COUNCIL OF THE CITY OF PHILADELPHIA PUBLIC HEARING COMMERCE AND ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT - - - Room 696, City Hall Philadelphia, Pennsylvania March 21, 2003 10:20 a.m. - - - BILL 020816 - an ordinance amending Title of The 9 Philadelphia Code, entitled "Miscellaneous," by adding a new chapter creating The Economic 10 Opportunity Task Force, to develop plans for..... BILL 020827 - an ordinance amending Title 17 of The 11 Philadelphia Code, entitled "Contracts and Procurement," to improve compliance with certain 12 participating, affirmative action and reporting..... BILL 030125 - an ordinance repealing Chapter 17-500 13 of The Philadelphia Code, entitled "Goals for the Participation of Minority, Female and Disabled Owned 14 Businesses in City Contracts," and enacting a new... 15 - - - 16 PRESENT: COUNCILMAN MICHAEL NUTTER, Chair 17 COUNCILMAN FRANK DICICCO COUNCILMAN DARRELL DARRYL CLARKE 18 COUNCILMAN DAVID COHEN COUNCILMAN ANGEL ORTIZ 19 COUNCILMAN W. WILSON GOODE, JR. COUNCILWOMAN BLONDELL REYNOLDS-BROWN 20 21 V A R A L L O Incorporated Litigation Support Services 1835 Market Street, Suite 600 Philadelphia, PA 19103 215.561.2220 215.567.2670 2 I N D E X BILL 020816 BILL 020827 Anthony Fullard, African-American Chamber of Commerce................. James Roundtree, Minority Business 6 Enterprise Council.................. 20 Marla Hamilton, Phillies/Eagles Stadium 7 Oversight Committee................. 25 Judith Robinson...................... 81 8 BILL 030125 Thomas Corey, City of Baltimore...... 99 Reverend Bruce Edwards.............. 157 Ron Armor, Community activist....... 172 Bruce Crawley, African-American Chamber of Commerce........................ 178 Jihad Ali, APEX Builders, Inc....... 186 Jamal Johnson, Contractors Roundtable......................... 191 Anthony Fullard, African-American Chamber of Commerce................ 203 William Gamble, procurement commissioner....................... 221 Tyrone Reed......................... 222 3 3/21/03 - Commerce - BILLS 020816 and 020827
Good morning. We do not yet have a quorum. Councilman Nutter is en route. He was somewhat delayed this morning. I'm councilman DiCicco and with me this morning is Councilman Clarke. We will at least get the hearings underway, and at the time of any votes that need to be taken, I'm certain we'll have a quorum. So in the interest of time, and we appreciate your patience, we would like to get the hearing underway. The Chair recognizes Julie for the purpose of reading the first bill.
Bill No. 020816, an ordinance amending Title of The Philadelphia 15 Code, entitled "Miscellaneous," by adding a new 16 chapter creating The Economic Opportunity Task 17 Force, to develop plans for increasing employment 18 for minorities, women and disabled persons in 19 connection with publicly funded construction 20 contracts and increasing contracting with 21 minority-owned, female-owned and disabled-owned businesses for such projects; and creating an Economic Opportunity Resource Council comprised of representatives of government departments and agencies to support the work of the Task Force; all 4 3/21/03 - Commerce - BILLS 020816 and 020827 under certain terms and conditions. And Bill No. 020827, an ordinance 4 amending Title 17 of The Philadelphia Code, entitled "Contracts and Procurement," to improve compliance with certain participation, affirmative action and reporting requirements, including by amending Chapter 17-500, entitled "Goals For the Participation of Minority, Female and Disabled-Owned Businesses In City Contracts," by imposing reporting requirements on the Minority Business Enterprise Council relating to the participation of Minority, Female and Disabled-Owned Businesses and Socially and Economically Disadvantaged Individuals in Contracts of the City of Philadelphia, its Agencies and All Quasi-Public Agencies and by prohibiting Council approval of certain City or Quasi-Public Agency projects; by amending Chapter 17-900, entitled "Neighborhood Benefit Strategy," by barring from participation in certain City contracts contractors that fail to comply with certain Affirmative Action requirements; and by amending Chapter 17-1000 entitled "Employment of Low- and Moderate-Income Persons By City Contractors," by barring from participation in certain City contracts 5 3/21/03 - Commerce - BILLS 020816 and 020827 contractors that fail to comply with certain low- and moderate-income hiring requirements and adding certain reporting requirements; all under certain terms and conditions.
Thank you. The Chair recognizes Councilmember Clarke, who has an opening statement.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, we introduced these bills. They are actually companion bills for a particular purpose. One bill to create an additional mechanism to allow government, particularly the procurement commissioner, an opportunity to either disbar or terminate, prohibit individuals or contractors who do not comply with some of the existing regulations associated with the participation of low- and moderate-income individuals in particular areas throughout the City of Philadelphia. Additionally, it requires certain reporting requirements that will better enable us to determine whether or not these particular contractors are complying with the existing regs. The other thing, the companion bill that 6 3/21/03 - Commerce - BILLS 020816 and 020827 created the Economic Opportunity Task Force, was put in place as a tool to not only give the City of Philadelphia, but also individuals and agencies who are interested in this particular issue, an opportunity to participate at a level that will allow them not only to access but also to monitor and suggest to government as to what needs to happen. One of the reasons that I thought it was important to have this Economic Opportunity Task Force is, having participated on the Stadium Oversight Committee, although it didn't achieve the ultimate goal, I found it to be a tool that, at a minimum, allowed us to access information as it relates to contracts and contract opportunities for MBE and WBE. It, in fact, in our most recent estimation achieved numbers that surpass any other municipally sponsored project, although it didn't achieve the goals that we sought as 50 percent. So I thought we'd need to mirror that type of format and take in an opportunity to take advantage of some of the mistakes that were made on that particular task force, understanding in 7 3/21/03 - Commerce - BILLS 020816 and 020827 retrospect some of the things that we need to do to take corrective action to make sure that some of the things that were essentially not done on that particular task force will be done in this one. By providing a resource council, it will also put in place a series of resources that will allow that task force to better do its job. Traditionally task forces such as this that are set up are normally done at the behest of the owner of a particular company, as in the Eagles and the Phillies Oversight Committee, the monitoring agent was, in fact, hired by the Eagles and the Phillies. In this particular aspect, we think the resources should be provided by the taxpayer, so ultimately we are the ones responsible for that task force. So it is my hope with these two bills in place that we will be in a position to better access and better implement a program that will allow opportunities for low and moderate MBE, WBE and DBE participants.
Thank you. Thank you, Councilman. The first witness, Jihad Ali, APEX 8 3/21/03 - Commerce - BILLS 020816 and 020827 Builders, Inc.? (No response.)
Not here. Anthony Fullard, director of economic development, African-American Chamber of Commerce? Mr. Fullard? (No response.)
And Marla Hamilton? Marla Hamilton from the Philadelphia Eagles Oversight Committee? (No response.)
Please approach the witness table. And Jihad Ali, APEX Builders, not here? (No response.)
Reverend, you're not going to be testifying on these two?
You're going to be 9 3/21/03 - Commerce - BILLS 020816 and 020827 testifying on Bill No. 030125?
Good morning. Please identify yourself for the record and proceed with your testimony.
Okay. My name is Anthony Fullard and I'm from the African-American Chamber of Commerce. I'm the chairman of the Round Table and also the economic development director for Chamber as well.
Yes. I don't know if we're speaking to both bills here now or just one bill. I see Councilman Clarke here. I don't know if Councilman Ortiz's bill is --
Actually, you can speak to both bills. It's your decision. Councilman Ortiz is running a few minutes late, as is Councilman Nutter. We just wanted to get the hearing started. So you can speak to either one or both of them at the same time. Whatever you feel comfortable with. Why don't we start with Bill No. 020816. 10 3/21/03 - Commerce - BILLS 020816 and 020827
Okay. Could I have that bill, because I was in a meeting and I left my information...
This is the bill 6 that speaks to the adding of the new chapter 7 creating the Economic Opportunity Task Force.
Okay. And as far as the Chamber, we have looked at this bill, and there was a lot of things that we've seen that is pretty much already in place even though it speaks to the effect of some task force and some committees and a process of following with these task forces in order to enforce some direction on minority participation and to ensure that we get the right numbers on these job sites and to assure that it is being done within compliance. But, however, I believe that we do have some of these things in place even though that we do not have a task force, but it does not speak to the effect that if there is not a -- if someone is not in compliance, what will be the end result and how do we get the --
-- compliance enforced at 11 3/21/03 - Commerce - BILLS 020816 and 020827 that time. Because you still will have people out there trying to get contracts, trying to get employment, et cetera, but it just doesn't speak to how do we enforce that. And I think that if we raise or if we put in this bill what the enforcement is going to be and how we can enforce that, then I see that it could be something that could help this whole process.
My guess is that once the task force is in place, that that will be one of their tasks that they would be charged with, to provide some sort of remedy if, in fact, the conditions of the task force are not adequately met. My colleague, Councilman Clarke, may have a little bit more information on that.
Yes. One of the issues in the companion bill that we speak of is the potential for disbarment or prohibition of individuals or companies who have traditionally participated in municipal contracts. We will receive when Ms. Hamilton gets here some additional testimony that speaks about the possibility of every department providing an EO plan that will, first of all, set a threshold for 12 3/21/03 - Commerce - BILLS 020816 and 020827 participation that can potentially be used as a mechanism to set the tone for what level that contractor should meet as it relates to participation. And we also ultimately have the ability of the procurement commissioner to disbar that individual if they have not met those goals. The reason for the task force is to not only be dependent on government, I wanted to make sure that people who were interested in the issue out of government had an opportunity, had a seat at the table to participate in the program and have a resource council in place to get information that traditionally is either not available or it is very difficult to obtain by the individuals in the public. So we wanted to put these two pieces in place to better allow us to access not only the information, but the opportunities, but then have in place a method and a mechanism to disbar anyone who does not fully comply with the participation regs that are currently on the table.
Okay. But then it also -- and it is good to hear that there will be some kind of form of disbarment as well, but it does not speak 13 3/21/03 - Commerce - BILLS 020816 and 020827 to an immediate resolution to a problem when you have a contractor that really needs the work or he really wants to be a part of this project, because it seems like that will be a process that may take up a few months in order to get some type of resolution to the problem. So I think that's missing as well. Then how do we speak to as far as the task force and as far as the goal setting? I mean, how are we sure that we're going to get the accurate numbers and to show that that is the true amount of participation that is on these projects? And I didn't see anything that's speaking to that. As far as saying, for example, if we set it for 35 percent and then we get reports back that we had around 28 percent, how do we validate that to ensure that that's what it is?
That's the purpose of having the resource council. The resource council has all arms of government through procurement, finance, MBEC that should, in fact, have information that can verify those numbers. The earlier part of your statement with respect to opportunities in terms of its immediacy, 14 3/21/03 - Commerce - BILLS 020816 and 020827 I think that it's important having participated to some degree in some of these oversight committees at a minimum as a result of having the City departments who are ultimately responsible for procurement, I think that that task force will have available to it information on all contracts early on in the process that will be let or there will be bid solicitations for contracts in OHCD, Department of Commerce and all municipal contracts. That information will be available early on. It is my hope in terms of some of the participants that we like to see on the task force that they will then be in a position to make sure that that information is available to low and moderate income and MBE and DBE contractors. That's why I thought it was important to have you as a part of that process early on, so you can make sure that that's available. Because I agree with you, too often that information is not as forthcoming as it should be. I think with the task force having the ability to act as the resource council, we will, in fact, have that information at its earliest opportunity. 15 3/21/03 - Commerce - BILLS 020816 and 020827
Okay. And my other concern is that -- and I don't think it's spelled out, and I'm just assuming that it's probably too early to spell it out, but what is going to be the process and the selection of the people that will sit on this task force?
In the bill I think it mentions that all of the participants will be appointed by the Mayor. We have an amendment to change that as a result of some conversations with some of the individuals in the industry. So we will be an offering that amendment. And it's not too early on. This is the time to talk about some of the things that people think need to be changed in the bill or altered or added or deleted. So if you have anything that you can help us better implement a bill that has some teeth, we're more than willing to take that into account and be in a position to implement it at this particular time in this particular public hearing.
Well, our only concern is -- well, not only concern, but we do have some other concerns, but we just -- it just seems, though, that when we have arms that are still 16 3/21/03 - Commerce - BILLS 020816 and 020827 connected to city government, that we just don't get the due diligence as far as the accurate reporting and also being sincere about addressing the problem no matter who it may rub in the wrong way, but when you have those arms that are the individuals that are to do the reporting or do the -- as far as getting the information out or whatever the process is. But if that arm is still attached to city government, we find ourselves always coming up short. And we don't have the community that is not attached to city government directly as far as an employee or being paid where at the end of the day, I didn't get to this part right now, but I'll come into work tomorrow and then I'll pick up from where I left off. But when you have someone that is not attached to the city government and they understand the severity and they understand the seriousness of this, then you tend to get more of a due diligence and a more response to the problem. So I would like to see more community groups involved that are not attached to the government. I would like to see agencies such as our agency, the African-American Chamber of 17 3/21/03 - Commerce - BILLS 020816 and 020827 Commerce, involved in that process and some more organizational groups from the grass roots level as well involved in this process, because I just believe that you will get a more sincere and due diligence process when you have different people from the community at the table. And I see that throughout the whole city, throughout any major projects, these grass roots and these organizations are not at the table until something happens or until there's an announcement, and then we start to hear people's displeasure.
I agree with you, and I understand your concern. I guess the translation is that a lot of people out there just don't trust government. And I'm okay with that. I understand the cynicism associated with government and things that have happened in the past. It is our full intent as a result of the formation on this task force to have people, grass roots, people who are familiar with the industry, people who traditionally play the advocacy role for those that have been left out to fully participate at not only equal level of government, but, frankly 18 3/21/03 - Commerce - BILLS 020816 and 020827 speaking, I'd like to see ultimately the chairperson of that task force be a person who is outside of the government. So I agree with you, and hopefully we will make sure that we will have those individuals participate at its fullest on this task force. I agree with you.
And I wouldn't say that people just don't trust government, but I think that we look at the results and we look at the historical information that has been provided and then we look at the end results of what was the outcome of what has been going on, and then when we as the African-American business community look at these results and we see 0.6 percent of the value of business that we have been involved in, then that's when things get alarming and when you start to hear about the distrust, because of the historical information that we look at when we start to add up these numbers and see that African-Americans are getting less than percent of the business here in Philadelphia.
So I think that's where 19 3/21/03 - Commerce - BILLS 020816 and 020827 that comes from.
I understand, and I agree with you 100 percent. And that is the intent, and we will make sure that people are at the table in the process involved in its entirety. That is the intent of the bill. And I would -- obviously, I can't commit in the hearing, because that's not my responsibility to select your organization, but I would have to believe that your organization, at a minimum, will be on the short list of organizations that will be selected that will participate.
Okay, Councilman. Thank you very much. Also, I would like to see if I could reserve to come back and speak to Councilman Ortiz's bill. Is that okay?
We are expecting him. I just can't give you an exact time.
Any questions for this witness? 20 3/21/03 - Commerce - BILLS 020816 and 020827 Councilman Clarke.
Mr. Chairman, I'd like to, if at all possible, either ask Mr. Gamble or Mr. Roundtree to respond. There's one question with respect to verification of numbers that they may be able to respond to. Commissioner, can you respond to that or would that be better served by Mr. Roundtree?
He's around here somewhere. There he is. Good morning, Mr. Roundtree. Please identify yourself.
Good morning. I'm James Roundtree. I'm deputy finance director, one of the deputy finance directors, and I'm the director of the Minority Business Enterprise Council.
Good morning. 21 3/21/03 - Commerce - BILLS 020816 and 020827
Mr. Roundtree, in Mr. Fullard's earlier testimony he had expressed some concern about our ability to verify numbers as it relates to participation. Particularly individuals from outside the process need to be confident that the numbers that we submit are accurate. Could you speak to us about the verification process?
Yes. I can say based on what I've read from your new ordinance, one of the things that we will be able to do is to provide confidence to people outside of the system. We're meeting with the controller of the department and the finance department to get a system in place where we can identify when a contractor is being paid, when their last payment is due, and prior to any final payment that the MBEC or its successor agency would be able to sign off to denote whether or not the firms had complied with all the MBEC or the city requirements. Currently we do what is called a desk audit and we contact both the prime contractor and the minority subcontractors at various times during 22 3/21/03 - Commerce - BILLS 020816 and 020827 the year to determine if, in fact, firms are complying with the requirements.
That's how it's done now. It was done purely, from a professional standpoint, purely from a desk audit. It's not one in which is a site audit where we would go out to the company, review their records. In most of our inquiry we ask for, at a minimum, a copy of the subcontract or the final invoice. And if this bill passes into law, what we would ask from the controller and the finance department is to put us on their distribution list for all final payments, and prior to anyone receiving a final payment for completion of a city contract that has participation on it, we would be responsible for signing off and determining whether or not the firm was in compliance, and then we would notify the procurement commissioner also. So if there's any legal ramifications that should take place, it will go through him.
Mr. Fullard, does that response put you at more of a comfort level? I'm not going to say at a comfort level. 23 3/21/03 - Commerce - BILLS 020816 and 020827
I think that's a great comfort level there. I just don't know why we haven't had that in place up until the year 2003. But if I heard you right, Mr. Roundtree, you will also be requesting a company of the subcontract to the subcontractor?
I mean, from the prime once he executes a subcontract, you would have a copy of that subcontract, right?
Yes. What we plan to do based on all of the inquiries that we have been getting is to complete a circle. What we do now is, we request information. The procurement department may send us a draft of their bid. We set ranges when it comes back. We contact individuals to see if they know that they were on the contract or at least listed with a firm. Then at the end of the year or during some portion of the year, we send out information requesting verification of that. What we're proposing to do now because of some of the issues that have arisen is, to complete that loop, we're going to request from the 24 3/21/03 - Commerce - BILLS 020816 and 020827 controller that we have a system from the controller and the finance department about the payments. And the reason why it's taking so long is because we would like to automate this system. That is a tremendous amount of paper. And although we would prefer it at this time, I think going into this millennium, we need to automate that system. And so we will be meeting with the consultants on how we can link up to all the city departments' financial systems and know when contracts are going and being paid.
Mr. Roundtree, in terms of your ability to automate the system, should that be a part of the current budget deliberations that we find ourself in? I mean, if there's some additional resources needed to put you on-line or have the ability to access information, should we now talk about that while we're in the midst of the budget?
Yes and no. Yes because it would give us an entry point, but the no part comes because we need to truly define what this entity is going to be after you pass. I don't want to get into a financial 25 3/21/03 - Commerce - BILLS 020816 and 020827 situation where we updating and reinventing every time we go through the process. So once we find out what the total or the end product will be, then we will put together a plan that will technologically answer any requirements that Council or the administration would need.
We can just come back and do a transfer ordinance at that time.
Thank you very much for your testimony. Just for the record, I'm Councilman Nutter. I'm Chair of the Committee. I want to thank my colleagues, Councilman Clarke and Councilman DiCicco, for getting this hearing started. I apologize for being late. We'll continue with our list. Ms. Marla Hamilton? Please identify yourselves for the record and proceed with your testimony.
Good morning. My name is Marla Hamilton. I'm vice-president of the 3/21/03 - Commerce - BILLS 020816 and 020827 Philadelphia Industrial Development Corporation, and with me this morning is my colleague.
My name is Paul Deegan, D-E-E-G-A-N. I also represent the Philadelphia Industrial Development Corporation.
Good morning. I am here at the request of Councilman Clarke regarding Bill 10 NO. 020827 and Bill No. 020816.
Ms. Hamilton, you in particular, we have had discussions with respect to both of these ordinances and have in the past had opportunities to work with you in your prior role. And I don't know exactly what the specific title was when you worked at City Council, but you were involved in making sure that there was MBE and DBE participation, and prior to that, I think you were the director of MBEC, so you obviously have a vast knowledge of this particular issue. Could you just kind of speak to some of the things that these two bills can possibly provide 27 3/21/03 - Commerce - BILLS 020816 and 020827 an ability for us to enhance opportunities for individuals, and particularly with respect to the task force, what you envision it possibly to be in place to do and if there needs to be any additions or deletions in terms of our opportunities as it relates to this particular issue?
Obviously any effort on behalf of government to increase contracting opportunities and level a playing field for minority and female and disabled-owned businesses is encouraged and supported. In the past, my greatest level of experience besides the MBEC had been in working on TIF projects that were coming before the City Council and working with developers to ensure that there were substantial opportunities for participation. One of the mechanisms that enabled the economic opportunity plans which were a part of the TIF projects to work was the establishment of oversight committees, and I think with few exception each of the oversight committees on these TIF projects included entities or user groups from all over the city. That would be grass root groups, 28 3/21/03 - Commerce - BILLS 020816 and 020827 business groups, representatives from the unions, representatives from government. The intent was to try to get as rounded of input into the process as you could. Although the appointments onto these committees came through the Council, I believe, the intent was to get as broad of input as possible. And I think with the establishment of the oversight committees and having that broad level of participation by groups that have differing interests, that we have been able to have a reasonable level of success on non-city projects. To the extent that the establishment of this task force does the same thing on city projects, I think it is a good thing. Through the oversight committees and through negotiations, most of these TIF projects with these oversight committees have achieved levels of participation greater than what we have been able to establish or achieve within the city. So I think the establishment of the task force will only improve and increase opportunities for minority, female and disabled-owned businesses, and on the employment side also. 29 3/21/03 - Commerce - BILLS 020816 and 020827
Ms. Hamilton, in the earlier testimony there were some concerns raised about our ability to reach certain goals, what, in fact, would be the threshold for those goals, what will be the entity that will determine those goals if it were as a part of government. As you mentioned earlier, it was a part of a process that involved outside entities. What agency and how will we go about determining goals? I know I had spoken to you earlier about the possibility of holding departments accountable or for establishing certain economic opportunity plans for those individual departments and, therefore, setting potential thresholds.
Earlier goals had been established through Chapter 17-500 where there were goals for minority participation of 15 percent and women-owned business at participation at 10 percent, disabled at two percent, and that pretty much became the standard or the bar by which most departments or agencies measure their levels of participation. One of the things that started happening with the TIF projects, we believed or I would believe, because I really was working most times 30 3/21/03 - Commerce - BILLS 020816 and 020827 alone with Mr. Roundtree in the MBEC, and the developers, we believed that we needed to test the availability market to see if we could get more than and percent. And as we tested the market, we 6 increased the levels of participation. We increased 7 the levels of participation and in some instances 8 met those levels. In some instances we were not 9 able to meet the levels. 10 But we were convinced that the time had 11 come and gone to limiting participation by minority 12 and female and disabled businesses to 15, 10 and two 13 percent, and so we started stepping out and 14 increasing those levels to see what the market, in 15 fact, could bear. And in most instances, we found that the market could bear increased participation by minority businesses far in excess of the 15 percent. It has never been an effort to reach WBE goals, whether they were 10 percent or higher. It's never been an effort. And disabled businesses has been more of a challenge, but particularly with minority businesses, I believe -- and this is just my personal opinion -- that the levels of participation have always been less than the 31 3/21/03 - Commerce - BILLS 020816 and 020827 available market, and so we've always tried to increase those numbers.
Ms. Hamilton, let me ask you a question. What would prohibit a department from determining its own goals? I mean, is the department -- when you said earlier 17-500 established certain goals, does that not allow a particular department to establish higher goals since we're --
17-500 was only designed to measure the City's participation in a fiscal year. We may have limited ourselves in the application of 17-500 in applying rigid goals. There was never anything in 17-500 that prohibited any department from having higher levels of participation, and, in fact, the goals established in 17-500 were floors. They were minimums that were to be achieved, but, in reality, they ended up being maximums. They ended up being the ceiling. And so most levels of participation, the greater the commitment there is from the person who owns the project, the more likely you are to get a greater level of participation. And so increased participation, I 32 3/21/03 - Commerce - BILLS 020816 and 020827 believe from my experience, is also tied in to the commitment of the owner of the project to increasing participation in an effort to level the player field, particularly for minority businesses.
Okay. Thank you. Mr. Deegan, did you have anything to add?
Well, I would like to just add that we have reviewed the bill and we're looking forward to working with Council and with the Minority Enterprise Task Force. I notice we're on the resource council in the bill, and we're anxious to work with the administration with City Council in achieving the goals of the legislation.
Thank you. The Committee has also been joined by Councilman Ortiz as a member of the Committee. Ms. Hamilton, I just have a couple of questions. The Committee has been extremely busy here recently --
-- in the past few 33 3/21/03 - Commerce - BILLS 020816 and 020827 months, so I may mistake which hearing it was, but there was a hearing somewhere in the past week, ten days and there was discussion about the economic opportunity plans that were developed for both the Eagles and Phillies stadium and ballpark respectively. Can you, to the best of your recollection, give us a bit of the timetable during which the economic opportunity plans were developed? And I know that you had a professional transition from Council staff to either the Mayor's office or it may have been direct to PIDC. Could you share with us some of the timing and the work that went into the development of these plans? When did the process start?
The process for both stadiums started around 1998. Probably around 1998 or 1999 is when I had my first contact with both of the teams, and at that time, we were in a very, very early stage. I don't believe the state had yet approved the financing for the stadiums. But this was an attempt by the City Council working with the administration at that time to get a jump on what the potential opportunities 34 3/21/03 - Commerce - BILLS 020816 and 020827 could be in the stadiums, both in the design, the construction and the employment. One of the impediments to participation historically has been that the participation has been an afterthought on so many construction projects, and the opportunities were missed, because you just were not addressing this particular issue early enough in the process. And we did not want that to happen -- and when I say "we," I was on the City Council staff at the time -- we did not want that to be the case with these stadiums. And so we started before all of the financing had been approved. We started with the owners of the teams and the design firms of the teams. I think at that point the construction managers had not even been selected, although there was probably some discussion about which of the construction management firms would be selected. There was a period of inactivity as the discussion moved around the actual financing of the stadiums. Once the financing was in place, then the negotiations resumed with each of the teams. I think by then, we were into the year of 2000, and I had by then transitioned from City Council to the 35 3/21/03 - Commerce - BILLS 020816 and 020827 Mayor's office. And we, again, resumed negotiations directly with both of the teams.
Tell me when the drafting of the economic opportunity plans for the two stadiums started.
I would say mid 2000. And I'm really guessing, estimating at that time.
I understand. Let me try to help you with any of this. We approved the stadiums in December of 2000. Do you think the economic opportunity plan work started prior to that and then was subsequently completed after the legislation and the financing had been approved by Council?
We would have had to start drafting the document before submitting it for approval. What we did not want to do, if I recall correctly, is submit something that had not been confirmed nor agreed upon between the administration and the teams. And I do remember at that time there was some concern on the part of the teams because we were then -- and when I say "we," at this point I was in the Mayor's office -- we were contemplating 36 3/21/03 - Commerce - BILLS 020816 and 020827 goals of participation that exceeded anything we had ever done in the City. And we knew the goals were aggressive, and the teams were concerned about their ability to meet the goals and the appearance in the public realm if they were not able to meet what we knew were very aggressive goals.
Who are the members of the Stadium Oversight Committee?
We generally have representatives from the same user groups on both oversight committees.
The same user groups on both oversight committees. On both committees you have a representative from the City Council.
Approximately ten on each. One ten-person committee for the Eagles and one ten-person committee for the Phillies.
Any overlap between? 37 3/21/03 - Commerce - BILLS 020816 and 020827
Yes. There is overlap in that City Council has a representative on both. In fact, there were two City Council -- actually, on the Eagles there are three representatives. The City Council president is on both and sends a representative. There are two representatives on the Eagles besides the Council president, and there is one Council representative on the Phillies besides the Council president. The Philadelphia Building Trades Council is represented on both. The African-American Chamber is represented on both. The Minority Business Enterprise Council is represented on both. PIDC is represented on both. There are training providers, but separate training providers, that are on both. On the Eagles it is Top Win. Top Win is represented on the Eagles, and Congreso is represented on the Phillies.
Why don't I ask you this: If you could submit to us a complete list of the participants by name and either affiliation or organization or entity that they're representing, that will be helpful. 38 3/21/03 - Commerce - BILLS 020816 and 020827 How often does the Stadium Oversight Committee meet?
And when we received copies of the economic opportunity plan as you were putting them together, the one thing I noticed in both plans, and maybe there's another provision somewhere in the seven inches of various documents and leases and subleases, there was no provision in the economic opportunity plan for either enforcement or compliance or penalties for non-compliance. Can you tell me why that is?
Because there basically is little that you can do other than --
Because there is no -- there is nothing that legally compels the contractors. I mean, you can cajole, you can encourage, you can hope, you can beg, you can negotiate, and that's what we've done. 39 3/21/03 - Commerce - BILLS 020816 and 020827
Well, as a very free person, I don't really want to particularly be in the position of having to beg anybody to do anything.
Well, we tend to do whatever it takes to get minority participation increased. If you have a better way, please tell us, we'll use it.
I hear you. I'm not making a criticism or judgment. I guess what I'm saying is, no one had to beg me or I think any other member -- well, possibly with the exception of possibly Councilman Ortiz and Councilman Cohen, I don't remember anybody begging us to vote to support the two facilities in the first place. So I'm not exactly sure why we would now find ourselves in the position to have to beg for support and inclusion. (Applause.) Now, I'd like to go back to this issue of what we can do. If the private entities receive public support in terms of the financing, it would seem to me that somewhere in our contract with them, at a minimum, we should seek to have provisions that not only spell out some kind of compliance and 40 3/21/03 - Commerce - BILLS 020816 and 020827 enforceability provision, but it would seem it certainly possible to build in either what are referred to as claw-back clauses or some financial penalty for non-compliance. What is your position on that?
Well, we do have within each of the lease agreements between paid and each of the teams, we made the economic opportunity plans a substantial portion of the lease agreement, which means they are legal and binding documents. And we purposely included it in the lease agreement because we had no other direct agreement with any other entity.
Well, I understand that, but what's the penalty for non-compliance?
Technically there is a review of good-faith effort, and if after that review a determination is made that the teams have not demonstrated good faith, then there could be a default in the contract between the teams.
What is the definition of "good faith?" Tell me the definition of "good faith" and then tell me how you would determine that good faith had not been made. 41 3/21/03 - Commerce - BILLS 020816 and 020827
Good faith is typically measured by actions and the length of actions that you take to try to identify, to try to work with, to try to negotiate, to try to outreach. You look at the media outlets, the opportunities that you've provided to have an open process, the type of bid language that you include, the way you structure the bid packages, the specifications in the bids. So it is a review of several factors to see if those factors were utilized in an effort to reach out to minority and female and disabled-owned businesses.
Let me suggest this to you: If I were in school and I took my books home every night and I did my best to do my homework and I studied hard and I went to class and I was on time and I just did all the things that I was supposed to do. If I get a 69 on the test, do you think the teacher is going to give me a passing grade on good faith?
I've gotten a few 42 3/21/03 - Commerce - BILLS 020816 and 020827 69's in my time and I didn't get a passing grade. I guess the point is, and maybe through this experience all of us may seek to raise the bar a little bit, I think folks have figured out how to do good faith, and you can go through all the process, all the procedures, all the motions. I mean, if I were trying to get a billion and a half dollars worth of work done, I mean, I'd make it my business to at least go through the good faith so that no one could say anything to me about it. I think what we're now talking about is results. I have my faith, live it every day of the week, try to go to church every now and then. We're talking about jobs, contracts and opportunity and results. They can keep the good faith. I think most of us want to get to the results stage. So it seems to me that if you have a contract that says -- and as you put it, it's a legally binding document, and if people are willing to sign it and it says that you're supposed to be at a certain performance level and if you fail to meet those levels, there is a financial penalty to you, oh, now I think you're talking about a different story. I think you're talking about a different 43 3/21/03 - Commerce - BILLS 020816 and 020827 level of good faith, because now you're messing with the money. Folks don't like messing with the money. You can talk about all the good faith you want, but if their lawyers can figure out, You do these five things, you've met the good-faith test and there's no penalty to you, that's one thing. You do these five things, you met the good-faith test, but there's a penalty for not performing, that's a different kind of story. So was there ever any discussion about penalties for non-compliance?
Well, the greatest issue for achieving a level of participation from my experience has come through working with the building trades and the contractors themselves. And so to the extent that there are penalties imposed on the contractors or the trades, I don't think any of this will change.
Well, I appreciate that. I mean, we can have that discussion, but we didn't give the money to the building trades. We gave the money to the two teams.
Then you need to have the teams answer that question. I can answer for my 44 3/21/03 - Commerce - BILLS 020816 and 020827 role and what I see as --
I'm asking your opinion about the prospect of having those kinds of provisions in place with the people that we give our money to and whether or not, in your opinion, that might be helpful in this process to say, You have a contract with us, we gave you $304 million, total value over the years is $394 million by which you 10 claim if we didn't give you that money, you couldn't 11 build your two stadiums to make all of yourselves 12 rich. That's fine. We live in America. We're not 13 in Afghanistan. We believe in people making money. 14 For which you have now agreed in good faith and 15 under penalty of law to do certain things. We hope 16 you perform, but if you don't, we want some of our 17 money back that you claim you needed to build these 18 facilities. 19 Now, you can go do whatever you want to 20 do and never really have to talk to us if you don't want the $394 million, because then that's your business. But if you want to have a conversation and a relationship financial with us, these are the terms and conditions. We want you to perform. You said you want to perform. Everybody wants to 45 3/21/03 - Commerce - BILLS 020816 and 020827 perform. But if there are no penalties for non-performance, what difference does it make? I'm asking you in your professional capacity, if a person is under penalty of law and can lose money, do they have more incentive to perform than not?
Councilman, I have always supported and believe that with the lack of consequence, you always get less than what you desire. You will not get a disagreement from me on either punitive, financial consequences. I tend to be -- I think I tend to be aggressive.
I recommend not making awards. I recommend rejecting the low bidder. I recommend holding back payments.
So let me ask, in the course of the development of the economic opportunity plan, was there a discussion about financial penalties in the contract for non-compliance?
There are always those discussions, because you always want to use the greatest amount of leverage that is available to 46 3/21/03 - Commerce - BILLS 020816 and 020827 you.
I understand. Was a decision made to not include those provisions in the economic opportunity plan as a part of the contract?
I think the decision was based on what was available to us legally, what was available to us legally.
If you can legally get money back for a project, if you can legally withhold financing, then if those avenues are available to you, then use them. If they're not available to you --
Wait a minute. That's about the terms and conditions of how we decide we want to turn over the money. I mean, we weren't required to give them $394 million.
Then get it back if you're not happy. I would suggest if this Council had to do that and it has got that ability to take 47 3/21/03 - Commerce - BILLS 020816 and 020827 the money back and you're not happy with the level of participation, then get the money back.
But I asked that question just the other day. I mean, at least as explained to me by other parties, I mean, our money was the first money out the door, has been spent and it now serves as a foundation for both of the facilities. We bought property. They built stadiums on top of them. I don't think we're getting money back. I don't think we're going to take the land back. What I'm saying is, if you have those provisions up front -- I mean, look, this is not necessarily my business in the world that I operate in. I consider you to be an expert and a professional in the area. But I think that we have some ability, even as a government, unlike the private sector, to put some reasonable terms and conditions on the expenditure of taxpayers' dollars. I mean, in the private sector, if two companies are involved in a mega merger, I mean, there are penalties for not completing the deal just for not going through with a merger. 48 3/21/03 - Commerce - BILLS 020816 and 020827
I think our greatest effort when we talk about getting money back is not with owners of these projects who receive the funds and get one project built and then you don't hear from them again. I think our greatest ability is to work with the actual contractors and the building trades who will work on that one project, simultaneously work on five others and once that's complete, work on ten others, and that's just within the city. It's not even talking about those same contractors and those same building trades that are also working in the counties surrounding Philadelphia. So I think our greatest leverage is if you're talking about penalties and sanctions -- and one of the things that we've always talked about is, you don't see a vast variety of contractors on any of these projects. You can go from public project to private project and it's the same contractors from job to job to job.
At some point there should be some penalty or some understanding that a contractor has that if you are not able to comply 49 3/21/03 - Commerce - BILLS 020816 and 020827 with what we're trying to do here, then don't expect to be on the next job. Now, we have nothing to do with the private jobs, but we at least can say, If you can't help us on this job, don't come to us for the next public job. And the same thing with the trade unions. If we can't get more opportunities for employment by minorities and females in the trades and apprenticeships, then don't keep coming to us looking for opportunities in the public sector.
And what mechanism would you suggest that we utilize to ensure that message and enforce that message?
The message that they all understand is economic. If it's not economic, the response is less.
I understand that, but I need you to be more specific with me in terms of what actual tool or mechanism. We've already gone over the fact that we don't actually contract with them directly and don't give them any money. So I need you to give me a specific and concrete example of what we would do.
I think in reading one of 50 3/21/03 - Commerce - BILLS 020816 and 020827 these bills, there is a provision. If a company is not submitting a plan and ostensibly there's some monitoring and some approval process of a plan that a company or developer submits and then reporting of that compliance over -- I think there's a provision for two reports in a year. If they haven't complied, I'm not sure there is much you can do on that current job, but there is certainly something that you can do going forward, which is, I think you call for debarment of a company on future jobs. I think when we -- and the City has always had debarment in a lot of instances available to it, but if we don't utilize what we have --
It takes will to debar a company. It takes will to not award to the apparent low bidder. And so there's got to be a measure of will and determination and guts.
Are you saying that some companies have been recommended for debarment but the government was reluctant to actually take the action --
-- or they don't 51 3/21/03 - Commerce - BILLS 020816 and 020827 even get to the recommendation stage?
I don't even know how often recommendations for debarment -- I mean, I think it is prudent on behalf of the City to exhaust measures prior to debarment. And so if the City can do that, I think they should, but I believe that there are some contractors who have probably participated on very public projects and have not reached the levels of participation that we think are possible and just continue to get work.
One last question. It was reported to us by GPUAC again in one of our many recent hearings, I think about a week ago, that the employment goals for the Eagles' and Phillies' facilities were established at 45 percent for minorities, five percent for women and that the current numbers have both for both facilities somewhere in the 28, 29 percent range for minorities. Now, having put so much time and effort, especially as you detailed up front, in trying to put together economic opportunity plans, you didn't want things to be as an afterthought and the like, what's your perspective given the amount of time, 52 3/21/03 - Commerce - BILLS 020816 and 020827 effort and serious attention to this when you hear these particular numbers?
It's difficult to accurately assess the market of available tradespersons without real data from the trades. What we do know is, we have at least 75 to 100 graduates of the pre-apprentice programs who are available for processing at least into the trades.
Some of the feedback that we get from the trades is that a commitment to sponsorship is longer than these particular jobs.
Sponsorship in some of the trades is a four-year endeavor, and there is not four years -- now, I'm telling you what they tell me. I'm telling you what they tell me. That a sponsorship of four years extends beyond the term of the construction projects, and so a contractor not only --
You don't have to stay on the one job that you're going to work to, do you? 53 3/21/03 - Commerce - BILLS 020816 and 020827
Does anybody believe that there's not going to be work the next year or the following year or the following year?
Most tradespeople once they -- most tradespeople, most tradespeople stay fully employed from job to job to job.
I don't know what you're building that would take four years. I mean, maybe the World Trade Center or something, but I mean --
So I don't understand how the answer has any relevance to the situation. No one expects to, quote/unquote, be sponsored for four years on one job. But the tradespeople are working every year somewhere for those four years, whether in Philly or the surrounding counties. So how is that answer even relevant?
We absolutely agree with 54 3/21/03 - Commerce - BILLS 020816 and 020827 you. And what our position has been is, we would rather get someone -- we would rather get someone on a job for two or three years, and even if they become unemployed after the completion of these two stadiums, they at least will have skills and experience that they have for two years. So we'd rather take two years of work and opportunity than no years of work.
Well, is there any requirement that the people who come out of our various training programs actually get sponsored or go to work? I mean, what's the purpose of getting trained if you're not going to go to work?
That's a question that you have to raise with the trades. That's not a question that I'm appropriate in answering. That's a trades question, because what we have done is worked to make sure that the pool is available. So when the trades say, Well, we don't have enough persons to take a test, we make sure that we've created the pool so that is no longer an argument. The next step for us now is to get the trades to open up their doors for those persons that have come through the pre-apprenticeship programs. 55 3/21/03 - Commerce - BILLS 020816 and 020827
I hear what you're saying. I guess personally I would say -- you're absolutely right, it is a trades question, but it's not just a trades question. Again, it is a question of how we spend the taxpayers' dollars and what requirements we put on those dollars. And why would we engage in a process where the money goes to the owners, we've already established that the work is going to be done by the trades, but have no ability to ensure that Philadelphians, to a greater extent, who take the time, who have the self-reliance, who put forward their good faith and best efforts to go through a training program and we can't, to the best of our ability, ensure that there's going to be something for them to do once they come out of the program, after we give the folks the money, who then turn around and decide not to employ our folks? I mean, it's the worst of a self-fulfilling prophecy.
What I would say to then, in addition to the trades, then the Council has to do more. And this is all due respect, but these are projects --
I appreciate it. You're not going to hurt my feelings. 56 3/21/03 - Commerce - BILLS 020816 and 020827
It takes a certain level of political will to deal with the trade unions and with the contractors. (Applause.) And we do all that we can do within the confines of the authority that we have. And so we are the worker bees who are drones trying to make these economic opportunity plans happen. But the real authority and the power is political. It is absolutely political.
Well, I absolutely agree with you, and I think that whatever we can do from the contract side in terms of what comes into us and how extensive our process is and what --
I suggest we subpoena the leaders of the building trades unions to come to 57 3/21/03 - Commerce - BILLS 020816 and 020827 a Council hearing and explain their position. And if our original resolution does not contain the subpoena language, I would suggest that a public meeting that we hold today, we authorize the Committee to subpoena them. I think it's an absolute disgrace what's going on. (Applause.)
Thank you, Councilman. We'll figure that out in the course of the --
If I may, I would agree with the Councilman. I mean, we have to start acknowledging where the problem lies.
I understand. I think that in the contracting process and the public hearing process and in the public and private conversations that take place around these projects, one, you're absolutely right, this Council can and should and must do more. I think that our ultimate involvement in this is the approval, usually by way of an ordinance, sometimes by resolution, of these projects and the funding that goes with them. But I guess I would also say to you that 58 3/21/03 - Commerce - BILLS 020816 and 020827 as the Council has a certain level of involvement and responsibility, you also know having worked on this side of the house we don't sign contracts. Because we are often reminded, most of us as active legislators, usually by the Law Department, when they say "the City," and they're very clear in reminding us that when the Law Department says "the City," they're not talking about us, the City Council. When they talk about "the City," they're also talking about and only talking about the Mayor. You can't sign a contract with City Council. You sign a contract with the City. So the absolute ultimate -- and that is no shift in responsibility, because you don't get a bill and the Major doesn't get to sign a bill unless it comes through this place first, and so we have our fair share of responsibility, but the ultimate hammer here is the lack of signature on a contract. And that's only done by one person. So I think that there's a mutual responsibility here and there needs to be an extensive discussion about what any of us are willing to do or not do in this regard, but I think we have to be fair, we have to be honest, we have to 59 3/21/03 - Commerce - BILLS 020816 and 020827 be legitimate about who plays what role or what entities play what roles in this process. And if both components of this government are working in sync on these particular issues, we can actually get some progress done. I got a point of order from Councilman DiCicco and then I know Councilman Clarke wants to respond to some earlier information.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I just need a little bit more clarity on this sponsorship issue. Are you saying that if I am a member of a particular union and if I wanted to bring along my friend, Wilson Goode, Jr., to become a tradesperson, either a carpenter, a electrician, a cement mason, what-have-you, that I would sponsor him to be a member of that union, that local union?
You sponsor him for his apprenticeship period until he has the requisite time to become a journeyman or a journey person.
But there is no 23 guarantee that he will be employed; is that correct? I mean, you get a card and you have a card that says, I'm a member of a particular local. 60 3/21/03 - Commerce - BILLS 020816 and 020827
Councilman, I don't know all of the nuances. That's why I think some of the trade-related questions are better addressed to the trade unions.
Because getting a card is one thing, but getting work -- I can live without a card. It's the paycheck that matters in the end. But I think Councilman Cohen is correct, we probably need to bring some of trades folks in to get some of their background on this. Thank you.
And not just the trades again. I want to add, it's the contractors also, the contractors and the trades.
And the contractors as well. And the contractors as well. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Sitting Chair. I actually wanted to respond to an earlier question to Ms. Hamilton with respect to the 61 3/21/03 - Commerce - BILLS 020816 and 020827 oversight committees on the two stadiums and the formulation of an economic opportunity plan leading up to the final passage of the bill. Having participated on both stadium oversight committees, I must say it's been an experience and a learning experience as it relates to some of the problems associated with getting access, and I'm a little bit more knowledgeable as a result of that. With respect to the formulation of the equal opportunity plan, as you know, there are things that happen sometimes that are not always public as it relates to the ultimate formulation of the legislation. There were a number of things that happened, particularly around that particular aspect of that project, early on in the process. Traditional numbers were put on the table. I think it was the 15, 10, maybe the 20, 15 numbers that we traditionally felt were inadequate. Leading up to the final passage of that vote, there was some very, very aggressive deliberations on both sides of the table by a couple of members of Council. There was actually a letter submitted to the teams and the administration as it 62 3/21/03 - Commerce - BILLS 020816 and 020827 relates to what we thought was the appropriate requirement for participation both in contracts and in employment -- and I guess I can reference the authors of that particular bill, Councilman Goode, Jr. and Councilwoman Miller and myself -- that requested 50 percent both in terms of contracts and employment, because we thought that it should be equivalent to the population of the City of Philadelphia. As Ms. Hamilton earlier stated, there was some reluctance by both the teams to agree to those goals because they didn't think they were achievable and they didn't want to, in fact, agree to a goal that they believed was not achievable early on in the process. We insisted on those participation levels, and the deal almost got derailed as a result of that. As recent as the last day, the day of the vote, there was actually a requirement to include in the minority participation plan the concession stands on the Eagles, a deal that was done prior to the submission to the City Council of Philadelphia, a requirement to include participation 63 3/21/03 - Commerce - BILLS 020816 and 020827 goals on that particular portion of the Eagles stadium. And there was a heated discussion in the hallway outside of the chambers where one of the Eagles spokespersons, or I don't know if you want to call him an owner, said the deal is off, they were moving. And these are things that were not reported in the public. And that person was simply told to pack their bags and leave. People got the individuals together and calmed everything down, and there was some further discussion and there then was an agreement to include the concession stands as a part of the equal opportunity plan. So there were a lot of things that were done. And understanding all throughout the course of this process, we were told by our advisors, both Council lawyers and the administration lawyers, that what we were attempting to do was not a legal requirement by the teams, but in spite of that, we continued to insist on that. As a result of that, there were some commitments made. One of the concerns that we had is that our ability to ensure that those commitments were kept was not going to be very easy, 64 3/21/03 - Commerce - BILLS 020816 and 020827 particularly for elected officials, who tend to find ways to do other things during the course of the day, get involved in a number of different things and not have the ability to monitor adequately that process. So as a part of that negotiation, it was agreed upon by both teams to hire an entity, monitoring entity, which was the Greater Philadelphia Urban Affairs Coalition, to provide that assistance.
In addition to which there was also a commitment to set up oversight committees, because we believe based on earlier projects that were not government sponsored that the ability to have, at a minimum, an oversight committee that was reflective to some degree for the people and the citizens of the City to have access to information. I must say as a result of that process, we got -- and I have to believe we got more than we would have gotten had that earlier request not been made for the high levels of participation or having in place some entity that could help us in terms of monitoring the process and ultimately achieving some levels that have surpassed any levels that we had gotten prior to. 65 3/21/03 - Commerce - BILLS 020816 and 020827 But I must say we were not, at the end of the day, not satisfied with the ultimate levels, particularly on the employment side. And I agree with Ms. Hamilton that the difficulties associated with having people in the trades, and not only having them in the trades, but also being sent to the site, is something that we got to figure out a way to get in place, because that, at the end of the day, is the difficulties we envision. One of the reasons that I introduced these bills and I will be soon introducing another bill was as a result of my experience in those oversight committees where I saw -- in fact, we on the City level and the municipal level as it relates to our contracts weren't doing nearly as well as what we were requiring other individuals to do. And I thought that, frankly speaking, that was pretty amazing, that we required the Eagles and the Phillies to have 50 percent participation and we were hovering around five percent participation, which is why I thought it was appropriate to introduce some legislation to, first of all, create a mechanism that will allow people access to a process to sit on a task force, an oversight task 66 3/21/03 - Commerce - BILLS 020816 and 020827 force, have that information available to it so it can determine and get credible numbers as a result of the contacts that we are letting and increase our ability to have information to get additional contracts, but also another piece of legislation that creates a disbarment process that, at the end of the day, hopefully that task force will be in a position to encourage our procurement commissioner and the finance director to, in fact, disbar organizations that don't comply with some of these goals that we set. So a lot of times in this process there are things that you don't see that happen behind the scenes. And I just want to say it is a very difficult process. It is our responsibility, I agree with you, Ms. Hamilton, that at the end of the day, we're elected to provide leadership as it relates to dealing with this very troublesome issue, and I want to say that I'm going to do the best I can, starting with these two bills here, and hopefully get them passed so, at a minimum, it can put people at the table to try and access information and then ultimately get programs implemented that had the participation of MBEs and 67 3/21/03 - Commerce - BILLS 020816 and 020827 WBEs and DBEs across the board.
Councilman, one of reasons with the oversight committee, when you see the compositions of the oversight committees, we have had a conscientious effort to include all groups, irrespective of how you think and how you feel and your philosophies. We have never been afraid of people who have differing opinions. So there have been in each of these oversight committees efforts to include participants from all areas. Because you need -- often times when we get accustomed to doing the same thing all the time, we can sometimes lose focus and not keep the broader picture in mind. So we have, again, on both of these oversight committees and on every oversight committee that I've been involved in, we've always had representatives from the building trades. We've always had representatives from the business community. We've always had representatives from the African-American Chamber of Commerce, from the Hispanic Chamber of Commerce, from training providers. This is not something that has only happened one time. 68 3/21/03 - Commerce - BILLS 020816 and 020827 These are groups that we have made a conscious effort to make sure they are at the table. And if they are not at the table, it's not because they are not formal members of these committees. It's because for whatever reason they don't make it to the meetings. But they're on these committees. And what I've said to some contractors is, rather than us beating up on each other, each of us has a role to play. I will never tell the contractors that if their desire is to protest somewhere they shouldn't do that. They've got their role. I've got my role. And what I try to do, because it's not what you do doesn't mean I'm not working on your behalf. So there are three and four and five different constituency groups that are working for the same objective. So don't tell me I've got to do it your way, and I'm not going to tell you you've got to do it my way. Because as long as there is pressure to bear from five different groups, we've got a better chance of getting something to happen. And with these oversight committees, I think we've been fairly successful in accomplishing that.
Thank you. 69 3/21/03 - Commerce - BILLS 020816 and 020827 Thank you, Mr. Chair.
We've got three things. Councilman DiCicco needs to leave some information on the record. Councilman Goode has a question and Councilman Cohen wishes to be heard as well. Councilman DiCicco?
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I need to leave on Council business. I'm not certain if I'll be back before the end of these hearings, so I'd like to have my vote recorded as yes for any bills and/or amendments. Thank you.