COUNCIL OF THE CITY OF PHILADELPHIA COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY Room 400, City Hall Philadelphia, Pennsylvania Tuesday, October 19, 2010 1:50 p.m. PRESENT: COUNCILWOMAN DONNA REED MILLER, CHAIR COUNCILWOMAN JANNIE BLACKWELL COUNCILMAN DARRELL CLARKE COUNCILMAN FRANK DiCICCO COUNCILMAN WILLIAM K. GREENLEE COUNCILMAN CURTIS JONES, JR. COUNCILMAN BRIAN J. O'NEILL COUNCILMAN FRANK RIZZO, JR. RESOLUTION 100560- Resolution calling for the City Council Committee on Public Safety to Conduct Public Hearings to Investigate the Implementation and Consequences of the City's Brown-Out Policy of Taking Fire Department Engine and Ladder Companies Out of Service. - - - 2
Good afternoon. The Committee on Public Safety is now in session. Let the record reflect that in attendance Committee members are Councilman Frank Rizzo, Councilman Bill Greenlee, and to my right Councilman Frank DiCicco, and I am Councilwoman Donna Reed Miller, Chair of the Committee. And also in attendance is Councilwoman Jannie Blackwell. Would the Clerk please read the title of the resolution.
Resolution 100560, resolution calling for the City Council Committee on Public Safety to conduct public hearings to investigate the implementation and consequences of the City's brown-out policies of taking Fire Department engine and ladder companies out of service.
Thank you. I'd like to begin by thanking you for your attendance and interest in 3 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560 this very important issue, and I'm going to call on Councilwoman Jannie Blackwell for an opening statement.
Thank you. Good afternoon, and thank all of you for being here for today's hearing on the Administration's policy of closing neighborhood fire stations on a rotating basis, more commonly known as the, quote/unquote, brown-out policy. In June of this year, the Administration announced that starting July 1st, Fiscal Year 2011, certain neighborhood fire stations would be taken out of service on a rotating basis in an effort to save $3.8 million in overtime costs. Under the brown-out policy, firefighters assigned to fire stations that have been taken out of service are reassigned to other fire stations in neighborhoods around the City that are in service. 4 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560 Under brown-out, neighboring fire stations respond to emergencies in the neighborhood where the fire station is closed. Therefore, the brown-out policy can result in increased response time, as firefighters travel greater distances responding to emergencies in neighborhoods where fire stations are closed. Increased response times place the public at greater risk of personal injury and property damage, because minutes rather -- minutes matter in the event of a fire emergency. According to Fire Department officials, a fire can double in size every 60 seconds. So one or two minutes added to the response time can mean the difference between life and death. Recent fires in the City, including the fatal fire that took the life of 12-year-old Frank Marasco, an autistic child, on August 7th, 2010, in my district, in West Philadelphia, have 5 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560 caused residents to rightfully question whether closing fire stations is a responsible way for the City to cut costs. As a result, on September 16th, 2010, City Council passed Resolution 8 100560 calling for hearings to investigate the implementation and consequences of the Administration's policy of closing neighborhood fire stations under brown-outs. At the outset of these hearings, let me say I am totally opposed to the continuation of the brown-out policy, and I am absolutely thoroughly convinced that the closing of fire stations is not a responsible way to save money. Therefore, I am committed that all our fire stations, and believe that, should stay open. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Councilwoman. This is an important issue and 6 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560 the City, like almost all cities in the country, have been faced with some very terrible financial shortfalls. This, coupled with other issues, has forced the City to make hard financial decisions. We're here today to see if we can safely afford to make these decisions, and if we cannot, then the Fire Department must not continue with the brown-outs. With that, we're going to see a short video. Any other Councilmembers want to make any comments? (No response.)
Thank you. Thank you, Councilwoman Blackwell, for the video. I'd also like to recognize that Councilman Brian O'Neill is also in attendance at this hearing. 7 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560 We're going to start with the public witnesses first, and we have Greg Spearman, Marvin Wilson. Please come up to the witness table and identify yourself, and make sure you pull the mike close to you and speak into the mike so we can hear you, and proceed with your testimony. (Witnesses approached witness table.)
How you doing? I'm Greg Spearman, 60th Ward Leader, Ward Leader in the 60th Ward, which is the ward that the Engine 57 resides in.
Good afternoon. I'm Marvin Wilson, Senior Block Captain for this district. One of the blocks south --
Mr. Wilson, can you pull the mike closer to you? Thank you.
Good afternoon. 8 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560 I'm Marvin Wilson, Block Captain for the 100 block of South 55th Street, West Philly.
You can proceed with your testimony or with your remarks.
Thank you. The evening of August 2010 between the hours of 6:00 and 7:00 an autistic young man in my area lost his life due to fire, a fire that we are convinced could have been prevented had the fire station, not even a good minute away, was available and was not open to respond to this -- to the call. My community was not, as block captain or community members, were not prior warned about this fire district being closed, and the fire station that did respond, I'm confident they responded as soon as they could, but it was too late. Had the fire station at 56th and Chestnut been open, I doubt very seriously that we would have lost the 9 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560 life of 12-year-old Frank Marasco. I have here over 1,500 signatures from neighbors and community members that took the time to come out with City Councilperson Jannie Blackwell and Mr. Spearman, Ms. Virginia DeShields and some other community members. We were told that the fire station -- this is after the fact -- that the fire station was closed for some brown-out reasons. That's the first time I ever heard the term. And our community does not understand why our Mayor chooses to attack those two entities that our City needs the most. He has chosen to attack the Fire Department and the Police Department and take them away from us for whatever reasons he decides is justifiable. Our sisters cannot afford to lose lives due to lack of response from the Fire or Police. We feel like leave these people alone and attack those parts of City Hall, City Council that the 10 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560 public doesn't depend on so directly. I mean, this is not rational to me or the people I come here to represent. This is totally irrational, irresponsible and non-caring, as far as I'm concerned. Like I said, along with Greg Spearman, Councilwoman Blackwell and myself, we sat out in the rain for days and nights, the people stopping they cars coming in inclement weather to give their name and time and interest. Frank Marasco was an autistic child, but he was a very loving kid, and this boy would never see his 13th birthday because the people that are trained and prepared to preserve such life as this were not available. And his mother would never know why or understand why or accept the reasons that she was given why her son is not with us today. Our Mayor has never, not even to this day, he has not yet come forward to acknowledge this young man's death. He has not even offered a condolence 11 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560 message to this young family, and we perceive this to be as a totally uncaring City official. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Wilson. Mr. Spearman, do you have any remarks or comments?
Yes. You know, as I said, I'm Ward Leader in the ward, and I'd like to speak as though I'm speaking for the ward, because everybody that I have spoken to, barring none, feel the same way as Mr. Marvin spoke, same exact way. It's never no problem getting somebody to sign a petition. What I expect is those from the Department that believe that it would have happened regardless, I think they on the wrong side of the issue. I think they need to adjust themselves. But I'm asking the City Council members up there just to use plain common sense as we evaluate all 12 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560 that happened, because when we look at it, 56th and Chestnut and 55th and Sansom is one block away. I talked to many firefighters. As we talked to the firefighters, the average time of getting out of the firehouse is less than a minute, less than one minute, that they suited up and that truck is rolling outside the doors, and it will take less than -- and we can evaluate this. I expect them to give some all this, you know, double jargon, false interpretations to justify why our stationhouse was browned out. And we know that in a fire, the number one enemy to the firefighters is time. So we talking about that we can understand, the laymans, we're talking about less than two minutes. And we got a firehouse that's over a mile away that they going to say and they say to us, like we're idiots, that time didn't matter. That's ridiculous. I don't know who they think they talking to, but we can add up, and 13 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560 for them to continually say that, that's an insult to us all. We have watched our Mayor taking target recreation centers, swimming pools, libraries, and the number one job of our government is the health and welfare of its constituents. That's the number one job, is our safety. And then to go toward that and try to cut costs based on the lives of the community, I think with the same evaluation, we all will come up with that that there firehouse on 52nd and Florence did contribute or at least, at the least, in which I haven't heard any of them say, that the percentage would have been better if 56th and Chestnut was open, if Engine 57 was open. It's ridiculous. They want to stand starch with this budgetary analogy or what happened and try to stick firm to that. Well, while we watch over and over again -- we had a fire on the 5300 block of Spruce Street during the brown-out, 14 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560 and we lost two houses in that fire. I guarantee you if Engine 57 was open, the most it would have been was one house. I mean, the most it would have been. They keep on telling us about it makes no 7 difference, like we're idiots. Now, I ask you to sit there and evaluate it, 56th and Chestnut, one block away from the fire, one block away. That's all it is, one block away. It takes them less than a minute to get out the firehouse, less than a minute to get to the fire, and they going to say it didn't make no difference. I can hold my breath that long. And I ask City Council, please do all that you can for the citizens, because we're crying out and see the families that are hurt. The communities that's being disenfranchised by this disrespectful attempt to save money on the backs of our citizens is ridiculous. And that's who I come here to speak for specifically, is the community residents, my family. 15 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560 One of the things we watched the Mayor when he was campaigning for Mayor, he put up 55th and Larchwood as his community. Engine 57 would have serviced 55th and Larchwood if something would have caught on fire. So -- and this is just a message to all the citizens: If he do it to his own neighborhood, think of what he do to your neighborhood. I'd like to thank you for your time.
I'd also like to thank you and Mr. Wilson for coming in to testify today. Councilman Bill Greenlee.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Good afternoon, gentlemen. Just a very quick question. Mr. Wilson, were you on the block the day the fire occurred? Were you there?
Okay. How long would you say roughly it was -- I know you weren't counting every second -- until the first fire engine responded, would you guess? Best of your estimate.
I'd also like to recognize Councilman Curtis Jones in attendance. Do you have questions for them?
All right. Thank you. Our next two witnesses are Rubye Weaver and Virginia DeShields. 17 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560 Please come up to the witness table. (Witnesses approached witness table.)
And please identify yourself for the record and proceed with your testimony. And don't forget to pull the mike close enough so we can hear you. Whoever wants to go first.
Good afternoon. My name is Rubye Weaver. I'm a resident of the 100 block of South 55th Street, 141, which was damaged by the fire on August the 7th, 2010. My family and I are still displaced because of the fire. The fire started three doors away from my home. The Fire Department did not reach our block for at least eight to ten minutes after the fire had started and calls had been given. The neighbor in 135, their alarm company called the Fire Department because their alarm went off, and their call went into the fire company about 6:46. That was 18 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560 the call from the alarm company of the owners in 135. I feel that the extent of the damage to the other homes in that block would not have been as extensive as it is if 56th and Chestnut had been available. 56th and Chestnut had been closed. I understand that they open up at 6 o'clock, but did not have their equipment. They had to go to other sections of the City to get their equipment. Being displaced is not a pleasant thing to have to go through, and what happened in the 100 block of South 55th Street could happen anywhere in the City. And we are here this afternoon to ask that City Council and the Mayor would do whatever they can possible to discontinue the brown-out. Thank you.
Thank you. Ms. DeShields. 19 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560 MS. DeSHIELDS: My name is Virginia DeShields. I live at 143 South 55th Street. At the time during the fire, the man whose house was actually on fire came to my house and he said, You got to get out, because my house is on fire. So I said, Well, you live two doors down or three doors down. So I came out and her house -- her roof was on fire. So I came out. Then the police arrived before the Fire Department. So we was worried about the little boy that was in the house. So I sent the police through my house to try to save the little boy. It was about three or four policemen. Now, they are at Pine Street. So they actually beat the Fire Department to the fire. So then as I stood there and I looked up -- her house was on fire when I came out, then my house was catching on fire. Still no Fire Department. And I said, Well, when the Fire Department 20 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560 come? I said, Because my house is getting ready to catch on fire now. Now you got four or five houses on fire. And when the Fire Department came, they were unprepared. They didn't have the right equipment, the right truck, the right water pressure. I don't know what it was, but they did not come in fighting fire. They came in like they were confused and unprepared. I guess because this was a new thing, this brown-out, and they hadn't worked out the kinks. So we lost out. Our houses was burnt. We lost a life in the neighborhood. And the only thing that they didn't lose is saving the City money, but I think people lives is worth more than money. And there has to be a better way for people to save money than to take the people who save lives, the lifesavers. That's where they cut at. They didn't cut at the Water Department or the gas company. They're cutting where we need help to save our lives. 21 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560 And thank you very much, and I hope they do something with this brown-out, because the next time, you know, it could be somebody else's child that dies in the fire.
How many houses were burnt? MS. DeSHIELDS: It was five houses.
And that includes the one where the little boy lived, correct? MS. DeSHIELDS: Right. My house is on the other side of hers. My house had started to burn, my roof and everything, and I actually came out and I was saying, Do something, my house catching on fire. Because, I mean, when you see your house on fire, you think everything you own is in this house, things you can't replace. And then you look down the street and I said, Oh, my goodness. I called my daughter. I said, The whole block on fire. And no Fire 22 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560 Department. Now, they say they came in three minutes. The policemen beat them there. They at Pine Street. I know if the policemen can get there in a minute or two, if the Fire Department around the corner, they could have got there, that boy might have been saved. I don't know, but I do know he would have had more of a chance and our houses would have had more of a chance.
Are you also displaced? Are you back in your home? MS. DeSHIELDS: Pardon me? No, I'm not displaced. My porch and everything, I have no roof up there, but I'm in my home. I was the last house where the fire stopped. Well, my house caught on fire, but it stopped there. But their houses, her bedroom, the neighbor to that, her whole upstairs was on fire. The neighbor to that, her house was totaled. The neighbor to that, his 23 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560 house was totaled. So, I mean, all these houses from one house?
There is nine houses in that particular block. Every house in that block was affected by the fire, except the end houses. They either got smoke damage, even some burned. MS. DeSHIELDS: And then they said something about the smoke detector. The man was standing outside when the lady told him the house was on fire. So it wasn't the fact that it wasn't no 15 smoke detectors. They didn't go off right away anyway, because all the smoke went against going north and the fire was going south. Because we could stand out there and watch that fire and nobody's eye is burnt. We stood there and watched that fire, and the smoke, it was all going towards 52nd Street. And a lot of the alarms -- I don't even think my alarm went off. If somebody hadn't came and gotten me, I might have got trapped in 24 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560 the house, but the man whose house was on fire, he was nice enough to come and tell me to get out.
Okay. Thank you. Any other questions, Committee members? (No response.)
Thank you. Thank you very much for coming in. Next we'll have Bill Gault, President of Local 22.
I was on the block that night. I got a call, and I can concur with everything they've said. I got a call from a former aide calling screaming. I'm like, What's wrong? What's wrong? He said, Oh, my God, my God, there's houses fire and there's nobody here. I was talking on the phone, rushed 25 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560 to the location, and I heard the same thing, that the police were there first. They were knocking on doors, and that this little child was attached to some toy, and as an autistic child had an attachment, he went back to get this toy and that his mother was on the roof. And, you know, certainly later -- I heard the exact same thing, it was eight to ten minutes. And certainly fire companies from every place were there, maybe five. Mr. Gault will know. They all came to try to help and to try to protect the fellow firefighters, but, of course, by then it was too late. But we were there, and I believe what has been said by everybody, it wasn't two or three minutes. It really wasn't. (Witnesses approached witness table.)
Thank 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560 you. Thank you, Councilwoman. Mr. Gault.
Hi. Bill Gault, President of Philadelphia Firefighters Union. We can sit here and argue about time. First, thank you very much for having these hearings. They're very important, and thank the citizens. I'm very sorry for all their losses. Can any of us imagine losing our home? Losing a child? For $3.8 million? How dare the Mayor not inform the citizens that their firehouse isn't going to be open tonight. Your firehouse isn't -- they gave no warning to the citizens. Three point eight, 3.4, 3.6, depending on who you're talking to, it's all about money? I don't think they're going to save any money when the lawsuits start coming in. This is a crazy plan. The packets I prepared for each and every one of you's is a letter from three former fire commissioners, and in 27 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560 there is their exact wording. Even our own fire commissioner told you's in your own hearings a year and a half ago that we are cut to the bone. You can't keep cutting the Fire Department. You's control the purse strings. You's have to find them the money. Right now bean counters are running the Fire Department, and it's just not right. What good is a city that you can't protect the citizens? I'll answer any questions you have. You've heard all my statements before. Nothing has changed. This is a game of smoke and mirrors. One day you're protected, the next day you're not. Right now, the men and women of the Philadelphia Fire Department are running into burning buildings without the aid of a hose line, because we have single ladder companies. Engine companies are the little ones that carry 28 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560 the water. They carry 500 gallons of water. Ladder companies are the long ones with the guy that drives on the back. Their main function is rescue. Without water their job becomes extremely perilous, extremely dangerous, and they're doing it daily anymore without the aid of a hose line. It's happening especially in the Frankford section where they closed Engine 14. We have ladder guys running into a building without the aid of a hose line. Not only does the water put out a fire, it also gives them a mean of egress, a way out they can follow if they have to escape. I mean, there's a lot of variables that were not considered in this plan, the plan we've never seen, but from what I hear, they're currently working on one to throw at you's. Right now we're talking a minuscule amount of money in a $4 billion budget. Please, for the safety of the Philadelphia Fire Department, just find 29 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560 them their money so this stops. We know this Mayor has a vendetta against us. We do not know why. But it has to stop. That little kid didn't have to die. Five houses didn't have to burn, two houses around the corner. Fire doubles exponentially, and as long as it has fuel, it's going to keep going. Sooner or later they're all going to go out. We're surrounded by rivers. Is that what we want? These were put strategically. It's a team game with an engine and ladder. You just can't cut some here and cut some here and expect it to work. And then the citizens don't even know if they're there or not. Any questions?
Good afternoon, 30 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560 sir.
I know you answered this at different times, but just maybe now for the record. When the Administration first announced this policy, they talked about firehouses already being periodically closed for training.
Again, I know you've told me personally your feeling on this, but maybe for the record could you just say what you feel is the difference in this.
Well, the Commissioner said that we had five closed daily for different types of training. They didn't do training at night. And the training during the day, these were fully operational companies staffed with firemen who at the minute could drop that training and go back to their quarters or go back to their local, which is our procedure in the Fire Department. 31 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560 Whenever a second alarm kicks in, everybody stops fire prevention, stops training, stops whatever we're doing on the outside and returns to the firehouse for orders or for coverage in the other areas. That was what the redundancy in the grid was. When they removed the seven companies a year and a half ago, they removed redundancy. Now when we have a fire in one neighborhood, they take so much out of the other neighborhoods that neighborhoods are uncovered completely. There might be one fire engine there and one ladder company. So we're taking extreme risks here. We've been playing Russian roulette here and we've been Biblically lucky, but something is going to happen and it's going to happen and everybody is going to be sorry and all and it's going to be like Detroit, the guy is going to say it's God's will. We have the power to straighten this out right now. You's just have to 32 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560 find the money. The Mayor is not going to. He's against us. This is not a lot of money. They have enough money to put $35 million for a skating rink outside, but they don't have enough money to protect a 12-year-old autistic kid? Something is wrong with our priorities here, and I need you, we need you's to straighten this out. Any other questions?
Two of the witnesses testified that the Fire Department seemed confused when the fire persons arrived on the scene. What would --
They weren't confused, ma'am. What arrived on the scene first was a battalion chief and his aide in the little Suburban car. Their job is command control, accountability and taking care of the equipment that's 33 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560 coming in. They give the orders to the engine and ladders. That's a battalion chief in that car. All he has, radios and intelligence. He runs the operation. That's the general.
What happened is, they can get there quick because it's not like navigating a truck around the City.
Okay. Thank you. I just want to state that Councilman Darrell Clarke, who is a member of this Committee, is now apart of this hearing, has arrived. And Councilman Frank Rizzo, you have a question?
Yes, ma'am. Thank you. You brought up something else that was near and dear to my heart, and congratulations, the idea to eliminate the chief's aides I think was a very bad suggestion that was being pushed by this 34 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560 Administration, and I understand arbitration has overruled that.
So congratulations on that, because I thought that was a pretty bad management decision to even suggest to eliminate the chief's aides. You know, I come from the utility industry, and I don't know who gave this program the name brown-outs, but in the utility industry, it is the bottom of the reliability chart. When you talk about a brown-out, you're talking about voltage that is low, that destroys in some cases equipment, you talk about some sections of a community that have no electricity at all. And, again, it is the most unreliable but worst service that a utility company can provide when they are in a brown-out mode. So whoever named it gave it a great name.
It's a lovely word 35 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560 for the media.
But it's a good name, because it describes probably the worst service that an organization can provide.
Councilwoman Miller, may I also respond to the Councilman's question?
Yes, ma'am. My name is Richard Paulson and I am legal counsel to the Firefighters and Paramedics Union. Councilman Rizzo asked about the battalion chief aides issue and noted correctly that the Administration had attempted to eliminate, against the better judgment of many people, the chief aide position, which is a critically 36 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560 important safety position on fire grounds, and that was an issue that was addressed in our most recent contract arbitration. The most recent arbitration award, which was issued last week, did have language that prevents the City, the Nutter Administration, from eliminating that position. I will note, however, that the Administration has already identified that provision as a provision that violates its inherent managerial rights and the Administration intends to appeal that provision. And I think that gets to the challenge that we face on our side of the table and oftentimes Council faces with respect to its critically important role, and that's the question of were Council to allocate the money, what would the Administration do? Would they spend it appropriately? And, unfortunately, what we have been dealing with with this Administration for the last two years is an unwillingness to spend appropriately and to put 37 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560 appropriately safe services in motion. So in a sense, we share many of the same frustrations, and I don't know exactly what we can do to make them do the right thing, but when you hear articulate citizens like Mr. Wilson and Mr. Spearman and Ms. Weaver and Ms. DeShields and you see real people who are affected in meaningful ways by what I see as a misuse of their managerial authority, I certainly hope that we can come together in ways that fund this department appropriately and make them staff the Department appropriately, because it means something. Thank you.
Thank you. How many -- are there any vacancies, firefighter vacancies? How many would that be?
Probably a couple hundred. We haven't hired a new fire class in over two years, ma'am.
The 38 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560 Administration has eliminated, I think, 180 positions over the last year and a half. A very significant reduction.
So the vacancy number is based on old numbers of firefighters or that also includes the 180 eliminated positions?
If we totaled them, it's probably 300 vacancies, which they keep saying in the media it's all about overtime, but that's because they haven't hired any fire classes.
One of the problems that we faced is that there aren't enough men and women on the job to fill the positions that are needed to appropriately protect the City. What the Fire Department did was, they didn't lay anybody off, but they didn't fill vacancies, so they gradually reduced the Department through attrition. What that enabled the Administration to do is, I think inappropriately and quite frankly offensively, was say that the 39 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560 firefighters are complaining because they're missing out on overtime. Well, it's not our fault that people were working overtime to fill those positions. We wished that they had enough firefighters. So I think that's an important fact that I know that many Council folks are aware of, but it's important to note.
Everett Gillison, Deputy Mayor for Public Safety, and Commissioner Ayers, Fire Department. (Witnesses approached witness table.)
Thank you very much. Thank you both for coming as well. And I'll get right to the heart of some of the questions -- well, one of them -- that I get all the time, but during discussions in the past where you talk about temporary closing fire stations for training during the day, which has been mentioned, and you've also said that under the current brown-out policy, rather than attending training, the firefighters from three of those stations are reassigned to stations where firefighters are on leave. Doesn't this result in the stations being closed more than in the past because firefighters 41 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560 eventually have to close their station to attend training that they missed or when they were reassigned? DEPUTY
Councilwoman, Everett Gillison, Deputy Mayor for Public Safety. I think that if you would allow me, the first answer and the short answer to your question is no, but I think that we will cover that as we, both the Commissioner and I, present the testimony. So with your permission and with the Chair's permission, I'd like the Commissioner to be able to read his testimony, and then we'll be glad to answer the specific questions.
That's fine. Commissioner Ayers. COMMISSIONER AYERS: Thank you, 42 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560 Councilwoman, and thank you to the Committee. I'd like to say that I'm Fire Commissioner Lloyd Ayers. With me is Deputy Mayor Everett Gillison, and from the Fire Department I have Ernest Hargett, Deputy Commissioner for Operations; John Devlin, Deputy Commissioner for Technical Services; and David Beatrice, Deputy Commissioner for Administrative Services. Our focus in the Fire Department is on safety. Collectively, we have served as professional firefighters for over 109 years, and we are proud of the service to this department. We and the men and women of the Philadelphia Fire Department are committed to providing the highest quality of service to the citizens of Philadelphia. There are a number of components to improving safety, some of which involve the manner in which we respond to incidents and some of which 43 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560 involve reducing the number of incidents that occur in the first place. I am proud of the hard work and dedication of our members in educating our public and updating our fire code standards to help reduce the calls for fire service and demands on fire service personnel. We can't always plan when incidents will happen or when people will need us. Our partnerships with the community has proven that the cumulative results of educating the public about fire prevention and the heroic efforts of the men and women of the Department have resulted in recent years in positive trends, including fewer fires and fewer fire-related deaths. Since the beginning of this decade, we have seen a steady reduction in structural fires, and we continue this year to receive fewer and fewer calls related to structural fires. Currently, there are approximately 60 percent fewer fires per year in the City of 44 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560 Philadelphia than there were in 1990. Because of our efforts, the City has seen a reduction in fire fatalities. There were 30 fire-related deaths in 2009, which is the lowest number in Philadelphia history. By comparison, there were 52 fire-related deaths in both 2005 and 2006. This year the Fire Department is down almost 11 percent in fire-related fatalities 12 compared to 2009. That's 23 compared to 13 27 this time last year. However, we 14 remain vigilant, as one significant fire, 15 one significant fire can change the trajectory of this number. Also important to note is that despite the installation of over 18,000 smoke alarms in 2009, it is still the case that 65 to 70 percent of fire fatalities occur in homes with no working smoke alarms. We must continue to focus on fire prevention and risk reduction to continue to improve the safety of our citizens. We hope the members of the 45 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560 Public Safety Committee and City Council generally will continue to work with us to get accurate information and services to our communities to help prevent an incident from occurring in the first place. These results have been achieved against a backdrop of fewer resources. As you know, over the past two years, the nation has suffered a deliberating (sic) economic recession from which the City of Philadelphia has not escaped. The economic situation has required the City to reshape the budgets of all City departments. Because we have fewer fires, we have been able to look at savings in the Fire Department budget with minimal impact on the critical service. 5 million through the deactivation of five engine companies and two ladder companies. 46 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560 Factors that were considered in making the deactivation decisions included the geographic location of the designated companies, the physical size of the local area that were served, company workload, the abundance of surrounding companies, and the intention of not closing any fire facility. 8 million.
Our goal was to find a way to achieve the budget reduction without deactivating any additional companies, permanently closing any firehouses or critically reducing the service to the community, while preserving every firefighter and paramedic position in the Department. 8 million reduction was realized through an overtime reduction strategy. The Fire Department now takes three of the five companies per shift that are temporarily deactivated and used 47 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560 the personnel to fill in for firefighters that were using leave time. Due to the minimum staffing requirements, the Fire Department is required to ensure a designated number of firefighters are always staffing the company. In the past, when scheduled firefighters used their leave time, we filled their positions by paying overtime to off-duty firefighters to fill in. Additionally, we were temporarily deactivating five companies for training during the day shift and occasionally on the night shift for short periods of time. Now, rather than sending all five temporarily deactivated companies to training, the members staffing three of those companies are redistributed to fill in where other firefighters are using leave time, which is how we reduce the overtime budget on each shift. The other two companies are sent to training during the day shift. The Department is using the 48 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560 temporary deactivations on a rolling basis, which means we rotate which companies will be out of service for training or filling in for firefighters using leave time. This way, no company is temporarily deactivated for an extended period of time. The Philadelphia Fire Department has been using temporary deactivations for over 30 years and it has been an established way of training firefighters and maintaining minimum staffing. Many other departments around the country; for example, Los Angeles and Boston, use this as a tool as well for training and filling in positions at other company locations and also have used it during these hard economic times to preserve jobs by significantly reducing overtime costs. Prior to implementing any plan, meetings were held with senior chiefs of the Philadelphia Fire Department. Of the choices available, after analysis and 49 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560 review of the data, the overtime reduction plan was selected. Companies were chosen on information and data related to the size of the service area and capability of the perimeter companies to respond; response times; workload based on the number of runs for fire and EMS incidents; unit hour utilization, how often a company is responding to other incidents; and facility security. The schedule is for three engine companies to temporarily deactivate during the day shift and for two engine companies and one ladder company to temporarily deactivate during the night shift. A surrounding engine or ladder company that is fully staffed responds to any emergency in the temporarily deactivated area. The Department is continuously reviewing any fluctuations in response times based on personnel and equipment deployment to ensure that we 50 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560 are appropriately responding to the needs of our citizens hours a day, seven 4 days a week, 365 days a year. 5 I want to thank you for your 6 time, and I will take any questions. 7
10 Certainly. Thank you, Commissioner, and 11 we appreciate all that you do. Our issue 12 is not with you, not with the Deputy 13 Mayor and certainly not with any of the 14 firemen who sacrifice their lives every 15 day. It is with this heinous policy that 16 we believe the Administration has put 17 into effect, and as Mr. Spearman said, 18 common sense dictates. Ten minutes from 19 a minute, it's just common sense, it 20 dictates that you can't expect the same 21 results. 22 Do you know how long, Deputy 23 Mayor, the Administration plans to 24 continue this policy? DEPUTY
Yes, 51 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560 Councilwoman. Everett Gillison, Deputy Mayor for Public Safety. The plan is for this to go through the fiscal year in order to achieve the savings necessitated by the budget. So it will stop as of June 30 of 2011, going into the new fiscal year, 2012.
Do you have the measured response times from brown-out versus non-brown-out? DEPUTY
We can provide that to the Chair. The answer is yes. As the Commissioner has indicated, we have followed not only the areas that have been deactivated but also have looked at the utilization rates that have been in the surrounding companies. So we have that information. I'll be glad to provide it to the Chair.
Thank you. And have you considered that 52 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560 during the winter months when people use more kerosene and space heaters, have you considered that this may cause even more issues? DEPUTY
Yes. As a matter of fact, the reason why we were trying to make sure that we did a lot of these matters is that the rough time for fires, unfortunately, as you know, as we're all aware of, is in the winter months. I want to state one thing to be clear. We are committed to doing this because we have to live within the budget that we have. The Commissioner, however, always knows that if he ever needs anything from me in order to make sure if something should happen, that he doesn't see like the trends -- because we do trend analysis now to make sure we see what's going on and how it's going on. I know that he deploys people for educational purposes not only before -- not only after a fire but before a fire. 53 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560 It is when we look at our maps, we can see what the communities that are most affected by this kind of -- when they don't have the smoke detectors, to get them in. So he has the flexibility and he has the full support of this Administration, so that if he comes to me and says, Deputy Mayor, we need to look at this trend that is coming on and we need to deploy, I would not and the Mayor would not countenance just in the name of, quote/unquote, saving dollars, that we would not say put people out there to make sure that we avoid this tragedy that you see that might be coming up. However, I want to separate what I constantly hear, which is that this particular policy is something that is dangerous. This policy has gone on for 30 years. The only thing that is different about the way the Fire Department runs today as opposed to the way the Fire Department has run for 30 54 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560 years is that we have removed the opportunity at making overtime. That's it. There's nothing else that is different. So the Department is run the exact same way. It is just a matter of us making sure that we have to control for a particular budget amount that we have to live within in order to go forward. So safety is always primary. This man would not sit next to me and I'm sure he would not want me to sit next to him if that wasn't our number one goal. So we are doing that, and we're trying to make that happen, Councilwoman.
All right. I have one last question and then I'll defer to my colleagues. As we said, our issue is not with you or certainly with Commissioner Ayers. I've been with him on many accounts. We've been out. I've been there when he personally as well as his team have gone in homes and put in smoke detectors. We've been all 55 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560 over, and from that engine company, that very engine company. So that's not our issue. Our issue is that these stations are closed. I don't ever remember living through anything like this before. You say it's happened 30 years, but this is the first time -- and I've been in politics since 1971 -- that we've ever lived through this. The other thing I want to -- finally, before I turn the mike over, how do you consider which neighborhoods have to suffer this brown-out? Not all stations do it. Some. Do you consider the population? Do you consider whether seniors, low income? What are the criteria that you use, and do you consider which neighborhoods are less likely to have working smoke detectors? DEPUTY
I believe that if you looked at the latter part of the Commissioner's testimony, he 56 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560 actually gave the primary criteria with size of service area, response times, workload, unit hour utilization and facility security. Those were the primary factors that were used in order to make sure that we chose with care. So those were the criteria that was used. The other criteria that you mentioned were not the primary. These were the primaries.
Well, I did see that, but it doesn't break it down in any way that I can relate to. I would like -- DEPUTY
I'll try to get something else to you, then, Councilwoman, and I'll provide it to the Chair.
Thank you. So I looked at that. I saw the companies that were chosen based on the 57 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560 information and data. So does the data say is there any neighborhood that does not have a station that's a brown-out? DEPUTY
Yes. Throughout the entire City, depending on the -- let's say if you're in one section 8 of the City and there is literally no 9 company that could actually meet the response times based on the geography, then that particular company is not -- is eliminated as a source of being able to be included in this particular policy. So the answer to your question is yes.
Okay. Plus I think in the 8th Council District, I believe that -- and I don't know the stations by numbers and whatever, however you categorize them. I just know where they are. I believe that the station at Baynton and Chelten is not included in the brown-out because Carpenter Lane is closed. That's correct? COMMISSIONER AYERS: That is 58 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560 correct, Councilwoman.
Okay. All right. Just in terms of response time, I would assume that's why? COMMISSIONER AYERS: Yes, that is why. Nineteenth is not being included in that situation while 9's floor is being corrected.
Okay. And there were some issues regarding response time that the citizens brought up in West Philadelphia. What is the response time that you expect from a station when the closest station is browned out, as in their case? COMMISSIONER AYERS: We expect that in any case they will respond within five minutes and seconds. That's the 20 maximum. But that was not the case in the situation on 55th Street.
What was the response time? COMMISSIONER AYERS: The response in the case of 55th Street was 59 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560 three minutes and seconds. 3
Well -- 4 COMMISSIONER AYERS: That's 5 from the time that the alarm was received 6 at the Fire Communications Center. They 7 were dispatched -- actually, they were 8 dispatched in CAD almost 17 seconds 9 earlier, which was if we counted from 10 when the CAD, when the call taker 11 actually transferred the call and the 12 dispatcher dispatched the call, it was 13 actually two minutes and 57 seconds.
So that does not include when they actually arrived on the scene. COMMISSIONER AYERS: Yes, it does. DEPUTY
Does that mean the battalion chief? 60 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560 COMMISSIONER AYERS: That is the battalion chief.
We're talking about somebody, Commissioner, who can fight a fire. What can a battalion chief do other than have a fire extinguisher in a vehicle to prevent loss of life at that fire? COMMISSIONER AYERS: Well, we wouldn't dispatch a battalion chief by themselves, sir.
Who was there? COMMISSIONER AYERS: The battalion chief, the engine and the ladder, Engine 68 and Ladder 13, sir.
They were all there simultaneously? I understand the battalion chief was the first on the scene. COMMISSIONER AYERS: They were the first on the scene, and he started to give orders. The next response that we had from Ladder 13, they were saying that 61 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560 they were actually making rescues, and that was the lady that was on the roof.
For the record, Commissioner, could you tell us the time that the battalion chief got on location and can you tell us -- all the direction in the world, unless you're at the scene, can't put out a fire. Then I'd like to know how much time after the battalion chief's arrival did a firefighter that could put out the fire or rescue people arrive on the scene. COMMISSIONER AYERS: Well, due to a technological blacking that we have, we don't know exactly what moment in time that the engine company got there, and that's because they did not go into voice, they didn't say that they were there. They went directly following the chief's orders into service, stretching hose lines and rescuing the lady from the roof.
If we re-continue this hearing, could we have 62 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560 the battalion chief here to let us know what his recollection is on when the fire engine arrived at the scene after the arrival of the battalion chief? You're telling me that you have no idea how long the first piece of fire apparatus was on the scene after the battalion chief's arrival? COMMISSIONER AYERS: Yes, sir. I questioned the battalion chief that night myself, and he said, The engine was right behind me. DEPUTY
If I may, Councilman, the question that we have, because obviously we can provide -- and we can provide all this to the Chair and we can provide the Chair what our automated systems have shown us. Literally what we have, because I've heard it also, we have the voice of the battalion chief giving the orders on the scene as to how to fight this fire. We have the testimony -- not the testimony. We have the statement to the 63 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560 Fire Commissioner from the battalion chief that says that the person and the engine was right behind him. So even if you grant that it is a 20-second delay, that means that within three minutes and 45 seconds you had battalion answering within 2:47, and within another minute, you have -- even if you gave it another minute, which we have listened to and have found not to be the case -- the battalion chief said he's right there and he's giving orders. At that moment, the person is engaged with the fire. Now, they did not push the button, as you are well aware of, saying to the CAD that they're on the scene. So there's nothing that we have there. All we have is the voice and we have the professionals that have said that they're there and they're fighting the fire. The standards, which don't mean anything, but the standards that say that when we end up having to get to a fire, say that up to 5:20. We know that these 64 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560 people and the professionals were fighting this fire well within three minutes and 45 seconds. Now, that's just the fact. And I understand, and believe me, I understand the entire feeling, because when you have a community that is out there, what I've always wanted to know is if we could have a better way for an automatic response, which is why this Administration tries to put sprinklers in everyone's houses, not only just smoke detectors, that's the easiest way to do it if we can get that done. But we have a way to know that well within our standards, that we have put this entire plan together. We know that we had apparatus on the scene fighting the fire and making a rescue of a woman who was on the roof. That we know. We know it, and we can provide what we have to you, but you're not going to get a timeline from the CAD, because they didn't hit the button. All I know is what the battalion chief told 65 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560 me and told the Commissioner.
If I were -- and, again, I'm not. If I were part of that interrogation or that meeting with the battalion chief, I don't think I would have accepted -- the next question to that response that they're right behind me, Excuse me, Chief, what does "right behind me" mean? Is it one minute? Is it two minutes? I mean, I've got guys in Valley Forge in the expressway that are right behind me and I'm on Vine Street. So it just doesn't make any sense that that would be a question that would be -- an answer to a question that would be accepted. Right behind me? I don't beat my wife. You know, it's... DEPUTY
I'm not going to get into that. I understand your point, but my point to you is that the person is responding and they are responding to the direction of the battalion chief. And so your question to 66 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560 the Commissioner was, Show me a dot on a line. I'm saying that we don't have the ability to do that, but I do know that we are in communication and he is directing them well within the timeframes that we have. So --
Point of order. My point is this: When I got there and we saw the police interacting with the residents -- I know 18th is very close, but when we got there, police were still -- the officers were still knocking on doors and all of that. So it was obvious to me that the officers had been there first. And so we do have some question about this whole issue of timing. And I said that to say, can't you contact the Philadelphia Police Department at 55th and Pine? They got to 67 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560 have records too about when their people were there and what those times were, and that would help to certainly deal with this issue. DEPUTY
We can provide you any of that. Obviously I have access to all of that. I have seen all of that. I'll be glad to provide that to the Chair.
I think that that's important, because the people that live right on the block are saying a different time, which is much more than just two minutes or three minutes that you said, three minutes and 45 seconds. I was wondering -- and I guess for each fire it's different. Five structures were impacted by this fire, and is there -- I know it depends on -- I would think it depends on the size of the structure and maybe some other factors, but it sounds like when the young lady was testifying that her house was burning and the Fire Department still was not 68 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560 there. Am I correct? MS. DeSHIELDS: Yes.
So that was like the fourth house or the fifth house. Does it normally happen that suddenly -- COMMISSIONER AYERS: Yes.
-- that the fire starts and then spreads just that quick? COMMISSIONER AYERS: Yes. But before I continue, I'd like to say to those residents and offer again to them, I am sorry for what happened to you and offer my condolences again to the family, as I did when I came out that night. And I understand how they feel, and those feelings that they expressed as far as the hurt, the pain, we see that at every fire. We see that all the time, and it resonates even more when there's a life lost. And we are not non-caring. We do care. 69 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560
I think that -- COMMISSIONER AYERS: But what I would like to say is that it is a tragedy, and we feel that. And we do understand what their point is with time and all of those other things, and we will continue to do as well as we can in the Fire Department to help the citizens that need our help.
We know that you guys do a good job, but I think right now response time is so important with this brown-out. COMMISSIONER AYERS: The specific question that you asked is how could that type of damage happen in that period of time. When we stopped and we talked --
You're saying, what, three minutes five houses started burning? If they got there -- COMMISSIONER AYERS: I'm not sure. I can't say that, but I can say -- 70 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560
If they got there in three minutes and 45 seconds and that house was already burning, the fourth and fifth house was already on fire. COMMISSIONER AYERS: Well, what I'm saying is, in understanding fire behavior, because that's what we do, we try to understand fire behavior, and from the investigation that I had -- that I received from my fire marshals, the fire that broke out in that living room in that sofa area enveloped that entire living room. It broke out of the window, which the fire will do. It broke out of the front window, came out and mushroomed along those porch roofs and took those other porch roofs. Fire goes inside every little area that it's in, and it travels up areas that you would -- small orifices and cracks that you wouldn't think about. But it did that and it did damage those homes, and it can do that in a short 71 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560 period of time. We don't know exactly how long the fire was burning before it broke out. The fire marshal was real clear on where the origin of the fire was, on how the fire started and what happens as far as before it was contained by the firefighters. And that can happen and it happens often in row houses with porch roofs, very often.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Good afternoon, gentlemen. I just want to get on a question, the same kind of question I asked Mr. Gault, and I think Councilwoman Blackwell brought it up. I don't think we quite addressed it. The issue of the taking the firefighters off for training as opposed to the brown-outs. You heard Mr. Gault's explanation that he feels that there is, 72 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560 I think he would call, a significant difference, because they can be called right back to the scene reasonably quickly, where right now the firefighters are not there at all. Do you have a reaction to that? COMMISSIONER AYERS: No. That was correct. Those companies are out of service. They are temporarily deactivated. If they were at the Academy for a second alarm, they would have been called back to quarters. They would not necessarily have been called to the scene of the fire, because we have other resources. We wouldn't send a company that's going to take minutes to get 18 there to a second alarm unless they were 19 in the area and we saw that the response 20 time for that company was comparable to what was needed at that alarm. So that is true. They are out of service, and we have made some adjustments for that. It's difficult to manage, but we are managing that. 73 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560
Okay. And I appreciate that. And as far as -- and I certainly want to concur with Councilwoman Blackwell on what you said. You yourself and your department have worked really hard on fire prevention, and you've come to some events I've had, and you certainly have made a tremendous impact on that. But I know you and your other officials always say that in fire, seconds count. That's why you need smoke detectors, that kind of thing. And with the brown-out policy, I know you still feel that people are safe, you're responding within what you call the required time, but I guess is it accurate or fair to say that even if people feel -- if you feel people are safe, they're not as safe with the brown-out policy in place? COMMISSIONER AYERS: No. I think that people are as safe as they are in their environments. I believe that with a longer period of time, 20 seconds 74 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560 or whatever, that the risk level does increase. Does it increase greatly? It does not.
Okay. And, again, I'm not trying to be in any way confrontational on this question. I guess I just, getting back to Mr. Spearman's testimony, obviously if a fire station is a block away, that obviously has to make a difference in response time if that fire -- now, I don't know if it would have saved the young man's life. Obviously we'll never know that. I don't know how much more it would have saved of the properties, but clearly it's, let's call it, highly likely that there would have been a fire engine there more quickly, right? I mean, isn't that fair to say? COMMISSIONER AYERS: Well, one of the things that I will say is that if Engine 57 was in their station responding from that location, that they would have responded in less time. Would they have 75 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560 saved the young man's life? I can't play --
One thing that I would like to add is that understand that -- and, of course, when we look back and the tragedy that happened always is what we're -- is the context upon what we're dealing with here, but let's be clear that at least to the extent as possible, fire engines are moving around this city every day for a lot of different reasons, and whenever an engine leaves its company area, it is covered by another engine. So if you see an engine that is basically going someplace, you don't know where it's going, but it's not running to a fire, once they leave their quarters, they're being covered. Their local is now 76 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560 alerting the other surrounding companies to make sure that they have coverage. So at any time right now an engine that is leaving -- and I'm close to Engine 57 in West Philly. I'm close -- or Engine 54. Either one, when they leave to go do something, another local is actually covering their area. If a fire breaks out and they are someplace else trying to get back, much like it was this night, that engine was open. They were doing something else just because, and they were trying to get back because they were trying to get maintenance basically on a particular engine. That was the reason for them not being there. At least for that particular moment, they just happened to be someplace else. That can happen at any time. I keep thinking that while we look at this as looking at it through the tragedy lens, I'm looking at it as a way for looking at the professionalism of the 77 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560 Department. When that engine left, they were covered by another local, as per the regulations of the Department, and they got there well within the time and we still lost someone. I can't fault the firefighters. I can't fault anything. I can only say that that's what happened. And we end up working with them to provide what they need to go forward. So that's what I think -- we don't want to lose sight of the fact that they ended up doing their jobs in the best way and it just happened that someone lost their life.
Commissioner, Deputy Mayor, you reflected back 30 years and you said this policy has been going on a long time, but fortunately I have a pretty good memory and I recollect -- and, Commissioner Ayers, you probably have a recollection of this. I think you really need to talk 78 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560 about why that fire company, even though it was not in the brown-out mode at the moment when this fire occurred, what it was doing. And I recollect that they were going to pick up a piece of equipment, pick up a piece of equipment that was maintained; in other words, swapping a loaner for their assigned equipment. DEPUTY
Right. But I recollect the day when Fleet Management used to bring the equipment to the firehouse and do the change-out. Again, we've changed the way we do business to the point where we are possibly creating these problems. I understand that through a retired firefighter that that policy 79 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560 worked fairly well when the Fleet Management would bring the repaired piece of equipment, the firefighters would change out their personal equipment, and that fire engine got back in service almost immediately. So that firehouse was not in brown-out. It was in a mode that was going to Front and Hunting Park, which is a long distance -- DEPUTY
-- from where they are to pick up a piece of equipment. Maybe you need to reconsider the fact that that equipment should not have to be picked up by an on-duty fire company when somebody could drive it from Front and Hunting Park to the firehouse, change out the equipment, a run comes, they use the equipment that -- the loaner equipment to go do the run and come back and tell the Fleet Management guy to have a cup of coffee until we get back. 80 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560 But my point is, to send a whole company to pick up a piece of equipment at Front and Hunting Park may be part of the problem. COMMISSIONER AYERS: Many changes. And indeed, I do remember when that was the case. There's been reductions in personnel with Fleet. There's been reduction in personnel with Fire, as well as some contractual issues that prevent us from doing that. We used to put in a task force, and what we would do is, we would take one or two firefighters from that task force, send them up, and they would pick up the piece.
Right. And my last comment, since I'm taking only another 30 seconds here, Deputy Mayor, the departments that you're responsible for public safety are Prisons? DEPUTY
I have budgetary oversight of the courts, DA, Public Defender. I also have the RISE agency and the Mayor's Office of Faith Initiatives that also report to me.
This is probably the most drastic budget reduction act that you've initiated. I can't -- I don't see anything like this in the Police Department. Maybe we just don't see it. DEPUTY
I don't think you see it, but we've been controlling overtime in the Police Department. I'm down about $6.7 million last year and I'm looking to get about another 8.6 million this year.
82 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560 Absolutely. We took $15 million out of the Prisons last year. I'm sure each of you are aware of that, and we are looking for another reduction out of the Prisons of somewhere on the order of 6.7 million.
So the reason this is so visible, it's because it's a public -- it's outside the prison wall, it's -- DEPUTY
Right. Public safety -- let's be clear. My departments make up about, depending on how you count it, 1.1, 1.3 billion dollars of the City's budget. I know that there is -- we have done what we can to protect and to realign public safety. We've been very efficient in how we deal with it. We are committed to public safety being number one, but one of the things that going through these budget hearings and going through budget reductions has taught me over the last three years now is that I came in to kind of build and rebuild the public safety 83 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560 network that was here in the City, and as a result of the economy, I've had to actually strategically try to maintain as much as possible. I gave my word to people that I would not cut and I would not lay off any active firefighter, nor any active police officer, nor any active prison guard. I said I wanted to maintain jobs at all costs, and I've kept my word and the word of the Mayor to the people that we made that pledge to. What we are trying to do is manage within the contracts that we have and to do it fairly. If public safety took no cuts, we would be decimating the rest of City government, literally. There would not be a Commerce Department, there would not be an economic development department. So public safety has to take its responsibility, and there is no part of government that is run so efficiently that it can't stand a little bit of cut. What we are trying to do and 84 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560 what I've asked everyone that I work with, whether it's union chief or whatever, is that this is all I have in front of me as my options. But I'm a guy that thinks outside the box. I think each of you, I've come to you in one way or the other and I think I've demonstrated that on a number of different ways, and I'm willing to do anything to make sure that this Administration can achieve its goals without harming where we are. And we do that day by day. I got great commissioners, Giorla, Ramsey and Ayers, and they are managing what we have in this environment, and we have kept our word. I agree with you that policies always are being reevaluated. I am flexible enough to try and do with what I can, but I only have a limited amount of money and I have to deal with it that way, and overtime is my only way of controlling costs. 85 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560
But, again, just to end it, it has to be clear that this engine company was in service but not to fight a fire. DEPUTY
And that policy of going from that location or any location to Front and Hunting Park to pick up a piece of apparatus to me doesn't make any sense. DEPUTY
I understand. Councilman, you know, as I say, there are -- this was not -- that's why -- this was not a result of the brown-out at all. Your question is right on point. It is correct that the policy of swapping is really what kind of at least precipitated one company being out as opposed to being down. 86 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560 So we are looking at that particular policy and we're seeing how we can actually deal with it. I'd like to get flexibility within all partners so we can end up saying, You know what, maybe if we could use labor in a different way, we would not have to take the company out. But we need to have reality, and the reality is go to a task force for an hour, go to -- can I have that kind of flexibility? I'm willing to talk about all of that, but I need partners to talk with.
But if you look back, it was the brown-out that kept that piece of equipment from being picked up and the firehouse was closed all day and Fleet Management, even if they wanted to bring it back, there was nobody to bring it to. DEPUTY
But the bottom line is that the fire equipment itself -- one of the things that happened is Fleet said that the equipment might 87 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560 have been ready. When the professionals who actually depend on that piece of equipment did the analysis, the equipment was not ready.
If you're willing to look at it and see if there's a different way -- DEPUTY
And thank you, Councilman Clarke, for allowing me to speak, because I heard the same story. After they went there to pick it up, it wasn't fixed. So that -- COMMISSIONER AYERS: Councilwoman -- DEPUTY
There was actually another piece of it. If you recall, we indicated there was another 88 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560 piece that was broken on the -- COMMISSIONER AYERS: It was fixed. What it went up there for, it was fixed. One of the issues was, it being there for a period of time caused another issue, and that was what was not operating. So they had to fix that in addition to what it originally went up for. So it wasn't anybody's fault to look at, like Fleet Management.
But I think the Committee can see there were a million things that were going wrong. I remember that on Inside Story, I remember when this issue came up one Sunday morning and Marjorie Margolies-Mezvinsky said, Oh, the Mayor has got a new policy -- of course, I'm paraphrasing -- for these fire stations. If it works, boy, he's done a great thing, but if it doesn't, if we have a big fire, God bless us all, and certainly about two weeks later, we had a fire. And, finally, my last 89 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560 comment -- thank you again, Councilman Clarke. And I'm recalling that -- because he and I have several fire stations. You have some areas that have two or three and you have some areas that may have none. So certainly when you give us your criteria for setting these brown-outs up, we would certainly like that addressed. Thank you, Councilman, and thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Councilwoman Blackwell. Councilman Clarke.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Good afternoon, gentlemen. DEPUTY COMMISSIONER GILLISON: Good afternoon. COMMISSIONER AYERS: Good afternoon, sir.
Let me start by saying that I'm not going to try to be a firefighter and I don't want to 90 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560 ask you to be a politician. We do what we do and hopefully at the very best for the citizens. But I do have a couple of questions. One is somewhat of a technical nature, and I understand that it was asked earlier about some of the criteria associated with the selection process. And, Deputy, I know you said you don't have those specific answers, but I do want to ask questions associated with that and then the other realignments, because this is not the first time that we were in these Chambers talking about changes in fire stations' operation. I can recall going to a meeting in Fishtown last year in part of the district I represent and the guys were outside with the signs and wanting to know what was going on as it related to fire station closures. When you do your analysis for making these determinations on what changes in the fire station deployments of ladders, the various apparatus, do you 91 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560 do them on an annual basis or you just do them when you're ready to have some budget reduction issue before you? DEPUTY
We're constantly looking at data and we're constantly looking at matters. I know that we have been putting in the ability to do things more in an automated way. We've had to improve the CAD, or the computer-assisted dispatch system. So we have been able to accomplish that in the last year. That will help the Commissioner with his analysis tools. But we're always looking at getting more analysis tools so that he can have another tool in his tool belt.
Usually it's the same kind of work -- it's usually the utilization hour rates and we look at what's the workload of the particular departments, and we follow that. I've been doing that now in 92 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560 PhillyStat for the last two years. Whenever I would have the Department come in to present, we do an analysis of what are they doing, how are they doing it, how many times are they doing it, what's the response times, where are we having problems. We usually map out the data and put it up on the screen so we can get a better handle of where things need to be improved and is there a way to economize within the Department to meet that goal.
So you're always looking at possible realignments or readjustments regardless of the budget? DEPUTY
But in this particular case, it was budget driven? DEPUTY
In terms of the areas -- and the reason I'm asking this question is about a particular location in my district. Councilwoman 93 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560 said that we have a number of challenging locations. At 19th and Oxford, I happen to ride by there a lot, and it's this sign sitting out there -- and it's extremely troubling to me -- that basically says, Well, you got a fire today? Sorry, we're closed. And this is right on the sidewalk of a number of brand new homes, and I saw it most recently last week. We were out with the Mayor. We were cutting the ribbon for the last of 300 houses that were built over a period of years. In your analysis, one of the things you talked about is the geographic area, and I don't know if you're just talking about the travel time or the demographics of the neighborhood as it relates to structures and houses. DEPUTY
Mostly, 94 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560 because we have to get there within a certain period of time.
So do you take into account that in that particular neighborhood three years ago, there were virtually no homes there? Now, fortunately -- and I know Councilwoman Blackwell is going to be taking a dig at me about me getting all the housing money after the hearing --
-- but fortunately we're in a position we have virtually a brand new neighborhood over there. Are those kind of analysis made now that you have 300 new homes in the area where you want to be in a position to have fire coverage? Because I'm assuming based on that sign saying that we're closed -- and I actually don't know if it's closed in its entirety or is it as a result of brown-out. First tell me 95 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560 about your analysis associated with the physical conditions within the neighborhood and then talk to me, if you can, about that specific location and where the coverage comes from from there, because I do believe that 28th and Thompson also has some issues. COMMISSIONER AYERS: 28th and Thompson, as well as 19th and Oxford where you're talking about, 27's and 34's.
And that's like right -- that's pretty close in proximity. COMMISSIONER AYERS: That's right. First of all, that's not our sign and it's an unauthorized sign.
When you say "our sign," I'm assuming the City's sign. 96 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560 COMMISSIONER AYERS: It's a union sign, and it says something that -- we wouldn't put that up to try to scare the neighbors for sure.
When I asked the question, I didn't mean to imply that the Philadelphia Fire Department or the City of Philadelphia put it up, but I just wanted to reference the fact that it may be factual. COMMISSIONER AYERS: Well, it's not -- it's a temporary deactivation. Engine 27 is one of those companies that's on the list. It has a very small local. It's surrounded in each direction with other companies that come in and support it, as the same with Engine 34.
Geographically. COMMISSIONER AYERS: It probably has one of the smallest footprints in the entire City, but we use 97 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560 that --
What's the next -- what's the closest one? COMMISSIONER AYERS: Engine 34.
Which is Thompson? COMMISSIONER AYERS: That's correct. And also you have Engine 10 that surrounds it. 11
Does 12 Thompson have rolling brown-outs? 13 COMMISSIONER AYERS: Yes, it does. DEPUTY
But they don't go at the same time. They're not put together -- I mean, obviously what geographic location means is that the closer that you have fire companies, that we're able to take one out, leave the other one --
What's the 98 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560 closest -- the next closest to those two? COMMISSIONER AYERS: You have Engine 13, Engine 50, Engine 34 all surrounding that. Yeah, Engine 13, that's correct.
You can tell me -- I'm not as familiar with the -- COMMISSIONER AYERS: 16th and Ridge.
All right. I just need it because this sign is really -- COMMISSIONER AYERS: Those things are considered.
The 99 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560 people -- matter of fact, the people in the new houses are always asking me, saying, Councilman -- COMMISSIONER AYERS: That good housing, Councilman, I'm happy about that housing, because that's state-of-the-art housing. They have -- they may not have the sprinklers that we're going after, but they do have the interconnected smoke alarms. The risk level is reduced greatly. They have new wiring. They have new heaters. They have new systems that work. And, as you know, what was replaced is the old knob-and-tube wiring, old oil heaters, all of those things that have been hazards to our community. So every time I see a housing project go up, I'm right there and I'm clapping, because what it does is, it not just helps the community and helps the whole City, it helps what the burden is on the Fire Department, on the firefighters. Those are less houses that our men and our women have to go into. 100 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560 Those are less houses that our men and women have to knock on the door to go and install a smoke alarm and a carbon monoxide alarm. So that's the highest level of safety that the Fire Department looks at. So we support you. We feel that as you move through and continue to rebuild, rehab, all of those things, that takes the burden down, and those are the things that allow us to take another look at how we're actually servicing our citizens, the efficiencies, the effectiveness, the footprint, all of those things, planning for 2035, if you will, planning on the short term for 2015, our strategic plan, what are those things as related to what's going on in each individual fire safety and education district. Those are the things that we look at, and it's a very important part of what we do.
Great. Two things. One, I may need you because I'm 101 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560 asked a lot, because the new residents moved in, about the sign and their concern about it. So at some point, I may need you to come out and just kind of communicate to people exactly what's going on. COMMISSIONER AYERS: Absolutely.
Two, in terms of what you just said about being supportive of us continuing to build higher quality standard that's less likely to burn, I wish you could communicate that to the Mayor so he can be a little more aggressive in providing some additional funding for us to build more of that quality housing. COMMISSIONER AYERS: Yes, sir.
Thank you. Councilwoman Blackwell. 102 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560
Thank you. I know, I've seen this Fire Commissioner at PHA openings, I've seen him at the announcements. I know firsthand of the partnerships he's created with his department and in building new homes and new public housing. So we commend him for that. I just think, Mr. Gillison, that albeit you have a budget, some things have to be exempted from cuts due to money. It's that simple. Some things have to be exempted, and this is one area where life -- where the difference of life or death are -- where the devil meets the road, we're right there. This is so very, very important and can make a difference between people living and people dying, and I think this is an area that should be exempt from cuts. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you. And I agree. 103 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560 Can I ask this: How much money does the EMS contribute to the Fire Department's budget? Because when people use the emergency, aren't their insurance companies or their personal self, they're billed to that. So how much revenue does that generate? DEPUTY
We've suggested that we raise the revenue. If you recall, Council did go along with our request to raise the amount of revenue that we could possibly get out of the response from EMS. I think we're budgeted at $37 million in revenue to come in, up from about million, if I 17 remember when I first started. 18 COMMISSIONER AYERS: That's 19 correct. 20
We 104 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560 started the new rate last year and we collected -- we budgeted this year for 37 million. I think that last year we ended up coming in about 33 million. COMMISSIONER AYERS: Thirty or 33, within that area, yes. DEPUTY
Thirty to 33 million is what we actually collected. It was still up significantly from the previous time. And we did use that in order to help budget for the deficits that we were anticipating. So the additional revenue that was brought in helped us not to have to cut even more.
Yeah. I've been taking -- I mean, we've been taking -- public safety has not been 105 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560 immune from this budget crisis. I mean, it was -- as this Council knows, I mean, you guys did the heavy lifting. You had to bite the bullet and do some things that I'm sure you did not necessarily come into office to do, but you had to do it in order to make sure the City was safe. We have to do the same thing in response.
We understand that. I just really wanted to know -- I was actually thinking that the EMS revenue could offset the $3 million budget deficit. DEPUTY
That's already been planned for in the budget that you passed going into this year.
Well, we'll have to look at that at the next budget, won't we? Okay. Thank you. DEPUTY
106 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560 Councilman Jones.
Thank you, Madam Chair. First of all, I absolutely know you to be professionals, Deputy Mayor of Public Safety and Commissioner of the Fire Department. I know you to be professionals. I am concerned deeply about the safety of this city. This hearing is not one of those "I gotcha" kind of things. This is really trying to understand the rationale, methodology, cost savings of brown-outs, and I want to start with asking, you said this has been a 30-year-old policy, if I think that was the quote. So somewhere in the 1980s somebody decided. What was the rationale in brown-outs? I don't understand why it was created. COMMISSIONER AYERS: The temporary deactivations happen every day in the Philadelphia Fire Department. For the most part, they are for continuing education for the firefighters, 107 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560 continuing training. We have to have that training. We can't just run a fire department without making sure that we maintain our certifications as a professional fire department, make sure that those skill-sets for the paramedics as well as the firefighters aren't kept up. So in order to do that, across the fire service, not just in Philadelphia, those temporary deactivations have been on a daily basis.
So in the '80s, my question is, somebody said the only way to train our firefighting professionals is to turn the lights out in some of the stations? That was the only way that they felt at that time this could be achieved? COMMISSIONER AYERS: Well, I couldn't go back and hit that assumption on the head on exactly what was said and what was had at those meetings, but it turned out to be that you take the fire company, the fire company goes to the 108 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560 academy in whatever jurisdiction it is and the surrounding companies now take up the response area for the company that's being trained. And that happens all over the country.
So in the Police Department, we don't have brown-outs? COMMISSIONER AYERS: I couldn't speak for the -- DEPUTY
No, we don't, because we go through training, and then training is done there --
They do training at the beginning, and then there is some training that is done during their career. It is not as extensive and continuous as the Fire Department, although that's something we are 109 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560 considering in order to help retrain the Police Department as well.
So my question becomes, what is the training that they are receiving for an eight-hour period that will warrant this kind of course of action in order for them to achieve it? What happens for eight hours that can't happen at some other point when we have a more systematic approach to making sure that our professionals that need this training get it? Why is brown-out and why is that training at that time? Because as I look at my district, there are firehouses that close every 12 days since August 1 in order to achieve this. What is so paramount that happens at that training that can't happen at some other point in time to prevent brown-outs? COMMISSIONER AYERS: Well, the temporary deactivations, they happen, and they happen so that we can take a company and take those men and women up to the 110 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560 Fire Academy, and most often -- the training is various, but most often what that training components will be is, you'll have some classroom time probably in the morning and some hands-on activities on the training tower or in some other situation in the afternoons. So they break that up and they'll have training in the morning and the afternoons. Sometimes there may only be morning training for a particular company, but most oftentimes when we have a full day of training, that's what it consists of.
So a week during the summer is not as good as every 12 days or -- when a company is deactivated, they are going to fill the spot of other firefighters that are at training. How long is the duration of the training for those companies engaged in training? COMMISSIONER AYERS: The training is usually from 9:00 a.m. -- 111 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560
One day? COMMISSIONER AYERS: It depends on what the training is. Sometimes we have citywide training where we may require two days of training per company, but it's usually from 9:00 until 5:00.
So is there some thought process given to instead of shutting down, opening up, shutting down, opening up to say that a schedule that says you're going to go up for a week, we're going to take you to like what they do in the Reserves where you go away on maneuvers for two weeks just to sharpen your skills. Has anyone done a study to say that there might be a better methodology than the onesies, twosies that we do now? COMMISSIONER AYERS: Well, that's something that we certainly will look at as you bring it up. However, one of the things that we have to keep in mind, that the training, I say again, is various. It's various certifications, 112 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560 refreshments as far as requirements for the firefighters, some things that are mandated by state, some things that are federally mandated and some things that are just common sensical type of things that --
I don't -- we are not -- I want a firefighter to be on top of his professional game. We do not -- COMMISSIONER AYERS: His or her. Absolutely.
We are not at cross purposes at that, but is there a better way of obtaining that training that might be more cost effective and less hazardous, whether that's real or perception -- to some people it's real -- that we could deploy them in a contiguous point of time that might relieve the need for -- every 12 days I'm looking at this Russian roulette, and I hear what you're saying about it doesn't jeopardize us, but just the mental concept that this -- 113 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560 61st and Thompson is closed today and I have family that live -- matter of fact, you live within that area -- DEPUTY
-- Deputy Mayor, which is interesting. But I just want to know if we spent a couple of dollars to look at how we deliver training that might be a way that is less intrusive by way of shutting down stations. And if you by the time we do the budget can give this Chair that answer, that would be helpful to me. DEPUTY
Not a problem. We have looked at different ways of providing training, and we will have an answer and can provide it at that time.
Now, the second piece that I would have is that all of this is over about $3 million, give or take a couple hundred thousand. DEPUTY
Yes; 3.8 million. 114 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560
So how many Fire Department personnel would it take to create a unit that just dealt with brown-outs or coverage, meaning how many people are in the average fire company? COMMISSIONER AYERS: An engine company?
Engine company. COMMISSIONER AYERS: Four members. A ladder company, five members.
So we're talking about a total of about a dozen firefighters? COMMISSIONER AYERS: We use 17 firefighters per day. 18
At a 19 particular -- if I were to cover two 20 shifts. 21 COMMISSIONER AYERS: Yes. 22
So we're 23 talking about 25 firefighters. 24 COMMISSIONER AYERS: Yes. 25
And what 115 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560 does that come to on average salary annually, 25? If you were to divide the average firefighter's salary, how much is that? COMMISSIONER AYERS: Well, that's going to come up to $3.8 million or close to it when we finish for a year. So if you divide it by -- I think my 10 Deputy for Administrative Services is 11 working on that right now. 12
Is he close 13 to accurate? A nod will do. 14 Okay. The boss is always 15 accurate, you said? Okay. All right. 16 Is it true or do you disagree 17 that there are 300 vacancies? 18 COMMISSIONER AYERS: I 19 disagree. 20
And what is 21 that disagreement? 22 COMMISSIONER AYERS: The 23 disagreement is, our budget -- our count 24 for members in the fire service has 25 decreased with the budget reductions. 116 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560
So how many vacancies do we have? COMMISSIONER AYERS: We're somewhere around 60 or 70 vacancies, 80 firefighters.
So currently we have the capacity to hire those firefighters within the appropriated budget? COMMISSIONER AYERS: There's a hiring freeze on, but if we were allowed to, yes, we could.
This Council appropriated enough money for 80 more positions; is that accurate? COMMISSIONER AYERS: Yes, that's accurate. DEPUTY
And to solve this problem, we wouldn't even have to go to the full 80, but just about 25? DEPUTY
No, that's not correct. 117 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560
The reason -- if you ended up -- you have to remember, we have a budget that we are trying to hit that actually requires $3.8 million less. If we hired 80 firefighters, we would actually be above the budget, not out of Class 100, but out of the other attenuated classes. So, I mean, you know how we end up making up the difference. We have budgeted somewhere on the order of $28 million in overtime. This strategy saves us 3 million of the 28. So the Class 100 dollars is -- and I don't know what it is right now offhand, but it's X. We have $25 million available for overtime, and the only way to hit the dollars that we need to hit is to take the 3 million -- originally we came to you and we asked for 28. We can't provide 28. We can only do 25. So that's what the delta is, it's the $3.8 million. If we end up 118 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560 trying to hire 80 additional firefighters, we would spend more money than we would have than less.
So question. Simple math for me. If through a transfer ordinance we were to find you $3.5 million, would it be spent on hiring those firefighters? 10 DEPUTY
I would 11 welcome the opportunity to talk with both 12 the Chair and you about that. Because I 13 look at the budget not just -- and even 14 though -- and a lot of my other deputy 15 mayors tell me I'm rather possessive 16 about public safety, and I do believe 17 public safety is number one, but 18 obviously it would depend on how you 19 would impact the other things that we are 20 trying to get done in the City and you 21 have that same issue. 22
Okay. 23 That's fair. But if we were not to 24 disturb your sensibilities about where it 25 came from and we could find 3.4, 3.5 119 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560 million dollars, would it be used for hiring that, quote, round about 4 firefighters so that we could eliminate 5 blackouts forever? 6 DEPUTY
Well, I 7 don't know whether it would be forever, 8 but I would suggest that before I would 9 give an answer yay or nay, that I would 10 have to exactly go back and take a look 11 at that. But I would like to have that 12 conversation. I'm open to that 13 conversation, as you know. 14
Have 15 there -- and final question. Have there 16 been any other deaths in the areas where 17 there were blackouts, fire fatalities? 18 COMMISSIONER AYERS: We don't 19 have any deaths in those areas where we 20 have the temporary deactivations. 21
There's 22 never been -- 23 COMMISSIONER AYERS: If you're 24 talking about 55th Street, why we're 25 here -- 120 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560
No, no. I'm talking about where you have the blackouts, citywide, has there ever been an occasion where there was a fire fatality during a blackout period? COMMISSIONER AYERS: No. 8 DEPUTY
Let me say it again. There was one -- I'm not saying caused. I didn't say what caused it. That's for us to argue at another point. What I asked you specifically was, is there a time in a geographic area where there was an engine blackout or a ladder blackout where there was at the same time of the blackout a fire fatality? COMMISSIONER AYERS: I would say that researching the data, you would be able to say yes. And you're talking about some training or something where a first-in company was not in their location and other companies came. I 121 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560 will say if you researched the data historically, I will say that that's a yes.
Do you think it's worth researching? COMMISSIONER AYERS: Oh, absolutely it is. Yes, it's worth it.
You're going to get the Chair that information? COMMISSIONER AYERS: Absolutely.
Thank you, Madam Chair. COMMISSIONER AYERS: Since we have started in August 1, outside of the discussions that we're having about 55th Street, the answer would be no. 19
Thank you, Madam Chair. 122 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560 Just one question, and I'm sorry. This may have been asked before and I missed it. In your testimony, Commissioner, you say due to minimum staffing requirements, the Fire Department is required to ensure a designated number of firefighters always staffing a company. What is that number? How is it determined? COMMISSIONER AYERS: That number is determined by the number of companies covering 11 battalions in the City, and that is per shift. So that number hovers somewhere around 455 to somewhere in that area, 476.
That's total? Okay. COMMISSIONER AYERS: That's correct.
Thank you, Councilman Greenlee. 123 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560 I want to thank everyone for coming out today. We appreciate your time. We all agree that -- we all concur that the Fire Department does a really good job, and this hearing, as Councilman Jones said, is not about who to blame. We just are nervous about the brown-outs and we would like to do whatever we can to help. So we want to recess this hearing to the call of the Chair. Thank you again for coming out. COMMISSIONER AYERS: Thank you very much, Chairwoman. You've always supported us and we do appreciate everything. Thank you. (Committee on Public Safety adjourned at 3:50 p.m.) - - - 124 CERTIFICATE I HEREBY CERTIFY that the proceedings, evidence and objections are contained fully and accurately in the stenographic notes taken by me upon the foregoing matter on October 19, 2010, and that this is a true and correct transcript of same. -------------------- MICHELE L. MURPHY RPR-Notary Public (The foregoing certification of this transcript does not apply to any reproduction of the same by any means, unless under the direct control and/or supervision of the certifying reporter.)