:57 p.m.)7 * * *8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 272 C E R T I F I C A T E2 I HEREBY CERTIFY that the4 proceedings of the City of Philadelphia5 Council Committee on the Environment are6 contained fully and accurately in the7 stenographic notes taken by me on Friday,8 May 1, 2009, and that this is a true and9 correct statement of same.10 11 12 13 14 15 __________________________________ 16 JOSEPHINE CARDILLO Registered Professional Reporter17 18 19 20 (The foregoing certification of21 this transcript does not apply to any22 reproduction of the same by any means, unless23 under the direct control and/or supervision of24 the certifying reporter.)25