I'll give11 you a good example. We were having a12 debate over the liquor-by-the-drink tax13 15, 16 years ago. And, of course, I was14 against that again because of these15 mom-and-pop bars who were going to go out16 of business and all the other stuff.17 And I got a call from a guy I18 know who owned a bar, and he said to me,19 "Did you pass that liquor-by-the-drink tax20 yet?" I said, "No, no. I'm not for21 that." He went, "No, no. Pass it, pass22 it." When I asked him why, he said,23 "'Cause I'm going to pick the dime up off24 the bar and blame you and put it in my25 156 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 pocket."2 (Laughter.)3
So, I mean,4 I think anger happens but, you know, I5 think that's a side when people get used6 to doing things differently, and I do7 recognize the transition period, I8 recognize the pushback in your clerks9 getting an earful from, you know, somebody10 who's going to tell 'em off. I recognize11 all of that but I -- and I do appreciate12 your testimony and willingness to work.13 Councilman DiCicco.14 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Yeah. My15 legislative assistant just e-mailed me --16 thank God for technology sometimes. He17 says if the fee leads to less recycling18 because there are fewer bags, why is that19 such a bad thing?20
I think you need21 to be concerned about all of the other22 sources that will be giving out bags,23 big-box retailers, dry cleaners, newspaper24 bags. They need to find their way to25 157 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 recycling.2 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Well,3 that -- my dry cleaner, I bring the4 plastic with the hanger back. He reuses5 the hanger and throws the plastic in the6 trash. So I now take the bag off and put7 it in with the other stuff that I'm going8 to bring to the one supermarket, which is9 about 12 blocks from where I live, that I10 normally drive to use, gas to get to, to11 rid of the plastic bags.12 I mean, you know, there's a13 bigger issue, I guess, when the chemical14 industry comes up and they'll talk about15 our dependency on fuel.16
Thank you17 very much for your testimony and for your18 patience in waiting.19
Shari21 Jackson, Anthony Rizzo, George Freiji and22 Scott Lilian.23 (Witnesses come forward.)24
Good25 158 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 afternoon. Who would ever like to start,2 please identify yourself for the record3 and proceed.4
Good afternoon.5 I'm Shari Jackson. I'm the Director of6 the Progressive Bag Affiliates of the7 American Chemistry Council. We represent8 the major bag manufacturers and resin9 suppliers of plastic bags. I have a10 major -- the major bag manufacturer in11 Pennsylvania representatives here with me12 today. They actually will provide a lot13 of useful, I think, information to you in14 terms of their bags and how they function15 in the environment and the economic impact16 that these bills will have on their17 operations.18 I just wanted to touch on a few19 things before I give them an opportunity20 to speak. First of all, we do share your21 concerns about litter and support the22 intent of what you're trying to get at23 here in reducing litter. We don't want to24 see our bags on the street, we don't want25 159 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 to see them littered, we don't want to see2 them in waterways. That's not where they3 should be; they should be recycled.4 And, second of all, I wanted to5 emphasize that our experience has been6 that in those areas where they have put in7 place bag bans and bag taxes, there have8 been unintended consequences, and, in a9 number of cases, they have not worked, and10 that's something should be considered.11 In the case of San Francisco,12 they imposed a ban in 2007 on bags. The13 goal was to reduce litter. They did a14 litter audit last year, which showed that15 it had not been the case. This was a ban16 on plastic bags only. So the litter of17 overall -- it switched to paper bags, and18 overall litter increased. It had no19 impact whatsoever on plastic bag litter,20 which was a small portion of the litter21 stream to begin with.22 We constantly cite here Ireland23 as a success. And while in Ireland, they24 did impose a bag tax, it did significantly25 160 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 reduce carryout bag use. The other thing2 you don't hear about it is, it increased3 the use of other plastic bags. Those bags4 that were being given out at carryout by5 retailers were no longer available for6 reuse by consumers.7 They were significantly reusing8 those bags for our household purposes, as9 they do in this country; over 90 percent10 of Americans do reuse those bags. They11 had to go out and buy other bags for that12 purpose. So it increased the use of other13 bags, which import data showed.14 Secondly -- well, thirdly,15 another point I need to emphasize here is16 that we've been working on this issue17 nationally in many jurisdictions for quite18 some time. We've discussed every kind of19 aspect of it -- whether bans would work,20 whether fees would work, whether recycling21 would work.22 We found out there is no silver23 bullet. It's -- this is a comprehensive24 approach -- well, it's a complex issue25 161 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 that requires a comprehensive approach is2 what we have found when we worked with3 jurisdictions all over the country in4 trying to deal with issue.5 No state has adopted a bag ban6 or tax. One jurisdiction, Seattle, did7 adopt a bag tax, the City Council did,8 that was over the objections of the9 citizens. They did a poll there, which10 showed the majority did not support a tax11 on bags and were doing the right thing:12 They were reusing and recycling those13 bags.14 This issue has now been put15 before the voters in August to decide on,16 and __17
Go ahead.20 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: You keep21 referring to this as "a tax."22
Well, a fee.23 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: It's a fee,24 all right?25 162 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751
Okay, that's fine.2 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: 'Cause3 tax --4 (Indiscernible; parties talking5 over each other.)6
-- the same7 result.8 But what I'm not hearing talked9 about here is the number of jurisdictions10 throughout the country that have adopted11 extra recycling programs for bags:12 California, New York State, Rhode Island,13 several jurisdictions, Chicago, New York14 City, several counties in New York, Red15 Bank, New Jersey, Tucson. Those are laws16 that they have adopted to provide for17 recycling. There are a number of other18 localities that are doing voluntary things19 to increase the use and recycling of bags.20 You're hearing here that21 recycling doesn't work; it does work. A22 total of 830 million pounds of plastic bag23 and film were recycled in 2007. According24 to the US EPA, there is -- recycling of25 163 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 plastic bags and film is 12 percent. We2 know more can be done, and should be done,3 but it's not that minimal rate you keep4 hearing about of 1 percent of bags that5 are being recycled.6
How many7 years have plastic-bag recycling programs8 been in place?9
They are -- it --10 overall in terms of an aggressive, you11 know, programs?12
They're relatively14 new. A number of stores have had them in15 place for years. The really aggressive16 approach, where there are bins, there's17 education, and those kinds of efforts,18 that's relatively new over the last couple19 of years.20
And how much21 of a reduction in plastic-bag production22 has been achieved as a result of23 recycling?24
The only place at25 164 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 this time -- 'cause, again, they are2 relatively new, programs haven't been in3 place for a long period. The only place4 where they put in place measures to5 benchmark results was Austin.6 And you heard earlier from7 Phoebe Coles. She gave you the 40 percent8 bag reduction, the 20 percent increase in9 recycling. Those were results of10 aggressive efforts there.11
So the15 companies that are making the plastic bags16 produce 40 percent less?17
No. The retailers18 bought 40 percent less bags as a result of19 this comprehensive reduce, reuse, recycle20 program that they put in place.21
But what22 percentage did the industry experience of23 the manufacturer of the bag in their24 production?25 165 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751
If you know.4 I mean, if you don't know, you don't know.5
My name is George13 Freiji. I'm a national account manager14 for Hilex. I've been in the business for15 24 years.16 I think there are two different17 issues. You're asking, because of18 recycling, how much less bags we produced.19 It's -- we're taking the recycled20 materials and putting it in the bags that21 we are producing.22
Let me just23 refine the question. What percentage of24 non-recycled bag production decrease did25 166 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 the industry experience as a result of2 aggressive recycle?3 'Cause if you're producing a bag4 that ultimately is going to be recycled,5 then you're not producing a new; bag6 you're producing a recycled bag.7
So there's9 got to be a reduction in the initial10 manufacturer of plastic bags if we have an11 aggressive recycling program, 'cause12 that's the purpose of it, is to put them13 back into the recycle stream and not make14 any more bags or make less bags.15
It's a -- the16 reduction is in raw materials that we buy17 and not necessarily in the number of bags18 that we make, because we take the recycled19 material, we replace virgin plastic with20 it. That's where the reduction is.21
It's a material24 reduction.25 167 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751
And do we2 have an idea what the percentage of that3 is? I mean, again, I'm asking questions4 that you don't know maybe off the top of5 your head.6
And, you know, I11 wanted to emphasize those points.12 I know here that there ever been13 efforts locally to work with groups like14 Keep America -- Keep Philly -- we do work15 with Keep America Beautiful, by the way,16 on their litter-reduction programs and17 have for a few years.18 But Keep Philadelphia Beautiful,19 the food merchants, Penn Jersey, they're20 the local efforts here to increase21 recycling. And we were remiss in not22 communicating with you about the things23 that have been going on over the past24 year, and some of which you heard, that25 168 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 were occurring as a result of the2 discussions you had last year, but --3
I'm sorry, the two12 years.13 So, I mean, that should have14 been communicated to you, what was going15 on, and we were remiss in doing that, but16 there were things that were going on.17
Do you have18 any idea, as a result of this aggressive19 recycling, the increase in recycled bags20 compared to what it was two years ago,21 when you started working with Philadelphia22 More Beautiful?23
I don't have that24 information.25 169 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751
'Cause that2 would be interesting to see what effect3 the recycling --4
That's a good11 question, a valid question.12 But to that point, the recycling13 issue, I just -- I wanted to highlight14 that, as an industry effort, the PBA has15 just launched an effort to -- it's a new16 initiative to increase the recycle17 contents in their bags to 40 percent by18 2015. This is closing the loop and a very19 aggressive effort on our part.20 It will drive the market demand21 for this material, but it is also taking a22 lot more of that post-consumer material23 and putting it back into bags and further24 reducing the reliance on virgin material.25 170 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 So this is a brand-new initiative underway2 that we're trying to work with the3 communities and states throughout the4 country to implement.5 When we do work with6 jurisdictions throughout country, we do7 try to work on a comprehensive approach to8 get at the litter issue. So we're not9 doing a one-size-fits-all. We kind of10 talk through what's needed, and we try to11 come up with a solution together as to12 what will work. And that's what we kind13 of dedicate our efforts to throughout the14 country.15 So I wanted to emphasize that,16 and I wanted to let you know, yeah,17 because we were remiss in not following18 up, there are things going on here; we'd19 like to expand on those things. We still20 do want to work with the Council to come21 up with something workable here in22 Philadelphia, so I would like to again23 offer that out as a something we would24 like to do.25 171 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 But I really also want you to2 hear from the representatives of Hilex3 Poly because -- unless you have questions4 of me, because, as I said, they really do5 have good information about what their6 operations do and the jobs impact of these7 particular bills.8 So I'll turn it over to them.9
Thank you10 very much.11 Please, whoever is next, please12 identify yourself for the record.13
My name is Anthony14 Rizzo. And I'm the vice president of15 sales for Hilex Poly.16 I'm going to do my best to try17 not to repeat a lot of the information18 that's come up, but I want to make certain19 that I circle back to some of the20 information that was suggested earlier.21 As evidenced by my suit, I do22 represent a large company, you know, one23 that has --24
It's a nice25 172 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 suit.2
5 It was previously suggested that6 this isn't about jobs; this is very much7 about jobs. 11 In a negative -- in a market12 with a negative conation, we're considered13 the market leaders in environmentally-14 friendly packaging solutions as they15 relate to plastic bags. 21 This company has changed significantly to22 the extent that we've invested over23 $20 million in a recycling facility24 dedicated to the recycling of plastic bags25 173 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 alone. 3 You asked the question a little4 bit earlier about roughly how much the5 reduction in bag -- how an aggressive6 recycling program is reflected in the7 reduction in bags. I'll put it in terms8 of reduction in virgin resin: It's north9 of 11 million pounds every year. 12 And it was suggested earlier13 also that the restaurant industry doesn't14 have large margins. A commodity-based15 plastic business certainly doesn't have16 large margins. 7 We understand that there's room8 to improve in terms of maximizing the9 benefits of products for consumers while10 also minimizing the impact of our product11 on the environment. And we've12 demonstrated our commitment to the13 environment in an almost counterintuitive14 way. 18 And when I say19 "counterintuitive," we're actually20 developing and supporting programs that21 reduce the usage of bag in the United22 States. 8 It's our belief that the focus9 on the future legislation should be10 focused on facilitating more robust11 recycling programs rather than solutions12 that will eliminate jobs in America. We13 strongly view a ban or a fee versus14 recycling as a major inconsistency with15 the current administration's view on16 domestic job creation. 18 We encourage you all to visit19 our website. 25 177 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751
Thank you2 very much for your testimony.3 Please identify yourself for the4 record.5
My name is George6 Freiji. I'm National Account Manager for7 Hilex Poly. 15 Producing plastic bags consumes16 70 percent less energy than producing17 paper bags. I know earlier they said a18 paper bag is not an issue. Yes, it is,19 because in places such as like San20 Francisco, where they banned plastic bags,21 the option now, the number-one option that22 everybody is going to is paper, not23 compostable bags. 25 178 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 This box here, how many bags do2 you think I have in this box? 5 How much room do you think 1,0006 paper bags will take out of this room7 here. 8 This box weighs 15 pounds. The9 equivalent number of paper bags will weigh10 140 pounds. 13 Now, when we start talking like14 this, we need to look at the entire supply15 chain, the entire supply chain. That16 means seven trucks are being loaded by17 forklifts, by forklift drivers. Those18 plants that are producing those trucks,19 they're getting seven times more material,20 and the chain goes on and on. 23 This is energy used, this is fuel. 3 Producing plastic bags requires4 97 percent less water. 8 If you look historically on9 paper plants, they're by rivers or big10 bodies of water -- lakes, ponds, so forth11 and so on -- because they require a lot of12 water usage. 22 When was the last time you and drove by a23 landfill and you saw a big hole because24 trash degraded? 25 180 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 Let's talk for a moment about2 compostable bags. What are compostable3 bags? You mentioned earlier that they4 have corn starch and potato starch and5 that kind of stuff in 'em. That is6 correct. They're regular plastic bags7 with corn starch in them. 10 So how do you maintain the11 integrity? You make the bag twice as12 thick -- minimum twice as thick, sometimes13 three times as thick. So what do you end14 up with? 22 Compostable bags -- compostable23 bags -- are not recommended for a home24 compost setup. 2 It has to be shipped to a specific3 location, and there aren't a lot of those4 locations in the country. 8 On average, compostable bags9 cost five times more. On average,10 compostable bags cost five times more than11 plastic bags. As I said, in San12 Francisco, when they banned plastic bags,13 there were very, very few compostable bags14 used -- very, very few. 16 And most importantly -- most17 importantly -- compostable bags are not18 recyclable. I mean, there were statements19 made before compostable recyclable; that's20 not true. Compostable bags are not21 recyclable. 24 Shari mentioned earlier that we25 182 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 as an industry recycled 830 million2 pounds, close to a billion pounds, of3 plastic. Now, why would anybody want to4 take a bag, put corn in it, make it two or5 three times heavier, and then make it6 disappear, when you can recycle it and use7 it over and over and over. 9 It makes sense to recycle. It10 uses the same material. 15 They end up in lawn furniture, if they16 don't end up in bags. We take ours and17 put 'em in bags. 22 All of the recycled plastic is23 used. 3 What about reusable bags? It's4 a myth to think -- most people think that5 reusable bags are cloth bags. 10 And most reusable bags, almost11 all of 'em, are made overseas, which again12 means US jobs. Again, you got to ship 'em13 all the way across the world to the United14 States; that takes energy. 18 And where are they made? 21 You all remember the toys scare we had22 last year and the paint and the ink we had23 before that, and the list goes on and on24 and on. 3 Most plastic bags -- this was4 mentioned earlier, I think you mentioned5 that, Mr. Kenney. Most plastic bags in6 the United States are not made out of oil;7 they are made out of natural gas. 10 And then the reusable bag cycle11 is eventually going to end. They're not12 recyclable, they're going to end up in13 landfills. 15 Not to mention, you take a bag16 home.
Who knows where it end up -- the17 trunk of the car, then it comes back to18 the store. 21 Let me say this. I'll bet right22 now if we surveyed this group, including23 the folks who are holding signs, you will24 find out that everybody that has grocery25 185 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 bags or plastic bags have a secondary use2 for it. 5 Some use it for your tissue cans and6 things of that nature. Some put people's7 kids' lunches in them. 9 I mean, there are a lot of uses10 for plastic bags. It's a myth to say that11 it's one-time use. 12 It gets used over and over many times. As13 a matter of fact, statistics would say14 that 60 percent of the bags are used over15 and over again. 18 Ireland was mentioned. 24 I stayed in a hotel. By the25 186 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 way, I live in Pennsylvania. I'm not -- I2 don't run across the country to testify3 for plastic bags, so this is my state. I4 stayed in a hotel here two blocks. 9 That's the kind of stuff that10 makes sense. 13 And, by the way, I did not see14 one plastic bag on the street, walking15 here. 16 What's the point? 23
Thank you24 very much for your testimony.25 187 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 Anyone else to testify?2 Please identify yourself for the3 record.4
My name is Scott8 Lilian. I am an extrusion manager in the9 Milesburg facility for Hilex Poly.10 I'm here representing the11 approximately 600 family members that12 would be impacted by this bill. These are13 hardworking family members that are14 Pennsylvania residents.15 The truth of the matter is,16 Philadelphia does not exist in a vacuum,17 and there are implications that this would18 have on these people.19 As stated earlier, this is a --20 a facility that employs 150 people. Over21 the past 20 years, we've paid out over22 $140 million in wages that goes to these23 employees and ultimately goes and supports24 the economy; not to mention over25 188 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 $70 million over that time spent has been2 provided to vendors and support people3 that help keep the plant up and running.4 In summary, Hilex has5 contributed over $225 million to the6 economy of Pennsylvania. This would all7 go away because we simply cannot8 manufacture a reusable bag in its form.9 I have brought with me three10 employees of that facility, and they care11 very much about the environment, so much12 so that we did bring with us one of -- a13 recycling bin that we do use to recycle14 plastic bags and make more bags out of.15 It is one of over 30,000 bins that are16 across the country, and that number17 continues to grow, aggressively trying to18 recoup these plastic bags and make more19 bags out of them.20 The company is very, very21 interested in recycling efforts, very22 environmentally-conscious. I -- I echo23 the sentiments that were made earlier that24 we do need to retrain the brain. I do25 189 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 think that it is possible to retrain us to2 recycle.3 Personally, I have not thrown a4 plastic bag away for over five years. I'm5 able to reuse them in many different ways.6 And those that do not get reused I bring7 to work with me, and we make more bags out8 of 'em.9
Do you have10 an idea as to what percentage of your11 sales is Philadelphia County?12
Out of our whole16 company, the Pennsylvania sales represent17 somewhere in the neighborhood between 1518 and 20 percent.19
No, as far20 as what is purchased by retailers and21 other users in Philadelphia.22
No, we don't have25 190 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 that information.2
We can name some of3 the users, the end-users, that are in4 Pennsylvania.5
The question6 is: I want to be able to determine based7 on your testimony what impact on the8 specific company Philadelphia legislation9 would have as far as the potential10 reduction in your orders for Philadelphia.11
Direct orders -- it12 would have direct orders, but you're13 setting a precedent also.14
No, okay.15 But I'm -- so, as I said before, with the16 polystyrene discussion we had at the17 beginning of the hearing, I'm not18 insensitive, we're not insensitive, to the19 employment issues relative to this. And20 in an effort to understand it and what21 extent it is, it would be interesting to22 know what percentage of potential loss of23 business a Philadelphia piece of24 legislation would have on your company.25 191 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751
Okay, thank4 you.5 Councilman DiCicco.6 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Yeah, thank7 you, Mr. Chairman.8 I don't know if this panel or9 somebody else could answer this question:10 In addition to arranging or setting up11 recycling programs and maybe educating12 people more better, does any money from13 the industry -- maybe it's the petroleum14 industry or whoever -- go into cleaning up15 the environment, that you know of, as it16 relates to the plastic bag manufacturing17 company?18
Yes. We are one19 of the founding members of the national20 Keep America Beautiful. We contribute21 significant funding to be involved in22 litter cleanup programs with them23 throughout the country.24 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Where I'm25 192 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 going is, we talk about this plastic soup2 out in the Pacific Ocean.3
Yeah, yeah.4 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: If a oil5 company were to have an oil spill, they6 would be fined significantly, and they7 would be required to clean it up.8 This industry -- not its9 intention -- has caused, and is causing,10 major environmental problems throughout11 the world. Is there any money that is12 going towards that effort to clean up the13 damage that has been done to our water14 ways and ocean?15
That's a great16 question, and it should be probably posed17 to petrochemical companies.18 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: That's why19 I asked. I didn't know if anyone on this20 panel could speak to this.21
Probably not suited22 to the people of this panel.23 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Okay.24
I mean, we're25 193 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 converters. We effectively convert2 material. We're not -- you know, we're3 not a petro chemical company.4 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: I'm sorry.5 Can you --6
We're a converting7 company. We convert plastic --8 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Yeah. I9 didn't know if it was this panel. I just10 wanted to get the question out there, and11 I'm sure somebody may have an answer to12 that.13 Because ultimately, the14 cleanup -- and let me just start by saying15 this: For me, this is all about trash,16 whether it's plastic trash, whether it's17 paper trash or any other form of trash.18 The trash in the City of Philadelphia and19 elsewhere is not just about plastic bags,20 I will readily admit that.21 It seems that we see more of22 that because it doesn't biodegrade. It23 just is always there, it never seems to go24 away.25 194 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751
It's more visible.2 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: And so, the3 gentleman there said he walked here from a4 hotel a couple of blocks away and didn't5 see any plastic bags. That's probably6 because of the special services district7 that is a nonprofit entity that cleans up8 Center City, and that hotel's within those9 boundaries.10 But you get outside of Center11 City, you can't walk without seeing bags.12 In an hour-and-a-half last Saturday13 afternoon, I picked up 12 plastic bags14 literally between my house and the two15 houses next door. We're rowhouses. I16 left the house, went shopping, came back,17 went someplace, came back, and I picked up18 a plastic bag and I also picked up paper19 mostly because of newspapers that have20 been distributed haphazardly.21 So there are other areas, which22 I think we're eventually going to get into23 when we talk about cleaning up our city24 and making it more green. Just yesterday,25 195 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 the Mayor announced that we have purchased2 500 solar-powered recycling trash3 compactors for the City of Philadelphia.4 That costs money. We hope that that will5 encourage more people -- it's a dual6 system. There's one for soiled paper and7 trash, and it's attached to another bin8 that is for recyclable materials --9 plastic cups, plastic bottles, what have10 you.11 So we're trying to not only keep12 our streets litter-free but educate people13 about the importance. And the hook on14 that is how much less -- how much less15 times that the Sanitation Department will16 have to go and empty those solar-powered17 trash compactors.18 We, on average in Center City,19 have to remove trash from the wire20 trashcans containers 19 times a week. Our21 hope is, by using the compactor, we will22 only have to do that five times a week.23 It's fuel, it's energy, it's a whole lot24 of things that save the consumers money.25 196 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 So, you guys may be the first2 guys who are on the hit list, for a better3 way of talking about it, but it's trash.4 And that's where I come from and we all5 are coming from. And it's, again, because6 primarily, it doesn't go away; we never7 not get to see it unless you remove it8 physically from your sidewalk and tree.9 And people just aren't as10 socially conscious generally about these11 things that some of us are. And our12 efforts start educating people as well.13 And we're doing our part, I think, as a14 city.15 So I just wanted to get that out16 there, that there are other issues related17 to trash, and it's not just plastic bags.18
And you're right.19 And we appreciate that. And that is one20 of the reasons why we are supporting21 financially the Keep Philadelphia22 Beautiful, to help the local efforts here23 to get at litter prevention and those24 kinds of things you're talking about.25 197 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 So, I mean, it's a start, you2 know.3 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: But --4
We know it's a big5 issue, we know that we need to get at it,6 but we're starting.7 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Not to8 sound --9
We don't have a10 panacea now.11 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Not to12 sound insensitive or being out of --13 mischaracterized as to what I'm about to14 say. If we didn't have that problem in15 the first place, we wouldn't have to be16 spending money to do all of that stuff.17
And that's true,18 but that involves people.19 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: And we need20 other alternatives. That's what this is21 about.22
And one of the23 alternatives we're putting forth is24 recycle-content bags. Again that is a25 198 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 more environmentally-friendly product,2 one. And, two, we do work with3 communities throughout the country to try4 to get at these issues.5 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: And I think6 if the industry had been paying a lot more7 attention to what we tried to talk about,8 as Councilman Kenney spoke about earlier,9 over these past two years, we may have10 been a lot further down that road to11 finding some agree -- to reaching some12 agreements.13 But nothing has changed. And14 some of the things, as Councilman Kenney15 talked about, we backed off, despite16 pressure from constituents to figure out a17 way to come up with alternatives. No one18 stepped up to the plate for two years.19
Well, as we20 mentioned earlier, there is a lot of21 recycling going on here from the stores,22 from Penn Jersey. There are things that23 are going on. These bags are being24 recycled; they're not being littered. So25 199 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 there are some things going on.2 Yeah, it's a problem, litter is3 a problem. We do need to do more to get4 at it. But to say that nothing is being5 done, that's just not completely accurate.6 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Thank you,7 Mr. Chairman.8
Ray Ehrlich,12 Terry Coyne, Kim Francovitch, and Jim13 O'Brien.14 (Witnesses come forward.)15
Good16 afternoon. Thanks for waiting. Please17 identify yourself for the record and18 proceed.19
20 My name is Kim Francovich. 25 200 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 I'm here to discuss and talk about Bill2 No. 3 You've got my written testimony;4 I'm not going to go through it. 8 Number one. I can sense the9 Council's frustration with the lack of10 industry support or industry initiative11 that they believe that they've experienced12 here in Philadelphia. 16 Solo Cup is a US-based17 manufacturer, and 90 percent of our18 products are made in the US. 21 We are in all substrates --22 paper and plastic. We are one of the23 first companies that use recycled-content24 paper in our products. We also have25 201 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 recycled content PET in our products. 8 So what does it take -- you said9 a number of times, Why don't we just10 switch? 24 With respect to end-of-life of25 202 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 our products, PET is a product that we use2 recycled content in. We use 20 percent3 recycled content. It's from water bottles4 and soda bottles. For our paper, we use5 10 to 20 percent recycled content. 7 Currently, right now,8 unfortunately, across the United States,9 those products are not accepted widely in10 blue bins and in facilities. 12 Here in the greater Philadelphia13 area, you do not accept our products in14 the blue bin for recycling. 19 Those compostable products have nowhere to20 go at the end of their life. They go21 right into the landfill right next to the22 polystyrene products that you're seeking23 to ban. They don't biodegrade and they24 don't decompose. 7 People are going to litter. 10 So where have we focused? We've11 focused on trying to educate people and12 get them to act responsibly with respect13 to our products. 18 I would encourage the Council to19 -- well, I guess I would say we're not20 very vocal about what we have been doing,21 and that's something that we'll take back,22 but we are doing things, and we are trying23 to move in a way that will be more24 considered environmentally-friendly. 4
Thank you,7 Mr. Chairman.8 And I appreciate -- the best9 part of this job is to hear different10 views and sometimes opposing views to11 learn from both sides on how to make12 responsible decisions as a government.13 A couple of questions. You were14 mentioning the cost of conversion and the15 time it takes in order for you to use16 biodegradable materials. Could you17 elaborate on that?18
Sure. We look19 at a variety -- we work with a variety of20 different -- like I said, different21 substrates.22 Last year, we added a type of23 line that allows us to use a different24 type of material. I'm not going to reveal25 205 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 the amount of the cost because it's2 competitive information, and my3 competitors are sitting here.4 But suffice it to say, it takes5 a lot of time and money to come up with6 the millions of dollars to reinvest and7 retool. When you change out, let's say,8 from a -- you don't just take a line and9 take it from a polystyrene line to a10 polyprope line. The material is handled11 differently. It requires different12 tooling. And so all of that takes time13 and energy and money.14 And so, when it seems like we're15 not moving quick enough or we're not16 changing, we are. We're facing our own17 economic struggles in trying to produce18 product that our customers will buy and19 that meets their specification as well as20 also to allow and change over in the new21 equipment, so it --22
It's not a24 "Okay, just do it tomorrow"; it's a25 206 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 long-term capital commitment by all of2 these companies.3
Without4 divulging industry secrets, are you saying5 that the materials that are biodegradable6 will cost more generally than -- and how7 much -- and who's done the analysis of8 that in your industry to --9
Could you12 please identify yourself for the record.13
I'm sorry, yes.14 Terry Coyne, with Pactiv Corporation.15 Generally what you see is that16 the cost of the materials are two to three17 times the cost of foam polystyrene; we use18 that as a base.19 And it's driven by two things.20 One is, the foam polystyrene is made of 9521 percent air and it's very lightweight, so22 it usually weighs two to three times less.23 And then top of (indiscernible), the24 sustainable materials that are out there25 207 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 are at a much higher price per pound than2 what you're paying for your basic3 polymers.4
And the other5 question I would have is: How long has6 this kind of legislation been in7 discussion since its inception so that8 you've had a heads-up to kind of know that9 this was coming? How long has this kind10 of been out there?11
In other15 jurisdictions, it's been longer. I'm sure16 in California --17
It's been four.18 The reason why I know that is, I started19 at Solo Cup Company when we first found20 the first ban legislation out in21 California. And so, I've been working on22 these issues for four years.23
So kind of,24 sort of you realize that the consumers out25 208 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 there are driving some of this as well,2 that they are calling for a greener3 environment. And so, four years to kind4 of think about it, how much more time5 would you need to --6
It's not the7 time to think about it. Just because you8 have one customer or five customers that9 say they're going to buy it, it doesn't10 mean that they will buy it. We do11 prototypes, we spend thousands and12 thousands of dollars, showing these to our13 customers, which are food-service14 operators, many of the restaurants here,15 to make sure that the product meets their16 specifications.17 Up until a couple of years ago,18 with respect to bio-resins, it couldn't19 withstand the heat, so you couldn't put20 hot foods in 'em. So for restaurants that21 want to serve hot food and get it to the22 customer, that was a problem. For hot23 cups, paper hot cups, they're lined with24 polyethylene. It's only been very25 209 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 recently that we've been able -- literally2 within the last couple of years -- to do a3 bio-based liner that would allow those4 compostable cups to be compostable. But,5 again, the compostable cups end up in the6 landfill because the compostable7 facilities don't exist.8 So we're trying to make9 products -- we're trying to make 'em in a10 mower environmentally and conscious way.11 But the end of life is not being12 addressed. You can make 'em but that13 doesn't mean you get the benefit of what14 they were intended to do.15
And then,16 finally, you talked about trash bins and17 how you're supporting recycling. Can you18 quantify that?19
We've donated,20 through associations, NGOs. And we've put21 hundreds of bins up and down the coast in22 California as well as in beaches and in23 national parks. We are working with24 street fairs and other places to have25 210 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 proper bins for collection of our2 materials.3
For example,4 for Philadelphia and the region, how much5 have you invested in recycling?6
Very good.7 We -- Solo personally has not donated bins8 in Philadelphia.9
Councilman11 DiCicco.12 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Thank you,13 Mr. Chair.14 I keep hearing from a number of15 witnesses that there are no bio-16 combustible facilities. Why is that?17
Well, I'll address18 that. This is Terry Coyne again, with19 Pactiv.20 A compost facility is no21 different than anything else. It takes a22 lot of investment and capital to do it and23 assets and expertise.24 You do have a number of compost25 211 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 facilities around here, but they2 specialize in organic waste, which is3 basically your yard waste. Some may take4 food, but to take containers and other5 compostable products, they have to have6 specialized facilities.7 I think you're probably aware,8 but in a compost, you have to have a9 constant temperature of 120 to 13010 degrees. You also have to have air piped11 in, as well as it has to be churned off.12 And so, these are multi-million-dollar13 facilities, and it's not something that14 easily can happen.15 So this is something you'd have16 to work with your waste haulers or private17 industry, because many of them do operate18 privately, to service your city.19 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: And I guess20 that brings me to what my next question21 was going to be, is that, if more products22 were produced that were bio-combustible23 materials, wouldn't that create an24 industry that we would have more of those25 212 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 facilities which, in turn, would create2 jobs? Because a lot of this has to do3 with job loss. And doesn't that make some4 business sense?5 And I'll just tie into that same6 question, with Obama Administration and7 what seems to be a much more aggressive8 approach to global warming and recycling9 and all those things, is there any10 stimulus money that you're aware of? Has11 anyone in the industry been lobbying12 Washington for those kind of dollars?13
First to your14 first point on whether more bio-resins15 will create more demand. Not necessarily.16 At the end of the day, the consumer has to17 actually want to use it, and it has to18 perform. If it doesn't perform, it costs19 more to transport it, to keep it at a20 certain temperature so it doesn't melt in21 the transporting process.22 No. I mean, if it costs more23 and it doesn't do what it's supposed to24 do, then no, it's not going to increase.25 213 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 With respect to your stimulus2 questions, we've been researching that.3 We have not seen any substantial amounts4 of money coming down that's geared toward5 composting or recycling. We are lobbying6 individually. That money is coming down7 through the state to try and get some of8 that with respect to a individual state.9 But, again, because every state10 and community legislates it differently,11 trying to get a policy across the nation12 that would actually support that type of13 infrastructure is very daunting. It's14 time-consuming, it's going to take time15 and effort.16 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Well,17 nothing's easy.18
No, I don't19 disagree. It's not that we're not trying;20 we are, but that doesn't happen in two to21 four years.22 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: There are a23 lot of representatives here who are being24 paid to be here and do their job. So, I25 214 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 mean, that's how it works. Sometimes2 government doesn't work as quickly as we3 would like it. We're very familiar with4 that.5
Well, an6 industry doesn't work as quickly as you'd7 like, so...8 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: And that's9 where it should come together.10
I agree.11 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: I mean,12 this is a heightened issue, has been13 around a lot of years, and it seems to be14 even more heightened especially because of15 our reliance on fuel.16 One of the previous witnesses17 mentioned about reusable bags will be18 produced in China, which means jobs out of19 this country, and then they'll have to20 ship those bags by way of cargo ships,21 which takes fuel.22 Well, we're shipping in fuel23 from the Middle East to produce a lot of24 different things, and that's kind of going25 215 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 to even itself out, I would think. But at2 the end of the day, it may mean that we're3 actually less reliant on foreign fuel.4 So it's not -- it's trash, it's5 a whole bunch of things that I look at6 this in a global sense, not just in a very7 minute, little way.8 Thank you.9
Thank you.10 Please identify yourself for the11 record. I'm sorry. Whoever is next,12 please identify yourself for the record.13
17 I'm in charge of emerging18 materials and sustainability for the19 Pactiv Corporation. 4 We do not make resins or own paper mills5 or aluminum mills. 12 We've looked at a variety of new13 materials, as we've discussed here before,14 and we even have them. 17 And what we're finding is, while18 these products are compostable, they have19 other limitations, as Kim mentioned20 before, where functionality and cost are a21 problem. 12 PLA again was touched on a lot13 and, again, a lot of these other ones,14 which, again, are corn-based. 23 We talked a little bit about24 composting already; I won't go through25 218 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 that again. But there are a variety of2 composters in the area. 5 And, finally, what I'd like to6 say is to the conventional paper product7 -- again, it's been touched on -- is it's8 polyethylene-coated. 13 So as far as future packaging --14 that's a lot of things that I work on15 every day -- again, there aren't any16 silver bullets. We're all working with17 companies that are small in nature. 23 Their supplies are limited because the24 demand hasn't been there. We -- again,25 219 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 we've been offering some of these products2 for over a couple of years. 10 The other thing is the11 end-of-life issues, as we've talked about,12 where, if you don't have a recycling or a13 composting process, you're going to have a14 problem with these materials. And that's15 what's caused a lot of frustration in16 California where there's a lot of these17 bans, where they have switched to18 compostable products but they're not19 available to them in their areas. 5 And as an industry, we're6 conducting a study because we actually7 believe that if something leads to the8 depth of the river, lake, or ocean, that9 actually nothing happens because to make10 something degrade requires heat and11 usually requires air. And if you get to12 the lower surfaces of, again, the lake or13 river or ocean, you're close to 4014 degrees, maybe even less than that, and15 that could present a problem. 19 I mean, we all talk about the dependency20 on oil. 4
Thank you5 very much for your testimony.6 Are there any questions?7 (No questions.)8
Seeing none,9 please identify yourself for the record.10
My name is Ray11 Erlich. I work for Dart Container12 Corporation. I'm a manager of government13 and environmental affairs for Dart, and I14 appreciate the opportunity to speak today.15 If you -- I don't know if anyone16 remembers, but I spoke also two years ago,17 when we testified on the same issue.18 I just would like to point out19 that, like my counterparts here, Dart is a20 leading manufacturer of a broad range of21 food-service items. We manufacture just22 plastic items, polystyrene, polyethylene,23 and polipropene.24 We're also recognized as an25 222 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 industry leader on the environmental side2 of things. We've had a department3 specifically charged with dealing with4 environmental affairs for over 20 years.5 The environmental issues are very much a6 part of what we do.7 Before I get into my comments, I8 have four brief points.9 I'd like to state that Dart does10 oppose any policy or any ban on safe and11 environmentally-sustainable products like12 foam, polystyrene food-service containers.13 And before I touch on my four14 points, to continue your -- or to answer15 your question, you know, Dart like, Pactiv16 and Solo, are major companies. And if17 there is a better mousetrap, we would make18 it.19 We're not in the business to --20 we're not married to polystyrene. We're21 in the business -- we're a for-profit22 company. We're in the business to make23 money. If there is a material or a24 product that we can sell and be a25 223 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 successful business, we'll do it.2 The fact of the matter is,3 bio-based or bio-plastic containers do not4 meet the three criteria that you need to5 have a successful food-service product.6 Number one, as was mentioned7 before, to make and produce and sell,8 they're more expensive.9 Number two, they don't do the10 job, they don't insulate as well, and they11 don't perform as well as existing12 products, polystyrene foam.13 And, number three, I can tell14 you from you our experience, our customers15 don't want these materials. Yes, there16 are individuals and groups and small17 pockets of people that are very interested18 in it; I think the idea is great. I think19 bio or compostable materials is a great20 idea.21 However, because of the lack of22 the infrastructure to compost these23 materials, you're asking someone, in24 essence, to pay more for a product that25 224 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 doesn't perform as well and is --2
I just need3 to interrupt you for a second 'cause4 that's not what that bill asks you to do.5 We're not asking anybody to pay any more.6 We're saying that -- we're not asking --7 (Indiscernible; parties talking8 over each other.)9
22 Dart -- and I'll finish on this23 point. Dart has a database of over 10024 companies and individuals that deal with25 225 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 bio-based products. 5 We have tested these materials,6 we have done prototypes, we have done7 everything you can imagine. 17 If the City of Philadelphia has a18 composting infrastructure, I think we19 would definitely have a completely20 different discussion. 22 My other quick points are,23 contrary to some statements that were made24 earlier, the fact of the matter is that25 226 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 bans do not reduce litter. 6 Of the 70 or so municipalities7 in the United States that have enacted8 polystyrene bans, only one has done a9 quantitative, a scientific study to find10 out if their ban actually achieved the11 goals that it was purported to do. 13 And as you heard earlier, I also included14 in my written a components. San Francisco15 found that it did exactly what we say: It16 did not reduce litter; all it did was17 change from polystyrene litter to paper18 cup litter, okay? 3 And, lastly, the other piece of4 evidence I'll offer is that the son of5 Jacques Cousteau, who is the founder of6 the California-based Oceans Future7 Society, wrote an editorial in 20058 stating the same thing, and I quote:9 "Bans don't work. "13 My second point is that, if14 passed -- switching gears. 23 Now, 15 percent does -- not may24 be not seem like a lot, but Philadelphia25 228 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 does not exist in a have a vacuum. These2 issue are -- you know, you can set a3 precedent. " If Philadelphia does5 pass this legislation, then you're going6 to see Wilmington, Delaware, and you're7 going to see Baltimore, and you're going8 to see Pittsburgh, and other cities say,9 Well, if Philadelphia did it, we're going10 to do it, regardless of whether we believe11 it's right or wrong. 17 And the last thing I'll on that18 is, you mentioned you received letters? 22 The third point -- and I'll be23 brief. I have two more points, that24 polystyrene -- I always wonder why25 229 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 polystyrene is picked on, so to speak. We2 are no different than any other food-3 service material. 7 While I'm not saying in any8 manner that we're as recyclable as9 newsprint or glass bottles or aluminum10 cans, but compare us -- make it relative11 to the other materials, the paper cup or12 the bio-based cup, the City of Los Angeles13 accepts polystyrene foam in their curbside14 blue-bin program, the City of Toronto15 added polystyrene-foam food-service their16 curbside program in December of 2008. 18 And while it's not -- like I19 said, it's difficult due to its20 lightweight and contamination with food21 and beverage, it is recyclable. Whereas,22 the alternative materials are not. So I'd23 like to make that point. 4 Now, I will say that we are not5 waste management. 12 And the last point I'll make has13 to do with the health and safety of our14 products. 20 Polythene foam containers have been in use21 for over 50 years. There has not been one22 documented case of anyone being harmed23 from using a polystyrene foam container in24 those 50 years, not one, okay? 2 The FDA allows us to use these3 materials in food service and has done for4 50 years. And the reason that you'll find5 styrene in human tissue is that it's a6 natural-occurring chemical. It's in the7 air we breathe, it's in strawberries and8 chocolate and coffee and beef. 13
Thank you,16 Mr. Chairman.17 I just want to say for the18 record that the members of this committee19 are keenly aware of your particular20 companies and particularly Pennsylvania-21 based companies. We do not view22 Philadelphia in a vacuum from our other23 counties.24 The Lancaster County is near and25 232 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 dear to my heart. I hope you hire some of2 the fine industrialists produced from3 Millersville University up there, which is4 a fine institution that trains5 industrialists. And so we're familiar6 with the 1700 folks.7 And I talked to members of this8 committee who don't want to hurt your9 business at all, but I'll ask the same10 question I asked the young lady: How much11 have you invested in Philadelphia's12 recycling program? And haven't you been13 made aware of this from sometime --14
And weren't19 you given opportunities to kind of20 participate?21
Yes. We're very22 aware. In fact, I did testify in 2007,23 when this issue came up before. And at24 that time, we were working with a25 233 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 commercial recycler of polystyrene foam2 food service. That recycler, while3 primarily active on the West Coast, at4 that time, had a pilot program in the New5 York City schools.6 Because of various reasons, that7 recycler did not turn out to be viable.8 So that essentially ended what we had9 thought in 2007 was going to be our way to10 work with Philadelphia to recycle.11 Dart itself, as I said, we've12 developed programs where we provide13 equipment, we pick up material, and we14 recycle polystyrene food service at15 institutions and large customers in select16 locations. And that's what we've come up17 with since then, so we have not been18 sitting idly by.19
Okay. I just20 want to say for the record that I don't21 know how our chairman wants to deal with22 this, but I think he's been very23 patient --24
-- in trying2 to encourage and incentivize recycling as3 an option. And what his frustration is,4 as we start to -- if the economy didn't5 fall, we probably -- I don't know, they6 may still would have been pushed this7 legislation, but in particular, in light8 of the fact that we're trying to balance9 our budget, we're trying to find quarters10 in couches and places, and we're at odds11 about paper clips and how much we use.12
When we start14 to look at what it costs us tonnage-wise15 to remove some of this material, it16 becomes a little higher on our radar17 screen, and that's what may be some of the18 reasons why he is feeling this way.19
I understand and I20 agree. And, like I said, if those21 products on your table there didn't end up22 in the same place as we sit today, as all23 of the other food-service products, then I24 would say yes, that's a great, you know,25 235 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 direction to go in.2 But right now, they do. So why3 penalize a product that's inexpensive,4 that employs a lot of people in this area.5 I'm just saying, don't look at polystyrene6 as an example. We should be looked as7 food service -- as all of the other8 food-service products.9
And we get10 it. I mean, we get it.11 But I want you to get is that12 sometimes -- and I'm the freshman here,13 these are my upper classmen, if you will.14 And sometimes when people come and say,15 We're going to participate in this, and16 don't do this over here. Don't move this,17 but we're going to do all of these18 wonderful things, they think we have a19 short memory.20 But there's a stenographer21 there.22
And they24 memorialize all of these comments,25 236 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 commitments, concerns. And every now and2 then, we go back to that record to see3 what people told this municipality by way4 of their good-faith effort.5
I hear what you're9 saying. And, again, I will close with10 while our first attempt at helping11 Philadelphia recycle polystyrene did not12 pan out, we have switched directions. We13 now have a new way of looking at things14 and doing things.15 And one thing I would like to16 close with is that we'd like to offer17 Dart's support and work with the City in18 our limited way, where we can do it, to19 help you recycle our products. And that20 would take, obviously, not passing this21 legislation and giving us an opportunity22 to work more with the City.23
Thank you,24 Mr. Chair.25 237 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751
Okay. We're2 just going to take a moment, just one3 moment. We have some housekeeping issues4 to deal with. You can testify as soon as5 we're done with our housekeeping issues.6 Councilwoman Reynolds-Brown was7 gracious enough to leave her Empowerment8 Seminar for Women, of course -- that goes9 unsaid. And she came over. So we want to10 thank her for doing that and we also just11 want to kind of get some amendment work12 done.13 So we're going to recess --14 we're going to temporarily recess the15 public hearing and we're to go into a16 public meeting.17
Yeah, I got a son4 getting son getting married tomorrow, and5 I got a reception dinner tonight.6
Okay.10 We're going into our public11 meeting. We have a quorum with12 Councilwoman Brown, Councilman DiCicco,13 Councilman Jones and Chairman Kenney.14 So I want to recognize15 Councilman DiCicco for a motion to amend16 Bill No. 090064.17 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Thank you,18 Mr. Chairman.19 I move that the amendment to20 Bill No. 090064 be approved.21 (Motion duly seconded.)22
It's been23 moved and seconded.24 All in favor, aye?25 239 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 There are none opposed. Bill2 No. 090064 will be amended accordingly,3 and that bill will be held to the call of4 the Chair.5 Bill No. 090074 will be held to6 the call of the Chair.7 The Chair recognizes Councilman8 DiCicco for a motion to amend Bill No.9 090075.10 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Thank you,11 Mr. Chairman.12 I move that the amendment to13 Bill No. 090075 be approved.14 (Motion duly seconded.)15
It's been16 moved and seconded.17 All in favor?18 There are none opposed.19 Bill No. 090075 will be amended20 accordingly.21 The Chair now recognizes22 Councilman DiCicco for a motion on the23 amended bill.24 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Thank you,25 240 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 Mr. Chairman.2 I move that Bill No. 090075, as3 amended, be reported out of this committee4 with a favorable recommendation and that5 the rules of Council be suspended so as to6 permit first reading at our next regular7 session of City Council.8 (Motion duly seconded.)9
It's been10 moved and seconded.11 All in favor Bill No. 090075, as12 amended, will be reported out of this13 committee with a favorable recommendation,14 and a request made for a rules suspension15 and offered for first reading at our next16 Council session.17 * * *18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 241 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751
We will now2 recess the public meeting and reconvene3 the public hearing.4 Please identify yourself for the5 record and proceed.6
Please8 identify yourself for the record and9 proceed.10
Please14 identify yourself for the record and15 proceed.16
Oh, I'm sorry.17 Jim O'Brien. I'm with a company called18 E.K. Lay. I'm a manufacture's19 representative here in Philadelphia.20 And it's a a little bit21 different. I'm a local guy, I went to22 local schools here in Philadelphia. My23 business is here in Philadelphia. We have24 an office up in Port Richmond. And it's25 242 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 different.2 I represent -- my company3 represents about ten different companies4 that are in the disposal business. And,5 Mr. Kenney, I heard you say earlier, you6 know, what's changed? Years ago, you7 know, we didn't go out to eat. Our8 parents made dinner, we ate home.9 And in our business -- and I've10 been doing it for 30 years -- people say11 what's changed? Everything has changed.12 When I got into the business, it was13 paper, and then it became plastic, and14 then there's all different types of15 plastic.16 And we're talking about here now17 polystyrene, which is the number 6. And18 polystyrene products, the finished19 product, looks different. I think20 everybody thinks polystyrene is the foam21 packaging.22 But it's also that cocktail23 glass, you know, that hard-plastic glass.24 It's also that soft plastic translucent25 243 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 cup. So there's an awful lot of different2 shapes that polystyrene package takes.3 My notes here -- and I think4 everybody cover it. You know, I look up5 at the screen and I see the trash there.6 That's not the manufacturers that we7 represent, that's not what they're all8 about.9 And, Mr. Kenney, you mentioned,10 you know, what have they done? What's11 been going on?12 I got a question on the13 recycling: Have we done enough on14 recycling? Is the City of Philadelphia15 really into recycling?16
And how about20 composting; are we moving forward with21 composting --22
-- at those sites?25 244 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751
Okay. Our4 manufacturers, the guys that we represent,5 the companies that we represent. What6 have they been doing? As I said, I7 represent about ten different companies.8 They've been doing a lot.9 There's a company, GenPack that10 makes polystyrene packaging. They make11 foam-hinged containers, the bad guys, but12 they've also introduced a product line13 called Harvest, which is biodegradable and14 compostable.15 Now I'm a local guy. I got a16 local company.17
Okay.25 245 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751
I'm a local guy, I2 make local calls. My company goes from3 Philly, Baltimore, Washington, down into4 the State of Virginia. And that's one of5 my products.6 And a lot of people say, Ooh,7 that's a good product. That product is a8 dual-material product. You can't recycle9 that because you can't separate the poly10 from the paper.11
Oh, it's Green17 Restaurant-endorsed. That's for people18 who have problems with plastic. That's19 for people who have problems with plastic.20 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Can I just21 interrupt you for a second? It says "made22 from recycled paperboard."23
Yes.24 COUNCILMAN DiCICCO: Does that25 246 5/1/09 - ENVIRONMENT - BILLS 090064, 74, 751 mean you could only reuse it once as a2 recycled product?3
A disposal product4 is used once.5 And going back to Mr. Kenney,6 what you said --7
Well, if I8 had that in my house and had used it, I'd9 put it in the recycling bin.10