you can see it's a it's a dark sort of shadow looking area on the opposite side
of Hillcrest Avenue from the blue arrow, you can see where the stream sort of arcs toward
Hillcrest and then disappears. So that's the location of where that head wall and culvert
are, and the stream goes under Hillcrest Avenue at that point.
And taking your attention to this next screenshot, is this the same as the first screenshot that you
saw just uh zoomed out more yeah yeah that's just a broader view of the of the area
and does this imagery screenshot show the stream as well correct yep same thing um on this one
you can actually see the other end of the stream um further east on hillcrest avenue where it
daylights, um, as indicated on the previous map that you had on screen.
Now I'm going to take your attention to the city's swales and stream map,
which is, uh, at, uh, tab number 10 in the materials for the board's
reference. Um, are you familiar with the city's swales and stream map?
yes okay is this a sealed or a stamped map not that I'm aware of is there a
legend on it not that I have seen is there a compass I mean not in this view
i don't know if there is one on the actual overall map does this map show the bank of a stream no
does this map show a culvert no
is there anything else that you could tell us about this map
no other than it's just uh you know sort of a schematic of the of the stream and the um
hillcrest avenue roadway and contour lines on the map indicating the elevations
in your opinion is this map accurate
I don't think it depicts the accurate location of the stream at the location in question.
And is that your opinion based on a reasonable degree of certainty?
another question for you mr henry section 14-510 of the philadelphia zoning code
states that the commission shall maintain the official wissahickon watershed overlay map
what is your understanding of the word maintain when it comes to maps
objection beyond his expertise he's not an expert on the law well then i would ask if if he is
familiar with this um this term with with his experience as maps the board has recognized him
as an expert in surveying and maps i would object on the basis that this has nothing to do with a
map she's asking for a legal interpretation of the code which is solely the purview of l and i and
requires substantial deference.
Yeah, so I agree with that, Dawn.
I have no further questions.
Questions from Sean?
I have no questions, Leonard. No question.
Next witness. Thank you.
Thank you. I would call.
Okay, there are 2 names.
There are two people with the same name, Shandor Zalay.
I'm going to promote the first one.
They're coming in as a panelist.
Thank you.
shane doors la you're allowed to speak good morning could you please stay
i'd say you have two devices on you're gonna have to shut one off okay okay
Sir, could you please state your name and spell for the stenographer?
My name is Chondor Saleh.
Could you spell it, please?
Sir could you spell your name?
Can you hear me?
I think he can hear you.
you might have to go out and come back in
hello yes could you please state your name it's not hearing any audio back okay um what's there
hello we can hear you okay great i can hear you now too thank you all right could you please
spell your name for the stenographer?
Sure. It's S-H-A-N-D-O-R
is the first name.
Saleh is the last name.
S-Z-A-L-A-Y.
Do you swear or affirm to tell the truth,
the whole truth, nothing but the truth?
Please proceed. Counsel?
Thank you.
Mr. Saleh,
could you tell us about your background and training?
I've trained basically in stream restoration and stream management, stormwater management.
I've got degrees from SUNY College of Environmental Science in environmental biology and MS in water resources science from University of Minnesota.
I've done graduate coursework in fluvial geomorphology, which I can also spell that if needed.
and i've been working in consulting could you just tell the board what that really is
yeah sure it's the study of rivers basically and how they move and how they affect the landscape
um so and i've been applying that knowledge and consulting uh in the environmental consulting
business for the last 26 years most of that being in southeastern pennsylvania
I'm also an adjunct professor at Villanova, where I teach a course called River Mechanics
and Engineering, which, again, focuses on fluvial geomorphology.
Chair, in advance of Mr. Saleh's testimony, could I ask for an offer of proof as to relevance
of what he's going to testify to today?
Yeah, why don't, Dawn, could you answer that, please?
So, Mr. Shandor today will be talking about streams and he's going to be talking about
how we determine the starting point in this case.
He's going to be discussing what the stream is and why the starting point is where we've
measured from.
I I guess i'm confused chair because I thought that that's what James Henry just testified to so if I may go ahead so so Mr. Henry did testify and he talked about the measurement right he he did the measurements and the difference here is that Mr.
is talking about why we picked this starting point across the street.
Across the street.
I mean, the city will stipulate to his expertise in stormwater management and the other thing that I can't pronounce the flu fluvial geomorphology.
Exactly. So we're, we're fine with that. I mean, I guess.
we'll reserve objection and just see where this testimony goes it sounds a little duplicative
well that's not the right word but it duplicates the prior testimony a little bit somewhat but um
i believe the difference is that mr henry really prepares measurements i mean he and and he
prepared the measurement based on um all right what's why don't we do this why don't we get
into the testimony. If there's something you disagree with, we'll take a look at it then.
Okay. So why don't we start with this? Okay. Okay. So Mr. Zalay, are you familiar with the
Wissahickon Watershed Overlay? I am. And what is it? So it's a, my understanding is it's part of
the zoning code. An overlay district imposes additional restrictions in a particular geographic
In this case, for the Wissahickon watershed, the idea is to impose more stringent land development and land disturbance regulations with the explicit goal of reducing erosion, reducing sedimentation, and generally reducing and controlling ecological degradation and maintaining water quality within the Wissahickon Creek watershed.
And do you know how long this Wissahickon Watershed overlay has been around?
Yeah, so my understanding is that it was adopted in the 1970s, was based on a 1973 study of the watershed and then adopted shortly thereafter.
Is the purpose today the same as it was in the 1970s?
okay um and does the overlay contain a buffer it does yeah so section it's uh one four dash five
one zero um what this does is it prohibits the construction of impervious ground cover
within 200 feet of the bank of a stream or within 50 feet of the center line of a swale within the
district and are you familiar with 118 hillcrest avenue i am can you describe the property
it's a undeveloped lot off of hillcrest avenue it's a large kind of open space at the moment
grass covered as you can see in the photo with occasional trees and for the
board's reference I'm sharing what's listed as the site photos at tab number
eight within the materials and Mr. Zollet are you familiar with the
surrounding area yes i am and did you prepare a report in this case i did
could you tell the board um what your report states um take us through it what you what you
studied what you reviewed so excuse me and for the board's preference a copy of the report is
included in the materials at tab number six so i was asked to look at the applicability of the
section the over the setback section that we just discussed in the which was a hick and watershed
overlay district to the stream and the property in question so there are a couple of different
questions. One had to do with whether the feature that we're all calling a stream in the Morris
Arboretum is indeed a stream as to the definition in the Philadelphia Zoning Code, which you can
see there, it's any watercourse or portion of a watercourse which drains an area of 64 or more
acres in the lower was second watershed and it's also excludes things like embedded culverts
and so i was asked to essentially weigh in on whether the feature um that we're calling a
stream is indeed a stream per the zoning code which in my opinion it is and i can get into
And I can get into the details of that, but it meets the definition of a stream. And then I was asked to evaluate the applicability of the or the application of the 200 foot setback to that stream, including, as you mentioned, Don, where the offset should be taken and then matters relating to the trajectory of the stream over time and whether that's changed relative to the mapping that is contained within
the details of that but it meets the definition of a stream and then i
uh the streams and swales map as you have you as you've called it
okay so mr zelay uh you determined that the starting point for the 200 foot setback
is at this stream at the edge of the culvert across from 118 hill crest is that correct
perhaps. Okay. And do you know if Mr. Henry's plans measured from the same location that you've
identified as the starting point? Yes, I believe they do. Okay. And do you know if this stream has
ever moved? Well, you know, streams do move over time. So I don't, I can't say that I know if it's
ever moved but what i what i did do and document in this report is i was able to locate photographs
of the stream aerial photographs of the stream dating to 1959 which could clearly depict and
you'll note like there's a pronounced bend in the stream that sort of ensures that the stream is
going to cross hill crest in a perpendicular manner and that bend is clearly visible there's
aerial photograph there in the 1959 photo and that's indeed the same trajectory that i observed
in the field and that i observed uh in current day aerial photography that was reviewed so
in the last you know 60 70 odd years it does not appear to have moved appreciably
from its current location.
I would ask you, are you familiar with the cities, streams, and swales map?
I am, yeah.
I actually inspected the map in person at the Philadelphia Planning Commission offices,
I believe, in December of 2022.
and is this map stamped or sealed no can you tell who made the map
uh i don't recall if there was a signature on the map itself i i don't recall that there was
in your professional opinion is the map accurate there's a couple different elements to this
in terms of accuracy. But with respect to the stream segment that we're referring to,
the streams and swales map does not appear to depict the stream in a manner consistent with
the 1959 aerial photograph or the present day aerial photograph or with my direct observations
of the stream. Specifically, you do not see that characteristic bend that takes the stream
underneath Hillcrest Avenue where it sort of bends towards 118 Hillcrest.
Instead, you see it continue like straight sort of due east into a culvert
that's some distance away from Hillcrest Avenue.
So that's a depiction that's not consistent with the 1959 Aero photograph,
the current day Aero photograph, or what I've observed in the field.
And does this map show the bank of a stream?
it shows the it indicates a stream um with a blue line i don't know that it indicates a bank of a
stream specifically and are your opinions today based on a reasonable degree of certainty yes
yes a high degree of certainty i have uh no further questions questions from other council here
Mr. Zillet, are you aware of when the city's streams and swales map was created?
I believe it was created in 1973.
So it's your opinion today that it was incorrect at the time it was created?
it was incorrect at the time it was created that's my opinion yeah okay and that there
That's my opinion.
really hasn't been any change in the stream it's just that if for instance you had done this work
in the 50s and then did this work today you would find essentially the same characteristics
correct okay and then whoever created this map did so incorrectly yeah it was might have been
an approximate you know like depiction of the stream it wasn't consistent with the observations
that i that were consistent with the aerial photographs in 59 or current day yeah are you
familiar with when the planning commission adopted the use of this map i don't have a specific date
in front of me uh but i believe it was consistent with the adoption of the water watershed overlay
district which i believe was you know immediately or sometime short shortly after the completion of
the study in 1973. okay so so you believe it okay you believe it was sometime in the 1970s
yes we're talking 50 years ago i think we can hedge by five years or so yeah
Yeah, agreed. Thank you. Are you aware of any challenge to the legislation in adopting this map or the creation of this map?
I am not specifically aware, no.
Okay. Thank you very much. I have nothing further.
Council, this is your last witness for the day.
Dawn. Yes, Mr. Chair, I have no further witnesses for today.
Do you have a presentation? Yes, Chairman, I can actually finish. I have two witnesses,
both of whom will be very quick, and they're both on Zoom. Sure. I'd finish. Just for clarification,
though, Ms. Tancredi, you did also indicate Mr. Shusterman as a witness. Are you intending to
ask the board to bifurcate again to allow Mr. Schusterman to testify at another date?
Yes, I would like Mr. Schusterman to be able to testify at the next available date,
and if Mr. Whalen would like to present. Let me ask the question relative to that.
What if she just received a written report from him? Would you both be okay with that or not?
I would accept a written report from him.
This continuation of hearings actually creates a very heavy prejudice on the property owner, whom I represent.
So what I would recommend is that you could get a report from him, submit it to everyone, and we'll leave it at that.
Is that all right?
I could do that.
And then what we would do, too, is just take written summaries from all three of you.
But very briefly, then, could the city just ask what the scope of Mr like what's Mr Schusterman going to testify about? He's my understanding is that he's a community person, not an expert witness, per se, but I'm not I'm not clear on what he's testifying about.
So he would be testifying about the history of the watershed overlay and the spirit of
the overlay. And also I had indicated to counsel in advance that we were preserving a challenge
to the actions in this case as a violation of the ERA. So he would talk about that.
Sure. This city's okay with him presenting a written report on his views of the history of it. I mean, the city's already provided testimony on that. We would have a bit of an issue. We'll probably reserve an objection for him testifying about violations of the environmental rights amendment. That's a legal argument that if you want to make it to the board, that's fine and the city can respond to it, but that's he's