Committee of the Whole, May 6, 2024

9.6 million. Was that from the previous Administration's five-year plan, under the Kenney Administration's five-year --

From the Kenney Administration, yes.

That's good to know. Okay. Thank you. The Chair recognizes Majority Leader Gilmore Richardson.

Thank you. Thank you so much, Council President.

Kathy, take the chair and address your questions from the chair please.

Sure. We'll take just a very brief recess so I can move all my documents. Okay. Good afternoon. Thank you all so much for being here today. Appreciate this opportunity for the callback with a few additional questions. First, my colleague, our Chair of Housing and Homeless Services, already asked about the $16 million additional request that we originally received on March 13th of 2024 in the original budget and brief, million for FY25. Thank you very, very much for the responses that we received this morning at 9:21 prior to the 10:00 a.m. hearing. I was just reviewing that information here while we were in the hearing. Relative to the $16 million request, you all sent us a document this morning stating the total is $15,890,534 with a total bed count of 563 and a total number of direct service staff of 87. The difference between the 16.1 million in total is the $187,986 reduction mentioned on Line 4 plus rounding. And so, as I'm reviewing these documents in chambers -- and I apologize, I wasn't able to review them further because of the time that we received them at 9:21. I have a question regarding one of the lines, and then I'll go back to my previous questions. Are these current contracts that are underfunded or are these expanded contracts?

Excuse me. Can you repeat that again? I'm sorry.

The contracts that you all sent us this morning at 9:21, are these current contracts that are underfunded or are they expanded contracts?

No, those are contracts that are currently funded and there's also a reduction in some of the contracts to meet what we have budget allocation for.

Okay. And to your point, just reviewing a document that we received from you all last year relative to one of my information requests from November 23rd of 2023, Appendix A states, outstanding payments from FY21 through '23 and FY24 overages. Many of these organizations mirror with the same amounts. And so, can you just explain to us the new $16 million that you're requesting for Fiscal Year '25? Are these dollars being requested to deal with contracts that are listed where the amounts match from your November 23rd of 2023 email relative to outstanding payments from FY21 through '23 and FY24 overages or is this indeed a new $16 million allocation that you're asking for FY25 as your budget and brief states?

Ma'am, thank you for your question. The document that you're referring to that has the outstanding costs or outstanding invoices for Fiscal '21 to '23 with a separate column for Fiscal '24, those items have been paid. We have submitted and worked very closely with the Finance office. We reviewed multiple documents, multiple invoices. We did a lot of reconciliation, and those items have all been submitted in two batches. The second batch was submitted two weeks ago, so some of those payments are still in process. And then we did a separate payment for one particular vendor that we had to do a lot more reconciliation with. So to answer the question, the 16.1 has nothing to do with what was owed. It all has to do with current contracts.

Okay. Excellent. And so, I'm glad we received that clarification for the record, that the 16 million is for FY25. My next question relates to the information you all sent us this morning, Contract No. 2220101, U.S. Facilities is the provider. Program name, Preventative Maintenance. Program type, emergency shelter. Program description, preventative maintenance at City-owned shelter, City-owned facilities, Oxford shelter, Migrant Center and PNH. It's in the amount of $1.4 million. Bed count not available. Number of direct service staff not available. In the notes, it states funding to cover maintenance costs at the Philadelphia Nursing Home. I asked this question because as a former member of Appropriations under the last term and now as Vice-Chair of Appropriations, that's the same dollar amount that we did extend to OHS in the last midyear transfer under the previous Administration. For our clarity, could you just confirm that that 1.4 million is not the same 1.4 million from last year?

That 1.4 million is what we came in for the midyear transfer to upkeep the maintenance at the Philadelphia Nursing Home. And so, that 1.4 million is again projected for FY25 moving forward to continue with the upkeep and maintenance of the Philadelphia Nursing Home.

Right. I just wanted to make sure we had that for clarity because we did allocate the 1.4 million for the nursing home in the last midyear appropriation under the last Administration and the amounts were the exact same. Thank you for that clarification. The Office of Inspector General preliminary findings state that the Office of Homeless Services saw a General Fund Appropriations cut of roughly $17 million from Fiscal Year '20 to Fiscal Year '21. According to your budget details which are here, OHS received $60,133,037 in Fiscal Year '20 and $44,781,994 in Fiscal Year '21. Can you please confirm if those numbers are correct for your General Fund allocations?

I believe so, those numbers are correct.

So those numbers are correct. Based on my calculation, the difference between those amounts equal to $15,331,043; is that correct?

Yes. Okay. According to your budget details, OHS received its highest ever contribution in Grants Revenue in Fiscal Year '21. In Fiscal Year '20, OHS received $34,831,951 in Grants Revenue. And in Fiscal Year '21, that increased to 77,529,569 and this brought the department's total revenue up from $94,944,988 in Fiscal Year '20 to $122,311,563 in FY21; is that correct?

So the 34 million or 35 million that you're referencing here the Office of Homeless Services received federal funds to accommodate at the height of the COVID pandemic. I believe that 40 million that's additional there that you're referencing is a continuum of care federal grants that are allocated for renewal of programs.

Okay. So the OIG's report also states that the majority of your contracts were or would soon be generally eligible for grant funding of some kind. So of the 77 million in Grants Revenue funding that you all received in Fiscal Year '21, $39,340,452 was allocated to emergency and temporary housing contracts, so that was nearly million in 25 Grants Revenue more than you received in FY20, increasing the unit's overall Class 200 contribution to $67,627,555; is that correct?

Again, the 35 million that you're referencing here substituted a cut of the 8 million at that time where new 9 monies was about 16 million to 10 accommodate programs during the 11 height of the COVID pandemic. I 12 want to be clear that those grants 13 are competitive grants so it's not 14 guaranteed that you will get those 15 same levels of funding each year. 16

Right, and I heard the clock and I will honor the bell. I only ask because the amounts that you all gave us this morning in addition to the difference between the amounts from the different fiscal years are almost exactly the same. With that, the Chair now recognizes Councilmember Brooks.

Thank you so much, Majority Leader. My question is, it has been reported that the sweeps of Kensington will begin this week. Can you guarantee that there will be enough low barrier treatment beds for those who want to go into treatment? And I hear a lot of numbers, whether it's 75 or 90 at the Girard Avenue facility, and that doesn't add up to be the right amount of number of beds needed. And what are the other proposed sites that they will go to? If there are only 90 at Girard, where are the other sites going to be if we anticipate more than 90 people being available? And also, can you explain the treatment that the five people that are currently at the Girard site are receiving? MANAGING DIRECTOR THIEL: Councilmember, appreciate the questions. I think just for clarity's sake, and this is certainly something that could be revisited when our colleagues from the police department are here. What has been posted to happen is an encampment resolution, not a "sweep," per se. So there is not an idea that somehow folks who are currently unhoused are going to be "swept up" in any way. That said, you are absolutely correct that as you've heard from Director Holloman and as I think we all understand, we don't have enough beds currently with enough capability to address what we believe is the unhoused population of the City, in Kensington or anywhere else. And also, it is important that we address their other needs holistically. As far as the -- so I mean, you're exactly right. We are looking for expanding beds with many existing providers, if we haven't done it already. We are currently in negotiations and trying to get that done because we see the need. We certainly feel Council's urgency and the urgency from our communities, and we want to make sure that folks are taken care of. With respect to the specific treatment, at the point we start treating people they become patients, and I can't share specific treatment modalities for patients at the risk of violating federal privacy laws. I think what is important, and you are absolutely correct, is that we are providing the range of treatment options that are necessary for different folks who are coming in with different needs. There are different types of medication-assisted treatment. As you can imagine, some work better for some folks than others. People have different levels of wound care that they need, other types of services. So what you're talking about is exactly what we're trying to do is make sure that we are expanding services at existing facilities to provide the full range of care that might be needed for folks who are coming in voluntarily to avail themselves of these services and we hope get on a path to long-term care treatment, housing, wellness and eventually jobs.

So my question is if the five people that are currently in treatment came voluntarily, how did they know it was available to them when we didn't even know it was open? MANAGING DIRECTOR THIEL: Councilmember, our outreach workers from various agencies always have lists of facilities and the number of beds in those facilities. So as we got to the point where we had additional beds available at existing facilities with enhanced services, we let the outreach workers know and they can tell folks that those are available.

And the question comes because that morning before we actually found out about the opening of that facility, we got a call that a women's shelter was closed because it was a seasonal bed shelter in the same location. Is this the same exact facility that the 60-bed women's treatment center that was closed because the seasonal treatment was closed? Are we talking about the same exact place? MANAGING DIRECTOR THIEL: Councilmember, there is no women's treatment facility that was closed --

Not treatment. It was a shelter, Code blue, whatever. MANAGING DIRECTOR THIEL: Yeah, there's no women's shelter. Right, what it was, those are winter shelter beds that we have available obviously through the winter. Coincidentally, those beds closed on April 30th. The new beds are not those same beds. They are different. So we are --

But right to that point, just because it's no longer cold and those treatment beds -- it's no longer winter, is the assumption that the folks who were originally staying at that location, where are they going? What is the solution for folks that were temporarily sheltered throughout the winter now that the weather is changing? MANAGING DIRECTOR THIEL: Councilmember, we didn't put anybody on the street when those winter beds were closed. There was nobody --

So it wasn't at capacity? It was no one there when it happened? MANAGING DIRECTOR THIEL: No ma'am. I guess --

Okay. MANAGING DIRECTOR THIEL: -- because of the weather. That said, again we know that even when we have beds available, there are folks who are reluctant to come in. And part of what we're trying to do with the beds that we're bringing online now is to provide a higher level of care, a higher level of services and a measure of dignity that perhaps folks have not had in the past. And that's nothing against our current providers or facilities. I think everybody is doing the best they can. As we've talked about before, we are trying to fill in the middle- and the long-term space that doesn't exist. And also, even when we're doing things in the short-term, to provide more holistic and comprehensive care as we've discussed with this body several times.

So the current facility that we're talking about is open to anyone that an outreach person may find that's currently homeless in Philadelphia to go to? MANAGING DIRECTOR THIEL: Councilmember, when folks are approached by the outreach workers, they have options. So it's not -- we provide them the options. Again, these folks are coming in voluntarily so they're provided with the options at that particular point in time.

So from anywhere in the City, that's my question. I under -- MANAGING DIRECTOR THIEL: Yes, Councilmember, absolu -- that's right. It's another great point that I appreciate. The system that we are building, the ecosystem of wellness that we are building, again that does not exist anywhere in the nation as far as we know at this scale, and with this level of connectivity is citywide and intended to serve the entire City, not any particular neighborhood individually. And as a result, we are constantly balancing demand and supply across the City and beyond, as you heard the Council President talk about. We do have agreements with providers who happen to be located outside the City who do provide different levels of care for patients who need that.

Okay. Majority Leader, I have a question that came from the District Councilmember. Can I ask that question?

Please proceed. And then after that, we'll recognize Councilmember Gauthier.

Thank you. Hold on one second. I lost it, sorry. The question is about the zoning for this particular site. Would it require any type of variances and what will those variances need to be for this to happen? Because I know it was a nursing home, then it was used for a shelter. I don't know what the variance for this particular wellness use is. So I think his question is what would the variance require is needed for this particular site? MANAGING DIRECTOR THIEL: Councilmembers, appreciate the question. As we understand the current zoning and codicils attached to that zoning, this is a compatible use with what has been happening at this facility for literally a decade sheltering unhoused individuals. We are simply expanding the number of beds, elevating the quality of those beds and providing additional care and services to meet the needs of the population.

But the additional care and services that you're talking about, will they require any additional variances or do they fall under the variance for the nursing home piece that was there prior to? MANAGING DIRECTOR THIEL: Councilmember, the services we are providing now and the way those services are being provided we believe does not require any additional licensing or regulation. However, there is the possibility depending on how this entire wellness ecosystem comes together that we could in the future go to the Commonwealth and request licensing for a certain number of beds to provide more intensive treatment services onsite at any one of these particular facilities. That is part of the broader conversation as we bring this all together, so that decision has not been made for the Philly Home at Girard at this point.

Okay. And some of the questions that we have been reaching out to some of the service providers, we were told they were unable to speak with us; is that true? MANAGING DIRECTOR THIEL: Councilmember, I think -- I certainly think it is a best practice for folks who are contractors or vendors to refer questions to the City when they are City contractors.

We are the City. Aren't we collectively the City? So the Councilmembers that are asking specific questions to the providers about services are being told that they are unable to speak with us as Councilmembers trying to get information? MANAGING DIRECTOR THIEL: Councilmember, we have certainly not told any of those vendors or service providers that they're not allowed to talk to anybody. So again, I would say --

Thank you for putting that on the record. MANAGING DIRECTOR THIEL: I would say having been in that position in the past as a contractor, it is typical to refer those questions to one's client.

Okay. Thank you so much.

Thank you. Thank you so much, Councilmember Brooks. The Chair now recognizes Councilmember Gauthier.

Thank you, Madam Chair. My next question is sensitive, and I want you to know that I'm not asking it because of any resistance or reluctance to deal with homelessness in the 3rd District. I think that every Councilmember has the responsibility to lean in on this issue. But it is a fact that recently my office has received reports that in anticipation of the clear-out of the Kensington encampments, we have a few dozen people at 30th Street Station who have explicitly stated that they came from Kensington. And so, my question is what plan does OHS and the Managing Director's Office have to deal with displacement? The displacement that we're seeing that ended up at 30th Street is in anticipation of the sweep. So it only stands to reason that once we get to May 8th, we're going to see more of that in West Philadelphia and in other places. So, one, can you confirm that that's when the sweep is happening, that that's what we're going to do as a City, do the sweep on the 8th? And then secondly, can you talk about your plans because homelessness is never something that's going to just be contained in Kensington, right? We have to have a citywide plan to deal with the issue that we're seeing. MANAGING DIRECTOR THIEL: Councilmember, working backwards certainly appreciate the question and agree completely that we have to build a system that serves the entire City, which is why we are building a wellness ecosystem for long-term care treatment and housing to serve the entire City. And all of the currently unhoused individuals who need help, providing the care that they need whether they are experiencing substance use disorder or not, whether they are part of a family unit or not, whether they are part of a couple or not, to be able to have the available facilities and services to address them wherever they are today and wherever they might move or end up. I want to say again or repeat that the encampment resolution that has been posted is not as I understand it a "sweep" in the way I think folks are characterizing it. It is an encampment resolution. These have been done in the past. They will be done in the future. I would offer any other questions about the specific tactics of the encampment resolution might be best answered by the Philadelphia Police Department. From our perspective, what we are doing clearly, aggressively and as fast as possible is making sure that we have the available beds with the available services by expanding existing facilities to be ready for folks who may decide for whatever reason to come in and get help. Since the posting in Kensington, which happened to be in Kensington -- certainly I think you can probably anticipate we get emails all the time about other "encampments" around the City. I think you certainly can anticipate that those are also going to start being addressed in a similar fashion in the future using the framework that has been established for encampment resolutions. And since the posting in Kensington, we've already had 751 engagements in that area of folks who are looking for options to come in for whatever reason. And so far placements have occurred from 9 that neighborhood, from that area 10 or that part of the neighborhood, 11 from that area just since that 12 posting. 13 So I think what we're 14 seeing is again as everybody has 15 talked about, and all of your 16 constituents I know email you 17 because we are frequently on those 18 same emails, we are trying to 19 create a system that will be able 20 to provide capacity for long-term 21 care treatment and wellness all 22 across the City for all the folks 23 who need it however they get there. 24

I think my question -- and I'm happy to let the Deputy Managing Director provide more details -- what makes us ready to do this on the 8th? And I want to know how that readiness not only extends to the encampment resolution but extends to a logical migration. It makes a lot of sense that folks would go to 30th Street, right. I mean, it's pretty easy to get to and a place where a lot of people are that could potentially help folks. So what makes us ready to deal with that displacement and what plans do we already have in place to deal with that starting two days from now? MANAGING DIRECTOR THIEL: Councilmember, again our plan is to add as many beds as possible as quickly as possible with the range of services available. This is why when I answered the Council President's question earlier, the 48 beds last week at Philly Home at Girard is now 90 beds, and that is to be able to accommodate folks who are coming in from any area of the City, not just any particular neighborhood. We are similarly expanding beds and services at other existing facilities around the City. We have a number of these facilities that are already being used for this purpose run by credible, experienced, compassionate providers. And at the same time, we are continuing to work very aggressively on a plan that we will present to Council before the end of this month on a broader implementation strategy for expanded wellness services and facilities in the City. So that's what the $100 million initial capital investment is intended to help us do, is build that longer term capacity while right now to address this interim condition and the urgency that is on the street. We are expanding beds everywhere we can literally around the clock in concert with our providers, our dedicated outreach workers, multiple agencies, et cetera, et cetera.

Well, I look forward to working with you. And again, please don't interpret this as any reluctance to serve unhoused people in the 3rd District or wherever. I want to serve people better, right. And I look forward to working with MDO and OHS towards that goal. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you. Thank you so much, colleague. I wanted to take a moment to recognize the presence of a former Councilwoman and former Chair of City Council's Committee on Housing and Homeless Services, Jannie Blackwell who has joined us today. (Applause.)

Thank you for your commitment to our homeless community and unhoused population for years and years on end. We certainly appreciate your presence today. The Chair now recognizes Councilmember Ahmad.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Good afternoon, everyone. Complicated matters and I commend all of you for taking it on. If not us, then who, right. And I want to thank the Mayor for being proactive on this. Obviously the devil is in the details in how it's going to roll out. I had a few questions about how the Housing First policy connects to those with substance disorder and how we sort of translate that into a detox center, to a long-term care, to a warm handoff after that. What is that continuum and how do we take people who are being housed but then need these services, if you could explain that? MANAGING DIRECTOR THIEL: Councilmember, I appreciate the question. And, yes, certainly it is a complicated system, perhaps even complex that we're trying to build right now. The short answer to your question as with many complex systems is it depends. So it really depends on the particular needs and the particular place that that individual is in. And I mean place in terms of their physical location as well as how they are thinking about their future. So our goal, what we've heard over and over as we've met with health care providers, health care systems is there isn't necessarily today a joined-up way for folks to move through that system. We have a lot of very dedicated folks out there who are quite literally saving lives around the clock and we expect that work to continue. And when folks do come in for treatment, and what we've heard over and over, is even after a couple initial rounds of treatment, they may or may not have the supports they need to move to the next, sort of level up and move to the next phase. So that's what we're trying to build, is trying to connect the existing components of this system, build new ones at scale that don't exist today or don't exist at the capacity that we need -- because they do, we do have places that can provide either individually or through partnerships that can provide some of these services or even all of these services in one place. What we are trying to do is in addition to Housing First, we're trying to -- once we get folks in, we want to be able to connect them to all the services they might need for as long as they might need it, help them go through the system and not lose people in the handoffs because that seems to be what's happening today.

The feedback I'm getting from folks has been that it's not just the detox. It's the next step that is unavailable or disconnected. And so, the cycle starts all over again. And how intentional are we being in this plan that you're rolling out? Because you guys are connecting with provider -- you don't do direct services outside of your homeless outreach, if I'm correct, and then the actual service is some other provider. So you're sort of the middle person connecting. So we just want to make sure that plan is tight. And most importantly, how are we connecting and communicating with those who will need the services instead of having what we heard people scattering all over the place because they're hearing something is coming? How much intentionality has been to inform the clients who will need that work? How much -- outside of just some service worker going around, is there any other plan that we are using to make sure people know there's a coordinated plan coming out, your needs are going to be met, you're going to have detox but then after detox, there's going to be more? And how that detox is done also. A lot of our providers are just doing part of it and then letting people go. So I just want to assure our constituents who happen to be unhoused and have substance disorder or just unhoused without the disorder, anybody who is in that position, how clear is our communication to them of what you're doing because the communication to us has not been very clear? I gather you're flying the plane and building it at the same time. I get that. But if we can share as much with the constituents who are going to be impacted by that, that will make everything so much calmer, better and humane. And that's what I want to see, where that plan is and how intentional we are about doing that. MANAGING DIRECTOR THIEL: Councilmember, appreciate that. Please rest assure that we are putting care at the center of this entire ecosystem that we are building, care for the individuals who are unhoused and/or experiencing substance use disorder or whatever other challenges they have, and I think equally important care for our communities --

Yes. MANAGING DIRECTOR THIEL: -- our communities that are around these facilities, our communities that are experiencing the spillover effects of many of these challenges. As far as outreach goes, I think we've already seen some real success from the -- again, having a little experience in this in building capacity on the street and areas of need, we really have seen the value of building trust from a health care perspective. Building trust with folks, that can be long term. It doesn't necessarily happen overnight. Sometimes it's multiple conversations. It's talking with folks, maybe saving their life one day with the Naloxone and the next time seeing them and talking about the options that are available. Already as we've brought on additional options, options specifically for couples housing, we know that we've gotten a few couples into some of our new beds who were not coming in because they could not stay together, so we are already trying to provide more variety in terms of the arrangements, more of the services and also in a way that is compassionate to the clients, the patients and the communities. Certainly to the extent that we think we can benefit from communication beyond those kind of peer engagements, those face-to- face engagements by our dedicated outreach workers, we will certainly do that.

Thank you. And I look forward to the detailed plan that you're going to provide to us and hope it's a continuum and not disconnected because that's what's been the experience in the past. Thank you so much. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you. Thank you so much, Councilmember Ahmad, for your questions. I also wanted to recognize the group we have here today ACT UP. Thank you all so much for joining us for this hearing. Thank you very much for being here. Chair now recognizes Councilmember Thomas.

Good afternoon. Just some questions for clarity. Let me go back to Councilmember Brooks' question. Councilmember Brooks asked about communication with contractors. And based on the response, I've heard you are very comfortable with contractors communicating with Councilmembers. Who's not permitted to communicate with us? Who involved in this whole ordeal have you asked to not communicate with City Council but rather bring that information directly through your office, so we know who's allowed to communicate with us and who's not permitted to communicate directly with us? MANAGING DIRECTOR THIEL: Councilmember, I have not asked anybody not to communicate with City Council or anybody else.

Okay. So all staff, any questions we have as it relates to going through things that have happened in the past, you all have no problem with us reaching out to contractors, departments, staff members to figure out what's going on because I'm just getting a different impression here? That's why I'm asking. MANAGING DIRECTOR THIEL: Councilmember, I'm not sure I would say we have no problem with that. I think the challenge is sometimes people in organizations see their piece of the organization and may not see the entire scope and scale of the organization and may or may not be completely aware of other things that are happening, particularly in a time that is very dynamic when we are trying to create a system that doesn't exist anywhere else. So I think certainly you may feel free to talk with whomever you desire. I certainly wouldn't necessarily believe -- and here I'm certainly preaching to the choir in talking with City Councilmembers -- everything you hear.

Thank you. Just wanted to make sure that we had clarity on our end, because again this is a very confusing situation that we're involved in when we're trying to navigate it in a way that's in the best interest of Philadelphians. May 8th, this May 8th date that I'm hearing in today's hearing, when was this date communicated to City Council that this would be the time where we would begin to see some type of action in Kensington? When was that communicated to us and how did we get that message? MANAGING DIRECTOR THIEL: Councilmember, the date, there was a posting that is in accordance with the procedure for encampment resolutions, so that's a public posting.

Okay. So it wasn't like a direct communication to City Council just letting us know that this was taking place and asking maybe for our insight, input, suggestions and things like that? That didn't happen? MANAGING DIRECTOR THIEL: Councilmember, I can't speak to whether that happened or not. It certainly didn't come from me.

Awesome. Thank you. So as it relates to the resolution, I spend a lot of time in Kensington and my colleagues know that I'm down there a lot. I'm hearing that you're going to be focusing on the corridor, the business corridors as well as some residential spaces. What about the places that people in Kensington that are not business corridors and are not residential facilities, what is the plan for those encampment sites? MANAGING DIRECTOR THIEL: Councilmember, I think probably any questions about specific plans going forward for encampment resolutions are maybe best asked of the police department or Office of Public Safety. I would say that --

So the police department is determining where we go? MANAGING DIRECTOR THIEL: Well, I think you're asking about tactics which --

No, no, no. No, I'm not. So I want to be clear. I heard your question earlier when you talked about, I think Councilmember Nicolas O'Rourke asked about a tactic and care, and I heard you say, reference the police for that. I'm talking about strategy, right. So I understand that you're focused on a few block radius. I'm asking about places that don't come within -- I'm not talking about how you remove people. I'm talking about where you're targeting. So I'm hearing that you're targeting a lot of residential and business corridors. I'm asking about the encampments in Kensington that are not near any residents and that are not near any business corridor. What's the plan for those areas? MANAGING DIRECTOR THIEL: Councilmember, I think this is the first encampment resolution of this Administration. I would expect there will be more.

So what's the plan for the areas that's not business and residential filled? So do we not have a plan for that yet? Are we not thinking about those areas? Are we targeting this area first and then going to those areas? MANAGING DIRECTOR THIEL: Councilmember, we are thinking about every area in the City, and certainly probably not a day goes by that we don't get information about -- well, information or complaints about a particular encampment in a particular location. And I think as we are building out, and this goes to Councilmembers' earlier point, as we are building out this broader system, we need to make sure these things are going together so we don't overload our capacity. We want to make sure that we have the capacity as we continue to resolve encampments and address other areas where unhoused individuals congregate, that we have the available, compassionate, comprehensive care and services that they need available. So when they come in, we will keep them in the system, move them through the system and get them out the other side hopefully in a better place with access to economic opportunity.

So I'm thinking about what Councilmember Gauthier asked, and she talked about people relocating. She said that people were going to 30th Street because they're aware of some of the things that's going to happen in May. I spent a lot of time in Kensington. I'm thinking about the people who are going to go to the railroad tracks, the people who are going to go underneath I-95. I don't think people are going to just sit there and let you sweep them away. You said that you had 750 engagements from people in Kensington that are looking for support. The 750 number is curious to me because we heard that there are 750 people living on the streets in Kensington. So based on the number of people who have engaged as well as the information that you gave us as it relates to the people in Kensington, one will get the impression that every person who lives on the streets in Kensington has reached out for some type of engagement. So just listening to what you talked about today, where did the 750 number come from as it relates to people who live on the streets in Kensington? And based on the 750 engagement that you have had, can you just kind of go in depth a little bit? It's just a crazy coincidence that 750 people are estimated to live in Kensington while simultaneously 750 people have engaged from Kensington looking for support. So kind of help us with a little clarity with that. MANAGING DIRECTOR THIEL: Councilmember, appreciate that. First, the 751 engagements are not unique individuals. So you can certainly engage over a period of days. You may engage with the same individual multiple times, so that is why that number does not necessarily map to the number of individuals. I think the key point that you made that I certainly will reinforce is estimated. All of our estimates of the unhoused population in Philadelphia are exactly that, estimates. So this is also why we are building a system as fast as we can with all of these services to be able to accommodate what will ultimately be the population that we need to serve. And I also want to be really clear about this. We are not, we are not looking to "sweep" people away or anywhere. We're not sweeping them away. What we are trying to do is get folks the access that they need to housing, long-term care, treatment and economic opportunity. That is what we are trying to do in a comprehensive, holistic, joined-up way because we all know that is not possible today.

Well, thank you for that, and I think that City Council shares your vision as it relates to the idea of getting people the support systems they need. I just think that we don't have a whole lot of clarity. Clearly on your end, you know a lot more about this plan than what we know about the plan. And so, for us we're looking to do something as a City that we've never seen before. And I think that on our end we're just a little reluctant because there are holes that we know that needs to be filled and we communicate those holes and it's not necessarily a team effort at this point right now, right. I don't think City Council really feels included as it relates to the brainstorming process to figure out what's the best way to go about this. And I'll give you my example, and then I'll close out, Madam Leader. I spend a lot of time in Kensington. I was in Kensington Sunday, right. I'm not doing City Council business. I'm just down there doing my thing because that's where my professional experiences have taken me. People know you guys are coming. And so, because they know you're coming, what they're doing is they're beginning to migrate off of Kensington Avenue up into the railroad tracks and below 95. And the reason that I'm asking specifically about people who migrate away from residential and business spaces is because I'm concerned with what communication looks like. The people who've decided to encamp in a space that's not residential as well as not near a business corridor, how do we now tell this person who might not even be doing drugs, if I'm not doing drugs, I'm not participating in illegal activity, I'm not near a business corridor and I'm not near a residential space, how can we then tell that person they can't be there? What difference is the person who decides to park a tent underneath the railroad tracks where nobody's around them compared to the person who decides to set up a tent in Fairmount Park and essentially have a date? I don't know the difference. But from our end, I'm not clear on what the plan is to be able to communicate what the difference is so we can understand how we use that care that Councilmember O'Rourke talked about when we are implementing a strategy to try to support Philadelphians. So I don't know if you have a response to that. But based on what I'm hearing, I think that that's a big hole that needs to be filled, because again they know you're coming, they're 100 percent sure, we're 100 percent sure. You said it was public knowledge. And so, if folks know that this is happening, I don't think a lot of them are just going to stay on Kensington Avenue to be a part of this experiment, to be a part of this pilot. I think most of them are going to migrate to an area where they know that it would be very difficult to say you can't be here. MANAGING DIRECTOR THIEL: Councilmember, I think the good news is we have 24 folks since the date of that initial posting for an encampment resolution who've come in and are currently being sheltered and taken care of in our system as it exists today. So how did they get the word? They got the word from our incredibly dedicated outreach teams, from almost every agency in City government and also from our great partners and providers. So some folks are getting the word. Certainly I have been extremely fortunate in many ways over the course of my life, and one of those ways is I've never been unhoused, I've never had that experience. So recognizing that and with our team recognizing that, another thing we are doing as you heard our Deputy Managing Director say, we held a charrette the other day, a design charrette with folks who have that lived experience to help understand their journeys and how as we are building this system we can make sure that we are providing the access that they need, the supports they need. That's not a one-and-done.

We have two more of those charrettes planned so we can actually ensure that the system we are building has our communities at its center as well as the folks that we're taking care of. So we do want to understand how best to communicate to those folks. And so far, at least times in the past 15 month it's worked. 16

So 17 thank you for that information. I 18 think I speak for a number of 19 Councilmembers that we appreciate 20 the dedication to trying to address 21 this issue. I think that what 22 we're really just asking for is an 23 opportunity to be a part of the 24 brainstorming process so we can make sure that it's done in a way that we're all comfortable voting for, what you're asking us for from the fiscal side to be able to fund this. And I think if we can see some of our colleagues -- it doesn't have to necessarily be me -- but if some of our colleagues were able to be a part of the brainstorming and the intricate dialogue as it relates to what the plan is, I think it'll put us in a position where it'll make people a lot more comfortable to be able to vote for and allocate the dollars that you're asking for to be able to rectify what we all know needs to be fixed. Thank you, Madam Leader. I appreciate it. And thank you to my colleagues for your questions. Because the reality is, colleagues, I didn't have any questions when I woke up this morning, but your questions made me inquire as it relates to this issue and the direction that we're going in. So I appreciate the Councilmembers who've been really focused and diligent as it relates to the overdose crisis that we're dealing with and trying to find the best way to rectify this ill. Thank you, Madam Leader.

Thank you. Thank you so much, Councilmember Thomas. The Chair now recognizes myself as I'm next in the queue. I wanted to go back very briefly and just state and clarify that the dollars we were talking about before that you mentioned were continuum of care, they were Emergency Services Grants. We looked up the information. It is in Section 47 of the operating budget. It matches the amount, so that's Emergency Services Grant. I just wanted to state that for the record, that we understand that from a fiscal standpoint as we are going through the budget. You talked about this doomsday budget and the need for the $16 million for FY25. You also talked about how you all are expanding even right now the services that are being provided at the site that we know is the Philadelphia Nursing Home from 48 beds to 90 beds. And when we were previously here on April 15th, Mr. Holloman, you stated that the department pays between $68 and $73 per emergency shelter bed per day. This means we are paying anywhere between $24,820 and $26,645 per shelter bed per year. And so, last year in the documentation that your office and your department provided to City Council during the budget process, and for the record that was prior to your service with OHS, Managing Director Thiel and Deputy Managing Director Yates, you stated that the average cost per shelter bed was $17,000. And so, now we're saying the average cost is $25,732. And so, as you all are talking about this expansion particularly at the nursing home and just the need in general, could you just explain the nearly $7,000 on average increase in a shelter bed from Fiscal Year '23 to Fiscal Year '24?

Inflation has a lot to do with those costs. When we look at fringe benefits, keeping staff, those are all costs that are contributing to that. As we're seeing food costs go up too, but inflation is a big driver of that.

And I figured that you would say that. So my question then is are folks working in the shelters getting paid more?

Thanks to City Council's advocacy we were able to make sure that everybody I believe it's 15.71 for direct level of staff, but that also has put a crunch on the line supervisors. And so, everyone is making the 15.71 in shelter.

Okay. So are they being paid more than what they were being paid the last fiscal year?

Due to the cost increase for the living wage, yes.

And relative to food costs, could you just clarify how food contracts are managed, as OHS also has food vendors?

Yeah. We provide also some level of food in the shelter, but we also know that there's additional costs that are in the contract that help support food allocation. Just as snacks -- some providers again have line items that they'll go out and purchase their own food. We have food at our warehouse, but again that is the bare minimum for some of the facilities. But food cost is definitely included in some of the contracts there.

Okay. Excellent. And how does OHS evaluate the cost of shelter and ensure providers are billing OHS for actual cost? And for the record, I did review the information that you all sent at 9:21 this morning prior to the 10:00 a.m. hearing while I was here. And so, I did see where you all are increasing the amount of shelter visits more so than you have in the past, particularly for this year since all of this has been in question. But if you could just talk about how you all are evaluating the cost of shelter and ensure providers are billing OHS for actual cost?

Absolutely. Thanks for that question. So for over the last several years, many of our shelters have not really received any significant increases. Some of the costs may vary, especially with the new shelters, the small SROs that are accommodating specialized services for seniors which may cost a little bit more. We also have seen increases in shelter budget as a result of trying to bring new providers in where the cost of let's just say rent for new properties or new buildings that the shelters may be going out, that's also a cost factor in why the costs fluctuate. But what we're doing is looking across our system and seeing shelter services that are equivalent to each other and seeing where there may be indifferences in what we're paying versus previous of what we're paying.

Right. And again, I only ask that because I think you all were stating originally prior to all this new information that we have received about the Philadelphia Nursing Home site that you would need $16 million to maintain service in Fiscal Year '25. And so, I guess what you're saying is that the 100 million that you're requesting that has yet been allocated is going to be for the wellness centers and the triage centers around the City, but the 16 million will help maintain current level of service at OHS, but also you all are involved with the nursing home? I'm just trying to get clarity on that.

Yeah. So the million is strictly for the 6 Office of Homeless Services budget. 7 The 100 million that you're 8 referencing for the wellness triage 9 site, which we support those 10 operations because they're dealing 11 with people who are unsheltered. 12 As Managing Director -- 13

So pardon me, I 15 apologize for the interruption. So 16 are you all amending existing contracts in order to meet that need?

The wellness treatment site is totally different from what we're doing -- MANAGING DIRECTOR THIEL: Council Majority Leader, yes, that is exactly what we are doing. We are expanding existing contracts, expanding existing services to be able to meet this interim need while we develop the plan that we are going to brief Council on for the $100 million initial capital investment for larger wellness facilities and then talk about the operating dollars to operate those facilities.

But you understand the question, right? You all are currently requesting $16 million for FY25. The $100 million is something that would have to be determined as we work through this budget process as a Council and work with the Administration on this request, on what we call a proposal. And so, if you're amending existing contracts, my question to you is, is the $16 million enough to maintain the current level of service as you are amending the contracts, because we have not approved the $100 million? MANAGING DIRECTOR THIEL: Councilmember, the $100 million is capital. So none of that is capital, and that would be that money when Council approves will not be available until after July 1st in FY25. So --

I understand that. MANAGING DIRECTOR THIEL: The dollars now, the $16 million in OHS's budget, and I think this is the crux of your question, is strictly for OHS to maintain current services. We are using multiple other agencies and contracts and dollars that are available for this type of services to expand the capacity in the number of beds that we have today even as we plan strategically for the longer term implementation.

And that is my question. If you are amending existing contracts that we currently have for this current fiscal year as this work is happening during Fiscal Year '24, where is that money coming from? I ask that question. I think it's a very valid question based on where we were previously. And again, this was not during your time as the Managing Director. This was under the previous Administration to be very clear. But Council was asked in our last midyear transfer in the fall of 2023 via the Appropriations Committee for an additional almost $16 million, and we did grant the dollars, the 1.4 million for the nursing home and the other 9.6 million, and we held back the other 5.1 million. I think it was $5,092,634. We held that amount back because you all at that time could not provide the invoices to help us understand why you needed those dollars. And so, I asked the question because the whole crux of why we are based on the OIG's uncompleted report that was released the week after the last hearing on April 15th, I ask that question because I don't want us to be in the same space that we're spending dollars that were not originally allocated for. So the question is, if the money is not coming from OHS, where is the money coming from for the work you all are currently doing for Fiscal Year '24, and how much? Because the 16 million is just for maintaining levels of service that we all know again are in question based on the quality, but that's a different conversation right now, okay. Where is this money coming from? What contracts are you amending and how much?

Madam, thank you for the question. I think I can help with that. One of the things that we have done -- I'm a resident of the City and care about Philadelphia, and one of the complaints that I've had as a resident is that we work in silos. For this particular thing, what we're doing differently is we're not working in silos. So it's not only OHS's budget, it's DBH's budget, it's MDO's budget and we're all pulling together as a team to provide these services for Fiscal '24 because we know that they're desperately needed.

How much and which contracts are being amended?

I will get that for you, ma'am, and we may have to respond in writing because I don't want to misspeak. But we are looking at every, every opportunity to provide these services. Another thing that we have yet to talk about is we're also meeting with payers because they play a role in this too. Some of these services we want to be able to bill, and part of that is having conversations with payers so that the City is not supporting this system long-term so that insurance payers, CBH, IBX and others are then taking on the payment. So we can respond in how much and we can respond which contracts, but I can't respond to that here without seeing everything in front of me in writing.

I understand and I appreciate that. And I just ask that question for clarity based on where we are. Okay. And I think it's a valid question as we are undertaking this budget process that we have that information. And with all due respect, please don't send that information the morning of the hearing. That doesn't give us adequate time to fully review the information. When you all send me information, I have to go through all -- my team and I. I'm not going to say I. It's no I in team. But my team and I have to go through all these documents that you all have given us over the last year. Again, not under your tenure, under the previous Administration before you were in these positions. We have to go through these documents to match up and make sure the contract amounts match up and make sure all the information is aligning based on the budget details that you all have presented in previous fiscal years and the responses that you all have given us, and I'm not going to say you all, but working under the previous Administration from the year before. And so, if this is something that you all want us to fully understand as we are undertaking this budget process, I respectfully request that we receive this information in more advanced time so that we could adequately review it. My next question is when SEPTA was here for their budget briefing, they stated that in November 2022 they paid $25,000 to purchase 500 emergency shelter beds. They stated that they've only used 130 of the 500 beds that they purchased. Can you please detail what you all did with the payment? Did you add any additional beds with these funds? And I'm going to ask Mr. Holloman to answer this question because you weren't there. If so, how many or did you just take a certain number of beds offline and reserve them in case SEPTA's outreach teams needed to place someone?

Yeah, I think that's a great question. And I don't have the details with me today. But if I can provide in writing once I consult with SEPTA how many beds were fully utilized during that time, but I don't have that detail with me today.

I understand. To your point though when I did ask SEPTA at their briefing, they stated they were unable to answer the question and that we would have to follow up with OHS. And so, I want to state that for the record. SEPTA also stated that they've only paid the City one time in November of 2022, again, under the previous Administration. But they said they still have access to those reserved beds. So could you all just explain for us for the record if it was a payment in 2022 and it's now May of 2024, how does that work? How does that process work as far as an organization or quasi government agency reserving beds at a shelter that may or may not go used?

Yeah. To be completely honest with you, I'm not familiar with that arrangement that took place at that time. Even though I was in a leadership role, I wasn't part of that negotiation strategy with SEPTA so I'm not able to provide you the details of how that came about. What I can say is that we work with many agencies that provide outreach services and at times we do set aside beds for some of the most difficult situations around, but I don't have background knowledge on how that came about at this time.

Okay. And so, relative to not being able to respond to how that process came online, could you speak to how it works as far as when someone reserves beds, how does that work? And then if the beds go unused, then what happens?

Yeah. Again, in the cases where we work with many of the outreach teams like Center City District, SEPTA outreach, there may be opportunities where we may set aside five beds for the outreach teams, and that's only because if they're dealing with someone who they have relationships with, it is much easier for that outreach team to have a warm handoff that's coming to our facilities. Now, if those beds aren't used by a certain time, we fully utilize those beds throughout our entire system for someone else to be utilized. But we try to, especially during winter season, we know that there are difficult clients based on behavioral health challenges that they will only come in by direct handoff by outreach. And so, there may be times where we set aside a bed in those things, but it's not to my understanding a large proportion of that.

Sure. Well, for the DBH teams do they have the same direct access to beds or do they have to go through intake?

Yeah. At times, prior we had some set-asides but now we try to have everything go through intake. One of the reasons why we want to do that is we want to have a better system where we're doing better assessments of individuals who are coming in. And so, we encourage everyone to go through centralized intake so that we can have that data into our system.

Okay. And I'll circle back to that. I just wanted to get a few more things on the record and then I will proceed. Could you please provide the census count of the beds that are available today?

I would have to get that number for you. I don't have that off the top of my head right now.

Okay. Would you all be able to provide that number today, later today --

Yes, we can.

-- via Council President for dissemination to the rest of the Committee?

We can get that in writing to you today, yes.

Okay. That'll be great. Is this number based on OHS records of where folks are placed?

Absolutely. Today is Monday so we know that -- we don't know what to expect coming in on a Monday morning. So that's based on availability of what we have in the system and how many people are coming in seeking shelters.

Okay. And do providers ever take beds offline?

Yes. In the case of if there's something that may have happened to the room or something in that nature, bed bugs or any type of situation, maybe a water pipe bust or anything of that nature, yes, they're forced to be taken offline.

Okay. I'll submit the additional questions under that line for your written response. Do providers have the ability to reject clients based on ability, identity, immigration status, justice system involvement or mental or behavioral health history?

No, ma'am. We do not support any form of discrimination.

Okay. So OHS has never communicated to its employees to divert clients from certain placements based on ability, identity, immigration status, justice involvement or mental or behavioral health history?

Not to my knowledge. No, we don't discriminate against anyone.

Okay. I am going to submit emails for the record from your department that have been redacted for your review that states that your department has communicated to divert folks from certain placements based on that ability, identity, immigration status, justice involvement or mental or behavioral health history for your review. Okay. I say that because my office has received multiple calls and reports from clients who state they have been kicked out of their placement and banned from shelters. These folks have reported that they have been banned for many reasons. But as an example, I've received information that someone was banned for reporting drug sales and for requesting a new placement due to conditions at their current location, especially as it relates to as you stated bed bugs, roaches and rodents. And so, when OHS bans a client, they are often told they cannot return for 30 days. What happens next?

Yeah, I would like to look at those cases. I think there's more details when we get to look at those cases. Only time that I know that someone may not be allowed back in the facility is due to violence. And even in those cases we try to do an inappropriate discharge to another facility so that -- because we don't want anyone to go back to the street. But I think on those cases I would love to know first and foremost what are those reasons, who's that person, what type of follow-up that we did. So I can get you that information and welcome any investigation. If anyone is reporting any type of mishap, please I'll be the first -call me or come see me, but also report it to any appropriate level of response that's needed.

Right, agreed. And so, how many clients are currently banned from receiving City services via OHS?

I would have to get that to you in writing. And again, if you're talking about on a daily basis or 30 days or however, I would need to know I guess based on your writing what type of content we're looking at here.

Surely. And I'll submit the balance of those questions again for your review. How many reports came into your tip line within the last year?

Excuse --

How many reports came into your tip line within the past year?

Same thing, I would need to get back to you in writing regarding that.

Okay. And I will hold the balance of the questions that I have. But one last one that I do want to get on the record. This will be for Managing Director's Office and OHS regarding Women Against Abuse. If you all could give us an update regarding Women Against Abuse and the funding for their 24-hour domestic violence hotline. I think that funding has been cut. According to the detail, the estimated obligation for the program is over 800,000. But the FY25 allocation is only 200,000. If you all could just explain that? MANAGING DIRECTOR THIEL: (Inaudible).

Pardon me? MANAGING DIRECTOR THIEL: Councilmember, we're going to have to get back to you on that.

Okay. And so, we'll circle back again under the Managing Director's Office testimony. But I will say this and I won't add much: I do have concern relative to providers and organizations that do try to reach out for additional assistance, if they reach out to City Council, that they may be being penalized because they've reached out to us. And so, I do have concern about that. And I want to put that on the record so that you all hear that directly from me to you that there is concern that people are being punished simply for speaking up and/or speaking out all within government. And I think it's disheartening, particularly because folks are providing a service to the City and they are just seeking to get paid. Okay. And it should be no point where we have to step in to help folks get paid. I mean, we've allocated the dollars in OHS's particular situation to ensure they were able to meet the obligations that we received. I want to say for the record that at no time do I think we should underfund the Office of Homeless Services. But what I do believe is that we don't know what it takes to actually fully fund a fully functioning Office of Homeless Services that is providing quality service to people all across the City of Philadelphia because of all of the policy and systematic issues that have come to light over the last, I'll say, almost two years at this point. And so, I want to be very clear that I've never stated that we should not fund the department. We should fund for the invoices that we are able to see that make sense, yes. And that's what we did last year. But I do think that we need to fully understand what a fully functioning OHS Department would look like as far as quality, quality service to people. And that's what we are seeking, to provide quality service to those who are experiencing homelessness and who are unhoused in the City. And my last two things: One, David Holloman, I do want to thank you for your work and for your service. We did work together on a number of cases that did -- I did not forget about that, and I do want to say thank you for the work that you did and how you did step up in a time of transition. That was very difficult, right, to no 25 fault of your own I believe. Sometimes we can't control what's happening around us. And then finally, I would ask that before you all leave from the Office of Homeless Services, there are individuals who are here in this hearing today who are experiencing homelessness and who are unhoused. I would like to ask that your staff speak with them directly and see what services they need so that they can receive the help necessary to move forward in our City. Thank you very, very much.

Absolutely, and thank you.

Madam, thank you. We agree. Thank you.

Thank you. Okay. Councilmember Brooks was next in the queue. And so, I'll ask that she submit her questions for the record. We will be taking a recess, Managing Director's Office and the Philadelphia Police Department. We thank you for your patience. We thank you for being here, but we will take a recess at 1 o'clock and we will return at 2:00 p.m. Thank you very, very much. (Afternoon recess.)

So my understanding is we were finishing up with the Managing Director's Office. Okay. MDO, please come back up.

(Inaudible).

Oh, OHS?

(Inaudible).

MDO -- y'all were going in between two of them?

Just OHS.

Just OHS, okay. Any more questions and comments for OHS? Any more questions? Any other members have questions for OHS? (No response.)

Okay. All right. At this point in time, got you on double duty, Adam. Mr. Thiel, Managing Director's Office. (Witnesses approached Witness table.)

The Chair recognizes Councilmember Kendra Brooks.

Oh, that was quick. Thank you, Council President.

Madam Brooks, Minority Leader, can you just speak into the microphone please?

Yes. Let me bring it closer. Thank you. All right. So my first question was still about the nursing home, the old nursing home. So the cost for renovating the old nursing home was intended to be more than $6.6 million for new heating and generator, among other issues. So how much did the Administration spend for that particular center, do you know? MANAGING DIRECTOR THIEL: Councilmember, I'm not sure which renovation you're referring to.

Well, the renovation for -- what's the name for -- hold on. 2100 Girard. I don't know the name that you guys are calling it.

The building where you're just expanding the additional 90 beds --

Philly Home at Girard. MANAGING DIRECTOR THIEL: Understood. My question, Councilmember, is I don't know the renovation that you are refer -- the scope of the renovation to which you are referring.

So when the building -- originally when the building was transitioned to something else, they were saying that it needed $6.6 million for all of these -- a new heating and a generator, and I was wondering were those issues resolved at this facility? MANAGING DIRECTOR THIEL: Councilmember, we're not doing that full scope renovation. We are essentially doing right now one floor at a time, so we can certainly get you the number that we've spent as we are moving forward.

Okay. So a part of the Mayor's proposed budget for FY25 included $100 million in capital spending for triage wellness center funding. Is that the money that was used or planned to be used for this renovation or other renovations for any other locations that will be sprouting up around the City? MANAGING DIRECTOR THIEL: Councilmember, no, that money is not available. Assuming that City Council approves that $100 million in capital, it will not be available until after July 1st as part of the FY25 budget. So we are not spending the $100 million because it does not exist yet. So we are spending money that was in our midyear transfer request to be able to do again smaller renovations so we can get floors and beds in service now, not that full scope renovation that you're talking about.

So earlier I did ask about other existing facilities and where do we intend on them popping up. So the money that was allocated will also go to the renovation of those facilities as well? MANAGING DIRECTOR THIEL: Councilmember, those aren't necessarily renovations. We do have other City-owned facilities that we are renovating and most of the existing facilities are actually operated by other providers who they have their own not-for-profits and businesses, and we essentially pay them. We don't know how they address their capital, you know. We don't get into their business except to the extent that we tell them we have a requirement. They tell us what it would cost to meet that requirement and we use different not capital money, Class 200 to pay for that.

And it will serve as the same capacity as Philly Home at Girard? They will have the same operations and support services as you described at -- MANAGING DIRECTOR THIEL: Councilmember, not necessarily the same. A lot of these facilities offer a different scope of services. What we are trying to do is to raise the standard of care in all of these existing facilities, particularly the ones that are City-operated like Philly Home at Girard so we can provide more services. Again, we don't have to move people around. Once you have folks in, you want to try to keep them in the care continuum as long as possible without losing them, so that's really why we're trying to expand services in existing facilities first while we develop the plan for comprehensive wellness centers that will be funded by that $100 million capital investment in the Mayor's proposed budget.

Okay. So my next question is like a process. If folks are voluntarily deciding to go to the Girard facility or wherever else, are they also being transitioned somewhere else if they have addiction issues for their 28th stay or are these facilities being used as part of the 28 days facility for rehab? MANAGING DIRECTOR THIEL: Councilmember, it really literally depends on the individual participant or patient. So we are trying to put them into the place that they need. They are all different. They have different levels of care that they need. So, for instance, our low barrier shelter beds at Philly Home at Girard, that's not suitable necessarily for somebody who needs intensive wound care. We can provide preliminary wound care now. If folks need intensive wound care, then we get them to the appropriate medical facility. Similarly, if somebody requires this type of medication- assisted treatment versus that type or they need it for a longer time than we can provide, we get them to the appropriate care. What we are trying to do is to build one system, connect all these different nodes of the system and have a smaller number of facilities ultimately where we can provide holistic care. That is going to take time to build that. And we know given the urgency of the situation in our communities and frankly for the folks that are experiencing these issues, we don't have the time to essentially build out and develop this long-term plan, do multiple studies and then build a facility. It still is going to take -- we are doing that and at the same time we are doing everything we can within existing resources to build out and expand the bed capacity that we have now, providing higher quality care and a broader range of services to the people who need it.

And I think just to be clear, I'm not saying that I don't support these services. What I'm saying is in order for me to support something everything has been very vague and has not been transparent. So every time we come and ask questions, it's questions about process procedure or plan, who, what, how. So it's not to be contentious. It's like in order for us to be an advocate for services, we need to know what they are. And the reason I'm asking is because you said it wasn't happening, then it did happen, then it already happened, and it was in someone's District. They didn't have a say, no one knew. We get phone calls because it was on the news first, and then you have us in Council looking crazy because we said just now that it wasn't happening. So I'm just trying to get clarity as to if we're going to be partners in this as the City, whether it's Administration and Legislative side, we need to be partners. And I want to be able to understand the language around this. Because another thing that I'm very confused about, what's the difference between encampment resolution and a sweep? So these terminologies are being switched from Administration to Administration and we aren't having clarity so we can't even defend a position that we have not been a part of. MANAGING DIRECTOR THIEL: Councilmember, I'll defer the question about encampment resolution versus a sweep to our colleagues from the Police Department and the Office of Public Safety. With respect to what we are doing, we committed in our last budget hearing to sitting with Council and presenting the longer term strategic plan for this, for our wellness centers, our wellness ecosystem before the end of this budget process, so that commitment still stands. We're going to show you that. In the interim, we are --

Just right there, as part of that commitment you commit to having a briefing to explain something to Council that you already started and did, that makes us have to defend our position after the fact. So we can't even support what you're doing because we don't know. So the briefing should happen before the thing. MANAGING DIRECTOR THIEL: Councilmember, we are expanding things we are already doing, so I think it's more than a semantic difference. We are providing shelter beds. We are taking care of people literally around the clock 24/7, 365. We have heard from this Council, we've heard from community members, we've heard from advocates that we need more beds. So we are delivering more of the same types of beds that we already have. With expanded services, because again we are --

Just a -- MANAGING DIRECTOR THIEL: -- hearing from everybody that that's needed, we have not done I think what is --

Just a point -- MANAGING DIRECTOR THIEL: -- we have not opened a wellness center yet.

Just a point of information just for clarity. This is where she's going, Adam. When there was a decision made around some table somewhere to expand to the 90 beds, right, it probably would have been prudent to say, hey, members of Council or District Councilmember, this is what we're doing and it may even be interpreted as a triage center. And as you're explaining, it's not a triage center because y'all still working on that plan, but however, we know a sweep or encampment resolution is coming on Wednesday. At the same time, you're queuing up 90 additional beds at an actual facility with services that are going to be provided to those individuals that's going to be housed there, and some of those services include opioid and addiction-related treatment, methadone and addiction- related treatment, fentanyl and addiction-related treatment. And so, it gives the appearance -- if you say it's not the case, we're just talking about what appearance seems like, it's a backdoor way to do a triage center. Now, we're going to take your word that it's not a triage center. But I think what the Minority Leader is saying, in order for us to be partners with the Administration, at least a conversation on the front end, rather say it's the triage center or not, about the expansion of 90 beds and everyone knows that this sweep or encampment resolution is coming because those people got to go somewhere, is the first 90 people going to Fairmount Avenue or they're going to disperse across the City of Philadelphia? But in this particular case, I can generally say I think that's where the Minority Leader is getting at in terms of us. And I think probably more than most on this Council, she's all for treatment and supporting those, and definitely not on the law enforcement side of helping individuals, but the bigger issue is and again as an independent legislative branch, we want to partner with the Administration, but we're the ones that have to defend these decisions when we go out into our neighborhoods. We're on the hot seat when it comes to us going back to our constituents. So I'm not going to speak for her, but I do want to back up what she's saying from the perspective of if we're going to be partners and she said, I want to be helpful, but at least if we get the information on the front end, we can be able to respond in an appropriate manner irregardless of what the press is reporting. We will have the facts when our phone calls are ringing off the hook saying, this is the facts versus this is what some media outlet is actually printing, which may not actually be accurate. And so, that's where -- but the Chair rests his time back to the Minority Leader.

No, thank you so much, Council President. That's exactly what the question was. And then you said there are others, so where are the other ones? If this is something that we're going to do, and I forgot the number, I think there's more than -- if we do a, what is it, encampment resolution and we pick up more than 90 people, is there an overflow location? Where are people going? Most of them aren't going to decide to do treatment. If they decide not to go do the treatment way, is it an arrest? Then what's set up in the prison system for when they get there? So I just -- there's a continuum of care that happens with all of these services. And with Council being left out of the process, it makes us have to continue to ask questions. It seems like we're butting heads, and we're just trying to find the information to determine exactly what's going to happen on the 8th and where are the other locations outside of Fairmount Folks that decide not to go into treatment, and this is probably a police department question, if arrest is the alternative, is the Prison Department set up for withdrawal systems to be in place there? So I understand that you're building a system as you know it. But as someone who's worked a little bit in this treatment area, my questions are coming from the ground, from folks that have been through the system and I just want to know what's happening. Because when the phone calls come trickling down to our personal phone numbers, our City Hall offices, we want to be able to have answers, and right now we do not have answers. And May the 8th is, what, two days from now and we're just trying -- I'm trying to get in front of this. MANAGING DIRECTOR THIEL: Councilmember, I think I've explained multiple times about the system of care that we are building, and I think I've also affirmed several times the encampment resolution is not, let me say again, is not a sweep. People are not being rounded up and deposited at any facilities. And I think Commissioner Bethel can reinforce that. What we have been doing, what we have done so far is exactly what we do with the entire range of City services that we deliver, which is we expand and contract existing services within existing resource to meet the needs of the day. So we have expanded existing services at an existing facility that does the same type of work, providing higher quality and more services for folks who are coming in voluntarily until we are able to build. And we are doing that at other sites that are already doing that kind of work around the City, and we are developing a comprehensive strategy approach and set of facilities that don't currently exist to be able to deliver this as catalyzed by the City and hopefully in concert with medical systems, payers and a larger universe of providers. We've also sent you, Council President and Councilmembers, I think you've received it by now, a memo that talks about what we are doing. You'll see all the things on that list. We are doing all those things while we are trying to address the current demands for low barrier shelter beds. I think the -- the triage center and that isn't necessarily a term. This gets much more technical in terms of the types of beds, and I know you're aware of that. We have not gone to the Commonwealth for licensing to do anything that would approach that at this point. So we are certainly looking at what it would take at Philly Home at Girard and other locations to do that. That decision is not made. And when we brief you before the end of the budget process on the $100 million, which of course is the beginning of the capital investment that we think will be required. And what we're doing in the rest of the system, we will make attempts to make all those things more clear.

The link, the purported link between the encampment resolution and what's happening at Philly Home and Girard, there is not a link between those two things except insofar as people who may already be encouraged to come in, for whatever reason to come in and get help now have another place that they can do it with a higher quality care and expanded services in a facility that we've been operating for a decade for a population of unhoused individuals who are still there.

Is there a possibility that this $100 million that you're requesting will go to support the things that you're currently setting up now? MANAGING DIRECTOR THIEL: Councilmember, yeah, certainly. I think that capital investment which we don't think would be sufficient to fill the gaps that are there in the medium to longer term care continuum, we think that's probably an initial investment, that there's a lot more need. In talking with all of the folks we've talked about, they acknowledge that there's been a market failure to provide that medium- and long-term care. We talked about this at the last budget hearing. So we are going to have to catalyze that and we are working with payers and others to try to find a way to sustain it. So, yes, that $100 million is a down payment on what we think we need to start building and provide this care in a sustainable long-term way.

Adam, Mr. Thiel, just a real quick question along her line of questioning. Her direct line of questioning was the 100 million that we're going to give you for triage centers, will any of that funding go toward this particular expansion of the 90 beds at, what is it called, the Philadelphia old hospital center on 21st and Girard Avenue? Will any of the triage money go toward this particular site? MANAGING DIRECTOR THIEL: Council President, no, that money does not exist right now. And that's capital dollars. We're not using capital dollars.

So when it goes through in the event that we come to some level of agreement, none of the money in the future that is earmarked for triage centers will go to the site at 21st and Girard Avenue, zilch, none? MANAGING DIRECTOR THIEL: We are evaluating multiple options for wellness centers --

You either going to say yes or no -- MANAGING DIRECTOR THIEL: We think -- I don't think --

And we're not being contentious, we're not doing the whole back and forth -- MANAGING DIRECTOR THIEL: I don't have an answer, Council President. I don't have an answer right now.

You don't have an answer for it? MANAGING DIRECTOR THIEL: I don't have an answer right now. We're looking at multiple options. I don't think so because I do think there are other places and other ways, and especially to the extent that that $100 million is probably not going to be enough to do what everybody thinks we need to do.

It seems like I just want to say for the record it's a back-door way to open up a triage center. Now, if you're saying that's not the case, in order for us to be partners, I'm telling you how it comes across, that this is a back- door way to start that process. And I think her line of questioning again was just a real simple yes or no. But when you leave that door open and say, well, we're evaluating, it allows you in the future to say, well, we never said no, we're just going to still invest in rehabbing this particular site. So just wanted to be clear. MANAGING DIRECTOR THIEL: Councilmember, you know, I can't necessarily --

Well, it's Council President. MANAGING DIRECTOR THIEL: Council President, get in the minds of everybody's perceptions. I don't think that Philly Home Girard would be a good long-term investment for those capital dollars. Because as many of you know, it actually is a state-owned facility. We have a lease through 2026. So what we're really looking at is building out that existing bed capacity to deal with the current demand while we evaluate other facilities, understand the numbers, do our due diligence to spend that $100 million as an initial investment in other locations on other more holistic and comprehensive wellness centers.

Okay. Thank you very much. Minority Leader Brooks?

I'm good.

The Chair recognizes Councilmember Isaiah Thomas.

Thank you, Council President. I just want to ask one or two questions. Then I want to put some questions on the record for Councilmember Young who unfortunately couldn't be here today. I listened to Councilmember Brooks' line of questioning, and I think the thing that stood out to me is Councilmember Brooks' willingness to partner, right. I think I heard Councilmember Brooks say multiple times she wants to partner with the Managing Director's Office. I think I listened to the Admin say multiple times they want to partner with Council. In my last line of questioning, I talked about the importance of partnering. I'm wondering from the Managing Director's Office what Councilmembers are you open to partnering with as it relates to brainstorming what happens with the triage centers? MANAGING DIRECTOR THIEL: Councilmember, I think we've demonstrated we are open to all Councilmembers' input and feedback.

So I'm going to respectfully disagree. I think that in this hearing we've communicated some concerns, and I think the fact that people keep asking to partner shows that we don't feel like we are a partner. So I'm hoping that you could come back to us and let us know what Councilmembers you guys are willing to partner with because it's not that we don't want to see the Administration be successful. I listened to you earlier, you said you've explained this multiple times. I'm a teacher myself. And for me when I teach a class and I feel like I've explained something multiple times and there's a lot of people in the class who still are not comprehending the message that I'm trying to communicate, at some point I have to look at my style of trying to instruct and say maybe I need to present it in a way that lands different with people. So I understand that you're frustrated because you feel like you've communicated this multiple times to us. I was a pretty good student. I don't understand. I'm not clear. I don't know what's going on. So I'm wondering maybe if there can be something that is done where the communication can be presented in a different way. I have a lot of staff in my office. We all learn different ways and I don't have a staff member on my team who understands what's going on. And I've asked Councilmembers as well to help me understand what's going on, because I wouldn't be one of the people that I would recommend you partner with because I think there are other offices that are more experienced and better off to be partners with the Administration to kind of navigate this. So I'm going to ask one more time what Councilmembers are you guys willing to -- because you can't partner with all 17 of us. That's not realistic. Clearly, the initiative you have is looking to be in Councilmember Young's District, and I'll put his questions on the record in a little bit, but I mean it's not realistic to partner with all of us. So 5 which ones would the Managing 6 Director's Office be willing to 7 partner with to work with so we 8 could try to get this done in a way 9 where we're all comfortable 10 supporting it? 11 MANAGING DIRECTOR THIEL: 12 Councilmember, first off, I'm not 13 frustrated. Second off, I think 14 we've been clear it is not ready. 15 We are talking about doing 16 something that does not exist at 17 scale to address the policy needs that all of you have articulated over the past couple years.

So if it's not ready, why not wait until next fiscal year to do it, if it's not ready? This is May. We've got to pass the budget in a month. Why not wait until next year? MANAGING DIRECTOR THIEL: Councilmember, I assume that is an option that Council has, would be to not fund the Mayor's bold vision and proposal. We certainly don't see the conditions on the ground can wait. I'll reiterate, we are willing to partner with all of the Councilmembers, all 17, every office. We certainly will send you an invitation. We can have a Councilmember charrette for you and your staffs to attend. We'd love to do that. We think that might be helpful in getting your own ideas for what should or should not be included in this continuum of care, so we'd be happy to do that.

I mean, however you guys want to handle it clearly that's going to be the way you do it. I mean, we're clearly telling you on the record that we want you to be successful. We want to partner with you. We want to try to figure it out. We also said on the record we don't understand what's going on, we are confused. You're telling us on the record that you have explained it multiple times. We're saying we don't comprehend. We're asking to partner with you. You're saying you want to partner with us, but you're showing us something totally different than what you're saying right now. So I'm just going to stop my line of questioning because I think I'm wasting Councilmembers' time on a Monday afternoon. Let me just put Councilmember Young's questions on the record. Councilmember Young who unfortunately couldn't be here but his District is apparently ground zero for some of your actions. Councilmember Young said, What's the plan for the former Philadelphia Nursing Home site? What's the start date for those with drug addictions to begin receiving services? How many total beds will be at the site for the treatment of drug-addicted individuals and how many outpatient clients are participating? I'm sorry. How many outpatient clients are anticipated? And if you can answer those for Councilmember Young who couldn't be here, that would be appreciated. MANAGING DIRECTOR THIEL: Councilmember, let me first say that that facility is not "ground zero" for anything. There are already approximately 200 people who are living there who receive services from the City and --

I'm sorry. For the record when I say ground zero, I'm talking about ground zero as it relates to the miscommunication between the Admin and City Council for this particular project that we're discussing. So when I say ground zero, I'm talking more or less the lack of communication and transparency, because unfortunately a lot of us found out this information from the press, not necessarily from any other communication. And I'm communicating on behalf of Councilmember Young, who had to make a public statement about the issue to let his constituents know that no communication had come to him and that he was made aware when the public was made aware. So if you want to clarify ground zero, that's what I mean when I say ground zero. I was trying to say it the nice way, right. This is the polite way of saying it, but ground zero means there is no communication from us and this is where we are right now. MANAGING DIRECTOR THIEL: Councilmember, I agree the initial article was inaccurate and appreciate the Inquirer for doing some corrections. Again, I think there's a question about what it is. The wellness centers, the wellness system that we are creating does not exist yet and has not started to operate at scale, at capacity. All we are doing now is expanding existing beds and existing services as we do during the winter, as we do at other times of year to address the needs on the ground. That's all we've done. The point at which this facility could become part of that broader care continuum and broad system is the point at which we would go to get additional beds licensed to provide the kinds of services that you were talking about -- that Councilmember Young is talking about. We have not gone through that licensing process yet and we don't anticipate doing that until we've been able to deliver the plan for the $100 million wellness centers and everything that feeds into that.

Thank you, Council President. I just want to note for the record that a lot of the questions that we had to try to move us forward as it relates to budget unfortunately still didn't get answered, and today is callback. And I'm not quite sure how the Managing Director based on his testimony today feels like we have moved closer to passing a budget. If anything, Council President, from my personal opinion I'm more confused than what I was when the day started as it relates to some of the clarity that I thought we would get to move us in a position and be able to pass a budget and support the Admin's will as it relates to addressing some of the issues that we have in the City. My opinion, Council President, unfortunately I did not see us take steps closer towards that today. And I'm hoping that we can get some more information between now and the time when we're supposed to pass the budget so we could support the request of the Admin. But the reality is, Council President, it's very difficult to support some of the requests that's been communicated to us because of the lack of answers that we're getting here today as it relates to our earlier conversation and the conversation we're having right now. I'll rest the rest of my time for the rest of the day and hopefully we can get some answers to Councilmember Young's questions in writing because I don't think his questions were answered either. Thank you, Council President.

Manager Director Thiel, just have your team respond directly to those questions for Councilmember Young who's not available and with us today. That would be helpful. MANAGING DIRECTOR THIEL: Council President, will do.

Thank you. Chair recognizes Councilmember Phillips.

Thank you, Council President Johnson. I wanted to shift gears a little bit. The question that I wanted to focus in on is our speed calming measures in the City of Philadelphia. Right now we have what I've been hearing millions of dollars and I want to say the exact number, the last time I heard was $17 million worth of requests for speed calming measures yet. We do not have a budget that's reflecting that, those numbers of requests residents are calling offices across the City, probably even at the At-large offices about this at this point. Can we get a direct communication that could be sent to every resident from your office about speed calming measures? And the mere fact that we may or may not be able to get to all of them within this fiscal year for whatever reason, because of funding, because of maybe we don't have the human power, whatever that may be, so it could be a direct response from you all so that we don't have to just keep telling residents we're still waiting, we're still waiting, we're still waiting? MANAGING DIRECTOR THIEL: Councilmember, I appreciate that. I think we don't necessarily have the capability to push that out to all the residents. We will put that on the website that has the request form to make sure that everybody understands the reality of those requests and the potential trajectory given the limited resources that we have, which it's a priority. Again, fourth Executive Order of this Administration was Vision Zero, reiterating Vision Zero. Clearly, streets are a priority with all of the dollars, an unprecedented amount of funding going into street repaving. That said, given the number of requests for traffic calming measures, we do not anticipate for a host of reasons that you talked about being able to fulfill all those, and we'll put that disclaimer, if you will, on that website where people make those requests.

Excellent. And also, can we get a letter from your office in writing as well that we could pass out to residents who may not be as Internet-friendly, that same -- MANAGING DIRECTOR THIEL: Councilmember, certainly, absolutely.

Awesome. And then lastly, I just want to make sure that we're also on the same page with helping residents become more transparent with that request, with those speed calming requests. Right now it's kind of like an open and closed ticket on 311. And then also I think on the website it's an open and closed ticket when it comes to speed calming measures. Can we at least get to the point where it says, study requested, study initiated, after the study initiated, what the results of that study or even have the time frame on when they're supposed to get the study, that could be on there so folks know when the study is coming and we hold our city accountable to at least getting the study done on time so that we don't have to keep calling your office or anyone at all in the Streets Department to see, okay, when is the study being done, is it being done, you know, it's always they say six months, but can we get more precise when things are done? MANAGING DIRECTOR THIEL: Councilmember, we don't mind the calls. I think that's a great idea to be able to have a tool, a technology tool, that makes that information readily available, so we will look at what it takes to build that and have it available on our websites.

Yeah, yeah. That would be incredibly important for this budget cycle because that's what people are asking for, and our offices are inundated with that information. What I want to be able to say is the Administration has a clear plan to support that. I think that would be huge. All right. Thank -- oh, and I want to be able to say the Administration has a really clear plan to support that. And just so the record in case my mic wasn't as turned up, I just ask for more transparency around the process when it comes to speed calming measures in the City of Philadelphia because a lot of residents are calling all of our Council offices on that. All right. I think that's it. Thank you, Council President.

Thank you. The Chair recognizes Councilmember Rue Landau, and then next Majority Leader Katherine Gilmore Richardson.

Thank you so much. Just a quick -- first of all, I'm sorry I had to miss some of the morning session, so got a quick catch-up here. I want to start by asking a quick follow-up to the Girard Avenue facility. Can you give us a census of the facility performed for Calendar Year 2023 and 2024 to date? MANAGING DIRECTOR THIEL: Councilmember, we can get that back to you.

Okay. MANAGING DIRECTOR THIEL: The entire facility.

A census of how many people were there, what were the services provided all of 2023 and 2024 to date. MANAGING DIRECTOR THIEL: Yes.

And then I think I just have a statement. As somebody who's coming in listening to all of this now, I used to oversee the Human Relations Commission. We resolved a lot of conflicts. I resolved a lot of conflicts with you. And what I'm hearing today is the antithesis of what we do to kind of bring like minds together. We're being asked to fund the Mayor's bold vision, but given very little concrete information for how it's going to go about and not even any concrete information of how we're going to have future communications like structural ones so we can get to a point. And I would suggest that that is the point that we have to clear up here. We have to have a commitment to the process. We have to have a commitment to the projects. I don't know anybody who's going to write a blank check of $100 million on a trust us when things are trickling out now that are highly concerning. And to me, I would certainly suggest that you, the Administration in general, especially after some of the things we've heard from DBHIDS, OHS, whatever, OHS, overly communicate, keep an open mind, accept opinions and thoughts and viewpoints of others, and just remember from the ground, the community through us that whether we all like it or not, perception is reality. And if we do not do this process together, there's just no way we're coming across the finish line with success. We've got to do it. We are here for you. We want to do it. Every time you say trust us we want to do it, but then something takes us a step backwards. So let's do what we can to start taking steps together. Thank you.

Chair recognizes Councilmember Gilmore Richardson and then Councilmember Nic O'Rourke.

Thank you. Thank you so much, Council President. And thank you again, Managing Director Thiel. I just had one additional clarifying question just for budgetary purposes, for our clarification and understanding. The $1.4 million that we allocated in the last midyear transfer in November of 2023, technically December of 2023, under the previous Administration was for maintenance at the Philadelphia Nursing Home. And then I guess we're seeing in the documents we received this morning another $1.4 million towards maintenance at the Philadelphia Nursing Home, which would be a total of 2.8 million from obviously this fiscal year and then the other half from the forthcoming fiscal year. But the $1.4 million was listed as a part of the I guess almost $16 million request that OHS is making for FY25, my only question with that is where is it reflected in the budget detail? I asked that at the hearing on April 15th, and I just offer that question again for clarification and for a response. The $16 million is not listed anywhere in the proposed FY25 budget detail for OHS. In fact, their overall budget decreases by $2 million. And in addition to that, in the actual budget detail and testimony that was shared with members of Council, the amount of individuals that they are able to service has also decreased. And so, I ask the question only because we cannot see it in the detail. And I did follow up after the hearing on the 15th to try to resolve that question prior to today. But if you could just explain to us where is the proposed million reflected in the budget 14 detail for FY25? 15 MANAGING DIRECTOR THIEL: 16 Councilmember, we'll have to go back and look -- you're talking about in the OHS budget detail?

Well, only because the -- wait, I'm sorry. Repeat that. MANAGING DIRECTOR THIEL: The question you're asking about is in the OHS budget detail, the Office of Homeless Services budget detail where is that dollar figure reflected?

Right, only because this is related to the Philadelphia Nursing Home. And so, you have to recall that -- well, you probably don't because -- MANAGING DIRECTOR THIEL: I don't.

-- remember, you were under Fire at that time. So let me make that clear that was under the previous Administration when you were in the Fire Department. But at that time it was requested for maintenance for Philadelphia Nursing Home. Okay. And that's all we knew. Of course we knew nothing about this new wellness situation that will be happening there at that time. And so, my question is I just want to know where can we look at it in the budget? We received the rationale paperwork this morning that listed out all the contracts, the amounts, the amount of beds. And I'm appreciative of receiving that information. However, that information, where do I find that in your budget detail? MANAGING DIRECTOR THIEL: Councilmember, we will get back to you with the answer for where you find that information in the OHS budget detail.

Okay. I appreciate that. And I only ask because we continue to receive requests to ensure that we are giving you all an additional $16 million, which for proposed FY25 it stated that that is for ensuring that you can maintain current level of service. But really the 1.4 of that 16 is regarding this new proposal, which is why I had asked earlier. So I just want to know can you just show us where it is because I'm afraid that the Administration is requesting 7 million that's not reflected. And 8 if we pass that part of the budget 9 as is, you're not receiving the 16 10 million. Then people will blame it 11 on Council that we did not allocate 12 the additional 16 million when 13 really the Administration never put 14 it in. 15 MANAGING DIRECTOR THIEL: 16 Councilmember, we'll get back to you on where to find those dollars. I can tell you from my recent experience at the former Philadelphia Nursing Home those dollars are sorely needed to serve the existing population, much less potentially expand services beyond that.

Right, and I'm not disagreeing with you. I just want to be clear. And this is not an us-versus-them conversation. This is a clarity conversation to ensure that what you all are requesting is adequately reflected so that we are able to get through this process appropriately. I would never want to be at a space and place where you all have to come back again in the fall and say we need to do another midyear transfer specifically for that department because of let's just say clerical error. Okay. MANAGING DIRECTOR THIEL: Councilmember, we'll make sure that in the budget there's not a clerical error. I do think -- I will not say that we won't be asking for midyear transfers for other things as we continue to build out this system going forward.

I understand, and I did hear you say that the $100 million was just a down payment. That would not be the totality of the anticipated cost for the efforts that you all are seeking to undertake; is that correct? MANAGING DIRECTOR THIEL: Council Majority Leader, that is what we believe right now. Again, as we've stated, we are going to provide a plan. We are not asking anybody to trust us, just give us $100 million and let us spend it. We committed during the last budget hearing to providing where those dollars will go before the end of this budget process and we are going to absolutely do that. And we think -- because remember, we are still putting this together. We committed to it. We're not there yet. We are going to show you I think -- I would love if $100 million would cover our needs, capital needs. I don't think it will. So we'll show you where that $100 million would go and also talk to you about where we think there might be other opportunities for additional funding, federal, state, philanthropic and certainly hope to get your ideas and enlist your support to fill in the rest of that capital stack. And please rest assured we are listening. In fact, coming out of the last budget hearing I think Councilmember Ahmad made some comments about pets, so we have that -- we absolutely heard that and have started to talk with ACCT about how as part of this longer term plan we can address those needs. Now, as you can imagine that process getting to dollars and cents, our dedicated staff are literally working around the clock to get this put together in a form that we can get to Council as we committed and hopefully get your support.

Thank you. Thank you very much for the clarification. I look forward to receiving the information regarding the $16 million. Thank you, Council President.

You're welcome. The Chair recognizes Councilmember Nic O'Rourke.

Thank you, Council President. And good afternoon, Director Thiel. I wanted to ask given the next hearing if -- I wanted to direct my questions to both yourself, Director Thiel, as well as Director Geer, if he's willing to come forward as well. Is that appropriate, Council President?

(Gestured).

Thank you, sir. If what I'm about to ask and say sounds repetitive, I hope that it communicates more -- not just a lack of paying attention or redundancy, but more so emphasis on some collective concern I think that's in this body. I want to start by acknowledging my colleagues who are working hard to find solutions to the many challenges facing Kensington. I know and have seen those very real challenges. I do believe that we need to work together for everyone in Kensington and people suffering in addiction across our city. That entire community deserves better. The entire community deserves more. But as we think about what solutions look like, if we aren't thoughtful with the roll-out, if we ram everything through an expedited timeline that seems more geared at communicating urgency than effective execution without discussion and care and intentional collaborative planning, I know -- not I think, I'm not guessing -- I think we all know that there will be more harm caused and unintended consequences. So we need to dig into the details with the Administration, as you've heard several folks say that's where the devil is and I don't like the devil. A few weeks ago I asked Director Adam Geer and Managing Director Thiel about the warning and opportunity phase of the Kensington Community Revival. If you recall that from the previous hearings, you both said that you would reserve some of the response for the police department. So now that I have everyone here I wanted to return to that conversation. On April 16th I asked about the roll-out of the Kensington sweeps and frankly the lack of detail and transparency provided to City Council and the public around that effort is frustrating to say the least, frustrating in general, and I know that you have spoken about the term sweeps. I asked about when and how folks in Kensington would be warned. And at the time, you all were not able to provide the details, but I have since learned and as mentioned today on several occasions, that orange notice signs went up as early as April 8th telling people to clear out by May 8th, which is in two days as we've already said. And I didn't learn that information from the Managing Director's Office or from PPD. We learned that from community members on the ground who shared their fears and their concerns with our office and journalists reporting on the issue. Now, we're learning from an Inky article that this May 8th sweep is separate from the Kensington Community Revival plan, which you've also articulated, Director Thiel. Yet it seems to be aimed at the same goals, as we've kind of already outlined as well. Both to Thiel and Geer, did you both know about the orange encampment resolution warning posters in Kensington during our April 16th budget hearing?

I'm sorry. First of all, good morning.

Good morning, brother.

Good morning, Councilmember. And good morning Majority Leader, fellow Councilmembers. I just couldn't hear that because it got a little bit muffled at the end. Can you repeat that question?

Yes. And actually good afternoon, gentlemen. I think I probably got us on the wrong foot this afternoon. The question is did you both know about the orange encampment resolution posters in Kensington during our April 16th budget hearing?

I know that we normally post those encampment resolution postings around. I cannot recall whether on that date I knew.

Okay.

Could probably go back in time and figure that out for you.

Did you happen to know, Director Thiel, respectfully, sir? MANAGING DIRECTOR THIEL: Councilmember, I've been working on a lot of things and I couldn't tell you if on those dates. And also, to be clear I'm not sure that our procedure for posting encampment resolutions has Council notification on it so --

No, I'm not even asking if we knew. I'm asking if you gentlemen knew. MANAGING DIRECTOR THIEL: That's something we can go back and look at.

If not, it's possible that maybe you had a lot of things going on and maybe it did come across but you didn't know. But if it wasn't communicated, this is concerning to me that PPD would have been putting out encampment resolution signs in Kensington and not communicating that clearly with you, Director Thiel, or with you, Director Geer.

Oh. Well, for clarification, yes, so our office through our Opioid Response Unit and our interagency people folks who have been working on that encampment resolution posting including Law, Law takes a look at that, there was absolutely communication. And then I do know that by the time we were ready to go to print, so to speak, with those encampment resolutions it had been vetted by or ORU had been vetted by our Law Department, it had been embedded by the PPD and ready for posting. So I just can't tell you exactly when the timing was, but there was absolutely communication throughout that entire process to make sure that it was legally correct, that it had the correct information, that we weren't sending the wrong messages to the community and to the folks who were going to be out there reading it, so we did take that --

But it never made it to you gentlemen as Directors of both Public Safety as well as Managing Director? It never made it to your desk to know that information in the midst of budget hearings where those sorts of questions would be asked? MANAGING DIRECTOR THIEL: Councilmember, I think that I'm not necessarily understanding the question at the budget hearing that is germane to this. I will say that we have --

It's germane because I really, really wanted to know about the timing when we asked about it -- MANAGING DIRECTOR THIEL: No, the question you're ask -- that's the question I'm not sure that I recall from the budget hearings. This encampment resolution, this is a procedure that has been in place for some time. This is a matter of routine business. Now, we understand it may not feel routine to a lot of folks. So to the extent that we are involved, for instance, I don't necessarily get a personal phone call every time or notification every time the fire department responds to an incident. This would be similar in my mind. This is a matter of business and routine business, so I'm not sure -- there are a lot of things that we do on a daily basis and I am confident in our staff that they are working together with our colleagues to do this work of the City.

Thank you, Director. I asked the question because -

Pardon me, Councilmember O'Rourke.