So you wouldn't bring a fresh horse down at the carriage and take the harness off the horse, you would never do that, right?
I'd like to call 208 /00 L&I - BILL 2 Councilman Tayoun to speak about some of the background of this legislation. (James Tayoun comes forward.)
You never thought you'd be back talking about horses again, right?
Yeah. My name is James Tayoun, T-A-Y-O-U-N. Mr. Chairman, I have to -- well the chairman's gone, but I have to congratulate the chairman and I have to congratulate the author of the legislation for really digging in as deeply as you have and trying to do things. But I'd like to call to your attention that the major problem both companies that have testified before you face is the fact of lowering the temperature, which could be an arbitrary situation. It does impede their ability to earn a living because of the way Philadelphia weather changes from moment to moment. And the other one is the hours of operation. In my history and your history as Councilpeople of this district, we understand that people are always complaining about something with the carriage companies. But in reality, the good 209 /00 L&I - BILL 2 that they do outweighs the problems that people have to suffer. Most of us have to share in keeping a tradition like this alive, which is good for us. And we all have to bite the bullet. But I'd also like to call your attention, you might not know about it, but the carriage company that really hit the headlines and created a lot of problems for you as the Councilman and for the Councilpeople and for the carriage companies was the problem created by a landlord fighting with the carriage owner over rents, and the horses could not be reached by the owner because the stable owner -- the horse owner could not take care of his horses because the stable owner wouldn't let him in for two weeks, maybe three weeks. And I remember going to a hearing and discussing this with health people, but now I understand that the judge has ordered those horses back to the original owner, and they're going someplace else, so they're going to probably be around and under very intense scrutiny by your committee as well, but I think everything will be back to -- 210 /00 L&I - BILL 2
But I wonder if it was only two weeks that they couldn't get to those horses. Those horses looked like they were abused a lot longer than two weeks.
Well, you were there and I wasn't, so I go with your judgment.
I go with your judgment, Mr. Councilman, and I want to thank you very much for testifying.
Councilman DiCicco, I'd like to hand up some petitions that only were done in the last three days of 350 citizens who appreciate the availability of the carriage ride the and importance of those carriages to Philadelphia. 211 /00 L&I - BILL 2 And in conclusion, I would like to say that with all the testimony you've heard today, there is obviously a humane aspect that we're all concerned with. But on the other hand, we also have a business that we need to consider, and there needs to be a balancing here. The hours that are shown in this present ordinance would put these companies out of business. The temperature also has an impact on the companies 'cause it just reduces the number of days in which they can operate. They still have the overhead. The overhead does not go away, and so there are there are the business considerations as well. And I thank you very much for affording us this time to make a presentation.
Thank you. And I certainly, I guess am speaking on behalf of the other members of the committee, that we have -- I think they have been more enlightened about it today. I have to some degree, but I've been working on this for a couple of years. And I do understand that when we're asking the industry to abide by maybe more 212 /00 L&I - BILL 2 stringent regulations, in effect, we are reducing the hours that they can work, which means reducing the income, but yet we're imposing other restrictions that are going to require them to have more output in terms of dollars. So we're paid to try to make some decisions that -- and, again, as I said at the onset, I think this is one where not everyone will get 100 percent of what they want, and I'm sure a lot of people will walk away upset, but we're paid to do this, so we will mull over this for the next -- I'm not sure what the date is. Do we have a date? It will be at the call of the Chair. I didn't close the hearing yet, but is there anyone else here who wishes to testify? I believe the lady in the back does? And I think what we really need to do, whatever the final draft of the legislation is to the owners who are here today, who are the most responsible owners, and everyone has agreed upon that, is when we say in the legislation that you're not to be on Race Street between the hours of 4 and 6 p.m., we mean it. You know, we can't keep making excuses. So I think there's a whole 213 /00 L&I - BILL 2 educational process that needs to be encouraged from the owners of these companies with the operators or the drivers of these carriages. I don't think anything we can do today, whether we got everything in there that everybody agreed on is going to make a difference unless somebody wakes up and says that we are going to begin the enforcement, and I think we really will begin to do the enforcement, and that we mean business on our part. And people have to just be more responsible out there. And if they were -- I mean, I'll give you an example. I sent the letter off to all of the companies back in September -- and I think spoke about this a little bit earlier -- advising them with a copy of the letter from the Park Service that they had up until October 30th or 31st of 1999 to renew, and I got a response, I think, from one or two. And that's not the right way. My job isn't too notify them, but I was trying to say, All you're doing is feeding into the opposition, or to the people who are against what you're doing by ignoring everything. You 214 /00 L&I - BILL 2 can't ignore 'em. I have a constituency out there, in addition to the business community, who reside in those communities, and they pay the highest real-estate taxes in the City of Philadelphia, and they have issues when a carriage is going up their street the wrong way, or the carriage guy is blocking traffic and shouldn't be out there when the regs say you shouldn't be there. 'Cause they look to me, they look to me for, Well, how do you allow this to happen. Councilman? And, you know, I don't want to be on -- I mean, there are always exceptions to the rule, there's always an excuse, and you say, Well, I just left, you know, a group of people off and I'm on my way back. But I know. I mean, I'm a street guy and I know what goes on out there.
Let me finish. They just want to continue -- for the most part, from what I've seen, is there are a certain group of people out there that just want to ignore that, and I've asked the questions. When I'm on Market Street on a Friday evening at 5 o'clock traveling 215 /00 L&I - BILL 2 east and the carriage is in the left-hand lane, traveling east, and cars and buses are trying to get past, that's a dangerous situation. We talk about road rage. I mean, it's amazing, and I've said this before, that it's amazing that nothing more serious has happened. And I'll ask the question, you know, What are you here for? I got this big City car, you know, with an emblem on it, for whatever that means, and I say, "Why are you out here?" You know, and I'm being told things or I get hand signals and, you know, that certainly doesn't sit well with me because I don't want them to go away, I don't want it to go away. I want it to work. But there are regulations and I implore everybody who's listening that whatever we come out with in the next week or two, they are going to be the regulations, and we do mean business. We're not going to be playing around. Thank you. Do you have something else to say?
Yeah. After I got your letter, we tried to make appointment with you to see you. We couldn't have a chance.
I know what you're saying, but understand, having an appointment with me doesn't take away from the fact that you had to renew your license someplace else. I don't control that; that's the Park Service.
No, no. I'm talking about why when we get the letter, we try to explain to you our side, but nobody answers.
But a license was required by the Park Service. Whether you came to see me or not was not going to dismiss the fact that you had to have a license. I understand that you were going to speak to me about the fee structure and how much of an imposition financially it was to you, but I don't make the regulations for the Park Service, I don't do the licensing there. You know, you could have seen me twenty times in that two-week period, but you still had to go to the Park Service to get a license. 217 /00 L&I - BILL 2 But thank you for coming today.
Thank you. Is there anyone else here wishes to testify? Yes, ma'am, please come forward. (Witnesses come forward.
Hi. I'm going to make it short. My name is Violet Aharonian.
Okay. I am going to testify altogether different than what I had in mind simply because there's a conflict of statistics here -- mine versus theirs. So if this session is going to go into next week, then I will have my statistics.
No, what will happen is, this hearing will be -- we will end this hearing, we will go into the public meeting, 218 /00 L&I - BILL 2 and that will be the final decision by the committee as to whether there are amendments, does the bill get passed, and it's --
Okay. Address it to the Chair of the committee, Councilman Mariano, and he will see that all members of the committee get a copy of your testimony.
And one of his staff members is giving you this information.
Okay. In the meantime, I wanted to say -- several of you Councilman asked, had any horses died on the streets? I have 219 /00 L&I - BILL 2 something here, which I wrote to the Daily News back in '95, I think it is, and they gave my letter a beautiful exposure, except for one thing -- I told them that two recent horses had recently died, that two carriage horses had recently died in New York, and I put the dates, but for whatever reason, they left it out. They had edited it -- they left it word for word except that they removed the dates.
Now, you know what we go through so don't believe everything you read about what they say that we said.
Okay, okay. The only thing they removed were the two dates that the horses died on the streets of New York.
We have had incidences here in Philadelphia where Philadelphia police horses have died on the street.
We have Philadelphia police horses that were involved in accidents and 220 /00 L&I - BILL 2 had died, so I just want to make sure you understand that just because two horses --
Yeah, but what I'm getting at is, I don't know of any carriage horses that died. We've had some police horses that have been injured and died in the line of duty in the City of Philadelphia. So it's not just exclusive to the carriage-horse industry.
Oh, absolutely, I understand that. Now, I wanted to say one thing, which is not -- it's not about a carriage horse, but it's recent, it just came out from Eric Hendricks, a picture of a horse -- not a carriage horse -- who -- where a cherry bomb up on Erie Avenue exploded. The horse bucked or whatever -- bolted, the horse bolted and dropped dead. That can happen on Market Street, Chestnut Street or Walnut Street. Have you ever looked in the eyes of -- I live way out of town, I don't even live in Philadelphia but I drop a lot of money in 221 /00 L&I - BILL 2 Philadelphia. I knew I'd get the head shake. Let me ask you something. After late in the evening, have you ever looked into the eyes of a carriage horse? Trust me, do it one day unless you want to -- I beg your pardon?
Your vernacular is so subtle. Believe me, it's sad. And I love animals, horses, whatever. But when you look in the eyes of these carriage horses, why -- let me ask you, why is it that some cities have banned them entirely altogether? They have banned carriage horses and there are cities whose temperature they have dropped down as low as 85. Now, that's not a lot of statistics but that I know for a fact. But we -- we don't even need carriage horses here. We have -- I know you don't want to hear it, but we have money coming in the billions annually. Why do we have to depend on carriage 222 /00 L&I - BILL 2 horses for an income to the City of Philadelphia, why? A lot of cities have banned carriage horses, a lot. Not one two, three, or four, a lot. And the ones which have not banned carriage horses have temperature ratings as low as 85 degrees. And then with these ball bearings, if they're so great, why don't they pull 'em themselves? (Laughter.)
If they're so great, hey, I would do it, only I have four metal rods in my back.
I don't think the carriage horse -- I think there's something -- when I went to New York a few years ago, I know one of the things that I wanted to do was --
I think that it's beyond just riding in a carriage, I think there's something about being drawn by a horse that's -- it's romantic, it's all of the things that people like to do and they don't do it every day of their life. They come from a town or a place that doesn't have carriages or horses, and people are 223 /00 L&I - BILL 2 excited about it. And I think it adds something to the City. I can't imagine that you think that they should be banned.
No, if were up to me, we would have no -- then, in that case, you can argue with all the other cities which have banned carriage horses and --
Wait till you see my ayes around 10 o'clock 'cause I have a community meeting after this. (Laughter.)
Can I just say one more thing? I think it went over your heads. These ball bearings, if they're so great, I would pull it myself but I have four metal rods in my back so I don't think I'd be very good at it.
Thank you. Thank you for your testimony. Thank you for waiting.
Sir, if you want 224 /00 L&I - BILL 2 to speak, you have to come up to the table. (Witnesses come forward.)
Good afternoon. Please identify yourself for the record.
My name is Jason Metivier. That's M-E-T-I-V-I-E-R. I'm not currently a carriage driver; I'm a trainee with the Philadelphia Carriage Company. And I got the job after I had heard about the problems with the other carriage companies. And I have two roommates -- I live in Philadelphia, and I have two roommates who are vegans, they're animal activists, they're vegetarians. And when I told them that I had an interest in this job, they were sickened, they were pretty mad at me.
No, no, I'm still a roommate. The thing I told them, the reason I wanted the job, I figured if every carriage 225 /00 L&I - BILL 2 company in the City was as bad as this one or two that were making the headlines, that I would be the one good driver, I would be the one nice guy, I would be the one guy who, like, gave a damn about the horses or whatever. I was wrong. I'm not the one nice guy. I go out in the street every day training and I see people who really, really care about these horses. They see their horse break a sweat, their horse gets water. They see a horse that, you know, needs to be in the shade, the horse goes in the shade. I just see people caring about animals. I don't see slave drivers working the horses, whipping them into a trot. I see people slowing down the horses. And I just felt that someone who actually has cared about the animals, that they should get up here and say something.
Thank you, and I know you've been here all day so I appreciate you sticking around. Thank you. Please identify yourself for the record.
Yeah. My name is Jennifer 226 /00 L&I - BILL 2 Taylor, and I work for Philadelphia Carriage Company. And I would just like to say that I would never work for company that was cruel to their horses, and I ride horses and I love horses. And the horse that I drive I love, and I would never --
Did you ever work in the carriage industry before that?
No. I never would because I thought that it was, you know, cruel to horses -- until I actually went down and I got the job and realized that they weren't cruel to the horses.
Thank you. Any questions for these witnesses? (No questions.)
Is there anyone else here who wishes to testify? (No response.)
This concludes today's hearing, which will be recessed to the call of the Chair. We don't have a date for you yet but, apparently, Councilman Mariano's assistant tells me it will probably the last week in May. You will be notified. And that will give us enough time to vote the bill out of committee and have some finality to the bill by the end of the session, June 22nd. (Adjourned at 6:00 p.m.) - - - 228 C E R T I F I C A T E I HEREBY CERTIFY that the foregoing proceedings of the Council of the City of Philadelphia of Thursday, May 11, 2000, were reported fully and accurately by me, and that this is a correct transcript of same. RE: COUNCIL COMMITTEE ON LICENSES and INSPECTIONS BILL NO. 000217 __________________________________, JOSEPHINE CARDILLO, Registered Professional Reporter