Committee Hearing, April 13, 1999

3043 COUNCIL OF THE CITY OF PHILADELPHIA CAPITAL PROGRAM & BUDGET HEARINGS BEFORE THE COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - - - Room 400, City Hall Philadelphia, Pennsylvania Tuesday, April 13, 1999 10:35 a.m. - - - Bill No. 990026 - Amending Chapter 19-1800 of The Philadelphia Code entitled "School Tax Authorization". . . Bill No. 990027 - Amending Chapter 19-1800 of The Philadelphia Code entitled "School Tax Authorization". . . Bill No. 990028 - Amending Chapter 19-1800 of The Philadelphia Code entitled "School Tax Authorization". . . PRESENT: COUNCIL PRESIDENT ANNA C. VERNA, Chair COUNCILWOMAN AUGUSTA CLARK COUNCILWOMAN JANNIE BLACKWELL COUNCILMAN DAVID COHEN COUNCILMAN RICHARD MARIANO COUNCILMAN JAMES F. KENNEY COUNCILWOMAN DONNA REED-MILLER COUNCILMAN MICHAEL A. NUTTER COUNCILMAN ANGEL ORTIZ COUNCILMAN FRANK DICICCO COUNCILMAN FRANK RIZZO CHARLES MCPHERSON, Chief Financial Officer - - - VINCENT VARALLO ASSOCIATES, INC. Registered Professional Reporters Eleven Penn Center, Suite 600 Philadelphia, PA 19103 (215) 561-2220 3044 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 I N D E X David Hornbeck, Superintendent. . . . . . . 3045 School District of Philadelphia Francis Garner, Bus Driver. . . . . . . . . 3122 School District of Philadelphia John Lombardi, Director of Transportation 3140 School District of Philadelphia Oscar Rosario, Bus Driver . . . . . . . . . 3142 School District of Philadelphia Peggy Mims, Private Citizen . . . . . . . . 3151 Thomas Doyle, President, Local 1201 . . . . 3157 3045 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 P R O C E E D I N G S

Good morning. This is the continued public hearing of the Committee of the Whole regarding Bill No.'s 990026, 990027, and 990028. Good morning.

Good morning, Madam President.

Mr. Hornbeck, what procedures have you put into place regarding the textbook shortage? Can you just elaborate on that since you heard what we heard from many of our constituents? Secondly, what procedure will you be putting into place to regard this complaint?

Well, we'll be doing two different basic things. One has to do with the way in which the system works with books, and that will be a much tighter set of system-wide policies. As I testified when I was here before, basically, it's been a school-by-school set of policies. And while that has resulted in our reducing the number of -- percentage of schools without books from 60-some-odd percent to 3046 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 percent, it still is 18 percent not there, and I think we need system-wide policies of that kind. The other factor are the kids themselves, and we will be establishing a new set of accountability procedures with respect to kids, which will involve things like payment for the books, the withholding of grades if they're not paid, the possibility of not participating in extracurricular activities. As I said in my testimony the last time, a task force has been convened in the office of the chief of staff. We expect recommendations by the end of April or the first week in May, and in May, we'll take those recommendations to the Board of Education for adoption so that they are in place and operative, and everybody's informed of them as we go into the summer.

Very well. I would like to say that we want to be informed that you're monitoring the process as well as the status of the books in the schools, and you will keep us informed on that?

Absolutely.

We have 3047 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 established a Teacher Recruitment Committee and also a Transportation Committee. I have assigned Councilmembers to the committees.

Right.

And I am asking that you please work very closely with both committees, particularly the Transportation Committee regarding the bus aides and attendants and also the token issues. I can't believe -- you know, I have receiving letters. I'm not going to read this letter, but this is just a sampling that I will share with you of the type of letters that we are getting, and I will not read it for the record. (Above-cited letter given to Dr. Hornbeck.)

At this point in time, the Chair recognizes Councilman Nutter.

Excuse me, Madam President, if I may, just for clarification. When we were at Council last and then in a telephone conversation that we had, it had been my understanding that you expected us to convene these two committees, and you gave me four 3048 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 Councilmembers each, and I've asked our Director of H.R. and the Greater Philadelphia First to convene the Recruitment Committee, and the Greater Philadelphia --

Actually, that meeting has been scheduled.

I'm just trying to make sure we've only got one committee going.

No, we have two separate committees.

I mean, one committee on each subject.

Yes. We have the Teacher Recruitment Committee.

Right.

And then we have the Transportation Committee.

And is your expectation that we will convene those?

Yes.

Okay, I just wanted to make sure.

Yes, by all means. 3049 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28

I just wanted to make sure I understood. Thank you, ma'am.

Mm-hmm. Councilman Nutter.

Thank you, Madam Chair. This is probably in the same area, and I'm tangentially aware of the committees to which the Chair makes reference. But specifically, Dr. Hornbeck, I did want to get a sense of where we are with this, I think, legitimate looming crisis on the recruitment of teachers. You articulated, I think, during the regular the -- at start maybe of the budget hearing process, in one of the various documents, there was essentially three ideas for trying to deal with our recruitment problem. Off the top of my head, I believe one was residency, one was pay, and the other may have been the ability to decide where that person is going to go, and there were some contractual issues that revolve around that particular issue. I think you probably have a sense that on the one hand, many, if not most and possibly all, members are concerned about this particular 3050 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 issue, although there's varying levels of support or lack thereof on doing anything for the moment on the residency issue. I think there is, though, a tremendous amount of concern and interest in trying to address the other two issues first; and if those attempts fail, then people may be interested in revisiting the residency issue. Can you tell me, though, for the moment what the plan is for the moment what the plan is going forward knowing what your landscape is like? What are we going to do about the recruitment problem, current vacancies, and then what you anticipate at least by way of your testimony an even larger problem going into September? Let me lastly say that between the last time you were here and today, there was at least one story, I believe, in The Inquirer which seemed to indicate that this is not, in fact, just a Philadelphia problem, and that it is going on you all across the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, and certainly the counties and school districts around us are facing the exact same problem. But what are we going to do? 3051 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28

With respect to the three issues that you raised, let me start there. Those are not ideas for addressing it; those really were the three top reasons that people gave for declining employment with us.

Right.

They do give rise to ideas about how to address it.

Right.

In the case of -- setting residency aside for the moment, with respect to the other two, they basically cannot be addressed in a -- on an across-the-board way until August of 2000 because both of them have major implications for the contract. We can't change compensation, for example, without agreement with the Federation; although I suspect if we offered more money today, they might agree to an amendment of the contract, but I don't have more money. With respect to the placements --

Let's stay on that topic for a second.

Right.

Has there been any 3052 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 discussion with the PFT, for example? And I understand you try to not spend money that you don't have, although sometimes you might find yourself in that situation anyway. But on the teacher recruitment issue, has there been any discussion -- formal, informal -- about what it would take to provide a financial incentive to increase -- I guess this is a starting-pay issue comparing us to other places -- and broach that subject? And then has anyone said anything to us about what it would take to get that piece done?

We have had conversations in different ways with the Philadelphia Federation of Teachers about the future of new teachers on -- at a variety of entrance points. We have not had that conversation in the context of simply trying to provide an extra $3500 for starting salaries, which would be the amount of money that would make us on par with the surrounding areas.

Right.

And we really haven't done that for two reasons. One is we don't have the money to do it; we're already operating in a 3053 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 deficit way. We have had some conversation about bonuses, which is a kind of different way of approaching it. And I am not anxious to go very far down the compensation route in a single-bullet kind of way as opposed to addressing the compensation issues across the board. That doesn't leave us without ways of approaching the issues, however. And on lots of other fronts, we have continued to take aggressive action, ranging from somewhat more opening, it appears, I hope, to maybe keeping that retirement window open, and in Harrisburg, which probably can save us 300 vacancies all by itself. And except for the higher level of expenditure for an experienced teacher, not cost any money to the more aggressive issues taken as well. But the Recruitment Committee, as the President has suggested, I think actually has a meeting scheduled now, and we envision not only the four Councilpeople and our H.R. people, but two or three senior H.R. people from corporations to be a part of that. And I hope that out of that, as we talked last time, there will emerge a consensus of initiatives that will cross a number 3054 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 of these lines and come with a fully balanced program. And I don't see that needing to take a real long time to come up with those things.

Well, I understand that. Lastly on this, the compensation/bonus issue, which you characterize as either a contract issue or a single-bullet approach. Aren't you, though, at the end of the day, given the immediacy of the problem, forced almost to deal with it more as a single bullet, because the problem is now, as opposed to the more comprehensive way in a full compensation package, which you can only address almost a year and a half from now?

It is an issue that is alive and on the table.

Okay.

Even as we speak.

Okay. The second part of this -- or I guess the last issue that came up from your surveys back had to do with placement, I believe. And I think I cut you off as you were getting ready to go into that area.

That is largely a 3055 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 seniority issue. And I see no opportunity to deal with it outside of the boundaries of the contract prior to August of 2000. The history of that issue tells me that.

I understand. Lastly, just to go back for one second, you said you didn't particularly feel that you were in a position to talk about bonus or compensation issues because of lack of dollars. If there were dollars available for such a program, would you pursue it?

Yes.

Okay, thank you. Don't elaborate on that answer.

Well, it --

No, I said don't elaborate on the last one -- "yes" is fine.

Okay.

Just leave it at "yes." The more you explain, the more trouble we have. Thank you. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you.

The Chair 3056 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 recognizes Councilwoman Blackwell.

Thank you, Madam President. Certainly, I am glad to hear about information on the committees. I'm particularly interested in serving on the Transportation Committee, as we've spent a lot of time and energy over the last -- oh, I don't know -- year and a half on this issue and have done some work with regard to research across the country on this issue. So I would really, really like to work on this Transportation Committee. And I would also note that I am glad that the in paper today, the issue of transportation is front and center: "Help, Drivers Cry" on of the Philadelphia Daily News. So that is also good news so that we do have it as a major issue today. In that regard, let me ask one question, and then I'll ask one question on another subject until the committee meets. These bus referral forms, it seems to me, Superintendent, that's one of the major issues with regard to this, these bus referral forms and 3057 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 what happens. I know your response has been if it's only schools, there must be problems there 4 with those drivers, but it seems to me that 5 there's something else -- that there's something 6 else happening here. And so I wanted to ask about 7 the forms. 8 And also, we have information about 9 students that are written up many, many times. 10 What happens in this regard with the students who continue to be disruptive on buses? Those two questions only.

Well, let me say first of all that I've never suggested that in the problem areas that it's only the drivers that may have a problem. Indeed, I think that there have been instances -- in fact, I know there have been instances -- in which the school's response --

"Schools" is what you said.

-- is inadequate. Sometimes it's the driver, sometimes it's the principal, sometimes it's the assistant principal. You know, it's a variety of ways. And what we do is to try to respond to wherever the 3058 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 problem seems to be. With respect to youngsters that are sort of repeaters in a sense, they are dealt with in the same disciplinary process that we would deal with disruptive behavior in any school setting. In some instances, it simply in effect means being called to the office, and some of us had the experience of that being quite enough to deal with our behavior, or a telephone call to a parent. But it can include being suspended from your right to ride the bus and does include that. And in certain instances, what happens is that it's not just, "Well, your suspended from riding the bus" necessarily, but it also may involve then putting a youngster, as we tend to say, on a token. And so you don't get to ride the yellow bus but we're also not keeping you from attending school, and we give you access then by -- if you can't afford it -- by virtue of a token. So it's a whole series of things that we try to have be appropriate to whatever the behavior was. It can include, in fact, referral to the police department and arrests, you know, if 3059 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 the kids are older and if it is some sort of an incident that is serious -- not unlike the range of disciplinary actions that are taken in the schoolhouse itself for various kinds of behaviors.

Have you seen this form, "vicious violence inside school route 36"? There are three students named, and the form says that some students received three-day suspension, but they continued to misbehavior behave, and they're afraid that somebody will get hurt, and this also refers to a videotape that was taken showing some of these students on 3/17/99, a videotape.

No, it's not familiar to me. I'll be glad -- as in any instance, I'll be glad to specifically look into that. But, no, I have not seen that.

All right. So we would certainly appreciate it if you would get back to the Chair, and then maybe this committee can look at that. And one other question on a separate issue now.

Could we have a copy or 3060 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 that?

Yes.

Okay, great.

Absolutely.

Thank you.

Another issue, the form we saw, the blue form about what we do in health emergencies.

Right.

Can we now say -- I've been saying it anyway as I go across the City that this is something that happened that we're very glad happened. Was that form approved, and will it be in schools by September?

It will be in all schools by September.

Okay, all right. Thank you, Madam President.

You're welcome. The Chair recognizes Councilman Mariano.

Thank you, Madam 3061 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 President. Mr. Hornbeck, I have a son that's an 8th-grader that goes to AMY-5. Just through personal experience, things that happened to us this year but the books. Over the Easter holidays, Vince didn't bring home his report card, so I figured, He's got a bad report card and he's hiding it from me. So come Tuesday, when they go back to school, I call the school, and the lady at the front desk was forthright with all the information, and I said, But Vince didn't get his report card. Why didn't he? Why didn't he get it? And she said, That's pretty easy. There's one of two reasons -- either he didn't give it to you or we're holding it because he didn't return a book. And sure enough, Vincent didn't return a book, Martin Goes to Selma Alabama. Now, he didn't realize that till he got there Monday. Monday afternoon, he found it, then he had his report card. And, you know, I thought he was hiding it 'cause it may not have been that good, but it was good, actually, and the lady was very 3062 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 forthright at the desk. So there's something that works in the school. I don't know what the overall plan is, but that was enough to get my attention.

Right.

And I'm busy with some other things.

That's good news.

Point 2 is the bus. Vince has been taking the bus all of 7th grade, all of 8th grade. When the attendants were on the bus, believe it or not, there was -- he was a lot more serious in behavior on his and in what happened on the bus. Now, he's an average 14-year-old, he's an 8th grader. Since the attendants have been off the bus, and he has Atlantic, so I don't think -- Atlantic is subbed out, and I don't think -- that's not members of your local?

Right.

And they start up in the Northeast, way up at Fox Chase School. Now, we've had several meetings with the parents. I actually got some letters from two constituents 3063 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 that Mr. Farlino (ph.) handled pretty well, where parents aren't putting their children on the bus. It seems now that the kids know what buses had the cameras and what don't. Now, they know that if they misbehave on bus 6745 -- I'm just making up this number -- there's a black box there. Well, nothing ever happens to them so, therefore, in their mind, there's not a camera, okay? So if the bus driver doesn't report them and if he does and there's nothing to substantiate that request, now if they misbehave on another number bus and they bring them in and they say, Well, the kids are smart enough to deduct that there's a camera on that bus, they know what buses the camera's on. It took about a month to two months to figure out what buses the camera's on. Vince doesn't take the bus anymore; he gets tokens. One of his friends goes to Roman, he gives him $9, he gets the school bus tokens 'cause they're not available, to my knowledge, at the 8th-grade level, and he does it himself -- much to my wife's chagrin, she's nervous. I figure he's 3064 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 got to learn it anyhow, so he might as well do it. And it's better for him 'cause he's home on time and he gets there faster and he can sleep late. But they are a lot of people that can't do that. From just personal experience, if we can look at having the attendants back on these buses. These kids are smart. Are they the most well-behaved kids in the world? No, they're kids. Are there some bad kids? Probably. I hate to say that any kids are bad, but I hate to say they're all good, including my son. I mean, things happen when their peers are there and they're misbehaving and they're trying to impress girls and whatever happens among 7th- and 8th-graders. It's just that that -- I could see the difference. And I've met with the Atlantic people, I met with the people from the School Board, and they have one favorite bus driver who happened to be an ex-policeman, and he even got in a problem one time because he had to make a stop and kids were throwing rocks at the bus and he had to do something. Now, he's actually a police -- in fact, he might still be a policeman, I said "ex," but he may still be a policeman, so they so 3065 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 can't get him all the time. I'm not sure what the answer is. Obviously the kids are smart enough to know the difference, and if we could have attendants of every bus, if there's any way or any funding that we can help with, I think it would be a good thing, just to have another adult on that bus.

Well, one of the things that I suspect -- and will bring it up if nobody else does as a first step and you point this up -- is whether or not -- and I think maybe Councilman DiCicco raised it the last time too -- is whether we ought to really go ahead and consider spending the $450,000 that it would take to basically put actual cameras with film on every bus, or at least a heck of a lot larger ratio than it's --

My problem with that is, eventually they're going to be smart enough to figure out that there's something you can buy at Radio Shack that neutralizes a videotape. I'm sure Councilman Rizzo has one 'cause he's Inspector Gadget here. But there's actually something with magnetic waves that you can put up that erases the tape. It's only a 3066 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 matter of time before somebody sees that. I mean, there's nothing like a human being. If we could put $450,000 into cameras, what's the difference? I don't know the difference in the price but I'm sure to have somebody working and to give their money back into the tax base, 'cause that's what trying to do here.

Well, the difference with the cameras, like over four years, would be $15.5 million between four years' worth of savings on attendants and a one-time expenditure.

But when you figure that out, are you figuring into that what we would get in City wage taxes back to that attendant? Does that enter into your formula?

I'm looking at it in this context, strictly in the context -- I guess it would be 5 percent less than that, so it would be something closer to $14,250,000.

But mathematics aside, I would say there's a human factor that has to go that beside that cold 450 million minus the 5 percent. There's the money that that lady 3067 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 spends in the grocery store that may be an attendant. There's the money that that guy in the grocery store makes because he's selling more things. That might be another family that doesn't move to New Jersey because everything's rosy in New Jersey, we see the New Jersey education commercials on TV every night.

There's nothing but commercials on.

Yeah, well, I'm sure everything's not rosy over there; they just don't put their bad things on television.

Right.

But if you would please figure the human factor into it. If it is $10 million, we could get it down, whatever it is, you know?

This certainly will -- I can't imagine it not being one of the issues that will be considered by the Transportation Committee. It is a -- that's a huge number, though, of computers and reading specialists and you, know all, kinds of things.

Right. Thank you. 3068 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28

The Chair recognizes Councilwoman Clark.

I want to speak about the textbook issue.

Textbook.

What accountability measures have been put in place? So that principal's report, how they spend textbook money. Did you understand that?

Yes. The accountability measures are through the budget itself in the line item related to books and other instructional materials, I think, is what it's called. And so, we track those expenditures in the same manner that we track others, but that's the line item in which that sets. What has not been done yet, which is the piece that -- this report to the board and that I will report to Council on in a couple of months is what, in effect, non-budget policies we will use to track the textbook distribution and collection and monitoring. But it will be a system-wide way rather than an individual-school way. 3069 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28

But Mr. Superintendent, our problem is with individual schools. Will each school have an inventory -- have a list of books that they purchased this year so that they'll have purchased books, they'll have distributed books, they'll have unexpended dollars. Then if you read across the line, you will see what each school did.

Yes.

Do we have a system like that so that on your desk, you can tell which principals bought one book for each child in each major subject?

On the budget front, in terms of the whole school, we know how much they've spent, and we have a mechanism for tracking what they spent it on. We do not presently have in place -- which is this other thing that we will have in place by the summer -- a process by which we can know in a routine fashion, on a system-wide basis about, you know, Mrs. Jones' English class in Room 24 102. Historically, that's what's been left to the school. 3070 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28

But that's what has gotten us criticized.

That's why I'm saying we're changing it.

Okay.

I think that instead of having what we've done historically, we need a system-wide way of ensuring that each school processes its books. And in my mind, there are three parts to that: one is how do kids get the books; the second is how do kids treat the books during the year; and the third is how the school gets the books back at the end of the year. And there needs to be system-wide uniform processes for that to happen so that next year, I would be the position of saying, you know, this is the way it happens.

I think that if we did the report, it would then permit us to see which schools had not followed the practice, we could see where we needed to help.

Correct.

And to go in and to intervene. I can remember Jeanette Brewer 3071 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 saying to me year after year, We will solve the school problem, and it just won't get solved and stay solved. It seems to me that a school-by school, classroom-by classroom accounting of which materials were acquired, which materials were distributed, and which materials were returned would give you a situation that would be fairly clear on our instructional material distribution system. Now, if that system has holes in it, you'll be able to see it and fix it without having to tear the whole thing down.

Right.

I'm anxious to see this implementation. Will the report come to your desk, will the system-wide report ultimately get to you?

When will it get to me?

I'm asking if it will get to you.

Oh, yeah, absolutely. As I said before, I'm really pleased that with your leadership and ours and with Dr. Brewer's in 3072 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 the beginning, that we've taken giant steps forward. And I urge us all not to forget that because there are lots more kids with books today than three years ago, but we've still got or 6 percent where we've not covered that yet. 7 And on top of that, as you suggest, we 8 don't know today classroom-by-classroom, and we 9 need to know that in order to go that last 18 to 10 20 percent. And that will be one that I will be 11 routinely informed about because I want to keep 12 improving this thing. I mean, I will give you a 13 report on Council on that. 14

But you need to 15 get it early in the school year. 16

Absolutely. 17

Like October, so 18 that we will then be able to fix it. You see, the 19 school year is essentially over. 20

I agree with you, Councilwoman Clark. And I think of this a little bit like I thought of that leveling process a few years ago. As you know, when I came here, kids didn't know who their teachers were, and teachers didn't know who their kids were until November. 3073 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 And we've basically solved that problem, and kids now, the leveling takes place in September. Similarly, it's just crazy for -- even if it's only percent of the kids not to have 6 their books at the start of the school for 18 7 percent. So we need to find a satisfactory, final 8 -- I mean, we'll always have a handful of places 9 where a kid on a given day doesn't have a book, 10 but it ought to be down on, you know, the or 11 or or percent level, not, you know, at 18 12 percent. 13

And that would be 14 the kids' fault not the system's fault. 15

Well, that's true. And 16 quite frankly, in a lots of instances, it is. But 17 need to figure out ways to help the kid meet his 18 only responsibility in this thing too, which is one of the reasons we will be doing the things like Councilman Mariano said, making uniform things like you don't get your report card if don't get book back, and then we escalate it from there. I agree with you.

But if you didn't 3074 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 have a book and there's no book to bring back, this kid's not going to do well if he didn't have a book. So let's commit to him and to the public that every child who attends will have a book in every major subject not later than September.

I agree with you.

And then we will see which schools have failed, we will see which classrooms and which schools have failed, and that will be the place where we will put our emphasis to correct the problem.

We shall do that; we are doing that.

I'm all out of voice. Thank you.

Thank you. I hope that gets better; that sounds awful.

And I would certainly hope the report which would be forthcoming would be much better than the one that we received in the last month when we were told that there were sufficient books in certain schools, and then we were told by parents that that was very, very inaccurate. 3075 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 The Chair recognizes Councilman Kenney.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Considering the famous debates that Councilmember Clark and myself have had over the last seven years, I will resist on the opportunity to pick on her today. (Laughter.)

'Cause I know she's defenseless today. I'm fighting it a little bit myself so I can understand. A lot of the issues, Dr. Hornbeck, that we discuss in this room relating to the School District seem to revolve around basic issues, basic issues of books. And now we have the basic issue of safety on a bus. When I read the story that I read in the paper today by Kevin Haney about -- not the main story, about which I have very much concern, but the story down at the bottom that gives examples of what exactly is happening on our buses. One young man actually grabbed the steering wheel of the bus, jumped out the 3076 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 emergency door, exposed his backside, urinated on the bus, and shouted obscenities. He's been written up time and time again, according to the bus driver, and the most severe punishment that that young man received was a week off the bus. It would seem to me that that young man needed to have some police contact -- not necessarily to have him arrested or to have him locked up, but to get him into a loop or a system where a judge or a social worker or a psychiatrist apparently would be able to make a determination of what that young person needs before he's riding on a bus to Curran Fromhold, because it seems as if that's where he may be going at or or 16 years of age. 17 And I'll go a little further in the 18 story, where a young woman who rides the bus every 19 day from Juniata Park to Rush Middle School, and 20 it makes me sad that she's quoted as saying, 21 "They'll be fighting on the bus, jumping over 22 seats, and I get a headache every day." Her attitude about going to school and doing well once she gets there must be severely impacted, severely impacted by what she goes through every day on 3077 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 that bus, and that young woman should never have to go through that, and I know you agree with me on that. A Meehan student hung out the bus window so far that his hands almost touched the tires. Now, we may save $3 million on these bus attendants, but what do you think we would be paying if that young man's hands got caught in the wheel of that bus and was killed? We would be paying millions of dollars in a wrongful death suit because of the lack of security and safety on these. And the bus drivers says that basically, no one wants to run the Meehan route; the Meehan route is pretty -- apparently, a pretty infamous route. The last thing that's mentioned in the story is that a driver of one of the Northeast routes had to be transferred after an unruly student's parent sent a threatening letter that said, in the letter, "Don't make me F you up," the letter warned. Was that person referred, or was that incident referred to the Police Department for the threat, the terroristic threats that were made by that parent, for that parent to be 3078 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 arrested by the Police Department? Because, from my perspective, if you put that kind of threat in writing, I think you deserve to be arrested. The question is, how many problem routes do we have? Now, I doubt every route is problem so how many problem routes do we have? How many routes do we have in total?

John, how many routes are there? There are 155 de-seg. routes.

Do we have an idea as to how many routes out of that 155 are problem routes?

In '97 and '98, out of the routes, there were 14 that were -- that accounted for 77 percent of the behavioral referrals. So, in effect, 14 during '97-'98, and 12 during '98-'99.

Why are there not bus attendants on at least those 14 routes?

Primarily because, at this point, we don't see a connection between the presence or absence of bus attendants and those incidents. 3079 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 We had -- if we go back further, we also had routes that accounted for 70, 75, 80 percent. So it does not appear that the variable in these matters is the bus attendant. The variable -- it goes back to the question, I think, that Councilwoman Blackwell asked. Sometimes it's the treatment of the kids. It may well be, I don't know the real facts, I only know the Daily News facts around those particular incidents. But it may well be that an assistant principal, for discipline, didn't respond correctly, or they let people go too long, but it's not -- there's no cause-effect relationship that we determined between those things.

Let me disagree. If we stipulate for the sake of argument that at least one or two of these issues in the story are, in fact, accurate, would not a bus attendant have been useful in keeping a young person from grabbing a steering wheel or from hanging out a window or from jumping out the emergency door? Maybe not from urinating in the aisle, because I don't know to what extent the attendant is expected to do certain duties. 3080 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 But would there not have been a safer condition for that poor bus driver trying to negotiate and navigate streets with 20, 30 children in his care or her care, without having another adult there to physically be able to restrain people who are acting out in this aberrant manner?

Well, I think it's got to be the case that if there were another adult in some of those instances, that the events might well have ceased earlier than it did. Drivers are, for example, when incidents take place like some of those, they're instructed to stop the bus, and they deal with 'em, and so the kid gets back in from the window or the kid -- whatever. One of the other things that I looked at, because the issue of safety was raised with respect to the buses themselves, was what's been the safety record over the last several years? And the fact is that in '95-'96, the last year that we had attendants on all of those routes, we had 156 accidents; the next year, when we had partial removal of attendants, we had 122; the next year, we had 117; and this year, we've had 3081 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 only 38.

So I guess the bus attendants were causing the accidents.

Well, no -- what I'm -- I wouldn't draw that conclusion. It doesn't seem quite right to me that --

Well, it sounds like you're moving toward that conclusion.

No, what I'm moving toward is the fact that all of the connections that some people are making between bus attendants and great tragedies and accidents and incidents is a connection that simply doesn't hold up.

Well, I would argue -- again, stipulating to the accuracy of this story, and I see no reason why this young lady from Juniata Park would lie about what her experiences are every more than. For me, it is a basic requirement of any business -- whether it's SEPTA, whether it's the school system, whether it's any business -- to make their customers and clientele safe. And not only safe bus accidents, but safe from degradation and safe from sexual exposure and safe from foul, 3082 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 obscene language, and safe from all those issues.

Right.

Because, you know, it's not just the bus crashing into a car that's the danger; it's what these children are exposed to and experiencing every single day; and more importantly, what their parents have to make a decision to do about that, and that is perhaps leave the system or leave this city. And I go back to SEPTA's issue. A number of years ago, SEPTA had a horrendous reputation for unsafe subways, unsafe buses -- and it's not perfect yet, but they made a concerted effort to change that image. And from what I understand from your testimony, you're not necessarily aware of a lot of what's going on on these buses because as a result of a question where Councilwoman Blackwell talked about a tape that was available, I mean, should not this not be a primary issue on the agenda of the Superintendent of the School Board as to what's going on on these buses every day?

Absolutely, but not an individual case that somebody brings up on a piece 3083 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 of paper at a time when I have no foreknowledge of that particular one.

And I respect that. I just go back, I guess -- and this is a comment. The things that we raise in here, the things that we argue about, that we discuss, in my mind, are some of the absolute basic issues relative to running a school system or relative to running any business.

Right.

And if we can't deal with them, then I don't know -- you know, at the top end, we're spending money on training teachers to give the SAT-9 test, or we're hiring post-secondary readiness coordinators. We're doing lots of things on the Cadillac end. But on the basic end, down at the bottom, we seem to be ignoring some of the basic issues.

Well, I respectfully course, of course, disagree with you about that, and I tend to think something that is basic that we have not spent much time talking about in the School District is the 103,000 kids in the 145 schools read better and do math better and do 3084 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 science better. And I tend to think that the primary obligation of a school district is to have kids read and do math better and do science better, and you can't get more basic than that, in my judgment. And we've done a heck of a good job. I would put us up against any school district in American on that front, and I wish we would spend more time talking about reading, writing, and arithmetic and the record of teachers and kids and parents principals on that front. The one thing that will keep people in this city, which is something -- an objective that both you and I share, is a perception and the reality that the schools are doing better with their kids. And the proof is in the pudding in the final example. Now, we can dance around the edges of things, but in the final analysis, basic is reading, and that is where my focus is. But I do think that it's important, as we are able to, to track both the incidents and the accidents, and I was happy to see the accidents going down at a time when we have diverted $4 million a year into things that I 3085 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 think have not affected the basic safety of children but has enhanced the opportunity of schools to teach kids to read, by shifting money from what in effect is administration to instruction.

Well, we could -- and I'm not going to do this today because I promised that we were going to vote these bills out of committee and I was not going to get into this continuing argument, but we will disagree on the way in which we judge the improvement of our school system, because I think it's generally based on a standardized test that, it could be argued either way, really doesn't judge much. I like to make judgments on kids going to college, kids getting work, how long people stay in the system, and how they perform. I think the emphasis on this particular SAT-9 test, I think, is misguided, and I do believe that we are spending an awful lot of money and an awful lot of effort to convince both teachers and the public at large that this is somehow the be-all and end-all of judgments when it comes to the performance of our schools. And I will respectfully disagree 3086 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 with you that I don't think that that's necessarily the way to go. But, again, the frustration that I have is that other than voting these particular three bills up or down -- which I'll never vote them down, that would be irresponsible, so the only option we have is to have these kinds of discussions from time to time. And whether they're any good or not remains to be seen.

I really wish that somehow -- and I don't know how to do it that -- I don't think we look just at the SAT-9. For example, in the first accountability cycle, we increased the percentage of high school kids graduating on time by 4 percent. That's a 10 percent increase. That means that they're ready to go to work and go to college. We went and looked at the State test, same trend lines. We went and appointed a national panel of experts. All the people that have these questions, we keep doing everything they say to go do, and each one of them comes out saying not only is it appropriate but it's in a national leadership role. And I don't know what 3087 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 to do other than to respond to everybody's concerns in that way.

I understand. Thank you, Madam Chair.

The Chair recognizes Councilman Rizzo.

Superintendent, you mentioned about basics -- reading, writing, and arithmetic. When I first got here to City Council over three years ago the first time in this room 12 with the School District, we were discussing books; the second year, we were discussing books; and again, this year, we're discussing books. With all due respect, if we can't fix that problem and we're still discussing it -- you just referred to your concern of reading, writing and arithmetic. We really -- it's tough to even discuss some of these other subjects and have these discussions. Hopefully, this will be the last time for a long time that we will ever have to discuss the subjects of the very most basic requirements in a school system. My question: Part of the problem that I see is the way things are packaged and 3088 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 presented. Could you please describe to me how the School District of Philadelphia communicated to the parents, the teachers, the drivers of our school buses, when you pulled the attendants from the buses.

This was three years ago, and I -- we can go back and look at what was done. I done -- can't tell you -- no, I can't tell you the answer. It would be in a memo of three years ago.

We're talking about today.

We didn't inform them today; we informed them -- started taking attendants off three years ago.

And there was no 18 communication to --

That's not what I said.

Well, I think that's something you should know. If you're going to take bus attendants from school buses, something that important, and you're not familiar with how that process occurred? I mean, I think I'd remember. 3089 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28

We made a decision three years ago because the evidence was that it did not -- and the evidence since then has demonstrated that it doesn't -- affect the accident rate and it doesn't affect materially the incident rate, and it permits us to put millions more into books and computers and reading teachers and those things. We made the decision, an administrative decision we make all the time. Now, what precisely we said in a memorandum to parents, I just don't know.

Was that approved by the Board, that decision?

Of course. You wouldn't make a decision to --

That's what I'm asking you.

Yeah, sure.

Well, you said you didn't recollect how --

No, no, you asked --

I asked how the process -- how the decision was made.

Oh, I thought you asked 3090 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 how it was communicated to parents.

I did; I asked both -- how it was made and how it was communicated.

I don't remember precisely how it was communicated to parents, but the decision to take the attendants off was a decision that the Board participated in. Let me go back again where to it came from. There has legitimately been a concern in this Council and otherwise about how much money we spend in the classroom and on instruction and how much we spend on other things. And so one of the first things that I did when I came was to ask the Greater Philadelphia First Committee to identify areas of savings that we could take in non-instructional areas so that we could shift that money over. And one of those recommendations had to do with attendants. And so we were, you know, in a sense, skeptical -- for all the reasons that these questions get raised, and that's why we went to do what's frequently done in industry and, in effect, benchmark our practice against other big cities, against what other people do, what's the impact of 3091 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 it. And what we discovered, much to our surprise, was that we were the only school system that was using attendants on non-special education routes. And so we started down that path, with the result that we have, but the Board was a part of taking those several decisions related to all of the cost savings, including attendants.

You just referenced the Philadelphia First study of the non- instructional areas.

Right.

Why wasn't it ever done in the instructional area?

Well, banks are great at non-instructional things; they're not real good at reading, and so the first focus was on giving us advice on how to improve our corporate practices.

So you wouldn't -- you don't have any confidence in Philadelphia First's ability to review the educational arm of the --

On how to teach reading? No. 25

I yield to 3092 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 Councilman Kenney.

Councilman Kenney.

I think it's absolutely absurd to expect that Dick Smoot (ph.) is going to go into that school and do an audit about instructional issues, but they do have the ability to hire a firm of consultants, of experts to do the instructional audit. That's, I guess -- I'm hoping that that's the question.

That's the question.

If we have so much faith in the Greater Philadelphia First to do a good job in exposing waste in the non- instructional area, why don't we have the same amount of faith in them to hire some national experts, some academic think tank to come in and look at the instructional areas at the same time? Why did we avoid that particular area?

Well, primarily because, as I just said -- I don't know how to say it more clearly -- I don't have confidence particularly in Greater Philadelphia First to even know who to hire in the process. And I'm struck that -- this 3093 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 is an issue that, in fact, we've been discussing.

We've discussed it before.

One of the reasons we focussed there is because that was the area of scrutiny and interest, those were the questions, and they were the areas of question until it was revealed that that's not the way that we solve the financial problem. Now people want to go find some other area in that --

Well, if everything's being conducted appropriately and you're doing your best and you're confident that anybody who would look you -- just said in the last round of question that anybody who wanted to look at this would say that things are going well. Why not allow -- I mean, I'm sure there's got to be some Harvard-based, some organization somewhere that we could at least agree on that you have confidence in, that would look at this whole entire instructional issue and could maybe come up with some savings there.

Well, I don't object to that, Councilman. It sounds a little bit like the 3094 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 national panel that I think you and others were enthusiastic about on the testing front. They've now said that our testing process is not only satisfactory but terrific, but you still have questions about it. I don't mind Greater Philadelphia First coming in and doing this.

I'll go back to relinquish --

Superintendent, I would hope that the Greater Philadelphia First organization would take a look at that process, would be the school administration, to be able to -- first of all, it amazes me -- I appreciate Philadelphia First looking at the non-educational, but you have a lot of professional people there. And I know that it's always good to have someone in with a fresh point of view, but you would hope that if there's problems within the educational process that you've identify those. And I know that they're difficult to solve. But I'd like to get back to my question about the school bus attendants. Three years ago, the decision was made. At the time, did you communicate to anyone that you were achieving zero 3095 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 attendants on these buses? In other words, three years ago, was there ever a communication that your goal was to have no attendants at all?

(Confers with staff.) The communication from Central Office went to the principals on that, telling them each successive year what was going to happen in the year subsequent. And that was the communication.

Clearly, it said to zero?

Not in the first year.

No, eventually.

Yeah.

Was there a three-year plan?

There was a three-year plan that was adopted in the initial instance that if it worked out in the first year and in the second year, that we would keep going down that line, and that's where we've gotten to as we looked to September.

And the only people that were in the loop on that discussions were the principals, and that really never got out to 3096 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 parents' groups? Or the first to surface it was a media report publicly, when it went to the point that it did this year?

I just don't remember back three years. I'm sorry, Councilman.

Okay, if you don't remember, you don't remember. But to me, this is, obviously, one of the more controversial things that has occurred in recent months, and I would think that that would be something that we would have recollection on. But since you don't, you don't. I thank you very much, Madam President.

You're welcome. The Chair recognizes Councilwoman Miller.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Dr. Hornbeck, I have a couple questions too around instructional materials, and I also have an opinion that I'd just like to express regarding school safety and the bus attendants. When the principals reported that they 3097 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 had books or instructional materials, I'd like to know as a part of the report that you'll be submitting, whether those are old materials or new materials. 'Cause that's key. And, you know, I have a daughter in public school, and a couple times when people said they didn't have books, I talked to her about books and talked to her teachers, and yes, they did have books, but they were old books. They had not ordered books in maybe ten years or what not. So I'd like to know, of the materials that they have, are they up to date or are they old? And is it a problem getting books? 'Cause when I read the report, a lot of the schools reported that the books had been on order, they had been ordered. What is the average length of time it takes from an order to actually securing the books?

Well, you know, there's not a -- there's not a -- I mean, there's obviously an average because all you do is add it up and divide it. But there is not a normal time -- let me put it that way -- that you can say 3098 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 across the board. What I've discovered as we've gotten deeper and deeper in this is that weeks -- and in some instances, even months -- can pass and that we are not given priority. I mean, I said to staff, you know, if I go to Borders and order a book, they can have it to me the next day if they can get it from another store, or I can have it within ten days if they've got to order it. But states, for example, like Florida and Texas and California end up with priority on shipping from textbook publishers because they are what are referred to as "textbook adoption states," and so they buy them, in effect, for the whole state. They, in fact, determine the context of textbooks because they can control so much of the marketplace. And one of the things that I've asked this task force that I've been referring to to do is to have conversations with some of these publishers about the shipping schedule. Because while we may not be Texas or California or Florida, we're something bigger than a bread box too, and we ought to be in position to have those 3099 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 kinds of shipments take place in a more orderly fashion so that people ought to be able to either expect books within whatever -- two weeks, three weeks, a month -- or to know when it is going be and then be able to have our policies for ordering books back it up so that we, in fact, have books available in a timely fashion. The last thing on this point that speaks to timeliness is also another issue that the task force will be looking, and that is how many more books than you absolutely need should you order of each group. Should you do a 5 percent overage or a 10 percent overage? So that if a kid does, legitimately or illegitimately, lose his book, he's not necessarily without a book for some long period of time, until some textbook publisher provides it to him.

Okay. What is the average life of the textbook -- not in terms of children's ability, whether they turn them back in or keep them in good conditions, but just in terms of the content, the curriculum content and the use in the classroom? 3100 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28

Well, it will be different for different subject areas. I mean, English literature, in one sense, lasts forever because the biggest bulk of it is classic. In an algebra book, again, algebra is algebra is algebra. In a science book, you would have more knowledge developing. And in things like 4th grade science kits, where you actually have consumables in there, it would be a year-to-year kind of thing. So it depends on the subject matter and on the grade level as to the life expectancy.

Okay. Is there a set time limit that the School Board would actually use an old book or a old version or a five- or ten-year-old version of a book? Is there a period of time where teachers or staff are instructed not to use particular books, that they should have ordered the newer version of that book?

Well, it used to be the case that teachers, schools kept books forever.

Forever. 3101 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28

Because there wasn't serious allocation of book money. But with, again, Council's leadership and our own over these last four years, that's changed significantly. So with an increase in the allocation for books, that's much less a problem.

Okay. Who monitors -- I know you -- this is in regards to accountability. I know that you're having a new system put in place, but if I was the classroom teacher or a principal and my school needed books, who else would know that besides that principal? Would the cluster leader know that? Right now, in the old policy.

If there were a problem with it, the cluster leader might know. Or if, for some reason, something gave rise to a shortage in money, the cluster leader might know. But if it were a routine kind of thing, the principal would be the moving party in that.

'Cause in reading your report, there was one high school in particular, I think, that did not have books in at least four of the major subject areas, and I just 3102 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 wondered to myself, How could that happen? I mean, it --

Well, it really arises out of this historic policy of each school, in a sense, setting its own policy and that's what --

Right. And it was for grades from through 12, so it was almost 9 like, Well, nobody has any books.

Yeah, that's a piece of it, it's an example of a reason that we need the system-wide policy that we were referring to earlier.

Okay. So all those individuals that reported that they did not have books, do they have them now, do you know?

I don't think all of them do at this point. But in every instance, there's action that's been taken to solve the problem.

Okay. I just now want to move the to area of school safety. You know, the instructional and learning outcomes are what parents want for children. School safety, of course, is a number-one issue in Philadelphia 3103 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 public schools and in all schools. Parents want to know that when their children leave their house in the morning, that they're going to travel to school safe. And, you know, communities help by putting together safe corridors, and the Police Department helps by having crossing guards and other police personnel. And once child gets on a school bus -- my daughter rode a school bus for eight years -- half of the time with an attendant, and toward the end, without an attendant. Her principal -- Mr. Crumley (ph.), you remember him from Fitler? He was like a sergeant in the army and he thought his children were his platoon but Crumley felt that his kids did not need bus attendants. But when the new principal came, she decided to do bus attendants. So doesn't the bus attendant stay at the school and provide assistance inside the school during the day?

That was the case in many, many instances when there were bus attendants, yes.

Well, I'm not 3104 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 really that up to date on how much -- on what type of personnel you have in the schools anymore. I know there was a time when some schools lost classroom aides and stuff like that. It would seem to me that having a bus attendant fill in, help out during the day in a particular school would be very helpful and very useful to that particular school. I don't know if a school like Fitler where the total school is de-seg., there are very few children in the school that walk to school. But I would support -- I would support and I would say that it's money well spent when it deals with children's safety. And I would support the call to ask the School District to reexamine its decision and keep the bus attendants on the schools. I want to ask you, though, what happens to children that need to be disciplinary, particularly if they go to one of the de-seg. programs more than an hour or so away? Are those children at some point just told that they are no 24 longer allowed to ride the bus? And if that happens and if their school is an hour and a half 3105 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 away, what happens; do they transfer back to the neighborhood school or just what?

That certainly could be a sort of a bottom-line, final solution. But before you would get there, a step short of that would be being suspended from the yellow bus but being given a token for riding SEPTA.

Mm-hmm. Well, I don't know that the tokens help. I mean, some of the behavior that's in this article is just outrageous, and I don't even know whether a bus attendant would help in some of these cases 'cause to me, they're very extreme. But I believe that school safety is an issue. I have found the attendant very helpful. I've talked to the them if I went to visit my daughter's school, and I think most parents would support the call to keep the bus attendants on the bus. I don't have any more questions right now, Madam President.

Thank you. The Chair recognizes Councilman Cohen.

/990026, 27, 28 Chair. I think the School District is doing a very fine job in the instructional area. I think we're making a lot of progress. At the same time, I have difficulty in understanding why, in other areas, you seem not concerned. For example, I'm sure you are concerned, but I mean concerned to the same extent the parent is. There are always basic things. There are the long-range goals of having test results which show great improvement, which show promise that when kids graduate, they really have gotten the kind of education they ought to get. And I think in that direction, there's been enormous progress in Philadelphia. But there are also other factors like safety, safety in the buses, safety in the schools. It seems to me that you have to pay a lot of attention to the most basic issues that are separated from the kind of long-range, really important things that are written about in magazines about how school systems successfully operate. /990026, 27, 28 safety. Parents are worried when the kids go on buses and they hear reports or see stories like this. I think it's unrealistic to expect in a long bus ride that kids are all going to be well-behaved because we really want the attention of the drive on the road, not on how the kids are behaving. I just wish I could feel that the whole School District really took this seriously and felt that maybe in theory, we ought not to have attendants. You know, maybe kids ought to all be so well-behaved and so responsible that there would be no need for them, but it seems to me that as a parent, parents legitimately are very concerned about the safety of their kids on the way to school, on the way back. I got a letter very recently from a neighbor, two long pages, a very eloquent letter of a neighbor who's a grandparent of a child at Roosevelt Middle School in Mt. Airy, talking about the question of safety in the school building. There have been a number of incidents there. I've begun inquiries there. /990026, 27, 28 additional attendant in the schools, then the principal's going to have to divert money from other purposes in the budget. And that seems to me not a good approach. I just think that on the very little unglamorous issues, on the nuts-and-bolts issues, there's got to be much more of a hand-on approach. I think the concept of driving buses without attendants is not a good concept -- even if every other city in the country did it. I don't find that as a measure of success because we're dealing with Philadelphia's problems. Philadelphia crime and safety are very important issues, and I think they've got to be dealt with as thoroughly as the instructional issues and the ability of kids to do math and read and so forth. So I'd like to urge you to really personally get involved and not just have staff do it. /990026, 27, 28 importance of charter school is the involvement of parents. And I know parents that send their kids to charter schools are usually parents who are already very much interested in school problems, so it's natural that there's that deep involvement. But I sent you a letter suggesting a much deeper involvement, and I get back what obviously was intended not to look like one, but it was a form letter outlining four general things in which the School District takes great pride and certain advances in so-called parent involvement. But I was taking about real parents' involvement. I was talking about -- you know, people write whose kids go to the school, getting involved in issues not just in sales of candy or raising money for curtains. I'm troubled by the fact that there are parents that believe that all they're wanted for in the public schools, as far as involvement is concerned, is to raise money, but to stay far away from basic issues. In the charter schools, they seem to involve parents in basic issues. /990026, 27, 28 bolts. You know, it's great that you're working in the upper areas.

I'm delighted by what appears to be the educational progress, but I think we've got to be able to have a situation in which the parents are comfortable with their kids' safety going and coming and in the school system. And if, say, at Roosevelt School, there seems to be some problems, I don't think the burden ought to be just on the principal to take money away from something else. I think the School District ought to look at the whole thing. Maybe one solution is to give that school an extra attendant in the hallways. I don't know what the precise problem is and I'm not trying to substitute for the ultimate judgment of the School District. But I would feel better if I felt that the top -- let's call it the "top brass" in the School District were really involved in the very basic things that parents worry about. From the moment the kid leaves the house that morning, they're worried about school safety. /990026, 27, 28 were removed. I think at the current time, it would be very important to do everything we could to make people feel much more comfortable, the parents. And I think you do it in the safety issues by not appearing to want to get rid of the attendants but seeing that every bus -- I think every bus probably ought to have an attendant. And if there's a financial problem, I think I ought to be presented frankly so we could deal with that, and I don't think the answer would lie in taking away from instructional to provide bus attendants, but maybe it means that the 15 million that the City adds to the regular budget appropriation, maybe that should be 20 million. I've never understood where that 15 million came from. I assume it's some magical number that some brains unidentified, you know, discovered that 15 million what was needed, because we've never discussed it in City Council. I've personally been afraid to raise the issue for fear we might lose it, but I don't know where that 15 million comes from. /990026, 27, 28 kinds of issues we're raising. So I would hope on out of all of these issues, like I think there's a common thread between Councilman Kenney and you, and I don't know why you ought to be quarreling. I think he ought to recognize of the School District, and I think you ought to recognize the issues he raises as being issues that a lot of parents are being concerned about. Now, just having said that, they're comment; they're really not questions. The one question I have is about the magnet school at the Northeast High School. I was there, did not participate in the discussion but listened intently. I'm interested in general and interested as a 1931 graduate of Northeast High School, when it was at Eighth and Lehigh. I may be the oldest living graduate of Northeast High School who will admit to having gone to Northeast High School, I don't know. But can that matter be resolved? I was delighted that Councilman Nutter seems to be fully informed about that. He's cochairman of some committee. /990026, 27, 28 But I think it would be so good for the public school system to not have not have parents like those I viewed that night at Northeast High School feeling that what they've worked for so hard and for so long is being threatened by the School District.

It's very much my hope that in the foreseeable future, that through good-faith conversations among a lot of people that, in fact, we will find a resolution to the set of issues that have been raised at Northeast that respond to what are a number of legitimate interests that superficially appear to be in conflict with each other, but I don't think are. I think that the program is a really fine program. There has been from time to time some suggestion that while the changes in School District policy were in part in response to kids that have been excluded from participation, those comments, quite frankly, do not pertain, for example, around issues of race to Northeast High School. Mr. Matterazza (ph.), the principal, the parents, they've all worked very hard to have a very diverse program there. 3114 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 So that I think a lot of people are operating in good faith, and I think that we have a very high degree of likelihood that we'll be able to come to a satisfactory conclusion on that because nobody wants that program to maintain its high standards more than I.

Very good. And I just urge time. I think it would be good to put that problem to rest as quickly as possible.

I agree.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

You're welcome. The Chair recognizes Councilman Nutter.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I will be brief. Dr. Hornbeck, to go back to some of the earlier discussion. While I, at the time, disagreed with the recommendation and the decision to remove the bus attendants from the buses, that was a decision that is within the discretion of the School District. You made the decision, you thought you made it for the right reason, and 3115 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 you've come to explain that there's no data that indicates that one way or the other it seems to impair the safety of the children. That's your view, that was your judgment at the time. We have a difference of opinion about that, but we differ on a number of things and we agree on a number of things. Is it also true, though, that that decision was at least in part influenced by the recommendations of the, I guess, the GPF group that made a wide variety of recommendations for how to save money in the school system. That was one you took, there may be others that you didn't take, and so you find yourself, I guess, in a situation of trying to respond to one group's good-faith recommendations on how to save money for a district that is in a fairly serious fiscal crisis balanced with some public safety issues and some analysis that it may or may not make a difference. If there's a body on the bus and then you've tried to, I guess, kind of be somewhere in the middle by putting cameras on some and the appearance of a camera on the others. I think 3116 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 Councilman DiCicco has taken you down the path about putting more cameras on buses. And maybe that is something that you should continue to pursue. Having said all of that, aren't there other recommendations that you received either from GPF or other outside groups to save money that you have rejected? For instance, didn't someone recommend that you stop providing either nursing services or some health-care services because we would get volunteer contributions from either hospitals or something along those lines?

Yes. There was a recommendation in an overview that we could reduce our cost by $70 million over the next 5 years for student health services by, in effect, looking to providers to give us those services free, is the way I think of it.

And you essentially rejected that because you didn't think it was plausible, and you didn't want to jeopardize the health and safety of the students.

That's correct.

Now, three years 3117 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 ago, when the bus attendant decision was made, I believe my recollection is that that was disclosed publicly, and it may have here through the budget process. Is that accurate or inaccurate?

That's correct. We informed the principals, the budget process itself -- in fact, I think, in City Council hearings at the time, we had that discussion. We've had that discussion each year here. It was also a part of the discussions that I and leaders of GPF had with editorial boards at newspapers. I mean, it was a widely known phenomenon in that sense.

So it's not something that's now come out of the clear blue sky, three years later.

No. And when I was saying while ago that I couldn't remember the communication, the only thing that I can't remember is what the exact wording was of some memorandum that may have gone to parent themselves, but it was very widely known and debated because there are these legitimate questions that are raised. 3118 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28

Right.

And we've tried to pursue those. But yes, in many, many forums, it's been a major issue.

It may be helpful if you could provide to the Chair, if you would go back to when this idea originated, if you have copies either of your testimony back from that time. I'd be interested to know what the discussion was here in the chamber, what members would have heard or not heard back at that time. Because, I mean, just if somebody tells you something three years ago, you can't act like you're hearing it for the first time three years later. The last thing is. . . on the issue of GPF and what they've done or not done, have you asked them to take a look at the non-instructional areas, or did they offer -- I'm sorry.

Instructional.

Did you ask them to look at the instructional areas, or did they express an interest in only looking at the non-instructional areas? And if they did ask to 3119 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 look at the instructional areas, what did you do about it? And if they only expressed an interest in looking at the non-instructional, why was that?

In the initial instance four years ago when I first came, the only area that they were interested in or that I asked them about pursuing -- the prototype that the Mayor had used as he came into -- I mean, I took it directly from that -- were the non-instructional activities, not the substantive things; in the same way that the Mayor didn't ask experts on policing to come and do policing or garbage collection on garbage collection or social services, but did effectively ask in effect, corporate-practice-wise. I did the same thing. In the last year -- now, in the last six months, there has been some conversation as we have in effect now, at the end of three years, saved more money than they originally suggested that we could save. And as we have begun to take steps to change the culture, the way of thinking at the School District to one of stewardship, we have had a discussion with the Management and 3120 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 Productivity Task Force around the issue of what would it mean if we looked at the instructional practices? Is there a perspective that GPF might bring to that, either themselves or through, as Councilman Kenney suggested, hiring somebody that would be useful. And we frankly haven't come to a conclusion, acknowledging at the same time that it is not as though the instructional practice is not under a very high degree of scrutiny through the several-million-dollar evaluation process that has been set up at the University of Pennsylvania by a group called CPRE there. It's the Consortium of "something, something, something" -- I don't remember.

I know, read about it in the paper. So you're not opposed to them looking at it.

No. 22

It didn't start out that way. It started one way, and if they want to or if somebody else wants to, you'd be pleased to have them, but it just didn't happen so far, but 3121 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 you're under discussions about it.

That's correct.

Okay.

We have been -- I don't think there's been any school district in the history of the world that has been more open than we have in the last four years. I mean, we've got 33 audits done, we got CPRE evaluating us, we've got Columbia University evaluating us. I mean --

Okay. That's all I want to know. Thank you. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you.

Thank you. At this point in time, I would ask all Councilmembers who are listening to the testimony to please come to the chamber. I believe we have -- are there any other questions from members of the committee? (No further questions at this time.)

Thank you very much, Mr. Hornbeck.

Thank you, Madam President. 3122 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28

Francis Garner. (Francis Garner comes forward.)

Do we have anyone else to testify after Mr. Garner? (Oscar Rosario raises hand.)

If you'll please approach the table, the witness table. Good morning. Please identify yourself for the record and proceed with your testimony.

Yes, good morning.

Please take a seat.

Thank you. Good morning, Madam President. My name is a Francis Garner. That's G-A-R-N-E-R. I'm a bus driver with the School District of Philadelphia. I work out of the Passyunk Avenue garage. May I stand for a moment, please?

Certainly.

I would like everyone here to, please, take a look. I've been 22 years with the --

Excuse me, 3123 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 you're going to have to use the microphone only because the stenographer cannot hear you. You can stand to make your presentation and hold the microphone -- that's entirely up to you.

Thank you.

Mm-hmm.

I just wanted you to take a look. This is the way I drive my school bus every day, and I catch hell. Okay? (Mr. Garner is dressed professionally in a school bus driver's uniform.)

Why is that?

Because of some of the children on your de-seg. and on your so-called special ed. runs. When I first started two years ago, I had a special -- excuse me, I had a de-seg. run in the Northeast. This sheet here is a list -- this is from the School District -- of the procedures we have to go through before we can do certain things with the children. It's 16 steps here that we have to go through with children before we can actually do certain things with the children, disciplinary action with these children. 3124 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28

Do you mind if we make photostatic copies of that so that every member will have it?

Yes, ma'am.

Thank you. Please proceed.

Yes, ma'am. I'm here and I'm crying for help for bus attendants and aides. Without using any names, in January of this year, on one of our buses out of the Passyunk yard, the children graffitied the inside of the bus, pulled the window down, sat outside the window, wrote along the side of the bus -- this was while the operator is operating the bus. They tore up three to four seats down to the metal frame. All this was done while the driver was riding this bus. There was no bus attendant or no aide on board. Another incident. One of my coworkers was fired. He was accused of verbal sexual harassment of some middle-school girls. Their word against his. Again, no bus aide, no bus attendant. If one of those would have been on board, it's my opinion that they would have said no, this didn't happen. /990026, 27, 28 happened. I wasn't there, see, and this is the problem -- it's their word against his. Even with some of the de-seg. -- excuse me, some of the special ed. runs, there are times when there is not a bus attendant or aide on board. The garage will still send you out that way. It happened to me. I have students that will bang their heads. I have students that are subject to fits, seizures. And sometimes we are sent out this way. I am telling you that bus attendants are needed on these buses. I also have papers here where I have been attacked. I have copies here. Where I have been attacked on the bus, causing me to bring the bus to an abrupt stop. Again, this is not hearsay; this is official. I've been lied on. And this is something I want Mr. Hornbeck and everybody here to understand. If a student -- be it male or female -- makes an accusation against a driver, that driver is now under the microscope. He or she is subject to disciplinary action soley on the words of these students. Here we go again. /990026, 27, 28 can say yea or nay to what this student is saying. Earlier Mr. Hornbeck had said that he received information late. It is my opinion -- these are pink slips, what we call "pink slips," the bus referrals for misbehavior on the bus. If the principals and the other school staff would do their jobs and forward these things, to Mr. Hornbeck, he would know about it. Too much stuff is kept in-house, as I call it. They want to keep it undercover as if everything is going along smoothly, and it's not so. There's a lot that goes on that needs to be known about I do not know why principals just -- they just want to keep things -- I don't if it makes them look bad because they have a number of disruptive students coming out of their school, but it is a very serious matter. Yesterday, I had a student -- now, this happened yesterday, although it happened in school, but we as drivers get the spill-over. A student stabbed another with scissors, pulled the young lady's pants down, and I have it right here. It's not my say-so, it's the actual suspension note from the school. /990026, 27, 28 but this is the actual suspension note. And the student hit the teacher. Again, these are spill-overs. A lot of this, I'm sure, does not get back to Mr. Hornbeck, but this is something that goes on and on. And almost every driver in the School District can give you some insight, some incident that has happened with him or her. I'm telling you, the aides are really needed. And again, I was lied on. I think you have a copy of that. A student lied on me about having -- I think there's a copy on your desks. The student lied on me about turning in a doctor's slip. The student was supposed to be back in school -- not be back in school unless he had his doctor's slip. When the student boarded my bus, I was told I had take this student to school even though he didn't have a note. When the student arrived at school, they asked him where the note was. He said, "I gave it to Mr. " That afternoon when I returned to school, the school was up and down my back -- why did I not give this note to the proper authorities. /990026, 27, 28 out the student had lied.

Even his grandmother had lied 'cause they all said that this note was supposed to have been available. Again, we are like stepchildren, we drivers. I'm telling you, this is not a joke. I don't know how much more I can strongly say this to make it clear. And what scares me so badly is that anything a student says -- and especially when they tell it to their parent and they bring it to the school -- is going to be followed through. Now I'm accused, and my reputation is ruined. Even if it's clear that once it hits the paper, then the retraction is going to be a half-inch big. And it's just a mess. I have one more thing to say, then I will --

Excuse me before you go any further, Mr. Garner.

Yes.

You spoke about the incident that occurred yesterday.

Yes, ma'am.

And I am just reading the report. You mean to tell me a child 3129 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 gets one day of suspension for stabbing another child with a scissor and pulling a girl's pants down?

Yes, ma'am. And that's official, that's from the school. That's nothing I made up. That was my copy of --

Well, wouldn't this child have to go before the School Board? Or what action is normally taken?

Well, I don't -- I'm not sure.

It's just. . .

But as you see there, Madam President --

I wouldn't want anybody to think that a child just receives one day's suspension for doing something like that. I would think that that child would have to have some kind of action taken against him.

Well, the child is just --

Excuse me, Madam Chair. I guess we've heard an assumption or a belief that the fact that there are, in fact, 3130 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 alleged scissors involved here, I believe that would be --

It's a weapon.

-- classified as a weapon and subject to Act 26. I think that's the correct terminology, which is a disciplinary procedure.

I wouldn't want anybody to think that for something like this, the child receives just one day's suspension. Miss Ingram, can we get a report from -- oh, I'm sorry, Dr. Hornbeck, I didn't see you there. Can we get a report on what happens in this case, please.

Councilman Nutter is correct, it is Act 26. And when there's a weapon in the school, it is --

So it's not just one day's suspension?

No, no. 24

That's what I wanted to bring to the floor. I didn't want 3131 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 anybody to think that it's a one-day suspension.

I'm glad you cleared that up.

Thank you.

Madam President?

Yes, the Chair recognizes Councilwoman Blackwell.

Thank you. In an incident like this, Mr. Garner also says that he thinks that the student also hit a teacher. In an incident where there's a severe problem with school violence at the school, does not the parent come? Does that kid automatically get the bus? Or what happens, does a child just go on like business as usual on a bus, with a lot of other students? That's a serious issue.

If I may. According to the suspension notice, the child was suspended today. This incident happened yesterday. He is suspended today. According to the notice, he is to come to school Wednesday with his parent. What's going to happen after that, we don't know. And I don't know if it's going to 3132 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 continue after that or what but right --

So if the child is suspended, then they serve out the rest of the school day, go back home on the bus, and then bring the parent to school the next day. Well, do they say anything to you? Do you know that that child is suspended?

Yes, that's why I had a copy. They gave me a copy because I just cannot tell a child, "You cannot board my bus" without authorization from the school, that's what that letter was for. And so I had a copy of the letter letting me know that that child was not to ride on my bus today. I had to take him home yesterday, but he was not to ride today. He's to come to school tomorrow with his parent. Now, what's going to happen after that if he's suspended any longer, I will then be issued another note telling me that it's been extended.

On the day of the occurrence, the day the child had the scissors and all this happened, did the child go home with you on the bus? 3133 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28

Yes, ma'am, that afternoon.

Did you know then -- did they give you a note or did they let you know somehow that that child had had a problem that day? Because it seems to me, that could be a bus incident report because the child is angry because of something that happened at school.

Well, yes, and you're exactly right. We do get a lot of spill-over, you're exactly right. But yes, yesterday afternoon, his teacher came out, gave me a note to make sure I -- they wouldn't give it to him and made sure they gave it to me so I could get it to parent. And she gave me a copy. She said this is because he's suspended, and he's not allowed back on your bus until he is brought to school and this has been resolved.

In your experience, do you have problems with students like this who are angry because of whatever happened at school and get on the school bus that afternoon and then have outbreaks? 3134 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28

It has happened, yes. Without a doubt, it has happened. And sometimes things come from home, where they get on a bus angry from things that come from home. And they figure they can't act out against the parent, so they act out on the school bus.

I'm concerned also, Madam President, about an individual. It's obvious that Mr. Garner is a fine, upstanding person who's committed to his job, and it takes courage to come and speak out when people are around you. But I'm concerned about a person's reputation if they are, in fact, blamed and there's no witness. It seems to me that that's another reason. It seems to me that this whole issue of bus attendants, in the final analysis, may be worth the investment for all of the problems that we have, with all of the reputations at stake, with all of the incidents violent crimes. My goodness, when we had hearings on school violence back in the early '80s -- I don't even remember when we had our first hearings -- we 3135 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 weren't even talking about buses at that point. Now here we're trying to deal with them in schools and in school yards and in neighborhoods, and so the activity has gone to the buses because we've removed the attendants. And it seems to me that we can't be a part of solving a problem if we create another one. And certainly, I would hope that Council would look at it and that the Superintendent would certainly give us, if he hasn't given us, the figures involved. And that we need to consider having bus attendants on buses so that we protect children and certainly the bus drivers. I have even heard of incidents where bus drivers have pulled over, and they've had incidents where -- there was an incident on the news a few months ago, and people thought maybe the bus driver had lost his mind. And I understand there was so much going on on the bus that he could not prove without a witness and that that was the reason for a problem. So I would really, really certainly ask that we have all the figures concerned with what bus attendants cost and what it would cost to have 3136 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 them replaced. And I think the School Board ought to consider the option. It may not be worth -- it may not be worth the alternative of not having bus attendants and school violence and putting people in jeopardy and all of these myriad cases you may have with bus attendants who are working and children on buses. It may be less expensive to just have the attendants back. So I would certainly hope that the Superintendent would provide this information to the President, just how much it costs, and give us some options that you would like to explore so that we may make some obviously intelligent decisions. It's obvious that something is very, very wrong here, and we would like to be a part of the solution -- certainly not a part of this ongoing problem. Thank you, Madam President.

Thank you. The Chair recognizes Councilwoman Miller.

Mr. Garner, I think you reported that your school bus is for 3137 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 special education?

Yes, ma'am.

Well, don't you have an attendant? I thought that --

Yes, ma'am.

You do have an attendant?

Yes, ma'am.

Okay.

But there are times where if she is out sick, I don't get a replacement. And like I said, I have one child who likes to bang his head, and she sits besides him every day. There's another child that's subject to having seizures. And this is not only me; this is with the whole system, it's with the whole system.

I understand. Was the attendant on your bus yesterday when this kid acted out?

Yes.

Okay.

But now don't let me mislead you; this incident happened in school.

Okay. 3138 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28

But we get the spill-over from that. I still have to take this angry child home, and he sits right behind me.

All right, I understand. I mean, I told you, my daughter rode the bus for eight years, so I know all the pluses and minuses and whatnot.

There's something I would like to ask Mr. Hornbeck.

I don't know that we're going to allow that.

Okay. Thank you. I withdraw.

Mm-hmm.

Madam President?

Yes?

Could we find out from the Superintendent if there is a policy or what they do about sub bus attendants on de-seg. and on special ed. buses? There must be a simple answer to that question. Don't they have substitutes?

And, again, I 3139 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 hate to prolong this, but I still would like to know the difference between an attendant and an aide. I know we asked that question before; I just don't recall the answer. And is THERE a difference in salary?

The answer to the substitute question is that a substitute with a special education student who has an attendant in his IEP is required. I don't doubt -- it's the same way that a teacher in every classroom is required, and sometimes we can't find a substitute and, therefore, the question becomes, shall the kid go to school or not go to school? So I'm not doubting that there are instances in which a child rides the bus without a required aide, but the policy is and the requirement is and the practice is most of the time, there is a substitute aide on the bus. I honestly don't know the difference between an attendant and an aide myself. I tend to associate the word "attendant" with a person who's on the bus and an "aide" with a person who works in the school, but I don't know that that's accurate. 3140 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28

I think we have an answer. (John Lombardi comes forward.)

This is Mr. Lombardi.

Mr. Lombardi.

Good morning.

Good morning, Mr. Lombardi.

The bus attendant is a five-hour employee who makes the same hourly rate as a School Aide I, which is the aides that are being referred to this morning -- they're seven-hour employees. So the difference between the two employees is essentially that one is a five-hour and one is a seven-hour employee. They work at the school the difference from the time on the bus route versus the five hours. So if the bus route is a three-hour bus route, an hour and a half each way, then they'll work two hours a day in the school. For a school aide, if it's a three-route, they'll work four hours a day in the school. So that's essentially the difference in between the two. They perform the same functions 3141 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 on the bus, and they're at the principal's discretion in the school.

Madam President, I didn't hear him. He said the off-time, they work in the school.

The time that they're not riding the bus, Councilwoman, then they're working in the school. If they're a seven-hour employee and they're work three hours on the bus, then they're required to work four hours per day in the school.

It's the aide.

And that's the aide?

That's an aide.

But a bus attendant is a seven-hour-a-day --

No, the bus attendant is a five-hour employee; the school aide is a seven-hour employee.

Oh, just the opposite.

Right. 3142 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28

And they serve as like an NTA function in the school?

I'm not sure. The principal has them doing a myriad of things in the school.

Okay, thank you.

Thank you very much. Are there any other questions of Mr. Garner? Or, Mr. Garner, are you complete with your testimony?

Yes, I am. I think I would like to, for the last couple of minutes, turn this over to Mr. Rosario. He's a driver, also.

Thank you. Mr. Rosario?

Good afternoon.

Good afternoon.

My name is Oscar Rosario, O-S-C-A-R, R-O-S-A-R-I-O. I work -- I also work for the Passyunk garage, School District of 3143 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 Philadelphia, bus number 336, route 36-37. When I read the articulate that they're going to eliminate the bus attendants, all this going to do is to increase the violence and the misbehavior on the school buses. For instance, look at my bus, 336, they call it "the blue horizon bus." You know what the blue horizon IS right, Councilwoman? Well, they fight -- they fight every day, every day. You see this? (Holding up stack of papers.) I got about 100, 150 write-ups, you know? I need these back, okay? The principal -- the principal has copies of these reports. And everybody knows about what's taking place in my bus. There are videotapes, I give them to the management of Passyunk garage, but nobody gives a damn about the children, no one, because I don't get no 20 responses. I don't have a bus attendant. I asked for a bus attendant; they say, oh, no, that cost too much money. What, $3 million? But management just got a goddamn raise, they just got a 4 percent raise. And they say they don't have the 3144 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 money? Come on now, let's be real. See, I am upset because I do carry childrens (ph.) in my bus, and they going to hold me responsible? I put my bus to the side about four times on a daily basis. So one time, I even called the cops because I have riots in my bus. So they say, Okay, we give me a camera -- a camera? You know what the kids do to the camera? And excuse the expression, they go like this, you know, I mean, they stick the middle finger to the camera. The $3 million that they're going to save to eliminate the bus attendants? Come on, Mr. Hornbeck. Mr. Hornbeck, don't be a part of the problem; be a part of the solution. I'm finished.

Now, I am looking at what you've submitted to us, and I see that this one student was written up at least 13 times?

Yes, ma'am.

And you mean to tell me that after 13 write-ups, you don't know what action has been taken? 3145 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28

They never give you any feedback.

Well, do you know if any action was taken at all?

Sometimes.

Do you ask the --

Yes.

Who do you give these to, the principal?

Yes.

Do you ever ask the principal what happened?

I do. By the way, the school is Jenks. Yes, I go there and I say what happened, when can I get my slips? 'cause I'm supposed to get a copy or a response to those copies. Sometimes when I see them missing from my bus, 'cause sometime I see them, they are not coming. I say, What happened to little Johnny? They say, Well, he's been suspended. That's how I find out because the kid tell me himself.

The Chair 3146 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 recognizes Councilwoman Blackwell.

Thank you, Madam President. Can't we have a system that allows for bus attendants on buses, Superintendent Hornbeck, that traditionally show they've had violence? Can't we at least do that much? Maybe in some schools where there's none, abide by this rule, but in instances where there has been violence. Mr. Rosario says he experiences this every day.

Almost every day.

It would seem to me that if this is happening three or four times a week that this would be a perfect candidate for a bus attendant. Could you respond to that, Superintendent?

These are the type of issues that are constantly under review. And, clearly, if there is an instance -- and I want to know where this kid was this year with 13 write-ups.

Well, there's more than just one; this one has twelve. I see 3147 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 that there are a number of them that certainly have more than four or five write-ups. This one has fifteen, if you please.

If it's 15, 37, 10, whatever it is, I would like to see them. And I do think, again, that there clearly needs to be something done about children like that. I guess the only -- the only debate is the issue of the attendant, and I don't think there's any evidence that attendants are what makes the difference. And I think that there are clearly lots of places with as many kids, as many drivers, etc., where you don't have that. But that there should be a situation that does not result in a kid with 15 or 20 or even 6 incidents of that kind is absolutely clear.

I believe that one of the youngsters -- Councilwoman, that top one that you have?

Yes.

I believe that that youngster had three suspensions.

It would seem to me, Madam President, that this might be a good 3148 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 way to secure counseling for a kid. If a kid's fighting on a bus every other day or times, 4 then this child has a problem, and this is one way 5 to -- 6

And got 7 suspended three times. 8

Absolutely. 9 So somebody ought to take out the time to just 10 find out what's wrong and what kind of help we can 11 try to secure for these children. 12

Certainly, we should pay attention to that. It suggests that we don't do that; in fact, it's not uncommon at all for part of the disciplinary process to be counseling. And, unfortunately, with all the kids, they don't end up "cured" in a sense. And certainly, this remains a series of issues that I expect will be a part of the topic of discussion for the Transportation Committee.

I would request, Madam President, that we receive at least a response to what happens in these cases and from the viewpoint of the bus attendant as well as the student in his or her development, what we're 3149 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 doing about that. If you would get that the to President and she would let us know.

If you wouldn't mind, Madam President, collecting these several things, having staff do that and get them to me, I'll be glad to respond as we did in the past. Thank you.

Don't you have staff here taking notes? Do you have staff here taking notes of what we would like?

Well, I have no idea who these -- we don't know who they are.

Oh, the slips. Well, we don't have the slips either because I think the bus driver said he wants them back.

Councilwoman Blackwell has them there.

But she has to give them back to the bus driver.

Well, if somebody will tell us who we're talking about, we'll be glad to respond.

I think the 3150 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 bus driver could certainly share that with you.

That will be fine.

I will make copies and send them to you.

Maybe he could make a copy before he leaves, Mr. Rosario.

Does anybody else have any questions or comments of Mr. Rosario?

Actually, my question is going to be for Dr. Hornbeck.

Councilman DiCicco.

Mr. Hornbeck, is the School District ever sued by any of the students or the parents of the students for incidents that occur on these buses? Does anyone know that?

I'm not aware of any.

No? You don't know or you just --

There certainly has not been one in the last four years in which it was a suit of any sort of serious proportion. There 3151 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 might have been some nuisance suit, but there was never one where a judgment was found against us or anything like that.

Okay, so I don't have any further questions. I just was curious if we were paying any awards to people who were suing for whatever. Okay, thank you. No further questions.

Thank you. Any other further questions or comments? (No further questions.)

Thank you. I believe we have a grandmother in the audience who would like to testify. I believe her name is Peggy Mims. Please approach the witness table, Ms. Mims. (Ms. Mims comes forward.)

Good afternoon.

Good afternoon. Please identify yourself for the record.

Yes, good afternoon. My name is Peggy Mims. I am in public relations with 3152 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 the organization GAPS, "Grands As Parents." Also, I'm a community representative for all new beginning Head Starts, and I share a vice presidency with Julia Dansey (ph.) on Grand Central, which is a grandparent resource organization. I have a grandson here. His name is William Waddell (ph.). I am raising four grandchildren, from to 7. 11 William is constantly bothered on the 12 bus. Now, I'm not saying that sometimes William 13 does not do something; he does. But usually, 14 there's not an aide on the bus. One morning about 15 three or four weeks ago, the bus stopped in front 16 of my house and they couldn't leave for almost 17 eight minutes. There was a fight going on -- three boys jumping across the seats, kicking one young man as bad as they could, as many times as they could. He was sitting behind the bus driver. The bus driver sat there, he asked them to stop. The aide was being thrown around. I have constantly reported this. Yesterday he does his homework on the way home to keep him busy. He dropped his pencil, 3153 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 he leaned down to get his pencil. When he leaned down, he said, Please do not kick me, I just want to pick up my pencil. The boy kicked him in the face. His face was swollen all night long. He's on the way to the doctor today. I have complained so many times about an aide not being on the bus because it's so dangerous. The children, some of them are very, very vicious. Now, I know a lot of these children have problems, but I cannot see how you do not feel that you do not need some sort of an attendant or someone on these buses. These children can be down right unruly, some of them are very, very mean, and it stems over from what's going on at home and, as the bus driver said, what's going on in school. Some of the them, by the time they get on the school bus in the morning, a lot of them have not even had breakfast, and they don't make it to breakfast in the schools because the bus has different routes to pick up. These children are unruly home. Some of them have been home all night long without a parent, and they bring this meanness to school. 3154 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 And children that get on the bus who have had breakfast, who have a loving parent in the morning, who gets on the bus to sit down and maybe play a hand game or look at a book or something, these children are ridiculed. I feel for the bus drivers, I really do, because I feel as though they need help on the bus. Now, my grandson -- I was on my way today to the Board of Education because the Board of Education, I believe, does pay the buses -- I don't know but I was going to find out. And then Julia told me that this was going on. I thank you for giving me the forum to speak, but I do not intend to let this go. I cannot have my grandson or any of my grandchildren constantly coming home like this. I do believe that an attendant is needed, and I'm going to do everything and anything that I can to do to try to see that one is put on the bus -- with my children, anyway.

How old is William?

William will be 9 in June -- 3155 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 I'm sorry, he will be 10 in June.

And how old are the other children on the bus?

I only have one other child riding the bus, she's seven years old and she goes to Pratt. He goes to Kenderton, at 15th and --

Do they ride the same bus?

No, they do not. She goes to Pratt.

On William's bus, what are the ages of the children on that bus; do you know?

They range from different ages. I think they range anywhere from 7 or 8, up to 13 and 14 years old. Now, the child that kicked him in the face goes to a school by the name of Bethune. I think he has it wrong, I'm going to get it checked out, but I think he's saying it wrong. But these children are all ages. Now, I will tell you, William is in a special ed., okay? But William knows that he must sit down on the bus, he knows this. And I've told the bus 3156 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 driver and I also try to work with the bus driver. If William does anything on the bus, I want the bus driver to report it to me. And William uses the time for different things that he likes to do. He knows that he cannot be unruly on the bus. And like I said, you can never say what your child won't do. But this downright viciousness, it has to stop. The bus driver cannot -- this particular bus driver, he's not able to pull over, and I mean, these kids are really going at it. They're jumping across the seat. I mean, they had this boy, and they were kicking him, you know, and it was awful. And they just took the aide and was throwing her around, you know. So I have called continuously. I am -- I'm tired -- I've left two or three messages for Mr. Lombardi; I never received a call back, you know.

Well, Mr. Lombardi is in the audience.

Yes, I know.

I'm sure he'd 3157 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 be more than happy to talk to you.

Okay, thank you.

Are there any questions or comments? (No questions.)

Thank you so much for coming in to testify.

Thank you for letting me speak.