When you say "our sign," I'm assuming the City's sign. 96 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560 COMMISSIONER AYERS: It's a union sign, and it says something that -- we wouldn't put that up to try to scare the neighbors for sure.
When I asked the question, I didn't mean to imply that the Philadelphia Fire Department or the City of Philadelphia put it up, but I just wanted to reference the fact that it may be factual. COMMISSIONER AYERS: Well, it's not -- it's a temporary deactivation. Engine 27 is one of those companies that's on the list. It has a very small local. It's surrounded in each direction with other companies that come in and support it, as the same with Engine 34.
Geographically. COMMISSIONER AYERS: It probably has one of the smallest footprints in the entire City, but we use 97 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560 that --
What's the next -- what's the closest one? COMMISSIONER AYERS: Engine 34.
Which is Thompson? COMMISSIONER AYERS: That's correct. And also you have Engine 10 that surrounds it. 11
Does 12 Thompson have rolling brown-outs? 13 COMMISSIONER AYERS: Yes, it does. DEPUTY
But they don't go at the same time. They're not put together -- I mean, obviously what geographic location means is that the closer that you have fire companies, that we're able to take one out, leave the other one --
What's the 98 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560 closest -- the next closest to those two? COMMISSIONER AYERS: You have Engine 13, Engine 50, Engine 34 all surrounding that. Yeah, Engine 13, that's correct.
You can tell me -- I'm not as familiar with the -- COMMISSIONER AYERS: 16th and Ridge.
All right. I just need it because this sign is really -- COMMISSIONER AYERS: Those things are considered.
The 99 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560 people -- matter of fact, the people in the new houses are always asking me, saying, Councilman -- COMMISSIONER AYERS: That good housing, Councilman, I'm happy about that housing, because that's state-of-the-art housing. They have -- they may not have the sprinklers that we're going after, but they do have the interconnected smoke alarms. The risk level is reduced greatly. They have new wiring. They have new heaters. They have new systems that work. And, as you know, what was replaced is the old knob-and-tube wiring, old oil heaters, all of those things that have been hazards to our community. So every time I see a housing project go up, I'm right there and I'm clapping, because what it does is, it not just helps the community and helps the whole City, it helps what the burden is on the Fire Department, on the firefighters. Those are less houses that our men and our women have to go into. 100 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560 Those are less houses that our men and women have to knock on the door to go and install a smoke alarm and a carbon monoxide alarm. So that's the highest level of safety that the Fire Department looks at. So we support you. We feel that as you move through and continue to rebuild, rehab, all of those things, that takes the burden down, and those are the things that allow us to take another look at how we're actually servicing our citizens, the efficiencies, the effectiveness, the footprint, all of those things, planning for 2035, if you will, planning on the short term for 2015, our strategic plan, what are those things as related to what's going on in each individual fire safety and education district. Those are the things that we look at, and it's a very important part of what we do.
Great. Two things. One, I may need you because I'm 101 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560 asked a lot, because the new residents moved in, about the sign and their concern about it. So at some point, I may need you to come out and just kind of communicate to people exactly what's going on. COMMISSIONER AYERS: Absolutely.
Two, in terms of what you just said about being supportive of us continuing to build higher quality standard that's less likely to burn, I wish you could communicate that to the Mayor so he can be a little more aggressive in providing some additional funding for us to build more of that quality housing. COMMISSIONER AYERS: Yes, sir.
Thank you. Councilwoman Blackwell. 102 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560
Thank you. I know, I've seen this Fire Commissioner at PHA openings, I've seen him at the announcements. I know firsthand of the partnerships he's created with his department and in building new homes and new public housing. So we commend him for that. I just think, Mr. Gillison, that albeit you have a budget, some things have to be exempted from cuts due to money. It's that simple. Some things have to be exempted, and this is one area where life -- where the difference of life or death are -- where the devil meets the road, we're right there. This is so very, very important and can make a difference between people living and people dying, and I think this is an area that should be exempt from cuts. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you. And I agree. 103 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560 Can I ask this: How much money does the EMS contribute to the Fire Department's budget? Because when people use the emergency, aren't their insurance companies or their personal self, they're billed to that. So how much revenue does that generate? DEPUTY
We've suggested that we raise the revenue. If you recall, Council did go along with our request to raise the amount of revenue that we could possibly get out of the response from EMS. I think we're budgeted at $37 million in revenue to come in, up from about million, if I 17 remember when I first started. 18 COMMISSIONER AYERS: That's 19 correct. 20
We 104 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560 started the new rate last year and we collected -- we budgeted this year for 37 million. I think that last year we ended up coming in about 33 million. COMMISSIONER AYERS: Thirty or 33, within that area, yes. DEPUTY
Thirty to 33 million is what we actually collected. It was still up significantly from the previous time. And we did use that in order to help budget for the deficits that we were anticipating. So the additional revenue that was brought in helped us not to have to cut even more.
Yeah. I've been taking -- I mean, we've been taking -- public safety has not been 105 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560 immune from this budget crisis. I mean, it was -- as this Council knows, I mean, you guys did the heavy lifting. You had to bite the bullet and do some things that I'm sure you did not necessarily come into office to do, but you had to do it in order to make sure the City was safe. We have to do the same thing in response.
We understand that. I just really wanted to know -- I was actually thinking that the EMS revenue could offset the $3 million budget deficit. DEPUTY
That's already been planned for in the budget that you passed going into this year.
Well, we'll have to look at that at the next budget, won't we? Okay. Thank you. DEPUTY
106 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560 Councilman Jones.
Thank you, Madam Chair. First of all, I absolutely know you to be professionals, Deputy Mayor of Public Safety and Commissioner of the Fire Department. I know you to be professionals. I am concerned deeply about the safety of this city. This hearing is not one of those "I gotcha" kind of things. This is really trying to understand the rationale, methodology, cost savings of brown-outs, and I want to start with asking, you said this has been a 30-year-old policy, if I think that was the quote. So somewhere in the 1980s somebody decided. What was the rationale in brown-outs? I don't understand why it was created. COMMISSIONER AYERS: The temporary deactivations happen every day in the Philadelphia Fire Department. For the most part, they are for continuing education for the firefighters, 107 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560 continuing training. We have to have that training. We can't just run a fire department without making sure that we maintain our certifications as a professional fire department, make sure that those skill-sets for the paramedics as well as the firefighters aren't kept up. So in order to do that, across the fire service, not just in Philadelphia, those temporary deactivations have been on a daily basis.
So in the '80s, my question is, somebody said the only way to train our firefighting professionals is to turn the lights out in some of the stations? That was the only way that they felt at that time this could be achieved? COMMISSIONER AYERS: Well, I couldn't go back and hit that assumption on the head on exactly what was said and what was had at those meetings, but it turned out to be that you take the fire company, the fire company goes to the 108 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560 academy in whatever jurisdiction it is and the surrounding companies now take up the response area for the company that's being trained. And that happens all over the country.
So in the Police Department, we don't have brown-outs? COMMISSIONER AYERS: I couldn't speak for the -- DEPUTY
No, we don't, because we go through training, and then training is done there --
They do training at the beginning, and then there is some training that is done during their career. It is not as extensive and continuous as the Fire Department, although that's something we are 109 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560 considering in order to help retrain the Police Department as well.
So my question becomes, what is the training that they are receiving for an eight-hour period that will warrant this kind of course of action in order for them to achieve it? What happens for eight hours that can't happen at some other point when we have a more systematic approach to making sure that our professionals that need this training get it? Why is brown-out and why is that training at that time? Because as I look at my district, there are firehouses that close every 12 days since August 1 in order to achieve this. What is so paramount that happens at that training that can't happen at some other point in time to prevent brown-outs? COMMISSIONER AYERS: Well, the temporary deactivations, they happen, and they happen so that we can take a company and take those men and women up to the 110 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560 Fire Academy, and most often -- the training is various, but most often what that training components will be is, you'll have some classroom time probably in the morning and some hands-on activities on the training tower or in some other situation in the afternoons. So they break that up and they'll have training in the morning and the afternoons. Sometimes there may only be morning training for a particular company, but most oftentimes when we have a full day of training, that's what it consists of.
So a week during the summer is not as good as every 12 days or -- when a company is deactivated, they are going to fill the spot of other firefighters that are at training. How long is the duration of the training for those companies engaged in training? COMMISSIONER AYERS: The training is usually from 9:00 a.m. -- 111 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560
One day? COMMISSIONER AYERS: It depends on what the training is. Sometimes we have citywide training where we may require two days of training per company, but it's usually from 9:00 until 5:00.
So is there some thought process given to instead of shutting down, opening up, shutting down, opening up to say that a schedule that says you're going to go up for a week, we're going to take you to like what they do in the Reserves where you go away on maneuvers for two weeks just to sharpen your skills. Has anyone done a study to say that there might be a better methodology than the onesies, twosies that we do now? COMMISSIONER AYERS: Well, that's something that we certainly will look at as you bring it up. However, one of the things that we have to keep in mind, that the training, I say again, is various. It's various certifications, 112 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560 refreshments as far as requirements for the firefighters, some things that are mandated by state, some things that are federally mandated and some things that are just common sensical type of things that --
I don't -- we are not -- I want a firefighter to be on top of his professional game. We do not -- COMMISSIONER AYERS: His or her. Absolutely.
We are not at cross purposes at that, but is there a better way of obtaining that training that might be more cost effective and less hazardous, whether that's real or perception -- to some people it's real -- that we could deploy them in a contiguous point of time that might relieve the need for -- every 12 days I'm looking at this Russian roulette, and I hear what you're saying about it doesn't jeopardize us, but just the mental concept that this -- 113 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560 61st and Thompson is closed today and I have family that live -- matter of fact, you live within that area -- DEPUTY
-- Deputy Mayor, which is interesting. But I just want to know if we spent a couple of dollars to look at how we deliver training that might be a way that is less intrusive by way of shutting down stations. And if you by the time we do the budget can give this Chair that answer, that would be helpful to me. DEPUTY
Not a problem. We have looked at different ways of providing training, and we will have an answer and can provide it at that time.
Now, the second piece that I would have is that all of this is over about $3 million, give or take a couple hundred thousand. DEPUTY
Yes; 3.8 million. 114 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560
So how many Fire Department personnel would it take to create a unit that just dealt with brown-outs or coverage, meaning how many people are in the average fire company? COMMISSIONER AYERS: An engine company?
Engine company. COMMISSIONER AYERS: Four members. A ladder company, five members.
So we're talking about a total of about a dozen firefighters? COMMISSIONER AYERS: We use 17 firefighters per day. 18
At a 19 particular -- if I were to cover two 20 shifts. 21 COMMISSIONER AYERS: Yes. 22
So we're 23 talking about 25 firefighters. 24 COMMISSIONER AYERS: Yes. 25
And what 115 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560 does that come to on average salary annually, 25? If you were to divide the average firefighter's salary, how much is that? COMMISSIONER AYERS: Well, that's going to come up to $3.8 million or close to it when we finish for a year. So if you divide it by -- I think my 10 Deputy for Administrative Services is 11 working on that right now. 12
Is he close 13 to accurate? A nod will do. 14 Okay. The boss is always 15 accurate, you said? Okay. All right. 16 Is it true or do you disagree 17 that there are 300 vacancies? 18 COMMISSIONER AYERS: I 19 disagree. 20
And what is 21 that disagreement? 22 COMMISSIONER AYERS: The 23 disagreement is, our budget -- our count 24 for members in the fire service has 25 decreased with the budget reductions. 116 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560
So how many vacancies do we have? COMMISSIONER AYERS: We're somewhere around 60 or 70 vacancies, 80 firefighters.
So currently we have the capacity to hire those firefighters within the appropriated budget? COMMISSIONER AYERS: There's a hiring freeze on, but if we were allowed to, yes, we could.
This Council appropriated enough money for 80 more positions; is that accurate? COMMISSIONER AYERS: Yes, that's accurate. DEPUTY
And to solve this problem, we wouldn't even have to go to the full 80, but just about 25? DEPUTY
No, that's not correct. 117 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560
The reason -- if you ended up -- you have to remember, we have a budget that we are trying to hit that actually requires $3.8 million less. If we hired 80 firefighters, we would actually be above the budget, not out of Class 100, but out of the other attenuated classes. So, I mean, you know how we end up making up the difference. We have budgeted somewhere on the order of $28 million in overtime. This strategy saves us 3 million of the 28. So the Class 100 dollars is -- and I don't know what it is right now offhand, but it's X. We have $25 million available for overtime, and the only way to hit the dollars that we need to hit is to take the 3 million -- originally we came to you and we asked for 28. We can't provide 28. We can only do 25. So that's what the delta is, it's the $3.8 million. If we end up 118 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560 trying to hire 80 additional firefighters, we would spend more money than we would have than less.
So question. Simple math for me. If through a transfer ordinance we were to find you $3.5 million, would it be spent on hiring those firefighters? 10 DEPUTY
I would 11 welcome the opportunity to talk with both 12 the Chair and you about that. Because I 13 look at the budget not just -- and even 14 though -- and a lot of my other deputy 15 mayors tell me I'm rather possessive 16 about public safety, and I do believe 17 public safety is number one, but 18 obviously it would depend on how you 19 would impact the other things that we are 20 trying to get done in the City and you 21 have that same issue. 22
Okay. 23 That's fair. But if we were not to 24 disturb your sensibilities about where it 25 came from and we could find 3.4, 3.5 119 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560 million dollars, would it be used for hiring that, quote, round about 4 firefighters so that we could eliminate 5 blackouts forever? 6 DEPUTY
Well, I 7 don't know whether it would be forever, 8 but I would suggest that before I would 9 give an answer yay or nay, that I would 10 have to exactly go back and take a look 11 at that. But I would like to have that 12 conversation. I'm open to that 13 conversation, as you know. 14
Have 15 there -- and final question. Have there 16 been any other deaths in the areas where 17 there were blackouts, fire fatalities? 18 COMMISSIONER AYERS: We don't 19 have any deaths in those areas where we 20 have the temporary deactivations. 21
There's 22 never been -- 23 COMMISSIONER AYERS: If you're 24 talking about 55th Street, why we're 25 here -- 120 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560
No, no. I'm talking about where you have the blackouts, citywide, has there ever been an occasion where there was a fire fatality during a blackout period? COMMISSIONER AYERS: No. 8 DEPUTY
Let me say it again. There was one -- I'm not saying caused. I didn't say what caused it. That's for us to argue at another point. What I asked you specifically was, is there a time in a geographic area where there was an engine blackout or a ladder blackout where there was at the same time of the blackout a fire fatality? COMMISSIONER AYERS: I would say that researching the data, you would be able to say yes. And you're talking about some training or something where a first-in company was not in their location and other companies came. I 121 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560 will say if you researched the data historically, I will say that that's a yes.
Do you think it's worth researching? COMMISSIONER AYERS: Oh, absolutely it is. Yes, it's worth it.
You're going to get the Chair that information? COMMISSIONER AYERS: Absolutely.
Thank you, Madam Chair. COMMISSIONER AYERS: Since we have started in August 1, outside of the discussions that we're having about 55th Street, the answer would be no. 19
Thank you, Madam Chair. 122 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560 Just one question, and I'm sorry. This may have been asked before and I missed it. In your testimony, Commissioner, you say due to minimum staffing requirements, the Fire Department is required to ensure a designated number of firefighters always staffing a company. What is that number? How is it determined? COMMISSIONER AYERS: That number is determined by the number of companies covering 11 battalions in the City, and that is per shift. So that number hovers somewhere around 455 to somewhere in that area, 476.
That's total? Okay. COMMISSIONER AYERS: That's correct.
Thank you, Councilman Greenlee. 123 10/19/10 - PUBLIC SAFETY - RES. 100560 I want to thank everyone for coming out today. We appreciate your time. We all agree that -- we all concur that the Fire Department does a really good job, and this hearing, as Councilman Jones said, is not about who to blame. We just are nervous about the brown-outs and we would like to do whatever we can to help. So we want to recess this hearing to the call of the Chair. Thank you again for coming out. COMMISSIONER AYERS: Thank you very much, Chairwoman. You've always supported us and we do appreciate everything. Thank you. (Committee on Public Safety adjourned at 3:50 p.m.) - - - 124 CERTIFICATE I HEREBY CERTIFY that the proceedings, evidence and objections are contained fully and accurately in the stenographic notes taken by me upon the foregoing matter on October 19, 2010, and that this is a true and correct transcript of same. -------------------- MICHELE L. MURPHY RPR-Notary Public (The foregoing certification of this transcript does not apply to any reproduction of the same by any means, unless under the direct control and/or supervision of the certifying reporter.)