JOINT COMMITTEE STREETS TRANSPORTATION, October 28, 2025

COUNCIL OF THE CITY OF PHILADELPHIA JOINT COMMITTEE ON STREETS & SERVICES AND COMMITTEE ON TRANSPORTATION & PUBLIC UTILITIES City Hall, Room 400 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania Tuesday, October 28, 2025 10:00 a.m. PRESENT: CHAIR JEFFREY YOUNG, JR. COUNCILMAN MICHAEL DRISCOLL COUNCILMAN JIM HARRITY COUNCILMAN ANTHONY PHILLIPS COUNCILWOMAN QUETCY M. LOZADA MR. PULLEN, The Clerk P R O C E E D I N G S COUNCIL CHAIR YOUNG: Good morning, everyone. We are getting ready to start this morning's hearing. I would like to welcome you all to the joint Committee on Streets and Committee on Transportation and Public Utilities hearing today. Mr. Pullen, would you please call the role?

Councilmember Ahmad. Councilmember Bass. Councilmember Bass.

Present.

Councilmember Brooks. Councilmember Driscoll.

Present.

Councilmember Harrity.

Present.

Councilmember Jones. Councilmember Phillips.

Present.

Councilmember Squilla. Councilmember Young. COUNCIL CHAIR YOUNG: Present. Thank you, Mr. Pullen. Joining us today is the sponsor of the resolution for today's hearing is Councilmember Quetcy Lozada, representing the 7th District. So I note for the record that a quorum of this committee is present, and this hearing is called to Order. This is a public hearing on the committee on the Joint Committee of Streets and Transportation of Public Utilities considering testimony on Resolution 23 250160. Mr. Pullen, would you please read the title of the resolution?

Resolution No. 4 250160 titled authorizing the Committee on Streets and Services and the Committee on Transportation and Public Utilities to hold joint hearings, examining water main breaks and sinkholes occurring in District 7, evaluating the underlying causes of these issues and identifying solutions to prevent and mitigate their frequency. COUNCIL CHAIR YOUNG: Thank you. Before we begin, do any of the members of the committee have any opening remarks on this matter? I see none. Thank you. The chair recognizes Councilmember Quetcy Lozada.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. And good morning, everyone. Thank you for being here this morning. Thank you to those who are going to share their testimony with us. This is an important conversation, I'm sure, across the city of Philadelphia. Today, I'm here to ask questions, shed light to some of the issues that we're experiencing in the 7th Council District as it relates to sinkholes, potholes, cave-ins, whatever you want to call them, right? They are situations that impact community residents in a way that sometimes we as government don't expect, right? We don't know if it's a result of the ongoing development that is happening in neighborhoods. We don't know if it's as a result of old infrastructure. We don't know if it is a result of the way properties were built years ago above streams. But what we do know is that these cave-ins are impacting quality of life, and in some instances causing mold and structural damage to properties in neighborhoods like the 7th Council District. And so we receive on a regular basis, you know, complaints about what to do. Residents tell us they can't afford the additional insurance that sometimes we're required to get to protect our properties. You know, it's no 12 secret that the 7th Council District is among the poorest districts in the city of Philadelphia. So $20 a month for some is not doable for others. And when we experience multiple water main breaks or cave- ins on the block, it causes -- it causes stress, it causes trauma, it causes frustration. And so I am hopeful that in today's conversation, we're able to come up with some recommendations around how we hold contractors accountable, how we as a city take a more proactive approach to the old infrastructure that we know we have in the city, and how we better support and connect residents of the city of Philadelphia to the necessary resources to be able to respond to these situations in their neighborhoods. Thank you so much, Mr. Chair. COUNCIL CHAIR YOUNG: Thank you so much, Councilmember. And just last Friday on 9th Street in my district, which is probably only about two or three blocks from your district, right? There was a water main break where, was it 2-million gallons of water flooded our Philadelphia streets? So you know, that's a concern for residents in the city of Philadelphia and all throughout the city. And so I'm hoping that we can get some of those answers as well today. Chair recognizes Councilmember Anthony Phillips.

Thank you so much, Chair. I appreciate you. And I want to thank Councilwoman Lozada for bringing this to our council chambers. I think it's really important that we have this conversation. You know, just a few weeks ago or maybe a couple weeks ago, I had a conversation about how the Water Department services have not been strong. It's been evident from what I've not only heard from -- about my -- from me. I just thought it was me for a second. And now I know it's a lot of people in our council. I'm starting to realize that the Water Department has a serious service issue. I don't know what it is, but I hope today we get an answer. You know, we -- even after the situation I had with the East Oak Lane Reservoir. The reservoir maintenance, you would think would've been done probably within a few days. They did a little work on it, didn't finish it. You know, I was out there the other day. So just like every -- they just can never finish a product. And I'm really disappointed. I'm really disappointed that this is happening across the city of Philadelphia. Whether or not it's routine maintenance issues, sinkholes, it's something always with the Water Department. And one of the things I'll say, and I'll end here, is that we don't expect perfection from city agencies. We do not expect perfection from city agencies. But we do expect a lot of effort, a lot of effort, and a lot of strong responses, strong follow-up, and we -- and better systems, right? And I think there's a level of -- with the Philadelphia Water Department, there's just a level of apathy, like it is not enough care coming from its leadership, and there's not enough understanding of how serious these issues are. Because if I was a leader in the Water Department, I would be very disheartened by what's happening. But also, I, myself, would've took my coat off and went out there and started doing the work myself, given how bad this department has been to the city of Philadelphia lately. So until I see otherwise changes happen with this department, which I have -- I can't even see from my own neighborhood for a simple landscaping issue, I don't -- I don't have no support for this department at all. Thank you. COUNCIL CHAIR YOUNG: Thank you, Councilmember. Any other remarks on members of the committee? Chair recognizes Councilmember Harrity.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I just want to note that while the Water Department may be responsible for some of this stuff, a lot of it is being done by illegal contractors who are digging up our streets illegally, putting in laterals to the houses. They do not put them in right. They do not fix the street right. So if you're lucky, they will pack the dirt down and throw some asphalt over it. But that's not the way you're supposed to patch it. It has to have special concrete first so the water doesn't get into the dirt and melt it away. And what happens is cars start driving down and starts pushing it down. Then you get what we call -- we already have a law against this, and it's not being enforced. So that's another thing that I'd like to know, why we're not enforcing laws that we have on the books for these bad actors who are tearing up our streets. The odd honest truth is, most of the residents who had these laterals put into their house, they paid for a permit on their bill, but they didn't get a permit. The way we know they didn't get a permit, because if they got a permit, the city comes out and fills that hole because we want it done right. Like I said, it has to be inspected. The pipes have to be inspected to make sure they're done right. Then you have to pack the dirt down and make sure you don't crack the pipe. Then you put high resistance concrete on top of that, and then the asphalt goes on. Otherwise, we're just going to have these problems. And other -- my street is collapsing for the second time since it was redone. F Street and G Street, the holes just keep moving up the street. I know they fixed the sinkhole at Hilton and G Street and two little streets up on mine, on Willard Street. There is now a new big sinkhole. A lot of times they just come out and quick fix it, which means they just throw stuff -- more stuff in there to build it up and actually don't fix the problem. I know part of that is because they're trying to hire contractors, but when people are getting water into their houses, or like, my neighbor has had to pay for the laterals to be done three times because of people parking on that block when it's there, because we're on a little street and you have to park on the sidewalk, otherwise you'll have no one side of your car. But these are the things that we have to start looking at, and we have to figure out why we're not enforcing the stuff that we already have on the books, which that would mediate some of this to begin with. Thank you. COUNCIL CHAIR YOUNG: Thank you, Councilmember. Any other remarks by members of the committee? I see none. Mr. Pullen, would you please call the first witnesses to testify on this resolution?

The first witnesses to testify are Olga Hernandez, Luis Rios, Maria Orona, and Pablo LineBoy.

My name is Olga Hernandez, and I reside at 3338 North Howard. COUNCIL CHAIR YOUNG: Thank you, ma'am. So please begin with your testimony.

Excuse me. COUNCIL CHAIR YOUNG: Please begin with your testimony. Please begin with your testimony.

My testimony. Okay. Well, I called back in July. I called 311, and I made a report about the sinkhole. In November they came and they put signs all cars to be removed because they were going to come in, deal with the problem. Come December, nothing was done. January, I called and I was informed that the case had been closed, because why? I don't know; they couldn't tell me. And I said, well, the case cannot be closed because nothing was done. So they reopened the case. Then everything started with the laterals. I was told by the Water Department that the reason we had to pay for it was because it was our lateral that was making the ditch or the cave-in on the -- on the street. But if that is the case, why is it that there are so many houses involved, even houses way down to the -- to the plot? They're nowhere near where the ditch is or the rupture or whatever you want to call it. And then, as far as how it has impacted us, my family, first of all, my husband is a disabled veteran, so we have no parking now. We have to park wherever. Groceries, I had to do most of that online because we couldn't get out. In the summertime, we have oil heating. So in the summertime, oil goes -- prices go down. Every year I call up so that we can fill our tank because the prices are so low. I couldn't do that this year. My husband was in the hospital three times, and they said everything was because: environmental. We have air filters in our house. Our house is dust free, just about, you know, as much as I can, we have a clean house. The second time that he was admitted, I was told that he probably -- if we had taken him to the VA hospital like we normally do, he probably would not have made it alive. They did pulmonary function tests. They did all kinds of testing. They said it was all environmental. When I told them what was happening in the street, they told us, more than likely that had a big effect on it. COUNCIL CHAIR YOUNG: Thank you for your testimony, ma'am. Yeah, we really appreciate that. But please stay in case any of our members have questions for you for a second. So are you testifying?

Yes, sir. COUNCIL CHAIR YOUNG: Please state your name. Please state your name for the record and begin with your testimony.

My name is Louis Rios. Well, with me, it started: they were working in the streets, and they put some heavy equipment on where my vent is at. The equipment was so heavy, they -- it cracked the cement. So I brought it to their intention and told them, you know, you all have to fix that. That wasn't broken. They told me, okay, don't worry about it. We're going to fix it. They fixed -- they started working on it. I have to laugh on this. They started working on it, and they went and they put dirt where the vent was at. They fixed the -- they fixed the problem, but they put dirt on top where the vent was at. If I didn't bring it to their attention that my vent was here, why is it covered up? They say, “Oh, don't worry, I -- we'll take care of it.” Once again, they're taking care of it. They put so much dirt in that hole. Once they put the cement and everything and put the vent, everything back together again, I was getting sewage inside my basement. I spent six months trying to clean sewage out of my basement. I told them, oh, you're going to take care of the problem. They took care of the problem. They came there, they took care of the problem. It lasted one day, and then it was clogged again. And then when I asked them, are they going to take care of it again? They say, no, that's not our problem. We took care of it already. I had to pay a plumber in order to get my vent cleaned out. While I'm going through all that trouble, I have a sick wife that just -- that just had breast cancer, survived breast cancer, trying to keep the house clean and taking care of my household, you know. I don't think that's right. That's extra problems that I don't need. COUNCIL CHAIR YOUNG: Thank you. Thank you for your testimony, sir. Are there questions of members of these witnesses? Chair recognizes Councilmember Bass.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I didn't have any questions. But I just wanted to, number one, say that I, you know, on behalf of the city, you know, we all are sorry to hear that you all have had these situations with the city. And I'd like to hear -- Mr. Chairman, I don't have a list of the -- sort of like, the order. So I'm not sure when the -- when is the department going to be testifying? COUNCIL CHAIR YOUNG: Last.

Last? COUNCIL CHAIR YOUNG: We are going to hear all of this stuff first?

We're going to hear everything first. Okay. Because -- okay. So I just really wanted to put on the table then -- thank you. I really wanted to put on the table my question, which is as far as repairing or making repairs from damage caused by the city of Philadelphia. So when they park those great big trucks up on your sidewalk, and it's funny, my colleague and I were just talking about sidewalk parking and how the concrete is three or four inches deep. And so it's not that deep. And if you park a very large vehicle, or really any vehicle with that weight on the sidewalk, you know, these kinds of things are going to happen. So when it happens, you know, the city of Philadelphia has a burden of responsibility to make sure it's done all the way through. And if we cause the damage that then leads to sewage in this gentleman's basement, then we are responsible for that as well, I believe. And so, I'd like to hear from the department in terms of, you know, how do we address items like this and how will we in the future do it so that it's -- you know, it's better for our constituents. So, you know, I'm sorry for what you have experienced. I've had a situation -- anybody who's ever had a situation with sewage in the basement, oh, it's the worst thing ever. And so I can only imagine with your spouse being sick and trying to deal with that and trying to handle all these things all at one time. The city of Philadelphia should have a responsibility and should have been at least the financially responsible party to make sure that the basement was restored back to its condition prior to these events. So I just wanted to be on record with that, Mr. Chairman. COUNCIL CHAIR YOUNG: Thank you, Councilmember. I see we have a new witness. Please state your name for the record and you can begin with your testimony.

Yes. Good morning, everyone. Hello, my name is Maria Orona, and I live in 1919 North 4th Street. I want to say my problem started back in -- I'm going to say, about 22, when our street caved in. Ever since, my life has been a living nightmare. There is no reason why the city of Philadelphia has allowed this to go this far. I have complaints here back from 311, when I have called and reported. I have tons of reports: 14936180, 16666965, 16605938. It can go on and on. I've been complaining since day one. Since I've noticed that these developers come, do as they choose, park on your sidewalk, get on your roof with no permission, which my roof is leaking since 22. Okay? Thanks to the developers. Have I reported all this? Absolutely to 311, the city of Philadelphia. Has anything been done? Here I am today, October 28th, 2025, no resolutions. I wake up with bills and bills that I am tired of. Why? Because as a homeowner, I am expected to do what's required from the city of Philadelphia. But who responds to a homeowner that has been affected year after year? Which let me tell you, I was paying $300 in property taxes and now I'm up to almost $4,000, which my neighbor in 1917 only paid $1 for his house, which is an investor, which climbed up on my roof without permission, which today he's driving -- I don't know, I think I've seen him in like three different cars, none of them under $50,000. Okay? While I'm stuck with a $20,000 defected lateral bill, which I was able to get a HELP loan for that from this city because it's beneficial to the city to lend homeowners money. So then we can get bills and tons of just -- it's ridiculous. No reason why I have to wake up in my home that I've been there before all this new development. Okay? Again, the city has allowed this because if, like people said up there, when a developer comes and they're doing work, everything has to be reported and everything needs a license. Where is this work being done? Why are these complaints not being investigated? The water. When our street caved in, I called two days later. Look up in the news. I'm all over the news. Okay? Two days later, our street caved in. I told them, listen, with all this new development going on here and no work being done to our plumbing, our electricity, our gas, but yet, then you all dare charge us how much money? I owe probably $38,000. Okay? Who's going to give me that? Who's going to allow me to go to sleep at night and not have to live with this: mold in my house? I have a grandson, for goodness' sake. He's five years old. Okay? He was two when this happened. As a parent, I'm supposed to protect him. And how dare the city. Okay? Because I'm saying the city, because every permit must go through the city to allow this. I'm sorry, I'm not educated the way you are, but I know my rights have been violated over and over again. And I demand today -- I demand, I'm not asking; I am demanding. Okay? Same way they're demanding my mortgage of 1200 to be paid, my water bill of 189, my electric bill, $68. Same way my refrigerator is asking for food to feed my grandson. It is the same way I'm expecting you all to say, you know what, ma'am? We apologize. We know we messed up, and we're going to take care of this. Not only to me, for goodness' sake, we have elderly here. I'm mad for me, but I'm hurting for them. Why? Because they already been done paid what they had to hear so they can be respected. ” Well, guess what? Not today. Not today and not no more. Okay? Same way the city is taking pride on cleaning it up so when these investors invest their money, they see that work in Philadelphia is being cleaned with the addicts. Well, guess what? I'm a recovering addict. And I got here by hard work. I got my home by hard work. And I'm standing here today because I've been praying to that man from up above. I'm making no 6 noise for nobody. I've been praying to that man from up above. Okay?

I need peace in my life. I don't want to wake up and have to deal with this. My house stinks. Do your house stink? Do your house stink? Anybody house stink? Do your house stink? Do you all wake up and feel happy to be homeowners? Because I know, and it's sad because the city has allowed this to come so far. I want to thank right now so much Ms. Lozada and everyone here for listening to me. But I'm tired of talking and people just listening. I need results. Okay?

We need results.

We want results. $1, 1917. Google that up. $1. He paid for that. How much money he don't get every month? How much trash I got to put up with every week on Tuesdays? Guess what? Our trash people went on strike. Guess why? Because all these new developments, they got a lot more work to do. Hey, kudos for them. But now let's get us and people that's been here before these developers came in with some respect. This city has to take on some responsibilities, the same way the Water, the city, L&I, Construction. I don't know. But I'm asking today that you all hear all of our testimony and that something be done. Because when I finish here and I get resolution, I'm going to make sure that I tell my community that's been affected, that doesn't know the information, that they need to get some resolution. Okay? Because we deserve this. We've been here before any of these investors came to just throw money. And we have history, life, family. I'm not leaving Philadelphia. They can keep offering me all the money in the world. I am going to stay where I'm at because that's my home. My kids grew up there. That's home. Home, guys. Do you all know what that means? I don't have to wake up stressed. Help me, you all. Help us. Okay? That's all I want. Thank you so much. COUNCIL CHAIR YOUNG: Thank you for -- yes. Thank you for that powerful testimony, Ms. Orona. I just have one question for you. If you can tell us, and just get on the record, how many times have you called 311 in the last year?

Over 100 times. Over 100 times. Porta-potty. It was, excuse my language, poop all over my sidewalk. You know when I called 311, you know what they told me? “Call the Porta-potty people and tell them they have to come and clean it.” When I called them, you know what they said? “We'll have someone out there when it's available.” And guess what? This lady, these hands had to clean up poop from construction people, from developers, God knows who else was in there, spilled all over my sidewalk, which goes into my basement because my basement leaks. By the way, that HELP program, when they came to do my work, because he's right, these trucks stand in front of our sidewalk. They break our sidewalk. Google up back in 20 and look at my sidewalk, so beautiful. And then Google up 22 and look at my sidewalk all broken. That doesn't change. Those are proven facts that you all can see. 311 check. 1919 North 4th Street. I promise you there's over 100 reports. My house is shaking. My house is leaking. You think I sleep good at night? The people that did the plumbing, it rained for about five days. They left that uncovered. All that dirt and mud went in my basement, which caused me blue mold. Did I call and report it? Absolutely. Today there's still two ditches. I'm centered, a small, beautiful, strong home, and two castles next to me. And they think that that's okay. How would this city permit, right? Because I got an engineer report, and by the way, I paid $1,200 for an engineer report -something I couldn't afford, but I had to do. Why? Because it's my home. Guess what they told me? All the water that falls on there hits my property, damaging my stuff, using my sewer, all that stuff. But the city allowed these two houses to be built next to mine. How does that work? How does it work that I've been complaining for year after year, and it has to come to that I come in front of a bunch of people so I can be heard? Why is it so sad that if I say I have water coming in my basement, can someone please come out? Well, guess what? Let me show you something. See these? Complaints. But let me tell you, this person right here, Water Department called me at 2 o'clock in the morning. For what? For what? I work for mine. You got the wrong one, baby. I got a $1,500 check. For what? You tell me what $1,500 can do. Which it never even came to my hand. They approved me for it, but it never got to me. $1,500. Who makes $1,500 here in one month and it's enough? When I've been enduring this year after year. I got estimates: $28,000 to fix my basement, to fix my sidewalk $8,000. Ridiculous. Then they ask us, oh yeah, you said, yeah, people hire contractors and they come and they cover it up because people can't afford it. But these investors can, and guess what? They have the audacity, okay, to do these potholes and walk away from there with a big fat check, and we get stuck with a big fat bill. How does that work? Why do the city allow this? Is it making you all money? Because it's causing us pain. Pain year after year. I can't look at my grandson and say I'm doing a good job because I got him living under these conditions. Mold. Mold, everybody. Who's okay with letting their babies live in mold, sleep, play? We live there. This is not an investment property. This is our home. I can go on, but I have to stop. Thank you. COUNCIL CHAIR YOUNG: The chair recognizes Councilmember Phillips.

I just want to say thank you for sharing this. I'm at a loss for words. You know, when I hear this -- when I hear you speak, I feel like the way you're speaking is as if you have not gotten a response from -- yeah. Hold, I'm about to ask you a question.

Sorry.

And I want to say thank you for this because this is important. You have been in touch with the Philadelphia Water Department about your issue, right? What response from the Philadelphia Water Department have you received, in writing or verbally, from the Philadelphia Water Department, you know, if you could be as concise as possible because I have another question for you after this.

I want to say it was in June or July in '23. My water got cut off from the Water Department because I had called them and said, hey, I'm going in front, like I'm fighting the affected lateral. I didn't want to pay for it because I didn't feel it was my responsibility. But when they give you these papers, they tell you you have like a certain amount of time to respond. Well, guess what? They came out on a Saturday and cut my water off. On a Saturday. On God, they cut my water off on a Saturday.

So are they saying -- is the Water Department saying -- are you saying that the lateral is your responsibility? Is that --

They already fixed it.

They fixed it. So what's the issue now?

I have a big bill and a basement full of blue mold because they came out and they didn't do a good job. But yet then they want like, almost $20,000, I think it was.

And then when you told them that wasn't your responsibility, what was their response?

I reached out to them. “We'll get back to you.”

That's it. And so --

And then “We'll get back to you” is never coming back.

Thank you. So this is the issue that I have with the Water Department. Every response that I get from them, especially for emergencies, is “We'll get back to you.”

Uh-huh.

Coming weeks. Something that is not immediate. There's no deadline, there's no timeline. And I think that's unacceptable. You deserve to have a decent response time. Whether or not it's in favor or not in favor, an explanation, they should be able to exhaust all. Thank you. I'm -- again, I'm sorry to hear this.

Thank you. COUNCIL CHAIR YOUNG: Thank you, Councilmember Phillips. The chair recognizes Councilmember Lozada.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I think that you're going to, over the course of this morning, you're going to hear very similar stories. And I think that's the frustrating part. And for us, it was important that residents tell their stories first and then that we hear from city departments. Because oftentimes what happens in committee hearings or in council sessions is that public testimony goes last. And at that point, or by that point, most of the individuals that can do something about it, that can act upon some of these very serious concerns, are gone. They've left the space. And so, electeds like us who represent our constituents on a day-to-day and come in contact with them on a regular basis are left with trying to figure out how we continue to connect them with resources. Sometimes, as you're hearing, resources that don't effectively resolve the situation. And so that is why it was important for us to allow for some of these residents to go first and then have city departments come after. But these are the same stories that we hear day after day, week after week, month after month. You know, for situations to go on for years, it's troubling. And at some point, we need to figure out, as a government, how do we proactively respond to the old infrastructure that we have underground, as well as how do we hold some of these contractors accountable for the work that's not completed, right? And what exactly is that process? I think that even offices like mine need to better understand the process so that we can better communicate that to our constituents. And so I know that some are probably wondering why residents are first and then city departments after. I think it was important for me to just share with you the why, right? We need to make sure that these stories are heard and that they're on the record and that they're heard by those who can actually bring some resolution to them. So thank you very much for that. Thank you all for sharing your stories with us today.

I have something else to say. COUNCIL CHAIR YOUNG: Yes, ma'am. Please.

I'm sorry. COUNCIL CHAIR YOUNG: Yes, please proceed.

Yeah. I also have to say that last year, when this all started in our neighborhood, I purchased the water resources insurance thinking, you know, I'll be covered if anything happens. They don't cover that either. So we paid for this insurance for nothing. We are on a fixed income. We're senior citizens. And this is -- it was a stress going from one place to another to see who's going to be able to help us. We can hardly even get around. And then on top of that, we do find the help. Our bills are going up. When my husband got sick, the ambulance had made like two or three turns to back down our street to pick up my husband, who almost died on his way to the hospital. And that shouldn't happen. That shouldn't have happened. That shouldn't have happened at all. If they had fixed this a long time ago when it was first reported, I would've been a widow today. And I say that because that had a lot to do with it also, because it's all environmental. COUNCIL CHAIR YOUNG: Thank you. Chair recognizes Councilmember Bass.

Thank you. And thank you all for your testimony. Mr. Chairman, I wanted to make a suggestion, and I know that Councilwoman Lozada has been actively engaged on this topic. And it just, you know, has dawned on me as to how, as district members, you know, I know that you have, obviously, Quet, you know, these situations. In my district, I have a situation on the -- I want to say 2900 block of North Judson Street, where we just were able to get funding to redo the street, which was sinking. And it sounds very, very similar: water issues underground, trucks on pavements, the Water Department coming out, starting work, stopping work, patching things, not completing them. And it led to the -- basically the street on the verge of collapse where, you know, ma'am, where you said the truck had to back down the street because they couldn't travel down the full length of the street because it was just so tenuous. It -- you know, it probably looked like this block of Judson Street in my district, where it looked like it could collapse at any minute. So what I was going to suggest to the chairman, and this is something that we could probably discuss later, is to maybe, as members, have a sort of like a working group around this with Philadelphia Water Department to talk through and meet with them on a regular basis and go through our cases and just sort of share what you've learned, what I've learned, what you may have learned with the Water Department, so that we can -- you know, they can help us and we can help them. You know, because we need -- we have to work together to try to get some of these things addressed. But our constituents need our help. And we all know that. You know, there's no reason that you should be stuck with a $30,000 bill or, you know, a $20,000, any bill of any kind. If we do the damage, we are responsible. If you create the condition, you are responsible for the results. And that's what the city of Philadelphia has to live up to. So just a suggestion, Mr. Chairman. COUNCIL CHAIR YOUNG: Thank you, Councilmember.

I'm sorry. Like two days ago our -- not mine's, I want to say about -- I live on 4th Street. On 9th, the street caved in. I want to say this, and I mean this, I don't know why, but it happened here, here, here. Listen, it is going to happen here. Get some work done. You all paying these people, get them to check these things out. Because guess what? You all going to pay to help us and then we're going to get all over again. So what I feel that everyone needs to do is, like, really work together to resolve it. Because these payouts, it's good to help us, but it's not enough. I want to wake up and feel that my street is not going to cave in. That all this development is not going to cause any more harm than it already has caused. And I think that that's something that, if there's anything I want to do, let's look into these things. Because if I'm not mistaken, 1893 was -- I heard that my plumbing in my neighborhood is since 1893 and we're in 2025. I had to share that because it happened in three spots. It's going to happen on that spot. Because before we had a house, now we have a building with two and 300 apartments. I used to get water in my house, take a shower. Now I'm getting a little spritz of water. I had to share that because I think that's really important too. Thank you.

Well, our streets were done about 30 years ago. I was living there still. And one of the plumbers told me the work was not done right and this is why you guys are having this problem. And who did that work? The Water Department. So now we have to pay for what they did wrong. COUNCIL CHAIR YOUNG: Thank you. Good morning, sir. Are you here to testify as well? Please state your name for the record and begin.

Yes, sir. Okay. How is everybody? I cannot hear very well or he's going to tell me. Then I talk. COUNCIL CHAIR YOUNG: Great. MALE VOICE: I'm his son.

Okay. He is my son. May the 30th of this year, when I was leaving my house, I came down to the basement, and the basement was full of water. I was thinking they had a leak... COUNCIL CHAIR YOUNG: Can you give us -- can you give us your name for the record?

So I went downstairs -- oh, I'm sorry. My name Pablo Ayala. I live in 1612 North Colorado Street, Philadelphia. 19122. I lived there for four, five years. That day, May 30th, when I got up in the morning, I open the door to the -- to the basement, and the basement was lot of water. So where it was coming from, I was thinking they had a leak. I went downstairs and I measured 32 inches of water on my basement. So the first thing I did, I called the Fire Department, Water Department, police. Everybody came, but they cannot find where the water was coming from because it was too much. It was too deep. So I turned around and I went over and I bought me two, three pumps to pump the water because the Water Department said they don't have no pumps. I say, how am I going to get this water out? So they turned off my electric, they turned off the gas, everything. So next door was the school, they gave me electric to pump the water out for one hour. And the water is still coming up, but they don't know where it was coming from. The only thing, the basement was getting more water. So they find out -- they check out and they see there was no 23 leak on my house. The water was coming, but they don't know where. And have it, it was not raining. ” So it was a hole in the street, in the middle of the street, but it was dry. But they don't know where the water is coming from. So they put some clock there and say, “Oh, it's a leak here. ” So the Water Department are cutting. It was not water. They say it's my line of water coming to my house. So they said they cannot touch it. I have to get my own plumber. I got three plumber, registered plumber. They came in and they say, “Your line is perfect. It's not yours. ” So the Water Department was -- came back, and they dig a hole they can find where was the water at. So they left. So I said, what I going to do now with all that water I got in my basement? So I went over with another pump, 82 days pumping water from the basement. Call the Water Department. Every day I make about 50, 60 calls. ” I said, I can't give you no 14 more because right now it's still lot of water in the basement. I got me adjuster. Adjuster came in for nine days. He measured every day for 32 inches. The water came that -- it rained -- it rained. ” Where the water is coming? Where's the Water Department at? He called, I called, nobody showed up. So I still had three pumps pumping water day and night for 82 days. I lost everything on my basement, everything. So finally, at the end, about days, 8 gas company came in and they turned 9 my gas on because I went over and 10 bought me a tank to have hot water 11 because I was taking a shower in the 12 -- in the yard because I had no hot 13 water, no nothing. So they put the electric back. How they put the electric back, I don't know. The only thing that I know, they turn off the electric a couple hours. So how they got the electric back? I don't know. So I turn my pumps back on. Now, what was 8th? July? August the 26th, they found out a leak about three houses down the street. So they say that there was a leak before and they fix it, but they never told me or anybody in the neighborhood to turn off the water. They say, how -- what's going -- what's going on? Because they didn't tell us to turn out the water off. So what happened when they -- when they found the -- it was a leak. The guy say, “Take some water. ” I said, I'm not getting no 18 water in basement. It was coming -- the -- my basement looked like a shower for 82 days. Look like a shower So right now -- so in the last, what, three, four weeks? I haven't got no more water, but it rains, I get water. Every week the Water Department come, I don't know what they're coming for. They come, they park the truck, they take the tools out, they put them in the street half an hour, an hour later, and they go to the corner and they open the fire hydrant, and water come down into the hole for maybe five minutes or 10 minutes.

They leave about maybe another 10 or 15 minutes, water coming to my basement again. Why they open the water? I don't know. Last week I've been calling, I got 15 telephone numbers over here for the Water Department. The only thing they say to me, “Give me pictures. ” So what am I going to do, give me pictures? Said they not coming to fix the water. Now, last week they came, it was a Tuesday. ” They say, I said to him, if you the boss, what's going to happen with that hole in there? It no more water, but if it rain, I put clothing. I put cement and I seal. I got pictures. ” That was last week. Thursday, nobody show up. Friday, nobody show up. Yesterday, nobody show up. And that's been going down for the last six months. ” And nobody answered the door. I say, listen, I having breakfast, lunch, and dinner in the estate every day. I sit down 8:30 in the morning to 5:00 o'clock and nobody come here. My telephone -- my telephone is right here. Look how big you can see my telephone number for maybe feet. You can read it from there in case I go to bathroom. Or maybe in case I go to the kitchen to get something they can see. If the Water Department come, anybody, why they don't leave a note or wait, the door is open. So I really, I don't know what's going on. COUNCIL CHAIR YOUNG: Thank you so much, via testimony. And I can say personally, I've had our own issues with the customer service at the Water Department. Just letting us know that the water's being cut off at my district office. Like there's work being done, and I had to physically go out myself and talk to some people and tell them, hey, I'm the councilor, and my office, like, doesn't have water. And then they came around with a little note, like, you know, after five hours without having water. So the customer service there definitely needs to -- the communication needs to improve when it comes to the service at the Water Department, because I can attest firsthand that it doesn't -- it's not -- it doesn't go both ways often. So I can definitely appreciate you and your testimony for coming down here today. Are there any questions of members of the committee?

So in other words, right now, I don't have no 16 water. They fixed everything they found out, but when it rained the water come to the basement. So what I did, I bought some cement and seal it. MALE VOICE: Outside.

Outside, is in the street. It's not in a basement. So they told me that I had to fix my basement to find out my line. My line was perfect. So they want to charge me $676 because the plumber said, no, you charge to the city because this is not mine. My line is perfect. I got no problems at all. So now every morning when I see the weather every day, they're going to rain. I'm ready to put -- I got the pumps ready there in case I get more water. So start pumping because we don't know when they're going to fill the hole in outside. So I lost everything in my basement. I just brought January, February, I brought a hot water tank. It cost me $900. It only lasted me two months. That washing machine was four years old. It was going. The jacuzzi, the heater, the basement I saw a crack. Can you imagine the water coming out? It's so cracked. MALE VOICE: It's true. I was in his basement. I'm his son. My son called me at 5:00 o'clock in the morning, say, “Dad, bad.” What? “There's water in his grandpa's basement.” I went inside that basement. I didn't knew it was that bad. There were like three to four feet of water on my legs. The four stairs, he -- I didn't want him to go downstairs. I'm holding it because he's 84 years old. I went, he showed me, I got the pumps, got the hose line out, pumping that water like crazy. My son lost his clothes. My father got all the papers, everything he lost. And I was pushing that water out. He lost a pump. He lost just about everything. This man got abandoned. He went for years. And when the Water Department did not do as much as I told them they do. You supposed to do it. What's going on? You all come over here and make a hole and then you disappear. What's up with that? What's up with that? They said the water is coming from your -- no, wrong. We look at the meter. You got a water meter. If your water meter is running, that means it's water. But if you shut it off, right? There's no water coming in. So they did it. So the water was coming from out there. So it took a long time. They need to figure that out. So, oh, sorry, Mr. Pablo. It's our problem. It's our problem. But if you got a problem, fix it. See the stick right here? He put a big turn note on his screen door. Even I could see it from far away. You mean he told me the guy's going to come and say he's going to come? He never showed up. You know why? Because I was there 24/7. Yeah, I don't live there. That's my dad. COUNCIL CHAIR YOUNG: Thank you for your testimony. Thank you. Are there questions for anyone? MALE VOICE: I want you to do me a favor. Do something now. COUNCIL CHAIR YOUNG: Yes, sir. MALE VOICE: But this is -- this is ridiculous. This is ridiculous. I'm going to get sick. COUNCIL CHAIR YOUNG: Yes. And I think that's why we're here, to hear your stories so we can figure out what we can do as a City Council to make sure that this doesn't keep happening all over our city. Because it's an issue that's happening everywhere on a daily basis. And we're going to make sure we get to the bottom of that. MALE VOICE: Okay. COUNCIL CHAIR YOUNG: Thank you. MALE VOICE: Thank you.

Last week I called Joseph Miller, who's serving me for years old because he said, 6 “You heater no good.” So he came 7 over, he tried to fix it, put a new 8 model, he fixed it because it was 9 almost $900. I had to pay because 10 getting cold and I can't get nobody 11 around. So now I bought another 12 tank of hot water so I can take a 13 shower and use them. 14 I bought another washing 15 machine. So now, I got the pumps 16 ready there in case it happens 17 again. Hopefully not. But at least 18 if I didn't have a couple dollars, 19 what would've happened now? The 20 board -- nobody from the Water 21 Department inspector came. Nobody. 22 I don't know what happened. I got 23 here -- I think I got here about 15 24 telephone number for the -- for the Water Department. There it goes. Every time I go on, they say, “Give me picture. Give me pictures.” Picture for what? Send me inspector so they can see. One employee from the Water Department came and he was outside. I said, “Come inside and see if you can see what was going on my basement.” He said to me, “The City of Philadelphia is not responsible for your loss here.” I said, “Why?” He said, “I am inspector.” I said, “If you are the inspector, okay, is that what you say? It is really? Okay, fine. No problem. What I'm going to do, I'm going to fix everything on my own.” He said, “But that's what you have to do.” I don't know. And I said to him, “If you inspector, why you dress up like a hardworking man? Inspector don't dress like that. Show me something. And you telling me Water Department not responsible. Now, you can see with your own eyes." He said to me -- he said to me, “Wait for me, I'll be right back.” Okay? So I wait about 7 minutes. He didn't show. When I 8 go, the truck was gone. I said, 9 “Where is inspector at?” 10 MALE VOICE: He didn't have no idea.

Had no idea. I said, This must be a joke, but whatever, anyway, I going to have everything fixed. So right now, I got hot water, I got gas, I got electric, I got everything on my own and I got the receipts. I got the adjuster, he came. COUNCIL CHAIR YOUNG: So one thing I would like to say is that when you feel this is the city's issue, we want to make sure we connect everyone with the Office of Risk Management again so you can file your claims against the city and start that process of trying to be made whole again. So definitely want to make sure you have -- you're connected with that office so there's a record of your financial loss from the city.

And by the way, last Tuesday, because I was still calling about three or four employees from the Water Department, and one of the guy came in and said to me, “I'm the boss of all the employees on the Water Department.” I said to him, “Oh really? Okay, let's come over here and talk.” I show him, and I said to him, “You the boss, right?” He said, “Okay. Thursday.” He said, “Don't worry about, Thursday, somebody going to be here Thursday or Friday or next week.” So they told me, Make sure the traffic here -- because we going to have trucks come here. Where they are? Thursday, nobody show. Friday, nobody show. Yesterday, nobody show. Four weeks ago they told me, “Monday, we're coming to work here. We don't want no cars around here.” So I moved my car from my house on Sunday, 11:00 o'clock at night. Said, let me move my car from here in case I get up late next day. I had an appointment with doctor at 9:00 o'clock. When I went out, my car was missing from the corner. Where is my car at? Gone. What happened? I don't know. I called the 26th District. They came. I called the 25th District, the 13th District. I spoke to the SEPTA, they passed by there. They said to me, “If we don't have no 24 phone call, we don't have no nothing at all.” So where did you park the car? Right there. And the school next door, they checked by the camera and they saw me parking the car there. The next day my car was not there and I still can't find it. COUNCIL CHAIR YOUNG: So I think that's something that we -- you know, we get that information, we can help you find it, sir.

And by the way, the Water Department didn't show up either to do the job. M1: And yesterday didn't show up at all. COUNCIL CHAIR YOUNG: Thank you. Thank you. We appreciate that testimony. Again, it's going to be very helpful for us as we do our due diligence to ensure, you know, that your issues are resolved. So again, thank you so much for coming down and testifying today. We really appreciate that. Thank you.

In case this happen again, what I'm going to do is I'm going to buy me a boat, put them in the basement. That's the only thing I can do. COUNCIL CHAIR YOUNG: Thank you. Mr. Pullen, would you please call the next witnesses to testify on this resolution?

The next witness to testify is George Kunkel. COUNCIL CHAIR YOUNG: Is this the witness testifying via -- what's that? Online? There we go.

Yes. Good morning. Can you hear me? COUNCIL CHAIR YOUNG: Yes, sir. Good morning. Please state your name for the record and you can begin with your testimony.

Thank you. My name is George Kunkel. I'm a licensed professional engineer in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania. My education background and experience in the field of civil engineering. My specific focus is water efficiency and water loss control in drinking water utilities. My work experience includes a 35-year tenure with the Philadelphia Water Department or PWD, which I completed in 2015. Since this time, I've worked as an independent consultant and also work part-time in a role that I have with the Pennsylvania Department of Environmental Protection and its Water Operator Outreach Assistance Program, assisting water utilities serving small communities. I'm also very active in the American Water Works Association, or AWWA, where I've served as chair of the publishing committee for three editions of AWWA's leading guidance manual on water efficiency. I'm also creator and co-author of AWWA's free water audit software, which is a software tool that allows utilities to audit their water supply in a standardized format. I've conducted water audits for approximately 200 water utilities of all sizes and have assisted many of them in better controlling their losses. Today I'm providing brief comments -- COUNCIL CHAIR YOUNG: Mr. Kunkel, if I may -- Mr. Kunkel, if I may, we do have your written testimony, which is in front of all members of council. If you could -- if you could summarize the testimony for us as we prepare other witnesses and things like that as well. Thank you.

I will do my best. But it's a complex issue, so bear with me if I continue to read. I'll try to summarize where I can. So this hearing, as I've learned, it was scheduled due to concerns occurring from trends of water main breaks, leaks, and other disturbances in the 7th Councilmanic District of Philadelphia. Such problems are typical of many utilities in the Northeastern United States, which were constructed well over a hundred years ago. Philadelphia's water supply system is one of the first established in the United States, and it's provided reliable service for over 200 years. While this is -- while PWD has a proud history, this results in having to manage an extensive network of aging pipelines, many of which have high failure rates. Leaks and breaks occur in distribution systems and customer service lines due to many reasons, including corrosion of metal pipe, poor materials or construction methods, inadequate repair of active leaks, temperature effects, and other reasons. Leaks and breaks occur in all water distribution systems; only the extent varies. PWD began to closely track failures for water main breaks in its system in the mid-1960s and has one of the longest standing and most extensive records of water system failure in the country. This data is important because it assists engineers in analyzing the performance of the system and prioritizing pipelines for replacement. In the city, typically, there are between 600 and 1,000 water main breaks per year, but years with extreme cold can elevate this to over 1,300 breaks in a year. An indicator called the break rate is measured on the number of annual breaks, or average breaks per 100 miles of pipeline in the system. AWWA sets a guideline of breaks per 100 miles of pipeline for utilities as a reasonably expected level. A 1923 study of utilities around the country found an average break rate of breaks per 100 8 miles of pipeline. 5 per hundred miles of pipeline as of 2024. So it's still well above the guideline that's been established by AWWA. PWD's water main replacement program also dates from the 1960s, so there is a long history of replacing aging pipeline. In the early years, they used a simple point system, but more recently, efforts were undertaken to move to a more articulate method of analysis that looks at both likelihood of failure of a given pipeline and the consequence of failure on such a pipeline. On a mathematical basis, you can assign factors to each, and if you multiply them together, you'll get a singular risk score. So that risk recognizes both the likelihood of failure and the consequence. If both of those factors are high, you'll get a high- risk score, and therefore, those pipelines with a high-risk score should be given priority for replacement sooner rather than later. Philadelphia's had a goal generally for many years of replacing about miles of pipeline 20 in the system. It's a system that has over 3,000 miles of pipeline. At that replacement rate, it's expecting each pipe to last 150 years, whereas typical expected service life for piping is 50 to 100 years. So at miles per year, 3 that's really not an adequate level. 4 Even to obtain a percent 5 replacement rate, which would equate 6 to 100-year service life, PWD should 7 be replacing 30 miles of pipe per 8 year. Recent data that I've found 9 in a report for the 2026 budget 10 year, PWD listed a goal of replacing 11 32 miles of pipeline per year, but 12 in 2024 had replaced only 26 miles 13 pipeline per year. 14 It's difficult to find 15 information on break rates and pipeline mileage replacement totals in the public record, or at least on available websites. So I don't -- definitely don't have all of the information here for recent years from PWD. But again, when the analysis methodology was evolving in my last several years with PWD, there was thinking that a goal of almost 40 miles of pipeline replacement per year should be considered.

Within general of -- the overall totals of replacement, there are several cohorts of pipeline that I should mention. One is known as the Leadite Joint Pipeline. Leadite is a specific type of joining material that we've used where you connect lengths of pipe together. This pipeline was installed in the post-World War II era, typically in the lower northeast section of the city. And this pipeline material, unfortunately, has had a high failure rates because the joints fail due to problems with this joining material. Studies were done that found that this type of pipe actually has the highest incidence of failure and is 85 percent more likely to fail than the average of all pipeline in the city. This pipeline cohort is one that should be given focus. PWD has replaced Leadite Joint Pipeline for many years. The question is, are they replacing enough of it and fast enough? The second cohort, which is percent more likely to fail than 10 the average pipeline, is pipeline 11 vintage from 1902 to 1925, an era 12 when many, many miles of pipeline 13 were installed when Philadelphia was 14 at the height of its time as a 15 leading manufacturing center. So 16 the fact is that there are many 17 miles of that pipe out there. 18 In addition to just 19 outright replacement, Philadelphia 20 may have opportunity to look at lengths of pipeline which I categorize as extraneous in that they are not serving the purpose. They're not now serving the purpose they were intended for, either because city blocks are completely vacant, no buildings exist, or in a second case, some of this extraneous pipeline could be large diameter transmission mains -- the arteries of the distribution system. Philadelphia's water supply system was constructed to serve 3 million people, and the city never came close to that in population, never came close to the delivery -- the water delivery goals that it has set out in its planning. And this dates back to the 1950s. Hence, there is additional capacity, and a lot of it's in piping in the streets. In some cases, you have three or four or more separate transmission lines in one street, and that capacity is no longer needed. Decommissioning extraneous piping is a cost-effective way to remove risky pipe from the system. It does not cost near as much as a replacement, removes capacity -- that excess capacity and also avoids the potential that water quality may stagnate from low flows. Finally, in terms of replacement, PWD might focus on a small number of areas where there is unusually high water pressure. By that, I'll suggest over 120 pounds per square inch. The area of Manayunk is actually one of those high-pressure areas, and I note in my testimony of an eight-inch main break earlier this year that caused considerable damage. There may be opportunity to look at these pockets of very high pressure, which may be experiencing an inordinate number of main breaks, and see if there are manners in place, methods to reduce the pressure. And that could be a more costly approach rather than replacing the mains. Basically, Philadelphia is greatly challenged to keep the infrastructure up to date, but expanding the replacement program is probably still the best remedy. And I realize that that incurs additional costs in terms of design, construction, contractor capacity, and other factors. In addition to the fact of main breaks or visible ruptures, Philadelphia suffers many leaks each year. Many of these leaks are hidden from the public. They're small volume, but they run sight unseen, but they are still there. PWD is required by the Delaware River Basin Commission to submit an annual water audit each year. 7 gallons per service connection per day. So that's an average figure, and this is quite a high rate of leakage, higher than 90 percent of a reference data set that AWWA maintains of 1,124 water systems. So this rate is greater than 90 percent of those 1100 systems.

So -- and unfortunately, that rate appears to be increasing slowly over recent years. For drinking waters around the world, the greatest number of leaks occurring in systems is on customer service lines, rather on water mains valves or hydrants. And the greatest annual volume of water loss to leakage occurs from leaks on service lines. S. water utilities, the customer owns a portion of the service line from the midpoint in the sidewalk, typically where a shut-off valve or curb stop exists. The water utility in these scenarios owns the other portion of the line connecting from the water main to this curb stop. So there is a shared responsibility for most utilities in the United States for maintenance of lines and addressing leaks on those portions of the lines. Unfortunately, for PWD, the city of Philadelphia is one of the minority of 10 percent of systems where the customer owns the entire line: from the tapping point in the water main into the property. Additionally, the water meter is typically inside the property, so a leak on the service line outside of the property will not register a high flow on the meter that helps to detect the leak. So inherently, leaks discovered on service lines, by and large, typically are referred to the customers since they are the owner of the line. So even when leaks are known, such as Philadelphia's leak detection program, the responsibility is referred to the customer. And inherently -- and this is across the United States, customers are slower to respond to leaks than utilities when they have a leak on their portion of the service line that they own. PWDs have different ways to assist customers; one is the Homeowner Emergency Loan Program, or HELP, which allows homeowners to receive zero-interest loans to conduct replacement of their service line or lateral. And this has been a worthwhile program, but at times the administration of the program has suffered. Repayment of loans does not always occur, and there are administrative issues around the program. If that is a program that's to continue, making sure that it's running efficiently and can effectively assist the customer will be an important thing going forward. PWD, like every utility in the country now, is also confronting the need to replace lead service lines. PWD in the past year has been identifying these service lines, although lots of lines are considered to be of unknown material, so there's a challenge there. Anywhere from 20,000 to 25,000 lead lines exist, and federal regulations are calling for these to be replaced. And that, in terms of leakage, is a good thing because, as you've heard, so much leakage occurs on service lines. If they're being replaced because they're lead material, well, that might also assist in reducing leakage too as that occurs. Finally, the PWD has had a leak detection program for over 40 years, and that has been effective and a necessary program. At times I've noticed it's been more effective than other times. I would say in my last couple of years, between 2013 and 2015, we had seen a large changeover of staff retirement of longtime skilled technicians, and I observed a period where the number of leaks detected had dropped dramatically, even though crews were still out patrolling for leaks. So having the program in place is important, having the staff, but also having the training, the monitoring, the supervision is critical because staff has to be effective in actually being able to identify the leaks. And then only then can you set forth to try to get them repaired. To summarize and conclude here, PWD is greatly challenged to manage what is arguably the oldest water distribution system in the country, and it has also admirably conducted programs for more than half a century to both control leakage and replace pipelines. However, I think with the age and condition of the system, PWD does have a herculean level challenge and must still look to elevate its efforts.

And I would have to say that the incident leaks, the complaints, the disruption that's been voiced at this hearing does probably evidence that PWD needs to accelerate its activities. Thank you very much. COUNCIL CHAIR YOUNG: Thank you so much for your testimony, Mr. Kunkel. Is there any questions for this witness by members of the committee? Seeing none. Well, I do have one question for you. So at the current rate of -- that the city is replacing pipes, can you just get on the record -- there's a lot of that in your testimony. Can you just get on the record; how long will it take the city to replace the current -- the pipes -- the old pipes at the current rate that they're replacing them? Like, I guess, talk about the average useful life of each -- as of the pipes and how long will the city take to replace each pipe?

Okay. And recognized too the city has been replacing pipeline since the late 1960s. So considerable lengths have been replaced already, just on average number basis, given it's a 3000-mile system. If it were only to replace 1 percent of that each year or 30 miles, then you're expecting every pipe to live last a hundred years, which is probably about the highest lifetime you might expect. Now, Philadelphia has many pipelines well over a hundred years, although Philadelphia also has many breaks and many leaks. So probably evidencing that living with pipelines over a hundred years is going to result in leaks and breaks -- excessive leaks and breaks. So, right now, the 30 mile is sort of like -- the 30-mile goal might be a bare minimum and fill it, PWD to my knowledge, has not achieved that 30-mile goal, although I -- again, I could not find yearly totals for recent years. So very likely, PWD needs to have 30 -- it may have a goal of 32 miles right now, but I'm not sure it's meeting it. However, it still may want to even have a higher goal than that, maybe between 35 and up to 40 miles even per year. COUNCIL CHAIR YOUNG: Thank you so much. Again, any other questions for this witness? Mr. Kunkel, thank you so much for your testimony this morning. It's very informative for us. Thank you.

You are welcome. COUNCIL CHAIR YOUNG: And your full statement will -- written statement will be made a part of the record of this hearing as well. So again, thank you so much for your testimony. Mr. Pullen, would you please call the next witnesses to testify on this resolution?

The next witness to testify is Benjamin C. Jewel, Commissioner for the Philadelphia Water Department. COUNCIL CHAIR YOUNG: Good morning, Mr. Jewel. I want to say welcome. I know you are newly appointed, the Commissioner of the Water Department, but I know you have an extensive history in the Water Department. So I want to congratulate you on being appointed Commissioner of the Water Department. But, as you see today from this hearing, you know, it may not -- everyone might not want to congratulate you today. But please begin with your -- state your name and give us your testimony.

Good morning. Thank you. My name is Benjamin Jewel. I am recently appointed Commissioner of the Water Department. Thank you. Good morning, Councilmember Young and members of the Streets and Services Committee. Good morning, Councilmember Driscoll and members of the Transportation and Public Utilities Committee. And good morning, Councilmember Lozada, representing the residents, businesses, and stakeholders of the 7th Councilmanic District. Thank you for the opportunity to testify before you today regarding Resolution No. 250160. As I said, I'm Benjamin Jewel, Water Commissioner. My team and I are here this morning to provide testimony related to the issues of cave-ins and water main breaks in the 7th District. Philadelphia Water Department owns and operates and maintains a vast system of water mains and sewers distributed throughout the city of Philadelphia. In our water distribution system, the department's inventory includes 3,057 miles of mains, of which 328 miles, or approximately 10 percent, are in the 7th Councilmanic District. In our wastewater and storm water collection system, the department's inventory includes 3,729 miles of sewer, of which 270 miles, or approximately 7 percent, are in the 7th Councilmanic District. To support the operation of these systems, the department deploys field personnel from multiple units. The department's distribution, load control, and pumping units consist of approximately 280 employees with responsibility for water main repairs, water storage and conveyance system operation, and 24-hour emergency response. The department's sewer maintenance and flow control units consist of approximately 300 employees who are responsible for sewer inspection, cleaning and repair, inlet repairs, emergency response, and flow management. In support of water and sewer teams and to assist the public, the department staffs its call center as well as field personnel specifically tasked with responding to customer impacts and infrastructure through our operations administration unit. To support operations personnel and improve the reliability and resilience of our water and sewer systems, the department implements a robust capital planning and infrastructure improvement program. Our capital planning program reviews a wide variety of operational and construction data as well as weighing impacts from various investment programs to inform decision making on which locations will be targeted for investment. While the department has responsibility for public water and sewer mains that provide service to our residents, there is a large amount of privately owned plumbing infrastructure in the city. In Philadelphia, residents have ownership and maintenance responsibility for plumbing from the point of connection to the public water/sewer mains into their homes and then all internal plumbing. The causes of street cave- ins, water leaks, and main breaks can be various, including public and private infrastructure. The department plays a critical role in assessing those root causes so the responsible party can take action to remediate the issue. When PWD infrastructure is the cause of cave- ins or leaks, we endeavor to repair those as quickly as possible. If a cave-in or leak is found to be caused by issues with private infrastructure, the department promptly notifies the resident and water account holder with notification via issuance of a notice of defect. PWD understands that the cost of repairs to plumbing infrastructure can be very expensive, and bearing those expenses can be difficult for our residents. In response, PWD provides direct financial assistance to residents through the administration of our Homeowner Emergency Loan Program, or HELP loan, which offers zero-interest loans with various repayment timelines based on the ability of the customer to pay.

Additionally, many other resources are available to assist with necessary repairs such as private insurance through American Water Resources or homeowners' insurance. I appreciate that the issues of cave-ins and main breaks can be disruptive to residents and can negatively impact quality of life and public safety. The department has a strong commitment to the highest level of service and works cooperatively with the Streets Department and other utilities in the public right of way to do so. Thank you for the opportunity to appear here today. I'm happy to answer any questions. COUNCIL CHAIR YOUNG: Thank you. So as I'm looking through this, it's data request. I don't know if you have this sheet. I don't know where it came from. But I'm just looking at my district and, you know, we've had the highest number of breaks per 100 miles in the 5th Council District, and I just want to put that on the record. According to this document here, with 40 per 100 miles, and just last Friday we had a break that affected, you know, thousands of residents. And so just listening to the testimony today, can you just describe to us what PWD is really doing to address this issue? And I -- and I -- and I say that because we have had expert testimony today from a former Water Department employee, right? I would consider him an expert on this matter, who basically said that what we are doing is not enough. Basically what he says is what we are doing is -- in our replacement program, it's not quick enough to address the number of breaks that we have every year. So could you just talk to us a little bit about that, and really describe to us what the Water Department's plan is to address these issues?

Sure. And yes, Mr. Kunkel, who testified earlier, is a former Water Department employee who is kind of foundational to the program that we continue to implement since his retirement. You know, he mentioned a few metrics. Last year we had a goal of replacing -- of scheduling for replacement 42 miles of water mains. We actually bid a total number of 45 miles during that fiscal year. COUNCIL CHAIR YOUNG: Did you say bid?

Bid. So contracted for services in order to be able to deploy our contracted forces to do the work to relay the main. So yes, there is a -- COUNCIL CHAIR YOUNG: So how much work was done? How many miles of work were done?

We replaced approximately -- COUNCIL CHAIR YOUNG: You can put out bids every day, but if the work isn't getting done, it is for nothing.

Yeah. So, we're estimating 45 miles replaced during fiscal year 2025. And obviously like because of the procurement process, we're bidding, contracting, and then deploying resources into the field. So there is a delay. So the jobs that were bid last year, and were contracted under will continue to be implemented into the future. We've seen some pressures on our investments over the last few years, so we've seen a 75 percent increase in the unit cost. And for us, we measure cost for water relays and specifically as like dollars per mile. We've seen an increase in those costs of 75 percent over the last three years and a four-fold increase in those costs since 2000. We -- as a department, we operate not just a water distribution system, we operate a sewer system, we operate water treatment facilities and wastewater treatment facilities. And we, you know, take very seriously the need to balance those different investments, all of which are really critical to ensuring we're able to continue to deliver services -- all of the services that we provide to all of the communities in Philadelphia. And at the same time, you know, as Mr. Kunkel alluded to, we are facing some emerging regulatory issues that are going to further kind of pressure our financial budgets. So, Mr. Kunkel mentioned that our current replacement target is 32 miles, and that is accurate. We are targeting 32 miles of projects to be put out for bid during this fiscal year. And you'll note that that is a reduction from the previous year, though it reflects the 1 percent replacement rate that Mr. Kunkel referred to. And really one of the real drivers for reducing the rate was the increased costs and the need to keep a budget that is able to meet all the various needs of the department at the same time. COUNCIL CHAIR YOUNG: Thank you. Mr. -- there was a question about -- or Mr. Kunkel's testimony, he mentioned that it's a policy that requires the customer to own the entire service lines, right? So if that's a policy of the PWD, can you just talk to us about what are some other policies that some other cities -- what do other cities do regarding the entire service line? Because I'm just thinking -- I'm just saying this out loud, because we live in a city that is constantly talked to -- talked about as one of the poorest cities in the country, and we have a high rate of low-income homeowners. And I know you mentioned these programs for low-income homeowners, but this is a policy. Why do we have a policy that can potentially keep people poor in this city? I mean, we have heard testimony of folks spending thousands of thousands of dollars that I know they don't have. So why do we have a policy that can keep people poor in this city?

So this -- it's not a policy. This is actually a legal issue. And as Mr. Kunkel referenced, you know, the -- in the city of Philadelphia, residents, and as I mentioned in my testimony, own their water service, the line that connects them to the public water main from the point of connection to the main, through the curb stop, which is a required fixture in the footway that allows you to turn water off inside the home, and then into the home and all internal plumbing. Sewers. Obviously, sewer service flows back towards the sewer, but the boundaries of ownership are identical for both water and sewer service. So the homeowner owns all of their internal collection system plumbing out to their curb trap and vent pipe. We heard some mentions of vent pipes in the footway earlier today. And then all the way through to the point of connection with the sewer system. This is how it is in Philadelphia. It is -- it is true it is not how it is everywhere. In some neighboring communities here -- there are a couple different arrangements that can exist. I think that it's really just up to like whoever was writing the rules when the rules were written. In some places it is -- COUNCIL CHAIR YOUNG: So essentially, are you saying that we -- there's a local ordinance that mandates that the residents own that portion?

Correct. COUNCIL CHAIR YOUNG: So us as a City Council can review that ordinance and make certain changes if necessary.

I believe that is possible. I think the -- you know, as the water utility, right, we are a fee-for-service utility that, you know, our community members invest in these services by paying their bills. And we take custody of those and try to make use of them in the most effective and efficient way possible. It represents the interest of all of the people of the City of Philadelphia. And I think it is possible to make a decision like that. I would just caution that, like, that dramatically increases the cost to the Department of Services. So when we were -- if we were to come through and do, say, a sewer relay, instead of replacing our sewer and replacing laterals to the edge of our -- excavate the necessary excavation width, we would then be forced to extend all the way out into the footway. We did some quick number crunching and estimated that, like, over the lifetime of our program for sewer replacement, this would be like a billions-of-dollar kind of additional financial burden on the department. Since we're fee-for-service, both our operating costs and our capital fund, which is typically debt-financed through bond issuance, those costs are rolled into our rates. So a change in the demarcation of ownership transition would directly impact the services we provide, the cost of those services, the cost of our investments, and it could lead to rate increases. COUNCIL CHAIR YOUNG: I understand that. And, you know, we -- as a body, it's our job to come up with the budget, right? And so when there's increases in cost of services, you know, you guys come and ask us for more money. But I do think that this is an issue that every Philadelphian, every property owner in Philadelphia has experience with this: these laterals, the curb traps, everything, and it's a huge burden on the residents of the city. And I think if -- as a city, we're -- if our job is to provide service and provide quality service, we have to look at how we are doing that job and providing that -- this service. I mean, we're -- we own the Water Department, right? The city owns the Water Department.

Absolutely. COUNCIL CHAIR YOUNG: And as the owner of this department, I think it is -- it's up to us to make sure that the customers, our residents, right, are getting top-notch service, one; and then two, they're getting the most bang for their buck when it comes to that service, right? I mean, I -- so if our counterparts in other places, other jurisdictions, are able to make it work where, you know, they're the owner of the entire system, I don't think there should be an issue here in Philadelphia why we can't make that work either. So -- but I'm going to defer to my colleagues who have any questions or any questions. Members of the committee. The Chair recognizes Councilmember Driscoll.

Well, thank you, Commissioner. And we do recognize in an aging city how complicated this gets. But in your new capacity as commissioner, is there an appellate process unit, something subset of your department that, when it reaches this level, at a committee hearing like this, that the folks that were here today, is there somebody that can review each of those cases to determine if and where something went wrong, if it -- how it could be cured? That sort of thing? I think, if we can move to that -- and I know you have, you know, a big department and you have a lot of responsibility, but I found in government, which I've been in for a long time, state government, both at the executive level and the legislative level in Harrisburg, we were able to communicate with departments that had, like, a legislative liaison or, you know, some sort of rapid-response unit. Because generally when it gets to our level, it's usually pretty serious, right? So, you know, we take these phone calls, and we can sort it out, for the most part, ones that may be routine and ones that may be very, very serious. So, I think we can be an asset to your department in the future. And as you take command of this department, I just offer that, like, we're not the enemy. We're -- I think we share the same goal that, you know, we want safe, clean water, and we want safe streets, and we want the rate payers to get a bang for their buck, fully knowing, which we're going to have another hearing on, you know, the rates that, you know, we all -- we all do share this common goal of keeping the rates down as best we can, by fulfilling your mission, the herculean mission you have of over 3,000 miles of these pipes. So I just throw that out there.

Yeah. So, a couple of -- did I -- oh, there we go. I think just a few items to respond to. You know, I did ask the Council Member's office for specific information on the complaints here, and I like -- I felt a little weird starting with my testimony instead of kind of turning around and being -- and saying thank you to you for coming here and helping us understand your experiences. My staff in the last two weeks and two days have probably heard me say, “We can do better,” a hundred times. And that's kind of the philosophy that I am trying to bring into my leadership in this department. And I do that because, like, it is -- it is a simple concept. It is not -- we're not -- we don't have to move mountains to do it. But it is -- it is a commitment to being attentive to the level of service we provide and being intentional about trying to deliver that in a better way. And if we can continue to do better every day, we will eventually move a mountain. Councilmember Driscoll, you and I have talked a little bit about communication issues. Councilmember Lozada, you and I have also talked a little bit about communication issues. We recently stood up a new system for liaising with Council Members. I should say, I really do want this partnership. I really value the connection that you all have to your districts and to your community members, and the voice that you bring to us on their behalf. And so, like, we are here for the partnership. My public relations team is here today. We are here for it. I understand that we set up a new communications system specifically to deal with Councilmember relations and legislative issues that has had some growing pains associated with it. And we are, like, willing to take the feedback and use it for something to try to do a better job. Communication is a lot of the problems that exist all the time everywhere, right? We heard communication issues from the residents here. I've heard communication issues from some of you. You know, Councilmember Phillips, I have tried to communicate with you as much as possible, just to, like, close that space a little bit so you realize that there's a partnership. And so, like, I just -- yes, I think -- and the simple answer to your question is, like, yes, we can analyze these specific cases and provide feedback to Councilmember Bass who left. We believe if we break it, we buy it. If our actions caused harm, we should be responsible for fixing the harm that was done. We have legal boundaries that we work with risk management on. Thank you, Councilmember Young, for mentioning them. But we are partners, and we work together, and we communicate regularly to try to bring services to the -- to the residents of the City of Philadelphia. COUNCIL CHAIR YOUNG: Thank you. Chair recognizes Councilmember Phillips.

Thank you, Chair. I thank you so much, Commissioner, for joining us today. I want to be on the record by saying that I think that, you know, now that you are officially the Commissioner and no longer Acting Commissioner, I think you have the ability to not only prove myself wrong but all of us wrong in this room, in terms of what you can do and how you can -- you know, what the leadership and administration at the Water Department can do to deliver on customer service at a better rate. I just want to ask you a few questions. Are there staffing or budget constraints preventing timely maintenance in neighborhoods? Like, for example, when the neighbor mentioned earlier today that, you know, “We'll come back -- we'll get back to you.” That's a response that I've heard a lot of times from the Water Department with no timeline or deadline. What's the constraint when it comes to getting people timely responses?

So I think, like -- probably like all city departments and like all businesses everywhere, right? There are budget and staffing constraints. It really kind of -- it depends on what the specific service is, what those constraints are. I do want to echo that, like, I believe that we should be good to our word. And so if we're going to tell someone -- if we're -- if we are setting an expectation, we should be following through with that. And so I am -- as we dig back into some of these cases, very curious who said Thursday and who didn't deliver Thursday, right? Because we can -- we can manage through that as a department. But we do face staffing constraints. Certain types of job functions require specialized skills that are only able to be delivered by very specific civil service titles. Difficulties in staffing a single title can create a ripple effect through services that we provide. There are some that can be supplemented with contract resources and some that cannot. There are obviously, like, specialized vehicles and equipment that are involved, and they need to be in service and able to operate when we need to utilize them. We are in budget season right now. And so we are having some of those conversations about, like, what our staffing levels are, what our expectations for service -- the services we provide is, and whether we need to ask for more people. Because in the end, like, it's the connection that we make with our community members that is a big part of how they feel about us in delivering our services. And I heard Police Commissioner Bethel give a speech last year where he talked about, like, that you might only get one chance for a resident to experience your services, and if you do a good job with that chance they'll tell all their friends. And if you do a bad job, they'll tell all their friends. And so that's the kind of mentality that we want to bring into providing the services that we do, which are essential to the same.

I think that's really important because, you know, with Mayor Parker's other administrative appointments as well as all the other departments, I've seen improvements. It's not where it needs to be, but I've seen light- years' worth of improvements with the exception of this department. So hopefully going into this one and as its leader, we can see tremendous growth. Because one of the growth areas that I want to mention, before I turn it back to the Chairman, is that the expert did say that there's a goal -- PWD's current replacement goal of 32 miles per year is noble, but still not adequate to renew the system quickly enough to lower the break rates that we're seeing. He's saying that it should be approaching 40 miles of pipeline replaced each year. This is the first time that I've heard this and read this. And to me, I think that, you know, as a leader of the department, you should be championing whether or not we're meeting our goals at a steady rate when it comes to replacing these pipelines that are causing damages in people's homes. So what -- the question I have is that: What are you going to do to communicate and be more public with how we're meeting deadlines to replace pipes in the city?

So we are -- you know, we launched an initiative to kind of take a step back and take a hard look at our capital improvement program in the department probably six or eight months ago. And it was to kind of -- for a variety of reasons: one is we're seeing the need for additional investment. It's not just the water distribution system that's aging. All of our infrastructure is of a certain age and requires investment. And we wanted to make sure that we were making the best decisions about where to spend those dollars that we were accountable to. Metrics, goals, and service level goals for each of the pieces of the capital improvement program as we move from, like, we've identified a pipe that needs to be repaired to we've done the inter-utility coordination to understand what it looks like underneath the street, to we've designed the infrastructure improvement solution and then bid and contracted and then managed through construction in the street. And, you know, our operating budget provides a lens for us to kind of look at how we're delivering those services. We understand that, you know, capital improvement is hard for people who are living on a street where we're doing work. And we want to be present, we want to be accountable, we want to make sure we are respecting what they deserve from a quality of life while we're doing that work, and that we don't come back again during their lifetime. So we're in the process of taking a look through kind of our whole capital portfolio and ensuring that we can be forward-looking, thoughtful, accountable, making the best investments, and measuring success and delivering success.

And that's pretty much my last question. I just have to comment on that. That's where the problem is, right? Carlton Williams will come in here and he'll say, “By June of this year, we will have the assessment completed.” Or, you know, Rich Lazer, he'll say, “By May, this is going to be done,” right? With the Water Department, I don't know what it is, what's going on, why is it so complicated? You all don't believe in deadlines. Like, that's what I'm getting. I don't get -- we don't get dates, times. It's like, “We're working on it.” And I think for a resident, and then for a City Councilmember who has to listen to our residents, the idea “We're working on it” is not okay. So if you want to build a relationship with City Council, you have to create your own timelines and then come back to us and say, “Here's our deadline. We will guarantee that we're going to have a certified answer or some sort of progress report by this time.” And I think that is the lack -- that is the communication breakdown, for example. And then the other part is that even on Sylvester Street in our district, we have a report that there was a water main break repair. And then the Water Department says it's a Streets Department issue. And so the problem becomes -- it's like you're doing this soft handoff, but how are -- the question I have is, what's the protocol for determining that soft handoff? And then once you hand it off to another department, isn't it still your responsibility to make sure that other department handles it? Because we're all one city, right?

I completely agree. You know, the Water Department and the Streets Department work very closely and intentionally together all day, every day. Leadership from the two departments, we meet regularly. There are regular check-ins, both on a highway district basis to ensure that issues managed --are managed on a somewhat more local level, and then citywide with the Streets Department, Water Department, and a variety of different utilities. There is a handoff of responsibilities. So -- and I'm not exactly sure what the Sylvester Street issue is, but if there was indeed a water main break on a PWD water main, it is our responsibility to find it, dig down on the main, repair that main, and then we also have a responsibility to backfill and provide appropriate compaction, cold patch that ditch, and then we make a referral over to the Streets Department. Now that does not end our responsibility. We own that ditch for 45 days after we complete the work. So if the issue that the neighbors on Sylvester Street are complaining about is a Water Department excavation that has settled, which is something we see all over the city, with all kinds of utilities and private contractors, and it's as new as you are suggesting, certainly the Water Department should be going out there and restoring that ditch back to a safe level so that our residents can drive their streets safely. And we will look into it and find out what's happening there. I will have someone drive by and inspect the location, and if it is ours to take care of, we'll take care of it.

I thank you so much, Chairman. I just want to say, I think you just -- I think you're going to have to get out there with all of your -- and model the leadership that you want to see, because clearly there's a disconnect, and I think it's just -- all of this needs to be modeled. They just told -- what was that, 67, Mike? Six -- he just showed me. Sylvester -- I'll get you the address.

Thank you. Appreciate it.

Right, yeah, I just think, yeah, it's a lot. I'll send the questions formally, but thank you, Councilwoman Lozada, for putting this together. COUNCIL CHAIR YOUNG: Thank you, Councilmember. Just a quick follow-up. You mentioned that the Water Department owns that ditch for 45 days, essentially, right? Is it 45 days from when you guys start, or is it for like -- because with the Streets Department it takes more than that 45 days to -- in order to get the -- so who's responsible? Like, that's what folks want to know. Like you have 45 days. Does the Streets Department timeline start when your 45 days is up? Is it concurrent? Like, how does that -- how does that work?

So our responsibility, what we do is we send to the Streets Department what we call a highway permit. It is through our work order management system. Our system and the Streets Department systems are connected digitally. And our responsibility for that excavation is 45 days from when we submit that permit to the Streets Department. COUNCIL CHAIR YOUNG: Is there data on how long it actually takes to fill that hole in? Do we have that information available to us from the entire city? From when there's a break, for example -- like the break that happened in my district on Friday. All right, we know what happened. Is there -- is there data that says, “All right, on this date something happened; on this date it was complete -- fully complete from Streets and Water”? Is that information available to members of council?

I can speak to what's in our work management system. I am not familiar with what is in the Streets Department's management system. So I can't tell you precisely what kind of information is available beyond what's inside my department. The 9th and Montgomery, I think, was the location of that large main break that occurred on Friday. COUNCIL CHAIR YOUNG: Yes.

You know, and I need to, like, thank our distribution crews who mobilized immediately and in two hours shut down a break that discharged 4 million gallons -- COUNCIL CHAIR YOUNG: 4 million, not million, yes. million.

-- of treated water, but had the potential of 70 million gallons a day. They responded and within two hours had the shut on that -- on that transmission main. That location probably will be a little different because of the size of the issue. There are really kind of two ways that we can go with restoration. One is, we refer it over to the Streets Department and they take care of it. For large jobs that are kind of, like, outside what's normal, the Water Department does maintain an emergency roadway repair contract with one of our construction contractors. And so one of the evaluations we'll be doing currently, and it might be done already -- I'm not sure -- will be: is this us or are we handing this off to Streets? And if it's us, then the Water Department will contract for street and footway restoration directly. And, you know, we will be accountable for all of those steps from break until the roadways return to the city in the condition they expect it to be. COUNCIL CHAIR YOUNG: Thank you. Chair recognizes Councilmember Lozada.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Forty-five days for us, we own the Water Department, right? If there's a water main break, we're responsible for that ditch 45 days and beyond, right? We have to be responsible for that water main break 45 days or beyond because it's our -- it's us, we are the owners of that street. And so I think that we need to -- we need to change how we think, right? We recognize that our infrastructure is old, right? We know that we're having these cave- ins and these water main breaks all over. We need to take on -- we need to understand that there's no -- there should be no timeframe of how long we own that ditch. That is our ditch. It's our ditch. It's not New Jersey's ditch, Montgomery County's ditch. It's our ditch. So we need to -- we need to change how we think about the issues that we're causing in neighborhoods. We heard Mr. Kunkel, in his testimony, say -- refer to the American Water Works Association setting a guideline that there were -- that -- of breaks per 100 12 miles. And then he also referred to 13 a study, an additional study that 14 was done, that an average break rate 15 of water utilities across the U.S. is 11 breaks per 100 miles. And so if we have that ditch that you referred to, that water main break that you referred to, how proactively are we looking 100 miles away to study and say there's a possibility? Everything -- all the studies are showing us that 100 miles from here, there's a potential break that can occur. Are we doing that? Are we proactively looking when we have these water main breaks? Are we looking 100 miles in every direction to make sure that those pipes are solid and that we don't have to respond now before we cause greater damage or that we don't cause stress to the residents in that neighborhood, considering that we've just had a rate increase in the city? Are we doing that at all?

So yeah, I mean, what -- when Mr. Kunkel described how we evaluate likelihood of failure and consequence of failure, that likelihood of failure measure is based on kind of our experience and the acute issues that are impacting the City of Philadelphia as it relates to not just the kind he spoke of: material, joint type, field condition, but it also is, you know, a living evaluation of what kinds of failures we've seen in the field. You know, we add to that maintenance history that helps us understand and reconsider and reevaluate, and have what is our most accurate understanding of where conditions are going to be more likely that there'll be a main. And we use that to help reprioritize our planning process. The break at 9th and Montgomery was a 30-inch cast iron water main. For large main breaks, we go a step further. We take the mains to our materials laboratory, and we do, like, a very thorough material analysis. And we use that to help understand, like, what was the cause of failure? Were there external factors? Were there internal factors? And that can help us with trying to kind of reprioritize where we're making those larger-scale investments on those larger mains that can have a more significant impact.

So as you're doing that analyzing, are you connecting with residents proactively to say, “Hey, this is the likelihood of your -- of your -- of your infrastructure. You know, these are the possibilities. This is how you can proactively protect your pipes,” right? You know, how do you communicate proactively before there's a water main break, before we have to tell people that there are broken laterals, right? You have seniors here. And so how do we protect those seniors who have been living in their homes for generations, right? Who are thinking, I'm good, right? I've lived in this home for 30, 40, 50 years, and I should be okay, not realizing that underneath there's deterioration, right? That's number one. Number two, how are we communicating with those neighborhoods that have a high number of developments occurring in their communities or on their blocks, and who are impacted as a result of that new construction? And are they, right? Is that a real possibility, or is this something that people are saying is happening in their neighborhood and it's really not? Like, if we are hearing it enough, then we have to start looking at the possibilities of development impacting some of the infrastructure in our older homes.

Let me see if I can try to -- so your first question about --

I want you to -- I want you to explain it in a way that whoever is in the neighborhood watching this, and some of my seniors here, that they can understand it, right? I don't want us to be technical. I want us to demystify it in a way that people are going to be able to understand it because this is something we hear every day.

Sure.

This is not just -- this is not just one or two of my constituents. This is consistent complaints that we're getting. And for somebody like Councilmember Young and myself who have had a high amount of new builds in our community, we hear this -- we hear this more often, and so something has to -- there's got to be some correlation.

So, as it relates to helping people understand what their responsibilities are in the field, what we're doing proactively to try to address our financial responsibilities, what kind of tools we have available to help people in the event that they need them -- this is where my employees roll their eyes at me again. Like we -- I talk a lot about trying to tell our story, right? And making sure that people understand, like, who we are, what we do, why we're here, what we've learned from operating and maintaining a vast system of water mains and sewers, and helping people appreciate how they can prepare themselves, how they can protect themselves. Because, like, the one thing that's true of every plumbing system is that at some point it's going to need reinvestment. You know, we spend two -- our capital budget for water mains is $200 million for FY26. I don't expect anyone else to be spending that money. But like, it is true that when we replace a water main on a street that was built in 1904, it's most likely that the services and the homes are that age also. And, you know, we do replace water mains and services to the curb stop, so, like, we provide that to our customers when we do that work. But I think one thing that people probably don't understand, and one thing that's really hard to plan for, are these very expensive repairs that you don't need until you need it. But once you need it, you really do, right? Because it's life-sustaining services that are provided through these very two small pipes. So, you know, as we were preparing for this, I was kind of talking to my public relations staff about the kind of information that we have available, that we've already produced, you know, language access as it relates to that. You know, I -- the partnerships that we have with all of the Council Members and all of the districts to try to reach into the space where our residents are, and help them understand. You know, Laura Copeland behind me in public relations was like, “Do you want to bring the big picture of services and laterals?” I didn't bring that today, but we can bring that into the community, and we can be there to help people understand. So you also asked about development. And development is a little harder for, like, me as a water utility to try to attack, but certainly is, like, something that is impacting the City of Philadelphia all over. And, you know, we have a role in regulating some development. We have to approve connections to water mains. We have to approve connections to sewers. We go out and do inspections for laterals when the plumbers are there trenching to do the work. I believe, as Councilmember Harrity said, that there's a lot of work that's happening that isn't happening through the proper channels. And that's a really difficult issue that probably requires, like, a whole-of- government kind of solution to be working on. But you know, development is a difficult thing in all neighborhoods. And I think, like, we're here to try to figure out if we can play a role in helping address and alleviate some of these issues and concerns of these neighbors. And it -- I think as we hear more about what their experiences are, it will be easier for us to understand kind of, like, what our place is in providing that assistance that can help, you know, not just the 7th District, but all the districts which are being impacted by this.

Respond to -- how do you respond to some of the issues that we've heard across the district, that the city was here, there was a water main break where there was a small hole. The hole continued to grow. We've called and called and called. The city doesn't come. Now we have a huge water main break. City comes and replaces it, repairs it. A few months later, you have another issue in that same general area. A few months pass -- and I have a very specific situation like that, and we will talk about it later. But how do you respond to some of those repeat incidents in certain neighborhoods? Is it that the repair is not being done appropriately? Is it the contractor? Is it us and our failure to follow up and inspect the work? How do we respond to that? Because a lot of the issues that I often hear about is the contractor didn't show up. We heard that earlier today, right? I've been told that the contractor's going to come back, and it's been six to eight weeks and the contractor has never shown up, right? And now the dirt that was thrown on top of it has now -- has now kind of washed away and it's causing more damage to my property.

So, you know, there's a lot of work happening in the city all the time, every day, by a lot of different people. And when I -- the story about the excavation spoils being put over top of a vent pipe and causing a sewer blockage that led to sewer in their -- we call what we call water in cellar, but sewage in their basement. You know, like, I want to follow up -- I want to pull that thread because I need to understand if that contractor was working for us, because if they are, they're us. And I don't view it any other way. They are. And I have -- I just -- I want to be sure that the services we are providing are being delivered in a manner that we would expect, whether it's my employees or contract services. We've been talking through a few issues in budget this season, including some work that we're going to be doing in neighborhoods as it relates to lead service line replacement. We're piloting some initiatives with some grant and low-interest loans through PENNVEST, some of which will be impacting the 7th District and some in Southwest Philadelphia. And as we talk about it, you know, I have -- I said this yesterday, I said, when we have contractors out in the field doing work, we need to be present. And Councilmember Lozada, we talked about this in your office a few weeks ago. We're not done until that sidewalk block is poured and the condition is returned to what we would expect in front of our own home. I know that there are times when we deliver that level of service, and there are times that we do not. And we are working, I am working, to set a different expectation: that is, we will be there, and we will ensure that those people who are working as contractors on our behalf are delivering services to the level that we expect them to. And enforcing that through on-site inspection with PWD personnel in order to make sure that that's happening.

How many contractors are on the Water Department list?

Are we talking plumbers or --

That do work for you, right? That are responsible for -- that the Water Department says there's a cave-in at this location or there's new construction in this location or whatever. How -- who do we send out, right? If there's an issue and we're responsible for it, how many contractors can you choose from to send out for a particular job?

I will get you a specific number after this hearing, but we -- our estimate is around 20. And those -- so just to give you a little bit of an understanding of the question that I'm answering, in case you want to reframe it or in case I'm misunderstanding it. So we have contracts with licensed private plumbers, and they're administering a couple programs for us. The Homeowner Emergency Loan Program, our HELP program, which is the zero-interest loan that we offer to residents who have plumbing issues that are their responsibility to repair. We administer another program through a different contract mechanism, but it's very similar, where if we cause the issue, we are contracting with plumbers to repair and replace private plumbing infrastructure. So those -- the current estimate, which we'll follow up with specific details on for those two contracts, is around 20.

And of that list -- and of that list, how many complaints have you gotten from residents regarding the work that was provided and how often, and do you even assess that?

I know that we have gotten complaints at times. I am -- I'm not able to quantify that right now. We do hold those plumbers accountable to the work that they're doing, right? Like, we are contracting with licensed master plumbers who are governed by a licensing board. And in the event that the work that they do is not up to satisfactory standards as we deem ourselves, we require them to go out and redo it at their cost, not at ours.

I think that's part of the work that we need to do, right? Because if we're hearing consistently you're sending out a plumber or a contractor, and we receive -- and it can't just happen in the 7th, right? I think I speak -- when I'm speaking, I'm speaking across the City of Philadelphia, you're sending certain contractors out that are not representing you as the Water Department or us as the City of Philadelphia. You're not representing us appropriately, right? If that plumber or that contractor continues to do work that's not up to par, then we should not be using them. And so if you're not assessing their work, if you're not monitoring how many complaints are coming in or how many risk management complaints are being put in as a result of the work that this particular contractor is doing, then shame on us, right? We have to do better at that. And while I recognize that you are new to the position, I'd like to hear from you, you know, in your -- during your first few months as commissioner, what are some of the things you've put in place that you know -- you've worked with the Water Department before, right? You're the new commissioner. But you -- what are some of the things that you know had to change immediately or in the long run, right? What are you doing to make your department more efficient, more effective, more responsive, more accountable? What -- if you -- in your position that you're in now, can you tell me five things that you know that you've done or that you need to do in order to be able to respond to those things?

So I think the first thing is, like, I'm trying to set a tone. And like, my background is in operations. I have a decent understanding of how things work in this department. My background is primarily sewer operations, so the water side of the operation. I learn every day how we do the work, how we deliver the services, what the impact is on the residents of the City of Philadelphia. And that's one of the things I value. For me, it's like, if I'm not growing, why are we here? So some of the things that we've identified, and some of that's been through cooperation with the Council Member's office, is this need to be more present when we're contracting work out to our plumbers. It's why we're talking in budget about whether we need to staff additional people in order to do that. We are in the process of completing all of our internal PWD budget hearings. We do those through -- at the unit level. And then we will be spending the month of November reviewing those requests and considering what's approved, what's not, what kind of management decisions we're going to make, and how we're going to leverage those requests in order to do a better job. I mentioned to Councilmember Phillips that we're in the process of a capital improvement program review. We, in August, had two employees retire on the same day. Their combined experience was 83 years. We are in the process right now of working to -- now that I've been appointed, working to hire a new deputy commissioner of engineering. The thought of 83 years of experience walking out the door is -- can be scary. But, like, it's an opportunity for us. There are people in positions in this department. There are people outside this department that have amazing experience, new perspectives, new ways of thinking about things, new ways of thinking about how we deliver our services. And so, you know, change is the only thing that's always going to be true, right? And so, you know, as we move forward with finding our new deputy commissioner of engineering, this capital improvement program evaluation is really going to help set the stage for them stepping into a leadership position and trying to transform what is a very complicated program that involves a whole host of design engineers and then a very large staff of construction engineers. I think for our department that there's room for us to do better, to deliver those services, to be present in the neighborhoods at a higher level, to ensure that we're being respectful and responsive to the needs of residents who might have mobility issues when we're in the road doing construction work, to the cleanliness of our work sites so that dust is not an impact in people's homes. So I think, you know, there's a lot there to make some real incremental progress to do better, but also set this department up for -- I said to someone the other day, we're going to make -- the goal is to make decisions in the next two to three years that set us up for success in the next 20 to 30 years. And, you know, that's the kind of timeline that we're looking at for trying to make some real change that is tangible and can be felt right now, but also sets this department up for a future of success. Because this department was here a long time before me. I love how you say we all own this department. I was thinking about it as I came in here today. It was like, I'm just a caretaker. It's not mine. And we take care of this for the residents of Philadelphia. Many people did it before us. Many people will do it after us. And our goal is to make it better and leave it better when it's time to hand it over to someone else.

I appreciate your response. I just think that -- you know, I agree with Councilmember Phillips, right? We need to be able to set goals for ourselves, right? As city departments, we need to do better at oversight. We need to be able to communicate better with our ratepayers, especially if we're considering or putting a rate increase in place, right? We have to do better at that. And if our infrastructure is old and we have neighborhoods where people have generationally lived in for many, many years, then we know that they're also older. And so we can't continue to burden them and expect them to pay more if we don't have anything in place that allows us to be more proactive -- or as proactive as we should be, right? Because again, you know, we get away with saying to residents, we recommend that you apply for this particular insurance because it's going to help you pay for a situation in the future. But when you're representing one of the poorest districts in the City of Philadelphia, $7, $10, $20 may not be a big deal to you and I, but to someone who lives on a fixed income and counts every dollar that comes into their home, it has a huge impact. And so I am hopeful that the working group that Councilmember Bass spoke of and referred to earlier, that it actually happens and that we figure out how are we more responsive? How do we hold ourselves accountable before we say to residents of the City of Philadelphia, “We need you to pay more,” right? We need you to pay more. You have contractors. 19 With the age of our infrastructure, 20 I don't know if 20 is enough, and that may be a part of the problem, right? I didn't even ask you about the number of inspectors you have. And so, do you have enough inspectors? Do we have enough contractors? You know, how do we do better? I guess that's where I'm getting at. Because I may not be here tomorrow, but we can't continue to receive multiple calls about aging infrastructure and us putting the blame on the resident because they have a broken lateral -- because people have to park on their sidewalk because we have done everything we can to make streets smaller. Whether it be because we had to abide by handicap rules or because we allowed for poles to be; there are so many things that cause people to have to park on sidewalks, which is illegal, and they get tickets. And then the Streets Department gets away with saying, “Well, they shouldn't be parked on the sidewalk,” but they have to park on the sidewalk in order for emergency vehicles to come by, right? There are all these reasons that we create that cause some of the damages that residents are experiencing, right? And so I just want us to be -- I want us to have a little bit more common sense, right? And I may be asking for a government that has common sense, I may be asking for too much, right? But I also want us to be proactive. And I also -- I want us to start holding ourselves accountable so that we can hold those who represent us in the community accountable so that we're not causing additional trauma, burden, and frustration to people that we say we want to keep living in our city. Thank you, Mr. Chair. COUNCIL CHAIR YOUNG: Thank you, Councilmember. Chair recognizes Councilmember Harrity.

Glad my colleague asked. She just said inspectors. I'd like to know how much you're budgeted for in employees and how many actual employees you have and how many are short. Inspectors are just one part of it. My street's one of those streets that are collapsing. We've had this conversation. I've put in numerous things about it. As a highway worker and somebody who's worked in the trench, we know that every time you dig it up, you risk affecting not only the place that you're digging up, but down the line. Things happen when you're out there on the job in that hole. You know, a lot of times we have to wrap a strap around that pipe, pull it up a little bit, or that loosens it, that cracks it, that does other things. But we don't know that because we're only digging up this section. What else happens is I come down, I fix this young lady's lateral, the laterals are right next to each other. So while I'm fixing her lateral, I undermined his lateral. Now the next thing you know, his lateral breaks. The frustration is that I actually put a bill in that would help with this, where it gives us the thing to find and go after these bad actor contractors. Because we know that most of the time, the person who got the work done, it's in their bill for a permit. They just didn't pull it. And that's why they pack it down a little bit, throw a little asphalt on top of it. But if Streets Department doesn't come out and do it the right way, we're going to have the same thing happen. And because that one is now being pushed down, it's going to break the laterals on either side of it. So now you've got a bigger problem going. And listen, I get it. You -- you know, things have to be done a certain way. And that's when we did the bill, we actually took you guys out, because I understand about phases where you put one phase in and then have to come back a couple months later after it settles and put the next phase in, right? But that still doesn't deal with the issues of the fact that every time we dig up a street for whatever reason it is, we are causing just as much damage. If we're not fixing the whole block, you're just going to come -- like, come to my street. I'd love you to come out, check out my street and see how many holes we have going down the street, and come outside my house and see how the curb and the sidewalks are all -messed up (CHECK)(curse word). Oops, sorry. I did it again. My apologies. But I get aggravated, and I get frustrated because this is the same conversation over and over and over again. And I feel this young lady's thing. My poor neighbor had the insurance, right? They broke his lateral when they were fixing something else. Insurance came out first time and absolutely fixed it right away. Problem is, they came back out, parked on his dirt because there was no concrete in there yet, and snapped it again two days later. Now he calls back for them to come back out because he has the insurance, and they tell him basically pound sand, we fixed it once. On that note, he had a private contractor come in, fix it, right? Got the insurance again. Two weeks later that lateral was broken again, because again, they hadn't come out and put the concrete in that hole yet. This is all avoidable stuff. As I said, you know, we have a means to hold these contractors accountable. A lot of this stuff isn't you guys. A lot of this stuff are these contractors that are doing this stuff illegally and hurting our residents. And I just don't understand why we're not enforcing it. And part of it is because when we ask the question of how much are you budgeted for in employees and how many employees you have, it never matches up. The same thing. And I get it, we're all having a hard time finding people, but there are things that we can do. There are things that I don't know why people aren't looking to, for certain. We're short of inspectors.

Has anybody gone to the Building Trades and asked for -- to talk to some of their retirees who may be looking for that job? Because they may have retired from their trade because they're not able to completely do that trade. But they could definitely be an inspector, and come out and do it. And then our problem is solved. We have enough of these inspectors. Because I get it, we put the law in, but Montgomery doesn't have enough employees to enforce it. So what do we do then? So now we got a law that could help us with the situation, but we ourselves have no employees to actually go out and do it. And it's just -- the circle just keeps continuing. And then we keep having this meeting, and we get frustrated because we're hearing the same answers over and over again. It just may be a new face, but it's the same answers.

So, you know, obviously my span of control is more narrow than all of the contractors working in the City of Philadelphia. I can say that when we made the decision to scale back on the mileage of water mains that we were going to be relaying, one of the issues was our ability to staff inspectors. It's one of the more difficult positions in the city from my seat, is construction projects technician. We have just struggled mightily to try to staff that role, and they're used all over. And so as we were ramping up on mileage to try to increase our investment, we found that our construction unit was starting to get overwhelmed by the work. Now we've supplemented some of that work with contract services. But, you know, we would rather have a civil service employee that is a resident of the City of Philadelphia that is working for this department as a full-time employee providing those services that we can, you know, mentor, grow, keep in-house, develop their career. You know, there's an event I'm excited about: the community college for municipal employees, and the potential for that to help develop some pathways to employment to help fill some of these really difficult-to-staff positions, because they're essential to ensuring that the expectations that are placed in our contract are there.

Same thing that we don't already know about them being essential. The fact of the matter is here, that we keep passing stuff and we keep doing stuff that's supposed to help, but then they can't enforce it. All right. So for instance, I first got here in a special election. The first thing I did was put $10 million into the budget for hard-to- hire positions: police, fire, and building inspectors was one of them. Police got theirs as far as I know. But again, wasn't enough money because we didn't take into account for retention. When you give somebody a bonus for signing up to work, you also have to do something for the employees that have already been there. But my frustration is -- here's my other question then. How long from application to interview for the Water Company?

I think it depends on what the vacancies are. And I think the civil service process exists inside the Water Department and inside the Office of Human Resources. So there's some sort of handoff that's happening where residents are applying to be qualified to be hired under a specific title, right? They're either testing by demonstrating their knowledge, skills, and experience, or they're submitting an application that shows their knowledge, skills, and experience. They're being approved to be eligible for a title. And then all of the departments in the city are saying, “I have a need. There's a list of qualified applicants out there that are able to meet that need.” And then we ask for them and interview. Once we get through an interview process, if there's a selection made, then there is additional administrative work: background checks, medical, depending on the title. In order to get someone in the door with their literal boots on the ground, right? Like being a contributor. Some of the timelines can be very short, some of them can be very long. Some lists will have one person on it, some lists will have a hundred people on it. So, like, the experience of any one individual who wants to work for the city in a specific title could be very different from someone in another title. But I think the kinds of challenges that you're highlighting are something that, like, all of the departments in the city are experiencing and, like --

Yeah, we would accept that if it was a specialized job and it took longer to find somebody, but a lot of these jobs that are sitting vacant are not -- I don't know, I get it, civil service and we got to abide by what we got to do, but maybe we think we need to start looking at waivers to get employees. The fact of the matter is that we need employees. We can't run a city without people to do that job. That's why I'd like you to give me a list of all the jobs you're short with your budget or whatever it is.

Absolutely.

I'd also like for you to let me know how long it takes from application to actual call, to an interview. If that means they have to take the civil service test in between there, what's the timeframe from application to taking the civil service test, to being offered a job, to start the job. Thank you.

We will provide you with the information that you've asked that is Water Department specific, and are happy to work with the Office of Human Resources and CAO to provide the additional information as well. COUNCIL CHAIR YOUNG: Chair recognizes Councilmember Lozada.

In addition to that, can you just tell us what the actual number of vacancies are in the Water Department? Can you tell us now or do you need to come back to us? And then if you can tell me now the number of vacancies, that'd be great. I'll take that. But then when you submit the report, if you can break it down by position, right? Tell us what some of the challenges are.

Great.

You know, I don't know. The Madam Mayor, you know, has done a lot of work around breaking down some of the barriers around our workforce, right? And so has there been a conversation for some of these hard- to-fill positions? And is it because there are barriers that we can respond to and change now, right? Is that a conversation we can have? And so if you can tell me the number of vacancies now, great. And then later on, if you can share with us what those positions are and what the requirements are, and then what you foresee some of the challenges are around filling them.

So if I can ballpark you, we're -- we have about a little more than 2,200 employees actively employed and around 2,600 approved positions. So the delta's three to four hundred. And I am happy to break it down by the job skills and job titles. When I interviewed with the Mayor for this role, one of the things we talked about while we were sitting there was the struggle we have getting electricians in order to do work in the city. You know, we have a really difficult time hiring electricians, and industrial electricians in particular. And so, you know, I think there's value in having this conversation. I'm happy to share the data that you've asked for.

So again, have you a follow-up question. I'm sorry. Again, have you gone to Local 98 and said you got a bunch of retirees, any of them looking to come and do this? I'm telling you, you'll find people, and they're already trained. They already have their journeyman book. Most of them are master electricians and stuff like that. That's what I'm just not getting it because I know my guys in the trades, you know, something like that where somebody's got their time, but they're not ready to retire yet. Moving over to that side is a step up where they can actually get a few more years in because they're not ready yet, but their body may not be able to do that complete work. I just don't know why we're not looking out of the box, why we're not calling these unions and saying, “Hey, who do you got on the bench?” First of all, we got people in the unions that are out of work. So it's not like, you know --

I really appreciate the suggestion. I would -- when we meet on your block and walk and talk, we'll be open to hearing some more of your ideas. The Mayor did discuss reaching out to the electrical workers union when we met. So I think those ideas are there, you know, it's the next steps, the actions that need to follow. And we're --

It's not the first time I brought it up.

We're here for it. COUNCIL CHAIR YOUNG: Thank you. Just to note, if you're looking for folks, this week there's going to be 10,000 Hispanic engineers in the city for a convention looking for jobs, right? So I think someone should go over to the convention center, right? There's 10,000 Hispanic engineers. We can find someone who can come work in the City of Philadelphia, I'm sure. And just to put on the record, I have just a question. We don't have to answer it now. I just want to follow up with you. Are there any requirements for pipe replacement when there is a multifamily dwelling built on lots that were formerly single-family lots? Because that -- I think that's an issue that this woman brought up today, is that our infrastructure typically wasn't designed to handle that type of density in certain places. And so what are the requirements on developers when the lots were formerly single-family but now have 200 units on it? So just as a question to follow up with later on.

Okay. COUNCIL CHAIR YOUNG: But with that, are there any other questions of this witness? Seeing none. Thank you so much. Thank you, everyone, for coming down to testify today. This concludes the joint hearing on this committee on Streets and Services and Transportation and Public Utilities. I would like to thank all of the witnesses for joining us today. This hearing will be recessed to the call of the chairs. This concludes the business before the joint committee today. And again, thank you so much for your attendance. (Joint Committees on Streets & Services and Transportation & Public Utility hearing concluded at 1:10 p.m.) C E R T I F I C A T I O N I hereby certify that the proceedings and evidence are contained fully and accurately in the notes taken by me of the above case, and this copy is a correct transcript of the same. _______________ Samanda J. Rios