I would say 18 absolutely, based on our track record. But 19 it has to be demonstrated. It has to be 20 based on availability. 21
The last two years 127 the Disparity Study was given to us late because you asked for changes. What you asked for was to change the denominator. You asked for the numbers to change. We are not comparing apples to apples and oranges to oranges. You asked them to change it so the numbers would change; is that correct?
No, that is not correct. What we asked them to do was to look at the companies that are across the region that actually sell the products we buy and they looked at the quantity of companies and based on that information, they also then looked back at previous studies and adjusted those numbers for what we buy.
Do we know what the goal would have been, had you not adjusted the numbers?
Do we know what the participation rate would have been, had you not adjusted the number?
The participation 128 rate would have been what it currently is. That is an actual number.
That is interesting. Let's go back in time a little bit. The last two Disparity Studies were late. Are you familiar with the Disparity Study that was done before that?
Fiscal Year 10, 15 which was late, was 25 percent. Fiscal Year 16 9, was late, which was 25 percent. In at 17 least one of those years, Econsult 18 recommended 30 percent. Then you went and 19 had a talk with them and their final draft 20 says something different. 21 I am asking for Fiscal Year 8. Do you 22 know what the goal was set by Econsult? 23
If you look at the last four years of participation activity, we have averaged 19.9 percent.
I am talking about Fiscal Year 8 Disparity Study. That is what I am talking about right now.
Okay. I understand you are talking about the Disparity --
Is there anyone at the table who was here then? Mr. Dow?
The Fiscal Year 8 Disparity Study is conducted after Fiscal Year 8. It's conducted related to Fiscal Year 130 8. The Fiscal Year Disparity Study was released May 15, 2009. So you were there. You were there. Mr. Greenberger, were you there?
I was the Chief Planner for the City. I was made acting Deputy Mayor in July of that year.
So, the Disparity Study came in and said 30 percent. Who decided that it shouldn't be 30 percent; the goal shouldn't be 30 percent?
At the time, we had an Executive Director. That was a different gentleman, so.
You fired him after the Disparity Study came out. He got fired right after the Disparity Study came out. So, he didn't set the goal.
I will take accountability and say, yes, I established that goal.
So, why wasn't the 5 goal 30 percent, if that's what Econsult 6 recommended? 7
For the same reasons that 8 Angela Dowd-Burton was trying to explain. 9
"Trying to 10 explain". Okay. 11 For Fiscal Year 11, what is the 12 participation rate? 13
Fiscal year 11, the 14 participation rate was at 25.5 percent, when 15 you incorporate City and quasi public 16 agencies. For the City departments it was -- 17
I am asking overall 18 participation rate and if turn to the OEO Report that was released last 20 October. 21
That is the Operating 132 Departments, is 24.3, 6 percent.
We have given Councilman Goode a little more time because he hasn't asked a question up until you. So, we are going to indulge him a little longer here and we are gonna move on.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. The participation rate for Fiscal Year 11 --
Was 24.36 percent. Operating Department were 25.5 percent and city wide, 10.4 --
That wasn't my question. My question was, what was the participation rate total, according to this document?
The contracts that were awarded by the Operating Departments for that fiscal year.
Contracts that were awarded to for-profits during that fiscal year.
That number reflects all contracts, for-profit contract dollars?
Awarded that Fiscal Year, yes. There is a difference between contracts that are in place that were not awarded that fiscal year.
So, what does the spent for disadvantage businesses represent?
Contracts that were 134 awarded to them as primes and subs for that fiscal year.
So, these numbers still are not total spent numbers. They are not DB spent numbers. So, it's not an actual participation rate. It's just based upon what was in the contract?
These dollars are based on contracts awarded. That is correct.
So, with the fraud that still exists out there, we don't know whether any of these disadvantaged businesses got paid or participated in those contracts?
Well, yes, we do. We do track payments from primes to subs manually. We get actual invoices from primes and those invoices are reviewed for inclusion of the subs.
The cases that were caught in terms of fraud went to the City Controllers Office and Inspector General's Office. You didn't catch either one of those?
No. That is not 135 completely accurate because we reported them to the Inspector General's Office. The one that is dealing with UGI and JHS, along with another company was caught actually by the Office of Economic Opportunity -- well, was reported by us through OHCDs efforts to investigate.
So, OHCD could have reported it to the Inspector General's Office. It was not caught through your process.
That is because that transaction did not come through our process.
My question is, have you caught any fraud through your process?
We have identified some that is currently under investigation. 136 Yes, sir.
Thank you. I will continue. Thank you for the leeway, Mr. Chairman.
I know it's a passion of yours, Councilman. Chair now recognizes Councilwoman Brown.
It is no secret that we continue to have more than a strong interest in the City moving the needle around this ongoing issue. Councilman Goode and I have been here now for 12 years and it is amazing to me that each year we are still struggling with the same issue. Let's go to Dilworth Plaza. Who or what agency is monitoring MBE/WBE activity on Dilworth Plaza?
We have an Economic Opportunity Plan with the Center City 137 District and we will be monitoring that program through Gilbane. They have a meeting scheduled regularly and we identify the minorities and women on that project, the work that they will be doing on that project, when we expect them to show up and be paid for that. We will be getting that information. One of things that we have in our Economic Opportunity Committees is a role for the members of City Council who represent the districts that projects are in to participate on those committees so that we can keep City Council --
-- informed. So we certainly welcome the inclusion of any City Council member or their staff on that project.
Councilwoman Tasco and I in past years raised, and others, questions around nonprofits that do business with principally DHS and Department of Health. 138 Provide us an update, briefly, because the clock is always ticking, of where that process is; what progress has been made to hold nonprofits accountable for those tenants of the Mayor's Executive Order?
Well, you are familiar with the work that we did last year where we had the top 100 nonprofits come in to talk about their need for a supplier development program, and from that meeting, we were able to identify some key concerns that they had. In terms of identifying qualified companies. How much of a priority is this in setting up systems to track them. So, from that meeting, we had a follow-up meeting where we brought in 60 minority and women owned businesses to introduce to these nonprofits to say, these are the caliber of companys, these are the services and products they provide, and these are some of the individuals that we would like you to consider when you are setting up your supplier diversity programs.
As a point of 139 information and footnote, I would add, that was because we heard from too many nonprofit heads that they couldn't find and locate --
-- qualified, reliable MBE/WBEs that had the capacity.
So, thank you for showing them that they actually do exist in the City of Philadelphia.
Absolutely. It was very productive meeting and from that we then move to the Operating Departments. Deputy Mayor Don Schwartz and his team have actively put together a document that was sent out across nonprofit portfolio to canvas all of these nonprofits, and there are about 400 of them, to No. 1, look at their executive body and the demographics of their leadership team. To look at their board composition. To also look at their supplier diversity program.
And to identify a 140 base line that we can launch an improvement or an increase in the level of supplier diversity. Once we have a holistic understanding of what that market is driving. So, that documentation has come in and it is being systematized over the next few days and weeks, and by the time the Deputy Mayor comes in to speak, he should be able to share some additional conclusions with you. But we are working with him on that project.
So, is that group still meeting or that was just the first phase of --
The first phase was their physical presence and eye-to-eye contact. Second was introduce them to companies that are ready, willing, and able to serve. Third was to document where you are right now to setup a base line, and then the next step is to move forward in driving 141 that level of supplier diversity forward to increase it.
So, now the responsibility sits with the Deputy Mayor Schwartz?
That's correct, and the other Deputy Mayors that actually manage and monitor nonprofit contacts. But he has the majority of them.
Thank you for your testimony. I will wait for the next round again because I have subsequent questions on this topic. Thank you, Mr. President.
Thank you Councilwoman. Chair recognizes Council Member Kenney. Council Member is not here at the moment. Chair recognizes Council Member Greenlee.
Thank you, Mr. President. Good afternoon. I'm gonna go in a little different direction for a minute. In 142 the written testimony, you talk about the Mayor's Youth Employment Program. Could you give a little more detail on that? You talk about financial incentives,, you know, maybe get into a little bit how somebody would apply, if you have that, Dow, or figured out yet?
Yes. That is a new program that we are initiating. We anticipate that will start out in May of this year, initiating the application process. We are looking to -- If you are familiar with the Facade Program the storefront improvement program that Commerce Department runs, we facilitate that through the use of Community Development Corporations. We actually train them to understand what that product is. They go out, work with businesses to say, we have a product that the City offers for improvement of your facade building. We are gonna do something similar with the Mayor's Youth Employment Program, where we will make available resources to them to do a matching grant for businesses 143 to, one, engages them and leverages private money. But to offer them the opportunity to higher youth within a certain age frame, probably within a certain demographic. Meaning, those that are more prone for the challenges of life that they may have, and then also maybe in a demographic way, sort of might concentrate within the police districts that have the higher crime rates. But then all of that, that is City wide though, but there might be some focus on that. They issue an application, businesses will be able to come in and fill out an application, tell us that they will higher somebody at a particular rate. That is all within our qualifications. We will verify that, sign off on that. They will higher, we will then reimburse them.
How do you get the youth, would it be through schools or?
Yeah. One, we believe that because this is a program geared towards neighborhood and commercial based, commercial corridor based businesses, they already know 144 the youth in their community. So, one, that is one aspect. We know that they already understand who in their communities; they have people knocking on the door, can I get a job. Kids in the neighborhood and so forth.
It also mentions a portion of this program will provide matching grants to fund youth internships in City Council this summer?
Thank you, Councilman. The chair recognizes Council Member Oh. 145
Thank you, Mr. President. I am just gonna ask some big picture, big vision questions. I am just curious, and I don't know the limitations and constraints that you are under. So, I understand that you did visit in China City. Did you get a chance to see the construction of the Songdo City section?
1,500 acres $40 billion dollars, totally sustainable, alternative energy, green City, biotech center on reclaimed land from the sea on its Waterfront. Bustling port, huge international airport. 2.8 million people, 5,000 manufacturing companies. So, you know, the question is, what is our big picture big vision for Philadelphia?
It is probably not reclaiming that much land from the sea. 146 Although we do have to reclaim some to make the airport expansion work. I think -- It's a tough question, but I will give it a try. I think that the big picture for Philadelphia is that manufacturing at that scale is not where our future likely is, and just one side note about in China, of course, that you know, is that while in China itself is a city of 2.8 million, it sits side by side with Saul, which is a city of 10, 12. Something --
So, it is serving a 15 pretty big metropolitan area. Truly they are 16 side by side cities. I think Philadelphia 17 needs to see itself less in those terms 18 because that is not where our population -- 19 our population base isn't even remotely close 20 to that. 21 I think we need to see ourselves in 22 terms of other cities that are of similar 23 size, that have a kind of international 24 standing sometimes for different sectors and 147 the examples I often use are cities like Milan, which is an industrial center in Italy. Barcelona, which has a pretty broad mix. These are cities that a little more million-five, two million kind of population. Mixed economies. Ours clearly is heavily vested in education, bioscience research, clinical medical practices. That is kind of the No. 1, that is the No. 1 entity, and that is where I think we have to continue to be paying a lot of attention to. Happily, we have institutions behind those things and we don't -- we have to support them, but we don't have to sort of make it happen for them. As you get to the next set of levels, you are looking at, in terms of bases of employment, Government professional services, hospitality, those. I want to emphasize something about the hospitality side and ultimately the industrial side, which includes the specialty manufacturing that goes on here, as well as the distribution, 148 which is a significant piece. Utilities and repair work. Those two, industrial and hospitality, are the two places -- and to an extent the health side as well, are the places where we have the most opportunity for creating more entry level jobs. I think that is where the greatest need is in this City. In the end, our institution is not going to have a problem finding Ph.D.'s to do high level research in any field they want. They are big, famous institutions. They know what they're doing. The Unemployment statistics are really bad at the other end and we have to create far more, what I characterize as gateway jobs, for people. Get in the work force, get used to it, be happy with it, and hopefully advance yourself from there, and some of them too, I think, with that experience, and it shows up. I mean, in my career as architect, this showed up regularly on construction sites that when people are on construction sites, it occurs to some of them that they 149 can do a better job doing what their boss is doing, and they go out and form companies. That is the kind of culture that we need to foster. In that particular instance you can't do it if you are not on the site seeing it first hand.
In light of the fact that we do have this increasing number of creative and innovative persons and we have a preexisting University culture and whatnot, are there any plans to develop larger sections of the City to make them high-tech, sustainable, hour, global; do we have any 15 plans for developing our City so that we can 16 grow our economy? 17
Well, obviously, 18 there are places in the City that we and the 19 private sector are heavily invested in and 20 things like that. Like the University of 21 City Science Center. So, you always want to 22 be paying attention to that and making sure 23 that those things are healthy. 24 I would say to the other part of the 150 question, there is not a plan that sort of says, here's a place and we are gonna make, let's say, a tech sector thing happen there. Those sectors grow very organically, often from young entrepreneurial people, particularly on the technology side. What we need to do is find them and support them and I think let that organic growth happen where they are most comfortable with it happening. To me, that is a more important thing than us sort of designating a place and then saying, you know, and pretending that we have massive resources to put into it, which we don't, to sort of force something to be. I think that these things are, you know, as you look at where people are locating, you see that the decisions that more entrepreneurial people are making to locate are frequently exactly where it's been forever, which is that lower cost environments, parts of the City that have been way undervalued for a long time are becoming popular again because of the kind of space that is available, the kind of life 151 that's available and the affordance or affordability, are significant. So, people gravitate to those places. It doesn't hurt that a number of them are also connected by transit. So that there is an ability to really get around. We, for instance, have, and I don't confess to know exactly where this is centered. We have an emerging serious market in video game design. Largely because Drexel University has a very powerful program in it and those young people probably start out in and around West Philadelphia and some of them stay, some of them migrate to less expensive corridors. Some of them are in those 43 incubators that I mentioned.
I want to take more time, but I will come back. Thank you.
Real quick before I call the next Council Member. I just want to follow-up on a couple of the issues you referenced in response to Councilman Oh. 152 You talked about the need to enhance the opportunities for what we believe would be stronger for growth industries, health sciences, health care, the institutions associated with that, I agree with you 100 percent. The question is, and I know that you are not in charge of the educational aspect of the City, but as we move ahead, is there some coordination between the Commerce Department, who is hopefully the facilitator of this job growth and the school districts last education. So these young me do get prepared for entry level, as I referenced in an earlier hearing. We talked about, went over Representative Kenyatta Johnson's district and to the job core. It was like stunning. That was my first time there and they had like 300 young people in the job core, and 80 percent of that was focused on entry level health care positions. So my question is, you know, you have this position which I agree with and I 153 understand that you may not be able to answer the question right now.
The administration focuses on, and our interaction with the school district, getting people educated for jobs that are really there, not just teaching so they can pass the test and not really have the likely opportunity outside of your final educational process. The second one, you referenced high tech jobs, entrepreneurs, being in a position. You said the City does not have probably the right resources to enhance. My understanding is that we are in a position where we can conceivably get up to two KOZ zones. Is your office working to possibly look at sites where we could create a KOZ. I think that is the biggest resource anybody can offer anybody where you don't have to pay any taxes. 154 Are you looking at that as a possibility of locating in the area where the likelihood that those young entrepreneurs or other high tech facilities would locate?
Second question first, the answer is, yes. We are reviewing all of the existing KOZs in the City and trying to corollate either time extensions, geographic extensions or I think in a very limited number of instances, new ones, to the State Law, which I have to admit is confusing even to state legislators, let alone to us, but we are trying to get to the bottom of it so we can make very specific recommendations about which KOZs need to be extended in time, which KOZs need to have geography added to them or specific sites added to them. As you know, there is an inevitable tension between developments that want to happen and are looking for KOZ assistance to make them happen, which may or may not have anything to do with small entrepreneurial community.
I don't need to know who it is. There is always that tension and I think that is something we are going to have to sort out together. But we are absolutely looking at it trying to make a definitive set of recommendations related to KOZ. The other question --
Particularly related to what you reference as a possibility at it relates to high tech and entrepreneurs with new.
If I can pursue a different idea that we are actively pursuing right now. We have done a fair bit of research over the last year talking to people who are in venture capital and trying to get a better handle on, well, what is the problem here. Why don't we have more venture capital activity in the City that would support entrepreneurial activity and you know, different cities have different issues. New York has a space issue because space is really expensive. It doesn't seem 156 to be our issue, although there are some space related things. What we have seen consistently is that there a gap in funding between what has been characterized to me by one pretty successful venture capital guy as the end of your Mastercard, like when you have maxed out, and the beginning of Angel Investing, who are really looking for a more concrete business opportunity. There is a gap. It's often several hundred thousand dollars at a time. So, what we have been doing and in this case "we" refers to PIDC with John Grady and I have been working on this, is starting to talk to foundations and private venture capital to see whether we can pull a significant piece of money between public, private, and foundation money to create a pool that would specifically address that funding gap. We have heard it time and again as being one of the critical issues in this City. So, it is not a KOZ related thing, it's a funding gap coming out research that 157 we have done. The other question earlier came up while you were still up at 9th and Berks, I think, and that is we partner very seriously with Work Force Development Corporation, Mark Edwards was up here speaking. We are actively looking, while we are reorganizing that entity, we are actively looking for ways that the educational, training needs, vocational training needs, for instance, for some of these entry level health care jobs can be better imbedded in the school system. I can't remember that he mentioned, is it also a very productive thing with the community college, who are at the moment at least more nimble and able to produce that kind of training in the schools. We have to get it back into the schools, but as you know, that's a harder --
I am asking because given the high dropout rate and a lot of it has to do with there's just not an interest in the young people as they progress through high school, and I didn't invent 158 this, a lot of people have been talking about it. You're talking about construction trades and the reality is, I don't know why there is a reason why a young person should not be able to come out of high school and be prepared to take the apprenticeship test for the building trades. There is no reason why, as opposed to coming out and then have to go to -- where is that? Up in east jabip, northeast, one of the facilities where they have to do a year or two years up there. They need to be able to come out of there and take that test. Similarly, when I talked about the job core earlier in Councilman's district, a significant number of those individuals were in that class had not completed high school. They were getting their GEDs concurrent with them getting training. So, a big part of our ability to keep people in schools that have a level of interest where there is some likelihood where there is a job at the end of the day or some higher educational opportunity. 159 So, that is what I am talking about school district primarily.
Thank you, Council President. Just a couple questions. How are you doing, Alan?
First, I commend you for what you have been doing. So, just in that capacity, just thank you for being here and the work that you are doing for our City just in general. A couple things. Since we have Mark here with us today, Mark, do you mind taking the stage? Now, you're currently, as the Commerce Department in 160 general, your request is how much?
The entire request request is $252,000,000, of which $248 is passed along to other entities.
Yeah. If you gave me a minute I can explain that. Bear with me, or if you like I can just come back to it.
Okay. There is actually -- in the testimony it talks about a net decrease of $5.4 million dollars. That is all in. That is everything, and included in that are, I believe, please one of my staff correct me if I am wrong. That included in that is an anticipated decrease in Federal funding.
So, separate from the net increase of $7,401,493. Sorry, I'm 161 here to present testimony.
All right. I will come back to why I am asking that particular question to follow-up on the issues regarding youth employment. I want to start off with Mark regarding the new merge of Philadelphia Works. Trying to get a status update. There has been some challenges, but from my understanding, you have already been doing some work internally in terms of your own evaluation, your own auditing of the Philadelphia Work Force Development Corporation, as well as the Philadelphia --
So, give me an idea just to lay the back drop. I do know you have, your funding has been cut significantly on a Federal level. So one, I won't name individual names in this context of me doing my questioning. But, are we working with our Federal agencies and our Federal elected officials to try to, one, restore that type of funding that has been cut. That is my first question. I do understand that the actual -- there's been a cut back in earning centers from nine to six. If you can elaborate on what we are doing to actually address that issue from a supportive standpoint is why I am asking you these questions, and also in terms of your plan, your new plan to address some of those changes that have taken place with the new Philly Works Program that the administration have rolled out. How are we engaging employers to participate in your program, via greater Philadelphia Chamber of Commerce, 163 African-American Chamber of Commerce, the greater Philadelphia Hispanic Chamber of Commerce? Are we engaging them to utilize your program and get people employed.
And, Mark, talk about your recommendations. Let's put the pew report to the side. Let's talk about what you already started, the former that came before the pew report.
In terms of what we are doing to engage members, supportive stakeholders at the Federal level in what is happening. We have been engaged, my team and I have been engaged in a number of information sessions and briefings at the Federal, State and local level, and by local I mean certain members of Council in the process now of meeting with a number of members of Council just to make them aware of 164 all of the changes that are going on. Both in terms of funding at the State level which is really a function of the decrease in funding that's happening at the federal level. At the Federal level, we are addressing issues now around the reauthorization of Work Force Investment Act, which funds and provides guidelines for how all of our dollars are operated. So, we are in communication with both a Federal level so that we can give them our opinion and our perspective on how that legislation should be changed in support of the work force system. We do that through the voices of the private sector, representatives who serve on our Board of Directors and we give staff input in that as well. The second question that you raised, which is with regard to the Earn Centers and the reduction in State funding. Just on the earn side alone, we received a 52 percent reduction in funding for that system and we went through a fairly rigorous and objective process to determine how we would make the system smaller. How we 165 would get to the point of six Earn Centers and identify the three that would not remain. We are working with the Mayor's office, we are working with people from the Department of Public Welfare. My organization serves the pleasure of the Department of Public Welfare through a contract that we have with them. So, they're major stakeholders in this whole --
At the State level, correct. So, they are major stakeholders in this process and we are working with them to make sure that there is geographical representation and dispersion across the City of Philadelphia to be able to provide services to those clients. They themselves are going through a series of policy shifts at the State level to prioritize how they are going to allow their dollars to support the Public Work Force System. It's called a work first approach, 166 which means that if ten people who receive cannas (ph) assistance want to continue to receive that assistance, then they have to demonstrate the fact that they are actively engaged in work search as defined by the Commonwealth or actually have a job in order to continue to receive those benefits. It is a major shift from the way that we have operated in the past because we have been able to put more of our dollars that we get from the State in the kinds of programs that would allow people to get training, additional training that they would need because of their own skill levels. Those are some of the things that are happening at that level. With regard to the Pew Report. The Pew Report, to a large degree, confirms things that we already knew. In April of 2011, we publicly posted an assessment that was done at the Philadelphia Work Force System that was engaged by members of administration and members of our local Work Force Investment board to identify a national consultant to 167 come in and look at ways in which we operate so that we can identify opportunities for improvement of our system. That was done. Some of those recommendations centered around providing a single point of leadership for the Public Work Force System so it wasn't as complex as it was before because you have a number of different organizations doing a number of different things related to actually making investments in the Work Force System to doing public policy, research and data collection and analysis of the Public Work Force System. So, the first recommendation was to provide a single leader over the entire system --
That would be me, going forward. That starts July 1st. The second recommendation was to merge the two organizations together, so that policy data and research drives investments.
That will be Philadelphia Works. The actual physical merger occurred last week. So, the staff, we were formerly located at 1601 Market Street, are now in my location. The Board, a consolidation of the Boards was another recommendation. It was just a number of boards responsible for all of those things I just described. The Boards as a result of a combined board meeting that Alan spoke of earlier that he serves on, at his March 21st Board meeting, executed all of the required legal documents, plan of merger, articles of merger to consolidate all of those boards into a single board. Now we have a single board responsible for policy investment, accountability for impact of the Public Work Force Systems as opposed to the three boards it consisted of.
Is there a summary of this merger and where you are at?
There are a number of documents that we have, a transition plan that talks about the progress that we've made 169 and I can make that available.
Council President also created a Jobs Commission. Will this play a role in any capacity as we move forward to get folks back on the employment roles of Philadelphia?
It is my understanding that a meeting is going to be coming up later this month. At that meeting of that Commission we will be having those discussions.
I am not sure. I know we passed an ordinance and a charter change to initiate it, but we are still dealing with the nuances of the particulars in the actual naming of the individuals and all of the internal things that we in Government tend to go through. So we are close, right?
Yeah, I am trying to keep that in-house stuff in-house.
Just one other thing. You mentioned the Board, well, the former Board, did a lot of advocacy on behalf of Philadelphia Work Force Development Corporation.
How is that gonna look moving forward? Is it the same setup, because I haven't met anyone, even in the capacity of me being a State Representative, from the Board coming to my office on a State level saying, hey, and I have been through three budgets. No one has come to my office on a state level and said, State Representative Johnson, can you advocate for X, Y, Z program. I am trying to figure out, do they pick certain people they go to, or --
The way it will look moving forward, and it is interesting because 171 I, just a month ago, I did a very similar presentation to the one you just described to all of the members of the Philadelphia delegation on the senate side. I have a request in right now on the house side. So, the same presentation will be done there, and as I indicated earlier, that same level of discussion is happening on an individual basis with members of Council.
Thank you, Council President. As we move forward, if you can give me some numbers for what some of the goals look like.
Yes, sir. 172 Absolutely. We still have a full board, so I am trying --