COUNCIL OF THE CITY OF PHILADELPHIA PUBLIC HEARING BEFORE THE COUNCIL COMMITTEE ON LICENSES AND INSPECTIONS - - - Room 400, City Hall Philadelphia, Pennsylvania Thursday, May 11, 2000 2:30 p.m. - - - BILL 000217 - An ordinance amending Section 9-402 of the Philadelphia Code, entitled "Animal Drawn Carriages," and Section 10-108, entitled "Rental Carriage Horses," by making various changes to the provisions governing the animal-drawn carriage business and the use of horses in such business, and amending the approved routes for animal-drawn carriages, all under certain terms and conditions PRESENT: COUNCILMAN RICHARD T. MARIANO, Chair COUNCILMAN DARRELL CLARKE, Vice Chair COUNCILMAN DAVID COHEN COUNCILMAN FRANK DICICCO COUNCILMAN MICHAEL A. NUTTER COUNCILMAN ANGEL L. ORTIZ COUNCILWOMAN BLONDELL REYNOLDS BROWN COUNCILMAN FRANK RIZZO - - - VINCENT VARALLO ASSOCIATES, INC. Registered Professional Reporters Eleven Penn Center, Suite 600 Philadelphia, PA 19103 (215) 561-2220 2 5/11/00 L&I COMMITTEE - BILL 000217 I N D E X *Barbara Riebman, Former Director . . . . . . Morris Animal Refuge 5 William Ferraro, Chief of Vector Control. . . 13 6 Services, Philadelphia Dept. of Public Health 7 Randall Hirschhorn, Director of Environmental 13 Health Services, Phila. Dept. of Public Health 8 Otis Haigler, Jr. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 25 Legislative Regulatory Affairs Manager, L&I Sgt. Ed Margerum, Center City District. . . . 31 *Erik Hendricks, Pennsylvania SPCA. . . . . . 31 *Valerie Phillips, Animal Advisory Committee 46 *William Hawkins, Consultant, Mayor's Animal 49 Advisory Committee on Carriage Horses *Bush Bell, General Manager . . . . . . . . . 79 Sheraton Society Hill, Second and Dock Streets Patricia Washington, Vice President . . . . . 89 Grants and Partnerships, Greater Philadelphia Tourism Marketing Corporation *J. Grimes, Esq., Counsel to 76 Carriage Co. 100 *Dr. Ellen Buck, Director, Equine Protection 104 Humane Society of the United States Tina Nelson, Executive Director . . . . . . . 117 American Anti-Vivisection Society *Roberta Spivek, Chair. . . . . . . . . . . . 120 Carriage Horse Action Alliance *David Cantor, East Coast Field . . . . . . . 123 Representative, Animal Protection Institute 3 5/11/00 L&I COMMITTEE - BILL 000217 (Index, cont'd.) Leslie Fleisher. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 129 Mayor's Animal Advisory Committee Laura Homer, Carriage Driver Tester . . . . . 131 Michael Slocum, President, 76 Carriage Co. 142 Edwin Goldsmith, Esq., Council. . . . . . . . 179 Philadelphia Carriage Company Dr. Samuel Geller, Veterinarian . . . . . . . 180 An owner, Quakertown Veterinarian Clinic Bashier Ahmed, Owner. . . . . . . . . . . . . 202 Philadelphia Carriage Co. Former Councilman James Tayoun. . . . . . . . 207 Violet Aharonian, Private Citizen . . . . . . 217 (Not a Philadelphian) Jason Metivier, Carriage Driver Trainee . . . 223 Jennifer Taylor, Carriage Driver. . . . . . . 225 Philadelphia Carriage Company (* - Also provided written testimony, attached.) Written Testimony Only (Attached) Provided By: - Charlie Pizzi, Chairman, Philadelphia Chamber of Commerce - Charlie Heinz, General Manager, Marriott Hotel and Chair, Convention Visitors Bureau's Government Affairs Committee - Dr. Dale Schilling, Veterinarian 4 /00 L&I - BILL 2 P R O C E E D I N G S
The public hearing for the Committee on Licenses and Inspections will come to order. Councilman DiCicco, to my left, would like to make a statement.
Thank you, Councilman Mariano. And I thank everyone for coming today and I apologize for my delay in coming up here -- I was having a briefing with the Mayor concerning some TIF legislation. As you know, I drafted a bill, I guess almost two years ago, to try to deal with the issue of the horse carriage industry as it relates to the City of Philadelphia. I have received an enormous amount of correspondence from people on both sides of the issue -- if I can refer to it as "both sides of the issue." I've received a number of correspondence from the hotel industry, the tourism industry, letters from animal activists, letters from residents in and around the Society Hill community, all of which I thank you for your participation and your input. I will be making some recommendations to this committee at the end of the testimony that 5 /00 L&I - BILL 2 will be coming forth from people in the chambers today. I am certain at this point in the proceedings that in the end, when I finally make my recommendations, that no one in this room will be happy, or at least entirely happy, but some decisions have to be made, and I think that the recommendations that I will be making are in the best of interests of all parties. Again, I don't expect everyone to agree with me on that, but I'm going to attempt to do something with this legislation that will make for better conditions for everyone who has to live and work in the carriage industry business. The other thing I was going to let you know is that I have not just paid attention to correspondence or just meeting people on the streets. As recently as this past week, I took a ride out to Bucks County and went to Valerie Phillips' place to see her beautiful farm and bed and breakfast. I didn't stay overnight but stayed for the day. As many of you know in this audience, Valerie was a part of original horse legislation and was referred to me by then-Mayor Rendell as someone who could enlighten me on the 6 /00 L&I - BILL 2 issue of the horse carriages in the City of Philadelphia. By chance when I was there this past Sunday, I met a neighbor of hers, a veterinarian, and had about a half hour discussion on this very issue, and that veterinarian gave me some insight, which I believe has made me make my final decisions as to amendments or recommendations that I will make to the bill 10 today. Valerie, I want to thank you, and I thank the Chair for allowing me a few minutes just to discuss my feelings with all of you.
Thank you, Councilman. I would like to introduce the rest of the committee now. There's Councilman Rizzo to the left and the lovely Councilwoman Blondell Reynolds Brown -- we say that every time. Of course, we know Councilman DiCicco's here, that's the reason we're here today. And we have Councilman Clarke and Michael Nutter, who's on the phone, and Councilman Cohen just entered the room. The rest of the people here are just aides and lawyers and don't need to be introduced. 7 /00 L&I - BILL 2 Let's see, Barbara? Barbara Riebman asked to go first. (Witness comes forward.)
Bill No. 000217, an ordinance amending Section 9-402 of the Philadelphia Code, entitled "Animal Drawn Carriages," and Section 10-108, entitled "Rental Carriage Horses," by making various changes to the provisions governing the animal-drawn carriage business and the use of horses in such business, and amending the approved routes for animal-drawn carriages, all under certain terms and conditions.
And just one statement before we start. This is a very controversial issue. It's not the most controversial one that we've had in the five years I've been here and it probably won't be the most controversial. Without offending anyone, there's going to be some strong opinions on both sides, so try to keep it as short as you can. If there's something that you feel you can't say because of 8 /00 L&I - BILL 2 the time limitations, stay around and come back. I want to give everybody a chance -- or give it to us in writing 'cause that gets in the record. But I mean, people feel strongly on both sides of this issue, and we're trying to give a fair hearing, all right? Thank you.
Thank you very much. My name is Barbara Riebman, and I'm testifying as the former director of the Morris Animal Refuge, which is the only animal shelter in Center City Philadelphia. During my tenure as director during the 1980s, it was the shelter who received calls about carriage horses who had collapsed due to heat exhaustion and other health complications. This would happen several times each and every summer. We would rush to the scene and apply cool compresses. The horses were extremely debilitated, so it was very difficult to help them significantly. The site of a downed horse on the streets of the Center City was so horrifying, that it would immediately cause a dangerous traffic and pedestrian problem. The downed carriage horses are a common problem across the United States. 9 /00 L&I - BILL 2 Heat exhaustion is one of the many, many issues that need to be addressed to help the carriage horses. While the temperatures for most cities are taken many feet above the street, the actually reflected pavement temperature can be 30 to 50 degrees higher. In fact, the New York City Department of Transportation found that asphalt surfaces on city streets can reach a temperature of 200 degrees. Add in high humidity, then add in again direct exposure to exhaust fumes from vehicles, and you have a noxious, dangerous environment for horses as well as their drivers and patrons. I urge you to adopt an 89-degree high temperature threshold. While personally, I feel that this is still too high a temperature, it's certainly a step in the right direction. Additionally, I urge to you adopt a low-temperature threshold, and I'm going to amend this to 32 degrees. The reason I've amended it from my written commentary was that last night, apparently, there was some question about the validity of wind chill factors, and so perhaps a wiser position would be to take a strict 10 /00 L&I - BILL 2 temperature of 32 degrees Fahrenheit irrespective of wind chill. I urge you to limit the number of hours that horses can be in harness to a maximum of nine hours. I don't understand why we are so much higher, because most of the cities that I've researched have a 5- to 8-hour maximum. Currently our carriage horse have to work hours, plus 10 travel to and from the stables, even with good monitoring, which we know we do not have. This can mean the horses are hooked up to carriages for 11 to 12 hours. Finally, I urge you to adopt all the humane recommendations in the ordinance. These recommendations have the support of equine veterinarians from the Humane Society of the United States, and we have an HSUS person here today, the ASPCA, the Pennsylvania ASPCA, the Mayor's Animal Advisory Committee, and, of course, on and on and on, and many local regional humane organization as well. Thank you very much.
Thank you. Miss Riebman, could you just wait. Miss Riebman? 11 /00 L&I - BILL 2
I need to ask you a question, if you don't mind. I know you're in a hurry, but --
Okay. You said in the 1980s, you often had the problems with horses that were downed or suffering from heat exhaustion.
Was there a temperature threshold back in the '80s; do you remember?
For part of that time, there was not, and then we introduced an ordinance 17 approximately 15 years ago, which set a temperature threshold, but it was way too high, and I'm trying to remember what it was. In fact, I just remarked to Erik Hendricks that we were both here 15 years ago for the initial drafting of carriage horse legislation.
Since that new legislation, have you had any instances of downed horses? 12 /00 L&I - BILL 2
I can tell you that during my tenure of Morris, after that legislation was introduced, there was still a problem when I was there. Now, I left there in the mid to late '80s, so perhaps there was one summer overlap. But every single summer that I was there, we had problems, we had calls.
Do you ever recall any incidences where horses died as a result of heat exhaustion during your tenure there?
I have to be honest you, I did not follow up at that time because it was not our jurisdiction.
But there were horses there that we had tremendous difficulty -- we had to leave before they could be revived.
Bill Ferraro and Randy Hirschhorn from the Health Department. (Witnesses come forward.)
State your name and occupation for the stenographer, please.
William Ferraro, F-E-R-R-A-R-O, Chief of Vector Control Services for the Philadelphia Department of Public health.
Randall Hirschhorn, Director of Environmental Health Services, Philadelphia Department of Public Health.
Good afternoon, Mr. Chairman and members of Council. My name is William Ferraro, Chief of Vector Control Services of the Department of Public Health. With me today is Randall Hirschhorn, Director of Environmental Health Services. I am here to testify on behalf of Bill 217, which will amend portions of the ordinance that regulates carriage and rental horses. There are four City departments that share the responsibility for the regulation of the 14 /00 L&I - BILL 2 horse carriage industry. I will address those portions of the bill for which the Health Department has responsibility. These are: the welfare of the horses, including the conditions under which they work; and the removal of the solid and liquid wastes deposited on the streets of residential and commercial areas in and around the Independence Hall and Society Hill sections of Center City. The first issue, temperature under which the horses work, has been the subject of much debate and discussion and Council during the previous hearing on this matter, in meetings of a working group composed of representatives of City government, the Animal Advisory Committee, and the horse carriage trade, and by the general public -- especially those who take a strong interest in animal-related issues. Bill 217 would lower the present hot temperature working limit from 94 degrees Fahrenheit to 90 degrees, and for the first time, establish a cold-weather limit based on wind chill factor, which is the combined effects of temperature and relative humidity, of degrees 15 /00 L&I - BILL 2 or less. Research in veterinarian journals on this subject is lacking. However, it must be noted that at 95 degrees, just 1 degree higher than the present limit, the City's Health Commissioner would issue a human health advisory urging precautions that people must take to avoid heat stress and heat stroke. Horses, too, are susceptible to heat-related illness. While there has been considerable debate about whether 94 degrees is adequately protective of the health of the horses, without doubt, 94 degrees is more protective. The second issue is the matter of the removal of the urine and feces deposited by the horses on the city streets. For many years, the horses have left these deposits on the city streets, causing considerable discomfort to residents who live along the carriage routes and pedestrians who walk these streets, and expense to the City, which has had to divert its street- cleaning resources to provide relief to residents. No other industry that I'm aware of is allowed to deposit the solid and liquid waste associated with 16 /00 L&I - BILL 2 their commercial operation into the streets and then expect the City to clean that up waste at no 4 spends to them. Bill 217 would enable the Health Department and the Streets Department to develop an animal waste management program that would meet the standards of both the departments and would shift the responsibility to keep horse carriages routes clean and sanitary from the taxpayers to the companies that profit from the use of these routes. I will now be happy to answer any questions.
Anyone from the committee have any questions? Councilman Rizzo.
And are they out there? The police horses are out on patrol and is there someone that's assigned from the Streets Department to make sure that their urine and their 17 /00 L&I - BILL 2 feces is removed?
Councilman, there is a difference here in that the police horses are not on an established route, so their waste don't accumulate in a particular street or in a part of the City hour after hour or day after day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year. They do have, as I understand, in previous years, when I was in Bill Ferraro's job, the police, when they had an off-load from a horse, would radio in the location and someone would be by to pick it up.
On that same note, do the mounted police, do their horses go in after a certain temperature; do you know?
I'm not aware since there in a different mission, which is crime-fighting. I'm not aware of what their --
I understand that. I just was curious if they're being asked to live up to the same standards that we have either on the books today or maybe going forward. 18 /00 L&I - BILL 2 Are there any recommendations? Have you ever been in a position, either one of you, to recommend to the Philadelphia mounted police that if the temperature is X, then you should get the horses off the street? I was just curious if we ever participated in that.
It hasn't had to come up yet. The horses are not out there every day. And also, that brings up a point that I had wanted to make anyhow, which is, police horses are in the best of shape. However, the carriage industry, as I've had personal knowledge of in the past three months by being out at every stable, many of the horses out there are at the end of their life. So you would not, for example, expect a 60-year-old person to walk up 4 flights of stairs as they could when they were 20. And it's the same with these horses. Not only are many of them elderly, but they are kept in very poor conditions. So in the Health Department, when we're establishing standards, we have to do it for those who are the weakest and the least able to recover from the stresses of their work. So when we're 19 /00 L&I - BILL 2 talking about heat stress, we have a general advisory to the public, at 95 degrees, take the following measures. But we also alert at a much lower temperature facilities that care for the elderly -- people who are immunocompromised, for example -- that they have to take these precautions at a lower temperature. So when we're talking about setting standards, one thing I would please like to emphasize to Council is, don't base this on the best of the horses that you've seen; we must base this on those in the poorest shape. Ninety-four degrees is too hot. Ninety degrees, I believe, is not protective enough, but it's a lot better than ninety-four degrees.
You mentioned, Mr. Hirschhorn, when you do inspections of the stables and the condition of the horses, could you speak a little bit about the condition of the stables in the broadest sense. And then we can obviously narrow it down, and maybe without identifying those stables that may be doing the kind of care that we would all like to see the industry at large do. 20 /00 L&I - BILL 2 Because, I mean, of all the letters I've received from either the tourism council or the hotel industry or people who are in support of the carriages, they have all referenced one carriage company in particular. In fact, I even got a letter from the Northern Liberties Neighbors Association in support of continuing to allow carriages to operate in the City of Philadelphia, but they all referenced one of the carriage companies as being the ideal or the model company. And I think if it wasn't for the fact that the majority of the companies who are operating today, had they all been paying attention and caring for the horses the way that one company was, we probably wouldn't be here today, for the most part. So if I could just get a -- if you can, just enlighten us a little bit on what you have seen in your experience, and I'd appreciate that. Thank you.
I'd be glad to, and I thank you for the opportunity to do that. As I previously said, I have been to 21 /00 L&I - BILL 2 each of these stables not once but several times in recent months. We have four that are operating as carriage-horse stables in the City right now. One has been evicted from his stable by the owner of the property, so we're left with three. There is one that is in Northern Liberties that is in excellent shape and has been for quite some time, and there's no doubt in my mind that that stable's horses are rested from the time they come in off the street at night until they go out in the morning, so those horses are fit and able for the street. There is adequate ventilation to help them recover from the heat stress of the day. Now, the other stables, I cannot make that comment for. I wish I could, but I can't. There is a second stable that is much better than it ever was. It's been put into much better shape by its owner in recent months. The third stable has been temporarily closed because of the many hazards there -- fire code, etc. They want to reopen, but it's not in good shape. The horses are not getting rest at night, there's no way they possibly can. There is 22 /00 L&I - BILL 2 no provision of ventilation. And as for the fourth one, where the eviction occurred, that was in the worst shape of all.
Like, we're all adults here. Could you tell us the real names of these stables. It's legal -- I just consulted with my attorney.
Frank, I think we should know. We got somebody here that's --
But one of them, you know, there's litigation going on, and I don't know if -- I'm not an attorney and I don't know if that would have any influence on the --
'Cause we're lumping everybody together. This isn't our field of expertise. Could you -- the good one would be. . . ?
The good one, the one you said was in Northern Liberties would be. . . ?
And the other two that are not operating were trading as Society Hill Outback and Old City.
Two are currently in business, but the owners of the other two stables -- they have several trade names, which is why it seems like there's more than four. They have indicated that they want to come back into business.
Of the five companies that you identified, how many of them are licensed both by the City of Philadelphia an by the Interior Department Parks Service? 'Cause there's two licenses required as far as -- is there anyone from L&I who can answer that question, if you can? There's two licenses that are required, it's my understanding, to operate carriages in the City of Philadelphia. One is issued by the Department of Licenses and Inspections, and the other would be issued to anyone who wanted to operate within the geographical area of the Park 25 /00 L&I - BILL 2 Service, Independence Mall and so forth. (Witness comes forward.)
Sir, are you from the Department of Licenses and Inspections?
Would you state your name. I know you, but get on the record here.
Yes. I'm Otis Haigler, Jr., Legislative Regulatory Affairs Manager for the Department of Licenses and Inspections. To answer your question, the Department of Licenses and Inspections currently does not issue the licenses related to animals. Those duties were transferred to the Health Department by virtue of a memorandum of understanding between the Department of Licenses and Inspections and the Health Department. This memorandum was issued in 1997 at the direction of the Managing Director's Office. The Department of Health, they have specialized services and units to monitor animals, and that's why the licensing and enforcement functions were transferred to the Department of /00 L&I - BILL 2 Health.
I apologize, my mistake, I meant the Health Department. So -- but there's still two licenses that would be necessary to operate within the area of Independence Hall and the Park Service area.
Well, I couldn't speak for Independence Hall National Park Service staff because I'm not aware of all their regulations. But as far as the City licenses go, there are only two companies that right now are licensed.
So it may be two and at most three, although one company's out of business temporarily. And the reason I raise this question is, I think back in September or October of 1998, I had received a copy of a letter that had been sent by the Interior Department to all -- to the five companies that were doing business, advising them that as of October 31, 1999, the license to be able to operate within the Parks Service area was -- would expire, and they needed to be renewed. And to the best of your knowledge, maybe one, if not two, of those companies opted to renew 27 /00 L&I - BILL 2 their licenses. So in effect, there are companies out there -- one, two or three, I'm not sure -- that are actually operating without a license in the Park Service area. And I guess my next question is, what can we do about that? Can we do anything, or is that solely the responsibility of the Interior Department or the Park Service?
Well, sir, I can answer that for you partially. The Independence Park enforcement rangers, which are different than the guide rangers, have a jurisdictional boundary that they can enforce up to but not over. And part of my concern is that -- it's my belief that to avoid paying the National Park Service, the other carriage companies are parking nearby, in illegal spaces, which is something that when we set up -- if Bill 217 passes and we establish a points system whereby carriage companies are held responsible for their violations, that the police will be able to cite them for moving across the street, for example, to avoid having to pay that fee.
Thank you. And 28 /00 L&I - BILL 2 the reason I'm asking you these questions is, I'm much more familiar, obviously, with the issues than my colleagues up here at the table are, and I want to get it on the record. And we're trying to, you know, create a foundation here so they get a better understanding of what we're attempting to do. Because as a result of these companies that are non-licensed in that Park Service area, those are actually causing hardship for the two companies that are acting responsible and are properly licensed. Because when I go out to Fifth Street and start complaining as to why they're parking in bus zones, why they're parking along Chestnut Street, which they're prohibited from parking, even the good guys -- if I may reefer to them as "the good guys" -- have no place to park or stage along Fifth Street because the non-licensed guys are either using up their spots or some spots nearby. So, again, I'm trying to get this out 'cause I know my colleagues, it's probably all foreign to them what we're talking about, and I appreciate you responding the way you are. 29 /00 L&I - BILL 2
And, Councilman, if I could just add one more problem related to what you just mentioned. When the carriages are on the Park property, the rangers make sure those streets are kept clean. The other companies that have moved off onto the city streets now, there's no 8 one there, except the limited City resources, to make sure they keep the streets clean. So it's not going to be very long before the complaints start to mount, especially with the warmer weather.
And also, when the city created staging areas, it was done with a couple of reasons in mind. One was, obviously, we had to have a designated place for people to go if they chose to get on a carriage; and the other one was an issue of public safety. So that carriages are just not stopping anywhere in the middle of a block, close to an where it actually could put the public and the horses in harm's way. So that's the reason for staging areas and why we are hopefully going to be able to enforce that much better going forward. And we created a point system so that 30 /00 L&I - BILL 2 when the operator of a carriage is cited, the owner of the company will be assessed a certain amount of points, similar to what we do to a vehicle operator when he or she is cited for going through a red light or a stop sign; and if in fact they're found guilty, there's a certain number of points that are assessed against your license. Ultimately, it could lead to a suspension or a revocation of your driving privileges. So we're attempting here to have some better regulations and to put some more teeth into it so that the owners of the companies instruct their operators to be more aware of what the regulations are and have some, I guess, heavier hand in enforcing it by the possibility that you can actually be out of business if you don't advise, instruct, and educate your drivers or operators to be more in line with what the regulations are or pay attention to the laws of the road, basically.
Any other members of the committee have questions for these witnesses?
No, but I would 31 /00 L&I - BILL 2 appreciate it if you gentlemen can hang around a little bit longer; I think there may be some more questions for you. Thank you.
Sergeant Ed Margerum from the Center City District, and Mr. Hendricks from the Pennsylvania SPCA. (Witnesses come forward.)
State your name for the record, Sergeant. SGT. MARGERUM: Sergeant Ed Margerum, from the Center City District.
We usually let people with guns testify first. So, Sergeant, go ahead. (Laughter.) SGT. MARGERUM: With my experience in Center City, we've had a couple instances over the last year mainly because of all the construction downtown, especially down around Independence 32 /00 L&I - BILL 2 Mall. I believe it was early fall last year, when they were digging up the street right around the Hall, one of the carriages, when they let loose with the jackhammers on the street, bolted, flipped over the horse and the carriage, injuring the carriage driver. Now the only reason that pedestrians weren't injured, number one, was because it was early fall and there weren't as many visitors to the Hall, but they have the wooden partitions, I guess you call them, right at the curbline, which kept the carriage from going into the sidewalk area, which was very beneficial in that area. At Christmas time, they seem to make up their own rules and decide to go wherever they want. They will go all the way up to the 1300 block of Market Street, which causes an extremely hazardous condition because they refuse to go around the Hall with the flow of traffic, and they make a U-turn in the 1300 block of Market Street, causing the traffic going westbound to go around the Hall to stop and the traffic eastbound, while they make their turn and negotiate their turn to get into the cutout area off of the sidewalk. 33 /00 L&I - BILL 2
Can I ask you a question real quick? As a law enforcement official, do you have any authority over them to give them a traffic ticket? SGT. MARGERUM: Well, I'd like to know that myself.
Could you just try it and see if -- SGT. MARGERUM: Oh, yeah, we try.
And see if anybody notices? SGT. MARGERUM: Because I made a couple phone calls and I found out that they weren't permitted to go over there because all of these carriage drivers said they had permits, but nobody could produce anything for me.
And if they're acting recklessly -- SGT. MARGERUM: Absolutely, absolutely.
As a law enforcement official, you could -- SGT. MARGERUM: And they had one carriage operator that, after he gave the officer a hard time -- it wasn't myself, but another 34 /00 L&I - BILL 2 sergeant in the Center City District was called to the scene, and we were going to lock him up for disorderly conduct. That's how irate he became and how abusive he became.
Well, you have our permission to arrest any horse drivers that you want. SGT. MARGERUM: I agree.
You'll be famous. SGT. MARGERUM: Also, on Walnut Street, when you have -- most of the day, you have two lanes of traffic. When you have one carriage in one lane, it causes a rubber neck effect, with the traffic behind that carriage trying to get out over to the other lane and causing accidents while trying to get by.
Thanks. Any questions from the members for this witness? (No questions.)
Thank you for the 35 /00 L&I - BILL 2 opportunity to testify. As you may recall, in the past, I've testified that we would prefer that this temperature maximum actually be a heat index, which would include the humidity factor. However, in this existing amendment, or the one that's proposed, I will accede to the apparent desire of City Council that we keep it simple and use a straight temperature standard. I would rather see it be 89, but under most conditions, I think that 90 is an acceptable humane standard as the maximum working temperature for horses. On the other hand, the simplicity factor seems to have been forgotten when you established a standard at the bottom end of the scale, where you're using -- or at least proposing to use -- a wind chill factor. Wind chill, as you know, uses the actual wind at the moment to register what the wind chill factor is, and that's very capricious; that can change from second to second. And it would be really impossible to ever go to court with that kind of standard. I propose that you maintain a straight temperature standard, as you have at the upper end 36 /00 L&I - BILL 2 of the scale, and use 32 degrees, a straight temperature of 32 degrees, as the bottom working temperature. In other words, anything below 32, then the horses would have to leave work and head home. One other thing that is not addressed directly in the bill, but which I think should be brought up, is that the temperature standard that should be used, I believe, should be the official U.S. Weather Service airport temperature, since that is the one used by all radio and television stations, and anyone who tunes in to any station in Philadelphia will know what that temperature reading is at the moment. It's also a recorded temperature and it is legally unassailable. It can't be attacked in court as an instrument that might be held by a law enforcement officer could be because of its calibration and other factors. So while this isn't in the proposed amendment, I would suggest that it might be actually put in so that it could ensure that the Health Department does use that standard and not some local standard. This is an ordinance that applies 37 /00 L&I - BILL 2 throughout the City of Philadelphia, and I suggest that this standard be uniformly applied throughout the City and not -- and we should not rely on a clock, or I should say, a temperature reading off the KYW building, as was once proposed. That has too many variabilities. It even varies from the temperature that they put out on the air. So it's very confusing when the public calls up and says, I heard it this hot, and we go down to the city -- to the carriage area, we find that the temperature reading on the building is lower. So if we use a uniform temperature at the airport, it will solve all of those problems. And that's basically the only aspect of the amendments that I have any concerns with. I think it is well past time that City Council act on this. We've been here before and it's been going on many years now that amendments have been put up and they die in committee. And I'm hoping that this will finally be the year that something is really done to help these working horses throughout Philadelphia. Thank you very much.
Thank you. 38 /00 L&I - BILL 2 Any questions for this witness? Councilman DiCicco?
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you, Mr. Hendricks, for your testimony. We had discussed the very issue about where do we get temperature from because we understand there are different sections of the City, and we will have that in there, that it should come from the National Weather Service.
At the airport. And I will offer that as an amendment to the bill.
Temperature, high end. I get all kinds of different recommendations, suggestions, opinions -- even when speaking to veterinarians. One veterinarian, as recently as Sunday, said, Well, you know, 94 degrees isn't really all that bad. Horses are used to working, they've been doing things for mankind since the beginning of mankind. And in his opinion, if the horses are given adequate fresh water and I believe shodding -- is that the 39 /00 L&I - BILL 2 correct word?
Shoeing or shodding, whatever the term is, if that is done and they're cared for properly, in his opinion, 94 degrees is -- you know, it's not the best but it's not all that bad. And in fact, when I met him on Sunday, he and two of his friends were out horseback riding, and as we all know, Sunday was a very hot and humid day. And on my return from Bucks County, I took one of the back ways home, and lots of people were out riding horses in Fairmount Park, coming through East River Drive. There were a number of people who were out and the temperature, I think, was probably in the 94-95 degree range, and it was a very humid day. And these are people who I have a lot of respect for, these are people who obviously enjoy horseback riding and are horse enthusiasts, if I can use that term. 40 /00 L&I - BILL 2 In recent years, have you had -- has the SPCA had any incidences of horses dying from heat exhaustion or anything like that? And what are --
No, but I hope you're not going to wait till one dies before you do something about it. (Applause.)
No. And not to be sarcastic, I think we are doing something about it. And, again, as I said in my opening statement, whatever I propose as an amendment -- and, obviously, it will be for this committee to decide -- will probably not make everybody happy because even those who think that it still should be 89, and I proposed in one of my bills 92, and then a subsequent bill at 90, and they're still not very happy with that. But that being said, there are some things in here I think that we are going to act responsible as a Council and do some things and make some changes to the existing legislation and regulations that will tighten up what goes on out there. 41 /00 L&I - BILL 2 And, again, I think -- what I've gotten from most people way back two years ago when we had a public hearing on this very bill is that care of the animal, the stable conditions, the number of hours they're in harness, fresh water supply, the maintenance of the horse, the shodding or whatever, are paramount to mostly everything else. And if you've got a horse out in 94 degrees, naturally you're not going to run that horse at a full pace, but if you're running it -- riding a horse and you're sitting on the horse's back, which most people do when they ride a horse, even at 94 degrees, it's not the best condition but it is something that is not life-threatening. Now, I'm sure that we can have people who will disagree with that. I mean, that is obvious. As we will have people who will disagree that 90 is still too high. And I don't know what that magic number is, and I respect your opinion, as I do everyone else's. I remember two years ago when we had a hearing, I asked about the low temperature, and there was a woman who was here -- I believe she 42 /00 L&I - BILL 2 was a veterinarian from somewhere up in Vermont or somewhere, and I asked her a question. I said, you know, when it's 60 degrees out there, Frank DiCicco, I'm cold. I have friends of mine who walk around with sleeveless T-shirts when it's 40 degrees. And horses have the same kind of characteristics. The veterinarian I spoke to on Sunday, when I asked him about the cold temperature, he said, Well, I don't know if I'd put a blanket on most horses, he said, because, you know, in the winter, when their fur gets to be kind of fluffy, the fluffiness of the coat acts as an insulation. Should you put a blanket on them and they begin to sweat, the hair, the fur or the coat begins to flatten out, and the horse loses its natural insulation to cold. So, you know, it's this constant back and forth. One would think that when the temperature reads 32 or below or what have you, that putting a blanket on anybody or any animal would be the more appropriate way, and he had suggested that he wouldn't do that.
I agree that the 43 /00 L&I - BILL 2 healthy horse is the ultimate. Unfortunately, it's difficult when you look at a horse to know what health it's in. So I think you have to have some rules and regulations that apply generally. And I think that you have to look at this temperature that we're looking at as also a gauge of the humaneness of Philadelphia, not just what is the breaking point of the typical working horse. And I think that's something you have to keep in mind.
And I am keeping that in mind. Just let me finish. And I agree, I agree. But I also look -- the other morning coming in, Monday morning, coming to work, I saw a guy out there with a jackhammer, 94 degrees. I left my office, went to Walnut Street, I forget what I went there for now, but he was still jackhammering away at 2:30 in the afternoon. And I'm sure he'd rather not be out there but, you know, I don't know what the magic number is, I just don't know, but I do appreciate and respect your opinion.
Well, it is an 44 /00 L&I - BILL 2 arbitrary number, but that's what City Council has to do.
Yeah, I know, and we're going to do something, but --
I just wanted to follow up and I don't know if you're the right guy. I wanted to ask this -- I just wanted to just jump in there and ask a quick question. Councilman DiCicco is making an analogy between a horse that's ridden versus a driving horse. Are you the right guy to ask if there's a difference? Do we separate a horse that's being ridden versus one that's being driven?
Well, no, just -- we're talking about horse -- the Councilman said he saw a horse being ridden up in Bucks County, he saw horses being ridden along the Kelly Drive. 45 /00 L&I - BILL 2 We're talking two different types of horses: we're talking a horse that is a driving horse versus a horse that's a horse for horseback riding. Are they two different?
In terms of calories expended, I don't think that anybody's going to say that a horse that is carrying a 150-pound person, just, you know, doing normal walking, not galloping -- he could be walking or cantering -- for maybe an hour at the most is not going to put out a whole lot of calories relative to a horse, even though it might even be a slightly bigger horse, that's pulling a carriage that might itself weigh a half a ton, then have six people in it weighing another half a ton. So you've got at least a ton that you're pulling. And if those axles aren't greased properly, if there are problems with any kind of mechanics of the vehicle, it adds more work to it. So I think you have to look at the load that he's carrying, the wagon that's being used, and then figure out which is the worst. But I would say, in general, carrying one person on your back is a lot easier than dragging a carriage load 46 /00 L&I - BILL 2 behind you, especially on pavement.
Okay. Any other questions for this witness? (No further questions.)
Thank you. Bill Hawkins and Valerie Phillips. (witnesses come forward.)
I'm Valerie Phillips. I'm Chairperson of the Mayor's Animal Advisory Committee.
And you're the lady with the place in Bucks County that DiCicco went to and didn't bring us?
Would you pull that microphone a little closer, Valerie, please. 47 /00 L&I - BILL 2
We would be delighted. Yes, you may. And I do -- I have a little different spin. Mine is very short. What I do want to say is, one, it was delightful to have Councilman DiCicco up. The veterinarian that he spoke to happens to raise horses in the Olympics. So you're talk about a totally different type of horse than what is in the City of Philadelphia. And once I told him what this was all about, the vet, when he, and it was actually my husband who went riding with him. He said, "I would shoot anyone that does not keep horses in decent conditions." So I just wanted to bring that up for the record. I think that if he had seen some of the stables which Mr. Hawkins and I have seen in this city, he would not have made 48 /00 L&I - BILL 2 that comment to you. And so I just want to say, as Chairperson of the Animal Advisory Committee, speaking for the committee, we strongly urge passing humane conditions for these horses. And I want to take this from a humane perspective, and let me just read my -- I was not prepared to speak, so let me just tell you what we think. It's the humane perception which must be addressed here as well. Concerned citizens and visitors do not like to witness working in sweltering heat, as can be seen by the numerous complaints that have been made to the Department of Health Department, the Pennsylvania Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals, and our committee. And one of the goals of our committee has been to make Philadelphia an example of a City which attempts to address and improve the conditions of its animals. I think that bodes well, not only for the City, but also for its citizens, and it might also set an example for some of the citizens. And so this type of legislation, which 49 /00 L&I - BILL 2 ultimately results from your hearing, will be a major factor in whether we achieve that goal as a city.
You can find our -- I'm not being facetious here. If any of you would like to come up, you can find directions on our Web site, which is Honey Hollow Farm dot.com.
Since you offered, if Councilman Clarke and I come up and we drive our motorcycles, will that scare the horses?
The pig? I'm always nervous when I pass the horses. Mr. Hawkins?
My name is William Hawkins. I'm a consultant to the Mayor's Animal 50 /00 L&I - BILL 2 Advisory Committee on Carriage Horses in this particular instance. And I'd like to echo the same sentiment that Valerie Phillips mentioned, that a lot of the issues that we're dealing with today are particularly of the humane nature. And for years, Philadelphia has had weak regulations and poor enforcement when it comes to the horse carriage trade. We've already begun to improve enforcement, but now City Council has an opportunity to ensure that we have the right regulations in place. Bill 217 will help do that. We owe it to the horses, we owe it to the residents and the tourists, and we owe it to the City of Philadelphia. If we compromise on this legislation, we are sending a message to the carriage industry that they are in the driver's seat. The ordinance, as written, is practical legislation that deals with long overdue business and humane standards for the horse carriage trade. It includes much-needed decent, humane working 51 /00 L&I - BILL 2 conditions for Philadelphia's carriage horses. The vast majority of cities in the United States have already adopted similar standards, or standards that are significantly more restrictive. Even New York City -- not known for its compassion for humans, let alone animals -- has a shorter workday for their horses and a much lower temperature, at 90 degrees. And currently, they are considering lowering it to 89. I'm here today not only as a representative of the Mayor's Animal Advisory Committee, but also the Society Hill Civic Association and as a resident of that community and also as someone who has lived in Philadelphia for 28 years and loves this city. What I do not like is the way the City treats our carriage horses, and it's time we did what is right. I and others advocating these changes are not here to do away with the horse carriages, as the carriage companies would have you believe. We do not want to put them out of business, we do not want to restrict entrepreneurship. As a small-business owner myself, I am very sensitive to that concern. 52 /00 L&I - BILL 2 We are here to ask for your support for of meaningful changes to the rules, such as you see in the ordinance. If the carriage companies within Philadelphia were to move to another city, they would have to contend immediately with shorter business hours, dramatically reduced work hours for the horses and an even lower temperature than 90 degrees. S. cities have banned the carriage trade altogether rather than contend with the problems that far outweigh the benefits. These changes are the absolute minimum we should be implementing. In meetings just over a year ago with the 76 Carriage Company, the Mayor's Animal Advisory Committee and the Health Department, even the veterinarian for the 76 Carriage Company, Dr. Schilling, agreed with another equine expert who was on a conference call with us and supported an 89-degree temperature threshold, as well as the 9 hours in harness rule. I know that Councilman DiCicco has received many calls, letters, and faxes over the past few years from City residents who have 53 /00 L&I - BILL 2 requested major improvements to the horses' working conditions, as well as changes that truly affect waste management, carriage routes, and tourist safety issues. As vice president of the Society Hill Civil Association, I frequently receive calls from residents that I passed along to the various City departments, including the Philadelphia Police Department. There are numerous accounts of accidents and horses getting spooked by loud noises. And as you heard earlier, there was an accident last year which resulted in three tourists being treated at Jefferson Hospital. I and others have witnessed many near-misses of slow-moving carriages turning into lanes of fast-moving traffic. The list goes on and on.
If Philadelphia is serious about tourism -- and we've heard today that the tourist industry is probably in support of the carriage companies, and that's fine, we're not here to do away with the carriage industry, we've said that. But it's time that we become a lot more responsible with how we're treating the industry. And as vehicular transportation in our community 54 /00 L&I - BILL 2 becomes more difficult each year, the likelihood of a very serious accident involving tourists as well as residents increases. There has been a slight increase in accidents each year. While some people enjoy carriage rides, the vast majority of tourists quite frankly do not, you'd be surprised. " Although some City tourism brochures show the good side of the carriage trade, a darker side has been exposed. Two stables were shut down due to deplorable conditions, as you heard, recently. And, yesterday, criminal charges were filed against two people associated with one of the carriage companies. That's a first; it probably won't be the last. If we don't clean up our own act in Philadelphia, then we will get a reputation for being a less-than-humane city, and we don't want that. And this is the city, which, by the way, established one of the first humane societies in the entire country. 55 /00 L&I - BILL 2 The carriage companies have long ignored the approved carriage routes, blocking traffic on Market Street -- we've heard that -- and others, especially in the holiday season. And they continually go down off-limit side streets, and this is every carriage company -- no carriage company is exempt. Approved carriage routes must also apply to the weekends. If not, then we have no 11 real controls. The apparent ability for the carriages to go anywhere on the weekend is among the most ridiculous of the current regulations. Now they're picking up residents at their homes on the weekend and taking them to restaurants, a taxi service, which is not their intention. Philadelphia has among the most -- the worst working conditions in the country for carriage horses, one of the highest temperature thresholds at 94, no low temperature, and the longest number of hours worked -- 10 hours. That is why we very much support 89-degree high temperature threshold, because, as you've heard, when it's combined with the street level, that's 120 to 150, which is very, very different. Add to 56 /00 L&I - BILL 2 that the SEPTA buses and car fumes belching out in front of the horses, in the face of the horses, and you have very bad working conditions. And I must disagree with the recommendation that the airport temperature be used; or if it is considered, that we give additional consideration to it. The reason being, if you've listened to the airport temperature and you've checked against the temperature in Center City, there's often a 3- to 5-degree difference. It's cooler in the airport, at the airport. )
For about an hour or so. So what you would be doing is exposing the horses to a higher temperature than they should be. The way to measure temperature, especially for horses who are operating on their hooves on the street, is to take it at the street temperature where they're doing their business.
Mr. Hawkins, let me ask you -- let me stop you there. Did you just say that the temperature at the airport is cooler? I know you said that, but did you say it's cooler for an hour or so? 57 /00 L&I - BILL 2
There's a difference of about an hour. It seems that -- if it's, for instance, 90 at the airport, it's probably going to be 92, 93, 94 in Center City for some time.
It's not a theory. It's having heard the weather reports for a number of years. In fact, that's why I've always been concerned about the airport being used as the measurement. I know it's easy, I know it's simple, but that is not where the horses conduct their business.
And would you happen to know where they get the temperature for the Center City reading?
The Center City reading -- KYW Radio has a temperature gauge in their building. It's not the one that you see on the front of the building; it's somewhere else on the building.
It's probably on the low side. Isn't that difference also on the low side?
On the bottom of the temperature scales, isn't there also a difference from the airport?
It's interesting, Councilman Clarke. I haven't noticed that as much as I have the high temperature.
Let me just cut you short just a more minute. While we're getting into it, I'm just amazed at all these advisory councils that we have. Explain to me this Mayor's Advisory Council and how one gets on that and what expertise. And I don't know you, I met you when you came to my office and it was a very nice discussion, but you're testifying like an expert on temperatures and you're testifying to know a lot about horses and the carriage industry. What do you got to do to be on that; do you have to be an expert on temperatures, on horses, or just know the Mayor? Which one is it? 59 /00 L&I - BILL 2
I'll ask the president of the committee to answer that question.
Well, we know why you're there. You let DiCicco come to your farm. That's --
And that is our main function. I think most people there -- it was at a certain time a criterion who was on this committee.
Is there any -- do you just have to be an animal-lover to be on it?
Do you have to be -- is there any veterinarians on it? 60 /00 L&I - BILL 2
Yes, there is a veterinarian. Everybody on the committee, except for me, actually has a particular, you know, bent with animals.
He is not on the board, but there was someone from the SPCA, and I am a board member of the Pennsylvania SPCA.
Oh, okay. The one up in my district on Erie Avenue that doesn't return my calls, that one?
About dogs barking all night, that same one? Now I know. Matter of fact, when they bark and the people call my house, I could have 'em call your farm in Bucks County?
Well, other than 61 /00 L&I - BILL 2 that, we want 'em, but --
There are at this 7 point, and each one has some kind of expertise. 8
So one person would be a veterinarian, someone else would have a farm like yourself?
No, no, it nothing to do with having a farm; it has to do actually with --
What credentials? I mean, could I be on it? I'm a City Councilman, and I was an electrician before this.
Very good. And let me question Councilman Ortiz. What is your expertise to be on that? You rode horses when you were young, in New York?
All right. He bet? I think he placed some bets on the horses somewhere along the line.
Let me read to you. It says -- this is the Animal Advisory Committee: Two members shall be appointed as representatives of community organizations. Two members shall be appointed as representatives of animal humane societies and animal shelters. One member shall be appointed as a representative of private veterinarians or veterinary hospital. Two members shall be appointed as representative of stables, kennels, or other businesses primarily concerned with animals. One member shall be appointed as a 63 /00 L&I - BILL 2 representative of the Department of Licenses and Inspections. Two members shall be appointed as representatives of animal clubs or organizations, which we also have. And then it talks about the responsibilities, if you want me to continue to read.
No, no, I get the point, but this has been -- let me just tell you as an outsider, and please don't be offended. You know, when I see these horses when I'm driving down to DiCicco's house, and either I can't get around them, and I told that when the people came in. I said I don't really have a problem and I understand the purpose here, and hopefully some of my colleagues feel the same way. We understand and we understand what's trying to happen, but we don't know a whole lot about this. I'm just shocked that there's an advisory council for this.
That there's a board, an advisory committee. I mean, I'm not 64 /00 L&I - BILL 2 shocked glad to know that. Is the person -- Otis is here from L&I; is he on this board?
Not it's someone else, by the name of Robert Pili who's on there, from L&I.
I know Robert Pili. But I've been reading a lot in the -- well, I've seen a lot on the news about this and it seems that there's been a lot of media attention being brought to this. At this point, there's somebody that got convicted yesterday, you testified -- for being cruel to animals, was it?
My point is, with all this media attention and the good Councilman doing this, aren't most of the -- for, say, lack of better words, the bad actor's out of this business? Or are they hanging around looking to 65 /00 L&I - BILL 2 shoot back, which his bill may help work it out? My concern here is there's somebody -- there has to be somebody here in -- the Health Department testified that there's one good guy, another almost as good guy, and somebody else just hanging in there. So out of the five people, the two scumbags are gone, correct?
Well, we don't know that. We would like to think so but we're not sure about that. And by the way, Councilman, we're not --
You got to be a scumbag to be mean to a horse, really.
We're not here really to separate the good from the bad. This is legislation that applies to any carriage company that would even want to open for business down the road, and we would like the bad companies to be totally out of business. And Mr. Slocum does have a very good operation, but it's not about Mr. Slocum and it's not about any of the carriage companies.
And which one 66 /00 L&I - BILL 2 would Slocum -- Slocum's the good guy? You say "good guy," 'cause I'm not sure who that is yet. We'll get to that.
I've never called him "a good guy," but he's got the best-looking horses and the best stables, and he knows that.
So he's probably a pretty intelligent businessman and he figures if he get he keeps the horses -- when he gets up here, I see his name -- if the horses are healthy and he takes care of 'em, we don't chase him around, you don't chase him around, and he gets to stay in business in the City of Philadelphia?
And I'll bet you he's the guy that's -- and I don't know this, but I'll bet you he's the guy that the Parks Service -- he has the -- whatever the license from the Park Service, am I correct in assuming that?
I think that's correct, yes. However, his carriages, too, go off limit -- again, off routes and do all the things that the other carriages do.
Are any of the bad 67 /00 L&I - BILL 2 actors or scumbags here today? Stand up, please. (Laughter.)
So the only one here is the good guy? Which one's the good guy? Stand up. (Mr. Slocum stands up.)
Oh, the guy with the nicest suit, okay, I get it. I made you stand up. I'm not trying to make light of this, but we don't do this every day and we're trying to -- with the wisdom of Solomon, we have to bring all this information in and figure out exactly what's going on. And for lack of better words, you really care about this issue.
I care about some issues -- I have to care about all of the issues and all these other Councilpeople. And now that I know that Councilman Ortiz expert in this, we will 68 /00 L&I - BILL 2 be acquiesced in some of this to him.
I have this picture in my mind of Angel Ortiz on a horse with a cowboy hat that I can't get out of my head -- and it wouldn't be a carriage horse, right?
Okay, okay, but that's where we are, correct? I mean, we have some guys that are trying to do a good job and we're fighting about degrees, two degrees, where the temperature's going to be. I got a feeling Frank's not going to make any -- Councilman DiCicco's not going to make everybody happy here today, as he said at the beginning.
But at the end of the day, we're not talking about the good guys or the good people: it's the animals. And I think that gets lost in the translation along --
No, no, I think we understand that. I mean, not myself and my God knows how I feel about specific things -- in this 69 /00 L&I - BILL 2 case, horses. You're talking a little about New York City.
They had a problem in New York City and you said they lowered the temperature? Did you say that?
They actually don't have good stables but they have very good regulations, and we've got the reverse here: we're cleaning up the stables now but we have lousy regulations.
So as a legislator, I would think regulations would make the stables better. Why do you think --
That doesn't consider the horses' care when they're out on the street in high temperatures or low temperatures or the 70 /00 L&I - BILL 2 number of hours worked.
You were telling me about temperature a couple minutes ago, and in New York, the temperature's lower, 90 to 89 degrees?
They have stables which aren't meeting requirements, and they're about to clean theirs up, too.
So what someone else testified, and maybe the Councilman said, if you take care of 'em and you do everything, they may possibly be able to be out there a better taken care of horse, maybe they'll be out there in a little higher temperature than a horse that is not taken care of.
Well, once again -- and I'd like to address that specifically because you 71 /00 L&I - BILL 2 speak to any vet, as you've heard today, and they will tell you that a well maintained, well cared for, well fed horse can be out in pretty high temperatures, and as an ex-marathon runner, I used to run in very high temperatures for very long distances, but I chose to do that. When a horse is out there, they don't have that choice. And as far as we're concerned, the temperature for a horse that is out for an hour at -- if it's 94 degrees and a horse is being worked for just an hour and it's being ridden, that's a big difference than being out pulling a heavy load for four hours. That's the big difference here.
Let me ask you this. What I'm getting here is a feeling that -- is there any room to compromise at all between the carriage companies and the Advisory Board? Or is it our way or no way. I mean, save us a lot of problems 'cause we're going to do what we want anyway, to be honest with you. We don't know anything about horses, we're going to take in -- Angel does, but we're going to take in what you give us today and digest it and make some kind of decision and get it out of this committee with a 72 /00 L&I - BILL 2 favorable or a non-favorable recommendation, maybe with some amendments. But if I said to you now, Look, off the record, but it's on the record because she's taking it so be careful what you say, but if we could go over there in the back room and -- we wouldn't smoke cigars or anything 'cause we don't did that anymore but --
Is there a deal, can we do something here? Is there a compromise, not deal 'cause that never sounds -- compromise, or is it "take it or leave it"?
No, we'd -- I think we'd like to talk about it further, but we'd like to see what's on the table.
And we're practical people. At the end of the day, we want to get a better deal for the horses than they've got right now.
But we also to want it to go, you know, way out of whack and have the same 73 /00 L&I - BILL 2 problem twelve months from now.
That's understandable. I appreciate your candor and your honesty. Like, again, this isn't in my expertise, and I'm also trying to, you know, feel for the horses, but I'm also trying to feel a little bit for the one good guy or the guy in the nice suit there --
-- who stood up because he does create some revenue for here that pays my salary and some of the police people and some of the firemen and the guys that clean up the horse manure.
Well, unfortunately, the horses are also costing the taxpayers money 'cause we're footing the bill right now.
Probably. Well, if we get rid of them bad actors, that won't happen. Any other questions for these witnesses? Councilman Rizzo? 74 /00 L&I - BILL 2
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The -- I had a conversation with Councilman DiCicco and we discussed the fact that in Central Park in New York, where many of the carriage operators --
Fifth Avenue. That that they are also protected by vegetation, by trees and --
I would assume that 90 degrees in the sun is a lot different than 90 degrees in the shade.
Big difference. I'm not an expert on temperature, regardless of Mr. Mariano's contention, but I would like to say that there is a significant difference -- any human knows that, too.
So whatever temperature we come up with, if a horse is standing or traveling on one of the streets that 75 /00 L&I - BILL 2 are not protected by buildings, not protected by a shade tree -- I understand the staging area is, where the horses are staged, that there are trees that give them some --
Some partial protection. The staging area has yet to be defined but the current staging area doesn't have as many trees as the previous, on Sixth Street.
But my point being that in many cases, on a very hot, clear summer day, these horses are in direct sunlight for most of their day out on their beat.
Probably about two-thirds to three-quarters of the time, yes.
So, again, that temperature is even beyond the threshold of what we're trying to establish here. Who knows what the temperature of a horse standing at an intersection at Fifth and whatever street would be subjected to. So you have to take that into consideration, that some horses that work in some cities aren't exposed to the same environmental conditions that the horses in this city are.
Sure, absolutely, because 76 /00 L&I - BILL 2 the surface on the streets in Central Park are a little different than the tar and macadam that we have in parts of Philadelphia, where you have you have that radiant heat; you have a heat that is really, really high.
I just wanted to make that point, about the horses being out there in the sunlight.
I'm sorry, excuse me. Before I move on, one of my colleagues, Councilwoman Blondell Reynolds Brown, wanted to say something.
Good afternoon. History is really important, and I've just learned from my colleague here that the discussion dialogue from the debate around this issue has been going on for more now than 21 months. So given what I've read in the paper, 22 what I've tried to follow in the paper and my 23 limited understanding, I do need to hear the 24 answer to Chairman Mariano's question. Is there any room for compromise? Has either side sat down 77 /00 L&I - BILL 2 face to face with the opposite opinion to examine, talk through the possibility of a compromise?
In fact, there was a meeting that -- it was a subcommittee that Councilman DiCicco asked to be put together, which included the Mayor's Animal Advisory Committee, which included myself and Chairperson Phillips, together with the Department of Health and also the 76 Carriage Company representatives, and we actually did agree on the 9 hours in harness and a couple of other issues, close to the low- temperature issue. The only issue that we were in contention over was the high-temperature issue.
But is there room for compromise? If we can get a lot of things that will benefit the horses, then we would have to seriously consider that.
Seriously have to consider what? You say "that," what's "that"?
Whatever the recommendations might be. For instance, 94 is too high, 93 is too high, 92 is still too high, but anything under that would be worthy of 78 /00 L&I - BILL 2 consideration.
Just for the Councilwoman's -- the first bill, I think I introduced a bill back in '97 or '98 was the first bill?
And in that bill, I had recommended a temperature of 92.
And then in subsequent, 90. So we've been moving around where. It winds up today, I don't know yet, but we all agree that it should be lower than 94. I think that's the one thing I can say with certainty at this point. Somewhere between the 90 and 94 or 93 is where I think we're going to wind up with today. I mean, I'm not prejudging what the committee will do. 79 /00 L&I - BILL 2 But so that you understand, there was movement, there was some compromise, although it may not have been very well received by most people, but we did move from the 94 to 92, and now we're talking at 90. So we have been making some progress, I believe.
What I'd like to add to that, if I could, just very briefly is that every other major city, except one, is 90 degrees or less. I think there may be two other cities: one is 94-95, one is 92, and all the others are 85 to 89, maybe 90. And that's why we don't want to be on the bad end of that scale. Thank you for your time.
Mr. Bush Bell? Any other questions for these witnesses? (No further questions.)
Seeing done, Mr. Bush Bell and Mr. Washington. (Witnesses come forward.)
Good afternoon. My name is Bush Bell, and I'm the General Manager at the Sheraton Society Hill, at Second and Dock Streets. Thank you all very much for allowing me 80 /00 L&I - BILL 2 to appear today. I'm also speaking on behalf of the Greater Philadelphia Hotel Association, whose members include the general managers from every major hotel in Philadelphia and in the region. My hotel attracts a mix of business travelers and conventioneers and tourists, and we welcome and host over 100 tours that come to our hotel throughout the year, and these tours typically start in New York or Washington, and then spend one night in Philadelphia as they move on to rest of their nights on their tour. And many hotels if Philadelphia, or course, tour groups. In my opinion, the horse and carriage rides are a valuable and very important amenity that are enjoyed by many of our visitors to our hotel as well as to the City. And in our case, tour groups contract with the 76 Carriage Company and provide regular carriage tours to our guests, departing from our hotel in Society Hill. Other guests and travelers that stay with us look forward to these rides as well, and they ask our concierge to make arrangements for the carriages to come and pick them up at the hotel, or in many 81 /00 L&I - BILL 2 cases, they go up to the staging area at Independence Mall. While we at the Sheraton Society Hill and the Greater Philadelphia Hotel Association are not blind to the problems that exist in the carriage industry, we do see that some horses do appear unhealthy and that we know that traffic does have to move around the carriages. However, the hotel industry believes that the City should work with the carriage industry to improve the treatment of their horses rather than the limits that are proposed under the current amendment. If a horses are sick and poorly treated, then, by all means, they should be taken off the streets and the operators need to be dealt with, but limiting the carriages -- they said also say limit the carriages from busiest thoroughfares throughout the rush hours. And we need to find ways to deal with the smells that are created by horses. In our view, the bill currently before Council addresses these problems but it goes too far. By banning carriages for long periods during weekday mornings and afternoons, many of our 82 /00 L&I - BILL 2 guests will be unable to enjoy carriage rides, and it's inconvenient for customers to wait until 10 a.m. to take their morning rides or until late in the afternoon, after 7, to do so. And travelers will many times just skip the opportunity of taking carriage rides, which is -- as they are unable to fit it into their schedule. And as a result, they may spend less time in Philadelphia -- as we all know, we're trying to get more people to spend more time -- and they won't be able to enjoy the shops and restaurant and other find amenities that our city has to offer. It's also important that carriages continue to be available outside the historic area of Philadelphia. Weddings and other special events at hotels in the Rittenhouse area and beyond frequently request horse and carriages to take the bridal party, VIPs, and other guests to and from receptions. And these events are frequently in the evenings and on the weekends, but in many cases, they occur on weekdays as well. And we hope that the City will allow carriage companies to continue to provide these unique services. 83 /00 L&I - BILL 2 In summary, I feel that the carriage industry is an important amenity that the City has to offer, as there are many amenities that our city has. However, it's the combination of all of these amenities that make Philadelphia such a great tourist destination. That's the end of my statement and I'll be glad to take any questions that you may have.
I don't think that the legislation goes to elimination of the carriages and the carriage rides, but I would like you, if you can, to make clear to the panel what is it that you're for and what is it that you're against in terms of the legislation. And I imagine that you're for some type of regulation of the industry.
Oh, absolutely. I clearly believe as -- you know, I work in Center City and as I'm going to and from work, I'm behind carriages and I drive down (unintelligible) Street every day, and there are horses that are clearly not treated well, and those horses should be 84 /00 L&I - BILL 2 removed from service. And if the stables are unhealthy then, yes, there clearly needs to be stronger regulations to protect those animals because, unfortunately, there are some operators that don't have the animals' best interests in mind.
Do you believe that there are certain weather conditions under which the horses or anyone should not be outside working and plying a trade?
Well, I mean, that's kind of a loaded question. Of course, there are certain weather conditions that people shouldn't be involved in strenuous activities. What that level is, I don't have the expertise to make a comment on that, I'd prefer not to. I'll leave that up to the experts to make that recommendation.
But do you believe that some sort of regulation in terms of temperatures that would make it healthier for horses to be in much more humane conditions, that temperatures have to do with conditions that can hurt horses and their health and their condition?
Yes, I do believe that 85 /00 L&I - BILL 2 temperature plays an impact is it 94 or 92, 89? I'm not qualified to make a recommendation to that, and I shouldn't.
So if the panel here recommends legislation that says above 90 degrees, horses should not be out, you wouldn't have a problem with that.
Well, one concern I would have is the -- when the -- the impact that that would have on the overall availability of carriages. And I know that there are, you know, many days when the temperature will exceed 90 degrees, and there are still tourists in the historic park, there are still tourists in Old City that want to enjoy their time there, and the carriage rides currently are an important part of their experience in Philadelphia. You know, there would be many, many days that it would be over 90 degrees or within this window, and that would be my concern. People come to Philadelphia to enjoy their time, and the carriage ride is an important part of their stay.
I don't think anyone on the panel wants to outlaw them 'cause I enjoy 86 /00 L&I - BILL 2 carriage rides. I like to take the kids around Center City and Independence Park and so on. And when my nephews come from other parts of the country, I like to take them in. But there are certain conditions that have to be adhered to because we want the horses to be healthy. We don't want to be able, you know, either to exploit horses. There are not many days, really, during the year really that are really above 91 degrees. For example, I have a page here that in 1999, there were days during the year that were above 14 91 degrees and 18 days above 93 degrees and 11 15 days above 94 degrees. I think -- I think there 16 is a correlation, I believe, and I think the 17 medical and veterinarians will do that between 18 heat, humidity, and the ability of animals to be 19 able to perform. 20 And if we want to have a very viable 21 tourist trade, we should have at least the most 22 humane regulations possible. Don't do you believe 23 in that? 24
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I had a quick couple questions. I don't know if you can answer both of them. One of them -- I heard the testimony speak of the tourist industry, and you in particular spoke of that.
One, I'd like to get a sense of how many tourists, say, for instance, a week would request a carriage ride.
Well, in our hotel, we do over -- specific bus tour groups exceed 100 every year, and there's typically to 30 people that 17 would be in that tour group. 18
That specifically request carriage rides. As a matter of fact, it's their only scheduled event for our primary tour guide, which brings about 90 of the tours to our hotel. 88 /00 L&I - BILL 2 The only scheduled activity that they have in the City of Philadelphia is the carriage ride, at least from our hotel.
Okay. And the second question related to that is -- and, I don't know, maybe somebody who knows more about the industry can answer that. How much -- how dependent is their business on the tourism aspect of that particular carriage ride versus just a couple that's down the street or my or my colleague Councilman Ortiz from time to time?
Well, I don't want to mislead you. The tour business in the City of Philadelphia is far exceeded by the convention business travel obviously, yes. Tours in our hotel make up less than 5 percent of our total business. However, it's the leisure travelers that also stay at our hotel that make up a significantly larger part of our business that also enjoy the carriage rides. And many times, they may not even go on a carriage ride, but it creates the whole ambience of what historic Philadelphia is al about, and it's the cobblestone 89 /00 L&I - BILL 2 streets, it's the historical buildings. And they are just walking and enjoying the historic area of Philadelphia, they see horse and carriages go by, and it just creates that ambience that they're looking for. The historical significance of Philadelphia is anchored in place by that.
And if you -- I don't know if someone from the carriage ride business is going to testify later Mr. Chairman -- okay, I'll ask that question of them at that time. Thank you.
Any other questions for this witness? (No further questions.)
Hi. Good afternoon. To the Chairman and members of the committee, thank you for allowing me to --
Certainly. My name is Patricia Washington, and I'm the Vice President of Grants and Partnerships for the Greater Philadelphia Tourism Marketing Corporation. I'll 90 /00 L&I - BILL 2 move up a little bit so you can hear me. I bring you remarks on behalf of our president and CEO Meryl Levitz, who was unable to join us today due to another commitment. In my capacity at GPTMC, I work very closely with many of our tourism partners who might potentially be affected by the changes being proposed in the new carriage bill. Let me begin by applauding the actions of Council to properly regulate Philadelphia's horse carriage industry. The historic fabric of the City is what visitors say they like most about coming here, and carriage tours are a big part of what makes our city an attractive and a historic destination. They add -- as my colleague Mr. Bush said, they add to the ambience that makes the Independence Park area one of the most popular places to visit among travelers. It is within the spirit of preserving the character of what is known as "America's most historic mile" that we urge the committee to modify some of the suggested provisions of the proposed bill. First, we would recommend adjusting the proposed times under which the carriages would be 91 /00 L&I - BILL 2 allowed to operate. The proposed times would ban carriages during times when they currently accommodate the greatest number of visitors, which may jeopardize the services for which many of the local and national tour companies have been engaged to perform. We will be, in effect, altering the tourism product in such a manner that it may not be as attractive a package to our guests, which include the tour companies and the overnight guests they serve, along with unscheduled groups, conventioneers, leisure travelers, and residents. Timing in this instance is everything and we urge the committee to work with all effected parties in developing a schedule that better addresses these concerns. Other changes being proposed by this bill include adjusting the routes and limiting the conditions under which the carriages operate. While we would support any changes which would ensure the safety of the animals, the safety of the public, and the demands of our visiting tourists, we believe that serving the interest of one at the expense of the other will cause greater conflict, where cooperation is essential. 92 /00 L&I - BILL 2 We cannot offer solutions; however, we believe it is our goal to urge the conversation to continue in reaching a common ground that balances the needs of the City and its growing tourism industry. I thank you for the opportunity to address you today, and I'm open for questions.
Would you be more specific as to what your recommendations are? Because you mention certain times and so on, but you did not say which times you preferred.
Well, we're not in a position to advocate for one specific time over another.
Well, we know that, based on what's in the bill, that it would cause carriages to shut down during the afternoon hours, and common sense tells us that that's when most visitors are interested in taking carriage rides -- in the afternoon, early evenings.
Do you have anything 93 /00 L&I - BILL 2 other than common sense to tell you that?
We, don't currently track the number of visitors that utilize the carriage services; that's not one of the things that we track in our research.
But in order for us to be able to arrive at a decision, we depend on individuals such as yourself and the gentleman who are in the tourist industry to help us, because you have an expertise as to when the tourists are here, when they go up, when they're available and so on and which times they go to your concierge and ask for certain activities and so on. To testify that the times and the legislation are not adequate and then not give very specific times as to where the adequacy should be and what time those hours should be really leaves us up in the air.
And our -- you know, and then we are going to have to make a decision and we would like to make it -- some of us would like to make it at least with the most information and when it is best for both the industry, the 94 /00 L&I - BILL 2 tourist industry, and the animals, and -- because we consider the health and safety of the animals important, some of us do that. So we would like to find out, you know, when is the best time available.
Councilman, I can respond to that specifically about our hotel. And, as I said, the major tour groups that we have staying with us, they have the carriages pick them up between 8 and 8:30 in the morning, and they go on -- typically it's an hour tour of Old City and Society Hill, and they return back to the hotel, and then they have the whole day in front of them to enjoy Philadelphia. My concern is that the current proposals do limit the times from 3:30 till 6, and then again after 9, and then the travel time in between the carriages really stretches out between the stables another 30 minutes on each side. I think that clearly the times that people want to -- they want to have an opportunity to enjoy the carriages as much as possible. Yes, I think there should be some restrictions, but I currently feel that the 95 /00 L&I - BILL 2 current restrictions you have in place are much too broad. 7 to 9:30 in the morning and then 3:30 to and then again after o'clock, I think, is 5 just too long, and we want to --- our guests want 6 to enjoy Philadelphia, and we're just limiting the 7 amount of time they can use this very important 8 amenity. 9
Well, I don't think -- Councilman DiCicco draft this and I've gotten to know him very well since he's gotten here, and I don't think in his legislation he usually makes up things out of thin air. The hours that he has in there are probably because he has gone through a process of investigation and negotiations with the industry and, I would hope, people from the tourist industry. If there is -- if that is not what you are thinking about or accepting, we would like more definitive answers than just speculation.
Well, in this case, then you should ask the operators what their key peak times are. I can tell you when our guests use it, our primary users of the industry are. But ask the gentleman who follows us 96 /00 L&I - BILL 2 what times they use 'em. You know, if you're concerned about traffic, I would have to assume that the Councilman has talked to the Police Department to find out when the key traffic periods are and then let that guide you. To ask me anecdotally to provide information -- I don't think -- I don't have that.
Thank you. You mentioned when you -- that some tours may start as early as 8:30 in the morning?
Do you know about those tours in advance generally, or are they impulse things?
But the bill 20 provides that special permits can be obtained in advance of the bookings. So if someone, as an example, wanted to book a carriage or carriages -- the proposed legislation has ten days and I think we're going to modify that down a little bit, but in either event, there is at least a minimum of 97 /00 L&I - BILL 2 five days in which a special permit can be requested.
I see Josh Grimes shaking his head no. You want to comment on that, Josh? You can come to the table now.
While Josh is coming up, though, I just -- the reason, and I think, Mr. Bell, you hit on it was -- one of the reasons that we looked at the prohibited hours in the morning and the afternoon basically had to do with traffic control and the issues concerning the safety of the horses as well as the passengers in the carriages at rush hour. And from my personal observation, as an example, on many occasions, I took the time to go out into the area where the carriages are operating in during the hours that present legislation prohibits them to be there and -- I'll refer to my earlier statement -- if the carriage companies all acted in the manner in which 76 Carriage Company did, we probably wouldn't be here today, except for maybe the 98 /00 L&I - BILL 2 temperature issue. But I've observed it on many occasions, and I went out specifically to observe Race Street at 4:30 in the afternoon and 5 o'clock mountain in the evening, at the height of the traffic. And Race Street is a major artery to take traffic out of Center City and to get it onto 95 or Columbus Boulevard. It's amazing, it is amazing that no 10 one or no animal has been killed or injured as a result of the congestion that is caused there. And you might be right that visitors and tourists would rather be out there at that time, but they might not understand it, but it's really in their interests that we prohibit the carriages from certain routes during certain times because of the congestion and the problems related with vehicular traffic and the accidents that could be involved as a result of the carriages mixing in with the traffic. So, again, I've been a promoter of economic development and hotel industry and most of it occurs in my district. So, again, as Councilman Ortiz said, we're trying to get some -- even though we've been working on this and I've 99 /00 L&I - BILL 2 been working on it for the better part of two years, I've still come to some road blocks in my decision, my final decision-making as to some of the recommendations in this bill in front of us today on the hours of operation or the prohibited hours and the routes. We're actually still tinkering with it as we're speaking today. This committee will make some recommendations, I assume, for a final vote of the bill out of committee favorably or unfavorably, and that's why we're asking those questions. In the evening, as an example, I mean, the police obviously have an issue and why they suggested that the hours of operation end at 9 p.m. because it gets darker, at 9 o'clock especially, and in the winter, it gets darker even earlier, but we're trying to find that balance between the daylight savings time and standard times to allow these carriages to operate. Because in the evening -- you know, it could be 94 in the afternoon but by the time it gets to be 8 o'clock at night, it's much cooler, and the industry can continue to operate and people can continue to take advantage of the carriages. So 100 /00 L&I - BILL 2 you know it's kind of fluid at times, I think, this whole thing. I appreciate your testimony but, again, that's why we asked you to be here today, and I do appreciate both of you being here today, to try to get some additional information before the final decision is made. (Mr. Grimes comes forward.)
Mr. Grimes, you were shaking head. I think I know where you're going, but --
Councilman, if you don't mind, I'd like to offer a point of clarification.
For the record, I'm Joshua Grimes. I am here today as counsel for 76 Carriage. Councilman, you know, I really hesitate to clarify issues that you or any other member of Council bring up, but under your bill, as it's proposed now, you would -- a carriage company would not be able to get a permit during the prohibited hours, which, in the morning include 7 101 /00 L&I - BILL 2 in the morning to 9:30 a.m. So, in fact, a tour company wanting to take a tour at the Society Hill Sheraton at 8:30, in fact, could not do that tour under this bill as it's presently written. So I just wanted to clarify that.
I realized that after I said it and I saw you shaking you're head that I was --
Thank you, Mr. Grimes. Any other questions? Councilman Rizzo.
I'll take advantage of Counselor Grimes being on the stand with us. In reference to your memo about above 90 degree 30 days, let's say that during the time of operation, it's 85 degrees and it then hits 94 degrees for 3 hours of the day and then above 90 degree days. You said it's 30 days off the street according to the arithmetic. Are you talking because it reached that one day at sometime late afternoon 90 degrees, did you count that as a day?
Yeah. Councilman, I got these statistics from the National Weather 102 /00 L&I - BILL 2 Service. And, in fact, I don't have the times that it reached those temperatures, but I think for the effect of this -- and I offered these statistics soley because Councilman DiCicco asked for them.
But I think the -- if I may, the consequences that the carriages, as I understand it, are directed to leave the street and go back to the stables when it reaches this temperature. So even if it only reaches that temperature for an hour at 4 in the afternoon, under the current rules, I believe they're off the streets for all intents and purposes probably at least an hour and a half because they have to go back to the stables and wait.
So I think -- I think, you know, we really -- it's kind of skewed here because it's 30 days for 4 hours isn't a whole day. 103 /00 L&I - BILL 2
That's correct. As I say, this was offered, and I had not realized this would be offered to all the Councilpeople, so I apologize if it's misleading, but --
No, I offered it to them to give them a sense of what the possibility or the potential for carriages not to be able to operate, because there's a business -- there is a business issue being discussed here as part of this entire legislation and what but the impact on the industry would be, and I thought it would be best to share that with them so they get a sense of --
I'm William Hawkins. I did a study of the last three years '97, '8, and '9, and in 1999, 90 degrees and above, there were 29 days; 1998, 14; 1997, 13 that were above 90 degrees, 90 and above. And Councilman Rizzo is exactly right; 104 /00 L&I - BILL 2 those are partial days, so it become a smaller percentage of a smaller number of days. 1999 was an extraordinarily hot year, which is why it was excessively high as far as the 29 days.
Excuse me. Mr. Hawkins, I'm not trying to be sarcastic, but where did you get your temperature from?
Bill, why do I think you have a thermometer in every room?
But you're close. 105 /00 L&I - BILL 2 You have 29, (unintelligible) says 20 and you had 30, so we're not miles apart.
Any more questions from the committee? (No further questions.)
Seeing none, the next group is Dr. Ellen Buck, Leslie Fleisher, David Cantor and Roberta Spivek and Leslie Fleisher. Let's try to squeeze everybody up here. If you're at odds, don't fight. (Witnesses come forward.)
I'm Dr. Ellen Buck, and I'm here to speak on behalf of the Humane Society of the United States. I'm the Director of Equine Protection for HSUS. Our offices are in Washington, DC. I'm a licensed veterinarian and I have been for the past 14 years. In the first seven years of my career, I was in private practice on strictly horses, including race track practice, so I was biting my tongue during some of the earlier conversation here. After seven years in private 106 /00 L&I - BILL 2 practice, I joined the Food and Drug Administration, where I worked on animal drug development, dog, cat and horse development for five years. And a little more than a year ago, I took the position with HSUS as Director of Equine Protection. In that capacity, I develop and represent for the organization all of their views on domestic horse issues -- carriage horses being one part of that. So I'm not as prepared as I would like to be because I have to cover the entire spectrum of equine issues for the organization, not just carriage horses. So this has been thrown together a little bit quickly here right now today. Let's see. Carriage horses, I just want to say, were actually the initiating factor in the development of the humane movement -- this might be a little more history than you care to hear, but the ASPCA was founded in the 1800s to respond to the needs of carriage horses in New York City, so they have been the driving force behind all humane movements and are a continuing problem here in the year 2000. 107 /00 L&I - BILL 2 From my office -- and, again, I am in the central office, and I came up here as a favor to one of our regional offices that deals with the Philadelphia. I had been contacted by folks in Philadelphia about this issue before, but I just wanted to say that I get complaints from Hawaii to New York with complaints about the carriage-horse issues. I have ongoing complaints and have had dialogue with people working on carriage-horse issues in Bermuda; Little Rock, Arkansas; Mackinaw Island, Michigan; New Orleans, Honolulu; and last year, in the height of the heat, had a complaint from someone in New York City because of carriage horses still being on the street despite the temperature having surpassed their threshold requirement. There's not a lot I can do about it at that point, but it an ongoing problem all across the country. The point of view of my organization is primarily that we would prefer not to see carriage horses in urban areas. It's a concern about the horses, the horses trying to work in traffic, horses working in congestion and with the fumes, 108 /00 L&I - BILL 2 and horses primarily with the high temperatures, and also the bad footing. But we recognize that in a lot of cities, it is going to -- it's going to continue; Philadelphia being one of those cities, New York being one of those cities. So in most cases, we try to work with you all to develop the most humane possible regulations with the interest of the horses in mind. So I'm not here to tell you to throw your entire carriage industry out, but I would like to encourage you to make the most humane possible laws that you can. You have to recognize -- tourism is a concern here. But you have to recognize that there's more than 7 million members of the Humane Society of the United States, that are -- some of whom wind up calling me with complaints about this, so you're concerned about maintaining a positive image in your tourist industry, but you also have to recognize that a bad carriage industry also reflects very badly on your city. Those are the people that call me. I have people calling and saying they will never return to such-and-such place because of what they saw. So you do have to be concerned about that. It as an 109 /00 L&I - BILL 2 equal impact to negatively impact on your tourist industry as it does to positively impact it. I'd like to address primarily in my discussion here the issue of high temperature.
I actually have a package of information that I'll give you all at the end here -- I meant to pass it out before here -- a letter on our letterhead on behalf of most of the proposed regulations. But you do have pretty much the highest temperature threshold of any city that I could come across. I did pull out the regs and I've included them in the package of information for Washington, DC and for Cleveland, Ohio. In Washington, the high threshold is 89. Cleveland has a very comprehensive, very carefully worded carriage-horse regulation. Their high temperature threshold is 85, and the initiating factor for their regulations that have been developed was an unpleasant accident involving humans and horses some years back. Contrary to --
So do they still have a horse carriage business out there or --
I'm not certain. This was fairly recent, so -- and, again, you know, Washington, DC and every other city. As has been pointed out, regulating the temperature really has not put these organizations out of business.
Okay, just curious. Thank you. I didn't mean to interrupt you, I just --
Let's see, okay. I have with me -- and I won't bore you with this too much, but I did a literature source for information on horses exercising in heat, and it turns out there's a considerable body of medical literature on that issue. The initiating factor for that was, when it was announced that the Olympics were going 111 /00 L&I - BILL 2 to be held in Atlanta in 1996, there was considerable concern about the effect on the horses competing in the heat in the equestrian phases of the Olympics so that you need a real economic incentive to initiate a lot of animal research, and that was the factor that started a lot of that. They did a lot of studies measuring specific parameters of horses' body temperature, core body temperature, sweating, everything you can imagine -- more than you can imagine, because it's heavy science -- in horses exercises in low temperature and low humidity, moderate temperature and moderate humidity, and high temperature and high humidity. The threshold standard that they used in numerous studies -- and, again, I have the abstracts here with me that I'll provide you with. The high temperature threshold was 30 degrees Centigrade, which is 86 degrees Fahrenheit. That was considered a high temperature extreme for these horses working. They weren't working for periods of 8 or 9 hours; these were fit race horses that were exercised in a structured amount of time, usually about 45 112 /00 L&I - BILL 2 minutes. And in 45 minutes at the high temperature and high humidity threshold, they were able to get body temperature up to a critical point where they had to stop exercising. So 86 degrees with exercise is a considerably high temperature for a horse. The other point that some of these studies make is, we make the comparison between people and their ability to exercise in heat and horses. There is some tremendous similarities, but the fact is, horses are not as able to dissipate heat as humans; horses are less heat-tolerant than we are. So because of the shape of their body, their muscle mass, they can't tolerate heat even as well as we can. You're talking about taking your temperature threshold from 95 and perhaps making it as high as 92. I would maintain that I think 89 would be much better. I certainly don't believe you should go above 90. And, again, high temperature, high humidity in research studies has been considered 86 degrees. I've even got some finished studies where it was about 82 degrees as the high temperature threshold there. 113 /00 L&I - BILL 2 And, again, the other factor is, you're talking about riding horses, and I've ridden my horses in the heat as high as 94. I've also came close one time in very high humidity to, with light exercise, putting in one of my horses in heat stress, which was a very scary thing because I didn't have access where I was riding. In the woods and in the shade, I didn't have access to any of my equipment and cooling. And that's also a problem in the City. You don't want to push these horses to the point of heat stress because who's going to come in and save them? You need large quantities of water, you need intravenous fluids. The studies that I've cited here were controlled circumstances and fit horses. And one more point about the fit horses is, thoroughbred horses and light-bodied horses actually are able to control their body temperature and dissipate the heat more readily than draft horses. The heavier breeds of horses, the kinds that tend to be carriage horses are less tolerant of heat, even on a light breed of horse or riding breed of horse. 114 /00 L&I - BILL 2 Let's see what else I have here. The other thing we do too with riding horses is, again, yes, we can ride, but we're ready to jump off and initiate cooling immediately, which they also did in these studies -- hosing and providing fluids. And that's what they did to accommodate Atlanta; they changed the times of work so that they were working in cooler --
Not to interrupt you, but tell me a little bit about the low end of this scale.
Okay, I was going to get that and I didn't do a lit search on that. I will tell you that horses tend to be more cold-tolerant than we are. So their tolerant schedule is shifted down from ours. A concern that everyone has and the City should have as well is human incidents, and I will say that in cooler weather, in order to maintain their body temperature, horses become more active, they get a little frisky. I think you should concern yourself a little bit about horses being a little more inclined to become frisky and get accidents at the colder 115 /00 L&I - BILL 2 temperatures. There was discussion here earlier about perhaps doing away with the wind chill, and there was some information on the news that they are going to change the wind chill factor structure. So I think I would agree, perhaps, with just going with the straight temperature scale. The other thing, though, about temperature is that it also depends on it not being severely windy and it not being damp or wet. Horses can be blanketed in --
That's with wind chill. I 116 /00 L&I - BILL 2 would say a straight 30, 32 would be fine -- would be okay, as long as the horses are in condition, not underweight, and it's not wet out. Rain, snow is going to impact on that really severely.
Doctor, thanks for coming today. Is there anything that the carriage trade industry could do on the hotter days while the horses are in the staging area? Is it realistic to give a horse a sponging-down, give 'em a little bucket of water over the head, a little hosing? You know, is there anything that they could do?
It's a large volume of water is what they need and a total body soaking, and that's not going to be good with the harness on. You don't want to soak the horse and then have it sitting under the harness. And, again, we're not talking about a sponge bath; we're talking about a hose and gallons and gallons of water. Dumping water on the head absolutely would not be adequate to cool them down. 117 /00 L&I - BILL 2
Thank you. All right, any other questions here? (No further questions.)
Okay. I don't know if you want my research paper or not, but I've got it.
Thank you. Anything you have, give us and we'll put it in the record -- unless you want to keep going.
My name is Tina Nelson. I'm the Executive Director of the American Anti-Vivisection Society. Thank you for the opportunity to speak today on this important issue, the care of carriage horses in the City of Philadelphia. As I said, I'm Tina Nelson, Executive Director of AAVS, which is located in Jenkintown, 118 /00 L&I - BILL 2 PA. AAVS is an international nonprofit animal protection organization, which was founded in Philadelphia in 1883. We're the oldest animal protection organization in the United States and have a membership which spans the globe. Because our national office is located in the Philadelphia area, we have a large number of members in the City and in the surrounding region. I am here to represent our board of managers and members who are very concerned about the care of carriage horses. Although AAVS would like to see the City Council ban the carriage-horse industry from the City of Philadelphia, I appreciate the fact that Council is willing to revise the existing ordinance to bring Philadelphia's care of carriage horses up to the standard of many cities and make conditions for these animals more humane. I respectfully request the following revisions be made to the horse carriage ordinance: Horses must not be worked when temperatures are above 89 degrees Fahrenheit or below 32 degrees Fahrenheit. Blankets must be provided for horses at 119 /00 L&I - BILL 2 32 degrees Fahrenheit. Horses must not be in harness for more than 8 hours in one day. Stables must be inspected at least every six months by a licensed large-animal veterinarian. No carriage is to be operated before 9:30 a.m. and between 4 p.m. to 6 p.m. due to the stress on horses in heavy traffic, as well as safety issues. Improved enforcement by the City of the ordinance and regulations and more severe penalties for noncompliance. In closing, I would like to thank City Council and all agencies involved for closing the stables that were in poor conditions and where horses have not received humane treatment. As we all know, the care and respect we show for animals is a direct reflection about our society and how we treat others. I urge City Council to make these revisions for the horses and provide strict enforcement of the regulations so we can set an example for those who visit this wonderful city. Thank you. 120 /00 L&I - BILL 2
Hello. I'm Roberta Spivek. I'm the Chair of the Carriage Action Alliance, a group of Philadelphia residents and taxpayers concerned about the treatment of Philadelphia's carriage horses. I got involved in this when I moved to Society Hill about five years ago, where I rent an apartment. I don't own a car, so I ride the bus, and when I wait for the bus almost every day at Sixth and Spruce Street, I can't avoid seeing these horses. So for me, it's become an issue. I got involved with it because it's there every day in my neighborhood. I'd like to thank you for holding these hearings today. I'm not an equine expert or veterinarians but an ordinary citizen who has been sickened by watching these horses forced to pull heavily-loaded carriages through Philadelphia's brutal summer heat ant humidity, breathing in SEPTA and car exhaust fumes for ten hours a day 121 /00 L&I - BILL 2 every day, all summer long. We support the proposed changes to the ordinance, which would bring Philadelphia more in compliance with the Humane Society guidelines. I've attached to my testimony a letter from Dr. Ellen Buck of the Humane Society supporting those changes and also a letter from Mayor Street supporting the Humane Society guidelines. In three areas, we would like to propose changes to be stronger. First, in terms of the proposed 90 degree maximum temperature, we urge the committee to instead adopt the Humane Society's recommended heat index of 150, which takes humidity into account. Failing that, the maximum temperature should be 89 degrees Fahrenheit. Second, the horses must be in harness no more than nine hours a day. Finally, we would like much more stringent stable-inspection requirement than have been proposed. Given the egregious violations recently found in the stables of two of the carriage companies and the failure of the SPCA and the City to catch those violations, we feel that 122 /00 L&I - BILL 2 twice-yearly inspections are inadequate. Instead, we call for monthly unannounced inspections so that violations will not take six months to be discovered. I understand that the carriage owners are concerned about the impact on their business. I believe that impact would be minimal. Even if it is not, operating a business in the City of Philadelphia should not give anyone license to operate in an inhumane or unsafe manner. Restaurants could make more money if they didn't have to follow strict health ordinances, builders could build more quickly if they didn't have to follow stringent worker-safety guidelines. Profits in the carriage trade should not come by squeezing the life blood out of these animals. Animals are not just a source of cash; they are sentient beings who feel pain and suffering and who rely on us to protect them. We recognize that a lot of work has gone on in bringing us to this point, and we urge City Council to hire Dr. Ellen Buck equine veterinarian Dr. Holly Cheever or another carriage horse equine expert to help work out any changes 123 /00 L&I - BILL 2 to the final ordinance so that it can be introduced to Council immediately. These changes should and must be adopted by the beginning of this summer. With Philadelphia in the national spotlight during the Republican Convention, City Council has a clear choice to continue to allow Philadelphia to operate its carriage trade under the worst humane conditions in the nation under the eyes of the national press and in the face of likely protests and tourist leafletting by animal-rights groups, or to make our trade a model for the nation, as Randall Hirschhorn of the Department of Environmental Services has urged. I believe the choice is clear. Thank you.
Thank you. Thank you for your testimony. Please state your -- identify yourself for the record.
Hello. I'm David Cantor. I'm the East Coast Field Representative of the Animal Protection Institute. Thank you for the opportunity to 124 /00 L&I - BILL 2 mention concerns about the use of horses to pull carriages in Philadelphia. The Animal Protection Institute has about 500 members in Philadelphia and thousands throughout the area. I'm the East Coast Field Representative, and I've been researching animal-related issues for about years, since I 9 started working full-time for national animal 10 Advocacy organizations in 1989. I learned about 11 the horse carriage industry several years ago when I took part in the effort to ban carriage horses from Washington, DC. Strong public support for the ban showed that many people had learned of the suffering of horses used to pull carriages, that horses do not belong in automobile traffic, and that a carriage ride in today's cities reveals nothing about history. A haunting image that I hope does not occur in Philadelphia or anywhere else, but is probably just a matter of time, was in a photograph taken in New York City. A horse lay helpless on a city street after being hit by a car. With part of his intestines lying outside of his body, he was still alive and conscious, his 125 /00 L&I - BILL 2 one visible eye wide open and bulging out of his head in pain and terror. As long as horse carriages are permitted in Philadelphia, API supports the strictest possible regulations. The proposed amendments to the Philadelphia Code that the committee is kind enough to consider here today will make significant improvements to the well-being of the horses, help prevent the worst suffering, and improve public safety. m. m. Would diminish risk and stress on horses due to heavy traffic and help prevent terrible accidents. Anyone who seeks to ride on a horse-drawn carriage on city streets can do so at other times, and one hopes will not blame the City Council for depriving them of rush-hour carriage rides. Like other animals, horses are very much affected by extreme temperatures. In summer, asphalt temperatures can become 50 degrees or more hotter than the air. Human beings sitting in the shade are going from one air-conditioned building 126 /00 L&I - BILL 2 to another, walking on less heat-absorbent concrete may not appreciate the plight of horses kept on the street all day. API would like to see the maximum temperature for horses pulling carriages lowered as much as possible. Eighty-nine degrees Fahrenheit, as has been proposed, would be a step in the right direction. The industry's wish to use horses as much time as possible should not be given higher priority than the physical health needs of horses who cannot tell the carriage drives or passersby how miserable they feel and will work till they drop if forced to, as has in fact happened. As you can see in the letter you received from API's veterinarian, Jean Hofve, we do not want horses to be in harness or at work for more than 8 hours a day. A limit of 9 hours in harness would be a great improvement over 12 in harness, including time to and from work, with 10 horses at work. Imagine how you would feel if you were forced to perform a strenuous physical task in hot weather while breathing in huge amounts of car exhaust, with long interludes standing still on hot streets, wearing oppressive and irritating 127 /00 L&I - BILL 2 equipment. Surely you would be very glad for a 10 percent reduction in your work day and a 25 percent reduction of time in cumbersome gear. Frequent inspections are a must for horses' living conditions and health, as indicated by the recent unfortunate revelations of appalling conditions at a Philadelphia stable. Two inspections per year will help prevent neglect from taking as terrible a toll on the animals as would occur with no strict inspection regiment. Inspections should be unannounced and should not become predictable to stable managers.
Animal industries typically claim to give animals excellent care without regulation because, they say, profits are higher when animals are well-cared for. Time after time, in industry after industry, this is proven false. Abuse and neglect go far beyond cutting corners in animal industries. As was recently demonstrated in Philadelphia, that can easily happen in the carriage industry too. The same is true for human safety. Carriage passengers lack protection in the event of accidents. The requested improvement carriage regulations will help protect human 128 /00 L&I - BILL 2 beings as well as horses. Please write the proposed amendments into law. The horses, API members, and countless other people will appreciate your thoughtfulness as it is well established that animals, including horses, are thinking, feeling beings, and exploiting them produces an enormous burden of responsibility to ensure their well-being and their enjoyment of their short but valuable lives. Thank you very much for considering my comments, and I'll be glad to answer any questions you may have.
Any questions for this witness from the committee? (No questions.)
Seeing none, let's go to the next panel. Leslie, did you want to testify? I called you before.
Leslie Fleisher, and I'm on the Mayor's Animal Advisory Committee.
Just to clarify, Councilman Mariano, I served in two administrations, I didn't know either mayor but still got on the committee.
Okay. Listen, I didn't know Councilman Ortiz was on it and he sits across the hall from me.
I'm also on the Philadelphia and Pennsylvania State Representative for the Animal Legal Defense Fund, and from that perspective, all I want to add is that we echo what's going on here, but we're handling it more on a national level. You've had excellent testimony here today. You've gotten a lot of information, and all I want to Council keep in mind is, when you go 130 /00 L&I - BILL 2 back to deliberate, you have a lot of interests to balance -- not only community interests, not only the humane aspect, but you're looking at business owners, and you have the onerous job of making everybody happy. And Councilman DiCicco as already said that's not going to happen, but I am confident that you're going to go back and do your best --
-- to support all the interests. So I hope you have get a good result. I really don't have anything else to add.
Seeing none, we'll get another group up here. John Roblonski, Edward M. Goldsmith, Michael Slocum. Did Violet testify? How anybody that hasn't testified? Mike, come on. (Witnesses come forward.) 131 /00 L&I - BILL 2
My name is Laura Homer. I do the testing of the drivers since the onset of the program, and I've been testing most of the drivers that are presently driving in the City of Philadelphia.
Now, help me here, I'm not trying to be funny, but do you test them for drugs?
They do several things. First, they're tested on their ability to take care of the horse, harness the horse, and put 'em to the carriage. Then they're tested on their driving ability, they're asked several questions. It's a form given by the City. And then they get a temporary license, and later on, the City sends them a permanent license.
And I've been -- myself, I've been driving probably longer than anyone in this room, I've been driving for 52 years and I've had carriages ever since -- not commercial carriages, I do private -- I mean, I just have my own carriages. And I've also been a judge for the last years. I judge carriages all over the 15 country and give clinics, and so I'm very familiar 16 with the driving industry. 17 First of all, I have to disagree with 18 some of these comments that were made today 19 because these are draft animals, or draft-type 20 animal, that are used for this. They're bred to 21 work. I mean, this is what they're bred for. 22 They only walk; they don't do anything else. They 23 walk and stand, and that is not strenuous on any 24 horses. I mean, if you see other horse in other 25 horse industries, they work hard. I don't care if 133 /00 L&I - BILL 2 it's for two minutes. A race horse only goes two minutes, but they work hard those two minutes and that's far harder than these horses standing in harness all day. Another thing --
I mean, these aren't like race horses at the end of their careers?
Oh, definitely not. These are called "workhorses," and workhorses bred to work. I mean, that's there only purpose.
I'm embarrassed to say I've probably have been on or near a horse except for the ones I ride by, so these are the big horses.
Yes, big horses. Riding or driving a carriage horse -- you know, a carriage horse, not the ones that work in the City, are much smaller-built horses. They're all breeds, but they are smaller-built than these horses that work in the cities. They're huge horses, and a 134 /00 L&I - BILL 2 huge horse like that will sweat more standing in the stable than they will standing on the street. If you see them on the street, you know, while they're waiting for a ride, they're not sweating, there's no sweat there. And they're given all the water they want, there's no problem. When they're in the stables, you'll see them -- a horse sweats like a person, you know, they perspire -- not like a dog where they pant.
Well some of us Councilpeople don't sweat. I won't tell you which ones. (Laughter.)
But if you look up here, you'll see who's not sweating.
Right. Let me see what else I have. You can't compare them with other breeds of horses for sure.
They also get time off every week, they have a day or two off every week, and then they're given usually two months out of 135 /00 L&I - BILL 2 the year where they're turned out to pasture to re -- just to have a good time. So they're not working 365 days a year, like some people think. And also, these carriages that they pull, they're on ball bearings and they pull -- you can -- I can pull them, I have no trouble pulling 'em. And they're all on ball bearings and they pull very, very easily.
Oh, really? Well, we pull them to put -- turn them around, bring 'em in, bring 'em out. And, really, there is no weight to them. And they all have a full fifth wheel, which means they can spin around on a dime. I mean, there's a -- they have a wonderful turning basis. And all the streets are basically flat, and so it's much easier for a horse to pull a carriage on a street than it is on dirt. Dirt is deep and it digs in, the wheels dig in and it's twice as hard pulling. I mean, I do both and, believe me, the street driving is a lot easier.
Just a little piece of information -- bear with me. You don't 136 /00 L&I - BILL 2 work for any City areas?
Oh. But do you work for one of these private concerns?
But you just do this -- you do this as a living or is this a hobby?
I was appointed. This was approved by the City of Philadelphia, I was approved by the City of Philadelphia with my credentials, when they first started this licensing. 137 /00 L&I - BILL 2
Mr. Hirschhorn, would you please enlighten us here? 'cause I'm having a problem trying to figure this out. (Mr. Hirschhorn returns to witness table.)
You had me until you told me you were going to pull that carriage around because I can't see myself --
Again, for the record, Randall Hirschhorn, Director of Environmental Health Services. There is a requirement in the current regulations that horse-carriage operators must demonstrate proficiency in tacking the horse, driving the horse, and in common safety procedures.
And since we have no 13 one in City service, we had asked the Police Department Mounted Unit if they would be the examiners, and they said that because they ride horses, they don't have a proficiency, though, in carriage-horse operations. So we went to independent people and got their credentials, showed it to the horse advisory person on the Animal Advisory Committee to make sure that she felt that they were adequate in terms of their credentials. We provided the names of the individuals to the carriage companies so that they could employ them to test their drivers, and we provide the forms. 139 /00 L&I - BILL 2
So there's more than one. If I own a carriage company, I can call her or a couple of other people?
Also, I beg to differ, but the Health Department has experience with all the carriage companies, not just several. And I can tell you that horses are not turned out by all the companies. I wish they were, I wish they would follow the example that's set by Mr. Slocum, but they do not. And these horses are not rested weekly, they are not rested and turned out to pasture. So some owner are conscientious and do that, and others don't even file their teeth or change their horse shoes.
I summed it up but everybody didn't like the word I used. There was -- what did I say? and I don't have to say it again -- the good guy, the middle, and the derogatory statement I used for the last two, but Mark McDonald's writing an article about it 'cause 140 /00 L&I - BILL 2 I used that word.
I believe I was referring to the two top stables that we're talking about, yes.
How do you know -- how do you qualify that statement that you just made that you know that these horses -- are you -- how do you monitor that? You made a very positive statement that these horses, just by -- because they're thin, because of their appearance, or are you just speculating that they're not turned out?
No, we're not speculating. We've talked to their drivers, the City has investigators who have also talked to some of the drivers and we've asked them to produce records.
Whoever keeps records of when you turn a horse out to pasture?
Well, they have to 141 /00 L&I - BILL 2 take it to a farm, they have to pay a fee for that, and it's an accounting practice in a business that if you're going to pay a fee, it's part of your business, that you pay those receipts. Now, the good companies have no trouble verifying. The other companies, if they claim that they do this, their drivers say that the horses are never out of the City and they can't produce any proof to show, then it has to be our conclusion that those horses are not turned out.
I don't mean to be argumentive (sic), but do you think a cab driver knows if the oil's been changed in the cab?
Not if he owns it, if he's driving it. Mr. Slocum, Councilman DiCicco's suggesting -- I just don't want a statement to be made here that suggests that other operators don't do -- maybe they don't, but we have no way to qualify that statement. How do you do it? 142 /00 L&I - BILL 2
We, in fact, send our horses probably a good solid two months out of the year, and in some horses, it may be as much as four months out of the year, go to a turnout. We have an 18-acre farm that we do not own. However, we work with the individuals who own the farm, the horses are turned out. Certain horses go out over summer months, certain horses are turned out over the fall-winter season. In fact, the majority of our horses are turned out over the winter months. When the business subsides for the winter season, we turn them out. I can obviously document that through the owners of the farm, the facility, through paid documents on work bills. We pay a fee per day per horse to have these horses turned out in Lancaster County.
Well, in the wintertime, it's the most -- is not the most desirable time to turn a horse out.
They don't need grass. What they do is, they feed them hey, they 143 /00 L&I - BILL 2 supplement them with hay, and they're turned out on the farm. In fact. That's the best time for these horses to be turned out. They get to move around, they get more exercise and activity. And prior to -- despite any beliefs, I believe that the best conditions for these horses is to be out in the elements and be out -- we have a section of our stable, which is actually like a lean-to shed, and that is the optimal conditions for us, where they are constantly in the atmospheric environment, whether it be with the temperature, humidity, the heat, the cold, whatever, so that they don't experience the extremes, which, I think, humans misinterpret. As we sit in this controlled environment here and we go to walk out on a 94-degree day and hit the street, it appears to us to be very hot, but someone like myself, who tends to work outside and enjoys outdoor activities, I could work outside at 94 or 100 degrees all day long. In fact, I thrive on that; I prefer not to do it in the cold.
Well, obviously, if that's what you do, that's why today you've been 144 /00 L&I - BILL 2 recognized as being one of the better or the best operator in the carriage-horse industry, so that's very commendable that you do that.
Well, I appreciate that, and I wish that everyone would do this, obviously. However, what I feel strongly about is that there has to be a stable management program, which addresses all of these issues. And when we do that, or if we can do that, and address the everyday care of the animal, not just days when 12 it's 94 degrees, but 365 days a year, you know, 13 24/7, that's what will improve the overly quality 14 of way that horse looks and what that horse can do 15 when he's out on the street.
Thank you. Any more questions? (No further questions.)
Okay. Josh, you want to testify? Michael, you want to testify?
Thank you. My name is Michael Slocum. I'm the President of 76 Carriage Company. And all I want to say is that I've been in and around business, the horse-drawn carriage 145 /00 L&I - BILL 2 industry, since 1975, going on some 24 years. Our reputation for sound business practices and operating standards are nationally known throughout the industry. And I want to, I guess, spare you all of the introduction that I have. I would like to address certain issues, specific issues of the legislation, which I feel need to be amended or remain the same. On the issues of the hours that the horse currently operate, it is proposed that carriages will be banned operated from 7 to 9:30 a.m. What we propose is that the carriages are banned from operating on City streets between the hours of 7 and 9 a.m., except with the issuing of a permit, which may be obtained from the Department of Streets, with five days' prior notice. We also propose that the ban on carriages between 3:30 and 6 p.m. be made to read that "carriages between the hours of 4 and 6 p.m. must adhere to approved carriage routes only and may not deviate from those routes, except under such permit granted by the Department of Streets." This would curtail all carriage 146 /00 L&I - BILL 2 activities within a certain restricted area and not greatly prohibit the revenue, the inconvenience to tourists or the inconvenience to the employees who are trying to make a living by doing this type of business. The proposed o'clock -- 9 p.m. we 8 suggest be 12 midnight. Again, for us to employ 9 people and to survive in this industry, to obtain such drastic cutbacks on our operational hours would cause us substantial decreases in revenue. We would not be able to obtain employees to work between the hours of 9:30 and 3 o'clock in the afternoon, which is not a significant amount of time to be able to pay someone for a period or generate enough revenue for that; and, certainly, we cannot ask them to stay around until 6 p.m. to go back out on the street and only work until 9 p.m. We also employ people who work for us in the evening hours, and a lot of times, these carriages go out at 6 p.m. in the evening and will work until midnight to satisfy the demands of the casual tourist, leisure tourist, local Philadelphians, as well as prearranged groups and 147 /00 L&I - BILL 2 bookings. We propose that these be year-round ordinances, with no exceptions based on the time of year, month, day, except for Saturday and Sunday. We ask that there be no regulations or restrictions on Saturday and Sunday. We understand that there are traffic issues and real issues that are at the heart of this regulation; however, Saturdays and Sundays we feel we should be exempt from such regulations and restrictions, and they are peak operating days for this industry to provide such a service for the visitorship, ridership, and the tours industry.
Yes. As far the Department of Health and -- the Public Department of Health and the Streets Department to provide a waste-management program, we certainly agree with this system. I understand that there's a real need and concerns about the issues on the streets. However, we hope that we could be involved in drafting this system that we can implement, as well as our concerns are 148 /00 L&I - BILL 2 addressed as far as the cost of these issues go. I certainly would not like to have a system in place that would be so monetarily heavily imposed upon us that it would make it not conducive for us to operate. By the way, the National Park Service did regulate us at one point, and we were obligated to clean the carriage stands designated on Chestnut Street, and it was on a rotation basis then, where each company had a month that they had to clean the streets. Since the carriages have been moved or relocated from Chestnut to Fifth and Sixth Streets, the National Park Service has been more lenient with our permit applications and the requirements under that permit. They have instituted $10,000-1-year annual assessment fee per -- divided among the carriage companies. However, there is nothing in those current permit requirements that suggest or require us to clean up the environment around which we work, including those stands. I do want to state for the record that we currently do that. I employ someone every day to clean that area and make sure that that area of 149 /00 L&I - BILL 2 the carriage stands are cleaned and sanitary.
And when you say "we," you're referring to your company.
Do you know of any other companies that are doing that?
The Department of Public Health shall devise a system, a point system, for the suspension of carriage licenses. This is not a system that's new for us. Under the National Park regulations, prior to last fall, when we were moved off Chestnut Street, the National Park Service issued us a permit which had many regulations or many -- many stipulations that we must abide by in order to operate around the National Park area, and it was all based on a point system. So if the enforcement rangers came to the Independence National Park area and they observed the carriage driver doing something that was in clear violation of the point system, we were in fact issued a number of points for that. 150 /00 L&I - BILL 2 It was done in writing, and there was an appeal process. If the carriage company were to accumulate so many points within a one-year period, they would face suspension, and I certainly am not opposed to that. I do believe that this is one way to ensure that the operators as well as the drivers understand need the for such regulations and how serious they are. So I hope that the carriage operators will have a voice or at least some input. Perhaps maybe you should have the National Park Services guidelines or its point system codes and we can mimic some of them, but that, we already have or had copies of, and I'd be willing to supply that as well. In regard to the identification numbers displayed on the horses, I'm certainly not opposed to an ID which will be affixed to the horse. It is my hope that we could affix a tag which would be similar to a dog tag. It would be permanently affixed to the horse's halter or bridle, which would have an identification number. Corresponding to that number at the stable would be a file with a photo of the horse and all 151 /00 L&I - BILL 2 pertinent documentation. And that's how I propose that we the identification number. Now let me get to the temperature. Twenty-four years of history in the City of Philadelphia I think is our best case study that we have for the temperature and the current conditions -- the scientific conditions under which these horses operate. We are talking about large draft horses and draft crossbred horses, which walk around the Independence National Park area. They pull carriages, which would amount to nothing more than a toy to you or I. In fact, it is very true that just about every one on this panel could probably pull a carriage fully loaded with people around the 20-minute tour without much problem -- and that's fully loaded. Okay, they're on roller bearings, and there's very, very, very light traction that's needed. Probably the most exerted is when they first start, but once the carriage is rolling, there is minimal pressure needed or energy exerted to move that carriage move. There has never been, despite what we have heard here today, any instance that I am 152 /00 L&I - BILL 2 aware of in 24 years for our company or any other company in which a horse has suffered a heat- related or illness or stress or even death associated with temperature here in the City of Philadelphia. I ask that the temperature of 94 degrees remain the same since we have no 9 scientific documentation which directly relates to the carriage-horse industry here in Philadelphia to prove otherwise. I also ask that we use the KYW clock as a reference for the temperature. It is on the mall. I cannot attest to its accuracy. However, I have heard that we use the temperatures at the airport, but we are not working at the airport, we are working around the mall. It's an easy, visible identification and a way for us to control and monitor the temperature. We don't need the Health Department or SPCA, and I'm sure that they would back us on this. We essentially do not need them to come out and tell us when it's 94 degrees. We haven't in the past.
The industry has, when the temperature has reached 94 degrees and above, taken it upon 153 /00 L&I - BILL 2 ourselves to send these carriages home and remove the horses from the street. We will continue to do that. We're certainly not opposed to them coming down to reinforce that. However, that has been a good gauge for to us use and an accessible measure by which we can send them home and monitor what is happening on the mall around which these horses are operating. As far as the workday goes for the horse, currently, it is ten hours. Again, in my professional opinion in working with these animals in this industry, there is no need for that to be any lower. I would propose that we reword the language to say "ten hours in harness," which would essentially limit a horse's work day to 9 hours and allow us the 30 minutes travel time back and forth. Again, with no scientific studies and no documentation of any instances here in Philadelphia which relate to that being excessive, I ask that that not be altered and that it remain at ten hours per day that we simply have in harness. Incidently, in the legislation, it 154 /00 L&I - BILL 2 states that riding horses -- I believe it states that riding horses. . I'm sorry. All I wanted to say was that it is more physically taxing on a horse to be ridden than it is to pull a carriage. As far as the limitations to the routing, I understand that we are deleting, or proposed to delete, Third Street from Pine Street to Walnut Street. And I ask that with proper cleaning and policing of the area and working with the City and implementing a waste-management program, I believe that will address the issues of the concerned residences and issues relating to that stretch of Third Street, and I ask that it not be deleted from our approved carriage routes. I believe that the leading (unintelligible) block of Third Street, or that stretch of Third Street, would do a great injustice to the Society Hill area, the historical landmarks that are certainly an asset and which we point out on carriage routes. Again, I feel that if we address the issues of the residents in that stretch of Third Street, which are mainly sanitation, and we do that through regulations and implement a plan, I believe we should be able to 155 /00 L&I - BILL 2 continue to utilize that stretch.
Mr. Slocum, not to interrupt you, and I know I'm going to be sorry I said this, but could we actually come down and do that, try to pull a carriage by ourselves?
And if I can't do it, I'll get one of my bigger staffers to do it.
Could Mr. Schrager do it? He's an attorney so he's --
'Cause when she said that -- when the other -- when the other lady said that, I went, "No way." 156 /00 L&I - BILL 2
Is she still here? But if you're saying on the record, it intrigues me 'cause --
It's on the record, yeah. And you can do that. In fact, I'm --
Like if Councilman Rizzo pulled it, could Councilwoman Blondell Reynolds and DiCicco and me --
And I'll -- you know what, if you all want to jump in there, the five of you, I'll pull the carriage around the block. (Applause.)
Anytime. In fact, I would encourage every single person who has a vote and a say in this to come to our facility and see exactly what we do and how we do it, how an operation can be done.
Mr. Slocum, I think I may have said this four or five, maybe six 157 /00 L&I - BILL 2 times today: If they all operated in the manner that you did, we probably wouldn't be here today except for temperature issues. And I'm not patronizing you and not because you've been a supporter of mine -- before someone suggests I'm promoting you. The fact of the matter is, you do run a very good operation. With the Chair's permission, I have a question.
Do you happen to know what percentage of business is conducted -- by your company, anyway -- after the hour of 9 p.m.? And if you don't know the number, okay. I mean, I just was curious.
And, you know, some of the things that are in this bill were basically arbitrary numbers based on what I was getting from a various group of people, and that, as we've heard in testimony today, the numbers have been changing all over the place, even by the experts in whatever field -- the doctor who testified about, I think it was in Cleveland 158 /00 L&I - BILL 2 where, I guess, they get the horses off at 85 degrees, suggested that the low temperature should be 30 degrees straight, flat, 30, but most other people who testified think it should be 32. So, you know, again, we're all over the place again. And, anyway, could you answer that question? And if not we'll move to another question.
As far as the temperature goes, now that you've brought it up, on the downside of the temperature, we are proposing a 20-degree wind chill. We would like to see the 17 amended to 20. 18 And, again, I think that you stated, 19 and I want to state for the record, that you are 20 not doing a horse any justice by blanketing that 21 horse in those low temperatures. Essentially what 22 you had described earlier will happen, and you're 23 actually doing the horse an injustice to provide a 24 blanket for him. And at temperatures of 20 25 degrees, you're still not jeopardizing that 159 /00 L&I - BILL 2 horse's welfare or well-being, especially in the types of animals that are used.
Now to get back to your question, I don't know the exact percentage of business that would be jeopardized after p.m. 8 All I can say is that our night shift, which is a 9 substantial part of our business, generally leaves the barn around 6 p.m., and we operate currently until about the midnight hour -- we feel that that's a safe cutoff time. We've never had any instances or circumstances, problems, any accidents. There may be some traffic issues, and I understand that there are some congestion problems on Chestnut around Second Street, perhaps around South Street. We certainly try to avoid those areas. But our evening is a great portion of our business. We are there to provide walk-up service as well many reservations, engagements, pick up at restaurants, drop-off. It's a tremendous part of our business. Hotel people, as was stated earlier -- 160 /00 L&I - BILL 2
And the interesting thing is, when we're talking about the evening hours, the evenings are generally cooler than the daytime, but we have another problem in the evening, and that has to do with traffic conditions. And in the regs, you know, we're talking about doing some flashing-light systems. Again, I know that we're not going to get this bill out of committee today. My colleagues -- some of them are still around, and we've talked about it. We will take under consideration all of the testimony here today, and at the call of the Chair, we'll do the public meeting and vote the bill out with whatever amendments, if the bill is to be amended, at that time. My other question has to do with the photo ID file. You had suggested that a photograph of the horse be taken and then we have a permanent identification tag or badge or whatever on the harness. Is anyone else doing that now, do you know? Are we doing that?
Currently, we are not, I don't believe that we're required to have an 161 /00 L&I - BILL 2 identification number on that horse, but that is in these regulations -- in the proposed legislation here. And I propose that that is the way it be done, that we have a similar item like a dog tag, which will be permanently affixed to the halter. Now, the halter or bridle, understandably, can be removed. However, I feel that if we do it in this manner and there ever is an issue with a horse, whether it be working too long or inhumane conditions, any official can go up to that animal and take that identifying number off of the tag, go back to that stable to check the photograph, which would properly identify that this number matches this horse, and all documenting evidence and records and all requirements be in the file with the horse.
I don't want to open up another discussion, but are any of the horses branded or tattooed in any way?
That's what I was going to ask. I mean, you could switch those things. Is there any way to say this is that horse? 162 /00 L&I - BILL 2
And I appreciate what you're saying, but I don't know if I want a City employee, or whatever, to have to go back to a stable just to compare the photograph to the horse, although I do respect your offer for some means of identification.
I certainly would not recommend tattooing or branding of the horse. However, there is a practice in place in New York City where they actually brand the hoof. It's not a permanent thing because the hoof does tend to grow; it's a fingernail-type substance, so it will grow out.
I can't really say. That depends on the management and the foot care that you have and the use of supplements, whatever, so it varies from horse to horse. However, I don't feel that that's a very humane way to do it, and I would prefer not to do it that way.
Again, I said I didn't want to open up a whole new discussion; I 163 /00 L&I - BILL 2 just was curious about --
I was going to ask that too. There's a lot of people here that know a lot about horses. And the doctor, you seem to know a lot. Do they identify horses somehow? I mean, could I steal Councilman DiCicco's horse and take it somewhere else? How would you know it's mine? Could you come back up.
Doctor, I thought you left. I was referring to you a few minutes ago; I didn't see you back there. (Dr. Buck returns to witness table.)
Dr. Ellen Buck. There's a number of ways of identifying horses. Tattooing is one way; it's usually done on the soft tissue under the lip with race horses. I'm not real familiar with the New York way of doing it on the hoof. It takes about six months.
Is that a problem 164 /00 L&I - BILL 2 for the horse, or does it hurt? Is it humane?
Hot branding is a humane issue. Cold branding is considered more humane. And then you have microchip identification like they're doing with other animals -- lab animals, dogs and cats, but that would not be real amenable to --
Doctor, the industry just said that it is not humane to do the hoof. Could you just comment on that? I don't know if the hoof is an area that --
The surface of the hoof is not -- no, it's not sensitive; it's horn tissue, like a fingernail.
(Not totally audible, off mike.) Okay, but if it was an area on the horse's body to place an identification number, the hoof would be a place to put it and the horse wouldn't even know it's (inaudible).
But it may have to be done more frequent during the life of the horse, so I'm looking for something that's more permanent but yet humane.
And I would say, we recently worked with the City of Baltimore, doing a consultation on their entire animal services, and I got invited in that because they have carriage- horse issues and another type of carriage concession that's very unique to Baltimore, and they've got a lot of issues down there. They are doing a little bit more like what you're talking about, where they have a horse name, a horse identification, and a photographic record kept at the stables. A lot of that depends on the expertise of the individuals looking and comparing. And I know, those of us who have horses and know horses, we'll recognize them by sight. But an investigator may not be real familiar with horses may not even be able to match up a photograph with the horse.
But the tattoo seems -- I mean, I'm looking at something not to hurt the horse, but that that seems like the easy 166 /00 L&I - BILL 2 way out. As a veterinarian, would you recommend that? Is it humane?
Well, veterinarians would not have the tattooing equipment. There is a subset of people that work at the race track that are responsible for the tattooing.
Slocum, would you ever think of doing that to your horse? We're just asking questions here.
I understand. No, I would never consider doing that to my horse.
Well, I wouldn't consider having a tattoo myself, but having a needle stuck in the upper part of your lip, I mean, I don't know if you'd want to do it or not.
It's an imprint-type tattoo where's it's all done with one squeeze.
I mean, I used to deal 167 /00 L&I - BILL 2 with a lot of standardbred race horses. Half the time, I couldn't read the tattoo number.
I mean, don't know if practices are better or worse today, but you have to physically flip the horse's lip upside down, and some horses don't like that, and you've got to be able to read the number. I mean, it's not -- in my opinion, I've offered what I think is the fair and the best way to regulate this.
And I wasn't suggesting that -- I was looking for something that may be more permanent and easier for the people who will be doing the monitoring of the horses and not have to go up to the stable from Fifth and Market, or wherever it is, and go and identify the horse. And if it turns out that they really can't make a positive identification, then we get into the argument, Well, it is the horse, and then, you know, go back and look at it again. I don't know if that's the appropriate way to do it, either.
I understand that it may be an inconvenience to the system; however, I 168 /00 L&I - BILL 2 think that that's only going to apply when there are cases when there are issues in question, and that would certainly warrant an investigation.
I also want to say that I have a list here of cities which have 10 temperature regulations of 98 degrees or higher. 11 I know that there weren't many offered, but I do 12 want to state that I have a list of 21 here with 13 98 degrees or higher as far as the temperature 14 threshold. 15 And also, in my personal opinion, which 16 is shared by many of our supporters, it would be a 17 tremendous loss to the City of Philadelphia and 18 its growing tourism industry if, in fact, the 19 carriage could not survive due to excessive 20 regulations. This industry is already facing a 21 tremendous burden due to the relocation of the carriage stands away from the 500 block of Chestnut Street onto the adjacent Fifth and Sixth Street locations. We have recently experienced a 30 169 /00 L&I - BILL 2 percent loss of revenue over that move last year. New regulations have added the following additional fees: $10,000 assessment from the National Park Service; proposed street-cleaning fees; to 30 times increase in City licensing 7 fees; less work hours; less days to work -- and 8 that's not incorporating normal increase in daily 9 operating costs. 10 In summary, I can state here today that if these proposed regulations are passed as written, a dependable, responsible horse-drawn carriage operator, such as myself, whose primary business concerns are the animals, whose business practices are well recommended and commended by this very city, tourism agencies, local business groups, and individuals, simply cannot and will not survive. The proposed compromised solutions that I have offered to this committee today hopefully are not a point from which to negotiate but the bare minimums I feel that are necessary to operate the quality-type service that is due of this City of Philadelphia. Thank you. 170 /00 L&I - BILL 2
Ma'am, if you wish to testify, you're going to have to come up to the witness table. Are you on the witness list?
We got plenty to go, yeah. Any questions of this witness? I just have a couple questions. Mr. Slocum, I guess you're a good guy, from what's happening, and the standards that you use -- you're a businessman, too. So you have these standards and, obviously, you like horses, I'll bet ya, but it's an investment and you want to take care of your investments.
Yes, I have been. I want to say first and foremost that I love animals, I 171 /00 L&I - BILL 2 love horses. And that is, I guess, why it's important to me that this be done right. I certainly don't want to sit here and support anyone who does not do this industry right or certainly can't do it justice. And there are not many operators who, in my opinion, do this right do, this industry justice. However, I plead that the committee and Council understand, recognize, and realize that my business practices will show that if you do things right, simply by enforcing -- and I don't -- my business doesn't need enforcing of regulations to be at the standard or level that we are today. But simply by enforcing the regulations that we currently have on the books and addressing the overall living conditions of these animals 7 days a week 24 hours a day, you will see a tremendous increase in the quality, the welfare of these animals out on the street.
So I guess you've never been cited by the City for doing anything? Have you ever been cited?
Have you ever had 172 /00 L&I - BILL 2 a horse, God forbid, die? Or has anything ever happened because of the weather?
And if I understood your testimony, in the cold, you don't give 'em blankets; you think it's better for them, these horses -- this is a learning experience again.
And understand that we don't -- there's no need for the carriages to be out there when it's under degrees or the wind 16 chill factor. And even at that point, they would 17 probably be out there very minimally. 18 However, no, we do not use blankets 19 because blankets can be misused. There is a 20 proper way to use them and under certain conditions. But overall, they can be misused and actually have an adverse effect on the horse by causing a sweating condition.
How much revenue do you think -- would you say how much tax revenue 173 /00 L&I - BILL 2 you think you give the City of Philadelphia?
Yeah. You know, I don't want to know what you make but --
Just this morning, I had to make another deposit into my account. I'm paying over $3,000 a week in employee wage taxes.
The horse-drawn carriages, I would say, in the peak of our season, we would have close to 50 people. 174 /00 L&I - BILL 2
Okay. And how do you control all of the people that work for you? How do you know that you don't get a bad person that's just, you know. . .
I commend my staff because I feel that the people in our management -- (Disturbance from audience members talking out loud among themselves.)
Excuse me, ma'am, ma'am, you're going to get a chance.
I'm sorry. I didn't even know it was you, Councilman, but we got to hear these guys, 'cause this is all important. Sorry to --
I certainly have to say that this not only me, but the members of our staff and the people who are in the management and supervisory positions throughout all of the ranks 175 /00 L&I - BILL 2 of our business certainly feel the same way.
Well, I don't have any more questions. Anyone else have any more questions for Mr. Slocum?
One final question. I believe I have referenced and you have reverenced the Interior Department or the Park Service regs. How do you feel about those regulations, and do you feel those are applicable to -- or that those are the regs that we should look to when we deal with this piece of legislation on the City's side?
Well, I certainly feel that there are pieces and parts of that that should be looked and perhaps incorporated in this. It's for the overall safety and to control the atmosphere under which we operated around the National Park. And I don't know which ones you all would specifically want to incorporate, but I would certainly have -- I mean, these are regulations that, although we're not -- most of them have currently been deleted from the current permit, our company still abides by and feels that 176 /00 L&I - BILL 2 were certainly put in there as necessary requirements to operate.
I think it would be helpful to the committee if you could supply the committee with a copy of the regulations that the Park Service has in place and maybe highlight those that you think would be applicable to the industry from the City's side.
Well, Mr. Chairman, what I was asked to do -- you were all presented with a fairly thick group of letters from various constituencies that were generally in support of Mr. Slocum's testimony, and I won't bore you with all that.
But I would like to -- I 177 /00 L&I - BILL 2 think one of the letters is very important and it's from Dr. Dale Schilling, who is not only the veterinarian for 76 Carriage, but he is also the City of Philadelphia's Police Department horse veterinarian who we had wanted to be here today, but he couldn't, and I would like to read his letter because I think it's fairly important here. This is addressed to Councilman DiCicco. "Dear Councilman DiCicco: Thank you for allowing me to speak on behalf of the horse-and-carriage regulations in Philadelphia. My veterinarian practice is specific to the care and treatment of horses. I have served as the veterinarian for 76 Carriage Company for years. 16 I have also been the veterinarian for the City of 17 Philadelphia mounted police horses for the past 18 18 years. 19 "During the past 22 years, there has 20 never been a problem with heat-related illnesses 21 concerning the horses under my care who work in 22 the City on a daily basis. It is my professional opinion that the current regulation of 94 degrees is adequate to prevent heat-related problems with the carriage horses. Horses who have 178 /00 L&I - BILL 2 accessibility to fresh water, are in good health, and live in a properly managed stable will tolerate the heat while working during the summer months. "Please accept this letter in lieu of Council testimony" and yadda-yadda -- I won't read the rest of the letter but I thought it was fairly important. I would also point out, although I will not read them to you again, that we have just recently provided letters in a separate packet from Charlie Pizzi, the Chairman of the Chamber of Commerce and also from Charlie Heinz, who is the General Manager of the Marriott Hotel and is Chair of the Convention Visitors Bureau's Government Affairs Committee, who are also in support of particular aspects, and I will not read them, so don't --
Thank you. They have all been put into the record. Any more questions? (No further questions.)
Seeing none, now 179 /00 L&I - BILL 2 let's do this right. Who didn't testify? You guys can go.
Let's try to do this in fours or fives. How many other people are there to testify after this group? raise their hand. Anybody else want to testify after this group?
Mr. Chairman, members of Council, my name is Mr. Edwin Goldsmith, I represent the Philadelphia Carriage Company. I'd like to --
I have to ask Mr. Goldsmith -- I don't want to hurt your feelings, but as I ranked everyone from the good guys down to that word I said, "scumbags" --
But you've heard testimony that did say that Philadelphia Carriage Company was one of the --
One of the two good operators. And proceeding from there, I'd like to call as my first witness Dr. Samuel Geller, who is sitting on my right. Dr. Geller, would you give us a little bit of your educational background and professional background.
All right. My name is Samuel Geller. I'm a veterinarian and I'm one of the owners of Quakertown Veterinarian Clinic up in Quakertown, which is upper Bucks County. I have a unique perspective from this in that I wear two hats in that when I was a first-year and second-year veterinarian student at the University of Pennsylvania, my summer job for two summers was driving a horse and carriage. So 181 /00 L&I - BILL 2 I have been in the driver's seat and I know how this business operates. I then graduated veterinary school and did some equine practice along with mixed small animals. Currently, I treat mostly small animals. , etc. So I come with a lot of experience about horses and carriages. And I'm here to basically give my opinion and try and help answer some questions that might be in your mind that other people maybe did not answer. First thing I wanted to talk about was from a driver's viewpoint or a person that's working in the business's viewpoint. There was a lot of talk here about, you know, what's the best way to control the care for these animals and to treat them humanely. And I truly, truly believe that it is -- if these animals are care for properly, if you select the right animals, if they are acclimated, and I think that is the key issue here, are they 182 /00 L&I - BILL 2 acclimated? Meaning, did they start their work in April, when it starts warming up and every day they're doing more work? This is a very seasonal business. You don't have to deal with this question about degrees wind chill factor. The 7 drivers won't go out, there's no business, they 8 don't want to stand their twiddling their thumbs, 9 I didn't either. 10 So we all started going out in the 11 spring, and everyday we did a little more work and 12 a little more work and we made a little more money 13 till we hit the peak season. And during the peak 14 season, it was, of course, the hottest, and our 15 horses were able to handle it because they slowly 16 acclimated every summer. This is the way it 17 works. 18 The horse I drove -- I actually drove a 19 horse, I drove a mule. It was extremely important 20 to me how that animal was because if he wasn't well, guess who didn't have a job, okay? And that is really the -- that shows through in the way these two companies that you've heard from today take care of their animals. To find, first of all, an animal that's 183 /00 L&I - BILL 2 sound is really important. To find one that's safe to drive is extremely important. So to abuse that animal and to not take good care of it doesn't make business sense. These guys aren't cheap, you know, and they're not disposable. And it's not even the cost; it's the training involved, it's the liability, it's the insurance, it's the accidents. So if you don't take care of your horse, you're really a fool. So Philadelphia and 76 have done everything to try and keep their stables intact and keep those animals working. And then there's been a lot of talk about the types of horses. Draft horses are bred to pull carriages. That's -- they're out everywhere in the Amish country, these big, heavy horses, plowing fields. It doesn't matter what the temperature is. Apparently, people must think it's humane out here but it's not humane here. I don't understand some of the rationale as far as statements about, you know, what temperature's right, what's not right. It's really, is the animal in condition, is the animal used to it, can the animal do it? When it is 98 degrees, they don't shut 184 /00 L&I - BILL 2 down Philadelphia Park. " And that was, like, these guys are running at a trot the whole time, and they have vet checks where they're checked. " Normal's 100 degrees, and they get their vet check and they move 'em on, but these horses are conditioned, and they are all trained. These guys are doing strenuous activity for the Olympic team, and this is not, you know, a big problem because they're used to it. The horses you're talking about today are marathon walkers.
They walk, walk, walk, and a lot of times they stand. So, you know, my opinion on temperature -- you know, you can pick whatever magic number you want. I was here, I guess, 15 years ago, when I first graduated veterinary school, when they made the first regulations and they decided the 94 185 /00 L&I - BILL 2 temperature. Now they want to go and change it. The history has been -- where has been the problem? I -- Mr. Slocum said there's been no 5 collapses, there's been no injuries. When I was a driver, we had a collapse. The collapse was the horse had colic, it was an intestinal thing. Maybe people that saw the horse thought it was heat thing but it was an intestinal thing. So where are the documented cases of these crisises (sic) that everybody's talking about or worrying about or predicting? I mean, it's been years since I've sat here, and I 14 don't know of anyone that has come across saying 15 that there's ten horses that died in the City of Philadelphia. So it's a big lot of talk, but where is really the problem? So, you know, you can pick a number, whatever you want. One veterinarian will give you one number, another veterinarian will give you another number. My point is, it's the care of the animal and it's the training, and is that done properly. These guys pull on a flat surface. They're not pulling up and down mountains and 186 /00 L&I - BILL 2 hills. This is not San Francisco; this is Philadelphia. When I drove my carriage, you could see the biggest issue was the horse getting it started. Once they got the momentum, everything is on ball bearings, everything is rolling. If the carriage is treated properly, if it's greased, if it's lubed, it is not such an ordeal. And, again, this is a 1600-pound horse that was bred. We're not talking about Morgan horses. ), they buy Belgians, they buy the big draft horses, and these horses were bred specifically for this, have been since whenever they existed. And to think that this is a different type of horse out there that someone's going to ride, it's not that horse. So, you know, again, we've got to use some common sense here. It's a very emotional issue for a lot of people, and I look -- I look at it from a common-sense thing. You know, what is the history, what is the facts, you know, what have been the problems, and how do you guys come about with a number. There was a big discussion about 187 /00 L&I - BILL 2 identifying, tattooing that -- here's your answer, I give you that one --
Yeah, right, 'cause you guys wasted a whole minutes and you all 8 probably want to go home for dinner. 9 Microchip, you microchip the horses. 10 My dog is microchipped, probably some people's in 11 this room's dogs are microchipped. 12 All you have to do, if you got a 13 regulator guy, you buy him the scanner, he scans 14 the horse -- 15
I have to 16 interrupt you. Everything Councilman Rizzo owns 17 is microchipped -- from all of his toys to 18 everyone he dates. 19 (Laughter.) 20
They can't be falsified, they don't fade, they don't disappear. The only 188 /00 L&I - BILL 2 issue with microchips is, some of them can drift. Typically we microchip horses in the neck area, and these things are the size of a grain of rice. The companies that sell 'em say they're not supposed to migrate, but sometimes they do. So if they migrate to the neck, you scan the entire front of the horse, you get reading. It's the same thing every SPCA in the country uses to identify every dog so that laboratories can't steal 'em, you know, shifty people can't do it. The AKC requires it, so it's real easy. You know, if you have one person that needs to identify the horse, he knows where the scanner is, he gets the scanner, and he scans the horse. You don't have to worry 'cause no one can falsify it.
I forgot to ask that question. I was thinking about the microchip 189 /00 L&I - BILL 2 and --
No. The scanner might -- some of the companies, if you're buying enough chips, they give you the scanner. But maybe it's 50 bucks, 100 bucks.
But the purchase and the implementation of the chip is about how much?
So, you know, if you want to identify these horses with no confusion, no 22 possibility for fraud, there's only one way to go, and that's the technology today. The tattoo thing, it fades. I mean, all the race horses that are tattooed, you can't beat 'em. Then the Arabs 190 /00 L&I - BILL 2 have their brands and they're in different languages, you can't read those. So the microchip is a number, a piece of cake. So that's my recommendation if you're putting that into your --
There's been a wealth of knowledge, thank you. We should have let you come up first, you should have told us.
Well, I tried to interrupt you but, you know, you get that done. So I mean, basically, you know, my opinion is here is that you've got to use common sense when you write this bill, you have to use the track record. And the real key everyone's getting really worked up about is the treatment of the animals, and that's really the key. And if these guys treat 'em well, they'll work well. And they have to treat 'em well or they won't be in business. You know, it doesn't make sense. They can't buy 50 new horses every year. It's too expensive and it's too long to train. It's like running any other business, it's your staff.
Yeah. I think I 191 /00 L&I - BILL 2 can agree with you to a certain degree, but I think there are those out there who may not buy the horses that are in the best condition and just figure they will use that horse until it just dies on them because the investment is not as great.
A good business person who is in it -- no pun intended -- for the long haul, one would say, "I want to buy a horse that is in good condition, take care of that animal to get the most use out of it because it benefits me as a business person."
And not have to deal with all of the City agencies and everybody coming down on me, but recently, we had, I think, the complete opposite of that, where I believe someone may have purchased those -- horses and I don't know this for a fact, but they were probably inexpensive and these horses were probably on their, as they say -- again, not to be 192 /00 L&I - BILL 2 disrespectful -- on their last leg and ran them into the ground and it's just profit, profit, profit, profit. So I guess one of my questions is, when the horses are purchased, who makes the determination, aside from -- is there anyone, aside from the business person, who determines that the horse is in fit shape to be purchased for the purpose of working in that business? Is the City doing any of that? And I see 'em shaking their head no. 13 And I know I'm going to keep hearing these things with bureaucracy, because I just -- I really dislike bureaucracy, but how do we guarantee that? 'Cause I think that's a very valid point, and it goes back to what my opening statement was, which was based on conversations that I had with veterinarians and as recent as Sunday --
It's the care that is probably more paramount than anything else. The issue of temperature, I think, again, we can debate that from here to doomsday, and no one's 193 /00 L&I - BILL 2 ever going to be happy on it, I don't think. But the care is more paramount than anything else. And if you have a well-properly maintained horse who's properly fed and bedded and the conditions that horse lives in are appropriate and adequate, then that horse, obviously, can operate and work longer and in probably more severe conditions than another horse. I mean, it's just like us. I mean, I would be a fool to get out on the Broad Street Run last week 'cause I don't run.
But someone who runs every day and trains for it, the Broad Street Run, I guess, is a cake walk to them.
If I had a suggestion for you, there was a letter written by Dale Schilling, a veterinarian out in Montgomery County, that he apparently -- I think he has the contract with the City for the mounted horses, okay? Now, this -- Dale is a good veterinarian, and you need to find someone like Dale that is going to be your inspector person who is going to come from an objective area and look at these horses and give 194 /00 L&I - BILL 2 them a physical. You guys have to decide what you feel is an adequate amount of surveillance. So, for instance, okay, at the beginning of the season, we want these animals examined -- I mean, we, as veterinarians, write health charts every day of the week. When animals have to ship, they have to have health charts. For horse shows, sometimes they require health charts. So there's formal paperwork that are health chart-type things, that you can say, Okay, Dr. So-and-So comes in, inspects these horses, he knows who they are, they're chipped, they can't go in say this is Horse A and it's really Horse B 'cause they're chipped. Most of the vets probably have scanners anyhow, so it's not a big deal about the scanning issue. And they go and say, This horse is fit. I mean, at Philadelphia Park, every day they race, the horses are examined by veterinarians on the grounds that work for the Racing Commission, and say, These horses are fit to work today and do this race. And the main reason they do that -- you know, everyone thinks 195 /00 L&I - BILL 2 it's for the horse's sake; it's for the jockey's sake. They cannot send that horse out there lame, have him break his leg in the middle of the track, and the jockey goes flying and gets killed. That, obviously, doesn't look good for their industry. So the Racing Commission in Pennsylvania thinks that's a big issue. Of course, it's a big issue for the horse also and the public and the perception. But when it really comes down to legality, dollars and cents, I mean, I worked as a state veterinarian for a period of time, and they said -- my boss told me, "You're protecting these jocks." He goes, "That's your job. If you have a question about a horse going to the post, remember, you're protecting the jock." It's the same thing: the vet would be protecting the tourist, the drivers, and the reputation of the City of Philadelphia. So, you know, I mean, everyone agrees, it's the condition. You just have to establish what you guys feel is fair and what these guys can live up to. And I think that's the direction you need to go. 196 /00 L&I - BILL 2
So, in other words, it is your testimony that the temperature that's in this ordinance is not particularly relevant to this issue.
Yeah. In my opinion, you could pick whatever number you want to pick out of the air. It depends where you live, it depends what the horse has done. The bottom line is, can the animal do it? And, you know, I know you have to pick a temperature. Fifteen years ago, we picked 94, and there a big debate then about it, and they came out with that number. And, again, my point to you is, you've had that number. What has initiated the reason to change it? We don't have these horses scattered all over Philadelphia laying in heat. So what has done it? I mean, and no other industry has a number -- whether it be horse shows, whether it be racing. So it's, like, why would this industry now all of a sudden have a number? 197 /00 L&I - BILL 2
I think it's because it's in everybody's face day in and day out.
And people are wondering, you know, they're sitting there saying, God, it's so hot out today. You know, these poor horses. And most people --
Including myself. I'm just -- I'm still getting an education.
Yeah, and I think you're doing a good job of it 'cause I think the best thing you did this weekend was talking to another veterinarian. You're going to get ten opinions, ten different veterinarians and --
Three doctors give you three different opinions as to whether or not they should operate and stuff like that.
Doctor, I'd like to just move away from the issue of temperature for a moment and talk about something a little more closer to the ground. The Health Department, I believe, has left the shoeing, the condition of the horse's hooves, legs. To me, that's a very important issue, and I don't know how much of a problem that the industry has and whether or not they use horseshoers that are licensed, horseshoers -- I don't even know if there's such a thing. I know at the track, a blacksmith makes the shoe and a horseshoer puts it on, right? Where do we -- how big of a problem, if 199 /00 L&I - BILL 2 any, do we have with the condition of the horse's legs and feet? Because, again, I walk in that area, and I know that the condition of the streets aren't always the best for pedestrians, and I would assume a big hoof like a Belgian horse, that the condition of our city streets is also very important to the industry. How big of a problem do we have with the horse's legs, the shoeing requirements? Could you just comment on that?
First of all, most of these companies use well-experienced farriers. They need to use extremely experienced farriers because they don't need these shoes falling off, so they need people that know what they're doing. Most of the people use are experienced in shoeing carriage horses, not only for the industry, but most of their business would be related to pleasure driving, things like that. So there's a number of farriers in the area that are excellent farriers. The people that I know in the business, a lot of them load the horses up and take 'em out to Lancaster and use farriers out in Lancaster -- 200 /00 L&I - BILL 2 again, because these guys are dealing with the Amish horses and, you know, these guys are on the road all time. So they have special shoes, they have people that know what they're doing. They need to put something on the shoes to -- a lot of them put bohrium --
Which is -- it provides the fact that that shoe isn't going to be worn down in two days. It's not probably the greatest thing for the street, unfortunately, it might chew it up a little bit. But, again, I don't know if that's ever been a major issue or not. But the bottom line is that the people that are --
The ruts that are in the streets. 201 /00 L&I - BILL 2
Exactly. Now, the bottom is, you know, what are the terrains on? The nice thing, it's a flat terrain, so that's an advantage. Obviously, if there's potholes or issues like that, anyone can turn an ankle and potentially come up with a -- like a pulled ligament, something like that. That horse is going to need to be seen by a veterinarian, rested, etc. There are things that will develop in a carriage horse's feet. If you radiograph a carriage horse's feet, you will see a thing called "sidebone," and that is -- in school, when they showed sidebone, they say, "Oh, you see that there? That's sidebone." And they say, "Do you think that was causing lameness in this horse?" They said that it rarely does. So there are some radiographic changes that you'll see on every horse's radiographs. There's certain levels of arthritis -- like all of us are going to have as we age. Is the road any 202 /00 L&I - BILL 2 worse than running out in a soft -- you know, it's there's wear and tear, no matter where these guys work.
Thank you. I'd like to call my next witness, Mr. Basheir Ahmed.
Could you spell his last name or could someone spell the last name.
My name is Basheir Ahmed. My first name B-A-S-H-E-I-R. The last name A-H-M-E-D.
Mr. Ahmed is the owner of Philadelphia Carriage Co. How many years have been operating Philadelphia Carriage Co.?
And during that period of time, have you had experience with this temperature issue? Have you had any horses that 203 /00 L&I - BILL 2 have been negatively affected by temperature?
Well, I don't have any problem with 94 degrees at all, with all my horses. I don't see any horse from other company fell down or pass away or something happen to him in the street.
Now, you're familiar with the hours of operation that are proposed by this ordinance. If those hours of operation were put into effect, what effect would that have on your company?
Those hours exactly fit the new regulation, just put us out of business 100 percent.
And so then people 20 would lose their jobs at that point, under these 21 regulations, under these hours. 22
The hours are 3 o'clock 204 /00 L&I - BILL 2 from until 7 o'clock. That's most time we get more tourists to the City, we get more ride.
Do you also between 5 and 12 o'clock at night and on weekends? 6
Now, do you rotate these horses, or does one horse work the whole day or does he go back to the stable? Or how does it work?
The horse work during the day is different. Another horse during the night. Is different horse, not the same horse.
So, now, during the year, do you put these horses out to pasture for a period of time? 205 /00 L&I - BILL 2
We do 'em in the wintertime, we (unintelligible) the horses in Lancaster. We take a few of them, we return them to the field in (unintelligible).
I'm having trouble with the hours of operation there. If you rotate the hours and the maximum horse could be out -- the arithmetic doesn't work. How could a horse be out a maximum of 10 hours and you rotate it?.
No. The horse from, like, 206 /00 L&I - BILL 2 9:30, 10 o'clock in the morning go in, go to stable back around o'clock. And the other horse 4 can go out -- different horse -- from 7 until 12 5 o'clock.
So even though you rotate them, a horse -- one horse that's rotated could be out a maximum of ten hours.
Could be. But in other words, you could rotate then so that there would be shorter hours.
And most of the time, really, the horses, when they go out from 10 o'clock to 5 o'clock, they're not all constantly on rides; they take a rest in between rides and the other. Not all the time they really working; they take a rest in between.
So some of those horses 207 /00 L&I - BILL 2 are standing and not being used.
You never change horses on location, do you? In other words, you never would unharness a horse on the street and put them --
So you wouldn't bring a fresh horse down at the carriage and take the harness off the horse, you would never do that, right?
I'd like to call 208 /00 L&I - BILL 2 Councilman Tayoun to speak about some of the background of this legislation. (James Tayoun comes forward.)
You never thought you'd be back talking about horses again, right?
Yeah. My name is James Tayoun, T-A-Y-O-U-N. Mr. Chairman, I have to -- well the chairman's gone, but I have to congratulate the chairman and I have to congratulate the author of the legislation for really digging in as deeply as you have and trying to do things. But I'd like to call to your attention that the major problem both companies that have testified before you face is the fact of lowering the temperature, which could be an arbitrary situation. It does impede their ability to earn a living because of the way Philadelphia weather changes from moment to moment. And the other one is the hours of operation. In my history and your history as Councilpeople of this district, we understand that people are always complaining about something with the carriage companies. But in reality, the good 209 /00 L&I - BILL 2 that they do outweighs the problems that people have to suffer. Most of us have to share in keeping a tradition like this alive, which is good for us. And we all have to bite the bullet. But I'd also like to call your attention, you might not know about it, but the carriage company that really hit the headlines and created a lot of problems for you as the Councilman and for the Councilpeople and for the carriage companies was the problem created by a landlord fighting with the carriage owner over rents, and the horses could not be reached by the owner because the stable owner -- the horse owner could not take care of his horses because the stable owner wouldn't let him in for two weeks, maybe three weeks. And I remember going to a hearing and discussing this with health people, but now I understand that the judge has ordered those horses back to the original owner, and they're going someplace else, so they're going to probably be around and under very intense scrutiny by your committee as well, but I think everything will be back to -- 210 /00 L&I - BILL 2
But I wonder if it was only two weeks that they couldn't get to those horses. Those horses looked like they were abused a lot longer than two weeks.
Well, you were there and I wasn't, so I go with your judgment.
I go with your judgment, Mr. Councilman, and I want to thank you very much for testifying.
Councilman DiCicco, I'd like to hand up some petitions that only were done in the last three days of 350 citizens who appreciate the availability of the carriage ride the and importance of those carriages to Philadelphia. 211 /00 L&I - BILL 2 And in conclusion, I would like to say that with all the testimony you've heard today, there is obviously a humane aspect that we're all concerned with. But on the other hand, we also have a business that we need to consider, and there needs to be a balancing here. The hours that are shown in this present ordinance would put these companies out of business. The temperature also has an impact on the companies 'cause it just reduces the number of days in which they can operate. They still have the overhead. The overhead does not go away, and so there are there are the business considerations as well. And I thank you very much for affording us this time to make a presentation.
Thank you. And I certainly, I guess am speaking on behalf of the other members of the committee, that we have -- I think they have been more enlightened about it today. I have to some degree, but I've been working on this for a couple of years. And I do understand that when we're asking the industry to abide by maybe more 212 /00 L&I - BILL 2 stringent regulations, in effect, we are reducing the hours that they can work, which means reducing the income, but yet we're imposing other restrictions that are going to require them to have more output in terms of dollars. So we're paid to try to make some decisions that -- and, again, as I said at the onset, I think this is one where not everyone will get 100 percent of what they want, and I'm sure a lot of people will walk away upset, but we're paid to do this, so we will mull over this for the next -- I'm not sure what the date is. Do we have a date? It will be at the call of the Chair. I didn't close the hearing yet, but is there anyone else here who wishes to testify? I believe the lady in the back does? And I think what we really need to do, whatever the final draft of the legislation is to the owners who are here today, who are the most responsible owners, and everyone has agreed upon that, is when we say in the legislation that you're not to be on Race Street between the hours of 4 and 6 p.m., we mean it. You know, we can't keep making excuses. So I think there's a whole 213 /00 L&I - BILL 2 educational process that needs to be encouraged from the owners of these companies with the operators or the drivers of these carriages. I don't think anything we can do today, whether we got everything in there that everybody agreed on is going to make a difference unless somebody wakes up and says that we are going to begin the enforcement, and I think we really will begin to do the enforcement, and that we mean business on our part. And people have to just be more responsible out there. And if they were -- I mean, I'll give you an example. I sent the letter off to all of the companies back in September -- and I think spoke about this a little bit earlier -- advising them with a copy of the letter from the Park Service that they had up until October 30th or 31st of 1999 to renew, and I got a response, I think, from one or two. And that's not the right way. My job isn't too notify them, but I was trying to say, All you're doing is feeding into the opposition, or to the people who are against what you're doing by ignoring everything. You 214 /00 L&I - BILL 2 can't ignore 'em. I have a constituency out there, in addition to the business community, who reside in those communities, and they pay the highest real-estate taxes in the City of Philadelphia, and they have issues when a carriage is going up their street the wrong way, or the carriage guy is blocking traffic and shouldn't be out there when the regs say you shouldn't be there. 'Cause they look to me, they look to me for, Well, how do you allow this to happen. Councilman? And, you know, I don't want to be on -- I mean, there are always exceptions to the rule, there's always an excuse, and you say, Well, I just left, you know, a group of people off and I'm on my way back. But I know. I mean, I'm a street guy and I know what goes on out there.
Let me finish. They just want to continue -- for the most part, from what I've seen, is there are a certain group of people out there that just want to ignore that, and I've asked the questions. When I'm on Market Street on a Friday evening at 5 o'clock traveling 215 /00 L&I - BILL 2 east and the carriage is in the left-hand lane, traveling east, and cars and buses are trying to get past, that's a dangerous situation. We talk about road rage. I mean, it's amazing, and I've said this before, that it's amazing that nothing more serious has happened. And I'll ask the question, you know, What are you here for? I got this big City car, you know, with an emblem on it, for whatever that means, and I say, "Why are you out here?" You know, and I'm being told things or I get hand signals and, you know, that certainly doesn't sit well with me because I don't want them to go away, I don't want it to go away. I want it to work. But there are regulations and I implore everybody who's listening that whatever we come out with in the next week or two, they are going to be the regulations, and we do mean business. We're not going to be playing around. Thank you. Do you have something else to say?
Yeah. After I got your letter, we tried to make appointment with you to see you. We couldn't have a chance.
I know what you're saying, but understand, having an appointment with me doesn't take away from the fact that you had to renew your license someplace else. I don't control that; that's the Park Service.
No, no. I'm talking about why when we get the letter, we try to explain to you our side, but nobody answers.
But a license was required by the Park Service. Whether you came to see me or not was not going to dismiss the fact that you had to have a license. I understand that you were going to speak to me about the fee structure and how much of an imposition financially it was to you, but I don't make the regulations for the Park Service, I don't do the licensing there. You know, you could have seen me twenty times in that two-week period, but you still had to go to the Park Service to get a license. 217 /00 L&I - BILL 2 But thank you for coming today.
Thank you. Is there anyone else here wishes to testify? Yes, ma'am, please come forward. (Witnesses come forward.
Hi. I'm going to make it short. My name is Violet Aharonian.
Okay. I am going to testify altogether different than what I had in mind simply because there's a conflict of statistics here -- mine versus theirs. So if this session is going to go into next week, then I will have my statistics.
No, what will happen is, this hearing will be -- we will end this hearing, we will go into the public meeting, 218 /00 L&I - BILL 2 and that will be the final decision by the committee as to whether there are amendments, does the bill get passed, and it's --
Okay. Address it to the Chair of the committee, Councilman Mariano, and he will see that all members of the committee get a copy of your testimony.
And one of his staff members is giving you this information.
Okay. In the meantime, I wanted to say -- several of you Councilman asked, had any horses died on the streets? I have 219 /00 L&I - BILL 2 something here, which I wrote to the Daily News back in '95, I think it is, and they gave my letter a beautiful exposure, except for one thing -- I told them that two recent horses had recently died, that two carriage horses had recently died in New York, and I put the dates, but for whatever reason, they left it out. They had edited it -- they left it word for word except that they removed the dates.
Now, you know what we go through so don't believe everything you read about what they say that we said.
Okay, okay. The only thing they removed were the two dates that the horses died on the streets of New York.
We have had incidences here in Philadelphia where Philadelphia police horses have died on the street.
We have Philadelphia police horses that were involved in accidents and 220 /00 L&I - BILL 2 had died, so I just want to make sure you understand that just because two horses --
Yeah, but what I'm getting at is, I don't know of any carriage horses that died. We've had some police horses that have been injured and died in the line of duty in the City of Philadelphia. So it's not just exclusive to the carriage-horse industry.
Oh, absolutely, I understand that. Now, I wanted to say one thing, which is not -- it's not about a carriage horse, but it's recent, it just came out from Eric Hendricks, a picture of a horse -- not a carriage horse -- who -- where a cherry bomb up on Erie Avenue exploded. The horse bucked or whatever -- bolted, the horse bolted and dropped dead. That can happen on Market Street, Chestnut Street or Walnut Street. Have you ever looked in the eyes of -- I live way out of town, I don't even live in Philadelphia but I drop a lot of money in 221 /00 L&I - BILL 2 Philadelphia. I knew I'd get the head shake. Let me ask you something. After late in the evening, have you ever looked into the eyes of a carriage horse? Trust me, do it one day unless you want to -- I beg your pardon?
Your vernacular is so subtle. Believe me, it's sad. And I love animals, horses, whatever. But when you look in the eyes of these carriage horses, why -- let me ask you, why is it that some cities have banned them entirely altogether? They have banned carriage horses and there are cities whose temperature they have dropped down as low as 85. Now, that's not a lot of statistics but that I know for a fact. But we -- we don't even need carriage horses here. We have -- I know you don't want to hear it, but we have money coming in the billions annually. Why do we have to depend on carriage 222 /00 L&I - BILL 2 horses for an income to the City of Philadelphia, why? A lot of cities have banned carriage horses, a lot. Not one two, three, or four, a lot. And the ones which have not banned carriage horses have temperature ratings as low as 85 degrees. And then with these ball bearings, if they're so great, why don't they pull 'em themselves? (Laughter.)
If they're so great, hey, I would do it, only I have four metal rods in my back.
I don't think the carriage horse -- I think there's something -- when I went to New York a few years ago, I know one of the things that I wanted to do was --
I think that it's beyond just riding in a carriage, I think there's something about being drawn by a horse that's -- it's romantic, it's all of the things that people like to do and they don't do it every day of their life. They come from a town or a place that doesn't have carriages or horses, and people are 223 /00 L&I - BILL 2 excited about it. And I think it adds something to the City. I can't imagine that you think that they should be banned.
No, if were up to me, we would have no -- then, in that case, you can argue with all the other cities which have banned carriage horses and --
Wait till you see my ayes around 10 o'clock 'cause I have a community meeting after this. (Laughter.)
Can I just say one more thing? I think it went over your heads. These ball bearings, if they're so great, I would pull it myself but I have four metal rods in my back so I don't think I'd be very good at it.
Thank you. Thank you for your testimony. Thank you for waiting.
Sir, if you want 224 /00 L&I - BILL 2 to speak, you have to come up to the table. (Witnesses come forward.)
Good afternoon. Please identify yourself for the record.
My name is Jason Metivier. That's M-E-T-I-V-I-E-R. I'm not currently a carriage driver; I'm a trainee with the Philadelphia Carriage Company. And I got the job after I had heard about the problems with the other carriage companies. And I have two roommates -- I live in Philadelphia, and I have two roommates who are vegans, they're animal activists, they're vegetarians. And when I told them that I had an interest in this job, they were sickened, they were pretty mad at me.
No, no, I'm still a roommate. The thing I told them, the reason I wanted the job, I figured if every carriage 225 /00 L&I - BILL 2 company in the City was as bad as this one or two that were making the headlines, that I would be the one good driver, I would be the one nice guy, I would be the one guy who, like, gave a damn about the horses or whatever. I was wrong. I'm not the one nice guy. I go out in the street every day training and I see people who really, really care about these horses. They see their horse break a sweat, their horse gets water. They see a horse that, you know, needs to be in the shade, the horse goes in the shade. I just see people caring about animals. I don't see slave drivers working the horses, whipping them into a trot. I see people slowing down the horses. And I just felt that someone who actually has cared about the animals, that they should get up here and say something.
Thank you, and I know you've been here all day so I appreciate you sticking around. Thank you. Please identify yourself for the record.
Yeah. My name is Jennifer 226 /00 L&I - BILL 2 Taylor, and I work for Philadelphia Carriage Company. And I would just like to say that I would never work for company that was cruel to their horses, and I ride horses and I love horses. And the horse that I drive I love, and I would never --
Did you ever work in the carriage industry before that?
No. I never would because I thought that it was, you know, cruel to horses -- until I actually went down and I got the job and realized that they weren't cruel to the horses.
Thank you. Any questions for these witnesses? (No questions.)
Is there anyone else here who wishes to testify? (No response.)
This concludes today's hearing, which will be recessed to the call of the Chair. We don't have a date for you yet but, apparently, Councilman Mariano's assistant tells me it will probably the last week in May. You will be notified. And that will give us enough time to vote the bill out of committee and have some finality to the bill by the end of the session, June 22nd. (Adjourned at 6:00 p.m.) - - - 228 C E R T I F I C A T E I HEREBY CERTIFY that the foregoing proceedings of the Council of the City of Philadelphia of Thursday, May 11, 2000, were reported fully and accurately by me, and that this is a correct transcript of same. RE: COUNCIL COMMITTEE ON LICENSES and INSPECTIONS BILL NO. 000217 __________________________________, JOSEPHINE CARDILLO, Registered Professional Reporter