Leadership in the schools, 'cause I ask those questions, and they're really leading to this core concern. Based on personal anecdotal experience, I have visited the schools over the past year, and one observation I've made is where you have a strong principal, there are a series of other positives, and you can pick that up without anything even being said, initially walking through the door, and then you can do the probing and the questioning and discover that attendance is up for both students and teachers, the success of students from academic standpoint is better, there's greater parent participation, there's less school violence, and on and on and on. So, of course, the issue that it raises for me is, procedurally, what does the school system do with regards to the recruitment and training of principals? Because where you have strong principals, you have students doing better.
Let me just say one thing, and then I'll turn it over to Dr. Farmbry 227 3/6/01 - SCHOOL DISTRICT BUDGET because I think that your point is one that I share and I think it's important leadership in every organization, particularly a school, I think, is critical. I think one of the things that I've spent a lot of time on with Dr. Farmbry is meeting with our principals. As I indicated, we met with every principal probably -- I think it was in November. We just had another series of meetings with principals. We've done focus groups with them to understand what their needs are and so forth. One of the issues that we have, and I think it raises the whole leadership development issue of what you're talking about and I'll turn it over to Dr. Farmbry.
Maybe "young" isn't the right word, but in tenure, a group of principals. The average principal's tenure, I think, is six and a half years. Two-thirds have been in their positions less than five years, and I think 228 3/6/01 - SCHOOL DISTRICT BUDGET twelve percent are in their first year of service as principals. So that imposes upon us, you know, many --
-- major leadership development challenges, which, I know, are really at the heart of what we want to do educationally. So I'll turn it over to Dr. Farmbry.
Thank you. I am very interested in the whole area of principal leadership development, having been a principal and also just watching the growing numbers of people in the system who want to be principals, some for the very right reasons and some for reasons that are very questionable, and just making sure that people get a firm handle of what it really means to be a principal in this day and age, where the focus really is on instruction, should be on instruction, but a lot of other issues are there to deter your focus from instruction if you let it. I think it's very important that we as a district really look at making the right match 229 3/6/01 - SCHOOL DISTRICT BUDGET between the person and the needs of the site. As you are probably aware, we have a site selection process that does involve members of the community in picking a principal for a school, and then making sure that once the principal is identified, that they really do stay on top of the instructional needs of the school and really begin to galvanize the resources of the community to make school work.
So again to my question -- I appreciate that -- what happens with regards to training? Because there is a learning curve.
And while that learning curve is happening, you have teachers who may or may not be measuring up.
And consequently, where you don't have teachers measuring up, you have students who are not reaching their full potential.
What strategies 230 3/6/01 - SCHOOL DISTRICT BUDGET does the school system have in place, knowing that that reality is in our face? Separate from the teachers shortage, which is another phenomena that has to be reckoned with.
Yes. Initially principals go through a training period called "Lead," where they, in essence, get to do an apprenticeship principalship at two different sites. Then once they are appointed, in ongoing conversations with their cluster leader or whatever the organization is going to evolve into, there really is a real nurturing around what the developmental needs of that principal are. And then we as a district are putting together a program of ongoing principal leadership development, in concert with some of our local universities.
And as you may be aware, Act 48, which now says that anyone with a professional certificate must acquire credits in a five-year period, we're making sure that we as district are going to be able to have rich offerings for our principals. 231 3/6/01 - SCHOOL DISTRICT BUDGET
Lead -- yes. Once a principal passes both the written and the oral portion of the qualifying test to be a principal, they go into a program called "Lead," where they have two six-week internships at very different kinds of sites.
So that they can understand that being a principal at this site demands a whole different set of skills than maybe being a principal at this site.
Absolutely. Two final questions. What standards are used to measure Principal A from Principal B? How do you determine who's excelling and who's not? What factors use to consider that? And then, finally, what penalties, what reprimands do you have in place to take care of principals who are not living up to the job?
Okay, principals are evaluated like any other category of employee. Currently, the cluster leader is their first line 232 3/6/01 - SCHOOL DISTRICT BUDGET of evaluation. Over the past -- this is really, I guess, the third year of implementation of the principal performance appraisal model that is based on non-domains.
They're a cycle. And principals will sit down, and in consultation with their cluster leader, identify the areas that they really do need to address in terms of their own personal needs relative to the job according to these nine domains. And then the principals are rated and they are given pay increments based on their final evaluation. Of course, there's always the need for some people to be counseled out of a position.
And the need is always there for people to be aware of when that is 233 3/6/01 - SCHOOL DISTRICT BUDGET occurring and then to have the paperwork indeed substantiate the need for that person to be counseled out of that position.
Okay, then. I'll close by saying that I was invited to attend a Philadelphia Federation of Teachers workshop, where I heard -- you know, I was in the trenches and got a chance to hear from teachers who are living and breathing what it is like to have a strong principal. And their concerns were very compelling, and it really affirmed what I have picked up over the year in visiting schools myself, that where you have a strong principal, the school is receiving stars in so many other areas as well. So that's a signal that that portion of this management structure may require additional nurturing, and all of that comes with getting principals where they need to be.
Let me just say, if I may, about a month ago, Dr. Farmbry and I went out and toured a couple of schools with Ted Kirsch and Jerry Jordan, sort of like the odd couples doing the routine. But, you know, we really said we 234 3/6/01 - SCHOOL DISTRICT BUDGET wanted we wanted to see schools through their eyes. And I let them pick the schools and I didn't know what they would pick. I thought they would pick, you know, some of the, quote, the worst and so forth. And they picked, you know, two really good schools, you know, inner-city. And I said to 'em, you know, Why did you pick these schools? And they picked those schools because it was not only a strong principal but it was a strong principal with a good working relationship with the staff. That's my dream, that we have a partnership.
Because I can assure you of one thing: Unless we have a partnership, I don't care what size the deficit is, the educational deficit is going to continue. And so I think it's really important: strong relationship, good working relationships with teachers. And that's what I think we have to do.
I would just add, Councilwoman, to follow that through is that as we 235 3/6/01 - SCHOOL DISTRICT BUDGET look at that, think about the reorganization of the cluster system, it's so important to be able, again, to bring home to the schools to what good principals and principals who need a little more help and teachers how to create those environments, and the School District organization should only exist in order to help strengthen that and to facilitate that. So that's the focus, and we have to keep looking down instead of up.
I can continue, but I'll do that which is correct, Madam President. I will honor the rules and put a comment here, with the understanding that there will be another round of questioning.
Thank you so much. The Chair recognizes Councilwoman Blackwell.
Thank you, Madam President. I mentioned, I think, the truancy support center earlier. And, you know, we visited E.S Miller School recently. I think I mentioned 236 3/6/01 - SCHOOL DISTRICT BUDGET it this morning, but the day is so long, I just don't remember. And we have a new principal there and there's an excellent workforce at that school. And certainly, we are concerned that they don't lose out because of the CEP program 'cause, obviously, we need more than one facility to deal with our kids in trouble. And this was one of the sites that we suggested as maybe a place we can use for a truancy support center since you don't have a lot of students in their now and they are a discipline source. And we would certainly hope that the Board and the Administration would certainly realize that that's a good school there, we can do a good program and make sure that it stays. Okay, thank you. That's all. Thanks.
Kenney and then Ortiz. 237 3/6/01 - SCHOOL DISTRICT BUDGET (Councilman Ortiz responds inaudibly off-mic.)
Hold your horses. Thank you, Madam Chair. Last week, I think it was, there were two articles that appeared in the Philadelphia Inquirer. One was characterizing the Mayor's position on charter schools, according to the Mayor's comments, that he believed -- and it's a new position for him and I'm happy he has it -- that the charter schools are a major component, or should be a major component, in the retention of middle-class and working-class families in our city. Do you agree with that position? Anybody?
I'll take a first crack at it. We've been saying, I guess, since -- really since before charter schools really got started that we thought that one of the -- in addition to helping the School District learn from the innovation and experience of other schools that the potential was to build constituency for 238 3/6/01 - SCHOOL DISTRICT BUDGET public education. I think you would agree, Councilman, that one of the challenges we face as we try to secure greater funding for public schools is that -- that, you know, we sometimes hear this data and I'm not sure where it got started, that only percent of Philadelphians have kids in public 9 schools and that -- and the charter schools 10 present an opportunity to expand that 11 constituency. So we want to -- we want to do that 12 and we want to, you know, continue to develop it 13 as part of the public school experience in the 14 City of Philadelphia. 15 Along the way, we want to make sure that even though we're at the forefront nationally, that we do it in a way that's responsible academically so that we don't -- you know, we don't -- we avoid as much as we can the mistakes that we're making with School District schools.
But do you agree with the Mayor's position that charter schools, according to the article -- and maybe he was misquoted -- but according to the article, charter 239 3/6/01 - SCHOOL DISTRICT BUDGET schools in his opinion are a major component in retention and the halting of middle class migration to the suburbs.
As School Board President, I would say that I agree that charter schools certainly give us an opportunity and a potential to attract more middle-class parents and more parents generally into charter schools as well as the opportunity to provide the students who are not middle class with educational alternatives.
And I would suspect that you would at least understand some people's view that the irony of the story that appeared below it, wherein the District rejected out of 16 25 charter applications. Considering the fact 17 that this is the Mayor's board that's been 18 appointed in full by the Mayor and that the 19 Mayor's position is that charter schools are a 20 critical component to middle class retention, can 21 you explain to me the problem there? 22
Yeah. A couple of things. First of all, certainly I, you know, agree with what the Mayor had to say, but I also think that that was, you know, part of the answer, and he and 240 3/6/01 - SCHOOL DISTRICT BUDGET I have discussed this. I mean, it's my view, and I know he shares it, for any community, any community to be strong and have a healthy tax base requires a rich educational environment, and means a strong public school system, of which charters can certainly, you know, be an important component of that. It requires a strong, independent school system and it requires, in fact, even a strong parochial school system and whatever else. So, I mean, it's all of those, you know, sort of different strokes for different folks. And I think it's important to have all of those varieties of K to 12, and then certainly higher ed as well, offerings which help attract and build strong communities.
Without being specific to each of the that were rejected, how 19 bad were they? 20
And the second point is that 21 there was nothing in what the Mayor said that it 22 contradicts attention to quality and attention to fulfillment of the intent of the charter school law, which is expressly stated in the law what the legislature's intent was, which was to provide for 241 3/6/01 - SCHOOL DISTRICT BUDGET better public educational opportunities. And given that, as well as all of the regulations that are pursuant, which the Board President can explain, in the Board's application process, the Board has a responsibility to be consistent and committed to the requirements of that process.
Do you know what the overturn rate is from the Board to the State appeal process, what rate of charter applications there are rejected by the Board initially are, in fact, -- given approval at the appeal process level?
I don't know precisely the statistics. I heard it's about a third.
What do you attribute the difference in opinion with the State appeal process vis-a-vis the same criteria that -- or similar criteria that you're judging these applications on initially?
I mean, it's hard to tell at this stage how -- I mean, we're all still learning as we go. I know that -- you know, I don't want to get into specifics, but I -- but you have -- I 242 3/6/01 - SCHOOL DISTRICT BUDGET can say this anecdotally, that among those overturned on appeal, you do get -- you know, there's at least one of them that I'm getting a whole lot of complaints about from elected officials about -- there's a lot of complaints about the school itself, and there are probably complaints about ones that we've approved too. I think at this early stage, we don't have a good read on the appeal board. What we've done is every year try to improve our process. And now, you know, we're still -- and by the way, we're still kind of in our process. What we've done at this stage is, we've given -- we've voted on approvals and denials, but the next step is that charter schools have an application for a rehearing or to go straight to the appeal process. So that this is still, you know -- you know, the School Board part of the process isn't completely over.
Well, I just recently went on the board of a charter school that was initially denied. I don't think --
Independence, which 243 3/6/01 - SCHOOL DISTRICT BUDGET initially, we're --
Well, the reason I bring it up is to illustrate for you the concern that I think you share, but I just want to make sure it's on the record. The individuals that established the school are people who live in Old City, Society Hill, Queen Village. I would argue that none of them, absolutely none of them, need to live in the City, and that none of the people who are applying for their children to attend the school also need to live in the City. And the one thing -- while I recognize and understand your concern about the drain of resources from the District, I can assure you that the drain of resources from the City is what's put this city and the School District in the condition that it's in. The loss of 185,000, 170 or 185,000 people in 7 years, tax payers, real-estate tax payers, wage-tax payers, you know consumers. You know, so the choice, I guess, is to try to help this happen in a real way or to take the chance that these people are going to be waving good-bye 244 3/6/01 - SCHOOL DISTRICT BUDGET out 76 or over the Ben Franklin Bridge.
Yeah. I mean, a lot of good points there. One, you know, recognizing the loss of residents, the loss of the tax base at the same time that our population has gone up by -- the School District enrollment has gone up by around 22,000. And you pick a good example. I know that particular charter school. That case also points out another thing for the School District in terms of it -- you know, our capacity to improve. A lot of those people, 'cause I remember, you know, the application in some great detail. They submitted the addresses -- I looked at all of the addresses of people that had signed on there, and I was amazed by how many people were in the (indiscernible) for the Baich Martin School, which is a school that -- and some of those people are people that I know too on that list. And one of the things, you know, that surprised me, even from people that I knew on that list, was that they hadn't really even thought about the jewel that was kind of in their own backyards, and that's our fault because we need to 245 3/6/01 - SCHOOL DISTRICT BUDGET do -- you know, we need to do a better job of marketing -- part of retention issue is also a marketing issue, that there are schools that people need to know the good as well as the bad. The final point, Councilman, is that we're also -- as we wrap up this process, we start looking forward, again, towards next year and how we're going to do that, how we can do it better. We're also looking to whether we can work with the State on some other solutions. We've talk about the financial one. There's some policy direction we'd like to able to have. If there are parts of the City that are more overcrowded than others, we'd like the opportunity to have policy objectives, drives where charters are set up on the grade configuration.
Could I just add one thing, if I may, Councilman? I think just in perspective, a lot of issues that we're facing with charter schools here in Philadelphia and in Pennsylvania are national, are issues that are taking place elsewhere throughout the country. So we're not alone. I think we have a great opportunity to -- 246 3/6/01 - SCHOOL DISTRICT BUDGET
I'm sorry. We may be alone in the degree of our population loss, though. In that, we may be almost number one, and I think we are in major cities in the percentage loss of population in seven eight, years. We may be number one there.
Yeah, and that may be. I think the issue -- and like many things, the devil's in the details here. And I think the opportunity here that we have as a city is using charter schools as a strategic complement to what we're doing. And I think if we can resolve some of these issues around funding. But even more importantly, I think it's important to realize, you know, next year, we'll probably be close to 15,000 students. That makes the charter school enrollment the forth largest school district in this state. In many ways, as a practical matter, we're being asked to administer a system the size of Reading. You know, and I think we all know in this room, we're having enough problems getting our arms around our 264 schools. So I think if we can resolve with the 247 3/6/01 - SCHOOL DISTRICT BUDGET State some of these issues both financially and administratively, we can really use charter schools to do what you want to do, and that's to keep people in the City and really to be a strategic complement for -- (Unintelligible, parties talking over each other.)
I'd like to correct the record on my answer to you earlier, Councilman, when I referred to Baich Martin. The school I was thinking of particularly was Meredith, that a lot of those folks where in Meredith McCall's (indiscernible).
Okay. Based on Mr. Goldsmith's answer about relations with the State, and I know earlier in the testimony, there was some testimony that the District believed that there was a better relationship now with the legislature than there has been. Could you tell me kind of who you've met with and what leads you to believe that the relationship with the Senate and the House are better than they were? I understand the governor and the Mayor have, you know, a widely reported personal relationship and 248 3/6/01 - SCHOOL DISTRICT BUDGET seem to be getting along than maybe Dr. Hornbeck and the Governor did. But could you tell me who in the legislature has been cultivated and who you've met with or what staff you've met with? I mean, I'll through -- I'll give you a list of people who I think are important to have been met with by now, and maybe you can tell me whether you have. Matt Ryan or his staff? John Perzel or his staff?
John Bartley, who's the Appropriations Committee Chair?
And Senator Brightbill, who's now the Majority Leader of the Senate?
Yeah, we've been meeting with the Education Committee and Senate and Appropriations Committee staffs and members on -- in both houses, both parties, and in fact, doing this financial briefing, the House Education Committee, as we indicated, have been here a couple of times in the past six months. You know, the Mayor has his conversations certainly. In fact, he was slated to be in Harrisburg yesterday and today to meet with some of these leaders, and then because of 250 3/6/01 - SCHOOL DISTRICT BUDGET the weather, that has to be postponed and we're hoping to reschedule shortly. And, you know, it's members of the Board, it's myself, it's our representatives, the Mayor himself who are in contact.
I'd be interested in knowing when meetings took place over the last, say -- is this a period of four, five months that this has been going on?
I'd be interested in knowing who you met with and when it happened, 'cause, just from my information, some of these offices may be surprised that they've had a meeting already. So I'd be interested in knowing --
Thank you. 251 3/6/01 - SCHOOL DISTRICT BUDGET The Chair recognizes Councilman Ortiz.
Thank you, Madam Chair. How are you guys doing? (Laughter.)
Let me say that I have quite a different viewpoint as to charter schools, and I'd like to see each charter school come here and face the grit that you guys face, and do the stuff and rationalize each and every little bit of expenditure that they make. And I believe that since we do have two public school systems in the City of Philadelphia, I believe that we may have to have two hearings in order to have each and every charter school come before us. Because I don't think charter schools will keep the middle class in here. Public schools will keep the middle class in Philadelphia. And unless we create a public school system that functions -- and like I said, before it's first-class and major-league, we won't have a city to look at, because Puerto Ricans will start to leave, because they'd like to have good 252 3/6/01 - SCHOOL DISTRICT BUDGET public school systems, and they will not tolerate Shepherds and the Hunters and so on. And as we grow into affirmative and good-paying situations, you know, and I -- I don't believe that keeping on building is in order because you know, we should change the name from public schools to 264 charter schools, then maybe people will begin to believe that actual learning is taking place. And I'm -- I'm -- I'm impressed by the fact that your report that from K to 4 and 5, an upward curve is going on. Is that true?
And, you know, everybody kicks David Hornbeck around, but I think David Hornbeck really deserves some of the credit. And, you know, playing "nicey-nice" with Harrisburg, unless it translates to some real money, not the money that they added in this last budget, means crap. It means absolutely nothing. And I'm glad that Rhonda put it in terms -- if I may call you Rhonda. I don't know you that well. I know most of the other ones so can call them by their first name. 253 3/6/01 - SCHOOL DISTRICT BUDGET
But, you know, when you go down and you say that since '93, the (indiscernible) impact -- 'cause we've gone up, we have gone up in terms of students, we haven't gone down. People may have left the City but the school population has grown, people have come into the system. It's $655 million less, and for 2001, it's 71. million dollars (sic) less in basic education, and that is -- if the ESBE had grown at the rate of inflation, we would have received $351 million and then the School District would have received an additional $50.8 million for this current year. Unless Governor Ridge and Perzel and Ryan and all of these guys begin saying -- because good education is not really hard to do. Kids want to learn you. Just go to any neighborhood school in the most poverty-ridden area. And David Hornbeck received a lot of kicking around, but the fact of the matter is, some more money is coming through and to the City because of lot of the things that he gave and a lot of kicking and screaming. And he may not have been the most 254 3/6/01 - SCHOOL DISTRICT BUDGET political individual in the world, but somebody had to tell the truth about what goes on in the public school system in Philadelphia. And Baich Martin is a jewel and Kearsey is a jewel and I think Hunter is a jewel, okay? And so, you know, I would like us -- because Ben Franklin had an idea, and Ben Franklin believed that there had to be something that was public. That's why we have the public library because the rich have their own library, and that has to be sustained by government, not by private money. And, you know, I'm not going to go at you about certain things because I do know that the people that are on the board are really honorable individuals. I know most of them, and some of them are very close friends of mine. But to keep on saying that the charter schools are -- and then putting them up. I'd like to have every charter school here, Madam President. I think we've got to have two different educational hearings. I think we should scrutinize the 42 schools that are out there. I think we should ask them the same thing that we 255 3/6/01 - SCHOOL DISTRICT BUDGET ask these individuals and their board members. Because it is a drain on our system, no 4 matter what the Mayor says. I disagree with him on other things, I disagree with him vehemently on public schools. We need to be able to establish and build a system and -- and I'm glad that we're having an impact. And like I said before, David Hornbeck, thank you for your tenure. You put us on the right track, and I think we should give credit where credit is due. But right now, the State owes us. And every time we go away -- every time we go away from the word of the use public and privatizing, and it becomes very easy to begin saying that government should not be subsidizing public schools when the majority of the kids are becoming black and brown. And if the public school was good in the '30s and the '40s and the '50s and then we had no problem appropriating money for that, I don't think we should have any problem appropriating money. And like I said, we don't have problems finding money for rich developers. But until Harrisburg and all of the these other politicians and Ridge and so on -- I 256 3/6/01 - SCHOOL DISTRICT BUDGET agree with Vince Fumo when he said the other day after he announced his budget, Philadelphia got crap once again. And I know you can't say that because that would be too "Hornbeckish." (Laughter.) (Applause.)
Okay? We are now in the politics of being the "anti-Hornbeck," leaning over backwards to make "nicey" with the -- because the people in Harrisburg do not like us to be mean to them, but we don't get the money that our kids deserve, and we have to keep on saying it, and some of us have to keep on saying it. And Harrisburg giving us extra million dollar and 16 then with the threat of takeover if we don't improve, God darn it, you know. Give us money to build schools and to put kids per classroom, 19 and then we'll improve, then judge us, then judge 20 the public school system. Put the same level conditions on it. And, Madam Chair, I really do believe that we should bring each charter school here because I don't think -- and let me tell you something, all of the charter schools are going to 257 3/6/01 - SCHOOL DISTRICT BUDGET go through the process of unionizing and they're going to have a union and they're going to have a contract and they're going to have to go through collective bargaining because no worker in this society can work without a contract and at the whims of some local community board and politicians. And that's what we have. I mean it seems like (Councilman Ortiz speaks in Spanish here). You know, we want every one of us to have our own school. I get five people together, I'm dissatisfied with the public school system, I write a proposal. It's very easy to do that, by the way. I go before you, and then if you don't endorse it, if you don't fund it, I claim that you are driving me out of the City, you know? I'm glad you didn't fund it this time, I'm glad you put some requirements, I'm glad that you're putting some limits. And I think you should scrutinize, and you have to, because that is taxpayers' money that is going through there. And, you know, I would love to see you put a cap on it and tell the State, No more until you do certain things. 258 3/6/01 - SCHOOL DISTRICT BUDGET I have nothing else to say, ma'am, but like I said, I'm glad you're making improvements. If you were not making improvements, my kids would be in private school and they're not. And thank you to David Hornbeck once again.
Councilman, what is your purpose in wanting the charter schools here?
What is your purpose in wanting the charter schools here?
Because they get money from us, Madam Chair. They are public schools. The charter schools are not private schools, the charter schools are public schools. And some of the money that they get from property tax, the liquor tax, all of those taxes goes to fund those schools. So shouldn't we be having the same sort of relationship with them as we have with these individuals? They are -- let us get it in mind, charter schools are supposed to be public schools. They are publicly funded, they get tax 259 3/6/01 - SCHOOL DISTRICT BUDGET money. It is not David Rockefeller who's coming in and giving us so many millions of dollars to fund those charter schools. And I believe if we do this, we should have -- and not just let a public press release about charter schools guide us. But I think we should have the charter schools here, because they're saying that they're doing a better job than Potter Thomas. I'd like to see if they have kids in the charter schools that they hear songs in their head. I'd like to see teachers as committed as I see at Hunter. I'd like to see teachers as committed as I look at them in Greenfield and the other schools I go to. They get public money; we should hold them at the same accountability basis as we try to hold the School Board. And I think they're trying to do certain things, which I applaud them, and I think Hornbeck started on the right course, but unless they get the right amount of money and the funding, everything that's been accomplished in the last six, ten years will go back. But I would like to see. It is 42 260 3/6/01 - SCHOOL DISTRICT BUDGET charter schools, right?
Well, there are 34 in Philadelphia, one that Philadelphia students attend at Bensalem, two or three that were approved but on hold either by us or the --
There are 34 with 34 different boards. That's 34 different standards of teaching, 34 different standards of measuring accomplishment, 34 different standards of hiring teachers, okay? And 34 different standards of who knows what. And like I said, listen, you're talking to someone whose wife is the chair of one of them. (Applause.)
Okay? I am not -- okay? I disagree with certain things that go 261 3/6/01 - SCHOOL DISTRICT BUDGET down, okay? My wife and I have a discourse about this at home.
I probably lose the argument, but it is a problem. And that, I think, is one of the best ones, okay?
Councilman, the only -- I mean, I'm not sure we -- I mean, I think there is a place for charter schools. And I would also just caution, and I mean I haven't -- you know, we haven't talked about this before so I haven't thought about this all the way through, but I would just caution, as we talk about charters, to think about -- you know, to be mindful of the better for worse, the Board's responsibility in the charter school process and the responsibility for the charter schools. And an exploration like that, I would hope, would be some kind of collaboration, because at least while the School Board has the responsibility for charters, I know that we -- you know, we would -- as long as we have the responsibility for them, we think that -- that the 262 3/6/01 - SCHOOL DISTRICT BUDGET -- you know, we'd like to -- you know, we don't want to throw -- you know, we don't want to treat charters unfairly. We wouldn't have our schools and the School District schools individually coming, subjecting them to questions of Council and boards, and charter schools are subject to their own boards. They're responsible to some extent, although it's not always clear, to the School Board. And I understand your concern about tax dollars but there is a body here --
Anything that, I mean, we would, I think we would like to do it collaboratively and as responsibly as possible. But I just -- it just --
And putting up certain things. And the reality of things never come through, and I think it's about time that we had reality checks.
I think one of the biggest issues, Councilman, is really something that's not the charter -- the making of charter school administrators or boards, and that's the flaw in the way that the law is set up to fund them that creates a tension. I mean, I don't know that there's anything inherently bad, and in fact, there's a lot of good being done out there by charter schools. I mean, I know that, you know, one charter school that you hear more about that frankly, from what I understand and just from anecdotes in the community, that board has been very on top of things. And there's -- you know, when they need to make changes, they make changes rather quickly. And that's an advantage that some of our schools sometimes don't have.
The Chair 264 3/6/01 - SCHOOL DISTRICT BUDGET recognizes Councilman Rizzo.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Mr. Goldsmith, earlier in our conversation, we had -- you offered some information that I would like to take you up on. I don't know if you're prepared to discuss it now, but maybe someone in your staff can. In reference to the additional 185 school police officers, I'd like to know when the decision was made to go -- and in this report, on , under "Safety and Security," it says -- and it must have just recently occurred -- that safety and security has increased due to an expansion in the number of school police officers from 342 to 527. I'd like to know also the process on how those officers were employed. Was this a competitive examination? Could you describe, please, the process on how this 185 school police officers were hired and the timetable associated with that?
Okay. Councilman, I'm not sure I can do that in detail and I'll see if 265 3/6/01 - SCHOOL DISTRICT BUDGET anyone from staff. . . Marge, can you talk about the -- I'm sorry? (Mr. Goldsmith and staff member confer off the record.)
December of '99? Why would it be -- are you talking about December of 2000? (School Board staff member addresses Council off-mic.)
I'm sorry, you're going to have to come to the table and identify yourself if you have information.
Councilman, I think one of the reasons it occurred then is because this was in conjunction with the implementation and the installation of metal detectors in the high schools.
And the personnel that staff those are all School District police? 266 3/6/01 - SCHOOL DISTRICT BUDGET
Yeah. And initially, they were School District police. We have a mix in the schools where we use School District police and we release them to go to other schools. And it's a mix of School District police as well as School District employees.
I hate to split hairs, but you presented us a document and it says that the expansion in the number of school police officers from 342 to 527. Are you correcting the record that this is not police --
Do they all make the same amount of money? Are they all paid the same pay scale or --
I don't know the answer 267 3/6/01 - SCHOOL DISTRICT BUDGET to that.
My point is, when was this decision, because it's one of the best secrets that I think ever -- not many people were aware of this expansion in the security of -- in our schools. So I'd like to know when the decision was made to increase this number of personnel.
I may be able to provide some extra history. The Board decided to increase -- to provide scan and walk-through metal detectors in all high schools, and that required a big and sudden increase in staffing to staff that machinery. So the big bubble here -- these are all school police, and most of it was driven by the new security measures in the high schools. Since then, my understanding is that we've mixed -- the people that we have at the machines has been mixed a little bit and freeing up school police away from the machines. So we don't have -- initially, I think it was almost all or all school police, and I think it was like seven per scanning station. 268 3/6/01 - SCHOOL DISTRICT BUDGET So that was a big that was a big jump when we went to the scanning stations in the high schools.
So at that point, you believe that a school police officer was required in to do that task?
I think at that initial time, it was like seven, if my memory serves me right. And we've since then have found other ways of managing those stations so that you can free up school police to do other things and perhaps use other staff for that purpose.
So are you telling me then that we have presently 527 police officers, and then we have another number of people that aren't in this number --
Then what are we doing with 527 police officers if in fact you've replaced them with lesser, I would assume, paid 269 3/6/01 - SCHOOL DISTRICT BUDGET personnel?
In some roles, some roles. I mean, you still have a big presence of school police at the machines. They are also deploying them. One of the things that the Board learned from the Harnett (ph.) report, which is the report that -- the consultants that have been hired to look at our school police. Some of those findings went to how the School District could better deploy the police that it has and manage and supervise. One of the things that didn't keep pace was also the supervision. The span of control for supervisors has really widened, and one of the criticisms of that report was that you didn't have enough supervisors.
Councilman, let me just say that, obviously, the utilization of the metal detectors takes place during the morning hours when students coming into schools. When that process is done, depending on the school, depending on what the situation is, we keep a certain complement of security officers, depending on what the need is. And what we have been doing 270 3/6/01 - SCHOOL DISTRICT BUDGET is releasing those that are not necessary, so we have them in every middle school and in every elementary school. So what we're doing is, they're there for there for a certain period of time when they're needed for the metal detector, so every school in the School District is now covered by a School District police officer.
Could you describe the process to get one of these 185 jobs?
Well, part of the process is driven by what the school principal believes they need. And in some cases, they make a request and they can actually, quote, purchase a School District police officer. And then that request goes to Human Resources, and there's a hiring process that's undertaken to hire this -- that officer. I'm not particularly comfortable with the process we have in place, and I'm frankly in the process of rethinking -- rethinking the process. And I think one of the problems is that, you know, the force has grown exponentially, and to make sure that there's proper management of the 271 3/6/01 - SCHOOL DISTRICT BUDGET force, I think there's got to be a little bit more control over deciding when, in fact, we have to hire, what the requirements are, and make sure we have the proper training and so forth. And right now, it's driven by the schools for the most part. And as I said, it's one of the things we're looking at as we go through the process.
I personally believe that we as a school district have the obligation to provide proper security, and we shouldn't have principals feeling that they've got to trade in, frankly, textbooks or counselors to buy a School District officer. So we're looking at that, and hopefully, that will be changed.
And also, I was reminded that we still have a deployment of Philadelphia police to patrol the perimeters of many schools. And prior to your administration, there was some hesitancy, and police officers in some cases were reprimanded for being inside the schools, here they are walking around outside the schools, and if they're caught inside, that could 272 3/6/01 - SCHOOL DISTRICT BUDGET be a big problem. One particular district commander pulled those police officers from the school and was ordered to put them back because he didn't think they were being best utilized because he couldn't staff the cars in this particular district because he had police officers assigned to the school. This is a perfect example of coordination. And then I'd like to turn -- and I'll come back to you -- to Debra Kahn, the Secretary of Education. How come we don't better coordinate the school, the security, and police activities? And I asked the question a few minutes ago about Commissioner Timoney becoming the Secretary of Public Safety. And did Commissioner Timoney get a raise when he got that title?
Could you, please. Because Councilman Ortiz said that Commissioner 273 3/6/01 - SCHOOL DISTRICT BUDGET Timoney has no authority. It's an informal basically relationship he has with giving you direction on certain aspects of security. So I'm a little confused on really what Commissioner Timoney's title means to the Board of Education as Secretary of Public Safety.
Well, I can't right now speak to all of the legalities of that, but I would say rather than maybe having it be informal, I mean, I'd say it's evolving. I think it's been very helpful to us both under the previous Superintendent and now with Mr. Goldsmith, I mean, to have the Secretary available, to have him have assigned the officers that he has assigned and to have participating in his COMPSTAT meetings, to have evaluated this Harnett report for us, and in fact, to have helped facilitate getting that done by recommending the consultant himself. And we may, in fact, be exploring and will be, you know, other closer collaboration, everything on up to including that New York arrangement, which, of course, he is well aware of, because, I mean, that consolidation happened -- I believe it actually came into effect even 274 3/6/01 - SCHOOL DISTRICT BUDGET when Secretary Timoney was still in New York. So, you know, it is evolving. I think that he has become, I think it's fair to say, you know, much more involved than he was, you know, prior to that change and probably prior than other police commissioners had been. And we just need to figure out, you know, what the right balance is.
-- how to deal with the $192 million shortfall, so I think we really got to get ourselves in gear here.
And that's why I'm interested in also talking about some of this consolidation of services. We talked about for two years now, two years, and I hate to -- it bothers me when people point toward stadiums and point towards all of these other projects that we've been able to pull off in the click of a finger. We've been talking about the fleet that you have at the School District. 275 3/6/01 - SCHOOL DISTRICT BUDGET I remember, when I first came to Council in 1995, we were talking about consolidation. Personally, I have asked about -- and, again, I'm not speaking out of turn here. The City's about to spend $75 million on a communications system. For three years, I've been asking Mr. -- do you know how much the School District spends on their communications requirement, two-way radios, walkie-talkies, all of that?
Okay. I'll bet you it's a lot of money, and I understand we rent a system for the two-way communications at the School District. I have asked many times about the School District becoming a partner in this communications network that we're about to roll out here in the next -- it's going to be operational in the next few months. Are we anywhere with that? And where are we with some of the other consolidation of services like the Procurement 276 3/6/01 - SCHOOL DISTRICT BUDGET Department that we have. Lou Applebaum told me here, the Commissioner of Procurement, that he'd be willing to take over your purchasing at the District. And, again, from what I understand, there's been no serious attempt to do that. I'd like to hear it. Tell me about the communication, and if you need to bring one of the staff that knows up, I have no problem with that. Where are we with putting the School District -- and I'd like to get a figure, a number. How much do we spend, whether we own, maintenance contracts, whether we rent, radio, cell telephones, all of the gadgetry to communicate in the School District? And where are we today with joint -- he can come up, you know, if he has the answer. I'd like to know how much we spend and where are we today at seriously trying to consolidate services in the City government and in this School District?
Councilman, let me just say before we get into the detail on that, you know, I'm not sure I can take this back to 1995 as you can. 277 3/6/01 - SCHOOL DISTRICT BUDGET But the most honest answer is that this has been one of those capacity problems. At the same time there is an absolute urgency to do it, there has been great difficulty getting the attention, the talent, I would say, you know, focused on it to be able to make it happen. And I think that sometimes having this kind of very, very serious situation is what's going to propel us to do that. It's very difficult.
Well, let me see if this will get your attention. How much money do we spend on communications needs in the School District of the City of Philadelphia from cell telephones to pagers to two-way radios?
I'm sorry, you're going to have to identify yourself for the record, please.
John Lombardi, Administrator of Transportation. I can speak on the two-way radio system, Councilman.
Okay. About one and a half years ago, a representative from the City approached us regarding consolidating our resources. We have ten frequencies that were given to us by the Federal Communications Commission, and they talked about doing a new system for the police and firemen, and they asked if we would be willing to share our frequencies with them. We told them that we would. The system that we had in place is an analog. The system they were looking to put in is a digital system. And they priced it out and they came back to us and told us that they were going in a different direction and they didn't want to use our system.
So what you're telling me is we don't have a deal here, and I'm being told something just the opposite, and I'm not going to name names. I cannot imagine that this city is about to spend close to $100 million for a new communications system, state-of-the-art digital, and the School District is willing -- do you rent that system or do you own it?
No, we were given that 279 3/6/01 - SCHOOL DISTRICT BUDGET system by the Federal Communications Commission. They needed -- we were told that they needed our frequencies to do what wanted to do. We agreed. They said that they wanted to use our frequencies, they would share our towers with them, it would make our system better, it would be better for our school security, who could communicate within. So we were all for the system.
So you're telling me that the Department of Public Property lost interest in joining the School District with the City of Philadelphia.
How much do you spend at the School District for your communication requirements?
The two-way radio system, there's no cost for the system for making --
Excuse me, there's no cost for the system, you don't maintain the system?
We bought the system in 280 3/6/01 - SCHOOL DISTRICT BUDGET 1987. The towers we put up, the antennas we bought in 1987. We have not replaced it since. There is some maintenance that occurs each year, probably to $30,000 for removing equipment and 6 to replacing and other vehicles, but the system 7 has no recurrent costs because -- 8
All right. You 9 bought the system, or the system is how old? 10