COUNCIL OF THE CITY OF PHILADELPHIA PUBLIC HEARING BEFORE THE COUNCIL COMMITTEE ON LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - - - Room 400, City Hall Philadelphia, Pennsylvania Thursday, May 11, 2000 2:30 p.m. - - - BILL 000217 - An ordinance amending Section 9-402 of the Philadelphia Code, entitled "Animal Drawn Carriages," and Section 10-108, entitled "Rental Carriage Horses," by making various changes to the provisions governing the animal-drawn carriage business and the use of horses in such business, and amending the approved routes for animal-drawn carriages, all under certain terms and conditions PRESENT: COUNCILMAN RICHARD T. MARIANO, Chair COUNCILMAN DARRELL CLARKE, Vice Chair COUNCILMAN DAVID COHEN COUNCILMAN FRANK DICICCO COUNCILMAN MICHAEL A. NUTTER COUNCILMAN ANGEL L. ORTIZ COUNCILWOMAN BLONDELL REYNOLDS BROWN COUNCILMAN FRANK RIZZO - - - VINCENT VARALLO ASSOCIATES, INC. Registered Professional Reporters Eleven Penn Center, Suite 600 Philadelphia, PA 19103 (215) 561-2220 2 5/11/00 L&I COMMITTEE - BILL 000217 I N D E X *Barbara Riebman, Former Director . . . . . . Morris Animal Refuge 5 William Ferraro, Chief of Vector Control. . . 13 6 Services, Philadelphia Dept. of Public Health 7 Randall Hirschhorn, Director of Environmental 13 Health Services, Phila. Dept. of Public Health 8 Otis Haigler, Jr. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 25 Legislative Regulatory Affairs Manager, L&I Sgt. Ed Margerum, Center City District. . . . 31 *Erik Hendricks, Pennsylvania SPCA. . . . . . 31 *Valerie Phillips, Animal Advisory Committee 46 *William Hawkins, Consultant, Mayor's Animal 49 Advisory Committee on Carriage Horses *Bush Bell, General Manager . . . . . . . . . 79 Sheraton Society Hill, Second and Dock Streets Patricia Washington, Vice President . . . . . 89 Grants and Partnerships, Greater Philadelphia Tourism Marketing Corporation *J. Grimes, Esq., Counsel to 76 Carriage Co. 100 *Dr. Ellen Buck, Director, Equine Protection 104 Humane Society of the United States Tina Nelson, Executive Director . . . . . . . 117 American Anti-Vivisection Society *Roberta Spivek, Chair. . . . . . . . . . . . 120 Carriage Horse Action Alliance *David Cantor, East Coast Field . . . . . . . 123 Representative, Animal Protection Institute 3 5/11/00 L&I COMMITTEE - BILL 000217 (Index, cont'd.) Leslie Fleisher. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 129 Mayor's Animal Advisory Committee Laura Homer, Carriage Driver Tester . . . . . 131 Michael Slocum, President, 76 Carriage Co. 142 Edwin Goldsmith, Esq., Council. . . . . . . . 179 Philadelphia Carriage Company Dr. Samuel Geller, Veterinarian . . . . . . . 180 An owner, Quakertown Veterinarian Clinic Bashier Ahmed, Owner. . . . . . . . . . . . . 202 Philadelphia Carriage Co. Former Councilman James Tayoun. . . . . . . . 207 Violet Aharonian, Private Citizen . . . . . . 217 (Not a Philadelphian) Jason Metivier, Carriage Driver Trainee . . . 223 Jennifer Taylor, Carriage Driver. . . . . . . 225 Philadelphia Carriage Company (* - Also provided written testimony, attached.) Written Testimony Only (Attached) Provided By: - Charlie Pizzi, Chairman, Philadelphia Chamber of Commerce - Charlie Heinz, General Manager, Marriott Hotel and Chair, Convention Visitors Bureau's Government Affairs Committee - Dr. Dale Schilling, Veterinarian 4 /00 L&I - BILL 2 P R O C E E D I N G S
The public hearing for the Committee on Licenses and Inspections will come to order. Councilman DiCicco, to my left, would like to make a statement.
Thank you, Councilman Mariano. And I thank everyone for coming today and I apologize for my delay in coming up here -- I was having a briefing with the Mayor concerning some TIF legislation. As you know, I drafted a bill, I guess almost two years ago, to try to deal with the issue of the horse carriage industry as it relates to the City of Philadelphia. I have received an enormous amount of correspondence from people on both sides of the issue -- if I can refer to it as "both sides of the issue." I've received a number of correspondence from the hotel industry, the tourism industry, letters from animal activists, letters from residents in and around the Society Hill community, all of which I thank you for your participation and your input. I will be making some recommendations to this committee at the end of the testimony that 5 /00 L&I - BILL 2 will be coming forth from people in the chambers today. I am certain at this point in the proceedings that in the end, when I finally make my recommendations, that no one in this room will be happy, or at least entirely happy, but some decisions have to be made, and I think that the recommendations that I will be making are in the best of interests of all parties. Again, I don't expect everyone to agree with me on that, but I'm going to attempt to do something with this legislation that will make for better conditions for everyone who has to live and work in the carriage industry business. The other thing I was going to let you know is that I have not just paid attention to correspondence or just meeting people on the streets. As recently as this past week, I took a ride out to Bucks County and went to Valerie Phillips' place to see her beautiful farm and bed and breakfast. I didn't stay overnight but stayed for the day. As many of you know in this audience, Valerie was a part of original horse legislation and was referred to me by then-Mayor Rendell as someone who could enlighten me on the 6 /00 L&I - BILL 2 issue of the horse carriages in the City of Philadelphia. By chance when I was there this past Sunday, I met a neighbor of hers, a veterinarian, and had about a half hour discussion on this very issue, and that veterinarian gave me some insight, which I believe has made me make my final decisions as to amendments or recommendations that I will make to the bill 10 today. Valerie, I want to thank you, and I thank the Chair for allowing me a few minutes just to discuss my feelings with all of you.
Thank you, Councilman. I would like to introduce the rest of the committee now. There's Councilman Rizzo to the left and the lovely Councilwoman Blondell Reynolds Brown -- we say that every time. Of course, we know Councilman DiCicco's here, that's the reason we're here today. And we have Councilman Clarke and Michael Nutter, who's on the phone, and Councilman Cohen just entered the room. The rest of the people here are just aides and lawyers and don't need to be introduced. 7 /00 L&I - BILL 2 Let's see, Barbara? Barbara Riebman asked to go first. (Witness comes forward.)
Bill No. 000217, an ordinance amending Section 9-402 of the Philadelphia Code, entitled "Animal Drawn Carriages," and Section 10-108, entitled "Rental Carriage Horses," by making various changes to the provisions governing the animal-drawn carriage business and the use of horses in such business, and amending the approved routes for animal-drawn carriages, all under certain terms and conditions.
And just one statement before we start. This is a very controversial issue. It's not the most controversial one that we've had in the five years I've been here and it probably won't be the most controversial. Without offending anyone, there's going to be some strong opinions on both sides, so try to keep it as short as you can. If there's something that you feel you can't say because of 8 /00 L&I - BILL 2 the time limitations, stay around and come back. I want to give everybody a chance -- or give it to us in writing 'cause that gets in the record. But I mean, people feel strongly on both sides of this issue, and we're trying to give a fair hearing, all right? Thank you.
Thank you very much. My name is Barbara Riebman, and I'm testifying as the former director of the Morris Animal Refuge, which is the only animal shelter in Center City Philadelphia. During my tenure as director during the 1980s, it was the shelter who received calls about carriage horses who had collapsed due to heat exhaustion and other health complications. This would happen several times each and every summer. We would rush to the scene and apply cool compresses. The horses were extremely debilitated, so it was very difficult to help them significantly. The site of a downed horse on the streets of the Center City was so horrifying, that it would immediately cause a dangerous traffic and pedestrian problem. The downed carriage horses are a common problem across the United States. 9 /00 L&I - BILL 2 Heat exhaustion is one of the many, many issues that need to be addressed to help the carriage horses. While the temperatures for most cities are taken many feet above the street, the actually reflected pavement temperature can be 30 to 50 degrees higher. In fact, the New York City Department of Transportation found that asphalt surfaces on city streets can reach a temperature of 200 degrees. Add in high humidity, then add in again direct exposure to exhaust fumes from vehicles, and you have a noxious, dangerous environment for horses as well as their drivers and patrons. I urge you to adopt an 89-degree high temperature threshold. While personally, I feel that this is still too high a temperature, it's certainly a step in the right direction. Additionally, I urge to you adopt a low-temperature threshold, and I'm going to amend this to 32 degrees. The reason I've amended it from my written commentary was that last night, apparently, there was some question about the validity of wind chill factors, and so perhaps a wiser position would be to take a strict 10 /00 L&I - BILL 2 temperature of 32 degrees Fahrenheit irrespective of wind chill. I urge you to limit the number of hours that horses can be in harness to a maximum of nine hours. I don't understand why we are so much higher, because most of the cities that I've researched have a 5- to 8-hour maximum. Currently our carriage horse have to work hours, plus 10 travel to and from the stables, even with good monitoring, which we know we do not have. This can mean the horses are hooked up to carriages for 11 to 12 hours. Finally, I urge you to adopt all the humane recommendations in the ordinance. These recommendations have the support of equine veterinarians from the Humane Society of the United States, and we have an HSUS person here today, the ASPCA, the Pennsylvania ASPCA, the Mayor's Animal Advisory Committee, and, of course, on and on and on, and many local regional humane organization as well. Thank you very much.
Thank you. Miss Riebman, could you just wait. Miss Riebman? 11 /00 L&I - BILL 2
I need to ask you a question, if you don't mind. I know you're in a hurry, but --
Okay. You said in the 1980s, you often had the problems with horses that were downed or suffering from heat exhaustion.
Was there a temperature threshold back in the '80s; do you remember?
For part of that time, there was not, and then we introduced an ordinance 17 approximately 15 years ago, which set a temperature threshold, but it was way too high, and I'm trying to remember what it was. In fact, I just remarked to Erik Hendricks that we were both here 15 years ago for the initial drafting of carriage horse legislation.
Since that new legislation, have you had any instances of downed horses? 12 /00 L&I - BILL 2
I can tell you that during my tenure of Morris, after that legislation was introduced, there was still a problem when I was there. Now, I left there in the mid to late '80s, so perhaps there was one summer overlap. But every single summer that I was there, we had problems, we had calls.
Do you ever recall any incidences where horses died as a result of heat exhaustion during your tenure there?
I have to be honest you, I did not follow up at that time because it was not our jurisdiction.
But there were horses there that we had tremendous difficulty -- we had to leave before they could be revived.
Bill Ferraro and Randy Hirschhorn from the Health Department. (Witnesses come forward.)
State your name and occupation for the stenographer, please.
William Ferraro, F-E-R-R-A-R-O, Chief of Vector Control Services for the Philadelphia Department of Public health.
Randall Hirschhorn, Director of Environmental Health Services, Philadelphia Department of Public Health.
Good afternoon, Mr. Chairman and members of Council. My name is William Ferraro, Chief of Vector Control Services of the Department of Public Health. With me today is Randall Hirschhorn, Director of Environmental Health Services. I am here to testify on behalf of Bill 217, which will amend portions of the ordinance that regulates carriage and rental horses. There are four City departments that share the responsibility for the regulation of the 14 /00 L&I - BILL 2 horse carriage industry. I will address those portions of the bill for which the Health Department has responsibility. These are: the welfare of the horses, including the conditions under which they work; and the removal of the solid and liquid wastes deposited on the streets of residential and commercial areas in and around the Independence Hall and Society Hill sections of Center City. The first issue, temperature under which the horses work, has been the subject of much debate and discussion and Council during the previous hearing on this matter, in meetings of a working group composed of representatives of City government, the Animal Advisory Committee, and the horse carriage trade, and by the general public -- especially those who take a strong interest in animal-related issues. Bill 217 would lower the present hot temperature working limit from 94 degrees Fahrenheit to 90 degrees, and for the first time, establish a cold-weather limit based on wind chill factor, which is the combined effects of temperature and relative humidity, of degrees 15 /00 L&I - BILL 2 or less. Research in veterinarian journals on this subject is lacking. However, it must be noted that at 95 degrees, just 1 degree higher than the present limit, the City's Health Commissioner would issue a human health advisory urging precautions that people must take to avoid heat stress and heat stroke. Horses, too, are susceptible to heat-related illness. While there has been considerable debate about whether 94 degrees is adequately protective of the health of the horses, without doubt, 94 degrees is more protective. The second issue is the matter of the removal of the urine and feces deposited by the horses on the city streets. For many years, the horses have left these deposits on the city streets, causing considerable discomfort to residents who live along the carriage routes and pedestrians who walk these streets, and expense to the City, which has had to divert its street- cleaning resources to provide relief to residents. No other industry that I'm aware of is allowed to deposit the solid and liquid waste associated with 16 /00 L&I - BILL 2 their commercial operation into the streets and then expect the City to clean that up waste at no 4 spends to them. Bill 217 would enable the Health Department and the Streets Department to develop an animal waste management program that would meet the standards of both the departments and would shift the responsibility to keep horse carriages routes clean and sanitary from the taxpayers to the companies that profit from the use of these routes. I will now be happy to answer any questions.
Anyone from the committee have any questions? Councilman Rizzo.
And are they out there? The police horses are out on patrol and is there someone that's assigned from the Streets Department to make sure that their urine and their 17 /00 L&I - BILL 2 feces is removed?
Councilman, there is a difference here in that the police horses are not on an established route, so their waste don't accumulate in a particular street or in a part of the City hour after hour or day after day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year. They do have, as I understand, in previous years, when I was in Bill Ferraro's job, the police, when they had an off-load from a horse, would radio in the location and someone would be by to pick it up.
On that same note, do the mounted police, do their horses go in after a certain temperature; do you know?
I'm not aware since there in a different mission, which is crime-fighting. I'm not aware of what their --
I understand that. I just was curious if they're being asked to live up to the same standards that we have either on the books today or maybe going forward. 18 /00 L&I - BILL 2 Are there any recommendations? Have you ever been in a position, either one of you, to recommend to the Philadelphia mounted police that if the temperature is X, then you should get the horses off the street? I was just curious if we ever participated in that.
It hasn't had to come up yet. The horses are not out there every day. And also, that brings up a point that I had wanted to make anyhow, which is, police horses are in the best of shape. However, the carriage industry, as I've had personal knowledge of in the past three months by being out at every stable, many of the horses out there are at the end of their life. So you would not, for example, expect a 60-year-old person to walk up 4 flights of stairs as they could when they were 20. And it's the same with these horses. Not only are many of them elderly, but they are kept in very poor conditions. So in the Health Department, when we're establishing standards, we have to do it for those who are the weakest and the least able to recover from the stresses of their work. So when we're 19 /00 L&I - BILL 2 talking about heat stress, we have a general advisory to the public, at 95 degrees, take the following measures. But we also alert at a much lower temperature facilities that care for the elderly -- people who are immunocompromised, for example -- that they have to take these precautions at a lower temperature. So when we're talking about setting standards, one thing I would please like to emphasize to Council is, don't base this on the best of the horses that you've seen; we must base this on those in the poorest shape. Ninety-four degrees is too hot. Ninety degrees, I believe, is not protective enough, but it's a lot better than ninety-four degrees.
You mentioned, Mr. Hirschhorn, when you do inspections of the stables and the condition of the horses, could you speak a little bit about the condition of the stables in the broadest sense. And then we can obviously narrow it down, and maybe without identifying those stables that may be doing the kind of care that we would all like to see the industry at large do. 20 /00 L&I - BILL 2 Because, I mean, of all the letters I've received from either the tourism council or the hotel industry or people who are in support of the carriages, they have all referenced one carriage company in particular. In fact, I even got a letter from the Northern Liberties Neighbors Association in support of continuing to allow carriages to operate in the City of Philadelphia, but they all referenced one of the carriage companies as being the ideal or the model company. And I think if it wasn't for the fact that the majority of the companies who are operating today, had they all been paying attention and caring for the horses the way that one company was, we probably wouldn't be here today, for the most part. So if I could just get a -- if you can, just enlighten us a little bit on what you have seen in your experience, and I'd appreciate that. Thank you.
I'd be glad to, and I thank you for the opportunity to do that. As I previously said, I have been to 21 /00 L&I - BILL 2 each of these stables not once but several times in recent months. We have four that are operating as carriage-horse stables in the City right now. One has been evicted from his stable by the owner of the property, so we're left with three. There is one that is in Northern Liberties that is in excellent shape and has been for quite some time, and there's no doubt in my mind that that stable's horses are rested from the time they come in off the street at night until they go out in the morning, so those horses are fit and able for the street. There is adequate ventilation to help them recover from the heat stress of the day. Now, the other stables, I cannot make that comment for. I wish I could, but I can't. There is a second stable that is much better than it ever was. It's been put into much better shape by its owner in recent months. The third stable has been temporarily closed because of the many hazards there -- fire code, etc. They want to reopen, but it's not in good shape. The horses are not getting rest at night, there's no way they possibly can. There is 22 /00 L&I - BILL 2 no provision of ventilation. And as for the fourth one, where the eviction occurred, that was in the worst shape of all.
Like, we're all adults here. Could you tell us the real names of these stables. It's legal -- I just consulted with my attorney.
Frank, I think we should know. We got somebody here that's --
But one of them, you know, there's litigation going on, and I don't know if -- I'm not an attorney and I don't know if that would have any influence on the --
'Cause we're lumping everybody together. This isn't our field of expertise. Could you -- the good one would be. . . ?
The good one, the one you said was in Northern Liberties would be. . . ?
And the other two that are not operating were trading as Society Hill Outback and Old City.
Two are currently in business, but the owners of the other two stables -- they have several trade names, which is why it seems like there's more than four. They have indicated that they want to come back into business.
Of the five companies that you identified, how many of them are licensed both by the City of Philadelphia an by the Interior Department Parks Service? 'Cause there's two licenses required as far as -- is there anyone from L&I who can answer that question, if you can? There's two licenses that are required, it's my understanding, to operate carriages in the City of Philadelphia. One is issued by the Department of Licenses and Inspections, and the other would be issued to anyone who wanted to operate within the geographical area of the Park 25 /00 L&I - BILL 2 Service, Independence Mall and so forth. (Witness comes forward.)
Sir, are you from the Department of Licenses and Inspections?
Would you state your name. I know you, but get on the record here.
Yes. I'm Otis Haigler, Jr., Legislative Regulatory Affairs Manager for the Department of Licenses and Inspections. To answer your question, the Department of Licenses and Inspections currently does not issue the licenses related to animals. Those duties were transferred to the Health Department by virtue of a memorandum of understanding between the Department of Licenses and Inspections and the Health Department. This memorandum was issued in 1997 at the direction of the Managing Director's Office. The Department of Health, they have specialized services and units to monitor animals, and that's why the licensing and enforcement functions were transferred to the Department of /00 L&I - BILL 2 Health.
I apologize, my mistake, I meant the Health Department. So -- but there's still two licenses that would be necessary to operate within the area of Independence Hall and the Park Service area.
Well, I couldn't speak for Independence Hall National Park Service staff because I'm not aware of all their regulations. But as far as the City licenses go, there are only two companies that right now are licensed.
So it may be two and at most three, although one company's out of business temporarily. And the reason I raise this question is, I think back in September or October of 1998, I had received a copy of a letter that had been sent by the Interior Department to all -- to the five companies that were doing business, advising them that as of October 31, 1999, the license to be able to operate within the Parks Service area was -- would expire, and they needed to be renewed. And to the best of your knowledge, maybe one, if not two, of those companies opted to renew 27 /00 L&I - BILL 2 their licenses. So in effect, there are companies out there -- one, two or three, I'm not sure -- that are actually operating without a license in the Park Service area. And I guess my next question is, what can we do about that? Can we do anything, or is that solely the responsibility of the Interior Department or the Park Service?
Well, sir, I can answer that for you partially. The Independence Park enforcement rangers, which are different than the guide rangers, have a jurisdictional boundary that they can enforce up to but not over. And part of my concern is that -- it's my belief that to avoid paying the National Park Service, the other carriage companies are parking nearby, in illegal spaces, which is something that when we set up -- if Bill 217 passes and we establish a points system whereby carriage companies are held responsible for their violations, that the police will be able to cite them for moving across the street, for example, to avoid having to pay that fee.
Thank you. And 28 /00 L&I - BILL 2 the reason I'm asking you these questions is, I'm much more familiar, obviously, with the issues than my colleagues up here at the table are, and I want to get it on the record. And we're trying to, you know, create a foundation here so they get a better understanding of what we're attempting to do. Because as a result of these companies that are non-licensed in that Park Service area, those are actually causing hardship for the two companies that are acting responsible and are properly licensed. Because when I go out to Fifth Street and start complaining as to why they're parking in bus zones, why they're parking along Chestnut Street, which they're prohibited from parking, even the good guys -- if I may reefer to them as "the good guys" -- have no place to park or stage along Fifth Street because the non-licensed guys are either using up their spots or some spots nearby. So, again, I'm trying to get this out 'cause I know my colleagues, it's probably all foreign to them what we're talking about, and I appreciate you responding the way you are. 29 /00 L&I - BILL 2
And, Councilman, if I could just add one more problem related to what you just mentioned. When the carriages are on the Park property, the rangers make sure those streets are kept clean. The other companies that have moved off onto the city streets now, there's no 8 one there, except the limited City resources, to make sure they keep the streets clean. So it's not going to be very long before the complaints start to mount, especially with the warmer weather.
And also, when the city created staging areas, it was done with a couple of reasons in mind. One was, obviously, we had to have a designated place for people to go if they chose to get on a carriage; and the other one was an issue of public safety. So that carriages are just not stopping anywhere in the middle of a block, close to an where it actually could put the public and the horses in harm's way. So that's the reason for staging areas and why we are hopefully going to be able to enforce that much better going forward. And we created a point system so that 30 /00 L&I - BILL 2 when the operator of a carriage is cited, the owner of the company will be assessed a certain amount of points, similar to what we do to a vehicle operator when he or she is cited for going through a red light or a stop sign; and if in fact they're found guilty, there's a certain number of points that are assessed against your license. Ultimately, it could lead to a suspension or a revocation of your driving privileges. So we're attempting here to have some better regulations and to put some more teeth into it so that the owners of the companies instruct their operators to be more aware of what the regulations are and have some, I guess, heavier hand in enforcing it by the possibility that you can actually be out of business if you don't advise, instruct, and educate your drivers or operators to be more in line with what the regulations are or pay attention to the laws of the road, basically.
Any other members of the committee have questions for these witnesses?
No, but I would 31 /00 L&I - BILL 2 appreciate it if you gentlemen can hang around a little bit longer; I think there may be some more questions for you. Thank you.
Sergeant Ed Margerum from the Center City District, and Mr. Hendricks from the Pennsylvania SPCA. (Witnesses come forward.)
State your name for the record, Sergeant. SGT. MARGERUM: Sergeant Ed Margerum, from the Center City District.
We usually let people with guns testify first. So, Sergeant, go ahead. (Laughter.) SGT. MARGERUM: With my experience in Center City, we've had a couple instances over the last year mainly because of all the construction downtown, especially down around Independence 32 /00 L&I - BILL 2 Mall. I believe it was early fall last year, when they were digging up the street right around the Hall, one of the carriages, when they let loose with the jackhammers on the street, bolted, flipped over the horse and the carriage, injuring the carriage driver. Now the only reason that pedestrians weren't injured, number one, was because it was early fall and there weren't as many visitors to the Hall, but they have the wooden partitions, I guess you call them, right at the curbline, which kept the carriage from going into the sidewalk area, which was very beneficial in that area. At Christmas time, they seem to make up their own rules and decide to go wherever they want. They will go all the way up to the 1300 block of Market Street, which causes an extremely hazardous condition because they refuse to go around the Hall with the flow of traffic, and they make a U-turn in the 1300 block of Market Street, causing the traffic going westbound to go around the Hall to stop and the traffic eastbound, while they make their turn and negotiate their turn to get into the cutout area off of the sidewalk. 33 /00 L&I - BILL 2
Can I ask you a question real quick? As a law enforcement official, do you have any authority over them to give them a traffic ticket? SGT. MARGERUM: Well, I'd like to know that myself.
Could you just try it and see if -- SGT. MARGERUM: Oh, yeah, we try.
And see if anybody notices? SGT. MARGERUM: Because I made a couple phone calls and I found out that they weren't permitted to go over there because all of these carriage drivers said they had permits, but nobody could produce anything for me.
And if they're acting recklessly -- SGT. MARGERUM: Absolutely, absolutely.
As a law enforcement official, you could -- SGT. MARGERUM: And they had one carriage operator that, after he gave the officer a hard time -- it wasn't myself, but another 34 /00 L&I - BILL 2 sergeant in the Center City District was called to the scene, and we were going to lock him up for disorderly conduct. That's how irate he became and how abusive he became.
Well, you have our permission to arrest any horse drivers that you want. SGT. MARGERUM: I agree.
You'll be famous. SGT. MARGERUM: Also, on Walnut Street, when you have -- most of the day, you have two lanes of traffic. When you have one carriage in one lane, it causes a rubber neck effect, with the traffic behind that carriage trying to get out over to the other lane and causing accidents while trying to get by.
Thanks. Any questions from the members for this witness? (No questions.)
Thank you for the 35 /00 L&I - BILL 2 opportunity to testify. As you may recall, in the past, I've testified that we would prefer that this temperature maximum actually be a heat index, which would include the humidity factor. However, in this existing amendment, or the one that's proposed, I will accede to the apparent desire of City Council that we keep it simple and use a straight temperature standard. I would rather see it be 89, but under most conditions, I think that 90 is an acceptable humane standard as the maximum working temperature for horses. On the other hand, the simplicity factor seems to have been forgotten when you established a standard at the bottom end of the scale, where you're using -- or at least proposing to use -- a wind chill factor. Wind chill, as you know, uses the actual wind at the moment to register what the wind chill factor is, and that's very capricious; that can change from second to second. And it would be really impossible to ever go to court with that kind of standard. I propose that you maintain a straight temperature standard, as you have at the upper end 36 /00 L&I - BILL 2 of the scale, and use 32 degrees, a straight temperature of 32 degrees, as the bottom working temperature. In other words, anything below 32, then the horses would have to leave work and head home. One other thing that is not addressed directly in the bill, but which I think should be brought up, is that the temperature standard that should be used, I believe, should be the official U.S. Weather Service airport temperature, since that is the one used by all radio and television stations, and anyone who tunes in to any station in Philadelphia will know what that temperature reading is at the moment. It's also a recorded temperature and it is legally unassailable. It can't be attacked in court as an instrument that might be held by a law enforcement officer could be because of its calibration and other factors. So while this isn't in the proposed amendment, I would suggest that it might be actually put in so that it could ensure that the Health Department does use that standard and not some local standard. This is an ordinance that applies 37 /00 L&I - BILL 2 throughout the City of Philadelphia, and I suggest that this standard be uniformly applied throughout the City and not -- and we should not rely on a clock, or I should say, a temperature reading off the KYW building, as was once proposed. That has too many variabilities. It even varies from the temperature that they put out on the air. So it's very confusing when the public calls up and says, I heard it this hot, and we go down to the city -- to the carriage area, we find that the temperature reading on the building is lower. So if we use a uniform temperature at the airport, it will solve all of those problems. And that's basically the only aspect of the amendments that I have any concerns with. I think it is well past time that City Council act on this. We've been here before and it's been going on many years now that amendments have been put up and they die in committee. And I'm hoping that this will finally be the year that something is really done to help these working horses throughout Philadelphia. Thank you very much.
Thank you. 38 /00 L&I - BILL 2 Any questions for this witness? Councilman DiCicco?
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you, Mr. Hendricks, for your testimony. We had discussed the very issue about where do we get temperature from because we understand there are different sections of the City, and we will have that in there, that it should come from the National Weather Service.
At the airport. And I will offer that as an amendment to the bill.
Temperature, high end. I get all kinds of different recommendations, suggestions, opinions -- even when speaking to veterinarians. One veterinarian, as recently as Sunday, said, Well, you know, 94 degrees isn't really all that bad. Horses are used to working, they've been doing things for mankind since the beginning of mankind. And in his opinion, if the horses are given adequate fresh water and I believe shodding -- is that the 39 /00 L&I - BILL 2 correct word?
Shoeing or shodding, whatever the term is, if that is done and they're cared for properly, in his opinion, 94 degrees is -- you know, it's not the best but it's not all that bad. And in fact, when I met him on Sunday, he and two of his friends were out horseback riding, and as we all know, Sunday was a very hot and humid day. And on my return from Bucks County, I took one of the back ways home, and lots of people were out riding horses in Fairmount Park, coming through East River Drive. There were a number of people who were out and the temperature, I think, was probably in the 94-95 degree range, and it was a very humid day. And these are people who I have a lot of respect for, these are people who obviously enjoy horseback riding and are horse enthusiasts, if I can use that term. 40 /00 L&I - BILL 2 In recent years, have you had -- has the SPCA had any incidences of horses dying from heat exhaustion or anything like that? And what are --
No, but I hope you're not going to wait till one dies before you do something about it. (Applause.)
No. And not to be sarcastic, I think we are doing something about it. And, again, as I said in my opening statement, whatever I propose as an amendment -- and, obviously, it will be for this committee to decide -- will probably not make everybody happy because even those who think that it still should be 89, and I proposed in one of my bills 92, and then a subsequent bill at 90, and they're still not very happy with that. But that being said, there are some things in here I think that we are going to act responsible as a Council and do some things and make some changes to the existing legislation and regulations that will tighten up what goes on out there. 41 /00 L&I - BILL 2 And, again, I think -- what I've gotten from most people way back two years ago when we had a public hearing on this very bill is that care of the animal, the stable conditions, the number of hours they're in harness, fresh water supply, the maintenance of the horse, the shodding or whatever, are paramount to mostly everything else. And if you've got a horse out in 94 degrees, naturally you're not going to run that horse at a full pace, but if you're running it -- riding a horse and you're sitting on the horse's back, which most people do when they ride a horse, even at 94 degrees, it's not the best condition but it is something that is not life-threatening. Now, I'm sure that we can have people who will disagree with that. I mean, that is obvious. As we will have people who will disagree that 90 is still too high. And I don't know what that magic number is, and I respect your opinion, as I do everyone else's. I remember two years ago when we had a hearing, I asked about the low temperature, and there was a woman who was here -- I believe she 42 /00 L&I - BILL 2 was a veterinarian from somewhere up in Vermont or somewhere, and I asked her a question. I said, you know, when it's 60 degrees out there, Frank DiCicco, I'm cold. I have friends of mine who walk around with sleeveless T-shirts when it's 40 degrees. And horses have the same kind of characteristics. The veterinarian I spoke to on Sunday, when I asked him about the cold temperature, he said, Well, I don't know if I'd put a blanket on most horses, he said, because, you know, in the winter, when their fur gets to be kind of fluffy, the fluffiness of the coat acts as an insulation. Should you put a blanket on them and they begin to sweat, the hair, the fur or the coat begins to flatten out, and the horse loses its natural insulation to cold. So, you know, it's this constant back and forth. One would think that when the temperature reads 32 or below or what have you, that putting a blanket on anybody or any animal would be the more appropriate way, and he had suggested that he wouldn't do that.
I agree that the 43 /00 L&I - BILL 2 healthy horse is the ultimate. Unfortunately, it's difficult when you look at a horse to know what health it's in. So I think you have to have some rules and regulations that apply generally. And I think that you have to look at this temperature that we're looking at as also a gauge of the humaneness of Philadelphia, not just what is the breaking point of the typical working horse. And I think that's something you have to keep in mind.
And I am keeping that in mind. Just let me finish. And I agree, I agree. But I also look -- the other morning coming in, Monday morning, coming to work, I saw a guy out there with a jackhammer, 94 degrees. I left my office, went to Walnut Street, I forget what I went there for now, but he was still jackhammering away at 2:30 in the afternoon. And I'm sure he'd rather not be out there but, you know, I don't know what the magic number is, I just don't know, but I do appreciate and respect your opinion.
Well, it is an 44 /00 L&I - BILL 2 arbitrary number, but that's what City Council has to do.
Yeah, I know, and we're going to do something, but --
I just wanted to follow up and I don't know if you're the right guy. I wanted to ask this -- I just wanted to just jump in there and ask a quick question. Councilman DiCicco is making an analogy between a horse that's ridden versus a driving horse. Are you the right guy to ask if there's a difference? Do we separate a horse that's being ridden versus one that's being driven?
Well, no, just -- we're talking about horse -- the Councilman said he saw a horse being ridden up in Bucks County, he saw horses being ridden along the Kelly Drive. 45 /00 L&I - BILL 2 We're talking two different types of horses: we're talking a horse that is a driving horse versus a horse that's a horse for horseback riding. Are they two different?
In terms of calories expended, I don't think that anybody's going to say that a horse that is carrying a 150-pound person, just, you know, doing normal walking, not galloping -- he could be walking or cantering -- for maybe an hour at the most is not going to put out a whole lot of calories relative to a horse, even though it might even be a slightly bigger horse, that's pulling a carriage that might itself weigh a half a ton, then have six people in it weighing another half a ton. So you've got at least a ton that you're pulling. And if those axles aren't greased properly, if there are problems with any kind of mechanics of the vehicle, it adds more work to it. So I think you have to look at the load that he's carrying, the wagon that's being used, and then figure out which is the worst. But I would say, in general, carrying one person on your back is a lot easier than dragging a carriage load 46 /00 L&I - BILL 2 behind you, especially on pavement.
Okay. Any other questions for this witness? (No further questions.)
Thank you. Bill Hawkins and Valerie Phillips. (witnesses come forward.)
I'm Valerie Phillips. I'm Chairperson of the Mayor's Animal Advisory Committee.
And you're the lady with the place in Bucks County that DiCicco went to and didn't bring us?
Would you pull that microphone a little closer, Valerie, please. 47 /00 L&I - BILL 2
We would be delighted. Yes, you may. And I do -- I have a little different spin. Mine is very short. What I do want to say is, one, it was delightful to have Councilman DiCicco up. The veterinarian that he spoke to happens to raise horses in the Olympics. So you're talk about a totally different type of horse than what is in the City of Philadelphia. And once I told him what this was all about, the vet, when he, and it was actually my husband who went riding with him. He said, "I would shoot anyone that does not keep horses in decent conditions." So I just wanted to bring that up for the record. I think that if he had seen some of the stables which Mr. Hawkins and I have seen in this city, he would not have made 48 /00 L&I - BILL 2 that comment to you. And so I just want to say, as Chairperson of the Animal Advisory Committee, speaking for the committee, we strongly urge passing humane conditions for these horses. And I want to take this from a humane perspective, and let me just read my -- I was not prepared to speak, so let me just tell you what we think. It's the humane perception which must be addressed here as well. Concerned citizens and visitors do not like to witness working in sweltering heat, as can be seen by the numerous complaints that have been made to the Department of Health Department, the Pennsylvania Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals, and our committee. And one of the goals of our committee has been to make Philadelphia an example of a City which attempts to address and improve the conditions of its animals. I think that bodes well, not only for the City, but also for its citizens, and it might also set an example for some of the citizens. And so this type of legislation, which 49 /00 L&I - BILL 2 ultimately results from your hearing, will be a major factor in whether we achieve that goal as a city.
You can find our -- I'm not being facetious here. If any of you would like to come up, you can find directions on our Web site, which is Honey Hollow Farm dot.com.
Since you offered, if Councilman Clarke and I come up and we drive our motorcycles, will that scare the horses?
The pig? I'm always nervous when I pass the horses. Mr. Hawkins?
My name is William Hawkins. I'm a consultant to the Mayor's Animal 50 /00 L&I - BILL 2 Advisory Committee on Carriage Horses in this particular instance. And I'd like to echo the same sentiment that Valerie Phillips mentioned, that a lot of the issues that we're dealing with today are particularly of the humane nature. And for years, Philadelphia has had weak regulations and poor enforcement when it comes to the horse carriage trade. We've already begun to improve enforcement, but now City Council has an opportunity to ensure that we have the right regulations in place. Bill 217 will help do that. We owe it to the horses, we owe it to the residents and the tourists, and we owe it to the City of Philadelphia. If we compromise on this legislation, we are sending a message to the carriage industry that they are in the driver's seat. The ordinance, as written, is practical legislation that deals with long overdue business and humane standards for the horse carriage trade. It includes much-needed decent, humane working 51 /00 L&I - BILL 2 conditions for Philadelphia's carriage horses. The vast majority of cities in the United States have already adopted similar standards, or standards that are significantly more restrictive. Even New York City -- not known for its compassion for humans, let alone animals -- has a shorter workday for their horses and a much lower temperature, at 90 degrees. And currently, they are considering lowering it to 89. I'm here today not only as a representative of the Mayor's Animal Advisory Committee, but also the Society Hill Civic Association and as a resident of that community and also as someone who has lived in Philadelphia for 28 years and loves this city. What I do not like is the way the City treats our carriage horses, and it's time we did what is right. I and others advocating these changes are not here to do away with the horse carriages, as the carriage companies would have you believe. We do not want to put them out of business, we do not want to restrict entrepreneurship. As a small-business owner myself, I am very sensitive to that concern. 52 /00 L&I - BILL 2 We are here to ask for your support for of meaningful changes to the rules, such as you see in the ordinance. If the carriage companies within Philadelphia were to move to another city, they would have to contend immediately with shorter business hours, dramatically reduced work hours for the horses and an even lower temperature than 90 degrees. S. cities have banned the carriage trade altogether rather than contend with the problems that far outweigh the benefits. These changes are the absolute minimum we should be implementing. In meetings just over a year ago with the 76 Carriage Company, the Mayor's Animal Advisory Committee and the Health Department, even the veterinarian for the 76 Carriage Company, Dr. Schilling, agreed with another equine expert who was on a conference call with us and supported an 89-degree temperature threshold, as well as the 9 hours in harness rule. I know that Councilman DiCicco has received many calls, letters, and faxes over the past few years from City residents who have 53 /00 L&I - BILL 2 requested major improvements to the horses' working conditions, as well as changes that truly affect waste management, carriage routes, and tourist safety issues. As vice president of the Society Hill Civil Association, I frequently receive calls from residents that I passed along to the various City departments, including the Philadelphia Police Department. There are numerous accounts of accidents and horses getting spooked by loud noises. And as you heard earlier, there was an accident last year which resulted in three tourists being treated at Jefferson Hospital. I and others have witnessed many near-misses of slow-moving carriages turning into lanes of fast-moving traffic. The list goes on and on.
If Philadelphia is serious about tourism -- and we've heard today that the tourist industry is probably in support of the carriage companies, and that's fine, we're not here to do away with the carriage industry, we've said that. But it's time that we become a lot more responsible with how we're treating the industry. And as vehicular transportation in our community 54 /00 L&I - BILL 2 becomes more difficult each year, the likelihood of a very serious accident involving tourists as well as residents increases. There has been a slight increase in accidents each year. While some people enjoy carriage rides, the vast majority of tourists quite frankly do not, you'd be surprised. " Although some City tourism brochures show the good side of the carriage trade, a darker side has been exposed. Two stables were shut down due to deplorable conditions, as you heard, recently. And, yesterday, criminal charges were filed against two people associated with one of the carriage companies. That's a first; it probably won't be the last. If we don't clean up our own act in Philadelphia, then we will get a reputation for being a less-than-humane city, and we don't want that. And this is the city, which, by the way, established one of the first humane societies in the entire country. 55 /00 L&I - BILL 2 The carriage companies have long ignored the approved carriage routes, blocking traffic on Market Street -- we've heard that -- and others, especially in the holiday season. And they continually go down off-limit side streets, and this is every carriage company -- no carriage company is exempt. Approved carriage routes must also apply to the weekends. If not, then we have no 11 real controls. The apparent ability for the carriages to go anywhere on the weekend is among the most ridiculous of the current regulations. Now they're picking up residents at their homes on the weekend and taking them to restaurants, a taxi service, which is not their intention. Philadelphia has among the most -- the worst working conditions in the country for carriage horses, one of the highest temperature thresholds at 94, no low temperature, and the longest number of hours worked -- 10 hours. That is why we very much support 89-degree high temperature threshold, because, as you've heard, when it's combined with the street level, that's 120 to 150, which is very, very different. Add to 56 /00 L&I - BILL 2 that the SEPTA buses and car fumes belching out in front of the horses, in the face of the horses, and you have very bad working conditions. And I must disagree with the recommendation that the airport temperature be used; or if it is considered, that we give additional consideration to it. The reason being, if you've listened to the airport temperature and you've checked against the temperature in Center City, there's often a 3- to 5-degree difference. It's cooler in the airport, at the airport. )
For about an hour or so. So what you would be doing is exposing the horses to a higher temperature than they should be. The way to measure temperature, especially for horses who are operating on their hooves on the street, is to take it at the street temperature where they're doing their business.
Mr. Hawkins, let me ask you -- let me stop you there. Did you just say that the temperature at the airport is cooler? I know you said that, but did you say it's cooler for an hour or so? 57 /00 L&I - BILL 2
There's a difference of about an hour. It seems that -- if it's, for instance, 90 at the airport, it's probably going to be 92, 93, 94 in Center City for some time.
It's not a theory. It's having heard the weather reports for a number of years. In fact, that's why I've always been concerned about the airport being used as the measurement. I know it's easy, I know it's simple, but that is not where the horses conduct their business.
And would you happen to know where they get the temperature for the Center City reading?
The Center City reading -- KYW Radio has a temperature gauge in their building. It's not the one that you see on the front of the building; it's somewhere else on the building.
It's probably on the low side. Isn't that difference also on the low side?
On the bottom of the temperature scales, isn't there also a difference from the airport?
It's interesting, Councilman Clarke. I haven't noticed that as much as I have the high temperature.
Let me just cut you short just a more minute. While we're getting into it, I'm just amazed at all these advisory councils that we have. Explain to me this Mayor's Advisory Council and how one gets on that and what expertise. And I don't know you, I met you when you came to my office and it was a very nice discussion, but you're testifying like an expert on temperatures and you're testifying to know a lot about horses and the carriage industry. What do you got to do to be on that; do you have to be an expert on temperatures, on horses, or just know the Mayor? Which one is it? 59 /00 L&I - BILL 2
I'll ask the president of the committee to answer that question.
Well, we know why you're there. You let DiCicco come to your farm. That's --
And that is our main function. I think most people there -- it was at a certain time a criterion who was on this committee.
Is there any -- do you just have to be an animal-lover to be on it?
Do you have to be -- is there any veterinarians on it? 60 /00 L&I - BILL 2
Yes, there is a veterinarian. Everybody on the committee, except for me, actually has a particular, you know, bent with animals.
He is not on the board, but there was someone from the SPCA, and I am a board member of the Pennsylvania SPCA.
Oh, okay. The one up in my district on Erie Avenue that doesn't return my calls, that one?
About dogs barking all night, that same one? Now I know. Matter of fact, when they bark and the people call my house, I could have 'em call your farm in Bucks County?
Well, other than 61 /00 L&I - BILL 2 that, we want 'em, but --
There are at this 7 point, and each one has some kind of expertise. 8
So one person would be a veterinarian, someone else would have a farm like yourself?
No, no, it nothing to do with having a farm; it has to do actually with --
What credentials? I mean, could I be on it? I'm a City Councilman, and I was an electrician before this.