and or whether that was provided in some type of PDF that was uploaded to Eclipse along with the
plans and whatever else was uploaded with the original application. Can you can you tell us
What was that today?
They apply with the plans and application was written in the detail tab where you apply.
where you apply and it was applied both you need to use and new construction and the usage
And it was applied both.
You need to use and...
and they then all the required documents they uploaded in the eclipse the original one as
for their plan and the application i have sent to the civic design after tv design they have
changed little bit plan they uploaded and then i have issued the permit right so you're saying
the original application was what they was what they typed into the text box in eclipse
and then one set of drawings that was what was submitted originally correct got it and uh the
plans that mr reuter was referencing which i'm going to pull up here which are included in my
exhibit book at tab eight um if i if i could interject uh just briefly uh and again uh mr
orfanides or mr toner when did you send over the exhibit book to the zoning board last last
thursday what's that to do you send that to all council i mean i'm not saying you didn't i'm just
trying to oh we we had it we had it no we did not you you did not send it to no to us no
can you provide that now yeah yeah i can forward it i can forward you i mean it's
part of the record now so hold on a second would you like me to email you that's fine thank you
so i can email you a link uh yeah probably a link because it looks like it's large and it
won't get through our email system i apologize i apologize mr reuter i thought i did forward
you a copy of that i don't believe so but um i will double check and also check with uh because uh
um ms okapua and ms white uh should have been copied on everything i'll also ask
uh either of them if they received it thank you okay would the board like me to take this time
right now to email this to mr reuter there's no need to do that mr orifanidis i'll take care of
it right now thank you just sent them uh sharon i just sent it to them as well okay thank you
okay at least to carl and leonard and then you can forward it to their other attorneys
sorry about that everybody um so mr hall um yeah still getting used to the
using this the zoom so uh mr reuter these are these are the plans that we agree these are the
plans that mr reuter was referring to earlier um they show a stamp similarly show a stamp by
streets dated April 29th. They're similarly dated April 20th, 2020.
So these look like the plans that you stamped and approved with the permit 010545.
There are two kind of points. One was issue and then after that they amend the application
as per the permit language as per civic design review and they uploaded another plan and then
i on january 13th i have stamped the emanate plan that would be the correct one 13th of january
mr reuter would you mind i'm i'm now slightly confused because i believe this is the plan that
you forwarded to us we forwarded sorry we forwarded uh two sets of plans uh and the two permits
and that was what i received from uh the department
and actually i believe they were also attached to your appeal right so the the ones that the
ones that you had up earlier were were the ones that were ultimately approved by the permit
correct that's my interest that that's my understanding yes and can you i i'm i'm not
testifying here and no i understand i understand i mean we so just to be clear i mean provided
these documents the end of last week and just so the board understands back in october we provided
a right to know request to lni and we were finally after considerable delays were uh provided the
uh provided the documents 300 approximately 300 documents last thursday which we haven't had
documents, 300, approximately 300 documents last Thursday.
necessarily at the time the process so um but i'm trying to get out of here mr paul i'm gonna have
to object to the discussion of that this is the first uh and i'm hearing or anybody's hearing
about a right to know request from busselton civic league regarding these documents of whatever
documents you obtained uh and again i should also say that right to know is not supposed to be used
for matters uh in uh that are in litigation so um uh but uh you know so the point is this again
mr hall so i'm just going to ask the question are these the plans that you approved or not
i have an objection what's that i have an objection out there yeah i don't want any discussion uh or
introduction of documents uh related or anything related to a right to know request that we were
never notified about uh in relation to this matter which i believe this appeal has been outstanding
for quite some time uh the right to know request was submitted before the appeals the permits were
issued and the appeals were filed.
It's just when the city finally
responded to it.
But in any event, I'm not
utilizing those documents right now.
I'm utilizing the documents that
one of the documents you provided
to us.
And I'm asking
Mr. Hall, which one is this?
I don't
actually remember because it's so hard to read. I can provide you later if you want to
because it is in the Eclipse. If you go to this application number GP2020-010545,
the last one, this is the combined one, that is the latest one. That is the amended plan.
i'm sorry say that again mr hall if you go to the application number cp 2020-010545
when you say go to the application number i don't understand what it what you mean
in the eclipse i i can't i can't do that i'm not the app i wasn't the applicant okay
so you know i'm you know this is a little bit of a drawback to you know using zoom because normally
i could use the exhibits that mr reuter had put up we could work off the same one so now i've got
to go back and i apparently have i have to document what which which plan we're looking at right now
um if i could interject uh not an object but interject here uh we may be able to or one of my
co-councils may be able to on redirect share her screen that can show the actual eclipse record
because again the public access I agree the public access to the eclipse does not allow the public
to actually look at all the background documents you're just simply getting a record of what was
issued and what was not so we we may be able to show the eclipse screens that indicate
uh what was on the original application just so we can explain to the board
um and i i don't think there'll be any objection to this but um let me know if there is when you
when you submit an application by eclipse you're basically just filling out an electronic form
there is no application in the old sense where we can say here's a piece of paper this is an
application that was filled out and this is what we reviewed that's not really how it works anymore
it's not how lots of things many things in the world don't work that way anymore everything is
electronic and everything is just a matter of the fact of an application having been submitted is
is just a an electronic record of the fact that there was an application but we may be able to
show uh how the application uh well i mean so again if you want us to try to do that now we
no no i think you need to i think i mean first of all you know when we i mean last week you had
indicated you provided us with all the information regarding the application and the and the permits
and approved plans that were issued um seeming that i mean i've received two sets of drawings
i'm thinking that there may have actually been three sets of drawings at this point
and whatever this material is we would like that provided i mean you're now well again
And this wasn't provided five days in advance.
We were not obligated to provide anything.
We are the appellees.
our cases rebuttal entirely if so uh we had no obligation to provide any documents with documents
Our case is rebuttal entirely.
So we have...
we did provide uh was gratuitous but nevertheless and again there is no application form to provide
i mean at best we can show you we can we could have sent a screenshot i suppose but we can show
the board that now i don't think you can do it that way with the zoom proceeding because they
have no way to capture that for the record so this entire thing is being recorded i i understand but
that's not how it's going to go up to that's not how it's going to go up to the courts if there's
an appeal i'm not going to review video um this is sharon they will actually but that's what it
would be possible for you mr reuter since there is going to be a second hearing um any document
that we can a screenshot that you think that's fine and again we explained this to uh all council
previously all council who are very well experienced in how eclipse works and you know again i i don't
think there's any dispute about what this application was for what the plans were that
were submitted we've now we've only got one hour left in this hearing and all we've been talking
about is an application or a the the existence of the fact that something was applied for
and plans that absolutely nobody is disputing and we we now have one hour left i mean i'm sorry
you rushing me through this case i mean are you do you have an objection is there any no is there
any dispute about the plans that were approved or what the oh yeah oh there will be but i haven't
gotten there yet. I'm trying to figure out what was applied for and then what came what came in
and what came out the and what came through the process and what came out through the out the
other end. Well this is primavera and I do have a running objection because Mr. Orphanides filed
an appeal with 20 objections. He must have seen something in order to raise so many objections
and now he has the witness that he can explore those objections and we're running time and quite
frankly this is expensive with legal time and it's abusive to the board i'm gonna i'd like an
offer of proof i'll object to that characterization offer let's have an offer of proof as to what he
wants this witness to answer and see if it's relevant but i think that we have two appeals
by two prominent attorneys with multiple objections and attachments of exhibits from
the city, which they are complaining about. Let's talk about that now. And then if and when we come
back, we'll have more exhibits that they can look at. But it just seems to me that there must have
been a lot of information that they examined in order to come up with such lengthy and detailed
appeals. Let's talk about their objections. And I'm getting to that, but obviously everybody
wants a foundation. And I'm also trying to get to what that part is. So I object to being rushed
through my case. It'll take as long as it'll take. I'm aware and I'm respectful of the board's time
and everybody else's time. But this is a very important matter to my clients. And we're going
to go through this case as we need to, unless the board tells me to do otherwise. I mean, at this
point whatever so the foundation is there's a permit that was issued i don't know we don't know
exactly we have issues with the permit that was issued and the plans that were approved
so we're trying to figure out how it got to that point we also don't know that what was actually
applied you know when you put in an application you're supposed to put in what you apply for
which we don't have we never have had because we're not the applicant and this came in through
a clip. So unless we provide an association code, we wouldn't have access to it. So the question is,
there's a lot of questions as to what was applied for here. What was represented to LNI, to this
examiner, as what was being applied for? Because part of our case, a large part of our case is
that there was a mischaracterization of the use. So I'm trying to establish, at least to show
that the examiner was provided certain information regarding this application that really didn't
indicate what it was. They may have called it a duck, but it's not a duck, which we'll get into
later in the case. It was a gorilla. It was an elephant. Excuse me, counsel. Excuse me. Yes, sir.
Can you proceed on without having that information? I mean, I can go. I can keep going.
i was just like if she doesn't have it then which she ultimately says she doesn't have
we were then to that council her council was going to provide it i believe she said she
believe she said she was going to provide it on the next hearing next time um if i can interject
was going to provide it on the next hearing next time if i can interject
that's fine and i was ready to move on but mr reuter wanted to share the screen and i think
it should be submitted in advance we are submitting we are sending around uh pdf uh pdf converted
converted uh screenshots of the applications and those should be received by everybody including
Ms. Zunkit and Ms. Soletta within a few minutes.
And we could still share a screen, but, or I can even, but that's fine.
Mr. Reiter, is it possible before the next hearing for you to go through the Eclipse
records and take screenshots of anything that would not be available to anyone other than
That's what I just said.
That's what we're doing.
We're actually-
Oh, the entire-
We have been doing this while Mr. Orfanides has been talking.
and we like I said I can also we will send those and you know if we want you know obviously the
board will want to see screen see them and we'll share those or Mr. Orvanides can share those or
Mr. Primavera or you know whoever. Okay thank you. Yeah and real quickly in light of the Mr.
Reuters objections regarding the right to no request you know I'd like to ask and confirm
whether any other in light of that objection whether any documents any other documents are
being withheld from the parties or from the board whether if i missed the hall upon direction or
otherwise i again the city was not obligated to provide any documents to anyone there is no
discovery in administrative hearings the current emergency rules and regulations of the zoning
board require parties to submit documents to the board that they intend to use with the exception
of rebuttal materials five days prior to the hearing our entire case we are the appellees
this is an appeal against lni the city's case is a rebuttal case we were not obligated to provide
any documents the permits that are being appealed were attached to the appellant's own appeals
they were they and we have stipulated that those are uh maybe part of the record as as uh are will
are the plans so again there's if if the and i believe you know again that the uh appellant uh
the busselton civic league has requested a subpoena from the board uh which we have opposed
the board has not ruled on the subpoena so until unless and until the board does that there aren't
any other documents. But that being said, we basically have provided all of the relevant
documents here, which are the plans and the actual permits. And we will give you the screenshots of
what was in the Eclipse application thing, form, whatever it's called. Mr. Roy, you are correct.
We have an outstanding request for subpoenas that would include some or all of the documents that
have been provided plus additional documents. At this point, you make the statement that all
relevant documents are before us have been provided or before us we we don't know obviously
there is no discovery in these proceedings so part of this is for us to sort out how we got to where
we are and whether things were handled and done properly uh and whether the permit was issued
properly which is really really what about about what a lot of what our case is about here um it's
about the permit that was issued so mr hall if i can get back to what i was excuse me david if i
can interrupt for just one minute before you start um leonard are you agreeing on the record
that you will provide mr orphanetes with all of the um requested documents well again which
requested documents we will provide documents relevant to these uh to these applications again
yes i think there's a presumption that there's thousands of pages of documents that are involved
in this and there's not no so i never said that we will give you and i have explained uh ad nauseum
how eclipse applications work basic the best we can do is send screenshots which we are going to
do so that's it so and eclipse or specific this is not a phishing expedition if there are specific
documents that they want tell me what they are and we will try to provide them unless there's
some reason why we believe that they need to be confidential listen and mr orphanetes would you
in turn be willing to provide the other parties copies of whatever information you received in