Very good. And let me question Councilman Ortiz. What is your expertise to be on that? You rode horses when you were young, in New York?
All right. He bet? I think he placed some bets on the horses somewhere along the line.
Let me read to you. It says -- this is the Animal Advisory Committee: Two members shall be appointed as representatives of community organizations. Two members shall be appointed as representatives of animal humane societies and animal shelters. One member shall be appointed as a representative of private veterinarians or veterinary hospital. Two members shall be appointed as representative of stables, kennels, or other businesses primarily concerned with animals. One member shall be appointed as a 63 /00 L&I - BILL 2 representative of the Department of Licenses and Inspections. Two members shall be appointed as representatives of animal clubs or organizations, which we also have. And then it talks about the responsibilities, if you want me to continue to read.
No, no, I get the point, but this has been -- let me just tell you as an outsider, and please don't be offended. You know, when I see these horses when I'm driving down to DiCicco's house, and either I can't get around them, and I told that when the people came in. I said I don't really have a problem and I understand the purpose here, and hopefully some of my colleagues feel the same way. We understand and we understand what's trying to happen, but we don't know a whole lot about this. I'm just shocked that there's an advisory council for this.
That there's a board, an advisory committee. I mean, I'm not 64 /00 L&I - BILL 2 shocked glad to know that. Is the person -- Otis is here from L&I; is he on this board?
Not it's someone else, by the name of Robert Pili who's on there, from L&I.
I know Robert Pili. But I've been reading a lot in the -- well, I've seen a lot on the news about this and it seems that there's been a lot of media attention being brought to this. At this point, there's somebody that got convicted yesterday, you testified -- for being cruel to animals, was it?
My point is, with all this media attention and the good Councilman doing this, aren't most of the -- for, say, lack of better words, the bad actor's out of this business? Or are they hanging around looking to 65 /00 L&I - BILL 2 shoot back, which his bill may help work it out? My concern here is there's somebody -- there has to be somebody here in -- the Health Department testified that there's one good guy, another almost as good guy, and somebody else just hanging in there. So out of the five people, the two scumbags are gone, correct?
Well, we don't know that. We would like to think so but we're not sure about that. And by the way, Councilman, we're not --
You got to be a scumbag to be mean to a horse, really.
We're not here really to separate the good from the bad. This is legislation that applies to any carriage company that would even want to open for business down the road, and we would like the bad companies to be totally out of business. And Mr. Slocum does have a very good operation, but it's not about Mr. Slocum and it's not about any of the carriage companies.
And which one 66 /00 L&I - BILL 2 would Slocum -- Slocum's the good guy? You say "good guy," 'cause I'm not sure who that is yet. We'll get to that.
I've never called him "a good guy," but he's got the best-looking horses and the best stables, and he knows that.
So he's probably a pretty intelligent businessman and he figures if he get he keeps the horses -- when he gets up here, I see his name -- if the horses are healthy and he takes care of 'em, we don't chase him around, you don't chase him around, and he gets to stay in business in the City of Philadelphia?
And I'll bet you he's the guy that's -- and I don't know this, but I'll bet you he's the guy that the Parks Service -- he has the -- whatever the license from the Park Service, am I correct in assuming that?
I think that's correct, yes. However, his carriages, too, go off limit -- again, off routes and do all the things that the other carriages do.
Are any of the bad 67 /00 L&I - BILL 2 actors or scumbags here today? Stand up, please. (Laughter.)
So the only one here is the good guy? Which one's the good guy? Stand up. (Mr. Slocum stands up.)
Oh, the guy with the nicest suit, okay, I get it. I made you stand up. I'm not trying to make light of this, but we don't do this every day and we're trying to -- with the wisdom of Solomon, we have to bring all this information in and figure out exactly what's going on. And for lack of better words, you really care about this issue.
I care about some issues -- I have to care about all of the issues and all these other Councilpeople. And now that I know that Councilman Ortiz expert in this, we will 68 /00 L&I - BILL 2 be acquiesced in some of this to him.
I have this picture in my mind of Angel Ortiz on a horse with a cowboy hat that I can't get out of my head -- and it wouldn't be a carriage horse, right?
Okay, okay, but that's where we are, correct? I mean, we have some guys that are trying to do a good job and we're fighting about degrees, two degrees, where the temperature's going to be. I got a feeling Frank's not going to make any -- Councilman DiCicco's not going to make everybody happy here today, as he said at the beginning.
But at the end of the day, we're not talking about the good guys or the good people: it's the animals. And I think that gets lost in the translation along --
No, no, I think we understand that. I mean, not myself and my God knows how I feel about specific things -- in this 69 /00 L&I - BILL 2 case, horses. You're talking a little about New York City.
They had a problem in New York City and you said they lowered the temperature? Did you say that?
They actually don't have good stables but they have very good regulations, and we've got the reverse here: we're cleaning up the stables now but we have lousy regulations.
So as a legislator, I would think regulations would make the stables better. Why do you think --
That doesn't consider the horses' care when they're out on the street in high temperatures or low temperatures or the 70 /00 L&I - BILL 2 number of hours worked.
You were telling me about temperature a couple minutes ago, and in New York, the temperature's lower, 90 to 89 degrees?
They have stables which aren't meeting requirements, and they're about to clean theirs up, too.
So what someone else testified, and maybe the Councilman said, if you take care of 'em and you do everything, they may possibly be able to be out there a better taken care of horse, maybe they'll be out there in a little higher temperature than a horse that is not taken care of.
Well, once again -- and I'd like to address that specifically because you 71 /00 L&I - BILL 2 speak to any vet, as you've heard today, and they will tell you that a well maintained, well cared for, well fed horse can be out in pretty high temperatures, and as an ex-marathon runner, I used to run in very high temperatures for very long distances, but I chose to do that. When a horse is out there, they don't have that choice. And as far as we're concerned, the temperature for a horse that is out for an hour at -- if it's 94 degrees and a horse is being worked for just an hour and it's being ridden, that's a big difference than being out pulling a heavy load for four hours. That's the big difference here.
Let me ask you this. What I'm getting here is a feeling that -- is there any room to compromise at all between the carriage companies and the Advisory Board? Or is it our way or no way. I mean, save us a lot of problems 'cause we're going to do what we want anyway, to be honest with you. We don't know anything about horses, we're going to take in -- Angel does, but we're going to take in what you give us today and digest it and make some kind of decision and get it out of this committee with a 72 /00 L&I - BILL 2 favorable or a non-favorable recommendation, maybe with some amendments. But if I said to you now, Look, off the record, but it's on the record because she's taking it so be careful what you say, but if we could go over there in the back room and -- we wouldn't smoke cigars or anything 'cause we don't did that anymore but --
Is there a deal, can we do something here? Is there a compromise, not deal 'cause that never sounds -- compromise, or is it "take it or leave it"?
No, we'd -- I think we'd like to talk about it further, but we'd like to see what's on the table.
And we're practical people. At the end of the day, we want to get a better deal for the horses than they've got right now.
But we also to want it to go, you know, way out of whack and have the same 73 /00 L&I - BILL 2 problem twelve months from now.
That's understandable. I appreciate your candor and your honesty. Like, again, this isn't in my expertise, and I'm also trying to, you know, feel for the horses, but I'm also trying to feel a little bit for the one good guy or the guy in the nice suit there --
-- who stood up because he does create some revenue for here that pays my salary and some of the police people and some of the firemen and the guys that clean up the horse manure.
Well, unfortunately, the horses are also costing the taxpayers money 'cause we're footing the bill right now.
Probably. Well, if we get rid of them bad actors, that won't happen. Any other questions for these witnesses? Councilman Rizzo? 74 /00 L&I - BILL 2
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The -- I had a conversation with Councilman DiCicco and we discussed the fact that in Central Park in New York, where many of the carriage operators --
Fifth Avenue. That that they are also protected by vegetation, by trees and --
I would assume that 90 degrees in the sun is a lot different than 90 degrees in the shade.
Big difference. I'm not an expert on temperature, regardless of Mr. Mariano's contention, but I would like to say that there is a significant difference -- any human knows that, too.
So whatever temperature we come up with, if a horse is standing or traveling on one of the streets that 75 /00 L&I - BILL 2 are not protected by buildings, not protected by a shade tree -- I understand the staging area is, where the horses are staged, that there are trees that give them some --
Some partial protection. The staging area has yet to be defined but the current staging area doesn't have as many trees as the previous, on Sixth Street.
But my point being that in many cases, on a very hot, clear summer day, these horses are in direct sunlight for most of their day out on their beat.
Probably about two-thirds to three-quarters of the time, yes.
So, again, that temperature is even beyond the threshold of what we're trying to establish here. Who knows what the temperature of a horse standing at an intersection at Fifth and whatever street would be subjected to. So you have to take that into consideration, that some horses that work in some cities aren't exposed to the same environmental conditions that the horses in this city are.
Sure, absolutely, because 76 /00 L&I - BILL 2 the surface on the streets in Central Park are a little different than the tar and macadam that we have in parts of Philadelphia, where you have you have that radiant heat; you have a heat that is really, really high.
I just wanted to make that point, about the horses being out there in the sunlight.
I'm sorry, excuse me. Before I move on, one of my colleagues, Councilwoman Blondell Reynolds Brown, wanted to say something.
Good afternoon. History is really important, and I've just learned from my colleague here that the discussion dialogue from the debate around this issue has been going on for more now than 21 months. So given what I've read in the paper, 22 what I've tried to follow in the paper and my 23 limited understanding, I do need to hear the 24 answer to Chairman Mariano's question. Is there any room for compromise? Has either side sat down 77 /00 L&I - BILL 2 face to face with the opposite opinion to examine, talk through the possibility of a compromise?
In fact, there was a meeting that -- it was a subcommittee that Councilman DiCicco asked to be put together, which included the Mayor's Animal Advisory Committee, which included myself and Chairperson Phillips, together with the Department of Health and also the 76 Carriage Company representatives, and we actually did agree on the 9 hours in harness and a couple of other issues, close to the low- temperature issue. The only issue that we were in contention over was the high-temperature issue.
But is there room for compromise? If we can get a lot of things that will benefit the horses, then we would have to seriously consider that.
Seriously have to consider what? You say "that," what's "that"?
Whatever the recommendations might be. For instance, 94 is too high, 93 is too high, 92 is still too high, but anything under that would be worthy of 78 /00 L&I - BILL 2 consideration.
Just for the Councilwoman's -- the first bill, I think I introduced a bill back in '97 or '98 was the first bill?
And in that bill, I had recommended a temperature of 92.
And then in subsequent, 90. So we've been moving around where. It winds up today, I don't know yet, but we all agree that it should be lower than 94. I think that's the one thing I can say with certainty at this point. Somewhere between the 90 and 94 or 93 is where I think we're going to wind up with today. I mean, I'm not prejudging what the committee will do. 79 /00 L&I - BILL 2 But so that you understand, there was movement, there was some compromise, although it may not have been very well received by most people, but we did move from the 94 to 92, and now we're talking at 90. So we have been making some progress, I believe.
What I'd like to add to that, if I could, just very briefly is that every other major city, except one, is 90 degrees or less. I think there may be two other cities: one is 94-95, one is 92, and all the others are 85 to 89, maybe 90. And that's why we don't want to be on the bad end of that scale. Thank you for your time.
Mr. Bush Bell? Any other questions for these witnesses? (No further questions.)
Seeing done, Mr. Bush Bell and Mr. Washington. (Witnesses come forward.)
Good afternoon. My name is Bush Bell, and I'm the General Manager at the Sheraton Society Hill, at Second and Dock Streets. Thank you all very much for allowing me 80 /00 L&I - BILL 2 to appear today. I'm also speaking on behalf of the Greater Philadelphia Hotel Association, whose members include the general managers from every major hotel in Philadelphia and in the region. My hotel attracts a mix of business travelers and conventioneers and tourists, and we welcome and host over 100 tours that come to our hotel throughout the year, and these tours typically start in New York or Washington, and then spend one night in Philadelphia as they move on to rest of their nights on their tour. And many hotels if Philadelphia, or course, tour groups. In my opinion, the horse and carriage rides are a valuable and very important amenity that are enjoyed by many of our visitors to our hotel as well as to the City. And in our case, tour groups contract with the 76 Carriage Company and provide regular carriage tours to our guests, departing from our hotel in Society Hill. Other guests and travelers that stay with us look forward to these rides as well, and they ask our concierge to make arrangements for the carriages to come and pick them up at the hotel, or in many 81 /00 L&I - BILL 2 cases, they go up to the staging area at Independence Mall. While we at the Sheraton Society Hill and the Greater Philadelphia Hotel Association are not blind to the problems that exist in the carriage industry, we do see that some horses do appear unhealthy and that we know that traffic does have to move around the carriages. However, the hotel industry believes that the City should work with the carriage industry to improve the treatment of their horses rather than the limits that are proposed under the current amendment. If a horses are sick and poorly treated, then, by all means, they should be taken off the streets and the operators need to be dealt with, but limiting the carriages -- they said also say limit the carriages from busiest thoroughfares throughout the rush hours. And we need to find ways to deal with the smells that are created by horses. In our view, the bill currently before Council addresses these problems but it goes too far. By banning carriages for long periods during weekday mornings and afternoons, many of our 82 /00 L&I - BILL 2 guests will be unable to enjoy carriage rides, and it's inconvenient for customers to wait until 10 a.m. to take their morning rides or until late in the afternoon, after 7, to do so. And travelers will many times just skip the opportunity of taking carriage rides, which is -- as they are unable to fit it into their schedule. And as a result, they may spend less time in Philadelphia -- as we all know, we're trying to get more people to spend more time -- and they won't be able to enjoy the shops and restaurant and other find amenities that our city has to offer. It's also important that carriages continue to be available outside the historic area of Philadelphia. Weddings and other special events at hotels in the Rittenhouse area and beyond frequently request horse and carriages to take the bridal party, VIPs, and other guests to and from receptions. And these events are frequently in the evenings and on the weekends, but in many cases, they occur on weekdays as well. And we hope that the City will allow carriage companies to continue to provide these unique services. 83 /00 L&I - BILL 2 In summary, I feel that the carriage industry is an important amenity that the City has to offer, as there are many amenities that our city has. However, it's the combination of all of these amenities that make Philadelphia such a great tourist destination. That's the end of my statement and I'll be glad to take any questions that you may have.
I don't think that the legislation goes to elimination of the carriages and the carriage rides, but I would like you, if you can, to make clear to the panel what is it that you're for and what is it that you're against in terms of the legislation. And I imagine that you're for some type of regulation of the industry.
Oh, absolutely. I clearly believe as -- you know, I work in Center City and as I'm going to and from work, I'm behind carriages and I drive down (unintelligible) Street every day, and there are horses that are clearly not treated well, and those horses should be 84 /00 L&I - BILL 2 removed from service. And if the stables are unhealthy then, yes, there clearly needs to be stronger regulations to protect those animals because, unfortunately, there are some operators that don't have the animals' best interests in mind.
Do you believe that there are certain weather conditions under which the horses or anyone should not be outside working and plying a trade?
Well, I mean, that's kind of a loaded question. Of course, there are certain weather conditions that people shouldn't be involved in strenuous activities. What that level is, I don't have the expertise to make a comment on that, I'd prefer not to. I'll leave that up to the experts to make that recommendation.
But do you believe that some sort of regulation in terms of temperatures that would make it healthier for horses to be in much more humane conditions, that temperatures have to do with conditions that can hurt horses and their health and their condition?
Yes, I do believe that 85 /00 L&I - BILL 2 temperature plays an impact is it 94 or 92, 89? I'm not qualified to make a recommendation to that, and I shouldn't.
So if the panel here recommends legislation that says above 90 degrees, horses should not be out, you wouldn't have a problem with that.
Well, one concern I would have is the -- when the -- the impact that that would have on the overall availability of carriages. And I know that there are, you know, many days when the temperature will exceed 90 degrees, and there are still tourists in the historic park, there are still tourists in Old City that want to enjoy their time there, and the carriage rides currently are an important part of their experience in Philadelphia. You know, there would be many, many days that it would be over 90 degrees or within this window, and that would be my concern. People come to Philadelphia to enjoy their time, and the carriage ride is an important part of their stay.
I don't think anyone on the panel wants to outlaw them 'cause I enjoy 86 /00 L&I - BILL 2 carriage rides. I like to take the kids around Center City and Independence Park and so on. And when my nephews come from other parts of the country, I like to take them in. But there are certain conditions that have to be adhered to because we want the horses to be healthy. We don't want to be able, you know, either to exploit horses. There are not many days, really, during the year really that are really above 91 degrees. For example, I have a page here that in 1999, there were days during the year that were above 14 91 degrees and 18 days above 93 degrees and 11 15 days above 94 degrees. I think -- I think there 16 is a correlation, I believe, and I think the 17 medical and veterinarians will do that between 18 heat, humidity, and the ability of animals to be 19 able to perform. 20 And if we want to have a very viable 21 tourist trade, we should have at least the most 22 humane regulations possible. Don't do you believe 23 in that? 24
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I had a quick couple questions. I don't know if you can answer both of them. One of them -- I heard the testimony speak of the tourist industry, and you in particular spoke of that.
One, I'd like to get a sense of how many tourists, say, for instance, a week would request a carriage ride.
Well, in our hotel, we do over -- specific bus tour groups exceed 100 every year, and there's typically to 30 people that 17 would be in that tour group. 18
That specifically request carriage rides. As a matter of fact, it's their only scheduled event for our primary tour guide, which brings about 90 of the tours to our hotel. 88 /00 L&I - BILL 2 The only scheduled activity that they have in the City of Philadelphia is the carriage ride, at least from our hotel.
Okay. And the second question related to that is -- and, I don't know, maybe somebody who knows more about the industry can answer that. How much -- how dependent is their business on the tourism aspect of that particular carriage ride versus just a couple that's down the street or my or my colleague Councilman Ortiz from time to time?
Well, I don't want to mislead you. The tour business in the City of Philadelphia is far exceeded by the convention business travel obviously, yes. Tours in our hotel make up less than 5 percent of our total business. However, it's the leisure travelers that also stay at our hotel that make up a significantly larger part of our business that also enjoy the carriage rides. And many times, they may not even go on a carriage ride, but it creates the whole ambience of what historic Philadelphia is al about, and it's the cobblestone 89 /00 L&I - BILL 2 streets, it's the historical buildings. And they are just walking and enjoying the historic area of Philadelphia, they see horse and carriages go by, and it just creates that ambience that they're looking for. The historical significance of Philadelphia is anchored in place by that.
And if you -- I don't know if someone from the carriage ride business is going to testify later Mr. Chairman -- okay, I'll ask that question of them at that time. Thank you.
Any other questions for this witness? (No further questions.)
Hi. Good afternoon. To the Chairman and members of the committee, thank you for allowing me to --
Certainly. My name is Patricia Washington, and I'm the Vice President of Grants and Partnerships for the Greater Philadelphia Tourism Marketing Corporation. I'll 90 /00 L&I - BILL 2 move up a little bit so you can hear me. I bring you remarks on behalf of our president and CEO Meryl Levitz, who was unable to join us today due to another commitment. In my capacity at GPTMC, I work very closely with many of our tourism partners who might potentially be affected by the changes being proposed in the new carriage bill. Let me begin by applauding the actions of Council to properly regulate Philadelphia's horse carriage industry. The historic fabric of the City is what visitors say they like most about coming here, and carriage tours are a big part of what makes our city an attractive and a historic destination. They add -- as my colleague Mr. Bush said, they add to the ambience that makes the Independence Park area one of the most popular places to visit among travelers. It is within the spirit of preserving the character of what is known as "America's most historic mile" that we urge the committee to modify some of the suggested provisions of the proposed bill. First, we would recommend adjusting the proposed times under which the carriages would be 91 /00 L&I - BILL 2 allowed to operate. The proposed times would ban carriages during times when they currently accommodate the greatest number of visitors, which may jeopardize the services for which many of the local and national tour companies have been engaged to perform. We will be, in effect, altering the tourism product in such a manner that it may not be as attractive a package to our guests, which include the tour companies and the overnight guests they serve, along with unscheduled groups, conventioneers, leisure travelers, and residents. Timing in this instance is everything and we urge the committee to work with all effected parties in developing a schedule that better addresses these concerns. Other changes being proposed by this bill include adjusting the routes and limiting the conditions under which the carriages operate. While we would support any changes which would ensure the safety of the animals, the safety of the public, and the demands of our visiting tourists, we believe that serving the interest of one at the expense of the other will cause greater conflict, where cooperation is essential. 92 /00 L&I - BILL 2 We cannot offer solutions; however, we believe it is our goal to urge the conversation to continue in reaching a common ground that balances the needs of the City and its growing tourism industry. I thank you for the opportunity to address you today, and I'm open for questions.
Would you be more specific as to what your recommendations are? Because you mention certain times and so on, but you did not say which times you preferred.
Well, we're not in a position to advocate for one specific time over another.
Well, we know that, based on what's in the bill, that it would cause carriages to shut down during the afternoon hours, and common sense tells us that that's when most visitors are interested in taking carriage rides -- in the afternoon, early evenings.
Do you have anything 93 /00 L&I - BILL 2 other than common sense to tell you that?
We, don't currently track the number of visitors that utilize the carriage services; that's not one of the things that we track in our research.
But in order for us to be able to arrive at a decision, we depend on individuals such as yourself and the gentleman who are in the tourist industry to help us, because you have an expertise as to when the tourists are here, when they go up, when they're available and so on and which times they go to your concierge and ask for certain activities and so on. To testify that the times and the legislation are not adequate and then not give very specific times as to where the adequacy should be and what time those hours should be really leaves us up in the air.
And our -- you know, and then we are going to have to make a decision and we would like to make it -- some of us would like to make it at least with the most information and when it is best for both the industry, the 94 /00 L&I - BILL 2 tourist industry, and the animals, and -- because we consider the health and safety of the animals important, some of us do that. So we would like to find out, you know, when is the best time available.
Councilman, I can respond to that specifically about our hotel. And, as I said, the major tour groups that we have staying with us, they have the carriages pick them up between 8 and 8:30 in the morning, and they go on -- typically it's an hour tour of Old City and Society Hill, and they return back to the hotel, and then they have the whole day in front of them to enjoy Philadelphia. My concern is that the current proposals do limit the times from 3:30 till 6, and then again after 9, and then the travel time in between the carriages really stretches out between the stables another 30 minutes on each side. I think that clearly the times that people want to -- they want to have an opportunity to enjoy the carriages as much as possible. Yes, I think there should be some restrictions, but I currently feel that the 95 /00 L&I - BILL 2 current restrictions you have in place are much too broad. 7 to 9:30 in the morning and then 3:30 to and then again after o'clock, I think, is 5 just too long, and we want to --- our guests want 6 to enjoy Philadelphia, and we're just limiting the 7 amount of time they can use this very important 8 amenity. 9
Well, I don't think -- Councilman DiCicco draft this and I've gotten to know him very well since he's gotten here, and I don't think in his legislation he usually makes up things out of thin air. The hours that he has in there are probably because he has gone through a process of investigation and negotiations with the industry and, I would hope, people from the tourist industry. If there is -- if that is not what you are thinking about or accepting, we would like more definitive answers than just speculation.
Well, in this case, then you should ask the operators what their key peak times are. I can tell you when our guests use it, our primary users of the industry are. But ask the gentleman who follows us 96 /00 L&I - BILL 2 what times they use 'em. You know, if you're concerned about traffic, I would have to assume that the Councilman has talked to the Police Department to find out when the key traffic periods are and then let that guide you. To ask me anecdotally to provide information -- I don't think -- I don't have that.
Thank you. You mentioned when you -- that some tours may start as early as 8:30 in the morning?
Do you know about those tours in advance generally, or are they impulse things?
But the bill 20 provides that special permits can be obtained in advance of the bookings. So if someone, as an example, wanted to book a carriage or carriages -- the proposed legislation has ten days and I think we're going to modify that down a little bit, but in either event, there is at least a minimum of 97 /00 L&I - BILL 2 five days in which a special permit can be requested.
I see Josh Grimes shaking his head no. You want to comment on that, Josh? You can come to the table now.
While Josh is coming up, though, I just -- the reason, and I think, Mr. Bell, you hit on it was -- one of the reasons that we looked at the prohibited hours in the morning and the afternoon basically had to do with traffic control and the issues concerning the safety of the horses as well as the passengers in the carriages at rush hour. And from my personal observation, as an example, on many occasions, I took the time to go out into the area where the carriages are operating in during the hours that present legislation prohibits them to be there and -- I'll refer to my earlier statement -- if the carriage companies all acted in the manner in which 76 Carriage Company did, we probably wouldn't be here today, except for maybe the 98 /00 L&I - BILL 2 temperature issue. But I've observed it on many occasions, and I went out specifically to observe Race Street at 4:30 in the afternoon and 5 o'clock mountain in the evening, at the height of the traffic. And Race Street is a major artery to take traffic out of Center City and to get it onto 95 or Columbus Boulevard. It's amazing, it is amazing that no 10 one or no animal has been killed or injured as a result of the congestion that is caused there. And you might be right that visitors and tourists would rather be out there at that time, but they might not understand it, but it's really in their interests that we prohibit the carriages from certain routes during certain times because of the congestion and the problems related with vehicular traffic and the accidents that could be involved as a result of the carriages mixing in with the traffic. So, again, I've been a promoter of economic development and hotel industry and most of it occurs in my district. So, again, as Councilman Ortiz said, we're trying to get some -- even though we've been working on this and I've 99 /00 L&I - BILL 2 been working on it for the better part of two years, I've still come to some road blocks in my decision, my final decision-making as to some of the recommendations in this bill in front of us today on the hours of operation or the prohibited hours and the routes. We're actually still tinkering with it as we're speaking today. This committee will make some recommendations, I assume, for a final vote of the bill out of committee favorably or unfavorably, and that's why we're asking those questions. In the evening, as an example, I mean, the police obviously have an issue and why they suggested that the hours of operation end at 9 p.m. because it gets darker, at 9 o'clock especially, and in the winter, it gets darker even earlier, but we're trying to find that balance between the daylight savings time and standard times to allow these carriages to operate. Because in the evening -- you know, it could be 94 in the afternoon but by the time it gets to be 8 o'clock at night, it's much cooler, and the industry can continue to operate and people can continue to take advantage of the carriages. So 100 /00 L&I - BILL 2 you know it's kind of fluid at times, I think, this whole thing. I appreciate your testimony but, again, that's why we asked you to be here today, and I do appreciate both of you being here today, to try to get some additional information before the final decision is made. (Mr. Grimes comes forward.)
Mr. Grimes, you were shaking head. I think I know where you're going, but --
Councilman, if you don't mind, I'd like to offer a point of clarification.
For the record, I'm Joshua Grimes. I am here today as counsel for 76 Carriage. Councilman, you know, I really hesitate to clarify issues that you or any other member of Council bring up, but under your bill, as it's proposed now, you would -- a carriage company would not be able to get a permit during the prohibited hours, which, in the morning include 7 101 /00 L&I - BILL 2 in the morning to 9:30 a.m. So, in fact, a tour company wanting to take a tour at the Society Hill Sheraton at 8:30, in fact, could not do that tour under this bill as it's presently written. So I just wanted to clarify that.
I realized that after I said it and I saw you shaking you're head that I was --
Thank you, Mr. Grimes. Any other questions? Councilman Rizzo.
I'll take advantage of Counselor Grimes being on the stand with us. In reference to your memo about above 90 degree 30 days, let's say that during the time of operation, it's 85 degrees and it then hits 94 degrees for 3 hours of the day and then above 90 degree days. You said it's 30 days off the street according to the arithmetic. Are you talking because it reached that one day at sometime late afternoon 90 degrees, did you count that as a day?
Yeah. Councilman, I got these statistics from the National Weather 102 /00 L&I - BILL 2 Service. And, in fact, I don't have the times that it reached those temperatures, but I think for the effect of this -- and I offered these statistics soley because Councilman DiCicco asked for them.
But I think the -- if I may, the consequences that the carriages, as I understand it, are directed to leave the street and go back to the stables when it reaches this temperature. So even if it only reaches that temperature for an hour at 4 in the afternoon, under the current rules, I believe they're off the streets for all intents and purposes probably at least an hour and a half because they have to go back to the stables and wait.
So I think -- I think, you know, we really -- it's kind of skewed here because it's 30 days for 4 hours isn't a whole day. 103 /00 L&I - BILL 2
That's correct. As I say, this was offered, and I had not realized this would be offered to all the Councilpeople, so I apologize if it's misleading, but --
No, I offered it to them to give them a sense of what the possibility or the potential for carriages not to be able to operate, because there's a business -- there is a business issue being discussed here as part of this entire legislation and what but the impact on the industry would be, and I thought it would be best to share that with them so they get a sense of --
I'm William Hawkins. I did a study of the last three years '97, '8, and '9, and in 1999, 90 degrees and above, there were 29 days; 1998, 14; 1997, 13 that were above 90 degrees, 90 and above. And Councilman Rizzo is exactly right; 104 /00 L&I - BILL 2 those are partial days, so it become a smaller percentage of a smaller number of days. 1999 was an extraordinarily hot year, which is why it was excessively high as far as the 29 days.
Excuse me. Mr. Hawkins, I'm not trying to be sarcastic, but where did you get your temperature from?
Bill, why do I think you have a thermometer in every room?
But you're close. 105 /00 L&I - BILL 2 You have 29, (unintelligible) says 20 and you had 30, so we're not miles apart.
Any more questions from the committee? (No further questions.)
Seeing none, the next group is Dr. Ellen Buck, Leslie Fleisher, David Cantor and Roberta Spivek and Leslie Fleisher. Let's try to squeeze everybody up here. If you're at odds, don't fight. (Witnesses come forward.)
I'm Dr. Ellen Buck, and I'm here to speak on behalf of the Humane Society of the United States. I'm the Director of Equine Protection for HSUS. Our offices are in Washington, DC. I'm a licensed veterinarian and I have been for the past 14 years. In the first seven years of my career, I was in private practice on strictly horses, including race track practice, so I was biting my tongue during some of the earlier conversation here. After seven years in private 106 /00 L&I - BILL 2 practice, I joined the Food and Drug Administration, where I worked on animal drug development, dog, cat and horse development for five years. And a little more than a year ago, I took the position with HSUS as Director of Equine Protection. In that capacity, I develop and represent for the organization all of their views on domestic horse issues -- carriage horses being one part of that. So I'm not as prepared as I would like to be because I have to cover the entire spectrum of equine issues for the organization, not just carriage horses. So this has been thrown together a little bit quickly here right now today. Let's see. Carriage horses, I just want to say, were actually the initiating factor in the development of the humane movement -- this might be a little more history than you care to hear, but the ASPCA was founded in the 1800s to respond to the needs of carriage horses in New York City, so they have been the driving force behind all humane movements and are a continuing problem here in the year 2000. 107 /00 L&I - BILL 2 From my office -- and, again, I am in the central office, and I came up here as a favor to one of our regional offices that deals with the Philadelphia. I had been contacted by folks in Philadelphia about this issue before, but I just wanted to say that I get complaints from Hawaii to New York with complaints about the carriage-horse issues. I have ongoing complaints and have had dialogue with people working on carriage-horse issues in Bermuda; Little Rock, Arkansas; Mackinaw Island, Michigan; New Orleans, Honolulu; and last year, in the height of the heat, had a complaint from someone in New York City because of carriage horses still being on the street despite the temperature having surpassed their threshold requirement. There's not a lot I can do about it at that point, but it an ongoing problem all across the country. The point of view of my organization is primarily that we would prefer not to see carriage horses in urban areas. It's a concern about the horses, the horses trying to work in traffic, horses working in congestion and with the fumes, 108 /00 L&I - BILL 2 and horses primarily with the high temperatures, and also the bad footing. But we recognize that in a lot of cities, it is going to -- it's going to continue; Philadelphia being one of those cities, New York being one of those cities. So in most cases, we try to work with you all to develop the most humane possible regulations with the interest of the horses in mind. So I'm not here to tell you to throw your entire carriage industry out, but I would like to encourage you to make the most humane possible laws that you can. You have to recognize -- tourism is a concern here. But you have to recognize that there's more than 7 million members of the Humane Society of the United States, that are -- some of whom wind up calling me with complaints about this, so you're concerned about maintaining a positive image in your tourist industry, but you also have to recognize that a bad carriage industry also reflects very badly on your city. Those are the people that call me. I have people calling and saying they will never return to such-and-such place because of what they saw. So you do have to be concerned about that. It as an 109 /00 L&I - BILL 2 equal impact to negatively impact on your tourist industry as it does to positively impact it. I'd like to address primarily in my discussion here the issue of high temperature.
I actually have a package of information that I'll give you all at the end here -- I meant to pass it out before here -- a letter on our letterhead on behalf of most of the proposed regulations. But you do have pretty much the highest temperature threshold of any city that I could come across. I did pull out the regs and I've included them in the package of information for Washington, DC and for Cleveland, Ohio. In Washington, the high threshold is 89. Cleveland has a very comprehensive, very carefully worded carriage-horse regulation. Their high temperature threshold is 85, and the initiating factor for their regulations that have been developed was an unpleasant accident involving humans and horses some years back. Contrary to --
So do they still have a horse carriage business out there or --
I'm not certain. This was fairly recent, so -- and, again, you know, Washington, DC and every other city. As has been pointed out, regulating the temperature really has not put these organizations out of business.
Okay, just curious. Thank you. I didn't mean to interrupt you, I just --
Let's see, okay. I have with me -- and I won't bore you with this too much, but I did a literature source for information on horses exercising in heat, and it turns out there's a considerable body of medical literature on that issue. The initiating factor for that was, when it was announced that the Olympics were going 111 /00 L&I - BILL 2 to be held in Atlanta in 1996, there was considerable concern about the effect on the horses competing in the heat in the equestrian phases of the Olympics so that you need a real economic incentive to initiate a lot of animal research, and that was the factor that started a lot of that. They did a lot of studies measuring specific parameters of horses' body temperature, core body temperature, sweating, everything you can imagine -- more than you can imagine, because it's heavy science -- in horses exercises in low temperature and low humidity, moderate temperature and moderate humidity, and high temperature and high humidity. The threshold standard that they used in numerous studies -- and, again, I have the abstracts here with me that I'll provide you with. The high temperature threshold was 30 degrees Centigrade, which is 86 degrees Fahrenheit. That was considered a high temperature extreme for these horses working. They weren't working for periods of 8 or 9 hours; these were fit race horses that were exercised in a structured amount of time, usually about 45 112 /00 L&I - BILL 2 minutes. And in 45 minutes at the high temperature and high humidity threshold, they were able to get body temperature up to a critical point where they had to stop exercising. So 86 degrees with exercise is a considerably high temperature for a horse. The other point that some of these studies make is, we make the comparison between people and their ability to exercise in heat and horses. There is some tremendous similarities, but the fact is, horses are not as able to dissipate heat as humans; horses are less heat-tolerant than we are. So because of the shape of their body, their muscle mass, they can't tolerate heat even as well as we can. You're talking about taking your temperature threshold from 95 and perhaps making it as high as 92. I would maintain that I think 89 would be much better. I certainly don't believe you should go above 90. And, again, high temperature, high humidity in research studies has been considered 86 degrees. I've even got some finished studies where it was about 82 degrees as the high temperature threshold there. 113 /00 L&I - BILL 2 And, again, the other factor is, you're talking about riding horses, and I've ridden my horses in the heat as high as 94. I've also came close one time in very high humidity to, with light exercise, putting in one of my horses in heat stress, which was a very scary thing because I didn't have access where I was riding. In the woods and in the shade, I didn't have access to any of my equipment and cooling. And that's also a problem in the City. You don't want to push these horses to the point of heat stress because who's going to come in and save them? You need large quantities of water, you need intravenous fluids. The studies that I've cited here were controlled circumstances and fit horses. And one more point about the fit horses is, thoroughbred horses and light-bodied horses actually are able to control their body temperature and dissipate the heat more readily than draft horses. The heavier breeds of horses, the kinds that tend to be carriage horses are less tolerant of heat, even on a light breed of horse or riding breed of horse. 114 /00 L&I - BILL 2 Let's see what else I have here. The other thing we do too with riding horses is, again, yes, we can ride, but we're ready to jump off and initiate cooling immediately, which they also did in these studies -- hosing and providing fluids. And that's what they did to accommodate Atlanta; they changed the times of work so that they were working in cooler --