3043 COUNCIL OF THE CITY OF PHILADELPHIA CAPITAL PROGRAM & BUDGET HEARINGS BEFORE THE COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - - - Room 400, City Hall Philadelphia, Pennsylvania Tuesday, April 13, 1999 10:35 a.m. - - - Bill No. 990026 - Amending Chapter 19-1800 of The Philadelphia Code entitled "School Tax Authorization". . . Bill No. 990027 - Amending Chapter 19-1800 of The Philadelphia Code entitled "School Tax Authorization". . . Bill No. 990028 - Amending Chapter 19-1800 of The Philadelphia Code entitled "School Tax Authorization". . . PRESENT: COUNCIL PRESIDENT ANNA C. VERNA, Chair COUNCILWOMAN AUGUSTA CLARK COUNCILWOMAN JANNIE BLACKWELL COUNCILMAN DAVID COHEN COUNCILMAN RICHARD MARIANO COUNCILMAN JAMES F. KENNEY COUNCILWOMAN DONNA REED-MILLER COUNCILMAN MICHAEL A. NUTTER COUNCILMAN ANGEL ORTIZ COUNCILMAN FRANK DICICCO COUNCILMAN FRANK RIZZO CHARLES MCPHERSON, Chief Financial Officer - - - VINCENT VARALLO ASSOCIATES, INC. Registered Professional Reporters Eleven Penn Center, Suite 600 Philadelphia, PA 19103 (215) 561-2220 3044 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 I N D E X David Hornbeck, Superintendent. . . . . . . 3045 School District of Philadelphia Francis Garner, Bus Driver. . . . . . . . . 3122 School District of Philadelphia John Lombardi, Director of Transportation 3140 School District of Philadelphia Oscar Rosario, Bus Driver . . . . . . . . . 3142 School District of Philadelphia Peggy Mims, Private Citizen . . . . . . . . 3151 Thomas Doyle, President, Local 1201 . . . . 3157 3045 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 P R O C E E D I N G S
Good morning. This is the continued public hearing of the Committee of the Whole regarding Bill No.'s 990026, 990027, and 990028. Good morning.
Mr. Hornbeck, what procedures have you put into place regarding the textbook shortage? Can you just elaborate on that since you heard what we heard from many of our constituents? Secondly, what procedure will you be putting into place to regard this complaint?
Well, we'll be doing two different basic things. One has to do with the way in which the system works with books, and that will be a much tighter set of system-wide policies. As I testified when I was here before, basically, it's been a school-by-school set of policies. And while that has resulted in our reducing the number of -- percentage of schools without books from 60-some-odd percent to 3046 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 percent, it still is 18 percent not there, and I think we need system-wide policies of that kind. The other factor are the kids themselves, and we will be establishing a new set of accountability procedures with respect to kids, which will involve things like payment for the books, the withholding of grades if they're not paid, the possibility of not participating in extracurricular activities. As I said in my testimony the last time, a task force has been convened in the office of the chief of staff. We expect recommendations by the end of April or the first week in May, and in May, we'll take those recommendations to the Board of Education for adoption so that they are in place and operative, and everybody's informed of them as we go into the summer.
Very well. I would like to say that we want to be informed that you're monitoring the process as well as the status of the books in the schools, and you will keep us informed on that?
We have 3047 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 established a Teacher Recruitment Committee and also a Transportation Committee. I have assigned Councilmembers to the committees.
And I am asking that you please work very closely with both committees, particularly the Transportation Committee regarding the bus aides and attendants and also the token issues. I can't believe -- you know, I have receiving letters. I'm not going to read this letter, but this is just a sampling that I will share with you of the type of letters that we are getting, and I will not read it for the record. (Above-cited letter given to Dr. Hornbeck.)
At this point in time, the Chair recognizes Councilman Nutter.
Excuse me, Madam President, if I may, just for clarification. When we were at Council last and then in a telephone conversation that we had, it had been my understanding that you expected us to convene these two committees, and you gave me four 3048 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 Councilmembers each, and I've asked our Director of H.R. and the Greater Philadelphia First to convene the Recruitment Committee, and the Greater Philadelphia --
I'm just trying to make sure we've only got one committee going.
Yes, by all means. 3049 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28
Thank you, Madam Chair. This is probably in the same area, and I'm tangentially aware of the committees to which the Chair makes reference. But specifically, Dr. Hornbeck, I did want to get a sense of where we are with this, I think, legitimate looming crisis on the recruitment of teachers. You articulated, I think, during the regular the -- at start maybe of the budget hearing process, in one of the various documents, there was essentially three ideas for trying to deal with our recruitment problem. Off the top of my head, I believe one was residency, one was pay, and the other may have been the ability to decide where that person is going to go, and there were some contractual issues that revolve around that particular issue. I think you probably have a sense that on the one hand, many, if not most and possibly all, members are concerned about this particular 3050 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 issue, although there's varying levels of support or lack thereof on doing anything for the moment on the residency issue. I think there is, though, a tremendous amount of concern and interest in trying to address the other two issues first; and if those attempts fail, then people may be interested in revisiting the residency issue. Can you tell me, though, for the moment what the plan is for the moment what the plan is going forward knowing what your landscape is like? What are we going to do about the recruitment problem, current vacancies, and then what you anticipate at least by way of your testimony an even larger problem going into September? Let me lastly say that between the last time you were here and today, there was at least one story, I believe, in The Inquirer which seemed to indicate that this is not, in fact, just a Philadelphia problem, and that it is going on you all across the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, and certainly the counties and school districts around us are facing the exact same problem. But what are we going to do? 3051 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28
With respect to the three issues that you raised, let me start there. Those are not ideas for addressing it; those really were the three top reasons that people gave for declining employment with us.
In the case of -- setting residency aside for the moment, with respect to the other two, they basically cannot be addressed in a -- on an across-the-board way until August of 2000 because both of them have major implications for the contract. We can't change compensation, for example, without agreement with the Federation; although I suspect if we offered more money today, they might agree to an amendment of the contract, but I don't have more money. With respect to the placements --
Has there been any 3052 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 discussion with the PFT, for example? And I understand you try to not spend money that you don't have, although sometimes you might find yourself in that situation anyway. But on the teacher recruitment issue, has there been any discussion -- formal, informal -- about what it would take to provide a financial incentive to increase -- I guess this is a starting-pay issue comparing us to other places -- and broach that subject? And then has anyone said anything to us about what it would take to get that piece done?
We have had conversations in different ways with the Philadelphia Federation of Teachers about the future of new teachers on -- at a variety of entrance points. We have not had that conversation in the context of simply trying to provide an extra $3500 for starting salaries, which would be the amount of money that would make us on par with the surrounding areas.
And we really haven't done that for two reasons. One is we don't have the money to do it; we're already operating in a 3053 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 deficit way. We have had some conversation about bonuses, which is a kind of different way of approaching it. And I am not anxious to go very far down the compensation route in a single-bullet kind of way as opposed to addressing the compensation issues across the board. That doesn't leave us without ways of approaching the issues, however. And on lots of other fronts, we have continued to take aggressive action, ranging from somewhat more opening, it appears, I hope, to maybe keeping that retirement window open, and in Harrisburg, which probably can save us 300 vacancies all by itself. And except for the higher level of expenditure for an experienced teacher, not cost any money to the more aggressive issues taken as well. But the Recruitment Committee, as the President has suggested, I think actually has a meeting scheduled now, and we envision not only the four Councilpeople and our H.R. people, but two or three senior H.R. people from corporations to be a part of that. And I hope that out of that, as we talked last time, there will emerge a consensus of initiatives that will cross a number 3054 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 of these lines and come with a fully balanced program. And I don't see that needing to take a real long time to come up with those things.
Well, I understand that. Lastly on this, the compensation/bonus issue, which you characterize as either a contract issue or a single-bullet approach. Aren't you, though, at the end of the day, given the immediacy of the problem, forced almost to deal with it more as a single bullet, because the problem is now, as opposed to the more comprehensive way in a full compensation package, which you can only address almost a year and a half from now?
Okay. The second part of this -- or I guess the last issue that came up from your surveys back had to do with placement, I believe. And I think I cut you off as you were getting ready to go into that area.
That is largely a 3055 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 seniority issue. And I see no opportunity to deal with it outside of the boundaries of the contract prior to August of 2000. The history of that issue tells me that.
I understand. Lastly, just to go back for one second, you said you didn't particularly feel that you were in a position to talk about bonus or compensation issues because of lack of dollars. If there were dollars available for such a program, would you pursue it?
No, I said don't elaborate on the last one -- "yes" is fine.
Just leave it at "yes." The more you explain, the more trouble we have. Thank you. Thank you, Madam Chair.
The Chair 3056 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 recognizes Councilwoman Blackwell.
Thank you, Madam President. Certainly, I am glad to hear about information on the committees. I'm particularly interested in serving on the Transportation Committee, as we've spent a lot of time and energy over the last -- oh, I don't know -- year and a half on this issue and have done some work with regard to research across the country on this issue. So I would really, really like to work on this Transportation Committee. And I would also note that I am glad that the in paper today, the issue of transportation is front and center: "Help, Drivers Cry" on of the Philadelphia Daily News. So that is also good news so that we do have it as a major issue today. In that regard, let me ask one question, and then I'll ask one question on another subject until the committee meets. These bus referral forms, it seems to me, Superintendent, that's one of the major issues with regard to this, these bus referral forms and 3057 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 what happens. I know your response has been if it's only schools, there must be problems there 4 with those drivers, but it seems to me that 5 there's something else -- that there's something 6 else happening here. And so I wanted to ask about 7 the forms. 8 And also, we have information about 9 students that are written up many, many times. 10 What happens in this regard with the students who continue to be disruptive on buses? Those two questions only.
Well, let me say first of all that I've never suggested that in the problem areas that it's only the drivers that may have a problem. Indeed, I think that there have been instances -- in fact, I know there have been instances -- in which the school's response --
-- is inadequate. Sometimes it's the driver, sometimes it's the principal, sometimes it's the assistant principal. You know, it's a variety of ways. And what we do is to try to respond to wherever the 3058 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 problem seems to be. With respect to youngsters that are sort of repeaters in a sense, they are dealt with in the same disciplinary process that we would deal with disruptive behavior in any school setting. In some instances, it simply in effect means being called to the office, and some of us had the experience of that being quite enough to deal with our behavior, or a telephone call to a parent. But it can include being suspended from your right to ride the bus and does include that. And in certain instances, what happens is that it's not just, "Well, your suspended from riding the bus" necessarily, but it also may involve then putting a youngster, as we tend to say, on a token. And so you don't get to ride the yellow bus but we're also not keeping you from attending school, and we give you access then by -- if you can't afford it -- by virtue of a token. So it's a whole series of things that we try to have be appropriate to whatever the behavior was. It can include, in fact, referral to the police department and arrests, you know, if 3059 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 the kids are older and if it is some sort of an incident that is serious -- not unlike the range of disciplinary actions that are taken in the schoolhouse itself for various kinds of behaviors.
Have you seen this form, "vicious violence inside school route 36"? There are three students named, and the form says that some students received three-day suspension, but they continued to misbehavior behave, and they're afraid that somebody will get hurt, and this also refers to a videotape that was taken showing some of these students on 3/17/99, a videotape.
No, it's not familiar to me. I'll be glad -- as in any instance, I'll be glad to specifically look into that. But, no, I have not seen that.
All right. So we would certainly appreciate it if you would get back to the Chair, and then maybe this committee can look at that. And one other question on a separate issue now.
Could we have a copy or 3060 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 that?
Another issue, the form we saw, the blue form about what we do in health emergencies.
Can we now say -- I've been saying it anyway as I go across the City that this is something that happened that we're very glad happened. Was that form approved, and will it be in schools by September?
You're welcome. The Chair recognizes Councilman Mariano.
Thank you, Madam 3061 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 President. Mr. Hornbeck, I have a son that's an 8th-grader that goes to AMY-5. Just through personal experience, things that happened to us this year but the books. Over the Easter holidays, Vince didn't bring home his report card, so I figured, He's got a bad report card and he's hiding it from me. So come Tuesday, when they go back to school, I call the school, and the lady at the front desk was forthright with all the information, and I said, But Vince didn't get his report card. Why didn't he? Why didn't he get it? And she said, That's pretty easy. There's one of two reasons -- either he didn't give it to you or we're holding it because he didn't return a book. And sure enough, Vincent didn't return a book, Martin Goes to Selma Alabama. Now, he didn't realize that till he got there Monday. Monday afternoon, he found it, then he had his report card. And, you know, I thought he was hiding it 'cause it may not have been that good, but it was good, actually, and the lady was very 3062 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 forthright at the desk. So there's something that works in the school. I don't know what the overall plan is, but that was enough to get my attention.
Point 2 is the bus. Vince has been taking the bus all of 7th grade, all of 8th grade. When the attendants were on the bus, believe it or not, there was -- he was a lot more serious in behavior on his and in what happened on the bus. Now, he's an average 14-year-old, he's an 8th grader. Since the attendants have been off the bus, and he has Atlantic, so I don't think -- Atlantic is subbed out, and I don't think -- that's not members of your local?
And they start up in the Northeast, way up at Fox Chase School. Now, we've had several meetings with the parents. I actually got some letters from two constituents 3063 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 that Mr. Farlino (ph.) handled pretty well, where parents aren't putting their children on the bus. It seems now that the kids know what buses had the cameras and what don't. Now, they know that if they misbehave on bus 6745 -- I'm just making up this number -- there's a black box there. Well, nothing ever happens to them so, therefore, in their mind, there's not a camera, okay? So if the bus driver doesn't report them and if he does and there's nothing to substantiate that request, now if they misbehave on another number bus and they bring them in and they say, Well, the kids are smart enough to deduct that there's a camera on that bus, they know what buses the camera's on. It took about a month to two months to figure out what buses the camera's on. Vince doesn't take the bus anymore; he gets tokens. One of his friends goes to Roman, he gives him $9, he gets the school bus tokens 'cause they're not available, to my knowledge, at the 8th-grade level, and he does it himself -- much to my wife's chagrin, she's nervous. I figure he's 3064 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 got to learn it anyhow, so he might as well do it. And it's better for him 'cause he's home on time and he gets there faster and he can sleep late. But they are a lot of people that can't do that. From just personal experience, if we can look at having the attendants back on these buses. These kids are smart. Are they the most well-behaved kids in the world? No, they're kids. Are there some bad kids? Probably. I hate to say that any kids are bad, but I hate to say they're all good, including my son. I mean, things happen when their peers are there and they're misbehaving and they're trying to impress girls and whatever happens among 7th- and 8th-graders. It's just that that -- I could see the difference. And I've met with the Atlantic people, I met with the people from the School Board, and they have one favorite bus driver who happened to be an ex-policeman, and he even got in a problem one time because he had to make a stop and kids were throwing rocks at the bus and he had to do something. Now, he's actually a police -- in fact, he might still be a policeman, I said "ex," but he may still be a policeman, so they so 3065 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 can't get him all the time. I'm not sure what the answer is. Obviously the kids are smart enough to know the difference, and if we could have attendants of every bus, if there's any way or any funding that we can help with, I think it would be a good thing, just to have another adult on that bus.
Well, one of the things that I suspect -- and will bring it up if nobody else does as a first step and you point this up -- is whether or not -- and I think maybe Councilman DiCicco raised it the last time too -- is whether we ought to really go ahead and consider spending the $450,000 that it would take to basically put actual cameras with film on every bus, or at least a heck of a lot larger ratio than it's --
My problem with that is, eventually they're going to be smart enough to figure out that there's something you can buy at Radio Shack that neutralizes a videotape. I'm sure Councilman Rizzo has one 'cause he's Inspector Gadget here. But there's actually something with magnetic waves that you can put up that erases the tape. It's only a 3066 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 matter of time before somebody sees that. I mean, there's nothing like a human being. If we could put $450,000 into cameras, what's the difference? I don't know the difference in the price but I'm sure to have somebody working and to give their money back into the tax base, 'cause that's what trying to do here.
Well, the difference with the cameras, like over four years, would be $15.5 million between four years' worth of savings on attendants and a one-time expenditure.
But when you figure that out, are you figuring into that what we would get in City wage taxes back to that attendant? Does that enter into your formula?
I'm looking at it in this context, strictly in the context -- I guess it would be 5 percent less than that, so it would be something closer to $14,250,000.
But mathematics aside, I would say there's a human factor that has to go that beside that cold 450 million minus the 5 percent. There's the money that that lady 3067 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 spends in the grocery store that may be an attendant. There's the money that that guy in the grocery store makes because he's selling more things. That might be another family that doesn't move to New Jersey because everything's rosy in New Jersey, we see the New Jersey education commercials on TV every night.
Yeah, well, I'm sure everything's not rosy over there; they just don't put their bad things on television.
But if you would please figure the human factor into it. If it is $10 million, we could get it down, whatever it is, you know?
This certainly will -- I can't imagine it not being one of the issues that will be considered by the Transportation Committee. It is a -- that's a huge number, though, of computers and reading specialists and you, know all, kinds of things.
Right. Thank you. 3068 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28
What accountability measures have been put in place? So that principal's report, how they spend textbook money. Did you understand that?
Yes. The accountability measures are through the budget itself in the line item related to books and other instructional materials, I think, is what it's called. And so, we track those expenditures in the same manner that we track others, but that's the line item in which that sets. What has not been done yet, which is the piece that -- this report to the board and that I will report to Council on in a couple of months is what, in effect, non-budget policies we will use to track the textbook distribution and collection and monitoring. But it will be a system-wide way rather than an individual-school way. 3069 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28
But Mr. Superintendent, our problem is with individual schools. Will each school have an inventory -- have a list of books that they purchased this year so that they'll have purchased books, they'll have distributed books, they'll have unexpended dollars. Then if you read across the line, you will see what each school did.
Do we have a system like that so that on your desk, you can tell which principals bought one book for each child in each major subject?
On the budget front, in terms of the whole school, we know how much they've spent, and we have a mechanism for tracking what they spent it on. We do not presently have in place -- which is this other thing that we will have in place by the summer -- a process by which we can know in a routine fashion, on a system-wide basis about, you know, Mrs. Jones' English class in Room 24 102. Historically, that's what's been left to the school. 3070 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28
I think that instead of having what we've done historically, we need a system-wide way of ensuring that each school processes its books. And in my mind, there are three parts to that: one is how do kids get the books; the second is how do kids treat the books during the year; and the third is how the school gets the books back at the end of the year. And there needs to be system-wide uniform processes for that to happen so that next year, I would be the position of saying, you know, this is the way it happens.
I think that if we did the report, it would then permit us to see which schools had not followed the practice, we could see where we needed to help.
And to go in and to intervene. I can remember Jeanette Brewer 3071 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 saying to me year after year, We will solve the school problem, and it just won't get solved and stay solved. It seems to me that a school-by school, classroom-by classroom accounting of which materials were acquired, which materials were distributed, and which materials were returned would give you a situation that would be fairly clear on our instructional material distribution system. Now, if that system has holes in it, you'll be able to see it and fix it without having to tear the whole thing down.
I'm anxious to see this implementation. Will the report come to your desk, will the system-wide report ultimately get to you?
Oh, yeah, absolutely. As I said before, I'm really pleased that with your leadership and ours and with Dr. Brewer's in 3072 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 the beginning, that we've taken giant steps forward. And I urge us all not to forget that because there are lots more kids with books today than three years ago, but we've still got or 6 percent where we've not covered that yet. 7 And on top of that, as you suggest, we 8 don't know today classroom-by-classroom, and we 9 need to know that in order to go that last 18 to 10 20 percent. And that will be one that I will be 11 routinely informed about because I want to keep 12 improving this thing. I mean, I will give you a 13 report on Council on that. 14
But you need to 15 get it early in the school year. 16
Like October, so 18 that we will then be able to fix it. You see, the 19 school year is essentially over. 20
I agree with you, Councilwoman Clark. And I think of this a little bit like I thought of that leveling process a few years ago. As you know, when I came here, kids didn't know who their teachers were, and teachers didn't know who their kids were until November. 3073 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 And we've basically solved that problem, and kids now, the leveling takes place in September. Similarly, it's just crazy for -- even if it's only percent of the kids not to have 6 their books at the start of the school for 18 7 percent. So we need to find a satisfactory, final 8 -- I mean, we'll always have a handful of places 9 where a kid on a given day doesn't have a book, 10 but it ought to be down on, you know, the or 11 or or percent level, not, you know, at 18 12 percent. 13
And that would be 14 the kids' fault not the system's fault. 15
Well, that's true. And 16 quite frankly, in a lots of instances, it is. But 17 need to figure out ways to help the kid meet his 18 only responsibility in this thing too, which is one of the reasons we will be doing the things like Councilman Mariano said, making uniform things like you don't get your report card if don't get book back, and then we escalate it from there. I agree with you.
But if you didn't 3074 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 have a book and there's no book to bring back, this kid's not going to do well if he didn't have a book. So let's commit to him and to the public that every child who attends will have a book in every major subject not later than September.
And then we will see which schools have failed, we will see which classrooms and which schools have failed, and that will be the place where we will put our emphasis to correct the problem.
And I would certainly hope the report which would be forthcoming would be much better than the one that we received in the last month when we were told that there were sufficient books in certain schools, and then we were told by parents that that was very, very inaccurate. 3075 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 The Chair recognizes Councilman Kenney.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Considering the famous debates that Councilmember Clark and myself have had over the last seven years, I will resist on the opportunity to pick on her today. (Laughter.)
'Cause I know she's defenseless today. I'm fighting it a little bit myself so I can understand. A lot of the issues, Dr. Hornbeck, that we discuss in this room relating to the School District seem to revolve around basic issues, basic issues of books. And now we have the basic issue of safety on a bus. When I read the story that I read in the paper today by Kevin Haney about -- not the main story, about which I have very much concern, but the story down at the bottom that gives examples of what exactly is happening on our buses. One young man actually grabbed the steering wheel of the bus, jumped out the 3076 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 emergency door, exposed his backside, urinated on the bus, and shouted obscenities. He's been written up time and time again, according to the bus driver, and the most severe punishment that that young man received was a week off the bus. It would seem to me that that young man needed to have some police contact -- not necessarily to have him arrested or to have him locked up, but to get him into a loop or a system where a judge or a social worker or a psychiatrist apparently would be able to make a determination of what that young person needs before he's riding on a bus to Curran Fromhold, because it seems as if that's where he may be going at or or 16 years of age. 17 And I'll go a little further in the 18 story, where a young woman who rides the bus every 19 day from Juniata Park to Rush Middle School, and 20 it makes me sad that she's quoted as saying, 21 "They'll be fighting on the bus, jumping over 22 seats, and I get a headache every day." Her attitude about going to school and doing well once she gets there must be severely impacted, severely impacted by what she goes through every day on 3077 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 that bus, and that young woman should never have to go through that, and I know you agree with me on that. A Meehan student hung out the bus window so far that his hands almost touched the tires. Now, we may save $3 million on these bus attendants, but what do you think we would be paying if that young man's hands got caught in the wheel of that bus and was killed? We would be paying millions of dollars in a wrongful death suit because of the lack of security and safety on these. And the bus drivers says that basically, no one wants to run the Meehan route; the Meehan route is pretty -- apparently, a pretty infamous route. The last thing that's mentioned in the story is that a driver of one of the Northeast routes had to be transferred after an unruly student's parent sent a threatening letter that said, in the letter, "Don't make me F you up," the letter warned. Was that person referred, or was that incident referred to the Police Department for the threat, the terroristic threats that were made by that parent, for that parent to be 3078 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 arrested by the Police Department? Because, from my perspective, if you put that kind of threat in writing, I think you deserve to be arrested. The question is, how many problem routes do we have? Now, I doubt every route is problem so how many problem routes do we have? How many routes do we have in total?
John, how many routes are there? There are 155 de-seg. routes.
Do we have an idea as to how many routes out of that 155 are problem routes?
In '97 and '98, out of the routes, there were 14 that were -- that accounted for 77 percent of the behavioral referrals. So, in effect, 14 during '97-'98, and 12 during '98-'99.
Why are there not bus attendants on at least those 14 routes?
Primarily because, at this point, we don't see a connection between the presence or absence of bus attendants and those incidents. 3079 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 We had -- if we go back further, we also had routes that accounted for 70, 75, 80 percent. So it does not appear that the variable in these matters is the bus attendant. The variable -- it goes back to the question, I think, that Councilwoman Blackwell asked. Sometimes it's the treatment of the kids. It may well be, I don't know the real facts, I only know the Daily News facts around those particular incidents. But it may well be that an assistant principal, for discipline, didn't respond correctly, or they let people go too long, but it's not -- there's no cause-effect relationship that we determined between those things.
Let me disagree. If we stipulate for the sake of argument that at least one or two of these issues in the story are, in fact, accurate, would not a bus attendant have been useful in keeping a young person from grabbing a steering wheel or from hanging out a window or from jumping out the emergency door? Maybe not from urinating in the aisle, because I don't know to what extent the attendant is expected to do certain duties. 3080 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 But would there not have been a safer condition for that poor bus driver trying to negotiate and navigate streets with 20, 30 children in his care or her care, without having another adult there to physically be able to restrain people who are acting out in this aberrant manner?
Well, I think it's got to be the case that if there were another adult in some of those instances, that the events might well have ceased earlier than it did. Drivers are, for example, when incidents take place like some of those, they're instructed to stop the bus, and they deal with 'em, and so the kid gets back in from the window or the kid -- whatever. One of the other things that I looked at, because the issue of safety was raised with respect to the buses themselves, was what's been the safety record over the last several years? And the fact is that in '95-'96, the last year that we had attendants on all of those routes, we had 156 accidents; the next year, when we had partial removal of attendants, we had 122; the next year, we had 117; and this year, we've had 3081 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 only 38.
So I guess the bus attendants were causing the accidents.
Well, no -- what I'm -- I wouldn't draw that conclusion. It doesn't seem quite right to me that --
Well, it sounds like you're moving toward that conclusion.
No, what I'm moving toward is the fact that all of the connections that some people are making between bus attendants and great tragedies and accidents and incidents is a connection that simply doesn't hold up.
Well, I would argue -- again, stipulating to the accuracy of this story, and I see no reason why this young lady from Juniata Park would lie about what her experiences are every more than. For me, it is a basic requirement of any business -- whether it's SEPTA, whether it's the school system, whether it's any business -- to make their customers and clientele safe. And not only safe bus accidents, but safe from degradation and safe from sexual exposure and safe from foul, 3082 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 obscene language, and safe from all those issues.
Because, you know, it's not just the bus crashing into a car that's the danger; it's what these children are exposed to and experiencing every single day; and more importantly, what their parents have to make a decision to do about that, and that is perhaps leave the system or leave this city. And I go back to SEPTA's issue. A number of years ago, SEPTA had a horrendous reputation for unsafe subways, unsafe buses -- and it's not perfect yet, but they made a concerted effort to change that image. And from what I understand from your testimony, you're not necessarily aware of a lot of what's going on on these buses because as a result of a question where Councilwoman Blackwell talked about a tape that was available, I mean, should not this not be a primary issue on the agenda of the Superintendent of the School Board as to what's going on on these buses every day?
Absolutely, but not an individual case that somebody brings up on a piece 3083 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 of paper at a time when I have no foreknowledge of that particular one.
And I respect that. I just go back, I guess -- and this is a comment. The things that we raise in here, the things that we argue about, that we discuss, in my mind, are some of the absolute basic issues relative to running a school system or relative to running any business.
And if we can't deal with them, then I don't know -- you know, at the top end, we're spending money on training teachers to give the SAT-9 test, or we're hiring post-secondary readiness coordinators. We're doing lots of things on the Cadillac end. But on the basic end, down at the bottom, we seem to be ignoring some of the basic issues.
Well, I respectfully course, of course, disagree with you about that, and I tend to think something that is basic that we have not spent much time talking about in the School District is the 103,000 kids in the 145 schools read better and do math better and do 3084 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 science better. And I tend to think that the primary obligation of a school district is to have kids read and do math better and do science better, and you can't get more basic than that, in my judgment. And we've done a heck of a good job. I would put us up against any school district in American on that front, and I wish we would spend more time talking about reading, writing, and arithmetic and the record of teachers and kids and parents principals on that front. The one thing that will keep people in this city, which is something -- an objective that both you and I share, is a perception and the reality that the schools are doing better with their kids. And the proof is in the pudding in the final example. Now, we can dance around the edges of things, but in the final analysis, basic is reading, and that is where my focus is. But I do think that it's important, as we are able to, to track both the incidents and the accidents, and I was happy to see the accidents going down at a time when we have diverted $4 million a year into things that I 3085 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 think have not affected the basic safety of children but has enhanced the opportunity of schools to teach kids to read, by shifting money from what in effect is administration to instruction.
Well, we could -- and I'm not going to do this today because I promised that we were going to vote these bills out of committee and I was not going to get into this continuing argument, but we will disagree on the way in which we judge the improvement of our school system, because I think it's generally based on a standardized test that, it could be argued either way, really doesn't judge much. I like to make judgments on kids going to college, kids getting work, how long people stay in the system, and how they perform. I think the emphasis on this particular SAT-9 test, I think, is misguided, and I do believe that we are spending an awful lot of money and an awful lot of effort to convince both teachers and the public at large that this is somehow the be-all and end-all of judgments when it comes to the performance of our schools. And I will respectfully disagree 3086 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 with you that I don't think that that's necessarily the way to go. But, again, the frustration that I have is that other than voting these particular three bills up or down -- which I'll never vote them down, that would be irresponsible, so the only option we have is to have these kinds of discussions from time to time. And whether they're any good or not remains to be seen.
I really wish that somehow -- and I don't know how to do it that -- I don't think we look just at the SAT-9. For example, in the first accountability cycle, we increased the percentage of high school kids graduating on time by 4 percent. That's a 10 percent increase. That means that they're ready to go to work and go to college. We went and looked at the State test, same trend lines. We went and appointed a national panel of experts. All the people that have these questions, we keep doing everything they say to go do, and each one of them comes out saying not only is it appropriate but it's in a national leadership role. And I don't know what 3087 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 to do other than to respond to everybody's concerns in that way.
Superintendent, you mentioned about basics -- reading, writing, and arithmetic. When I first got here to City Council over three years ago the first time in this room 12 with the School District, we were discussing books; the second year, we were discussing books; and again, this year, we're discussing books. With all due respect, if we can't fix that problem and we're still discussing it -- you just referred to your concern of reading, writing and arithmetic. We really -- it's tough to even discuss some of these other subjects and have these discussions. Hopefully, this will be the last time for a long time that we will ever have to discuss the subjects of the very most basic requirements in a school system. My question: Part of the problem that I see is the way things are packaged and 3088 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 presented. Could you please describe to me how the School District of Philadelphia communicated to the parents, the teachers, the drivers of our school buses, when you pulled the attendants from the buses.
This was three years ago, and I -- we can go back and look at what was done. I done -- can't tell you -- no, I can't tell you the answer. It would be in a memo of three years ago.
We didn't inform them today; we informed them -- started taking attendants off three years ago.
Well, I think that's something you should know. If you're going to take bus attendants from school buses, something that important, and you're not familiar with how that process occurred? I mean, I think I'd remember. 3089 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28
We made a decision three years ago because the evidence was that it did not -- and the evidence since then has demonstrated that it doesn't -- affect the accident rate and it doesn't affect materially the incident rate, and it permits us to put millions more into books and computers and reading teachers and those things. We made the decision, an administrative decision we make all the time. Now, what precisely we said in a memorandum to parents, I just don't know.
Oh, I thought you asked 3090 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 how it was communicated to parents.
I did; I asked both -- how it was made and how it was communicated.
I don't remember precisely how it was communicated to parents, but the decision to take the attendants off was a decision that the Board participated in. Let me go back again where to it came from. There has legitimately been a concern in this Council and otherwise about how much money we spend in the classroom and on instruction and how much we spend on other things. And so one of the first things that I did when I came was to ask the Greater Philadelphia First Committee to identify areas of savings that we could take in non-instructional areas so that we could shift that money over. And one of those recommendations had to do with attendants. And so we were, you know, in a sense, skeptical -- for all the reasons that these questions get raised, and that's why we went to do what's frequently done in industry and, in effect, benchmark our practice against other big cities, against what other people do, what's the impact of 3091 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 it. And what we discovered, much to our surprise, was that we were the only school system that was using attendants on non-special education routes. And so we started down that path, with the result that we have, but the Board was a part of taking those several decisions related to all of the cost savings, including attendants.
You just referenced the Philadelphia First study of the non- instructional areas.
Well, banks are great at non-instructional things; they're not real good at reading, and so the first focus was on giving us advice on how to improve our corporate practices.
So you wouldn't -- you don't have any confidence in Philadelphia First's ability to review the educational arm of the --
I yield to 3092 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 Councilman Kenney.
I think it's absolutely absurd to expect that Dick Smoot (ph.) is going to go into that school and do an audit about instructional issues, but they do have the ability to hire a firm of consultants, of experts to do the instructional audit. That's, I guess -- I'm hoping that that's the question.
If we have so much faith in the Greater Philadelphia First to do a good job in exposing waste in the non- instructional area, why don't we have the same amount of faith in them to hire some national experts, some academic think tank to come in and look at the instructional areas at the same time? Why did we avoid that particular area?
Well, primarily because, as I just said -- I don't know how to say it more clearly -- I don't have confidence particularly in Greater Philadelphia First to even know who to hire in the process. And I'm struck that -- this 3093 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 is an issue that, in fact, we've been discussing.
One of the reasons we focussed there is because that was the area of scrutiny and interest, those were the questions, and they were the areas of question until it was revealed that that's not the way that we solve the financial problem. Now people want to go find some other area in that --
Well, if everything's being conducted appropriately and you're doing your best and you're confident that anybody who would look you -- just said in the last round of question that anybody who wanted to look at this would say that things are going well. Why not allow -- I mean, I'm sure there's got to be some Harvard-based, some organization somewhere that we could at least agree on that you have confidence in, that would look at this whole entire instructional issue and could maybe come up with some savings there.
Well, I don't object to that, Councilman. It sounds a little bit like the 3094 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 national panel that I think you and others were enthusiastic about on the testing front. They've now said that our testing process is not only satisfactory but terrific, but you still have questions about it. I don't mind Greater Philadelphia First coming in and doing this.
Superintendent, I would hope that the Greater Philadelphia First organization would take a look at that process, would be the school administration, to be able to -- first of all, it amazes me -- I appreciate Philadelphia First looking at the non-educational, but you have a lot of professional people there. And I know that it's always good to have someone in with a fresh point of view, but you would hope that if there's problems within the educational process that you've identify those. And I know that they're difficult to solve. But I'd like to get back to my question about the school bus attendants. Three years ago, the decision was made. At the time, did you communicate to anyone that you were achieving zero 3095 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 attendants on these buses? In other words, three years ago, was there ever a communication that your goal was to have no attendants at all?
(Confers with staff.) The communication from Central Office went to the principals on that, telling them each successive year what was going to happen in the year subsequent. And that was the communication.
There was a three-year plan that was adopted in the initial instance that if it worked out in the first year and in the second year, that we would keep going down that line, and that's where we've gotten to as we looked to September.
And the only people that were in the loop on that discussions were the principals, and that really never got out to 3096 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 parents' groups? Or the first to surface it was a media report publicly, when it went to the point that it did this year?
I just don't remember back three years. I'm sorry, Councilman.
Okay, if you don't remember, you don't remember. But to me, this is, obviously, one of the more controversial things that has occurred in recent months, and I would think that that would be something that we would have recollection on. But since you don't, you don't. I thank you very much, Madam President.
You're welcome. The Chair recognizes Councilwoman Miller.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Dr. Hornbeck, I have a couple questions too around instructional materials, and I also have an opinion that I'd just like to express regarding school safety and the bus attendants. When the principals reported that they 3097 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 had books or instructional materials, I'd like to know as a part of the report that you'll be submitting, whether those are old materials or new materials. 'Cause that's key. And, you know, I have a daughter in public school, and a couple times when people said they didn't have books, I talked to her about books and talked to her teachers, and yes, they did have books, but they were old books. They had not ordered books in maybe ten years or what not. So I'd like to know, of the materials that they have, are they up to date or are they old? And is it a problem getting books? 'Cause when I read the report, a lot of the schools reported that the books had been on order, they had been ordered. What is the average length of time it takes from an order to actually securing the books?
Well, you know, there's not a -- there's not a -- I mean, there's obviously an average because all you do is add it up and divide it. But there is not a normal time -- let me put it that way -- that you can say 3098 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 across the board. What I've discovered as we've gotten deeper and deeper in this is that weeks -- and in some instances, even months -- can pass and that we are not given priority. I mean, I said to staff, you know, if I go to Borders and order a book, they can have it to me the next day if they can get it from another store, or I can have it within ten days if they've got to order it. But states, for example, like Florida and Texas and California end up with priority on shipping from textbook publishers because they are what are referred to as "textbook adoption states," and so they buy them, in effect, for the whole state. They, in fact, determine the context of textbooks because they can control so much of the marketplace. And one of the things that I've asked this task force that I've been referring to to do is to have conversations with some of these publishers about the shipping schedule. Because while we may not be Texas or California or Florida, we're something bigger than a bread box too, and we ought to be in position to have those 3099 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 kinds of shipments take place in a more orderly fashion so that people ought to be able to either expect books within whatever -- two weeks, three weeks, a month -- or to know when it is going be and then be able to have our policies for ordering books back it up so that we, in fact, have books available in a timely fashion. The last thing on this point that speaks to timeliness is also another issue that the task force will be looking, and that is how many more books than you absolutely need should you order of each group. Should you do a 5 percent overage or a 10 percent overage? So that if a kid does, legitimately or illegitimately, lose his book, he's not necessarily without a book for some long period of time, until some textbook publisher provides it to him.
Okay. What is the average life of the textbook -- not in terms of children's ability, whether they turn them back in or keep them in good conditions, but just in terms of the content, the curriculum content and the use in the classroom? 3100 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28
Well, it will be different for different subject areas. I mean, English literature, in one sense, lasts forever because the biggest bulk of it is classic. In an algebra book, again, algebra is algebra is algebra. In a science book, you would have more knowledge developing. And in things like 4th grade science kits, where you actually have consumables in there, it would be a year-to-year kind of thing. So it depends on the subject matter and on the grade level as to the life expectancy.
Okay. Is there a set time limit that the School Board would actually use an old book or a old version or a five- or ten-year-old version of a book? Is there a period of time where teachers or staff are instructed not to use particular books, that they should have ordered the newer version of that book?