I don't understand what you mean. 281 Whole - Bills 040255, et al - 5/18/04
Our recommendation is if the budget allows, yeah. Some of them we discussed; some of them we strongly recommended.
McIlvain is a Class C. No after school. Average camp participants 30. The recommendation is to keep the property intact, take out the building. Simpson is 10 blocks away. It's a Class A facility, with a gymnasium and a pool as well. Approximate savings of taking McIlvain out is $215,000. Dorsey in District 6 is a Class C, built in 1957. It's in fair condition. No 23 after school. Summer camp participants, approximately 25. Dorsey is approximately three blocks 282 Whole - Bills 040255, et al - 5/18/04 away from a Class B facility with a pool, American Legion. Investments, $60,000 in the last four years, with $160,000 appropriated now. $228,000 approximate savings over five years. Mayfair is a Class C. Our recommendation is -- We're working very diligently to lease this to the community. You can keep going, Carlton. Keep going. Moss, same way as Mayfair. Our strong recommendation, if possible, is to lease it to the community. Wissinoming. Our goal is to take out the building; and if not, move some of our maintenance people in there so we can at least continue to maintain it. Our maintenance facility for Northern Grounds is right adjacent to it on the same property. You can probably threw a baseball from one building to the other. The park is similar to a regional 283 Whole - Bills 040255, et al - 5/18/04 park. And quite naturally, we want to keep the park in place. It's the building that we had concern over. And once again, too, at Wissinoming if there is an interested party, we would like to turn that building over. Waterloo. This was a discussion point. You can keep going, Carlton. Schmidt, as well, is a discussion point, is a facility that we would like to maintain. But we're also in strong conversations and almost in negotiations with two parties that have joined together to try and take the entire facility. Nelson is in District 7. It's a Class C facility built in 1950. It's in average -- fair condition. After school attendance is approximately and summer camp 70. 22 Its proximity to Cruz, a Class A 23 facility with a pool, is approximately 11 24 blocks away. Can you back up, Carlton? Also in 284 Whole - Bills 040255, et al - 5/18/04 that proximity as well is Veterans Playground. You can keep going. Approximate savings -- No. Go back. I'm sorry. Approximate savings is $215,000 in over five years. Scanlon, once again, another ice rink. All ice rinks, our proposal is if the fiscal stability does not allow to us operate them, we still have the ability to maintain and run them without creating the ice and hiring additional staff. Present: Our recommendation is not to operate the facility year around, to operate the building and the pool for the pool use in the summer only. That's our recommendation for Pleasant. Wister, Class C. Poor condition. Average camp, 24. 20 after school. Recommendation, keep it outside, an outdoor facility. Stenton Park, Class A, with a gymnasium. Approximate savings. 285 Whole - Bills 040255, et al - 5/18/04 Waterview. Our recommendation is to maintain the building and the facility. We would like to take the pool out and create a spray ground there. Back up, Carlton, please. At Awbury, there's another pool eight blocks away, and ten blocks on the other side you have another pool as well. Simons. You can keep going. Barrett. District 9. It's a Class C facility in fair condition. Our recommendation is to lease it to the community. Fisher Park. Our recommendation is to lease it to the community. (Councilwoman Tasco said something, away from the microphone, not reportable.)
You can transfer back to Fairmount Park, yes, ma'am. You can keep going. Those are some shots of the spray grounds that have been recommended.
The spray 286 Whole - Bills 040255, et al - 5/18/04 grounds cost anywhere between $50,000 to $200,000?
Yes, ma'am. Thank you very much for bringing us back and for affording us the opportunity.
Thank you, Commissioner. I want to ask you a question before I recognize anyone. Have you been spending any capital monies that were appropriated in '04?
All of the capital money right now, relative to any of the facilities in discussion, should not be being spent at the moment.
So, how much do we have that has not been spent but we appropriated? Because I noticed in Councilwoman Tasco's District -- I don't know whether it was the pool. Tarken. Was 287 Whole - Bills 040255, et al - 5/18/04 $500,000. Are you proposing closing that? And how much of that $500,000 have you spent?
Not a pool. Maybe it was the skating rink. It was the skating rink.
No. At Tarken. Right now all of the stuff that is being considered should be on hold. Someone from Capital should be here to talk about it in detail, but I don't know if they're here.
So, any monies that were appropriated in '04 have not been spent for many of the facilities that you're showing us this evening; is that correct?
And what happened to the money? And how much is it?
My name is Eric Ivrig. I'm with the Capital Program Office. Are you asking just about the sites that are listed and shown here today?
Not just that one. I'm talking about all of them that we've seen. Have we been spending any of the Capital monies that were appropriated for any one of those facilities? If we have not, what does that amount to, and what have we done with it?
The available funding, I think, was shown on the sheets here, on these screens. The funds are available to this point. The only jobs going forward, as the Commissioner said, are for portions of it that wouldn't be closed, and that would be outdoor facilities. Again, to be specific about the ice 289 Whole - Bills 040255, et al - 5/18/04 rink, that's a long-range plan for replacing some of the refrigerant systems on the ice rinks, and that was separately funded by the Administration. That's why that's a significant amount. It's a program several years in the development.
So, monies that were appropriated in the Capital Budget for '04 have not been spent to date. Have the District Council people been told that? And if so, do they now have the option of putting that money into other facilities in their Districts?
That's a question for the Administration to answer, not myself. But I would say that --
And I'd like to know how much there is. How much money is there that has been appropriated and has not been spent?
I know, 290 Whole - Bills 040255, et al - 5/18/04 but I didn't calculate them as we were showing the screens. Commissioner, can you answer that question, please?
Not off the top of my head. I'd have to sit down and figure it out. You asked how much money --
No. I am asking in every Councilmanic District from the screen there are monies that were appropriated for FY '04 apparently have not been spent. My question to you is: Are the District Council people going to be afforded the opportunity now to say, well, since they're not spending it in Recreation A, I'm going to put that money into Recreation B?
Yeah. My recommendation is yes, yeah, that you all are afforded the opportunity to redirect the funds, yes, ma'am.
You all heard that, huh? 291 Whole - Bills 040255, et al - 5/18/04 I know that Councilman Kenny's button's been on for quite some time, so I'll let him go first.
Thank you, Madam President. I know that there's a large number of facilities on this list, and primarily these are District Council issues, with District Council people having concerns about centers in their own Districts that are being either downsized or closed. I want to -- And even though the facilities I want to talk about now are in specific Council Districts, and does, from my perspective, because of my experience with them, kind of a whole City-wide issue. And that's the ice rinks. And as you know, I've been intimately involved in not only Rizzo, but at Cobbs Creek and Tarken and some other rinks. And due to the fact that the ice programs are run normally from just after Thanksgiving until, I guess, the end of 292 Whole - Bills 040255, et al - 5/18/04 February, which is when we finish up our championships, I really think you're losing the opportunity to continue a process and progress that is far beyond simply the operation of a facility and the running of a league. And that is is that ice hockey, which I have played and have followed since the late '60s and early '70s, has traditionally not included many segments of our community. And through the establishment of these facilities, in various sectors and segments of the City or parts of the City, we've actually been able to get more and more kids, young people of color and people who have been under served by this sport involved in the sport. And that in itself is important because people should play and have an opportunity to play all sports. Hockey, you know, is not a white person's sport. It's a great sport that everyone should have a chance to 293 Whole - Bills 040255, et al - 5/18/04 participate in. And we see today in the pros even in Philadelphia, we see Donald Brashear and some other players in the league that have really come into prominence. And the opportunity that we lose by closing the ice portion of the program is that we don't have an opportunity, number one, to get kids more involved that are under served by the sport; and number two, we don't have the opportunity any longer to do the kind of exchanges we've been doing over the course of the last number of years, which really open up young people to different neighborhoods, to different cultures, to different people of different backgrounds, and to share a common sport, as we do with basketball or baseball or football or whatever else we do, to give them just another opportunity to interface and cooperate and perhaps develop a friendship which I think strengthens our neighborhoods. Many of these rinks provide an awful 294 Whole - Bills 040255, et al - 5/18/04 lot of money through self help in advertising sales, in the sale of concessions, in providing equipment for free for young people who can't afford it. And if we lose the ice facilities -- And I understand the roller rinks -- And a lot of the roller links exist because, again, the advisory council's raised the money to put the sport courts in, and to keep the programs going through the warmer months. If we lose the cold months and the programs run in the winter, what we're going to lose is the opportunity to recreate kids at a time of the year where there's not a lot of things for them to do. We don't have the baseball and soccer, and other things going. We do have basketball going. But we don't have a lot of outdoor sports that are available to kids in the colder months. We lose that opportunity. We lose the opportunity to expose kids who have not been exposed to this 295 Whole - Bills 040255, et al - 5/18/04 sport probably forever because they can't afford it. And many -- Regardless of the background or ethnicity of the child, many families in the City cannot afford the equipment, which has really been the biggest obstacle to people participating in ice hockey is that a set of -- you know, a full set of goaltender equipment could cost a thousand dollars.
These programs, through their own equity and through their own raising of money, they provide those kids with the opportunity to have that equipment at no 16 cost most of the time. And I think in many ways we shortchange the hard work of the people involved in these rinks. And I know I've been at fund raisers in just about every one of the rinks in the City, and I know how hard these people work to put the money back into their own programs, to extend the ice season for another week or two for, you know, a number 296 Whole - Bills 040255, et al - 5/18/04 of thousands of dollars. And while I appreciate you're not closing the facilities, while I appreciate you want to keep the day camps going, which are important in the summer, and the roller programs, which are fine, the closure of the winter season really is a bad thing to do to these kids. And I don't know how much... I can't imagine that you're saving that much money. I understand that there's issues relative to maintenance of the Zamboni equipment. Sometimes they break down. We have to borrow. We do whatever we have to do to get the ice surface done. But I really want you to reconsider the closure. You can't imagine the number of -- I think you can because you've been Commissioner long enough to see what these programs do, what these programs have done and the number of kids that have been involved. And again, I will not downplay the opportunity for South Philadelphia kids 297 Whole - Bills 040255, et al - 5/18/04 from Rizzo playing in an inter squad scrimmage or in a league with African American kids from West Philadelphia at Cobbs, and Simons and other places. It's been a great cultural exchange opportunity for all of us. And to end it, just to end the ice program in the winter, I think is terribly shortsighted. I know you're under constraints, but I really wish you would reconsider it, from a City-wide perspective. I think it's very important.
I'd like to echo and tell you that I agree with everything except one. I'm not shortsighted. But I --
I'm not accusing you of being shortsighted. I understand.
I've been to Tarken, to the Ice Capades, to Cobbs Creek, eating 298 Whole - Bills 040255, et al - 5/18/04 hot dogs, giving out the trophies to all the little hockey player teams at Rizzo. I'd like to see all five rinks stay open. I would not be doing my job as the Commissioner if I did not bring it to this governing body as a discussion point to say, these are things that are being discussed.
Well, what's the total amount of all the cuts, not just the rinks. Not just the rinks.
Everything. Everything on that list, I guess with the exception of some of them that really are so dilapidated that --
Total -- Total, everything up there -- I believe I may be off a little. It's about 4 to $4.2 million, in that range. 299 Whole - Bills 040255, et al - 5/18/04
And I know you have no control over this. And I know this is not your responsibility, but that four -- that $4.2 million is in this government, and it's times many times in this government.
And the shortsighted -- This is not yours, but the shortsightedness is what the restriction, closure of, and downsizing these programs are going to do when the money is there. I mean, I think what's been very clear throughout the course of all this testimony that the money for the cultural initiatives and the money for the recreation stuff is in there. It's in the budget somewhere. And I could point to a couple places where it is, and we have in the course of this testimony. So... And I know you can't direct or control that policy decision. But I would urge you to really attempt to try to keep the wintertime ice programs, not only 300 Whole - Bills 040255, et al - 5/18/04 the hockey but the figure skating and the Ice Capades and all the other stuff available. It is... They are active, vibrant places. And some of the places you put up there, obviously, you know, with, you know, a handful of people participating in a program in the summer, I understand that they have probably -- you know, a lot of disuse -- or a lack of use. These places are not so -- not badly used. There are a lot of people using these places. And I still think, from a cultural, social, neighborhood interaction perspective, we are losing a lot by shutting down the winter program.
I agree with you. You used the term earlier that hockey before used to be a myth that it was just for whites which is untrue. I called it a non-traditional sport.
And I agree with everything you said, the multi-cultural... 301 Whole - Bills 040255, et al - 5/18/04 I'm very familiar. I participated in the Harmony for Hockey, and using this sport in that aspect of diversity and sensitivity to other ethnics.
I'd like to see all five of them stay open and operate, but I have to discuss them publicly.
But I want you also to -- I think you do know -- I want to state for the record that the closure of the five -- I'm sorry. It's five? Five.
Closure of the five requires anyone who wants to participate in the future to go into New Jersey or go into the counties.
Where the cost of participating in that program -- I just wrote a check for my son's high school hockey program today. I won't tell you how much it is, but it's a lot more than is charged at these 302 Whole - Bills 040255, et al - 5/18/04 rinks, which do serve -- And the reason that they're able to keep those prices low and keep the equipment free is because the people who volunteer there are the ones raising a ton of money through their efforts. And all of that's lost. Thank you, Madam President.
You're welcome. The Chair recognizes Councilwoman Tasco.
Thank you very much. Have you done a cost analysis of how much it would cost to demolish all the buildings that you cited in your presentation?
No, we haven't done a cost analysis for the demolition of all of them, no, ma'am.
If you had to demolish them, what would be the cost to demolish?
We did have a rough cost 303 Whole - Bills 040255, et al - 5/18/04 but it's a very gross estimate, based on a cubic foot price. One of the smaller buildings would probably be... approximately, I think we figured, about 35, 40, at least because most of them would require relocation of the utilities that are in the building, particularly the electrical services, and a water service for the -- for drinking fountain on the site. So even a small place, with a small building, would not just have the expense of knocking the building down, but also replacing the utilities. I don't have that number right in front of me, but like I said, we had a rough estimate on it.
Individually -- They're all different sizes. Like I said, it would go by a cubic foot is the way you usually estimate is. But some basic costs.
So, where does 304 Whole - Bills 040255, et al - 5/18/04 the money come from to demolish the buildings?
Those are things that are still being discussed. And in my earlier testimony when I first came, I stated that this would be at least a two-year process, if we had got to this part. So that has yet to be determined as well. Thank you.
Okay. Now, if you propose to demolish rec centers, these centers that you've cited, and you leave the playground open, where do the kids go to the bathroom? Do you have to provide porto toilets? And if you do, how much will that cost?
We don't recommend providing port-a-johns. Some of the facilities are closed right now that don't have working bathrooms or there's no staff at some of them. The majority time of the year when children come or parents bring them. And then we 305 Whole - Bills 040255, et al - 5/18/04 also have other facilities that are erected, passive parts, that don't have restroom facilities. So, you know, they would use the restroom at their home, like they do now. And if they're at a structured rec center at a structured activity, quite naturally, at the big A or B facilities, they would use the restrooms there.
So, I'm eight blocks away from home, and I have to go to the bathroom. I have to run eight blocks home to go to the bathroom?
These spray pools, thinking about the sanitation of them, and how do you maintain them, and who watches the children. Certainly there has to be a staff person there to watch the children at the 306 Whole - Bills 040255, et al - 5/18/04 spray pool.
There's no standing water. Let me answer the first part. Your first question, I believe, was relative to sanitation. There's two aspects. You can't build it with a self-contained system that will recirculate the water and chlorinate it, which you would have to use a staff person. And from what we've evaluated, they would have to do it at least once but preferably twice a week, where they would go test the water and just refill the chlorination tank. And then the other way you could build it where you just use the free water as it comes out of the City's line, and then it's, you know, used and disposed of.
Who pays for the cost of the water? Have you calculated the cost of the water?
No, we haven't done that either. 307 Whole - Bills 040255, et al - 5/18/04
Okay. Now, if you're going to close the ice rinks and make them roller rinks, who staffs the roller rinks?
The ice rink is staffed by seasonal employees. That's where the majority of the savings are. What is it? 45 employees?
There's 45 seasonal employees that we hire to staff, from equipment operators that run the five Zamboni machines, to the people that actually rent out the skates and do the program and watch the children. So that's where the majority -- That's where the savings are, by not hiring 308 Whole - Bills 040255, et al - 5/18/04 the seasonal staff during the 14-week season. But the regular roller rink or like bringing a portable basketball court in or playing roller hockey or soccer on the rink, that's done with the year-round staff already.
When you look at Tarken -- And I can only speak for my District; I don't know the other Districts -- and you look at Simons, you look at two facilities that are not close to anything. Simons is the only ice rink in the northwest.
So the comments that Councilman Kenny made, in terms of the program and the ability to work with other children and all of that comes into play. And I just think it's a very poor decision to even think about closing it. So, you know, I'm not... And Barrett. Barrett is the... When you look -- It's like closing a bank. When we 309 Whole - Bills 040255, et al - 5/18/04 fought the bank, Core States at the time, from closing the bank at Allens Lane and Stenton, and then the people were told to go about four blocks up to Chestnut Hill, it's just -- you would -- just can't sit and do this stuff on a paper. You have to understand -- and I think you do -- neighborhoods, you know, proximity. People walk to the park to take their children. They don't get in the car to go eight blocks to a rec center. And that's how it operates. Barrett is in an area that for the last to years has suffered because of 16 the Logan sinking homes. And the schools 17 are not necessarily open for recreation 18 activities after school. 19 This is the only center in that 20 community, and Cherashore may be up the street, but it's a long way. Okay. You know, to think about closing that is a disservice to those people in that community. And I'm not sure that there's the wherewithal to lease that 310 Whole - Bills 040255, et al - 5/18/04 property by the community. That's more of a pipe dream. That's not going to happen there. And so, I just think that... You know, I have a concern about the whole thought process around these closings. I don't think there's enough information. And I don't see any money in the Capital Program for the spray pools, you know. I mean, where is this money coming from? And how much the demolition would cost? And... You know, we may have enough money through all of that to keep the pools open for four or five years, when you look at the total cost of demolition, and look at the cost of removing the utilities, and the building of these spray pools. I think there has to be some cost analysis done to see if you're really saving any money. I think that's all, Madam President, that I have to say.
Thank you. 311 Whole - Bills 040255, et al - 5/18/04
And I would echo Councilman Nutter's comments. We spent over $750,000, maybe close to a million dollars in Simons prior to 2000 restructuring that ice rink. And so, for me that would be a waste of money, just throwing money out the door that probably could have gone for something else. But it was a most worthwhile project, so... Ya'll got a tough way to go here.
I would like to say that I agree with everything that you presented on the ice rinks. I feel very strongly. I'm very familiar with Barrett, and we'd like to keep Barrett open. But it's a discussion point that came up. I thank you very much.
And I just want to say that, for the record, that I -- the initial discussion around the 9th District, during that period that was the reason I didn't meet with you and the Managing 312 Whole - Bills 040255, et al - 5/18/04 Director. None of my rec centers were on the list. So, I'm really puzzled and confused about why all of a sudden now they appear on the list. When we first had the budget discussion, there were none of my centers on the list. So, I... And as I've said to the Mayor, I question the whole process of how this was done, and that I don't think there was a real serious effort to doing analysis of these proposed closings. And I just believe that, you know, somebody screamed that 9th District doesn't have anything, and even the 10th District didn't have anything. And all of a sudden there appears to be some closures 9th District which I have a problem with, because I have a problem with the process.
You're welcome. 313 Whole - Bills 040255, et al - 5/18/04 Commissioner...
...did you do a utilization study? I don't know that you presented much about swimming pools. I am led to believe that at Smith Swimming Pool you have several hundred people using that on a daily basis.
Council President, on the utilization of the pools, I cannot accurately sit here and say that we have the best numbers on all our pools. All I can say is that I know the pools that are the least used and I know the pools that are the most used. For the most part, at the pool during the summertime we have a seasonal worker that does the best that he or she can to count the number in the pools. So I'm not going to say that they're great numbers. But at Smith's Pool, the number we gave that was reported to us might be a little low. I don't think it's that far 314 Whole - Bills 040255, et al - 5/18/04 off, but it is --
When you compare it to the 1 to 85 pool, it wouldn't be in the top 50 percent. It's definitely not in the bottom percent. 9
It is my 10 understanding that there are groups or, say, a day care that would like to send or take their children to Smith. They have to call the rec leader there, and he or she will tell him, you can come between 12:00 and 1:00 or 1:00 and 2:00. That's how overcrowded they are. Now, this is what I'm being told. I'm told also that the adults use that pool in the evening.
Well, we close at 7 o'clock. So if someone's after 7 o'clock, then that's on us to verify that.
Well, our pool 315 Whole - Bills 040255, et al - 5/18/04 operation throughout the City is 11:00 to 7:00 Monday to Friday, 1:00 to 6:00 Saturday and Sunday. One of the factors in Smith that's only being considered was that it's an eight-foot pool, and it's going to cost a sizable amount.
Please. We're talking about that being an eight-foot pool, and then we're talking about closing Chew because it's only a four-foot pool. So, what type of a pool does it take to be considered to stay open? This is ridiculous.
What age? What is the criteria? Spell it for me, because I don't quite understand this process.
On the criteria of all of the facilities, the criteria from the Planning Commission that we used, the age of the facility. We looked at facilities 316 Whole - Bills 040255, et al - 5/18/04 40 years, 30 years, years. We also looked at the type of material that the building or the pool was constructed with. We also considered whether it was maintenance friendly and practical. We looked at the design and layout of the facility, the pool, for practical or its intended use, looking at risk and safety. We also looked at the present structural condition. We looked at what you proposing to us right now, is the usage, the volume of the clients or the customer. We looked at the proximity or the location to another facility, and also we looked at some of the density of the population versus the location of the facility. That's the criteria that was looked at.
Again, I'm asking, what is the usage of that pool?
The usage that we reported, Council President, I think it's around 7,000 participants which would 317 Whole - Bills 040255, et al - 5/18/04 average out to about 150 or so per day. That might be reported -- That number might be off. But I know that pool is not one of those pools that's heavily used, as some others, say, for instance, as Vare, as --
So how many people a day would you say use Vare's pool?
I would say Vare in a season is -- I think the reported number on Vare was around 15,000.
So 300. And we can assume that the youngsters that are using Smith -- And I think you said it was 150 a day?
Vare is going to be able to accommodate all of these children?
And how many lifeguards would we have? How many lifeguards do they have at Vare and how many lifeguards will they need if, in fact, they're going to be sending all of these other children there?
Well, we have five lifeguards at all our pools. If the closings do come on some of these pools -- And let's say, for instance, the kids would be encouraged to go to Vare, obviously some of the savings would be curtailed because now Vare would have 25,000 kids in there in the summer, and we'd need more lifeguards. So it would not -- the savings, instead of being $50,000, maybe would be $40,000.
How many people does a pool accommodate at Vare?
Vare's pool could accommodate... Our ratio is per 30. For instance, we have three lifeguards on duty. That means 90 children would be in the pool that hour.
Let me 319 Whole - Bills 040255, et al - 5/18/04 just say this: I think -- Now, I don't want to take up everybody's time. I think this is ridiculous. You're talking about 150 more children from Smith going to Vare. We're talking about Tasker Homes being completed, and we don't know how many more children are going to be at that location going to Vare. So how many children are we going to be able to accommodate there? And if it's not there, then where? It's going to be the middle of the streets. Secondly -- And I'm not going to take everybody's time because I know how important this is to everybody else. Two, we're going to close Chew. You're recommending that the youngsters then go to Anderson which sounds like it's not that far. However, keep in mind that the children would then have to cross Washington Avenue. And they're going to have to walk through some areas, 320 Whole - Bills 040255, et al - 5/18/04 Commissioner, that you would be afraid to walk through. And I don't think that we want that to happen to some of our youngsters. So, I am asking you to get back to me to let me know how we're going to accommodate -- if, in fact, this proposal goes anywhere -- how, in fact, you're going to accommodate all of these youngsters at the Vare Pool because I don't see it happening.
I can just see it being trouble. And I don't think you need that either. Councilman Nutter. Councilman Nutter, would you yield to Commissioner Rizzo? I think he may be a bit more impatient here.
Secretary pays 321 Whole - Bills 040255, et al - 5/18/04 more.
Thank you, Councilman Nutter. Thank you, Madam Chair. Commissioner, when we had the discussions, the preliminary discussions, I said something -- And I'm not going to be hypocritical here -- that I would support you trying to do your job and doing it well. But I qualified that. And I said that, you know, I really needed you to show me. I needed you to come with good data that substantiates the decisions that you're making here. Now, I don't feel as though that has been done well, and I know that it's not because you don't want to. It's just because, you know, we didn't have the guy with the clicker at the door maybe counting heads. But I have a difficult time being supportive of what we think is the situation. And I'll be honest. I can't be supportive of closing anything unless I 322 Whole - Bills 040255, et al - 5/18/04 really know what the deal is, and what really exists out there. And that's pretty much all I wanted to say, just to let you know that I want you to do your job. I want you to do it well. I want you to save the taxpayers of the City money. But I want you to do it with some really good strong information. Like the skating programs, and the swimming pool closures. I mean, we're not talking -- What I'm asking you to do is to maybe slow down a little bit. Isn't there some obvious savings before you -- Before you launch the entire, you know, barrage of rockets, can't you kind of go year one, year two? Because we're talking about neighborhoods, Mayor's Transformation Initiative, people coming back to communities. I think that there's enough that we can agree on that can get you started to -- You know, I said to the young man that works with me, it sounds like some of these 323 Whole - Bills 040255, et al - 5/18/04 swimming pools are going to be like trying to put four people into a barrel. I mean, how do you have fun swimming when you have to stand there like this (Indicating)? You want to swim in a swimming pool. And the other thing that I think you have the responsibility to do, which I haven't seen it happen, is to recruit people to come to these facilities. Many parents are scared to death because of the problems that we had with lifeguards. And we all know the issues associated with that. But show me what you've done to try to get kids from the neighborhood to double the occupancy in those swimming pools. I haven't seen any of that. That's what I'd really like to see you do, as the Recreation Department. Let people know how much fun they can have coming to a public facility, to ice skate, to roller skate, to swim, to take part in other recreational activities. 324 Whole - Bills 040255, et al - 5/18/04 Every business, before they shut the door, at least tries to save it. And I don't see us really trying to save it. What have we done to recruit the community to come to these facilities?
Every year during the holiday season we send out letters to the clergy, starting to recruit lifeguards, letting community leaders, along with the School District well know that summer's approaching, camps will be opening, job opportunities. And that's really when we begin the recruitment for summer, especially lifeguards. Two years ago we were very fortunate, through some leadership through Temple University, to produce a television commercial in recruiting lifeguards. Two years ago we created a brand new summer brochure, that I want to say there's approximately... How many did we send out? 30,000 or 40,000 throughout the entire City and the School District. It's replicated again this year. 325 Whole - Bills 040255, et al - 5/18/04 The department just recently won a state award for the program directory that was printed that was 200,000 copies that was printed and distributed as well. Those are some of the initiatives that we've done. And I'm sure that we can continue. But I'd like you to know that we are making a concerted effort, and that we are aware of the need for public recreation, safe places and outlets for parents to have to bring their children, especially in the summer.
Commissioner, Commissioner, look: We have a Police Department. We have the Community Relations Police out there that should be advocates for public education. We have the -- You know, we want to put the johns on the City T.V. channel. That's okay. But I'd like to see the Recreation Commissioner to do a 15-minute video, and tell the citizens of Philadelphia all the good things that they can experience. 326 Whole - Bills 040255, et al - 5/18/04 I think honestly, a lot of people in our neighborhoods know those facilities there, are sometimes frightened to send their kids there. They really don't know what the kids can experience there. And I think if we do a little bit of work and make them realize that their kids aren't going to go there and drown, that they're not going to get beat up, that maybe they'll start going; and your numbers will go up, and you'll be coming back here asking for more money to run them, rather than shut them. So again, I want to be supportive of your mission. But again, I want to -- I'm the kind of guy that you got to show me the numbers, and you got to show me -- And not saying, I think, you know; and it's this, that. Well, these are big decisions. Could you slow the program down a bit and move ahead with a little bit more... Could I hear your response to that?
My response is that I 327 Whole - Bills 040255, et al - 5/18/04 don't believe I'm moving a mile a minute. I think it's going to take a couple of years to do this. I agree with what you're presenting. I believe it's a very, very difficult and sensitive issue, when you're talking about public recreation and facilities. I want to say that I'm a big advocate of what I do. I don't believe there's nobody, you know, in this room that cares more than me because of the commitment and the love that I have. And I know that everybody in this room cares about the Rec Department but the citizenship as a whole.
Commissioner, what I don't want to see happen -- What I don't want to see happen is that I walk out of this room at the end of this budget process, that everything in this book is on the chopping block.
What I want to hear is that everything is... 328 Whole - Bills 040255, et al - 5/18/04
...that not everything is going to be eliminated here, because you say it's a two-year project. And next year, as far as I'm concerned, everything in this book will be dead within four years. Is there a way we could move forward and not commit to doing everything that you are presenting to us today, especially if things change?
I'd like -- I'd like the majority of what we see in this presentation... And it could go either way, depending on the City's fiscal stability. A lot of it has to do with... Would I be -- It has to do with my responsibility and obligations to the entire City, and not just the department. And that's what I need to do, and that's what I have to do. That's why a lot of these things have to be presented. On the other hand, if you notice in 329 Whole - Bills 040255, et al - 5/18/04 the presentation, you saw MDO, you saw rec, but also you saw in big, was the Planning Commission. And in order for the City to accomplish this or to do any of this right and not just relative to the rec department, but for any municipal buildings, whether it's a firehouse, a police station, a Health Department building, a library, the Planning Commission is the integral part out front. A lot of the things that you all had been presenting and talking about are some of the things that I've been saying since I got here, and the first time I came in front of you all in the fall of 2000. The planning Commission, using the density, using the population, the type of material, the whole bit. So, I'm really excited about seeing the Planning Commission being put in the position to do what they have to do, what they need to do, in order for to us manage and run the City.
Commissioner, 330 Whole - Bills 040255, et al - 5/18/04 I'll buy into all that about the fiscal stability of the City. I'll buy into it when I see... And again, no disrespect to your team. When I see the lights out during the day at a dozen different recreation centers, I'll buy into when I see the government running as efficiently as it can. So, I appreciate --
-- the money, but I also want to see -- I want to see it running right.
And I'm not suggesting because the lights are on in the daytime in a couple of facilities is that it's not running right. But it's a very visible signal that it may not be ruining right.
That's it. I don't want to take any more time. Thank you, Madam President.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Commissioner, in the presentation I thought I remembered some comments by you about not only closing some facilities but also creating some new ones. Can you go back over that, please?
Yes. Yes. Some -- Some facilities in -- throughout the City we need to look closer at. One of them that we've identified possibly is Cecil B. 332 Whole - Bills 040255, et al - 5/18/04 Moore, that it should be torn down and reconstructed. That was the one facility that I had talked about.
Okay. Do you want to talk to anybody else at the table?
But using the Planning Commission, where, you know, what all of you all have been talking about is in the direction that we're going in, using all of the data to take a look at everything that needs to be assessed.
I understand. So the answer to the question is that... One or is there more than one to be rebuilt?
Right now I can say on record there's one. But I can also say on record that we're looking at the rest of the entire inventory as well.
Okay. So what 333 Whole - Bills 040255, et al - 5/18/04 other --
Five... I want to say it's five or five -- What is it, five and a half million?
And this is because the present facility is in such poor condition?
Yes, sir. The age, the date. The age... The age, the present condition, the layout, how it was designed. 334 Whole - Bills 040255, et al - 5/18/04 You flow, I want to say 1930, off the -- Am I right? UNIDENTIFIED VOICE: Yes.
1930. So to bring it up to today's standards and not put today's money in a building that would -- And those are some of the things that we're going to continue to work with the Planning Commission to do the entire department.
I guess throughout the -- throughout the years, use. Maybe at one time lack of capital funding, things of that nature. Probably we could have done better preventive maintenance throughout the course of the life of the building. There's different factors.
Now, at the start of this part of the hearings there was a discussion about the FY '04 Capital funding that was provided for a variety of facilities. 335 Whole - Bills 040255, et al - 5/18/04 Did I understand that a decision was made not to spend those dollars for facilities that are now a part of this discussion?
We're holding up the major projects. We are continuing with all of the site improvements at all of these facilities that are still to be kept open for use of outdoor --
Approximately when the -- I guess the development of this list was public. I'd say about --
Well, the FY '04 funding would have been made available last year.
Not only the appropriation that was new capital funding in FY '04. But again, the capital -- FY '04 budget includes carryover funds for prior years also.