I apologize for the interruption. I really do. For the record, I would just like to ask respectfully if you could respond to the questions as asked. Thank you.
I asked the question because this has been articulated by a number of our colleagues here. Partnership is what is expected to be effective in this as representatives of the body of the City. People ask us these questions and if there's not communication that's even making it to you two as Directors about the active ongoing things that are happening that's concerning, the Administration has talked a lot about building back trust with the public, how can you expect to build better relations if you kick things off with this Administration by withholding information from City Council partners? So that's why I'm trying to dig into when you knew what for things that are actively taking place. I don't want to park right there. I wanted to just state that. In addition to the orange notice signs, could you describe what type of word of mouth outreach and warning has been provided to folks in the area?
Absolutely. So first of all, I do have to go back because I've been involved in countless calls every week regarding the encampment resolution 22 and the drafting of that encampment resolution up to that point, so I can probably go back to my calendar and sort of do the math. But at least two meetings per week and maybe three meetings per week going back in time on the encampment resolution. I do want to re-emphasize that this is the encampment resolution, the last one we did was in August. I think we've done four, five, six total as a City. We've done this before. It is a matter of routine course. I believe that the Director of our Opioid Response Unit, I don't know how many people on Council she sent out our intention to posting the encampment resolution but --
Respectfully I just heard the bell ring. Respectfully, sir, I really mean no disrespect to you or Director Thiel. It has been made abundantly clear that the very specific questions that have been asked by colleagues are receiving extremely general answers, vague answers. And what I'm trying and attempting to do is to drain out the bits of detail that we can get that I can get to certain folks. So some of the questions that I'm asking I'd like actual specific ans -- respectfully specific answers to. Madam Chair, can I continue with a few of these questions?
Great. Pardon me one moment. There's no one else in the queue, Councilmember O'Rourke, so please continue. Thank you very much.
Thank you. Thank you very much. And again, I don't mean no harm. I just need to get this clear. Which groups specifically have been deployed to conduct outreach around the specific warning notices and how many times have they visited the area?
So again, we can 8 get you specifics. There's been 9 heightened outreach from our Office 10 of Homeless Services outreach team 11 and our Department of Behavioral 12 Health also outreach teams are out 13 on the street. I believe that 14 they've had so far tremendous 15 success. I believe they've had 16 over 700 individual engagements. 17 And by the way, each one of 18 those engagements is just one more 19 opportunity for us to reach out, to 20 touch folks, right, to offer 21 services. We know it may not 22 happen on the first, second or 23 third time. So they're out there, 24 and I commend them for doing that 25 700 -- I believe to date since we've sort of picked it up in this 3000, 3100 block, they've had 17 --
If 9 you can give me the names of -- and 10 thank you for the work. That 11 sounds awesome. If you can give us 12 the names of those actual groups 13 that are conducting the outreach 14 and the specific warning notices 15 and how many times they visit those 16 areas, that would be super helpful. 17 I want to make sure that we're very clear about this as well. Will arrests begin on May 8th, and you've already answered this question but I want it on the record again, will arrests begin on May 8th for folks who refuse treatment or other shelter options in Kensington?
Great. Then what exactly will begin on May 8th and when will Phase 2 arrests begin? I know there were a couple times you've spoken to this forcefully quite a bit already on this question what are the distinctions between encampment resolutions and sweeps. You said you mentioned August of last year. What was that specific example? Can you detail what the distinction is between those two things?
I don't even actually want to opine as to what a sweep is because that has connotations. I just don't want to go there.
Encampment resolution, let's focus there. An encampment resolution is the legal process by which when there are particular physical structures for public safety reasons or what have you that are specifically articulated so we have to have facts that would allow us to have an encampment resolution. Most often than not though there's tents, things obstructing the sidewalk so that individuals, let's say, in wheelchairs or otherwise could not egress safely on particular sidewalks. So this is the legal process that's been vetted, as I said, that we've done numerous times before that allows the City to go in and essentially remove those physical structures and return those blocks basically to what they look like, the normal, normal City blocks, right. During that period, this is not -- and again, I want to re-emphasize, this has nothing to do with arresting people. However, we have an awesome opportunity for our very talented folks, and again OHS, DBHIDS, in the weeks leading up to the resolution and the day of the resolution to engage them to try and get them on board with services, to try and connect them to services. And we found when we do these resolutions that we are quite successful in doing that. So they happen to be really great periods of time for the City and for the folks who are getting those opportunities.
So I hear you on that's what an actual encampment resolution is. What exactly -- so that's what's beginning on May 8th, basically a legal procedure that will open up the pathway for you to remove physical camps itself but not people itself. Gotcha.
When will the Phase 2, as I'm assuming arrests, when will those begin since that's not what's happening on the 8th? And then also what date is that specifically?
Okay. Okay. I'll hold this for the police department. Okay. You will still be here when the police department comes up; is that correct?
I'm with the MDO. That's how my testimony came down. So if you have additional questions, I can answer them now or I can stick around if you'd prefer.
I do have some more -- again, they're all detail-oriented questions and if you're saying -- I think they are more towards PPD after you all. Madam Chair, I'm going to go ahead and relax my time until they come back up. Managing Director Thiel, are you staying as well or are you going to cut out after this, sir? MANAGING DIRECTOR THIEL: (Inaudible).
Okay. Understood. Very good. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you. Thank you so much, Minority Whip. We will now proceed with the Philadelphia Police Department. (Witnesses approached Witness table.)
Good afternoon, Commissioner and Deputy Commissioners. We thank you so much for your patience this afternoon. Please state your name for the record and proceed with whatever testimony you have. COMMISSIONER BETHEL: So no testimony. We're here as a second time around. So Commissioner Kevin Bethel, Philadelphia Police Commissioner. DEPUTY COMMISSIONER STANFORD: John Stanford, First Deputy. DEPUTY COMMISSIONER HEALY: and Deputy Commissioner Francis Healy.
Yes. Well, thank you all very, very much for being here. Thank you for your work and your service. I truly enjoy working with each of you and just want to uplift the work that you all are doing. We will now proceed with Minority Leader Brooks.
All right. I'm kind of sorting through all my questions here to make sure that I'm -- okay. I'm not really sure. I think this might have been for OHS. But my question is how much money are we spending for encampment resolution? The question is coming because I'm not really sure -- I'm dating back from when we had the encampment before. We spent money to move people around and put them in housing. Some folks we still haven't been able to track again, don't know where they are and still end up back out on the street. So the question is how much money are we spending for this encampment resolution and are there specific services connected to folks as we move people along? What are the services that are guaranteed to prevent long-term homelessness or whatever the situations that we find in the street? COMMISSIONER BETHEL: Yeah. Some of that moves outside of my area, but I'll give you an overview. I mean, the encampment process has been happening since 2017. This encampment from talking to my team I believe it may be our 27th or 28th encampment measure that we have, this resolution. So as you heard earlier, this is not new. This is part of the cadence of the work. At this point, we have individuals who have totally taken this. So it's not only -- we technically could be arresting them for obstructing the highway because the entire sidewalk is now lost on a few of those blocks, the 3,000, 3100 block of Kensington Avenue where actually fully you got to go on the street to walk by. Through that process, that is not our process. We work with our Office of Homeless Services. We work with the Behavioral Health team. They will go in and do that process. Now, what happens, when we started this resolution, there was about 75, maybe 80 individuals there. Once a notice went up posted by us in the Philadelphia Police Department in collaboration with the entire team, the posting went out, that number starts to drop. So right now we see from a total that may have been 75 to 80 is about 50. My understanding from historical knowledge from the team that works with me, by the time we execute on the location, there may be about 20 individuals left. That's when the partners will go in, have the conversation with those individuals. Many of them will get up and leave during that time period. The ones that stay often times are the ones who say I will take services and homeless services and the other team works with them. There are no arrests made in that process. We actually do not execute that strategy with them, but we're there in the event that something happens to protect the team that's going in. But that is all done by the partners. That is not done by the police department, and that is not an execution of our Phase 5 strategy that we outlined in our plan.
So since you put the sign -- the signs have went up and you said folks have disseminated from the area, have you seen a buildup of folks in other parts of the area or the City? And what is the solution to provide long-term solutions for homeless folks in the City, do you know? I mean, I know this is not your expertise that you guys -- COMMISSIONER BETHEL: No, I've been at it for 38 years and we have not resolved the homeless issue since I can remember, right. And as a cop here in Center City, I still see just as many homeless as I did 38 years ago. And so, it's been an issue for us. We know that. We are preparing for some displacement, but we're also using that same strategy. For example, at the airport we had a large buildup of individuals at the airport. My team worked with Tinicum, because part of the -- and Tinicum Township, we worked with our Office of Homeless Services, our Behavioral Health team, and we were able to move those individuals. Some went into treatment. Some we don't know where they went. They may have found other places to go. And so, we'll start working that micro strategy. We can see today that the numbers were at one point 1800 individuals in Kensington. We know during the summer we get a surge, so people are leaving and coming on a regular basis. Right now by our head count, as we do similar to what they do in Center City, we believe we have about 565 individuals in that area. And we go from Jasper to E, I believe. Where's Pedro? At Jasper to E, Tioga to -- DEPUTY COMMISSIONER ROSARIO: Tioga to Indiana. COMMISSIONER BETHEL: Tioga to Indiana. So we take a larger swath, not just the center court. I know that was discussed earlier. It's much bigger than that. And we'll move our men and women to be able to address any displacement that we see. I know earlier he talked about 95. Under 95 -- I know Councilman Thomas talked about that. That is technically private property. PennDOT has elected not to go into a charging process, so my team does go down there and offer service to them. I think as we start to go through this model even greater and move more effectively, we'll be asking them to join into the strategy we're going to turn full.
Okay. You mentioned about arrests, so this is more -- so I know there's a list of crimes that people could be arrested for related to narcotics, including sex work, quality of life and other crimes. Can you outline all the specific crimes that people will be arrested for during this? COMMISSIONER BETHEL: So I think we're not -- I hear it sometimes, the men and women have been down there for a decade. I think the clearing of Amtrak I think was in 2017, right. And so, they've been down here. Our KP team, our Kensington team has been down there, police officers have been down there for quite some time. Many of the cases when making arrests have gone to our police-aided diversion model where folks are not arrested. And there, there was hope that they would get them into services and be able to revise those. So we're not going down there with an arrest policy. What we're going down there to do is stop the open sales of drugs. And so, it would be an outside kind of end strategy, going in there to make sure that individuals are not openly using needles in the public sphere and all of those other quality-of-life issues that we would have addressed anywhere in the City of Philadelphia where we stopped doing. And now, will the arrests come from that? Yes, but my feeling is as we start to change the norms down there that what has been allowed before but not allowed anymore, then we will see that they will adjust. Oh, hey, guess what, you cannot sit out here on the corner and shoot up openly, oh, you can't do these things in here because we're going to have workforces, so that will be the downstream impact of our work, will be, okay, if you're not going to follow the law, then we're going to take you in for unlawful activity and we are going to move forward with an arrest. But we're not going down there with a number count. We don't think we're going to arrest ourselves out of this problem. We're not going in with the model of being all arrests. We hope that some of those arrests will move individuals into treatment and they will take that as an opportunity, but we also -- so not locking some up for a needle of fentanyl and Xanax -- I mean, alprazolam is not going to send them up to the Road, right. We know that. And so, we're hoping through this balanced approach but we're being very fluid in our strategy. This has not been done. We've talked to our colleagues in San Francisco and our colleagues in Boston. It's a very different and challenging dynamic for both of those entities. And these are kind of the three open-air drug markets in the nation. We happen to have the third one, but I think we were the top one. It's going to be significantly challenged. And I want this body to know we know that going in. We're being very fluid in our strategy, being very humbled in our strategy because we don't have all the answers. And some of it we won't know until we get in there and activate. I mean, because if I look back in 2017 when they cleared out the Amtrak it was only about 75 to 100 people at that time that they thought was down in the tracks and they were going to get them services. I don't know how it went from 150 to now 550. Because at that time, the conversation was we're going to get bedding and treatment and all those things were going to align seven years ago. I used to work that area before some of you in this room 22 were born in here. 38 years ago in 1986 and then 1991 when I worked in the area, individuals lived down in those tracks. So this is how long it's been going on. It's going to take some time to unravel it.
And I totally agree. This has been a long issue that we haven't resolved and now we're coming up with solutions to try to make it better. My concern is as we start the resolution process and we're moving folks throughout the City, is there a plan to make sure that folks are receiving the adequate services, whether it's housing, whatever support services that they need wherever they may settle because some of these folks are actually homeless. So just moving them from one corner to another does not resolve the issue of homelessness. And I know this is -- COMMISSIONER BETHEL: No, no --
-- not your thing, but my concern is -- and I know it's happening as we go. But as they shift into other communities and neighborhoods, what are we doing to prevent the duplication of what we already allowed to happen in other parts of the City? COMMISSIONER BETHEL: Yeah. Here's what I will guarantee you, Madam: That's not happening. We cannot allow Kensington to be replicated anywhere in the City again ever, right. That should be our first course of business. And so, we're going to be very proactive. And as we went down into the airport, 30th Street, we now and then get these flare-ups. Even in Center City here where we start to see some shifting, everyone is concerned and we have those same concerns. We think we build enough of a model that we have enough resources to be able to address those as we go along. But if not, I mean we will be working with our partners, Homeless Services and others to help us through this process. But we anticipate -- there's a large percentage down there that are not even from the City, right. We know that just by when we're bringing them through our PAD program. And so, we have already talked to some of our counties who've already reached out to us and said, listen, if you encounter somebody from our county, we have the system now set up to bring them to us and we're going to be able to provide service for them. Well, that's a homerun for us because we know we're getting some of the individuals coming from other counties. And for them to reach out to us, clearly they know that they have individuals -- I mean, these are people's children and families and loved ones as well. And so, we're going to try to use as much of the system we can. But I think, Madam, I think the system has to activate now. I think it's been sitting. And I think part of what we're doing now because we're going to go in there with our work is really going the first time to really push the system to see where it could go. Because I mean, I may get in trouble by making a statement, but the harm reduction model I thought was built around this. When I took over, I thought we're just going to turn the triangle upside down and be able to sit down, realize, I thought all these beds were there, right. I thought the harm reduction model was built around that. And so, just also be mindful we're not going in to lock up 565 people because we know the system cannot take that. We're going to be very deliberate and very -- I mean, this is going to be a long gain. So 565 people may go into treatment over two years. It's not going to be, hey, every -- this week we're going to grab 500 people and put them into a bedding system that only has 90. We hear our colleagues say they have 90 beds. And so, part of it will be some people are not going to go right away, so it'll be this methodical day-to-day, week-over- week, probably month-over-month process to start to be able to -- some people may not go into treatment five months from now. And so, if you start rotating that system, I think we should have enough beds to be able to do what we need to do. But I don't think we're going to know all the answers, ma'am, until we get in there and start to do the work.
And I'm going to say this again for the record. I would like to be a partner in moving it through, but it's hard to support what you don't understand. So I appreciate you clarifying the goal and procedure. If we want to bring real change to our City, all City agencies need to be working together. And Council shouldn't be us versus them. It should be all of us, because the phone calls come to our offices. If we can't answer the questions effectively as to what exactly is happening, we're not able to be good partners. So the questions are really grounded around as you're building this, it would be helpful if we just have some idea of what's going to happen. And that's why arrest records and all of these things are important for us to know so we can support or if it's something we can't support, just to call like, how was this done and how can we partner to prevent this from happening again. And this is kind of why we're questioning it's not that. We're immediately accusing wrongdoing. We're trying to make sure that we're all working towards the same outcomes. COMMISSIONER BETHEL: Yeah, and I appreciate that, ma'am. And we have. I mean again, I'm more than willing to work with the President. We worked with Councilman Driscoll, Councilman Lozada, Councilman Squilla, Councilman Harrity to make sure they were informed. We briefed them on our plan before we executed. They've been coming to our meetings to make sure, but we're more than open to that conversation to be able to brief other members. But we thought at the time where we even, you know, Pedro met with even our State Representatives to make sure they were aware. So clearly, we see a gap and we'll be more than willing to be able to brief the Councilman At-large, Councilwoman At-large, because of the questions you're getting about where we're going and what the next steps are. Absolutely be more than welcome to do that.
So just to be specific about what I'm asking, so our office has heard from people, are seeing people being displaced from Kensington in Germantown and Manayunk. Harm reduction people in Camden are all saying that people are coming there. Not that it's a problem, but we can't either deny or know that it's really happening. So the question is have you noticed that? And I guess you said so when you said your counterparts in Montgomery County know that we're sending folks back to them and they want to be in support, but how can we be helpful in helping you guys manage some of this because the phone calls are coming to our office and our job is to help people find and get services and get connected? Yeah, how can we help with -- COMMISSIONER BETHEL: I think what I'll do, I'll talk to Commissioner Rosario, who's leading that effort down there to figure out how we can create that communication link. Because those things that we don't know, right, we won't know unless probably coming from your constituents that we're seeing something in Germantown or other areas so we can monitor that. We can actually probably look through our records and see because we may have stopped that individual, so using our records we'd be able to determine whether we're seeing that displacement. I work with Kevin Thomas from our team. We have an internal dashboard that we're using to be able to track and we can add another layer to that, but I don't want to give you a specific answer, but I understand the gap you're describing now. And I think we can work through so you would have a pipeline to Commissioner Rosario's office to say, Commissioner, we're seeing something here that we hadn't seen before and then we can go out there and address it because we do want to get it early as soon as possible. And your folks are on the ground, you're on the ground, you'll know much quicker than we will. And so, we would definitely embrace that level of communication so we can respond accordingly.
And my last question for now is will body cams be worn as you guys are doing the encampment resolution to make sure that the integrity of all of this is what we expect it to be? And -- COMMISSIONER BETHEL: Yes.
-- I know it was a shortage of body cams going on so that's kind of why. Is this an operation that will include body cams? COMMISSIONER BETHEL: Yeah. So part of -- all of our districts now have body-worn cameras so we're moved into our special unit so we're good with that. Part of the work that we worked out with the District Attorney's Office, we are going to be using body cameras when we operate in there. The Homeless Services will go in. If we're not activated, we won't be in there with our cameras. At that point we will be off the scene. We will not be involved in taking down the encampments. That will be done by the Homeless Services, that's their operation. But if we are all to come in or anything we're going to do operationally in there, we will be wearing our cameras. That's an agreement that we made with the District Attorney as well, that when we're operating in that space cameras will be fully on for mere encounters, any encounter we're having in there to make sure we're properly capturing what's going on and just gives the checks and balances as we go through this process.
Thank you so much, Commissioner. COMMISSIONER BETHEL: You're welcome, ma'am.
Thank you. And last question, Councilmember Nic O'Rourke, Minority Whip.
Thank you, Council President. Good afternoon, Commissioner Bethel and gentlemen. COMMISSIONER BETHEL: How are you, sir.
Thank you for being here and I wanted to continue with the line of questioning that I had earlier and try to weave this together. You -- COMMISSIONER BETHEL: And I got my attorney with me too. So if you start -- if he turns over, I can't answer that question on the advice of my attorney.
Copy. You have already kind of clarified that the intent is not to jam 500 people in tomorrow so that's encouraging. If the way that I form these questions or the way that I phrase these questions sounds like I didn't hear that, just know that I did, but I'm trying to get to something else here. On what day specifically do you have in mind -- if there isn't one you can also just say that -- will arrests that I feel like have already been communicated from the Administration as it relates to Kensington, if necessary, will happen, what day will that begin? We're calling it in our notes Phase 2 of the Kensington Community -- COMMISSIONER BETHEL: So my expectation and for operational purpose I won't give you specific dates, but we're going to put you kind of in a timeline. Clearly, the first part of the process, once the encampment process is completed and that resolution is done, we anticipate shortly thereafter which is ongoing now to continue is to start to give notice to the community that we're going to move into Phase 2.
Okay. COMMISSIONER BETHEL: And so, we shortly thereafter this plan -- I mean, once the encampment is completed, then we will start to do our work that we outlined in our 100-day plan moving into our Phase 1 approach. Now, I will say to you Phase 1 will never stop.
Copy. Thank you for clarifying that. Commissioner, do you have a general rough idea about when we shift into Phase 2 as we continue on with Phase 1? COMMISSIONER BETHEL: I think we will give Phase 2 not months --
Nine months? You said nine months? COMMISSIONER BETHEL: No, not months.
Say it -- COMMISSIONER BETHEL: Not months, but weeks.
Weeks, okay. Gotcha. COMMISSIONER BETHEL: Weeks, I mean through that process. We will go through and give because I mean at that point we will be very much working with the organizations down in Kensington to give everyone an opportunity, and then very shortly thereafter, we will start to move in Phase 2. And that can fluctuate depending on --
Duly noted. COMMISSIONER BETHEL: If we're getting -- if we're in Phase 1 and we're getting a great response, right, if the fact that folks are realizing similar to what we do with our encampment, then we will continue to stay in that space.
Copy. COMMISSIONER BETHEL: I mean, because the ultimate goal is to get as many people to leave there willingly. And so, if we're seeing great activity and we're seeing folks who historically have said I'm not going, then I think that's a win for us, and we're going to continue to push behind that.
Thank you, sir. So in a matter of weeks roughly, very roughly, but in a matter of weeks arrests will begin? COMMISSIONER BETHEL: There's no -- I mean, I hear what -- the arrests, and I'll repeat what I said before. I mean, the officer has to have probable cause, reasonable suspicion to make an arrest. There is no activation of Kevin Bethel or Commissioner Bethel or anybody on my team sending anyone in there with the expectation to make arrests. I mean, now with the add of individuals that are going to go down are they likely to see more, but here's my thing, there are drug-salers down there that are going to be addressed. We're doing that now, right. And so, part of our strategy will be a comprehensive strategy. It will not just be focusing on those users.
I want to shift this back to a certain lane though, Commissioner. COMMISSIONER BETHEL: Okay.
At some point arrests may have to happen -- COMMISSIONER BETHEL: Arrests are happening down there now.
Right, so that's kind of what we're saying. So whenever that is, it sounds like It'll be not months, but weeks -- Council President, I'm sorry. You had your hand up. I'm sorry.
Just a point of information I just want clarity on regarding the drug dealing part, right, which I'm all for. Are we stepping up our efforts to have part of your budget, are you expanding undercover operations? Is Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms a part of this? Is DEA a part of this? I'm not even getting at the people who need treatment. I'm talking about the guys that Jim Harrity talks about that sell blocks at a time, right. And along the lines of the arrest conversation, I just want to get an idea of that part of the operation in terms of how you move forward? COMMISSIONER BETHEL: So we've been operating in there already, right. We started operating not shortly after I arrived not waiting for any dates because selling of drugs in that community has always been, it is one of the highest drug markets on the East Coast, right, coming off the 95 corridor where it has sit for years. I worked in Narcotics for years and was down there for 11 quite some time. So we met with -- 12 myself, Commissioner Stanford and 13 others on my team met with our DEA 14 partners, our Attorney Generals, 15 FBI, as they call them the Fed head group you can imagine, to be able to say that we need you to be focusing on this area on this level of drug activity in this pocket. And so, we've been down there doing a lot of work already because it was necessary as we move forward. And so, as we move into the arrest posture, Councilman, I mean we understand that we're going to increase our deployment down there. Part of it is going to be a very visible display of something the community has not seen in quite some time. And it is going to be an effort to -- and folks are going to make some decisions. We anticipate that some are going to say, this ain't the place to be anymore. We anticipate that many of them are going to retreat and leave and be very legal about what they do, which means they're going to go into some very further processes to do that. We are not leading nor are we training our folks to go down there and say arrest or to do that, you know what I mean. But we do believe that even in those situations where we make an arrest, we're going to continually offer people opportunities to go to services. We're going to continually make that part of our structure. I mean, I never share my story, but my brother who was addicted to crack only went to services after the judge told him you'll go. He would eventually lose his life after he got through his recovery because he lost his ailment.
I'm sorry to hear that, sir. COMMISSIONER BETHEL: No, I appreciate it. But part of that is understanding that all of this will work together. And I understand there's many people who are walking in the process saying, your arresting is not going to get people into treatment. And we know that. We all know that as well. We understand that's not going to be our model, that 100 people we get -- some of it is going to take some significant impact to get that to happen.
Council President, were you -- did you get what you needed?
So I wasn't really going down that road. COMMISSIONER BETHEL: Okay. I'm trying to give --
At some point, right, arrests will be taking place. We are arresting, that will happen as a part of the process. The issue is many folks with acute physical and behavioral health conditions will likely be caught up in that, that'll be passed off to at this point Philadelphia prisons. This is where I'm going. As someone who cut their teeth in organizing around mass incarceration and decarceration and who has myself personal experience with family being deeply impacted by our country's carceral system, this is concerning to me, especially given the state of the Philadelphia prison facilities today. Let me reread a quote I read a few weeks back from the ongoing federal monitor report detailing our prison conditions and the imperative for rapid decarceration and I quote, "PDP's only conceivable pathways to compliance remain some combination of population reduction and increased staffing. The City would initiate a coordinated effort among local justice partners to pursue all opportunities for population reduction. Without a population reduction, PDP's conditions will descend further into constitutional inadequacy, and health and safety will continue to decline. Staff will remain in acute fear and the indignity of their working conditions will remain a cultural bar to humane treatment of the 4,700 people confined in PDP facilities." Every day these facilities are risking the health and safety and violating the constitutional rights of nearly 5,000 people inside them now. Moreover, almost 90 percent of these people are being held without yet standing trial. Can any of us here walk us through what Phase 2 of the Kensington Community Revival plan means for Philadelphia prisons and the thousands of people that are inside them already? COMMISSIONER BETHEL: I can't speak to what the impact is going to be. Many of these individuals are going to get locked up for low-level offenses. But let's -- I was here in 2013 through -- where we worked on the MacArthur Project. At that time, the conversation then was reduce the number of folks going into incarceration. Borne from that was ultimately the PAD program where we put thousands of individuals through the process of diverting them with no consequences, no 6 anything to it, it was hopefully that they take services, maybe they will take services and all the times not taking services. And at some point the -- at some point how far, I don't know how far we'll go. We know that many of the offenses, we have the Accelerated Misdemeanor Program that we believe is going to be a great tool where they will not go into further deeper into the system. We know that our work will be trying to when an officer was given a choice to put somebody and lock them up or if they want to go to treatment, that we would in lieu of locking them up give them the treatment. We're going to do our best.
Yeah. COMMISSIONER BETHEL: But what we're not going to do is continue to allow this behavior to just go unabated in a neighborhood that is really suffocating and as you know --
And, Commissioner, we have to -- I hear that and that all deeply resonates. The thing I want to get out and I'll just share here, the federal monitor from that quote that I just read noted that we are performing very poorly when it comes to behavioral health even up on State Road. In December, a few factoids for the record, only 58 percent of health care referrals were made in their required time frames on State Road. The rate of urgent referrals completed in hours was 23 23 percent on State Road. The number 24 of routine referrals completed in five days was under half at 49 percent. Two people died of an overdose on State Road last year and four people had fatal overdoses in 2022 on State Road. Critically the risk of overdose is times 6 higher for people recently 7 returning from prison. 8 These are terrifying signs 9 when you're thinking about again 10 when we're still in this space of a plan being rolled out to enact this that's not really clear. That's concerning for me because when we enact these things, these folks have to go somewhere and the places that they're going themselves are not -- and you know this, I'm telling you things you already know, but these things are not prepared to receive them. So I want to get real clear on the answers, which is why I tried to be so poignant with my asking. How do you expect Philadelphia prisons to be prepared for a wave of new arrests filled with unique physical and behavioral challenges? COMMISSIONER BETHEL: How I expect the prisons? I mean, the prisons --
And really this is the reason why I would want the other -- COMMISSIONER BETHEL: No. 10 But I mean the -- listen, we'll see when we get through this process as to how many -- we're making projections that we don't even see yet. We're making these assumptions that we don't see yet. The system as I shared earlier, we are going to have to be very nimble and very fluid in our process. If we see this as virtually impossible that I was sitting here as a Commissioner working under this Mayor and this Administration would force 1,000 people up to the prison and know that they can't take it, at that point then we have to make a different decision, this is not working, right, because it benefits no one for me to sit there and try to shove things into a system that's not prepared to accept that. And so, I think there's this incremental process if we say, hey, I locked up and the prison 9 is starting to see some kind of 10 shift. And they're starting to 11 say, well, we can't handle that, 12 then we have to come and 13 communicate as a part of the team 14 working under the Managing Director 15 and working with Adam Thiel to be 16 able to say, all right, Kevin, we 17 have to make an adjustment now. 18 I'm not going to sit in 19 this process and allow us to shove 20 anything anywhere that's not going to be effective and not going to get -- our endgame should be able to neutralize and get that community back to their baseline and then really be able to work across the City to be able to do those things that we need to do effectively around the homeless issue. But I just want to make sure we're clear, Councilman. We're locking people up down there every day. It is one of my most violent pockets in the City of Philadelphia as well. So we're down there making arrests on a regular basis for a whole plethora of things that are going on. And so, will we have an increase potentially of arrests? There's no 16 question that will happen. Some people are going to be resistant to saying, hey, if the cops have walked by you shooting up needles, selling drugs and doing it in front of you and then all of a sudden a shift change, there is going to be some people that say, I don't believe that, the cop usually drives by, he or she doesn't do anything, that model is changing, right. And I think quickly we may find a quick surge of activity. And then there's going to be a renorming.
I got you. COMMISSIONER BETHEL: But we're going to be very, very methodical, very deliberate. We're not rushing. We're going to really take our time. Let the system catch up to us. Because as you heard the Managing Director talk about the beds that he has and trying to accomplish, it's going to take -- seven years we've been here --
Sure. COMMISSIONER BETHEL: I've been in this seat for 127 days, right. It's going to --
And you also are not the head of the Prisons Department. You are the Police Commissioner and you're just one part of this puzzle. So I just want to communicate that --
-- time. Because it's this notion around here that everybody gets grace for 100 days -- COMMISSIONER BETHEL: No, listen, I ain't asking for no 14 grace. I just gave you a date.
I just had to say that. COMMISSIONER BETHEL: I'm just trying to compare seven years to 127 --
There we go. As I note, you're not head of Prisons. You're the head of the Police. You're a piece of the puzzle here. But I am trying to communicate that I take very seriously the monitor's imperative that the City should initiate, and I quote "a coordinated effort among local justice partners to pursue all opportunities for population reduction." So the MDO is not here anymore I don't think. But are the MDO and the PPD part of a coordinated effort to reduce the prison population? COMMISSIONER BETHEL: We have been a party to the MacArthur Project, which led to the police- aided dispatch. I think that's been a core element that we played, that role that we played in that reduction. I don't know what the prison numbers were prior. But from what you just said, 4,000 are a lot lower than I recall. And so, I would have the -- the Prisons would have to tell you. But I believe, Councilman, that number has dropped significantly since my time when I left in 2013 and returning as a result of those efforts that were put forth.
And even still the conditions in the prisons are what they are today, which is a glaring concern for me. I want to make sure that we're all aware of the stakes here. The federal monitor has made it clear that the City's efforts to reach compliance do not reflect the urgency and enormity, that's a quote, of its problem and the life- threatening conditions that it breeds, right, in Philadelphia prisons. In fact, the monitor notes that Philly has pursued a course of half measures steeped in bureau -- this is a quote "Pursued a course of half measures steeped in bureaucratic and political rigidity with devastating consequences for incarcerated people and PDP staff." Frankly, the fact that the Kensington Community Revival Plan doesn't seem to contend with the state of Philadelphia prisons itself is a bit damning in and of itself. The words jail and prison as we understand it don't even appear in the 100-day report that introduced that plan publicly. Meanwhile we're pushing forward with actions that will start maybe in a few weeks that will force a choice between underdeveloped treatment conditions or incarceration in dangerous constitution-violating facilities. That's a concern. And I know you're not the head of the Prisons. But just in conclusion, can you just speak to that particular framework I just set up, that this is what they're going to be faced with? Any comments on that? COMMISSIONER BETHEL: I have learned in my time to understand the elements that you've outlined. I mean, my work around juvenile justice would focus on trying to keep young, particularly boys of color, out of the system because we were putting so many in. So I understand the dynamics you have, but I also understand that those things that you describe should not trump or overwhelm a community that has suffered for the last seven years with the activity they've had to endure. And so, I don't -- and so, part of my work is to go in there and to change that dynamic for them. I don't go down there with -- my spear is not led with arrest, handcuffs. It is the same model that KP has been working, the Kensington team has been down there for a while working in partnership to be able to make a difference. But I also would say that sometimes the outcome is not perfect and we understand that. But I don't -- listen, the system has to change, right. But today I run the police department. What we do is lock people up. That's part of the work that we do. Enforcement is the -- I am the other part of prevention, intervention and enforcement. Now, we bleed into and we work in prevention space. We work in intervention space. But at the end of the day, my job is to arrest people as well. We see thousands and thousands of offenses every day across the City and we do not arrest. So we are probably the biggest diverters you can ever imagine, right. We see thousands of motor vehicle violations that we do not take action on.
Yes, sir. COMMISSIONER BETHEL: And so, there's a small portion of individuals that unfortunately will do things that we're going to arrest and we're going to take that action. And then the system has to -- whatever adjustments they have been making, let's be honest here, we've been locking up a lot of folks and they've been going out the back door. And so, I mean at the end of the day the system has been doing a lot of things that are outside my purview, but we're going to continue to lean forward in our work because that's what we do.
So in conclu -- and thank you, Commissioner, and thank you gentlemen for being here and answering some of these questions. I just want to say I'm a member at-large. And so, I know that you all are representing different departments and offices and things like that within the Administration. And so, different pieces of the puzzle to addressing the larger Kensington question that everybody is concerned about and everybody wants to have "something done about." As an At-large rep, it appears to me that it's important to make sure that while there's a lot of those who are suffering from the disease of addiction versus business owners or those who are suffering from opioid versus residential family members or whether it's police and prisons, whatever the pieces are, that we are not just saying, well, it's so complicated and we're still working on we're building the plan as we're going, that it becomes acceptable just to say, well, we're going to make some mistakes, but the mistakes that we're talking about are people's lives. So it's important for me to be intentional and clear about asking the actual questions that can result in the loss of life, not just a bad press story, not just a bad day in the building. But people will die, and I use that word not flippantly, but to drive the point home. So as other folks, my colleagues, have already communicated a number of times today, nothing really that we're doing here is to be agitational for the sake of agitation, but it is to ask questions to get clear on details for a very vague plan that requires a lot of pieces that have not been actively communicated with this body with on a number of days so we can save people's lives. And so, that is the thrust of that. I thank you for your work and answering my questions and bearing with me today. COMMISSIONER BETHEL: No, listen, I appreciate you. I mean, that is part of the work. We have to have a balanced conversation in all of this. I respect everything you had to say, Councilman. We take that to heart, I mean, as part of we going through our process. I respect everything you just said. It does not bother me at all because that's the conversation we have to have, a complete conversation about all of it. If we didn't, we're not doing our job.
Thank you, Commissioner. Thank you, Council President.
So we're all doing the good Lord's work or good work of helping the people move the City of Philadelphia forward. Here's what I would like to say: Just as we move forward, you and your team, I know you're the Chief law enforcement official in the City of Philadelphia. And so, a lot of this weight is on your shoulders but we're taking a comprehensive approach, just the lines of communication. That's all. However you put that together, whatever that looks like, I know you are working with the Kensington Caucus, but there's other members of Council who do not even represent Kensington but just is still interested in what takes place in Kensington. I have a mini Kensington at Broad and Snyder in my District, deep South Philadelphia that we're addressing. And we're making sure that outside that pharmacy down there where you used to get on the bus to go to Atlantic City, that we clean up that encampment area. And so, I think the body as a whole is just interested. And most importantly, it's about just communication so we're all on the same page. And then when we have to go back out into the communities, because I know the Administration has a job to do, but also as District and At-large members, we're out there, we're getting the phone calls, we're getting the people coming to our offices. And so, whatever we can do just to increase that line of communication with members so we can all be on the same page, I think that would be great. And I've worked with you. I've been in the trenches with you way before I was an elected official. I know where your heart is. I mean, if you was just lock them up, let's just get them off the street in South Philadelphia, we'd approach things totally different. You're a person who actually adopted several young men in the neighborhood, right, so they wouldn't be shooting between Tasker and Wilson Park. You didn't have to do that because you have your own family, so I definitely recognize and I believe that your heart is in the right place, right, but this is a delicate issue for all of us. And so, it's going to take all of us working together to get this right. And so, I think what you hear from my team members is just we're big on details but most importantly, lines of communication so we're all on the same moving forward. So beyond the Kensington Caucus, maybe figure out how other people -- because to be quite frank even though we have the Kensington Caucus, there are other people just as passionate and interested about this issue. They're just not a part of the Kensington Caucus, but they still as a body want to be supportive. And so, whatever we can do just to increase those lines of communications. I just had one question. Did Adam Geer leave? I think he might have left out. COMMISSIONER BETHEL: I think he did.
Okay. Just have some questions for the Administration. I'll follow up with them regarding re-entry and what's the re-entry plan and so forth. But to you and your team, thank you for taking time out of your schedule coming back doing the callback. And you're my guy, so that's always going to be what it is and what it is. So I wish you good luck and Godspeed in terms of how you address this issue and most importantly, with some protection and wisdom in terms of the team that you got around as we do this right where we don't have any big hiccups and we're on national television because of how things are rolled out and done. But I know with your leadership, we'll be moving in the right direction. Just wanted to state that for the record. COMMISSIONER BETHEL: Thank you, sir.
Thank you for having me. Are there any questions or comments from members of the Committee for this witness? (No response.)
Hearing none, is anyone else here to present? (No response.)
Hearing none, there will be no 6 other witnesses here to testify and no further questions or comments from members of the Committee, the public hearing on the bills and resolutions before the Committee today will stand in recess until the call of the Chair. This concludes the business of the Committee of the Whole. Thank you all very much for your attendance. (Committee of the Whole concluded at 3:54 p.m.) C E R T I F I C A T I O N I, hereby certify that the proceedings and evidence noted are contained fully and accurately in the stenographic notes taken by me in the foregoing matter, and that this is a correct transcript of the same. __________________________________ TANEHA CARROLL