What's the difference? COMMISSIONER TOLSON: Surely. The quantity set-outs will vary.
Quantity? COMMISSIONER TOLSON: The quantity set-outs change.
People put out less trash in the spring? COMMISSIONER TOLSON: They begin to put out more in the spring.
So, if you're putting out more trash, why would you eliminate the service in the spring? COMMISSIONER TOLSON: Well, it's more relative to the individual area. In the area where there's twice a week, they are actually lower total trash than the average 1891 Whole - Operating Budget - 3/29/05 household in the city.
Say that again. COMMISSIONER TOLSON: In the twice-a-week collection area, the average quantity of trash per household is 43 pounds -- I'm sorry -- 44 pounds. The average citywide for the other 525,000 is 48 pounds. So, it's actually under the -- under the average. The average is simply the mathematical average, not meaning --
How can you be averaging that, if there's twice a week in one section and once a week in the other section? COMMISSIONER TOLSON: We actually went out...
How are you averaging that? Are you averaging on the pickup day? COMMISSIONER TOLSON: No. We actually went out and weighed the trash. We went... We went out. We weighed the trash. We did household counts to determine when 1892 Whole - Operating Budget - 3/29/05 people put their trash out. There was a number of behaviors that we found that even though there was -- there's -- one fact is the amount of trash is less. The other fact was that people -- all people were not using both days. At the first day received about 80 percent of the trash; the second day received percent of 11 the trash. 12 And further, only... I think it was 13 75 percent which I don't remember off the top 14 of my head. 25 percent used both days. 15
So you're 16 telling me two days of trash pickup combined, 17 an aggregate, is less than one day in trash 18 pickup in the remainder of the city. 19 COMMISSIONER TOLSON: The average of 20 the city, that's correct.
I don't believe that. COMMISSIONER TOLSON: It's the same over seven days.
I don't believe 1893 Whole - Operating Budget - 3/29/05 that. Commissioner, come on. I mean, I live in the twice-a-week area, and it's no 5 way in the world that two days of trash collection is less than one day of trash collection in the other parts of the city. It's just not... That's fantasy. COMMISSIONER TOLSON: The consumption is the same. The frequency of putting it out may vary. So, whether you're putting it out twice a week, three times a week, you're still only putting out over that week's period a week's worth of trash, and a week's worth of consumption or trash. I should say, a week's worth of trash is a small amount, but about ten percent less than the average.
All right. So, I guess what I'm seeing is, it's just not accurate visually. Can you get me the information to show where you get the analysis, where you weighed the refuse, you know, how you did the determination as it relates to -- 1894 Whole - Operating Budget - 3/29/05 COMMISSIONER TOLSON: Yes.
-- numbers, and if you strategically weighed it, not just went on one particular block, one particular day. I'd be interested to see where you got the demographics from. COMMISSIONER TOLSON: Yes.
Okay. So, when you -- Because this is not the first time you attempted to do this. You've been working on this for some time. At this particular time you were seemingly successful. I guess I'm not as close to the Mayor as some people would like to characterize me as being. During the last several years, since you've been coming to the representative of this particular area, have you done an analysis on the refuse, the collections on those particular areas on a yearly basis? Do you have documents to show on a yearly basis what your analysis is or did you just simply discard the old ones or just basically acting on the most recent analysis? 1895 Whole - Operating Budget - 3/29/05 COMMISSIONER TOLSON: No. No. I'm not sure -- I don't know -- I'm not sure I understand. Let me ask you what I think.
Tell me what the patterns are now, that now if there's any changes in the pattern, as it relates to that particular area, that now causes you to make those collections, because it's my contention that it's a budget issue. You continue to say a standardization. And now I'm hearing you say that there's less trash in that particular area than there is in the other parts of the city to support your claim of standardization. Well, what I want to see is you showing me over a period of time where there's a pattern that has developed, all right, that has created the environment where now all of a sudden it's prudent for you to proceed with the elimination of that. COMMISSIONER TOLSON: Well, I think that pattern comes about when you look at the population for those areas, population or 1896 Whole - Operating Budget - 3/29/05 density, that has dramatically changed over the last 40 or 50 years that's decreased. I'm not aware of --
Well, Commissioner -- Commissioner, the population in the City of Philadelphia is dramatically changed over the last 40 or 50 years. COMMISSIONER TOLSON: Correct, yes.
You can't just pick on that. What is it, the highway district? We're changing that? COMMISSIONER TOLSON: Yes.
Or is it the Third Highway District? COMMISSIONER TOLSON: Yes.
So you can't just say the population has changed in the highway district over the last 40 or 50 years caused you to come to that conclusion, when the population in the city has changed over that period of time. COMMISSIONER TOLSON: Right. But that's why we believe that we can standardize around them once per week versus having the 1897 Whole - Operating Budget - 3/29/05 once per week and the twice per week collections. But maybe...
It's not driven by budget issues. COMMISSIONER TOLSON: Certainly the budget is impacted by it. And there's some...
I'm not saying is the budget impacted. I'm saying, does the budget determine the need to do this now? COMMISSIONER TOLSON: No. It was selected as a budget initiative recently. But it has been an issue, with regard to trying to understand why we do it, when the date and statistics don't necessarily support the need for it twice a week. The density was not there. The amount of trash that was set out, I mean, it was not... But the rest of the city was doing 48 pounds per week. And in the twice-a-week area they were doing 60 pounds or 70 pounds. In fact, they were only -- they were doing 44 pounds, a little bit less than people who were receiving once-per-week 1898 Whole - Operating Budget - 3/29/05 collections.
Okay. I dispute that number, but you'll get something to prove that. COMMISSIONER TOLSON: Yes, I will.
When you talk about the density, what does that third highway encompass? COMMISSIONER TOLSON: The twice-a-week areas, I don't have that -- a map in front of me, Councilman. There's some selected areas numbers. It's not all of North Philadelphia, certainly. But it covers parts of Fairmount, parts of Strawberry Mansion. There's some area east of Broad Street, I think down to 6th or 5th Street. It's a relatively small area. As I said, it's 25,000 out of 550,000 households. I can't give you the boundaries off the top of my head.
So, where would you say the population decline has happened in that highway district? 1899 Whole - Operating Budget - 3/29/05 COMMISSIONER TOLSON: Well, it's occurred all over, all over the city.
Well, let's stick to the... Because you made reference to the decline in population, i.e., density in that area. Where has that occurred in that area? COMMISSIONER TOLSON: I can get you the data with regard to the census information and census changes.
You don't know off the top of your head? COMMISSIONER TOLSON: Not off the top of my head.
Is there a decline in Fairmount? COMMISSIONER TOLSON: Off the top of my head I could not answer that.
Is there anyone in here that can do that? COMMISSIONER TOLSON: Off the top of their head? I doubt it.
Nobody knows about Fairmount in the Streets Department? 1900 Whole - Operating Budget - 3/29/05 COMMISSIONER TOLSON: No. Well, we know about Fairmount, but to address the census information, I think we'd be at a challenge to give you accurate information.
So you're a lifelong citizen of the City of Philadelphia, and you don't know what's happening in Fairmount as it relates to -- COMMISSIONER TOLSON: Oh, absolutely.
-- population and density. COMMISSIONER TOLSON: The housing is still here. The housing has always been populated. There's low or no vacancy rate in that community. That's part of the community. I would add, though, you know, in my term here the people from Fairmount were one of those that were clamoring that it was unfair to have it.
It was unfair to have... COMMISSIONER TOLSON: Twice a week. 1901 Whole - Operating Budget - 3/29/05
You were getting calls? COMMISSIONER TOLSON: Yes, indeed.
Where were they at? Because I need to talk to those people. I need them to go talk to the people that are calling me about the concerns about the elimination of the second day. I mean... COMMISSIONER TOLSON: I have --
Seems like we're getting... I mean, you have certain statistics on the amount of debris that's being put out. And now you're telling me that there are people in Fairmount who are interested in having a trash day eliminated. COMMISSIONER TOLSON: Right. I'm not using that as part of my basis for decision-making. I simply use that as an additive, if you're talking about the Fairmount issue. The basis for decision-making is the solid qualitative census data and surveys. 1902 Whole - Operating Budget - 3/29/05
All right. And I'm not saying that's a basis for your decision, but you're saying that there are people in Fairmount who are interested in having a trash day eliminated. COMMISSIONER TOLSON: Absolutely.
And I'd be interested to know who that is, because I'm getting just the contrary. COMMISSIONER TOLSON: I'll go back and look at it --
People don't understand -- COMMISSIONER TOLSON: -- and I'll see if I have anything, if I have kept anything.
-- why the Councilman in the 5th District can't hold onto a second day trash pickup because of his relationship, allegedly, with certain people in government. So, I would like to find out who is requesting that. I know I'm over my time, Madam 1903 Whole - Operating Budget - 3/29/05 President. I can come back.
Thank you. The Chair recognizes Councilman Rizzo.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Commissioner, two issues. One was a survey that the Managing Director's Office, or program that I'm confident that you were involved in this, is the fact that the state I believe, maybe Federal Government, city money went into the restoration many years ago, maybe early '90s, of Germantown Avenue, to restore all of the Belgium blocks in the restoration of the S.E.P.T.A. right-of-way. It really looked nice. And as repairs developed, emergencies, the blocks were removed and that blacktop material was put back just to... supposedly a temporary repair. Well, some of those blacktop repairs have been there for years and years and years. And a pretty thoroughfare now looks like patchwork, where you can just -- It's 1904 Whole - Operating Budget - 3/29/05 not attractive any longer. A recent storm, as you know, because I was on site, where the little blocks -- They're about two, three inches square, maybe four inches square. They just washed away. And Nancy Sin... Is that how you pronounce it? COMMISSIONER TOLSON: Yes.
...indicated that they were going to just make some temporary repairs by using blacktop. That's six months ago. I believe that the Managing Director's Office, when Estelle Richman was here, developed some plan that the Streets Department was supposed to implement, to make that whole again, to repair or replace the blocks along Germantown Avenue, again, a very historic roadway. Now, it's just every place you look there's a dig-up where blacktop has been left instead of the blocks replaced. Could you resurrect and provide to the Chair the plan that you have from... I 1905 Whole - Operating Budget - 3/29/05 would assume it's Allens Lane north to city -- to Bethlehem Pike or maybe a few hundred yards beyond Bethlehem Pike. But that's something that really should not let -- that should not be let go any longer because it's really -- it looks bad. And it was never -- It was never intended to be repaired that way. The commitment was that those temporary repairs would be removed and the blocks restored. And as you know, that's not the case. An example is some of the repairs that S.E.P.T.A. made which took weeks to get done and dozens of vehicles damaged, wheel covers all over the roadway. That ditch never got repaired on the one I described earlier on Germantown Avenue just south of Cresheim Drive. But the whole roadway... I believe that there was a plan. There was money budgeted for that repair. Could you comment? COMMISSIONER TOLSON: I will gladly check into that issue, Councilman. I'm not 1906 Whole - Operating Budget - 3/29/05 familiar with that.
Is there anyone here that could? COMMISSIONER TOLSON: No. They're not familiar with that either. So, we will check into that.
I notice that the Streets Department has a fleet of tractor and trailers. At least I have seen in the past tractor trailers that transport from, I think Domino, maybe other locations. Why are we in the business today of hauling trash in city-owned vehicles? Why is that not part of the contract to dispose of trash at the transfer stations? Why are we still in this business? COMMISSIONER TOLSON: The city... I'll back up by saying that our city never wants to be in a position to be thoroughly dependent upon any sector to provide services. Having our own facility at the northwest transfer station, when there are no 25 private facilities in the city in the 1907 Whole - Operating Budget - 3/29/05 northwest section of the city, allows us some flexibility, and it certainty gives us a price advantage when looking at disposal. We're charged a premium when we go to transfer stations, and we get discounted when we take the materials ourselves. So, there's a benefit for the city to provide that service.
So you're telling me this is kind of like our police radio system. We have a backup system. This is like a backup system for what. What would be... COMMISSIONER TOLSON: I wouldn't call it a backup system because we could not handle the entire city's trash out of that facility. But it gives us a flexibility that we wouldn't have if we didn't own it.
Could you break out and provide to the Chair the costs associated with that tractor trailer operation that hauls trash from Domino Lane to where -- Where does it go, Commissioner? Does it vary. 1908 Whole - Operating Budget - 3/29/05 COMMISSIONER TOLSON: In our present contract it's going to Conestoga Landfill.
So, we run city-owned tractor trailers from -- COMMISSIONER TOLSON: Certainly.
-- Philadelphia to... COMMISSIONER TOLSON: That's close. Some of the private haulers are going a lot farther than that.
Okay. I'd be interested to know what that operation costs. But you're telling me that that is something that could be done by the private sector, correct? COMMISSIONER TOLSON: Certainly the private sector offers those services. And, in fact, we are using those throughout the other districts in the city. The city no 24 longer has -- We do not own any landfills. We are also in a position that we 1909 Whole - Operating Budget - 3/29/05 don't own any waste energy facilities. So, we are wholly dependent upon the goodness of the waste industry to provide services to us. That's not necessarily a good position to be in, but that's where we are.
You're welcome. Commissioner, on -26 of the detail, you're requesting $50,000 in FY'05 and FY'06 for Motorola City Works Work Order System. Can you explain what this is and why it is budgeted in both years? COMMISSIONER TOLSON: Evelyn. If I can give you the short answer, I'll give you that. But if you want more, I'll ask our I.T. director to address that. That's a work management system.
I'm sorry? COMMISSIONER TOLSON: Work management.
Work? 1910 Whole - Operating Budget - 3/29/05 COMMISSIONER TOLSON: Work order system, work management system, where you can, you know, call in and then track a job through conclusion. So, we can dispatch a job, and then have the workers track the job in terms of completion of the task, you know, in assigned time.
I don't understand your response. Is it a license fee every year? Exactly what is it for? COMMISSIONER TOLSON: No. That's a maintenance fee.
Seems like a lot of money. Are you looking for the page number. Sir, are you looking for the page number. COMMISSIONER TOLSON: No. We have it.
Oh, okay. I thought he was trying to get some sort of response. COMMISSIONER TOLSON: No. 25
I think it 1911 Whole - Operating Budget - 3/29/05 sounds like an awful lot of money. I would like you in writing to elaborate exactly what that does, please. COMMISSIONER TOLSON: Surely.
On some of these technology issues, do we ever ask? In other words, you talked a bit ago that we need a contract because you don't have in-house expertise to do certain things, so you need to do a contract. Do you ask information systems to help with these projects before you give a contract? I mean, they seem to have plenty of time on their hands. They're going to build -- I hear tomorrow they're going to announce a new Wi-Fi system that they're going to involve themselves in. I wish they'd focus on the core and provide service to you before they take on these other programs. I mean, who have you asked? Because I'm curious why they don't 1912 Whole - Operating Budget - 3/29/05 have the ability to support your needs, meaning information systems.
I'm sorry. You're going to have to identify yourself for the stenographer.
My name is Evelyn Kroll. I'm the I.T. Director for the Streets Department. Mayor's Office Information Services focuses on the enterprise-wide systems, systems that support the city as a whole, instead of just financial or personnel systems, where they're common processes. The individual agencies support the applications that provide for their own mission, the services that they provide. And they're usually, you know, specialized programs that provide for the different missions of the departments. And Mayor's Office Information Services does review all of our contracts, though. We do work with them. We have a 1913 Whole - Operating Budget - 3/29/05 partnership with them in reviewing contracts. We can't either, you know, have an R.F.P. on our own and award it on our own. We work with them. They review it. We always have a scope of services and provide the justification for why those services are needed. And they review those before they're let. We don't do it on our own.
I hear what you're saying sounds good, but you would think that we would be able to get support from them, even though it's not a citywide; it's a specialty. I think we have some specialists over there that could be helpful.
You know, when they do have someone that can, you know, provide the service they can, but they also are providing the mainframe systems and the citywide services.
So that other consultant you hired, you're suggesting that they signed off on that, saying that they could not support your request that you 1914 Whole - Operating Budget - 3/29/05 needed to hire a consultant.
Right. They agreed that it was a justified use, and they didn't have the resources, right.
You're welcome. The Chair recognizes Councilwoman Miller.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Good afternoon, Commissioner and staff. Just want to thank you for getting the Bellfield Avenue project done and pretty much on time. And one concern that the residents have that I'm sure you're going to address anyway is the line striping; you know, on the new part of the road they need to get some line stripes there. COMMISSIONER TOLSON: I'm sorry. I didn't hear... 1915 Whole - Operating Budget - 3/29/05
Line striping. COMMISSIONER TOLSON: On which street were you talking about?
Bellfield Avenue. That's one of the streets that had the big hole during one of the storms. COMMISSIONER TOLSON: Yes.
And it just reopened, I guess, maybe... I guess within the past couple weeks. I'd also be interested in getting information on the 48 locations out of the 221 that will be part of the Slowdown Philadelphia Program. And how did you come up with just 48 out of 221? What's the criteria? On page... Slowdown Philadelphia. in your testimony on under traffic engineering. COMMISSIONER TOLSON: Yes. The 48 number that you reference, is that out of 221 locations that we surveyed, 48 or 22 percent of them, we found that 15 percent of the vehicles exceeded the speed limit by 10 miles per hour or more. 1916 Whole - Operating Budget - 3/29/05 So, we didn't -- we didn't select just the 48. It was that statistic that we found in the process of the survey of the 221 locations.
And the 220 locations, you developed those by people calling you with complaints or... COMMISSIONER TOLSON: One moment, please. Yes, those were of complaint calls.
I'm sorry? COMMISSIONER TOLSON: Yes, they were of complaint calls.
Oh, okay. Because I think that this program was probably -- is probably going to be a really good program. Many of the calls that we get in our office are more around traffic management issues versus just putting up a light or maybe just putting some speed signs up that would help slow some of the traffic down. Just like the complaints that we receive when we were in Chestnut Hill meeting 1917 Whole - Operating Budget - 3/29/05 when those residents were talking about their cars being hit and whatnot because the traffic is traveling so fast there. And people are really just interested sometimes in just slowing down the speed. Okay. What I'd also be interested in knowing about those locations so we can keep up with what's happening in our districts. And also, I'd like to receive -- And I guess -- I don't know whether anybody asked this question, but I'd also like to receive an update on the school flashers that have been installed and those scheduled for installation out of the million dollar grant from the School District. At one time, I'm sure you're aware that my Council district had the largest number of schools that have applied for flashers. And it does my heart so well when I see the list going down and down and down. COMMISSIONER TOLSON: We can supply the list to you of the 41 applications that 1918 Whole - Operating Budget - 3/29/05 we have on file.
Thank you. And also, is there a policy on what happens during trash collection if someone -- It's sort of illegal dumping, when people just kind of get out their car and put a bag of trash anywhere. It's not in front of a dwelling, but the trash just sits there month after month after month. If your truck is going down the street, if there's a trash bag, and maybe it's not in front of a house, are they supposed to pick that up? COMMISSIONER TOLSON: I'm not quite sure I understand the type of situation you're talking about.
Well... COMMISSIONER TOLSON: But we do have the ability, certainly, to service any of those... We call them complaints or service requests. We handle that in a complaint letter because they sometimes require investigation, enforcement. Certainly, whatever is set out 1919 Whole - Operating Budget - 3/29/05 in front of houses for trash day, that can be gotten. But the other materials, depending upon what it may be, it could come in certain color bags. We have to have a whole investigation. If it's a drum that requires an investigation... And then enforcement is needed as well, so that the behavior is not repeated.
Well, it may not -- The bags may not be at the front door or at a normal place that people put the trash out. It's more or less... There's a particular corner -- and I can give you the information later -- where I've seen bags of trash. They're not in front of the door. They're not at the back door. They're just somebody probably just dumped them there. And those bags have just sat there month after month after month or week after week. If you're coming down the street, you know, doing trash collection, and you see bags of trash, and they're not in a usual 1920 Whole - Operating Budget - 3/29/05 place -- Because I mean, I think there's just a pattern. On my block I know people put the bags out pretty much the same place week after week. Is there a policy that the truck picks those bags up or do you just leave them there and then call your office for, like, illegal dumping. COMMISSIONER TOLSON: All of the household has designated locations. So, if you have a front collection, it's at the front of your own house. If you have rear collection, it's in your driveway behind your house. So that somebody can't take their trash from one house around the corner and place it someplace else. If there's a particular location maybe we could look at it to determine what's going on, to find out how the trash is getting to that location, and trying to stop that behavior.
All right. Okay. We'll talk about that a little later. 1921 Whole - Operating Budget - 3/29/05 And also, what is the plan? You are definitely going to eliminate tires and white metal, according to your testimony, correct? COMMISSIONER TOLSON: Curb side, yes.
Curb side, right. COMMISSIONER TOLSON: Yes. But there is the ability to -- And this is still under evaluation, obviously.
Okay. COMMISSIONER TOLSON: But it's at curb side, and there would be an ability to be able it take it to dropoff center, a citizen convenience center. That would not stop.
And, for example, my area, is that center Domino Lane? COMMISSIONER TOLSON: Yes.
So, if you have a refrigerator or whenever you finish -- I know you said you're still evaluating, but is there a plan of what -- Is there a plan on what you would do if someone just puts their 1922 Whole - Operating Budget - 3/29/05 refrigerator out or their old stove out and it just stays there? What are we going to do with that? COMMISSIONER TOLSON: That's why we have to look at all of our options because we cannot let that type of situation occur.
Because I think about the fact that tires are now at various locations because people don't take them to those sites. And now we're going to have tires and white metal objects everywhere. COMMISSIONER TOLSON: Right. The tires that we see on the street, for the most part, are those that are illegally dumped. You'll usually see them without a rim because tire shops will remove the rim. There's some value to it. If you have one in your basement, it probably has it. You're going to probably set it out like that. The tire shops remove the rims and then they dump them in the wholesale manner illegally.
Well, I kind 1923 Whole - Operating Budget - 3/29/05 of think that if the city stops picking up white metal, it's going to present problems. They'll just be all over the place. I mean, when people put them out, they're just going stay out. That's what I think, unless we have some really strong enforcement. Other than that, I think we're just going to have the white metal sitting out. COMMISSIONER TOLSON: Yes.
All right. Thank you. MR. McPHERSON: Councilman Clarke.
Thank you. Commissioner, I just made a phone call to my ward leader that represented Fairmount. And I think I may have an understanding as to why you may have gotten someone in Fairmount who said that they wanted to eliminate a trash day. So, what he basically told me, that the overwhelming majority of Fairmount is not two times a week. So, you probably talked to somebody who already had once a week. COMMISSIONER TOLSON: All right. 1924 Whole - Operating Budget - 3/29/05
All right. It's just a sliver of Fairmount that's in the twice a week, but all of Spring Garden and all of Francisville. So, it kind of takes in a big part of the 15th Ward. But a big portion of Fairmount does not have twice a week. COMMISSIONER TOLSON: That may explain --
So that person that told you it was eliminated probably didn't... COMMISSIONER TOLSON: Yeah. They told me they lived in Fairmount --
They didn't have it anyway. COMMISSIONER TOLSON: -- so I associated it with the program.
All right. Getting back to your earlier responses, with respects to the weighing of debris... COMMISSIONER TOLSON: Yes.
...was that done 1925 Whole - Operating Budget - 3/29/05 internally? COMMISSIONER TOLSON: Yes.
Did you contract out? COMMISSIONER TOLSON: No. We did that internally.
Who did? COMMISSIONER TOLSON: I can get you the statistics. You mean like what titles did it or...
I mean, who did it? Who's responsible? COMMISSIONER TOLSON: Frank Leo's our Sanitation Program Administrator.
Frank Leo, Programs Administrator for the Sanitation Division, Streets Department.
Good afternoon. Could you tell me the process associated with the weighing of the trash, highway and 1926 Whole - Operating Budget - 3/29/05 overall city?
Well, we did a study, particularly in these -- in this area two years ago. It was in a pretty intensive review of the daily tickets of the collection routes. And we came out with information that on the Tuesday/Friday routes, the average set-out was 39.3 pounds per week, and on the Monday/Thursday routes the average was 44.1 pounds per week. And the weekly set-outs in the remaining areas of what is sanitation area three, areas that get once a week collections -- As the Commissioner said, the twice a week is a small portion of that geographic area -- the average there was 42.8 pounds per week. Now, that was two years ago. Currently the citywide average is 53.7 pounds per week.
So, the information that the Commissioner provided to me earlier was essentially an analysis only 1927 Whole - Operating Budget - 3/29/05 on the third highway.
Now you're throwing out a new number. Now you're saying 52. Before she said it was 48 to 43, I think, 44.
When we did a comparison of the weekly set-out of the twice a week households versus the weekly set-out in the same area that had only once-a-week collection.
And I was just adding the comparison of the current citywide average.
Now, when you say we did that, who did it? COMMISSIONER TOLSON: Analysts in the Streets Department reviewed daily weight tickets and productivity sheets from the collection routes.
A weight ticket is what we get from the transfer station when the truck 1928 Whole - Operating Budget - 3/29/05 is tipped.
So, you basically -- And I was going to ask you this question about the tonnage, as it relates to the vehicle. So, it sounds like to me you're saying you didn't actually measure that someone's individual trash; you measured the vehicle. COMMISSIONER TOLSON: No. No. All we can do is get the total route divided by the number of households that our information says is on that route for collections.
So, we didn't actually physically go out and weigh somebody's trash.
All right. Because I was led to believe that, based on the Commissioner's earlier testimony. Where's the commissioner? UNIDENTIFIED VOICE: She stepped out.
Is she coming back. 1929 Whole - Operating Budget - 3/29/05 (No response.)
I'm going to wait. Madam President, can I wait until she comes back?
Commissioner, did you hear that testimony? COMMISSIONER TOLSON: I'm sorry. No. I missed it. I apologize.
I'm now being told that no one from the Streets Department actually went out and physically weighed someone's trash, an individual person's trash. The weight was determined by the vehicle and at the dump site. What do they call that, weight ticket? And then it was divided by the number of households in that particular area. COMMISSIONER TOLSON: Oh, okay. 1930 Whole - Operating Budget - 3/29/05
So we never... UNIDENTIFIED VOICE: These are the numbers. COMMISSIONER TOLSON: Okay. I apologize. I misspoke. We have done studies where we have done individual weighings. We did it in terms of analysts. So, I must have confused my efforts.
You didn't actually weigh people's trash. COMMISSIONER TOLSON: Not individual households. We have done that in the past with other efforts, but in this... Mr. Leo is the program coordinator, so if he said that we did it through --
Two years ago. COMMISSIONER TOLSON: -- did it through a method of... We know the exact route. We know what exact collections occur. And then weighed the tickets from that route. That would provide us the data.
So, how do we determine the number of households in a 1931 Whole - Operating Budget - 3/29/05 particular district? Do we count? Is there a counter on the truck or does the guy, like, pick it up? Do they count how many households? COMMISSIONER TOLSON: They're, like -- We have a G.I.S. system that has a count on there, and that's updated with intervention from our crew chiefs who are on the street. So, as new houses come into play, new houses being built, they add them to our list.
So, if this analysis was done two years ago, potentially the numbers could be substantially off, particularly given what's happening in this City of Philadelphia in the last two years, as it relates to new housing starts. In some areas of the Third Highway District, Girard on the eastern side, the number of units that come on line, number of units that come on line in Spring Garden and Francisville. So these numbers could be dated. COMMISSIONER TOLSON: I would agree 1932 Whole - Operating Budget - 3/29/05 that the housing combinations could be different in the last two years.
So, the G.I.S. systems that you use are, I would say relatively up-to-date? COMMISSIONER TOLSON: Yes. We have connections with the Board of Revision of Taxes. As we mentioned, our crew chiefs. So, it should be fairly accurate.
And... COMMISSIONER TOLSON: Certainly every year, every other year basically.
And that information determines whether or not the properties are occupied? I mean, how do you determine how many households? Because let me tell you why I'm asking this question. Because in earlier testimony with another department when we were trying to determine whether or not the city could, in fact, have a clear understanding of what properties were vacant, what properties were occupied, using the same systems we were told that we couldn't get 1933 Whole - Operating Budget - 3/29/05 that information because we weren't in a position to have that information. We were basically trying to impose a tax on vacant properties, an additional, call it non-utilization. They sat here and said, well, Councilman, we're not in a position to tell you what properties are vacant, which ones are occupied. Now you're sitting here telling me that you're in a position to determine what households are occupied. I'm assuming that determines which households are probably putting out the debris. COMMISSIONER TOLSON: I would say that our data is not sufficient for tax purposes or anything like that.
I'm sorry? COMMISSIONER TOLSON: It would not be sufficient for tax purposes. But in terms of our efforts, it's worked fairly well, in terms of our activity. I also mentioned that we had 1934 Whole - Operating Budget - 3/29/05 census --
We're talking about occupancy. Occupancy. Not tax. But tax was the reason why we had that discussion. But the issue was determining occupancy, occupied properties versus vacant. COMMISSIONER TOLSON: Mm-hmm.
The Revenue Commissioner sat here and said we couldn't determine that. And she used the same B.R.T. statistics. Now, you're saying based on those same statistics and G.I.S. capabilities, you can determine what properties are occupied, therefore determine what properties are putting out refuse. COMMISSIONER TOLSON: For her purposes, she needs to make sure that she matches a name to an exact property and an exact property size. For our purposes, we would not have to have that fine level of data.
What do you need to determine that? 1935 Whole - Operating Budget - 3/29/05 COMMISSIONER TOLSON: We wouldn't necessarily have to match a name with a household count. We do some periodic auditing to look at the low occupancy. We can also measure it by the amount of trash that comes out. You can have a sense of...
Slow. Slow. Slow. When you say you match, match what? You match the name with the house? COMMISSIONER TOLSON: Mm-hmm
So, if there's a name attached to a house, you say it's occupied? I mean, explain that to me. COMMISSIONER TOLSON: Well, I'm saying in referencing the comment about the Revenue Commissioner not being able to do what she would need to do. And I was only suggesting that, for our purposes, that we wouldn't try to do that because we wouldn't need that fine level of data.
So, what criteria do you use to determine if the property is occupied or vacant? 1936 Whole - Operating Budget - 3/29/05 COMMISSIONER TOLSON: We do use the B.R.T. information for this assessment. We also use some of the census information.
Census? COMMISSIONER TOLSON: Yes. To look at household count changes. It was not the sole determining factor, but we used our G.I.S. which is based on B.R.T. for the entire city.
Excuse me, Councilman. I'm just a little curious as to how you were able to calculate what the savings would be to go to the once-a-week trash pickup, along with how you calculated what the savings would be regarding eliminating the white metals and tires. COMMISSIONER TOLSON: Surely.
I just don't know how you calculate. So, if you don't have the answer today, if you would send us something in writing, I think it would be extremely helpful. COMMISSIONER TOLSON: Okay. I can 1937 Whole - Operating Budget - 3/29/05 do that.
Because you're not, apparently, saving on tonnage. COMMISSIONER TOLSON: It's the inefficiency. The efficiency rates are different. The efficiency rates are different. The crews that work, say, throughout the city... The average tons per crew for the city is 14.64. However, in the biweekly areas, it's 11.9 because they're traveling further to get less trash. So, it's less efficient. If we improve the efficiency so that a truck can get more trash in a day, you use less crews.
I just don't -- I just don't know how you computed it; but we'll go on, Councilman.
Thank you. Okay. Now, so you'll get me -- So it's clear what information, you're going to get me the data that shows the households in that targeted area -- COMMISSIONER TOLSON: Mm-hmm. 1938 Whole - Operating Budget - 3/29/05
-- that were occupied, how you came to that can conclusion. And the information on the weight slips that are subsequently divided by the number of households that come to this particular number. COMMISSIONER TOLSON: Yes.
All right. Can you also... And let me ask you this: Do you have... since you earlier talked about patterns of refuse, as it relates to types and the amount, do you have on a month-to-month count on tonnage, generally, and in this particular highway district? So... Because I'm interested in getting a sense of the fluctuation that you're talking about that now suggests that the best time for you to do this is in the spring. COMMISSIONER TOLSON: Yes.
Although you said that the highest level of refuse is in the spring, but yet you're implementing once a week now. That seems to go against the 1939 Whole - Operating Budget - 3/29/05 grain. But do you have that information? COMMISSIONER TOLSON: Yes. I have it generally. I do not believe I have the month-to-month for twice a week separate from the rest of the district.
Why not? COMMISSIONER TOLSON: We don't segregate the data. I mean, all the data is combined. So, I don't have it segregated.
But you segregate to get to a conclusion that you need to eliminate it. COMMISSIONER TOLSON: In terms of understanding the amount of trash, the average trash. So, the number I gave was the average over the course of a year. That's not the average in April or versus the average in August. I just don't think I have it for the total of tonnage separated for twice a week.
What I'm saying -- COMMISSIONER TOLSON: I'll look and see. 1940 Whole - Operating Budget - 3/29/05
-- if you did an analysis on that area that led you to the conclusion how much was being collected, then why wouldn't you have the month-to-month? Did you just do it one month and came to that conclusion? COMMISSIONER TOLSON: I will go back and see what we do have. I'll go back and look to see what we do have. I just don't believe that I have it segregated, but I will look to see.
So you don't have it segregated in this twice-a-week for the amounts, the total amounts, but you do have it segregated to determine that there's less being picked up in those areas versus the rest of the city. COMMISSIONER TOLSON: Right. Because a major premise for this was that we were seeking standardization of services. 525,000 households have once a week collection. These 25,000 had twice a week of collection. And we looked at the overall 1941 Whole - Operating Budget - 3/29/05 materials that they had, and determined that there was not that much more trash per household.
You're actually saying it's less. COMMISSIONER TOLSON: Four pounds.
Which is, like, amazing to me. COMMISSIONER TOLSON: Four pounds on average.
But now you're telling me you don't have the information. COMMISSIONER TOLSON: You're asking me the...
Well, I mean, how do you do it? I'm saying, was it just a one-time shot? You went out. You did a count one time and determined this area versus the rest of the city. Say, okay -- COMMISSIONER TOLSON: To compare the average, yes.
So it was no 24 long-term analysis. COMMISSIONER TOLSON: Not long-term 1942 Whole - Operating Budget - 3/29/05 formal analysis. We certainly have long-term assessments by management personnel in the street, you know, who are just in the business and can identify different demands. And the requirement didn't seem to be there.
Okay. But you'll find out if you have that information. COMMISSIONER TOLSON: Yes. Yes, I will.
I'll get it through the Chair, and the Chair will subsequently forward it to me. COMMISSIONER TOLSON: Yes.
Your FY'04 and '05 budget, was there a difference in that budget, as it related to trash collection? COMMISSIONER TOLSON: A difference... I don't think so.
So, in '04 you collected... trash citywide, you collected twice a week in the twice-a-week area. In '05 you had the same budget. Now you're eliminating that. How much do you anticipate saving, based on that elimination 1943 Whole - Operating Budget - 3/29/05 in your FY'05 money? And if, in fact, that money is being saved, where is it going? COMMISSIONER TOLSON: It's part of our overall budget issues. There's a benefit of... I think it's three crews.
Benefit of what? COMMISSIONER TOLSON: Three crews. Three crews that are saved through this process. That certainly allows us -- helps us with the issue of staffing reductions.
But we're talking about the FY'06 budget now. So, you're eliminating the cost in '05, fiscal '05. COMMISSIONER TOLSON: Yes.
My question is, where is that money going? Because you've already budgeted to accommodate the entire district, the entire city, including the twice-a-week. So, now... COMMISSIONER TOLSON: In '06 we are not budgeted for it.
I'm asking you about '05. Where is the '05 money going, 1944 Whole - Operating Budget - 3/29/05 since you'll have till July 1, essentially? COMMISSIONER TOLSON: Right. So...
Cost savings. Because you've eliminated that service. So where is that money going? COMMISSIONER TOLSON: For the three months of savings, I don't know that we necessarily took credit for that and applied it to any particular program.
Where is it going? COMMISSIONER TOLSON: It's in our General Fund. The positions...
So you have a surplus. COMMISSIONER TOLSON: No, not with the snowstorms that we've had this year. We need the help.
We budgeted enough money to do the entire city, as we did in '04. So, I'm assuming you have a surplus because of the elimination of that service. COMMISSIONER TOLSON: No, we do not have a surplus. 1945 Whole - Operating Budget - 3/29/05
Where has it gone? COMMISSIONER TOLSON: It was eaten in our snow events this year. There's definitely...
That was smooth. COMMISSIONER TOLSON: We couldn't salt them away.
We didn't have any snow events last year? COMMISSIONER TOLSON: Well, certainly. But our budgets go from year to year. And this year we certainly did not have a surplus.
All right. Since you want to bring that up, what was our snow removal last year? COMMISSIONER TOLSON: Okay. I'll have to get you snow calls for last year, Councilman. I have our costs for this year. They were $3.5 million.
Was it less than that last year? 1946 Whole - Operating Budget - 3/29/05 COMMISSIONER TOLSON: I don't know. I will give you accurate information after the session. I do not have it now.
What was your question? I'm sorry. I didn't hear it.
Her response to my question about the additional money saved as a result of the mid-term elimination of service. And I simply asked her where did that money go since we budgeted enough --
-- to do that service. So, she definitely responded that we ate it up in snow removal. So I'm now trying to determine, was the cost in snow removal this year more than it was last year, therefore requiring that additional...
She said $3.5 million. COMMISSIONER TOLSON: $3.5 million.
And how 1947 Whole - Operating Budget - 3/29/05 much was budgeted? COMMISSIONER TOLSON: Under $1 million.
Under $1 million? COMMISSIONER TOLSON: Under $1 million. I can get you the exact number later.
I'm asking about last year because if you -- I'm assuming you -- COMMISSIONER TOLSON: It wasn't budgeted has year.
I'm assuming you similarly budgeted under $1 million last year. So, the question is, how much you spent last year on snow removal and where you got the money from last year to accommodate that increase versus how you did it this year. COMMISSIONER TOLSON: We'll get that data for you.
Okay. The nuts 1948 Whole - Operating Budget - 3/29/05 and bolts of what you've implemented has created a small problem, now, in the area that I happen to represent. Early on we had this discussion, and, you know, you, frankly speaking, wanted me to cooperate with you in implementing this program, and I obviously didn't feel comfortable doing that. And you embarked on a notification process in the neighborhoods, that based on my analysis, is not sufficient, given the fact that people continue to put trash out on the traditional twice-a-week schedule. First, talk to me about what you did and how you notified those residents that there was going to be a change; and second, what are you doing to respond to what we see as an ongoing problem? Because either people are ignoring your notices or they're not getting them, but there continues to be trash put out on those normal schedules, prior to your implementation of this new program. COMMISSIONER TOLSON: Yes. To 1949 Whole - Operating Budget - 3/29/05 effect this changeover in trash collections, it impacted the 25,000 households and also some other households in the surrounding community because we... Well, in an effort to make the routes more efficient, we rebalanced all the routes in the Third Sanitation District. And to educate and notify the citizens, we used some of our learnings from our experience with Center City when we changed the service from night to day. But we did mailings to all of the -- to the residents in the community. We did it in four different languages. I think four different languages and English. So, five languages. We... When the changeover started on the 14th --
You mailed it to all the residents? COMMISSIONER TOLSON: Yes.
That's based on that same G.I.S. system? COMMISSIONER TOLSON: Yes. Yes. We also, at the start of the 1950 Whole - Operating Budget - 3/29/05 program, the night before the new trash day we called every household through our Swift Read System.
Every household... COMMISSIONER TOLSON: Every household.
Based on... COMMISSIONER TOLSON: Every household that was having a change in trash day. So, if you used to be say a Tuesday/Friday person and you now had a Wednesday -- a Thursday trash day, on Wednesday night you got a call from us saying, this is a reminder that we have a new trash schedule. Your trash day is tomorrow. Please put your trash out for tomorrow morning's collection.
Now, your access to those phone numbers, that's what? Public numbers? COMMISSIONER TOLSON: Yes.
Publicized 1951 Whole - Operating Budget - 3/29/05 numbers? COMMISSIONER TOLSON: If you have an unlisted number, we will not be able to reach you. We did... After the program started, we sent our SWEEP officers into the community. And I will acknowledge that we could not do the entire area, but we got fairly large chunks done. We went to the new trash day. I'll stick with my same example. If it's now a Thursday trash day, we went to that house -- we went to the communities on Thursday, and houses that we did not see trash set out, we gave them a flyer that says, we didn't see your trash. This is a reminder that you have a new trash day. It's Thursday. Put your trash out next Thursday. Additionally, we went to their old day, Tuesday, and for anybody that we saw with trash out on Tuesday, we gave them a reminder that say, just a reminder. Your new trash day is Thursday. Please put your trash out only on Thursday. 1952 Whole - Operating Budget - 3/29/05
So... Okay. I'm a little perplexed because I happen to live in that area that was affected. And I'm seeing a number of people who put their trash out on the new incorrect day. COMMISSIONER TOLSON: Mm-hmm.
And they never indicated to me that they got any notices that said that they had -- the change was -- had been implemented. There were some notices that went to some residents -- it was probably the majority of residents -- that indicated that there would be a change. But it doesn't appear that people are getting notified that this change is now in place because they're basically asking me, what's going on with the trash day. Is trash being picked up this day? COMMISSIONER TOLSON: Mm-hmm.
So, either they're not getting their notices or they're not understanding their notices or... I mean, I'm just... I'm not getting a sense 1953 Whole - Operating Budget - 3/29/05 that people are... COMMISSIONER TOLSON: Right. Well, we've done it in writing, and we've done it verbally, and we're now having face-to-face intervention. We could probably do another round of verbal through the phone so people can hear somebody telling them our message, because with that system we are sure to be able to reach people fairly quickly with the same exact message.
How much -- I'm sorry. COMMISSIONER TOLSON: But the face-to-face intervention takes more time, and we can't span the entire area as quickly.
How many people do you have doing the face-to-face? COMMISSIONER TOLSON: I want to say we have between 15 and 18 out there.
SWEEP officers? COMMISSIONER TOLSON: Mm-hmm. 1954 Whole - Operating Budget - 3/29/05
We have that many SWEEP officers in that geographical area? COMMISSIONER TOLSON: Yes.
Or did we move them from other areas to accommodate this? COMMISSIONER TOLSON: Oh, no. We moved them into this area to work on this area.
So, we don't traditionally have -- 13 COMMISSIONER TOLSON: Oh, no. 14
-- to SWEEP 15 officers -- 16 COMMISSIONER TOLSON: No. 17