Well, it used to be the case that teachers, schools kept books forever.
Forever. 3101 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28
Because there wasn't serious allocation of book money. But with, again, Council's leadership and our own over these last four years, that's changed significantly. So with an increase in the allocation for books, that's much less a problem.
Okay. Who monitors -- I know you -- this is in regards to accountability. I know that you're having a new system put in place, but if I was the classroom teacher or a principal and my school needed books, who else would know that besides that principal? Would the cluster leader know that? Right now, in the old policy.
If there were a problem with it, the cluster leader might know. Or if, for some reason, something gave rise to a shortage in money, the cluster leader might know. But if it were a routine kind of thing, the principal would be the moving party in that.
'Cause in reading your report, there was one high school in particular, I think, that did not have books in at least four of the major subject areas, and I just 3102 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 wondered to myself, How could that happen? I mean, it --
Well, it really arises out of this historic policy of each school, in a sense, setting its own policy and that's what --
Right. And it was for grades from through 12, so it was almost 9 like, Well, nobody has any books.
Yeah, that's a piece of it, it's an example of a reason that we need the system-wide policy that we were referring to earlier.
Okay. So all those individuals that reported that they did not have books, do they have them now, do you know?
I don't think all of them do at this point. But in every instance, there's action that's been taken to solve the problem.
Okay. I just now want to move the to area of school safety. You know, the instructional and learning outcomes are what parents want for children. School safety, of course, is a number-one issue in Philadelphia 3103 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 public schools and in all schools. Parents want to know that when their children leave their house in the morning, that they're going to travel to school safe. And, you know, communities help by putting together safe corridors, and the Police Department helps by having crossing guards and other police personnel. And once child gets on a school bus -- my daughter rode a school bus for eight years -- half of the time with an attendant, and toward the end, without an attendant. Her principal -- Mr. Crumley (ph.), you remember him from Fitler? He was like a sergeant in the army and he thought his children were his platoon but Crumley felt that his kids did not need bus attendants. But when the new principal came, she decided to do bus attendants. So doesn't the bus attendant stay at the school and provide assistance inside the school during the day?
That was the case in many, many instances when there were bus attendants, yes.
Well, I'm not 3104 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 really that up to date on how much -- on what type of personnel you have in the schools anymore. I know there was a time when some schools lost classroom aides and stuff like that. It would seem to me that having a bus attendant fill in, help out during the day in a particular school would be very helpful and very useful to that particular school. I don't know if a school like Fitler where the total school is de-seg., there are very few children in the school that walk to school. But I would support -- I would support and I would say that it's money well spent when it deals with children's safety. And I would support the call to ask the School District to reexamine its decision and keep the bus attendants on the schools. I want to ask you, though, what happens to children that need to be disciplinary, particularly if they go to one of the de-seg. programs more than an hour or so away? Are those children at some point just told that they are no 24 longer allowed to ride the bus? And if that happens and if their school is an hour and a half 3105 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 away, what happens; do they transfer back to the neighborhood school or just what?
That certainly could be a sort of a bottom-line, final solution. But before you would get there, a step short of that would be being suspended from the yellow bus but being given a token for riding SEPTA.
Mm-hmm. Well, I don't know that the tokens help. I mean, some of the behavior that's in this article is just outrageous, and I don't even know whether a bus attendant would help in some of these cases 'cause to me, they're very extreme. But I believe that school safety is an issue. I have found the attendant very helpful. I've talked to the them if I went to visit my daughter's school, and I think most parents would support the call to keep the bus attendants on the bus. I don't have any more questions right now, Madam President.
Thank you. The Chair recognizes Councilman Cohen.
/990026, 27, 28 Chair. I think the School District is doing a very fine job in the instructional area. I think we're making a lot of progress. At the same time, I have difficulty in understanding why, in other areas, you seem not concerned. For example, I'm sure you are concerned, but I mean concerned to the same extent the parent is. There are always basic things. There are the long-range goals of having test results which show great improvement, which show promise that when kids graduate, they really have gotten the kind of education they ought to get. And I think in that direction, there's been enormous progress in Philadelphia. But there are also other factors like safety, safety in the buses, safety in the schools. It seems to me that you have to pay a lot of attention to the most basic issues that are separated from the kind of long-range, really important things that are written about in magazines about how school systems successfully operate. /990026, 27, 28 safety. Parents are worried when the kids go on buses and they hear reports or see stories like this. I think it's unrealistic to expect in a long bus ride that kids are all going to be well-behaved because we really want the attention of the drive on the road, not on how the kids are behaving. I just wish I could feel that the whole School District really took this seriously and felt that maybe in theory, we ought not to have attendants. You know, maybe kids ought to all be so well-behaved and so responsible that there would be no need for them, but it seems to me that as a parent, parents legitimately are very concerned about the safety of their kids on the way to school, on the way back. I got a letter very recently from a neighbor, two long pages, a very eloquent letter of a neighbor who's a grandparent of a child at Roosevelt Middle School in Mt. Airy, talking about the question of safety in the school building. There have been a number of incidents there. I've begun inquiries there. /990026, 27, 28 additional attendant in the schools, then the principal's going to have to divert money from other purposes in the budget. And that seems to me not a good approach. I just think that on the very little unglamorous issues, on the nuts-and-bolts issues, there's got to be much more of a hand-on approach. I think the concept of driving buses without attendants is not a good concept -- even if every other city in the country did it. I don't find that as a measure of success because we're dealing with Philadelphia's problems. Philadelphia crime and safety are very important issues, and I think they've got to be dealt with as thoroughly as the instructional issues and the ability of kids to do math and read and so forth. So I'd like to urge you to really personally get involved and not just have staff do it. /990026, 27, 28 importance of charter school is the involvement of parents. And I know parents that send their kids to charter schools are usually parents who are already very much interested in school problems, so it's natural that there's that deep involvement. But I sent you a letter suggesting a much deeper involvement, and I get back what obviously was intended not to look like one, but it was a form letter outlining four general things in which the School District takes great pride and certain advances in so-called parent involvement. But I was taking about real parents' involvement. I was talking about -- you know, people write whose kids go to the school, getting involved in issues not just in sales of candy or raising money for curtains. I'm troubled by the fact that there are parents that believe that all they're wanted for in the public schools, as far as involvement is concerned, is to raise money, but to stay far away from basic issues. In the charter schools, they seem to involve parents in basic issues. /990026, 27, 28 bolts. You know, it's great that you're working in the upper areas.
I'm delighted by what appears to be the educational progress, but I think we've got to be able to have a situation in which the parents are comfortable with their kids' safety going and coming and in the school system. And if, say, at Roosevelt School, there seems to be some problems, I don't think the burden ought to be just on the principal to take money away from something else. I think the School District ought to look at the whole thing. Maybe one solution is to give that school an extra attendant in the hallways. I don't know what the precise problem is and I'm not trying to substitute for the ultimate judgment of the School District. But I would feel better if I felt that the top -- let's call it the "top brass" in the School District were really involved in the very basic things that parents worry about. From the moment the kid leaves the house that morning, they're worried about school safety. /990026, 27, 28 were removed. I think at the current time, it would be very important to do everything we could to make people feel much more comfortable, the parents. And I think you do it in the safety issues by not appearing to want to get rid of the attendants but seeing that every bus -- I think every bus probably ought to have an attendant. And if there's a financial problem, I think I ought to be presented frankly so we could deal with that, and I don't think the answer would lie in taking away from instructional to provide bus attendants, but maybe it means that the 15 million that the City adds to the regular budget appropriation, maybe that should be 20 million. I've never understood where that 15 million came from. I assume it's some magical number that some brains unidentified, you know, discovered that 15 million what was needed, because we've never discussed it in City Council. I've personally been afraid to raise the issue for fear we might lose it, but I don't know where that 15 million comes from. /990026, 27, 28 kinds of issues we're raising. So I would hope on out of all of these issues, like I think there's a common thread between Councilman Kenney and you, and I don't know why you ought to be quarreling. I think he ought to recognize of the School District, and I think you ought to recognize the issues he raises as being issues that a lot of parents are being concerned about. Now, just having said that, they're comment; they're really not questions. The one question I have is about the magnet school at the Northeast High School. I was there, did not participate in the discussion but listened intently. I'm interested in general and interested as a 1931 graduate of Northeast High School, when it was at Eighth and Lehigh. I may be the oldest living graduate of Northeast High School who will admit to having gone to Northeast High School, I don't know. But can that matter be resolved? I was delighted that Councilman Nutter seems to be fully informed about that. He's cochairman of some committee. /990026, 27, 28 But I think it would be so good for the public school system to not have not have parents like those I viewed that night at Northeast High School feeling that what they've worked for so hard and for so long is being threatened by the School District.
It's very much my hope that in the foreseeable future, that through good-faith conversations among a lot of people that, in fact, we will find a resolution to the set of issues that have been raised at Northeast that respond to what are a number of legitimate interests that superficially appear to be in conflict with each other, but I don't think are. I think that the program is a really fine program. There has been from time to time some suggestion that while the changes in School District policy were in part in response to kids that have been excluded from participation, those comments, quite frankly, do not pertain, for example, around issues of race to Northeast High School. Mr. Matterazza (ph.), the principal, the parents, they've all worked very hard to have a very diverse program there. 3114 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 So that I think a lot of people are operating in good faith, and I think that we have a very high degree of likelihood that we'll be able to come to a satisfactory conclusion on that because nobody wants that program to maintain its high standards more than I.
Very good. And I just urge time. I think it would be good to put that problem to rest as quickly as possible.
You're welcome. The Chair recognizes Councilman Nutter.
Thank you, Madam Chair. I will be brief. Dr. Hornbeck, to go back to some of the earlier discussion. While I, at the time, disagreed with the recommendation and the decision to remove the bus attendants from the buses, that was a decision that is within the discretion of the School District. You made the decision, you thought you made it for the right reason, and 3115 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 you've come to explain that there's no data that indicates that one way or the other it seems to impair the safety of the children. That's your view, that was your judgment at the time. We have a difference of opinion about that, but we differ on a number of things and we agree on a number of things. Is it also true, though, that that decision was at least in part influenced by the recommendations of the, I guess, the GPF group that made a wide variety of recommendations for how to save money in the school system. That was one you took, there may be others that you didn't take, and so you find yourself, I guess, in a situation of trying to respond to one group's good-faith recommendations on how to save money for a district that is in a fairly serious fiscal crisis balanced with some public safety issues and some analysis that it may or may not make a difference. If there's a body on the bus and then you've tried to, I guess, kind of be somewhere in the middle by putting cameras on some and the appearance of a camera on the others. I think 3116 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 Councilman DiCicco has taken you down the path about putting more cameras on buses. And maybe that is something that you should continue to pursue. Having said all of that, aren't there other recommendations that you received either from GPF or other outside groups to save money that you have rejected? For instance, didn't someone recommend that you stop providing either nursing services or some health-care services because we would get volunteer contributions from either hospitals or something along those lines?
Yes. There was a recommendation in an overview that we could reduce our cost by $70 million over the next 5 years for student health services by, in effect, looking to providers to give us those services free, is the way I think of it.
And you essentially rejected that because you didn't think it was plausible, and you didn't want to jeopardize the health and safety of the students.
Now, three years 3117 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 ago, when the bus attendant decision was made, I believe my recollection is that that was disclosed publicly, and it may have here through the budget process. Is that accurate or inaccurate?
That's correct. We informed the principals, the budget process itself -- in fact, I think, in City Council hearings at the time, we had that discussion. We've had that discussion each year here. It was also a part of the discussions that I and leaders of GPF had with editorial boards at newspapers. I mean, it was a widely known phenomenon in that sense.
So it's not something that's now come out of the clear blue sky, three years later.
No. And when I was saying while ago that I couldn't remember the communication, the only thing that I can't remember is what the exact wording was of some memorandum that may have gone to parent themselves, but it was very widely known and debated because there are these legitimate questions that are raised. 3118 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28
And we've tried to pursue those. But yes, in many, many forums, it's been a major issue.
It may be helpful if you could provide to the Chair, if you would go back to when this idea originated, if you have copies either of your testimony back from that time. I'd be interested to know what the discussion was here in the chamber, what members would have heard or not heard back at that time. Because, I mean, just if somebody tells you something three years ago, you can't act like you're hearing it for the first time three years later. The last thing is. . . on the issue of GPF and what they've done or not done, have you asked them to take a look at the non-instructional areas, or did they offer -- I'm sorry.
Did you ask them to look at the instructional areas, or did they express an interest in only looking at the non-instructional areas? And if they did ask to 3119 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 look at the instructional areas, what did you do about it? And if they only expressed an interest in looking at the non-instructional, why was that?
In the initial instance four years ago when I first came, the only area that they were interested in or that I asked them about pursuing -- the prototype that the Mayor had used as he came into -- I mean, I took it directly from that -- were the non-instructional activities, not the substantive things; in the same way that the Mayor didn't ask experts on policing to come and do policing or garbage collection on garbage collection or social services, but did effectively ask in effect, corporate-practice-wise. I did the same thing. In the last year -- now, in the last six months, there has been some conversation as we have in effect now, at the end of three years, saved more money than they originally suggested that we could save. And as we have begun to take steps to change the culture, the way of thinking at the School District to one of stewardship, we have had a discussion with the Management and 3120 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 Productivity Task Force around the issue of what would it mean if we looked at the instructional practices? Is there a perspective that GPF might bring to that, either themselves or through, as Councilman Kenney suggested, hiring somebody that would be useful. And we frankly haven't come to a conclusion, acknowledging at the same time that it is not as though the instructional practice is not under a very high degree of scrutiny through the several-million-dollar evaluation process that has been set up at the University of Pennsylvania by a group called CPRE there. It's the Consortium of "something, something, something" -- I don't remember.
I know, read about it in the paper. So you're not opposed to them looking at it.
It didn't start out that way. It started one way, and if they want to or if somebody else wants to, you'd be pleased to have them, but it just didn't happen so far, but 3121 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 you're under discussions about it.
We have been -- I don't think there's been any school district in the history of the world that has been more open than we have in the last four years. I mean, we've got 33 audits done, we got CPRE evaluating us, we've got Columbia University evaluating us. I mean --
Okay. That's all I want to know. Thank you. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you. At this point in time, I would ask all Councilmembers who are listening to the testimony to please come to the chamber. I believe we have -- are there any other questions from members of the committee? (No further questions at this time.)
Thank you, Madam President. 3122 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28
Do we have anyone else to testify after Mr. Garner? (Oscar Rosario raises hand.)
If you'll please approach the table, the witness table. Good morning. Please identify yourself for the record and proceed with your testimony.
Thank you. Good morning, Madam President. My name is a Francis Garner. That's G-A-R-N-E-R. I'm a bus driver with the School District of Philadelphia. I work out of the Passyunk Avenue garage. May I stand for a moment, please?
I would like everyone here to, please, take a look. I've been 22 years with the --
Excuse me, 3123 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 you're going to have to use the microphone only because the stenographer cannot hear you. You can stand to make your presentation and hold the microphone -- that's entirely up to you.
I just wanted you to take a look. This is the way I drive my school bus every day, and I catch hell. Okay? (Mr. Garner is dressed professionally in a school bus driver's uniform.)
Because of some of the children on your de-seg. and on your so-called special ed. runs. When I first started two years ago, I had a special -- excuse me, I had a de-seg. run in the Northeast. This sheet here is a list -- this is from the School District -- of the procedures we have to go through before we can do certain things with the children. It's 16 steps here that we have to go through with children before we can actually do certain things with the children, disciplinary action with these children. 3124 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28
Do you mind if we make photostatic copies of that so that every member will have it?
Yes, ma'am. I'm here and I'm crying for help for bus attendants and aides. Without using any names, in January of this year, on one of our buses out of the Passyunk yard, the children graffitied the inside of the bus, pulled the window down, sat outside the window, wrote along the side of the bus -- this was while the operator is operating the bus. They tore up three to four seats down to the metal frame. All this was done while the driver was riding this bus. There was no bus attendant or no aide on board. Another incident. One of my coworkers was fired. He was accused of verbal sexual harassment of some middle-school girls. Their word against his. Again, no bus aide, no bus attendant. If one of those would have been on board, it's my opinion that they would have said no, this didn't happen. /990026, 27, 28 happened. I wasn't there, see, and this is the problem -- it's their word against his. Even with some of the de-seg. -- excuse me, some of the special ed. runs, there are times when there is not a bus attendant or aide on board. The garage will still send you out that way. It happened to me. I have students that will bang their heads. I have students that are subject to fits, seizures. And sometimes we are sent out this way. I am telling you that bus attendants are needed on these buses. I also have papers here where I have been attacked. I have copies here. Where I have been attacked on the bus, causing me to bring the bus to an abrupt stop. Again, this is not hearsay; this is official. I've been lied on. And this is something I want Mr. Hornbeck and everybody here to understand. If a student -- be it male or female -- makes an accusation against a driver, that driver is now under the microscope. He or she is subject to disciplinary action soley on the words of these students. Here we go again. /990026, 27, 28 can say yea or nay to what this student is saying. Earlier Mr. Hornbeck had said that he received information late. It is my opinion -- these are pink slips, what we call "pink slips," the bus referrals for misbehavior on the bus. If the principals and the other school staff would do their jobs and forward these things, to Mr. Hornbeck, he would know about it. Too much stuff is kept in-house, as I call it. They want to keep it undercover as if everything is going along smoothly, and it's not so. There's a lot that goes on that needs to be known about I do not know why principals just -- they just want to keep things -- I don't if it makes them look bad because they have a number of disruptive students coming out of their school, but it is a very serious matter. Yesterday, I had a student -- now, this happened yesterday, although it happened in school, but we as drivers get the spill-over. A student stabbed another with scissors, pulled the young lady's pants down, and I have it right here. It's not my say-so, it's the actual suspension note from the school. /990026, 27, 28 but this is the actual suspension note. And the student hit the teacher. Again, these are spill-overs. A lot of this, I'm sure, does not get back to Mr. Hornbeck, but this is something that goes on and on. And almost every driver in the School District can give you some insight, some incident that has happened with him or her. I'm telling you, the aides are really needed. And again, I was lied on. I think you have a copy of that. A student lied on me about having -- I think there's a copy on your desks. The student lied on me about turning in a doctor's slip. The student was supposed to be back in school -- not be back in school unless he had his doctor's slip. When the student boarded my bus, I was told I had take this student to school even though he didn't have a note. When the student arrived at school, they asked him where the note was. He said, "I gave it to Mr. " That afternoon when I returned to school, the school was up and down my back -- why did I not give this note to the proper authorities. /990026, 27, 28 out the student had lied.
Even his grandmother had lied 'cause they all said that this note was supposed to have been available. Again, we are like stepchildren, we drivers. I'm telling you, this is not a joke. I don't know how much more I can strongly say this to make it clear. And what scares me so badly is that anything a student says -- and especially when they tell it to their parent and they bring it to the school -- is going to be followed through. Now I'm accused, and my reputation is ruined. Even if it's clear that once it hits the paper, then the retraction is going to be a half-inch big. And it's just a mess. I have one more thing to say, then I will --
Excuse me before you go any further, Mr. Garner.
You spoke about the incident that occurred yesterday.
And I am just reading the report. You mean to tell me a child 3129 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 gets one day of suspension for stabbing another child with a scissor and pulling a girl's pants down?
Yes, ma'am. And that's official, that's from the school. That's nothing I made up. That was my copy of --
Well, wouldn't this child have to go before the School Board? Or what action is normally taken?
I wouldn't want anybody to think that a child just receives one day's suspension for doing something like that. I would think that that child would have to have some kind of action taken against him.
Excuse me, Madam Chair. I guess we've heard an assumption or a belief that the fact that there are, in fact, 3130 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 alleged scissors involved here, I believe that would be --
-- classified as a weapon and subject to Act 26. I think that's the correct terminology, which is a disciplinary procedure.
I wouldn't want anybody to think that for something like this, the child receives just one day's suspension. Miss Ingram, can we get a report from -- oh, I'm sorry, Dr. Hornbeck, I didn't see you there. Can we get a report on what happens in this case, please.
Councilman Nutter is correct, it is Act 26. And when there's a weapon in the school, it is --
That's what I wanted to bring to the floor. I didn't want 3131 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 anybody to think that it's a one-day suspension.
Yes, the Chair recognizes Councilwoman Blackwell.
Thank you. In an incident like this, Mr. Garner also says that he thinks that the student also hit a teacher. In an incident where there's a severe problem with school violence at the school, does not the parent come? Does that kid automatically get the bus? Or what happens, does a child just go on like business as usual on a bus, with a lot of other students? That's a serious issue.
If I may. According to the suspension notice, the child was suspended today. This incident happened yesterday. He is suspended today. According to the notice, he is to come to school Wednesday with his parent. What's going to happen after that, we don't know. And I don't know if it's going to 3132 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 continue after that or what but right --
So if the child is suspended, then they serve out the rest of the school day, go back home on the bus, and then bring the parent to school the next day. Well, do they say anything to you? Do you know that that child is suspended?
Yes, that's why I had a copy. They gave me a copy because I just cannot tell a child, "You cannot board my bus" without authorization from the school, that's what that letter was for. And so I had a copy of the letter letting me know that that child was not to ride on my bus today. I had to take him home yesterday, but he was not to ride today. He's to come to school tomorrow with his parent. Now, what's going to happen after that if he's suspended any longer, I will then be issued another note telling me that it's been extended.
On the day of the occurrence, the day the child had the scissors and all this happened, did the child go home with you on the bus? 3133 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28
Did you know then -- did they give you a note or did they let you know somehow that that child had had a problem that day? Because it seems to me, that could be a bus incident report because the child is angry because of something that happened at school.
Well, yes, and you're exactly right. We do get a lot of spill-over, you're exactly right. But yes, yesterday afternoon, his teacher came out, gave me a note to make sure I -- they wouldn't give it to him and made sure they gave it to me so I could get it to parent. And she gave me a copy. She said this is because he's suspended, and he's not allowed back on your bus until he is brought to school and this has been resolved.
In your experience, do you have problems with students like this who are angry because of whatever happened at school and get on the school bus that afternoon and then have outbreaks? 3134 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28
It has happened, yes. Without a doubt, it has happened. And sometimes things come from home, where they get on a bus angry from things that come from home. And they figure they can't act out against the parent, so they act out on the school bus.
I'm concerned also, Madam President, about an individual. It's obvious that Mr. Garner is a fine, upstanding person who's committed to his job, and it takes courage to come and speak out when people are around you. But I'm concerned about a person's reputation if they are, in fact, blamed and there's no witness. It seems to me that that's another reason. It seems to me that this whole issue of bus attendants, in the final analysis, may be worth the investment for all of the problems that we have, with all of the reputations at stake, with all of the incidents violent crimes. My goodness, when we had hearings on school violence back in the early '80s -- I don't even remember when we had our first hearings -- we 3135 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 weren't even talking about buses at that point. Now here we're trying to deal with them in schools and in school yards and in neighborhoods, and so the activity has gone to the buses because we've removed the attendants. And it seems to me that we can't be a part of solving a problem if we create another one. And certainly, I would hope that Council would look at it and that the Superintendent would certainly give us, if he hasn't given us, the figures involved. And that we need to consider having bus attendants on buses so that we protect children and certainly the bus drivers. I have even heard of incidents where bus drivers have pulled over, and they've had incidents where -- there was an incident on the news a few months ago, and people thought maybe the bus driver had lost his mind. And I understand there was so much going on on the bus that he could not prove without a witness and that that was the reason for a problem. So I would really, really certainly ask that we have all the figures concerned with what bus attendants cost and what it would cost to have 3136 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 them replaced. And I think the School Board ought to consider the option. It may not be worth -- it may not be worth the alternative of not having bus attendants and school violence and putting people in jeopardy and all of these myriad cases you may have with bus attendants who are working and children on buses. It may be less expensive to just have the attendants back. So I would certainly hope that the Superintendent would provide this information to the President, just how much it costs, and give us some options that you would like to explore so that we may make some obviously intelligent decisions. It's obvious that something is very, very wrong here, and we would like to be a part of the solution -- certainly not a part of this ongoing problem. Thank you, Madam President.
Thank you. The Chair recognizes Councilwoman Miller.
Mr. Garner, I think you reported that your school bus is for 3137 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 special education?
Well, don't you have an attendant? I thought that --
But there are times where if she is out sick, I don't get a replacement. And like I said, I have one child who likes to bang his head, and she sits besides him every day. There's another child that's subject to having seizures. And this is not only me; this is with the whole system, it's with the whole system.
I understand. Was the attendant on your bus yesterday when this kid acted out?
But now don't let me mislead you; this incident happened in school.
Okay. 3138 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28
But we get the spill-over from that. I still have to take this angry child home, and he sits right behind me.
All right, I understand. I mean, I told you, my daughter rode the bus for eight years, so I know all the pluses and minuses and whatnot.
Could we find out from the Superintendent if there is a policy or what they do about sub bus attendants on de-seg. and on special ed. buses? There must be a simple answer to that question. Don't they have substitutes?
And, again, I 3139 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 hate to prolong this, but I still would like to know the difference between an attendant and an aide. I know we asked that question before; I just don't recall the answer. And is THERE a difference in salary?
The answer to the substitute question is that a substitute with a special education student who has an attendant in his IEP is required. I don't doubt -- it's the same way that a teacher in every classroom is required, and sometimes we can't find a substitute and, therefore, the question becomes, shall the kid go to school or not go to school? So I'm not doubting that there are instances in which a child rides the bus without a required aide, but the policy is and the requirement is and the practice is most of the time, there is a substitute aide on the bus. I honestly don't know the difference between an attendant and an aide myself. I tend to associate the word "attendant" with a person who's on the bus and an "aide" with a person who works in the school, but I don't know that that's accurate. 3140 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28
I think we have an answer. (John Lombardi comes forward.)
The bus attendant is a five-hour employee who makes the same hourly rate as a School Aide I, which is the aides that are being referred to this morning -- they're seven-hour employees. So the difference between the two employees is essentially that one is a five-hour and one is a seven-hour employee. They work at the school the difference from the time on the bus route versus the five hours. So if the bus route is a three-hour bus route, an hour and a half each way, then they'll work two hours a day in the school. For a school aide, if it's a three-route, they'll work four hours a day in the school. So that's essentially the difference in between the two. They perform the same functions 3141 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 on the bus, and they're at the principal's discretion in the school.
Madam President, I didn't hear him. He said the off-time, they work in the school.
The time that they're not riding the bus, Councilwoman, then they're working in the school. If they're a seven-hour employee and they're work three hours on the bus, then they're required to work four hours per day in the school.
No, the bus attendant is a five-hour employee; the school aide is a seven-hour employee.
And they serve as like an NTA function in the school?
I'm not sure. The principal has them doing a myriad of things in the school.
Thank you very much. Are there any other questions of Mr. Garner? Or, Mr. Garner, are you complete with your testimony?
Yes, I am. I think I would like to, for the last couple of minutes, turn this over to Mr. Rosario. He's a driver, also.
My name is Oscar Rosario, O-S-C-A-R, R-O-S-A-R-I-O. I work -- I also work for the Passyunk garage, School District of 3143 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 Philadelphia, bus number 336, route 36-37. When I read the articulate that they're going to eliminate the bus attendants, all this going to do is to increase the violence and the misbehavior on the school buses. For instance, look at my bus, 336, they call it "the blue horizon bus." You know what the blue horizon IS right, Councilwoman? Well, they fight -- they fight every day, every day. You see this? (Holding up stack of papers.) I got about 100, 150 write-ups, you know? I need these back, okay? The principal -- the principal has copies of these reports. And everybody knows about what's taking place in my bus. There are videotapes, I give them to the management of Passyunk garage, but nobody gives a damn about the children, no one, because I don't get no 20 responses. I don't have a bus attendant. I asked for a bus attendant; they say, oh, no, that cost too much money. What, $3 million? But management just got a goddamn raise, they just got a 4 percent raise. And they say they don't have the 3144 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 money? Come on now, let's be real. See, I am upset because I do carry childrens (ph.) in my bus, and they going to hold me responsible? I put my bus to the side about four times on a daily basis. So one time, I even called the cops because I have riots in my bus. So they say, Okay, we give me a camera -- a camera? You know what the kids do to the camera? And excuse the expression, they go like this, you know, I mean, they stick the middle finger to the camera. The $3 million that they're going to save to eliminate the bus attendants? Come on, Mr. Hornbeck. Mr. Hornbeck, don't be a part of the problem; be a part of the solution. I'm finished.
Now, I am looking at what you've submitted to us, and I see that this one student was written up at least 13 times?
And you mean to tell me that after 13 write-ups, you don't know what action has been taken? 3145 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28
Well, do you know if any action was taken at all?
I do. By the way, the school is Jenks. Yes, I go there and I say what happened, when can I get my slips? 'cause I'm supposed to get a copy or a response to those copies. Sometimes when I see them missing from my bus, 'cause sometime I see them, they are not coming. I say, What happened to little Johnny? They say, Well, he's been suspended. That's how I find out because the kid tell me himself.
The Chair 3146 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 recognizes Councilwoman Blackwell.
Thank you, Madam President. Can't we have a system that allows for bus attendants on buses, Superintendent Hornbeck, that traditionally show they've had violence? Can't we at least do that much? Maybe in some schools where there's none, abide by this rule, but in instances where there has been violence. Mr. Rosario says he experiences this every day.
It would seem to me that if this is happening three or four times a week that this would be a perfect candidate for a bus attendant. Could you respond to that, Superintendent?
These are the type of issues that are constantly under review. And, clearly, if there is an instance -- and I want to know where this kid was this year with 13 write-ups.
Well, there's more than just one; this one has twelve. I see 3147 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 that there are a number of them that certainly have more than four or five write-ups. This one has fifteen, if you please.
If it's 15, 37, 10, whatever it is, I would like to see them. And I do think, again, that there clearly needs to be something done about children like that. I guess the only -- the only debate is the issue of the attendant, and I don't think there's any evidence that attendants are what makes the difference. And I think that there are clearly lots of places with as many kids, as many drivers, etc., where you don't have that. But that there should be a situation that does not result in a kid with 15 or 20 or even 6 incidents of that kind is absolutely clear.
I believe that one of the youngsters -- Councilwoman, that top one that you have?
I believe that that youngster had three suspensions.
It would seem to me, Madam President, that this might be a good 3148 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 way to secure counseling for a kid. If a kid's fighting on a bus every other day or times, 4 then this child has a problem, and this is one way 5 to -- 6
Absolutely. 9 So somebody ought to take out the time to just 10 find out what's wrong and what kind of help we can 11 try to secure for these children. 12
Certainly, we should pay attention to that. It suggests that we don't do that; in fact, it's not uncommon at all for part of the disciplinary process to be counseling. And, unfortunately, with all the kids, they don't end up "cured" in a sense. And certainly, this remains a series of issues that I expect will be a part of the topic of discussion for the Transportation Committee.
I would request, Madam President, that we receive at least a response to what happens in these cases and from the viewpoint of the bus attendant as well as the student in his or her development, what we're 3149 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 doing about that. If you would get that the to President and she would let us know.
If you wouldn't mind, Madam President, collecting these several things, having staff do that and get them to me, I'll be glad to respond as we did in the past. Thank you.
Don't you have staff here taking notes? Do you have staff here taking notes of what we would like?
Well, I have no idea who these -- we don't know who they are.
Oh, the slips. Well, we don't have the slips either because I think the bus driver said he wants them back.
But she has to give them back to the bus driver.
Well, if somebody will tell us who we're talking about, we'll be glad to respond.
I think the 3150 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 bus driver could certainly share that with you.
Maybe he could make a copy before he leaves, Mr. Rosario.
Does anybody else have any questions or comments of Mr. Rosario?
Actually, my question is going to be for Dr. Hornbeck.
Mr. Hornbeck, is the School District ever sued by any of the students or the parents of the students for incidents that occur on these buses? Does anyone know that?
There certainly has not been one in the last four years in which it was a suit of any sort of serious proportion. There 3151 3/1/99 BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST./990026, 27, 28 might have been some nuisance suit, but there was never one where a judgment was found against us or anything like that.
Okay, so I don't have any further questions. I just was curious if we were paying any awards to people who were suing for whatever. Okay, thank you. No further questions.
Thank you. Any other further questions or comments? (No further questions.)
Thank you. I believe we have a grandmother in the audience who would like to testify. I believe her name is Peggy Mims. Please approach the witness table, Ms. Mims. (Ms. Mims comes forward.)