Not to interrupt you, but tell me a little bit about the low end of this scale.
Okay, I was going to get that and I didn't do a lit search on that. I will tell you that horses tend to be more cold-tolerant than we are. So their tolerant schedule is shifted down from ours. A concern that everyone has and the City should have as well is human incidents, and I will say that in cooler weather, in order to maintain their body temperature, horses become more active, they get a little frisky. I think you should concern yourself a little bit about horses being a little more inclined to become frisky and get accidents at the colder 115 /00 L&I - BILL 2 temperatures. There was discussion here earlier about perhaps doing away with the wind chill, and there was some information on the news that they are going to change the wind chill factor structure. So I think I would agree, perhaps, with just going with the straight temperature scale. The other thing, though, about temperature is that it also depends on it not being severely windy and it not being damp or wet. Horses can be blanketed in --
That's with wind chill. I 116 /00 L&I - BILL 2 would say a straight 30, 32 would be fine -- would be okay, as long as the horses are in condition, not underweight, and it's not wet out. Rain, snow is going to impact on that really severely.
Doctor, thanks for coming today. Is there anything that the carriage trade industry could do on the hotter days while the horses are in the staging area? Is it realistic to give a horse a sponging-down, give 'em a little bucket of water over the head, a little hosing? You know, is there anything that they could do?
It's a large volume of water is what they need and a total body soaking, and that's not going to be good with the harness on. You don't want to soak the horse and then have it sitting under the harness. And, again, we're not talking about a sponge bath; we're talking about a hose and gallons and gallons of water. Dumping water on the head absolutely would not be adequate to cool them down. 117 /00 L&I - BILL 2
Thank you. All right, any other questions here? (No further questions.)
Okay. I don't know if you want my research paper or not, but I've got it.
Thank you. Anything you have, give us and we'll put it in the record -- unless you want to keep going.
My name is Tina Nelson. I'm the Executive Director of the American Anti-Vivisection Society. Thank you for the opportunity to speak today on this important issue, the care of carriage horses in the City of Philadelphia. As I said, I'm Tina Nelson, Executive Director of AAVS, which is located in Jenkintown, 118 /00 L&I - BILL 2 PA. AAVS is an international nonprofit animal protection organization, which was founded in Philadelphia in 1883. We're the oldest animal protection organization in the United States and have a membership which spans the globe. Because our national office is located in the Philadelphia area, we have a large number of members in the City and in the surrounding region. I am here to represent our board of managers and members who are very concerned about the care of carriage horses. Although AAVS would like to see the City Council ban the carriage-horse industry from the City of Philadelphia, I appreciate the fact that Council is willing to revise the existing ordinance to bring Philadelphia's care of carriage horses up to the standard of many cities and make conditions for these animals more humane. I respectfully request the following revisions be made to the horse carriage ordinance: Horses must not be worked when temperatures are above 89 degrees Fahrenheit or below 32 degrees Fahrenheit. Blankets must be provided for horses at 119 /00 L&I - BILL 2 32 degrees Fahrenheit. Horses must not be in harness for more than 8 hours in one day. Stables must be inspected at least every six months by a licensed large-animal veterinarian. No carriage is to be operated before 9:30 a.m. and between 4 p.m. to 6 p.m. due to the stress on horses in heavy traffic, as well as safety issues. Improved enforcement by the City of the ordinance and regulations and more severe penalties for noncompliance. In closing, I would like to thank City Council and all agencies involved for closing the stables that were in poor conditions and where horses have not received humane treatment. As we all know, the care and respect we show for animals is a direct reflection about our society and how we treat others. I urge City Council to make these revisions for the horses and provide strict enforcement of the regulations so we can set an example for those who visit this wonderful city. Thank you. 120 /00 L&I - BILL 2
Hello. I'm Roberta Spivek. I'm the Chair of the Carriage Action Alliance, a group of Philadelphia residents and taxpayers concerned about the treatment of Philadelphia's carriage horses. I got involved in this when I moved to Society Hill about five years ago, where I rent an apartment. I don't own a car, so I ride the bus, and when I wait for the bus almost every day at Sixth and Spruce Street, I can't avoid seeing these horses. So for me, it's become an issue. I got involved with it because it's there every day in my neighborhood. I'd like to thank you for holding these hearings today. I'm not an equine expert or veterinarians but an ordinary citizen who has been sickened by watching these horses forced to pull heavily-loaded carriages through Philadelphia's brutal summer heat ant humidity, breathing in SEPTA and car exhaust fumes for ten hours a day 121 /00 L&I - BILL 2 every day, all summer long. We support the proposed changes to the ordinance, which would bring Philadelphia more in compliance with the Humane Society guidelines. I've attached to my testimony a letter from Dr. Ellen Buck of the Humane Society supporting those changes and also a letter from Mayor Street supporting the Humane Society guidelines. In three areas, we would like to propose changes to be stronger. First, in terms of the proposed 90 degree maximum temperature, we urge the committee to instead adopt the Humane Society's recommended heat index of 150, which takes humidity into account. Failing that, the maximum temperature should be 89 degrees Fahrenheit. Second, the horses must be in harness no more than nine hours a day. Finally, we would like much more stringent stable-inspection requirement than have been proposed. Given the egregious violations recently found in the stables of two of the carriage companies and the failure of the SPCA and the City to catch those violations, we feel that 122 /00 L&I - BILL 2 twice-yearly inspections are inadequate. Instead, we call for monthly unannounced inspections so that violations will not take six months to be discovered. I understand that the carriage owners are concerned about the impact on their business. I believe that impact would be minimal. Even if it is not, operating a business in the City of Philadelphia should not give anyone license to operate in an inhumane or unsafe manner. Restaurants could make more money if they didn't have to follow strict health ordinances, builders could build more quickly if they didn't have to follow stringent worker-safety guidelines. Profits in the carriage trade should not come by squeezing the life blood out of these animals. Animals are not just a source of cash; they are sentient beings who feel pain and suffering and who rely on us to protect them. We recognize that a lot of work has gone on in bringing us to this point, and we urge City Council to hire Dr. Ellen Buck equine veterinarian Dr. Holly Cheever or another carriage horse equine expert to help work out any changes 123 /00 L&I - BILL 2 to the final ordinance so that it can be introduced to Council immediately. These changes should and must be adopted by the beginning of this summer. With Philadelphia in the national spotlight during the Republican Convention, City Council has a clear choice to continue to allow Philadelphia to operate its carriage trade under the worst humane conditions in the nation under the eyes of the national press and in the face of likely protests and tourist leafletting by animal-rights groups, or to make our trade a model for the nation, as Randall Hirschhorn of the Department of Environmental Services has urged. I believe the choice is clear. Thank you.
Thank you. Thank you for your testimony. Please state your -- identify yourself for the record.
Hello. I'm David Cantor. I'm the East Coast Field Representative of the Animal Protection Institute. Thank you for the opportunity to 124 /00 L&I - BILL 2 mention concerns about the use of horses to pull carriages in Philadelphia. The Animal Protection Institute has about 500 members in Philadelphia and thousands throughout the area. I'm the East Coast Field Representative, and I've been researching animal-related issues for about years, since I 9 started working full-time for national animal 10 Advocacy organizations in 1989. I learned about 11 the horse carriage industry several years ago when I took part in the effort to ban carriage horses from Washington, DC. Strong public support for the ban showed that many people had learned of the suffering of horses used to pull carriages, that horses do not belong in automobile traffic, and that a carriage ride in today's cities reveals nothing about history. A haunting image that I hope does not occur in Philadelphia or anywhere else, but is probably just a matter of time, was in a photograph taken in New York City. A horse lay helpless on a city street after being hit by a car. With part of his intestines lying outside of his body, he was still alive and conscious, his 125 /00 L&I - BILL 2 one visible eye wide open and bulging out of his head in pain and terror. As long as horse carriages are permitted in Philadelphia, API supports the strictest possible regulations. The proposed amendments to the Philadelphia Code that the committee is kind enough to consider here today will make significant improvements to the well-being of the horses, help prevent the worst suffering, and improve public safety. m. m. Would diminish risk and stress on horses due to heavy traffic and help prevent terrible accidents. Anyone who seeks to ride on a horse-drawn carriage on city streets can do so at other times, and one hopes will not blame the City Council for depriving them of rush-hour carriage rides. Like other animals, horses are very much affected by extreme temperatures. In summer, asphalt temperatures can become 50 degrees or more hotter than the air. Human beings sitting in the shade are going from one air-conditioned building 126 /00 L&I - BILL 2 to another, walking on less heat-absorbent concrete may not appreciate the plight of horses kept on the street all day. API would like to see the maximum temperature for horses pulling carriages lowered as much as possible. Eighty-nine degrees Fahrenheit, as has been proposed, would be a step in the right direction. The industry's wish to use horses as much time as possible should not be given higher priority than the physical health needs of horses who cannot tell the carriage drives or passersby how miserable they feel and will work till they drop if forced to, as has in fact happened. As you can see in the letter you received from API's veterinarian, Jean Hofve, we do not want horses to be in harness or at work for more than 8 hours a day. A limit of 9 hours in harness would be a great improvement over 12 in harness, including time to and from work, with 10 horses at work. Imagine how you would feel if you were forced to perform a strenuous physical task in hot weather while breathing in huge amounts of car exhaust, with long interludes standing still on hot streets, wearing oppressive and irritating 127 /00 L&I - BILL 2 equipment. Surely you would be very glad for a 10 percent reduction in your work day and a 25 percent reduction of time in cumbersome gear. Frequent inspections are a must for horses' living conditions and health, as indicated by the recent unfortunate revelations of appalling conditions at a Philadelphia stable. Two inspections per year will help prevent neglect from taking as terrible a toll on the animals as would occur with no strict inspection regiment. Inspections should be unannounced and should not become predictable to stable managers.
Animal industries typically claim to give animals excellent care without regulation because, they say, profits are higher when animals are well-cared for. Time after time, in industry after industry, this is proven false. Abuse and neglect go far beyond cutting corners in animal industries. As was recently demonstrated in Philadelphia, that can easily happen in the carriage industry too. The same is true for human safety. Carriage passengers lack protection in the event of accidents. The requested improvement carriage regulations will help protect human 128 /00 L&I - BILL 2 beings as well as horses. Please write the proposed amendments into law. The horses, API members, and countless other people will appreciate your thoughtfulness as it is well established that animals, including horses, are thinking, feeling beings, and exploiting them produces an enormous burden of responsibility to ensure their well-being and their enjoyment of their short but valuable lives. Thank you very much for considering my comments, and I'll be glad to answer any questions you may have.
Any questions for this witness from the committee? (No questions.)
Seeing none, let's go to the next panel. Leslie, did you want to testify? I called you before.
Leslie Fleisher, and I'm on the Mayor's Animal Advisory Committee.
Just to clarify, Councilman Mariano, I served in two administrations, I didn't know either mayor but still got on the committee.
Okay. Listen, I didn't know Councilman Ortiz was on it and he sits across the hall from me.
I'm also on the Philadelphia and Pennsylvania State Representative for the Animal Legal Defense Fund, and from that perspective, all I want to add is that we echo what's going on here, but we're handling it more on a national level. You've had excellent testimony here today. You've gotten a lot of information, and all I want to Council keep in mind is, when you go 130 /00 L&I - BILL 2 back to deliberate, you have a lot of interests to balance -- not only community interests, not only the humane aspect, but you're looking at business owners, and you have the onerous job of making everybody happy. And Councilman DiCicco as already said that's not going to happen, but I am confident that you're going to go back and do your best --
-- to support all the interests. So I hope you have get a good result. I really don't have anything else to add.
Seeing none, we'll get another group up here. John Roblonski, Edward M. Goldsmith, Michael Slocum. Did Violet testify? How anybody that hasn't testified? Mike, come on. (Witnesses come forward.) 131 /00 L&I - BILL 2
My name is Laura Homer. I do the testing of the drivers since the onset of the program, and I've been testing most of the drivers that are presently driving in the City of Philadelphia.
Now, help me here, I'm not trying to be funny, but do you test them for drugs?
They do several things. First, they're tested on their ability to take care of the horse, harness the horse, and put 'em to the carriage. Then they're tested on their driving ability, they're asked several questions. It's a form given by the City. And then they get a temporary license, and later on, the City sends them a permanent license.
And I've been -- myself, I've been driving probably longer than anyone in this room, I've been driving for 52 years and I've had carriages ever since -- not commercial carriages, I do private -- I mean, I just have my own carriages. And I've also been a judge for the last years. I judge carriages all over the 15 country and give clinics, and so I'm very familiar 16 with the driving industry. 17 First of all, I have to disagree with 18 some of these comments that were made today 19 because these are draft animals, or draft-type 20 animal, that are used for this. They're bred to 21 work. I mean, this is what they're bred for. 22 They only walk; they don't do anything else. They 23 walk and stand, and that is not strenuous on any 24 horses. I mean, if you see other horse in other 25 horse industries, they work hard. I don't care if 133 /00 L&I - BILL 2 it's for two minutes. A race horse only goes two minutes, but they work hard those two minutes and that's far harder than these horses standing in harness all day. Another thing --
I mean, these aren't like race horses at the end of their careers?
Oh, definitely not. These are called "workhorses," and workhorses bred to work. I mean, that's there only purpose.
I'm embarrassed to say I've probably have been on or near a horse except for the ones I ride by, so these are the big horses.
Yes, big horses. Riding or driving a carriage horse -- you know, a carriage horse, not the ones that work in the City, are much smaller-built horses. They're all breeds, but they are smaller-built than these horses that work in the cities. They're huge horses, and a 134 /00 L&I - BILL 2 huge horse like that will sweat more standing in the stable than they will standing on the street. If you see them on the street, you know, while they're waiting for a ride, they're not sweating, there's no sweat there. And they're given all the water they want, there's no problem. When they're in the stables, you'll see them -- a horse sweats like a person, you know, they perspire -- not like a dog where they pant.
Well some of us Councilpeople don't sweat. I won't tell you which ones. (Laughter.)
But if you look up here, you'll see who's not sweating.
Right. Let me see what else I have. You can't compare them with other breeds of horses for sure.
They also get time off every week, they have a day or two off every week, and then they're given usually two months out of 135 /00 L&I - BILL 2 the year where they're turned out to pasture to re -- just to have a good time. So they're not working 365 days a year, like some people think. And also, these carriages that they pull, they're on ball bearings and they pull -- you can -- I can pull them, I have no trouble pulling 'em. And they're all on ball bearings and they pull very, very easily.
Oh, really? Well, we pull them to put -- turn them around, bring 'em in, bring 'em out. And, really, there is no weight to them. And they all have a full fifth wheel, which means they can spin around on a dime. I mean, there's a -- they have a wonderful turning basis. And all the streets are basically flat, and so it's much easier for a horse to pull a carriage on a street than it is on dirt. Dirt is deep and it digs in, the wheels dig in and it's twice as hard pulling. I mean, I do both and, believe me, the street driving is a lot easier.
Just a little piece of information -- bear with me. You don't 136 /00 L&I - BILL 2 work for any City areas?
Oh. But do you work for one of these private concerns?
But you just do this -- you do this as a living or is this a hobby?
I was appointed. This was approved by the City of Philadelphia, I was approved by the City of Philadelphia with my credentials, when they first started this licensing. 137 /00 L&I - BILL 2
Mr. Hirschhorn, would you please enlighten us here? 'cause I'm having a problem trying to figure this out. (Mr. Hirschhorn returns to witness table.)
You had me until you told me you were going to pull that carriage around because I can't see myself --
Again, for the record, Randall Hirschhorn, Director of Environmental Health Services. There is a requirement in the current regulations that horse-carriage operators must demonstrate proficiency in tacking the horse, driving the horse, and in common safety procedures.
And since we have no 13 one in City service, we had asked the Police Department Mounted Unit if they would be the examiners, and they said that because they ride horses, they don't have a proficiency, though, in carriage-horse operations. So we went to independent people and got their credentials, showed it to the horse advisory person on the Animal Advisory Committee to make sure that she felt that they were adequate in terms of their credentials. We provided the names of the individuals to the carriage companies so that they could employ them to test their drivers, and we provide the forms. 139 /00 L&I - BILL 2
So there's more than one. If I own a carriage company, I can call her or a couple of other people?
Also, I beg to differ, but the Health Department has experience with all the carriage companies, not just several. And I can tell you that horses are not turned out by all the companies. I wish they were, I wish they would follow the example that's set by Mr. Slocum, but they do not. And these horses are not rested weekly, they are not rested and turned out to pasture. So some owner are conscientious and do that, and others don't even file their teeth or change their horse shoes.
I summed it up but everybody didn't like the word I used. There was -- what did I say? and I don't have to say it again -- the good guy, the middle, and the derogatory statement I used for the last two, but Mark McDonald's writing an article about it 'cause 140 /00 L&I - BILL 2 I used that word.
I believe I was referring to the two top stables that we're talking about, yes.
How do you know -- how do you qualify that statement that you just made that you know that these horses -- are you -- how do you monitor that? You made a very positive statement that these horses, just by -- because they're thin, because of their appearance, or are you just speculating that they're not turned out?
No, we're not speculating. We've talked to their drivers, the City has investigators who have also talked to some of the drivers and we've asked them to produce records.
Whoever keeps records of when you turn a horse out to pasture?
Well, they have to 141 /00 L&I - BILL 2 take it to a farm, they have to pay a fee for that, and it's an accounting practice in a business that if you're going to pay a fee, it's part of your business, that you pay those receipts. Now, the good companies have no trouble verifying. The other companies, if they claim that they do this, their drivers say that the horses are never out of the City and they can't produce any proof to show, then it has to be our conclusion that those horses are not turned out.
I don't mean to be argumentive (sic), but do you think a cab driver knows if the oil's been changed in the cab?
Not if he owns it, if he's driving it. Mr. Slocum, Councilman DiCicco's suggesting -- I just don't want a statement to be made here that suggests that other operators don't do -- maybe they don't, but we have no way to qualify that statement. How do you do it? 142 /00 L&I - BILL 2
We, in fact, send our horses probably a good solid two months out of the year, and in some horses, it may be as much as four months out of the year, go to a turnout. We have an 18-acre farm that we do not own. However, we work with the individuals who own the farm, the horses are turned out. Certain horses go out over summer months, certain horses are turned out over the fall-winter season. In fact, the majority of our horses are turned out over the winter months. When the business subsides for the winter season, we turn them out. I can obviously document that through the owners of the farm, the facility, through paid documents on work bills. We pay a fee per day per horse to have these horses turned out in Lancaster County.
Well, in the wintertime, it's the most -- is not the most desirable time to turn a horse out.
They don't need grass. What they do is, they feed them hey, they 143 /00 L&I - BILL 2 supplement them with hay, and they're turned out on the farm. In fact. That's the best time for these horses to be turned out. They get to move around, they get more exercise and activity. And prior to -- despite any beliefs, I believe that the best conditions for these horses is to be out in the elements and be out -- we have a section of our stable, which is actually like a lean-to shed, and that is the optimal conditions for us, where they are constantly in the atmospheric environment, whether it be with the temperature, humidity, the heat, the cold, whatever, so that they don't experience the extremes, which, I think, humans misinterpret. As we sit in this controlled environment here and we go to walk out on a 94-degree day and hit the street, it appears to us to be very hot, but someone like myself, who tends to work outside and enjoys outdoor activities, I could work outside at 94 or 100 degrees all day long. In fact, I thrive on that; I prefer not to do it in the cold.
Well, obviously, if that's what you do, that's why today you've been 144 /00 L&I - BILL 2 recognized as being one of the better or the best operator in the carriage-horse industry, so that's very commendable that you do that.
Well, I appreciate that, and I wish that everyone would do this, obviously. However, what I feel strongly about is that there has to be a stable management program, which addresses all of these issues. And when we do that, or if we can do that, and address the everyday care of the animal, not just days when 12 it's 94 degrees, but 365 days a year, you know, 13 24/7, that's what will improve the overly quality 14 of way that horse looks and what that horse can do 15 when he's out on the street.
Thank you. Any more questions? (No further questions.)
Okay. Josh, you want to testify? Michael, you want to testify?
Thank you. My name is Michael Slocum. I'm the President of 76 Carriage Company. And all I want to say is that I've been in and around business, the horse-drawn carriage 145 /00 L&I - BILL 2 industry, since 1975, going on some 24 years. Our reputation for sound business practices and operating standards are nationally known throughout the industry. And I want to, I guess, spare you all of the introduction that I have. I would like to address certain issues, specific issues of the legislation, which I feel need to be amended or remain the same. On the issues of the hours that the horse currently operate, it is proposed that carriages will be banned operated from 7 to 9:30 a.m. What we propose is that the carriages are banned from operating on City streets between the hours of 7 and 9 a.m., except with the issuing of a permit, which may be obtained from the Department of Streets, with five days' prior notice. We also propose that the ban on carriages between 3:30 and 6 p.m. be made to read that "carriages between the hours of 4 and 6 p.m. must adhere to approved carriage routes only and may not deviate from those routes, except under such permit granted by the Department of Streets." This would curtail all carriage 146 /00 L&I - BILL 2 activities within a certain restricted area and not greatly prohibit the revenue, the inconvenience to tourists or the inconvenience to the employees who are trying to make a living by doing this type of business. The proposed o'clock -- 9 p.m. we 8 suggest be 12 midnight. Again, for us to employ 9 people and to survive in this industry, to obtain such drastic cutbacks on our operational hours would cause us substantial decreases in revenue. We would not be able to obtain employees to work between the hours of 9:30 and 3 o'clock in the afternoon, which is not a significant amount of time to be able to pay someone for a period or generate enough revenue for that; and, certainly, we cannot ask them to stay around until 6 p.m. to go back out on the street and only work until 9 p.m. We also employ people who work for us in the evening hours, and a lot of times, these carriages go out at 6 p.m. in the evening and will work until midnight to satisfy the demands of the casual tourist, leisure tourist, local Philadelphians, as well as prearranged groups and 147 /00 L&I - BILL 2 bookings. We propose that these be year-round ordinances, with no exceptions based on the time of year, month, day, except for Saturday and Sunday. We ask that there be no regulations or restrictions on Saturday and Sunday. We understand that there are traffic issues and real issues that are at the heart of this regulation; however, Saturdays and Sundays we feel we should be exempt from such regulations and restrictions, and they are peak operating days for this industry to provide such a service for the visitorship, ridership, and the tours industry.
Yes. As far the Department of Health and -- the Public Department of Health and the Streets Department to provide a waste-management program, we certainly agree with this system. I understand that there's a real need and concerns about the issues on the streets. However, we hope that we could be involved in drafting this system that we can implement, as well as our concerns are 148 /00 L&I - BILL 2 addressed as far as the cost of these issues go. I certainly would not like to have a system in place that would be so monetarily heavily imposed upon us that it would make it not conducive for us to operate. By the way, the National Park Service did regulate us at one point, and we were obligated to clean the carriage stands designated on Chestnut Street, and it was on a rotation basis then, where each company had a month that they had to clean the streets. Since the carriages have been moved or relocated from Chestnut to Fifth and Sixth Streets, the National Park Service has been more lenient with our permit applications and the requirements under that permit. They have instituted $10,000-1-year annual assessment fee per -- divided among the carriage companies. However, there is nothing in those current permit requirements that suggest or require us to clean up the environment around which we work, including those stands. I do want to state for the record that we currently do that. I employ someone every day to clean that area and make sure that that area of 149 /00 L&I - BILL 2 the carriage stands are cleaned and sanitary.
And when you say "we," you're referring to your company.
Do you know of any other companies that are doing that?
The Department of Public Health shall devise a system, a point system, for the suspension of carriage licenses. This is not a system that's new for us. Under the National Park regulations, prior to last fall, when we were moved off Chestnut Street, the National Park Service issued us a permit which had many regulations or many -- many stipulations that we must abide by in order to operate around the National Park area, and it was all based on a point system. So if the enforcement rangers came to the Independence National Park area and they observed the carriage driver doing something that was in clear violation of the point system, we were in fact issued a number of points for that. 150 /00 L&I - BILL 2 It was done in writing, and there was an appeal process. If the carriage company were to accumulate so many points within a one-year period, they would face suspension, and I certainly am not opposed to that. I do believe that this is one way to ensure that the operators as well as the drivers understand need the for such regulations and how serious they are. So I hope that the carriage operators will have a voice or at least some input. Perhaps maybe you should have the National Park Services guidelines or its point system codes and we can mimic some of them, but that, we already have or had copies of, and I'd be willing to supply that as well. In regard to the identification numbers displayed on the horses, I'm certainly not opposed to an ID which will be affixed to the horse. It is my hope that we could affix a tag which would be similar to a dog tag. It would be permanently affixed to the horse's halter or bridle, which would have an identification number. Corresponding to that number at the stable would be a file with a photo of the horse and all 151 /00 L&I - BILL 2 pertinent documentation. And that's how I propose that we the identification number. Now let me get to the temperature. Twenty-four years of history in the City of Philadelphia I think is our best case study that we have for the temperature and the current conditions -- the scientific conditions under which these horses operate. We are talking about large draft horses and draft crossbred horses, which walk around the Independence National Park area. They pull carriages, which would amount to nothing more than a toy to you or I. In fact, it is very true that just about every one on this panel could probably pull a carriage fully loaded with people around the 20-minute tour without much problem -- and that's fully loaded. Okay, they're on roller bearings, and there's very, very, very light traction that's needed. Probably the most exerted is when they first start, but once the carriage is rolling, there is minimal pressure needed or energy exerted to move that carriage move. There has never been, despite what we have heard here today, any instance that I am 152 /00 L&I - BILL 2 aware of in 24 years for our company or any other company in which a horse has suffered a heat- related or illness or stress or even death associated with temperature here in the City of Philadelphia. I ask that the temperature of 94 degrees remain the same since we have no 9 scientific documentation which directly relates to the carriage-horse industry here in Philadelphia to prove otherwise. I also ask that we use the KYW clock as a reference for the temperature. It is on the mall. I cannot attest to its accuracy. However, I have heard that we use the temperatures at the airport, but we are not working at the airport, we are working around the mall. It's an easy, visible identification and a way for us to control and monitor the temperature. We don't need the Health Department or SPCA, and I'm sure that they would back us on this. We essentially do not need them to come out and tell us when it's 94 degrees. We haven't in the past.
The industry has, when the temperature has reached 94 degrees and above, taken it upon 153 /00 L&I - BILL 2 ourselves to send these carriages home and remove the horses from the street. We will continue to do that. We're certainly not opposed to them coming down to reinforce that. However, that has been a good gauge for to us use and an accessible measure by which we can send them home and monitor what is happening on the mall around which these horses are operating. As far as the workday goes for the horse, currently, it is ten hours. Again, in my professional opinion in working with these animals in this industry, there is no need for that to be any lower. I would propose that we reword the language to say "ten hours in harness," which would essentially limit a horse's work day to 9 hours and allow us the 30 minutes travel time back and forth. Again, with no scientific studies and no documentation of any instances here in Philadelphia which relate to that being excessive, I ask that that not be altered and that it remain at ten hours per day that we simply have in harness. Incidently, in the legislation, it 154 /00 L&I - BILL 2 states that riding horses -- I believe it states that riding horses. . I'm sorry. All I wanted to say was that it is more physically taxing on a horse to be ridden than it is to pull a carriage. As far as the limitations to the routing, I understand that we are deleting, or proposed to delete, Third Street from Pine Street to Walnut Street. And I ask that with proper cleaning and policing of the area and working with the City and implementing a waste-management program, I believe that will address the issues of the concerned residences and issues relating to that stretch of Third Street, and I ask that it not be deleted from our approved carriage routes. I believe that the leading (unintelligible) block of Third Street, or that stretch of Third Street, would do a great injustice to the Society Hill area, the historical landmarks that are certainly an asset and which we point out on carriage routes. Again, I feel that if we address the issues of the residents in that stretch of Third Street, which are mainly sanitation, and we do that through regulations and implement a plan, I believe we should be able to 155 /00 L&I - BILL 2 continue to utilize that stretch.
Mr. Slocum, not to interrupt you, and I know I'm going to be sorry I said this, but could we actually come down and do that, try to pull a carriage by ourselves?
And if I can't do it, I'll get one of my bigger staffers to do it.
Could Mr. Schrager do it? He's an attorney so he's --
'Cause when she said that -- when the other -- when the other lady said that, I went, "No way." 156 /00 L&I - BILL 2
Is she still here? But if you're saying on the record, it intrigues me 'cause --
It's on the record, yeah. And you can do that. In fact, I'm --
Like if Councilman Rizzo pulled it, could Councilwoman Blondell Reynolds and DiCicco and me --
And I'll -- you know what, if you all want to jump in there, the five of you, I'll pull the carriage around the block. (Applause.)
Anytime. In fact, I would encourage every single person who has a vote and a say in this to come to our facility and see exactly what we do and how we do it, how an operation can be done.
Mr. Slocum, I think I may have said this four or five, maybe six 157 /00 L&I - BILL 2 times today: If they all operated in the manner that you did, we probably wouldn't be here today except for temperature issues. And I'm not patronizing you and not because you've been a supporter of mine -- before someone suggests I'm promoting you. The fact of the matter is, you do run a very good operation. With the Chair's permission, I have a question.
Do you happen to know what percentage of business is conducted -- by your company, anyway -- after the hour of 9 p.m.? And if you don't know the number, okay. I mean, I just was curious.
And, you know, some of the things that are in this bill were basically arbitrary numbers based on what I was getting from a various group of people, and that, as we've heard in testimony today, the numbers have been changing all over the place, even by the experts in whatever field -- the doctor who testified about, I think it was in Cleveland 158 /00 L&I - BILL 2 where, I guess, they get the horses off at 85 degrees, suggested that the low temperature should be 30 degrees straight, flat, 30, but most other people who testified think it should be 32. So, you know, again, we're all over the place again. And, anyway, could you answer that question? And if not we'll move to another question.
As far as the temperature goes, now that you've brought it up, on the downside of the temperature, we are proposing a 20-degree wind chill. We would like to see the 17 amended to 20. 18 And, again, I think that you stated, 19 and I want to state for the record, that you are 20 not doing a horse any justice by blanketing that 21 horse in those low temperatures. Essentially what 22 you had described earlier will happen, and you're 23 actually doing the horse an injustice to provide a 24 blanket for him. And at temperatures of 20 25 degrees, you're still not jeopardizing that 159 /00 L&I - BILL 2 horse's welfare or well-being, especially in the types of animals that are used.
Now to get back to your question, I don't know the exact percentage of business that would be jeopardized after p.m. 8 All I can say is that our night shift, which is a 9 substantial part of our business, generally leaves the barn around 6 p.m., and we operate currently until about the midnight hour -- we feel that that's a safe cutoff time. We've never had any instances or circumstances, problems, any accidents. There may be some traffic issues, and I understand that there are some congestion problems on Chestnut around Second Street, perhaps around South Street. We certainly try to avoid those areas. But our evening is a great portion of our business. We are there to provide walk-up service as well many reservations, engagements, pick up at restaurants, drop-off. It's a tremendous part of our business. Hotel people, as was stated earlier -- 160 /00 L&I - BILL 2
And the interesting thing is, when we're talking about the evening hours, the evenings are generally cooler than the daytime, but we have another problem in the evening, and that has to do with traffic conditions. And in the regs, you know, we're talking about doing some flashing-light systems. Again, I know that we're not going to get this bill out of committee today. My colleagues -- some of them are still around, and we've talked about it. We will take under consideration all of the testimony here today, and at the call of the Chair, we'll do the public meeting and vote the bill out with whatever amendments, if the bill is to be amended, at that time. My other question has to do with the photo ID file. You had suggested that a photograph of the horse be taken and then we have a permanent identification tag or badge or whatever on the harness. Is anyone else doing that now, do you know? Are we doing that?
Currently, we are not, I don't believe that we're required to have an 161 /00 L&I - BILL 2 identification number on that horse, but that is in these regulations -- in the proposed legislation here. And I propose that that is the way it be done, that we have a similar item like a dog tag, which will be permanently affixed to the halter. Now, the halter or bridle, understandably, can be removed. However, I feel that if we do it in this manner and there ever is an issue with a horse, whether it be working too long or inhumane conditions, any official can go up to that animal and take that identifying number off of the tag, go back to that stable to check the photograph, which would properly identify that this number matches this horse, and all documenting evidence and records and all requirements be in the file with the horse.
I don't want to open up another discussion, but are any of the horses branded or tattooed in any way?
That's what I was going to ask. I mean, you could switch those things. Is there any way to say this is that horse? 162 /00 L&I - BILL 2
And I appreciate what you're saying, but I don't know if I want a City employee, or whatever, to have to go back to a stable just to compare the photograph to the horse, although I do respect your offer for some means of identification.
I certainly would not recommend tattooing or branding of the horse. However, there is a practice in place in New York City where they actually brand the hoof. It's not a permanent thing because the hoof does tend to grow; it's a fingernail-type substance, so it will grow out.
I can't really say. That depends on the management and the foot care that you have and the use of supplements, whatever, so it varies from horse to horse. However, I don't feel that that's a very humane way to do it, and I would prefer not to do it that way.
Again, I said I didn't want to open up a whole new discussion; I 163 /00 L&I - BILL 2 just was curious about --
I was going to ask that too. There's a lot of people here that know a lot about horses. And the doctor, you seem to know a lot. Do they identify horses somehow? I mean, could I steal Councilman DiCicco's horse and take it somewhere else? How would you know it's mine? Could you come back up.
Doctor, I thought you left. I was referring to you a few minutes ago; I didn't see you back there. (Dr. Buck returns to witness table.)
Dr. Ellen Buck. There's a number of ways of identifying horses. Tattooing is one way; it's usually done on the soft tissue under the lip with race horses. I'm not real familiar with the New York way of doing it on the hoof. It takes about six months.
Is that a problem 164 /00 L&I - BILL 2 for the horse, or does it hurt? Is it humane?
Hot branding is a humane issue. Cold branding is considered more humane. And then you have microchip identification like they're doing with other animals -- lab animals, dogs and cats, but that would not be real amenable to --
Doctor, the industry just said that it is not humane to do the hoof. Could you just comment on that? I don't know if the hoof is an area that --
The surface of the hoof is not -- no, it's not sensitive; it's horn tissue, like a fingernail.
(Not totally audible, off mike.) Okay, but if it was an area on the horse's body to place an identification number, the hoof would be a place to put it and the horse wouldn't even know it's (inaudible).
But it may have to be done more frequent during the life of the horse, so I'm looking for something that's more permanent but yet humane.
And I would say, we recently worked with the City of Baltimore, doing a consultation on their entire animal services, and I got invited in that because they have carriage- horse issues and another type of carriage concession that's very unique to Baltimore, and they've got a lot of issues down there. They are doing a little bit more like what you're talking about, where they have a horse name, a horse identification, and a photographic record kept at the stables. A lot of that depends on the expertise of the individuals looking and comparing. And I know, those of us who have horses and know horses, we'll recognize them by sight. But an investigator may not be real familiar with horses may not even be able to match up a photograph with the horse.
But the tattoo seems -- I mean, I'm looking at something not to hurt the horse, but that that seems like the easy 166 /00 L&I - BILL 2 way out. As a veterinarian, would you recommend that? Is it humane?
Well, veterinarians would not have the tattooing equipment. There is a subset of people that work at the race track that are responsible for the tattooing.
Slocum, would you ever think of doing that to your horse? We're just asking questions here.
I understand. No, I would never consider doing that to my horse.
Well, I wouldn't consider having a tattoo myself, but having a needle stuck in the upper part of your lip, I mean, I don't know if you'd want to do it or not.
It's an imprint-type tattoo where's it's all done with one squeeze.