I mean, I used to deal 167 /00 L&I - BILL 2 with a lot of standardbred race horses. Half the time, I couldn't read the tattoo number.
I mean, don't know if practices are better or worse today, but you have to physically flip the horse's lip upside down, and some horses don't like that, and you've got to be able to read the number. I mean, it's not -- in my opinion, I've offered what I think is the fair and the best way to regulate this.
And I wasn't suggesting that -- I was looking for something that may be more permanent and easier for the people who will be doing the monitoring of the horses and not have to go up to the stable from Fifth and Market, or wherever it is, and go and identify the horse. And if it turns out that they really can't make a positive identification, then we get into the argument, Well, it is the horse, and then, you know, go back and look at it again. I don't know if that's the appropriate way to do it, either.
I understand that it may be an inconvenience to the system; however, I 168 /00 L&I - BILL 2 think that that's only going to apply when there are cases when there are issues in question, and that would certainly warrant an investigation.
I also want to say that I have a list here of cities which have 10 temperature regulations of 98 degrees or higher. 11 I know that there weren't many offered, but I do 12 want to state that I have a list of 21 here with 13 98 degrees or higher as far as the temperature 14 threshold. 15 And also, in my personal opinion, which 16 is shared by many of our supporters, it would be a 17 tremendous loss to the City of Philadelphia and 18 its growing tourism industry if, in fact, the 19 carriage could not survive due to excessive 20 regulations. This industry is already facing a 21 tremendous burden due to the relocation of the carriage stands away from the 500 block of Chestnut Street onto the adjacent Fifth and Sixth Street locations. We have recently experienced a 30 169 /00 L&I - BILL 2 percent loss of revenue over that move last year. New regulations have added the following additional fees: $10,000 assessment from the National Park Service; proposed street-cleaning fees; to 30 times increase in City licensing 7 fees; less work hours; less days to work -- and 8 that's not incorporating normal increase in daily 9 operating costs. 10 In summary, I can state here today that if these proposed regulations are passed as written, a dependable, responsible horse-drawn carriage operator, such as myself, whose primary business concerns are the animals, whose business practices are well recommended and commended by this very city, tourism agencies, local business groups, and individuals, simply cannot and will not survive. The proposed compromised solutions that I have offered to this committee today hopefully are not a point from which to negotiate but the bare minimums I feel that are necessary to operate the quality-type service that is due of this City of Philadelphia. Thank you. 170 /00 L&I - BILL 2
Ma'am, if you wish to testify, you're going to have to come up to the witness table. Are you on the witness list?
We got plenty to go, yeah. Any questions of this witness? I just have a couple questions. Mr. Slocum, I guess you're a good guy, from what's happening, and the standards that you use -- you're a businessman, too. So you have these standards and, obviously, you like horses, I'll bet ya, but it's an investment and you want to take care of your investments.
Yes, I have been. I want to say first and foremost that I love animals, I 171 /00 L&I - BILL 2 love horses. And that is, I guess, why it's important to me that this be done right. I certainly don't want to sit here and support anyone who does not do this industry right or certainly can't do it justice. And there are not many operators who, in my opinion, do this right do, this industry justice. However, I plead that the committee and Council understand, recognize, and realize that my business practices will show that if you do things right, simply by enforcing -- and I don't -- my business doesn't need enforcing of regulations to be at the standard or level that we are today. But simply by enforcing the regulations that we currently have on the books and addressing the overall living conditions of these animals 7 days a week 24 hours a day, you will see a tremendous increase in the quality, the welfare of these animals out on the street.
So I guess you've never been cited by the City for doing anything? Have you ever been cited?
Have you ever had 172 /00 L&I - BILL 2 a horse, God forbid, die? Or has anything ever happened because of the weather?
And if I understood your testimony, in the cold, you don't give 'em blankets; you think it's better for them, these horses -- this is a learning experience again.
And understand that we don't -- there's no need for the carriages to be out there when it's under degrees or the wind 16 chill factor. And even at that point, they would 17 probably be out there very minimally. 18 However, no, we do not use blankets 19 because blankets can be misused. There is a 20 proper way to use them and under certain conditions. But overall, they can be misused and actually have an adverse effect on the horse by causing a sweating condition.
How much revenue do you think -- would you say how much tax revenue 173 /00 L&I - BILL 2 you think you give the City of Philadelphia?
Yeah. You know, I don't want to know what you make but --
Just this morning, I had to make another deposit into my account. I'm paying over $3,000 a week in employee wage taxes.
The horse-drawn carriages, I would say, in the peak of our season, we would have close to 50 people. 174 /00 L&I - BILL 2
Okay. And how do you control all of the people that work for you? How do you know that you don't get a bad person that's just, you know. . .
I commend my staff because I feel that the people in our management -- (Disturbance from audience members talking out loud among themselves.)
Excuse me, ma'am, ma'am, you're going to get a chance.
I'm sorry. I didn't even know it was you, Councilman, but we got to hear these guys, 'cause this is all important. Sorry to --
I certainly have to say that this not only me, but the members of our staff and the people who are in the management and supervisory positions throughout all of the ranks 175 /00 L&I - BILL 2 of our business certainly feel the same way.
Well, I don't have any more questions. Anyone else have any more questions for Mr. Slocum?
One final question. I believe I have referenced and you have reverenced the Interior Department or the Park Service regs. How do you feel about those regulations, and do you feel those are applicable to -- or that those are the regs that we should look to when we deal with this piece of legislation on the City's side?
Well, I certainly feel that there are pieces and parts of that that should be looked and perhaps incorporated in this. It's for the overall safety and to control the atmosphere under which we operated around the National Park. And I don't know which ones you all would specifically want to incorporate, but I would certainly have -- I mean, these are regulations that, although we're not -- most of them have currently been deleted from the current permit, our company still abides by and feels that 176 /00 L&I - BILL 2 were certainly put in there as necessary requirements to operate.
I think it would be helpful to the committee if you could supply the committee with a copy of the regulations that the Park Service has in place and maybe highlight those that you think would be applicable to the industry from the City's side.
Well, Mr. Chairman, what I was asked to do -- you were all presented with a fairly thick group of letters from various constituencies that were generally in support of Mr. Slocum's testimony, and I won't bore you with all that.
But I would like to -- I 177 /00 L&I - BILL 2 think one of the letters is very important and it's from Dr. Dale Schilling, who is not only the veterinarian for 76 Carriage, but he is also the City of Philadelphia's Police Department horse veterinarian who we had wanted to be here today, but he couldn't, and I would like to read his letter because I think it's fairly important here. This is addressed to Councilman DiCicco. "Dear Councilman DiCicco: Thank you for allowing me to speak on behalf of the horse-and-carriage regulations in Philadelphia. My veterinarian practice is specific to the care and treatment of horses. I have served as the veterinarian for 76 Carriage Company for years. 16 I have also been the veterinarian for the City of 17 Philadelphia mounted police horses for the past 18 18 years. 19 "During the past 22 years, there has 20 never been a problem with heat-related illnesses 21 concerning the horses under my care who work in 22 the City on a daily basis. It is my professional opinion that the current regulation of 94 degrees is adequate to prevent heat-related problems with the carriage horses. Horses who have 178 /00 L&I - BILL 2 accessibility to fresh water, are in good health, and live in a properly managed stable will tolerate the heat while working during the summer months. "Please accept this letter in lieu of Council testimony" and yadda-yadda -- I won't read the rest of the letter but I thought it was fairly important. I would also point out, although I will not read them to you again, that we have just recently provided letters in a separate packet from Charlie Pizzi, the Chairman of the Chamber of Commerce and also from Charlie Heinz, who is the General Manager of the Marriott Hotel and is Chair of the Convention Visitors Bureau's Government Affairs Committee, who are also in support of particular aspects, and I will not read them, so don't --
Thank you. They have all been put into the record. Any more questions? (No further questions.)
Seeing none, now 179 /00 L&I - BILL 2 let's do this right. Who didn't testify? You guys can go.
Let's try to do this in fours or fives. How many other people are there to testify after this group? raise their hand. Anybody else want to testify after this group?
Mr. Chairman, members of Council, my name is Mr. Edwin Goldsmith, I represent the Philadelphia Carriage Company. I'd like to --
I have to ask Mr. Goldsmith -- I don't want to hurt your feelings, but as I ranked everyone from the good guys down to that word I said, "scumbags" --
But you've heard testimony that did say that Philadelphia Carriage Company was one of the --
One of the two good operators. And proceeding from there, I'd like to call as my first witness Dr. Samuel Geller, who is sitting on my right. Dr. Geller, would you give us a little bit of your educational background and professional background.
All right. My name is Samuel Geller. I'm a veterinarian and I'm one of the owners of Quakertown Veterinarian Clinic up in Quakertown, which is upper Bucks County. I have a unique perspective from this in that I wear two hats in that when I was a first-year and second-year veterinarian student at the University of Pennsylvania, my summer job for two summers was driving a horse and carriage. So 181 /00 L&I - BILL 2 I have been in the driver's seat and I know how this business operates. I then graduated veterinary school and did some equine practice along with mixed small animals. Currently, I treat mostly small animals. , etc. So I come with a lot of experience about horses and carriages. And I'm here to basically give my opinion and try and help answer some questions that might be in your mind that other people maybe did not answer. First thing I wanted to talk about was from a driver's viewpoint or a person that's working in the business's viewpoint. There was a lot of talk here about, you know, what's the best way to control the care for these animals and to treat them humanely. And I truly, truly believe that it is -- if these animals are care for properly, if you select the right animals, if they are acclimated, and I think that is the key issue here, are they 182 /00 L&I - BILL 2 acclimated? Meaning, did they start their work in April, when it starts warming up and every day they're doing more work? This is a very seasonal business. You don't have to deal with this question about degrees wind chill factor. The 7 drivers won't go out, there's no business, they 8 don't want to stand their twiddling their thumbs, 9 I didn't either. 10 So we all started going out in the 11 spring, and everyday we did a little more work and 12 a little more work and we made a little more money 13 till we hit the peak season. And during the peak 14 season, it was, of course, the hottest, and our 15 horses were able to handle it because they slowly 16 acclimated every summer. This is the way it 17 works. 18 The horse I drove -- I actually drove a 19 horse, I drove a mule. It was extremely important 20 to me how that animal was because if he wasn't well, guess who didn't have a job, okay? And that is really the -- that shows through in the way these two companies that you've heard from today take care of their animals. To find, first of all, an animal that's 183 /00 L&I - BILL 2 sound is really important. To find one that's safe to drive is extremely important. So to abuse that animal and to not take good care of it doesn't make business sense. These guys aren't cheap, you know, and they're not disposable. And it's not even the cost; it's the training involved, it's the liability, it's the insurance, it's the accidents. So if you don't take care of your horse, you're really a fool. So Philadelphia and 76 have done everything to try and keep their stables intact and keep those animals working. And then there's been a lot of talk about the types of horses. Draft horses are bred to pull carriages. That's -- they're out everywhere in the Amish country, these big, heavy horses, plowing fields. It doesn't matter what the temperature is. Apparently, people must think it's humane out here but it's not humane here. I don't understand some of the rationale as far as statements about, you know, what temperature's right, what's not right. It's really, is the animal in condition, is the animal used to it, can the animal do it? When it is 98 degrees, they don't shut 184 /00 L&I - BILL 2 down Philadelphia Park. " And that was, like, these guys are running at a trot the whole time, and they have vet checks where they're checked. " Normal's 100 degrees, and they get their vet check and they move 'em on, but these horses are conditioned, and they are all trained. These guys are doing strenuous activity for the Olympic team, and this is not, you know, a big problem because they're used to it. The horses you're talking about today are marathon walkers.
They walk, walk, walk, and a lot of times they stand. So, you know, my opinion on temperature -- you know, you can pick whatever magic number you want. I was here, I guess, 15 years ago, when I first graduated veterinary school, when they made the first regulations and they decided the 94 185 /00 L&I - BILL 2 temperature. Now they want to go and change it. The history has been -- where has been the problem? I -- Mr. Slocum said there's been no 5 collapses, there's been no injuries. When I was a driver, we had a collapse. The collapse was the horse had colic, it was an intestinal thing. Maybe people that saw the horse thought it was heat thing but it was an intestinal thing. So where are the documented cases of these crisises (sic) that everybody's talking about or worrying about or predicting? I mean, it's been years since I've sat here, and I 14 don't know of anyone that has come across saying 15 that there's ten horses that died in the City of Philadelphia. So it's a big lot of talk, but where is really the problem? So, you know, you can pick a number, whatever you want. One veterinarian will give you one number, another veterinarian will give you another number. My point is, it's the care of the animal and it's the training, and is that done properly. These guys pull on a flat surface. They're not pulling up and down mountains and 186 /00 L&I - BILL 2 hills. This is not San Francisco; this is Philadelphia. When I drove my carriage, you could see the biggest issue was the horse getting it started. Once they got the momentum, everything is on ball bearings, everything is rolling. If the carriage is treated properly, if it's greased, if it's lubed, it is not such an ordeal. And, again, this is a 1600-pound horse that was bred. We're not talking about Morgan horses. ), they buy Belgians, they buy the big draft horses, and these horses were bred specifically for this, have been since whenever they existed. And to think that this is a different type of horse out there that someone's going to ride, it's not that horse. So, you know, again, we've got to use some common sense here. It's a very emotional issue for a lot of people, and I look -- I look at it from a common-sense thing. You know, what is the history, what is the facts, you know, what have been the problems, and how do you guys come about with a number. There was a big discussion about 187 /00 L&I - BILL 2 identifying, tattooing that -- here's your answer, I give you that one --
Yeah, right, 'cause you guys wasted a whole minutes and you all 8 probably want to go home for dinner. 9 Microchip, you microchip the horses. 10 My dog is microchipped, probably some people's in 11 this room's dogs are microchipped. 12 All you have to do, if you got a 13 regulator guy, you buy him the scanner, he scans 14 the horse -- 15
I have to 16 interrupt you. Everything Councilman Rizzo owns 17 is microchipped -- from all of his toys to 18 everyone he dates. 19 (Laughter.) 20
They can't be falsified, they don't fade, they don't disappear. The only 188 /00 L&I - BILL 2 issue with microchips is, some of them can drift. Typically we microchip horses in the neck area, and these things are the size of a grain of rice. The companies that sell 'em say they're not supposed to migrate, but sometimes they do. So if they migrate to the neck, you scan the entire front of the horse, you get reading. It's the same thing every SPCA in the country uses to identify every dog so that laboratories can't steal 'em, you know, shifty people can't do it. The AKC requires it, so it's real easy. You know, if you have one person that needs to identify the horse, he knows where the scanner is, he gets the scanner, and he scans the horse. You don't have to worry 'cause no one can falsify it.
I forgot to ask that question. I was thinking about the microchip 189 /00 L&I - BILL 2 and --
No. The scanner might -- some of the companies, if you're buying enough chips, they give you the scanner. But maybe it's 50 bucks, 100 bucks.
But the purchase and the implementation of the chip is about how much?
So, you know, if you want to identify these horses with no confusion, no 22 possibility for fraud, there's only one way to go, and that's the technology today. The tattoo thing, it fades. I mean, all the race horses that are tattooed, you can't beat 'em. Then the Arabs 190 /00 L&I - BILL 2 have their brands and they're in different languages, you can't read those. So the microchip is a number, a piece of cake. So that's my recommendation if you're putting that into your --
There's been a wealth of knowledge, thank you. We should have let you come up first, you should have told us.
Well, I tried to interrupt you but, you know, you get that done. So I mean, basically, you know, my opinion is here is that you've got to use common sense when you write this bill, you have to use the track record. And the real key everyone's getting really worked up about is the treatment of the animals, and that's really the key. And if these guys treat 'em well, they'll work well. And they have to treat 'em well or they won't be in business. You know, it doesn't make sense. They can't buy 50 new horses every year. It's too expensive and it's too long to train. It's like running any other business, it's your staff.
Yeah. I think I 191 /00 L&I - BILL 2 can agree with you to a certain degree, but I think there are those out there who may not buy the horses that are in the best condition and just figure they will use that horse until it just dies on them because the investment is not as great.
A good business person who is in it -- no pun intended -- for the long haul, one would say, "I want to buy a horse that is in good condition, take care of that animal to get the most use out of it because it benefits me as a business person."
And not have to deal with all of the City agencies and everybody coming down on me, but recently, we had, I think, the complete opposite of that, where I believe someone may have purchased those -- horses and I don't know this for a fact, but they were probably inexpensive and these horses were probably on their, as they say -- again, not to be 192 /00 L&I - BILL 2 disrespectful -- on their last leg and ran them into the ground and it's just profit, profit, profit, profit. So I guess one of my questions is, when the horses are purchased, who makes the determination, aside from -- is there anyone, aside from the business person, who determines that the horse is in fit shape to be purchased for the purpose of working in that business? Is the City doing any of that? And I see 'em shaking their head no. 13 And I know I'm going to keep hearing these things with bureaucracy, because I just -- I really dislike bureaucracy, but how do we guarantee that? 'Cause I think that's a very valid point, and it goes back to what my opening statement was, which was based on conversations that I had with veterinarians and as recent as Sunday --
It's the care that is probably more paramount than anything else. The issue of temperature, I think, again, we can debate that from here to doomsday, and no one's 193 /00 L&I - BILL 2 ever going to be happy on it, I don't think. But the care is more paramount than anything else. And if you have a well-properly maintained horse who's properly fed and bedded and the conditions that horse lives in are appropriate and adequate, then that horse, obviously, can operate and work longer and in probably more severe conditions than another horse. I mean, it's just like us. I mean, I would be a fool to get out on the Broad Street Run last week 'cause I don't run.
But someone who runs every day and trains for it, the Broad Street Run, I guess, is a cake walk to them.
If I had a suggestion for you, there was a letter written by Dale Schilling, a veterinarian out in Montgomery County, that he apparently -- I think he has the contract with the City for the mounted horses, okay? Now, this -- Dale is a good veterinarian, and you need to find someone like Dale that is going to be your inspector person who is going to come from an objective area and look at these horses and give 194 /00 L&I - BILL 2 them a physical. You guys have to decide what you feel is an adequate amount of surveillance. So, for instance, okay, at the beginning of the season, we want these animals examined -- I mean, we, as veterinarians, write health charts every day of the week. When animals have to ship, they have to have health charts. For horse shows, sometimes they require health charts. So there's formal paperwork that are health chart-type things, that you can say, Okay, Dr. So-and-So comes in, inspects these horses, he knows who they are, they're chipped, they can't go in say this is Horse A and it's really Horse B 'cause they're chipped. Most of the vets probably have scanners anyhow, so it's not a big deal about the scanning issue. And they go and say, This horse is fit. I mean, at Philadelphia Park, every day they race, the horses are examined by veterinarians on the grounds that work for the Racing Commission, and say, These horses are fit to work today and do this race. And the main reason they do that -- you know, everyone thinks 195 /00 L&I - BILL 2 it's for the horse's sake; it's for the jockey's sake. They cannot send that horse out there lame, have him break his leg in the middle of the track, and the jockey goes flying and gets killed. That, obviously, doesn't look good for their industry. So the Racing Commission in Pennsylvania thinks that's a big issue. Of course, it's a big issue for the horse also and the public and the perception. But when it really comes down to legality, dollars and cents, I mean, I worked as a state veterinarian for a period of time, and they said -- my boss told me, "You're protecting these jocks." He goes, "That's your job. If you have a question about a horse going to the post, remember, you're protecting the jock." It's the same thing: the vet would be protecting the tourist, the drivers, and the reputation of the City of Philadelphia. So, you know, I mean, everyone agrees, it's the condition. You just have to establish what you guys feel is fair and what these guys can live up to. And I think that's the direction you need to go. 196 /00 L&I - BILL 2
So, in other words, it is your testimony that the temperature that's in this ordinance is not particularly relevant to this issue.
Yeah. In my opinion, you could pick whatever number you want to pick out of the air. It depends where you live, it depends what the horse has done. The bottom line is, can the animal do it? And, you know, I know you have to pick a temperature. Fifteen years ago, we picked 94, and there a big debate then about it, and they came out with that number. And, again, my point to you is, you've had that number. What has initiated the reason to change it? We don't have these horses scattered all over Philadelphia laying in heat. So what has done it? I mean, and no other industry has a number -- whether it be horse shows, whether it be racing. So it's, like, why would this industry now all of a sudden have a number? 197 /00 L&I - BILL 2
I think it's because it's in everybody's face day in and day out.
And people are wondering, you know, they're sitting there saying, God, it's so hot out today. You know, these poor horses. And most people --
Including myself. I'm just -- I'm still getting an education.
Yeah, and I think you're doing a good job of it 'cause I think the best thing you did this weekend was talking to another veterinarian. You're going to get ten opinions, ten different veterinarians and --
Three doctors give you three different opinions as to whether or not they should operate and stuff like that.
Doctor, I'd like to just move away from the issue of temperature for a moment and talk about something a little more closer to the ground. The Health Department, I believe, has left the shoeing, the condition of the horse's hooves, legs. To me, that's a very important issue, and I don't know how much of a problem that the industry has and whether or not they use horseshoers that are licensed, horseshoers -- I don't even know if there's such a thing. I know at the track, a blacksmith makes the shoe and a horseshoer puts it on, right? Where do we -- how big of a problem, if 199 /00 L&I - BILL 2 any, do we have with the condition of the horse's legs and feet? Because, again, I walk in that area, and I know that the condition of the streets aren't always the best for pedestrians, and I would assume a big hoof like a Belgian horse, that the condition of our city streets is also very important to the industry. How big of a problem do we have with the horse's legs, the shoeing requirements? Could you just comment on that?
First of all, most of these companies use well-experienced farriers. They need to use extremely experienced farriers because they don't need these shoes falling off, so they need people that know what they're doing. Most of the people use are experienced in shoeing carriage horses, not only for the industry, but most of their business would be related to pleasure driving, things like that. So there's a number of farriers in the area that are excellent farriers. The people that I know in the business, a lot of them load the horses up and take 'em out to Lancaster and use farriers out in Lancaster -- 200 /00 L&I - BILL 2 again, because these guys are dealing with the Amish horses and, you know, these guys are on the road all time. So they have special shoes, they have people that know what they're doing. They need to put something on the shoes to -- a lot of them put bohrium --
Which is -- it provides the fact that that shoe isn't going to be worn down in two days. It's not probably the greatest thing for the street, unfortunately, it might chew it up a little bit. But, again, I don't know if that's ever been a major issue or not. But the bottom line is that the people that are --
The ruts that are in the streets. 201 /00 L&I - BILL 2
Exactly. Now, the bottom is, you know, what are the terrains on? The nice thing, it's a flat terrain, so that's an advantage. Obviously, if there's potholes or issues like that, anyone can turn an ankle and potentially come up with a -- like a pulled ligament, something like that. That horse is going to need to be seen by a veterinarian, rested, etc. There are things that will develop in a carriage horse's feet. If you radiograph a carriage horse's feet, you will see a thing called "sidebone," and that is -- in school, when they showed sidebone, they say, "Oh, you see that there? That's sidebone." And they say, "Do you think that was causing lameness in this horse?" They said that it rarely does. So there are some radiographic changes that you'll see on every horse's radiographs. There's certain levels of arthritis -- like all of us are going to have as we age. Is the road any 202 /00 L&I - BILL 2 worse than running out in a soft -- you know, it's there's wear and tear, no matter where these guys work.
Thank you. I'd like to call my next witness, Mr. Basheir Ahmed.
Could you spell his last name or could someone spell the last name.
My name is Basheir Ahmed. My first name B-A-S-H-E-I-R. The last name A-H-M-E-D.
Mr. Ahmed is the owner of Philadelphia Carriage Co. How many years have been operating Philadelphia Carriage Co.?
And during that period of time, have you had experience with this temperature issue? Have you had any horses that 203 /00 L&I - BILL 2 have been negatively affected by temperature?
Well, I don't have any problem with 94 degrees at all, with all my horses. I don't see any horse from other company fell down or pass away or something happen to him in the street.
Now, you're familiar with the hours of operation that are proposed by this ordinance. If those hours of operation were put into effect, what effect would that have on your company?
Those hours exactly fit the new regulation, just put us out of business 100 percent.
And so then people 20 would lose their jobs at that point, under these 21 regulations, under these hours. 22
The hours are 3 o'clock 204 /00 L&I - BILL 2 from until 7 o'clock. That's most time we get more tourists to the City, we get more ride.
Do you also between 5 and 12 o'clock at night and on weekends? 6
Now, do you rotate these horses, or does one horse work the whole day or does he go back to the stable? Or how does it work?
The horse work during the day is different. Another horse during the night. Is different horse, not the same horse.
So, now, during the year, do you put these horses out to pasture for a period of time? 205 /00 L&I - BILL 2
We do 'em in the wintertime, we (unintelligible) the horses in Lancaster. We take a few of them, we return them to the field in (unintelligible).
I'm having trouble with the hours of operation there. If you rotate the hours and the maximum horse could be out -- the arithmetic doesn't work. How could a horse be out a maximum of 10 hours and you rotate it?.
No. The horse from, like, 206 /00 L&I - BILL 2 9:30, 10 o'clock in the morning go in, go to stable back around o'clock. And the other horse 4 can go out -- different horse -- from 7 until 12 5 o'clock.
So even though you rotate them, a horse -- one horse that's rotated could be out a maximum of ten hours.
Could be. But in other words, you could rotate then so that there would be shorter hours.
And most of the time, really, the horses, when they go out from 10 o'clock to 5 o'clock, they're not all constantly on rides; they take a rest in between rides and the other. Not all the time they really working; they take a rest in between.
So some of those horses 207 /00 L&I - BILL 2 are standing and not being used.
You never change horses on location, do you? In other words, you never would unharness a horse on the street and put them --