So with that being said, under the Criminal Justice Coordinating Committee, because it has something to do with prisons, it has something to do with the police, it has something to do with the judges, it has something to do with probation and parole, it has a lot to do with the community in which these crimes are perpetrated and the 197 4/20/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - FY '10 BUDGET victims are. Is there way that we can take a formula and say that at a $100 a day, can we reduce this 40 percent to 50 percent in ways of our -- or impact on our budget and provide a greater quality of true justice, restorative justice, to some people in the communities? DEP.
Well, you know, Councilman and you know my feeling of what I saw, what I went to implement, and the transition to get there. The answer to your question is: Ultimately, yes. The question is: How do we get from where we are today in declining areas and how do we end up going to get to where we want to be tomorrow?
And that's what we are working out right now. One of the costs that, as you saw when you looked at that building in Red Hook, is the fact that they had all those supportive services. 198 4/20/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - FY '10 BUDGET (Timer bell rings.)
Much like we have here in community court, where the probation, where behavioral health, where psychiatric services, where drug services, the entire gambit of what an individual runs into a problem, the child abuse -- I'm sorry, the child support network that --
Housing court. It was all in one building in one place for an entire community. And that's the model that I would like to see us go to. I am seeing and hearing that that's where I think different of our partners may want to go with us, because we can't do this as an administration on our own; the First Judicial District has to be along with us, the District Attorney 199 4/20/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - FY '10 BUDGET has to be along with us. And I think that we're hearing good things on all of those levels. However --
-- agree that they would have some rendition of community court. That is encouraging to me. DEP.
Right. So I think that the real issue is, as we are now trying to fashion how do we get from here to there is, how do we bridge that gap. And that's what we're going to have to deal with. And we're going to struggle with that, quite frankly, but we're going to get there.
Okay. I will 200 4/20/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - FY '10 BUDGET hold that for my next round, Madam President.
Thank you. The Chair recognizes Councilman Rizzo.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Good afternoon to the panel. Commissioner, the Prisons Budget was not asked to take any reductions; is that right? COMM. GIORLA: Yes, yes, Councilman.
If you had to compile a list -- if tomorrow you were asked to reduce it by 10, 20, 30 percent, did you ever create a list in the event that you were ever asked that question? COMM. GIORLA: Yes, we did.
And I know you're a good manager, but when I hear the Administration say that certain departments are kind of off-limits, are 201 4/20/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - FY '10 BUDGET they saying that there isn't management audits or performance audits or a way to spend that terrific amount of money, just that one number, on medical care, $65 million. Is there a better way? Or are we just assuming -- and, again, when I hear the word that the Prisons is not asked for budget cuts, are you in a position to reduce your budget by better -- and, again, don't misunderstand me when I say "better management." I'm not talking about you; I'm talking about the entire prison operation being looked at carefully to make sure that we're buying smart, that we're operating smart, that we're purchasing commodities smart. Is everything -- and, again, that's a very general word. Could more be done, even though you're not asking to take a reduction, to spend what you have a lot -- I was almost going to say something, but I didn't mean that. More efficiently? COMM. GIORLA: Councilman, every 202 4/20/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - FY '10 BUDGET aspect of our operation, every manager that works with me at the Prisons, we've asked them to take a critical look at their expenses, regardless of what they are and how they're administered. There are some areas -- and we did have the discussion about the 10, 20, and 30 percent cuts. We established our priorities. Our first one, of course, is custody because, you know, until the courts say so, we can't let anybody go. Competing for second and third were food service, medical and mental health services, which we, you know, try to avoid -- you know, try to avoid unnecessary costs. Third after that was facility maintenance, which is also a priority and something which was documented in the PICA report of 2008, that our facilities are deteriorating just as well as the police districts and some of the other City infrastructure. 203 4/20/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - FY '10 BUDGET And finally was inmate paramounts and training, educational programs and training. During past budget cuts, we've done away with our library services, we've done away with our recreation services for the inmates. Those last few services are virtually what we provide; they're a small fraction of our budget. We've tried whatever initiatives we can. For instance, we've installed new fencing at the Detention Center, which enabled us to close towers and redeploy those personnel. We've made structural changes on our dormitories at the Detention also, which enabled us to reduce the security on the housing units by an officer each. Every bit of planning, every bit of -- every new item that we consider for implementation or for -- you know, we take under consideration, we evaluate the cost as part of it. And all of the managers are -- 204 4/20/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - FY '10 BUDGET we try to instill that in 'em so that's not their only thought but a primary thought.
Commissioner, again, I don't want to use the word "easy," but some of the things you described like shutting down recreation and the library and some other things that you mentioned, you know, that's taking the axe and just knocking some things out. But I'm talking about the business, the operation of the entire prison system. When's the last time -- and maybe Mr. Gillison wants to jump in -- that really there was a real hard look at the way we do business there, an independent audit? The Controller's audit, I'm sure, is not necessarily the entire answer to the question. But what do we do to look at that significant amount of money that's being spent to make sure that there aren't some new ideas? You know, sometimes you get set in a way and you do things in a 205 4/20/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - FY '10 BUDGET particular way for 15, years, but maybe there's a better way. Mr. Gillison, what do we -- DEP.
What do we do 8 to take a really good look at that entire 9 operation and just make sure that what we 10 are doing is the best way to do it? 11 (Timer bell rings.) 12 DEP.
I can tell 13 you that one of the things that we tried 14 to do is just what you suggested: Taking 15 a look at it and seeing whether or not we 16 can do things in a different way, not just 17 in a cost way, looking at costs first, but 18 just in a completely different way. 19 The whole idea of community 20 corrections is really borne -- you know, thinking outside the box gets you to that point. The whole idea of looking at the medical innovations that we have sought, Dr. Herdman was actually able to negotiate, I thought, one of the best 206 4/20/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - FY '10 BUDGET medical contracts in recent history, when you look at the small increase that we were able to get, given the rate of increase that is around in everything else. We were able to do that because we had people in the inside looking forward and saying there's another way to look at this, given what we have. I'll defer, obviously, to his expertise in how he did that, but that's something that I think that we have been able to do. And where we're going next is, what is the real look of corrections? That's the big question that we have to answer, and I think that that's where we're going next. But Dr. Herdman can --
Thank you, Deputy Mayor. CHIEF HERDMAN: Just as an example, the annual cost increase from Fiscal Year '04, Councilman, was 15.7 percent, annual cost increase. This year, 207 4/20/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - FY '10 BUDGET it was 2.1 percent. There are a whole series of interventions that occurred in the past three years to achieve that. The average cost of -- escalation costs around the country of 7.6 percent. So we're well below. So, for example, we're enforcing formula compliance in drug use, and that has produced a continual decline in the cost of our medications, even though everyone's getting the medications they're supposed to get. There's a whole series of interventions along that line. Our contract increase this year with the major vendors was 1.5 percent, and that compared nationally to between 10 and percent. So... 20
Good work. Well, we all know that that's a very challenging profession up there. And we admire your work. And, again, those new innovations and changes, and sometimes 208 4/20/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - FY '10 BUDGET those things could really result in significant cost-savings. And in my next go-around, I'll ask another question. CHIEF HERDMAN: Thank you.
Thank you. The Chair recognizes Councilwoman Krajewski.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Good afternoon, gentlemen. PANEL MEMBERS: Good afternoon.
Mr. Gillison, we had a meeting back sometime in January in my office -- DEP.
-- where you had discussed the possibility of reopening Holmesburg Prison. I believe your plan was to single-house 600 inmates in three temporary pods. And I also gave you a whole list of reasons why I would oppose it. 209 4/20/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - FY '10 BUDGET DEP.
I think it was obvious to me then that the Administration hasn't done any research on this, because I don't believe that you are aware that there was a charter school 500 feet away. Has anything since our last meeting changed your mind, or can you give me a little -- DEP.
I'll be glad to. The answer is: No, nothing else has changed my mind. What has gone forward, which is what I said to you then, is that before we did anything, I would make sure that I would sit down and I would give you exactly what our plan would be. We have always -- one thing about Holmesburg, which I'm sure you know, we've never really closed it. There's always been people on Holmesburg's 210 4/20/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - FY '10 BUDGET property. Now, it fluctuates with the numbers of people that we have as an overage from State Road over to Holmesburg itself, but Holmesburg itself does have people in it.
Well, Holmesburg was supposed to be closed on the condition that we built Curran Fromhold. DEP.
I understand, but the issues that I can tell you is that Holmesburg has never been, quote/unquote, closed. We have had people there, and still, people are there today. We don't have it at the same level. Curran Fromhold is a 2,000-bed facility. Holmesburg was -- is -- only has (addressing Commissioner Giorla) how many now? COMM. GIORLA: There are 100 males and there is a --
I can't hear you. 211 4/20/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - FY '10 BUDGET COMM. GIORLA: There are 100 males and approximately 115 females housed on that reservation.
A hundred? COMM. GIORLA: There's 100 males and 115 females. DEP.
So the idea that it was closed, obviously that's -- it is a -- it is, in fact, correct as to certain portions of the facility but not -- what we were asking, what I was basically informing you was, in looking and trying to be as efficient as possible and wrangling out as much efficiencies as we could, Holmesburg has the ability to put the temporary facilities on the inside of the walls that will allow us to, as the population goes up and goes down, provide a level of service that we know we can actually maintain and maintain it efficiently; we just can't use the buildings that are on the inside of there now. 212 4/20/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - FY '10 BUDGET I would like nothing better, as I told you, to knock down all of that stuff on the inside. The walls are obviously there; they're not going anywhere. And we would be able to put up those temporary facilities for about 600, and we would be able to probably not be able to have to worry about being sued in federal court for triple-celling. Now, you indicated to me that that would be something that you would want me to come back to you -- you gave me a list of things, and I'm looking at everything that you gave me, Councilwoman. And that's one of the things that we are making sure that, before we move forward, I will definitely sit down and talk to you. As far as the charter school issue, I'm aware of the charter school issue; I'm even aware of the personal relationship that you have to the charter school. I don't believe that this would in any way, shape, or form impact that 213 4/20/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - FY '10 BUDGET particular operation. We're talking about trying to take a dilapidated situation, make it into a safe place for all of us, and have the City use its assets to its best efficiency. And, obviously, I'll be working with you. I told you I'll come back. We'll sit down, we'll talk, and you'll see everything. I'll even go up and do whatever I can to make sure we need to do it. But we have to make sure that we provide a place of safety for people that are being placed in our --
And I believe I also told you, Mr. Gillison, that the neighborhood and the residents would certainly not support that. DEP.
I 214 4/20/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - FY '10 BUDGET understand, but I don't -- I don't -- sometimes you don't have to fight if you end up --
Well, not when you come into the office like that and say, "No, we're going to open up Holmesburg." DEP.
I said that we were -- I was there to discuss it. I didn't say this was a fait accomplis. What I said was, I need to discuss this with you now, because my way of operating, and this administration's way of operating, is not to try and bulldoze just everything through. I wanted to have your input. I go to every Councilperson --
-- and I sit down and I talk. But I want you to know what we 215 4/20/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - FY '10 BUDGET need to do and to be able to use the assets that are given to us. That's what I try to do --
Well, I also want you to know what I have to do. DEP.
Thank you. The Chair recognizes Councilwoman Miller.
Thank you. Thank you, Madam Chair. Good afternoon. I have a couple questions. How you guys doing. DEP.
Okay. In your testimony on , second paragraph -- well, first I want to 216 4/20/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - FY '10 BUDGET congratulate you on your minority participation numbers; they're great. I think they're just about the best that's been in here. COMM. GIORLA: Thank you.
But on , Paragraph 2, you said that Philadelphia's jails have a higher per-citizen incarceration rate than most major cities. Is there a reason for that? Is that a good thing? Is that a -- well, what's going on there? COMM. GIORLA: Well, it -- it's certainly not a good thing, Councilwoman. Philadelphia averages about 159 citizens per inmate. Other major cities -- New York, Chicago, Los Angeles -- their ratio is much higher; it's in the neighborhood of 3 to 400, or sometimes higher than that, citizens per inmate. We think that there's a number of competing factors as far as why that ratio exits. Not only as the other 217 4/20/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - FY '10 BUDGET Councilpersons mentioned, the rate of unemployment, high school dropouts, the poverty within the City. But we're also looking at length of stay. The amount, as I quoted earlier, 90 days that someone -- the average person spends in custody --
Mm-hmm. COMM. GIORLA: -- there are large numbers who make bail and are released within a couple weeks. There are some that stay far beyond that. Some of that is, we believe, is tied to processes within the interrelation of the criminal justice system primarily between Courts, the Clerks, the District Attorney's Office, the Defenders, and the Prisons. We're looking at ways to increase our use of technology. For instance, asking the clerks, all of us, to print data and send it to the Prisons electronically rather than have a courier pick it up and transport it to the Prisons 218 4/20/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - FY '10 BUDGET every day. Small things like that. The use of e-mail, scanning- forward-document technology; that would enable to us get away from paper documents.
Okay. COMM. GIORLA: All of those things, we hope, will decrease that length of stay.
Okay. And also, I know, Councilman Goode asked you about high school dropouts. I would also like to know the numbers on -- the data on those coming out of the foster-care system, okay? How many inmates -- you don't have to give it to me now, but how many inmates are former foster children? COMM. GIORLA: I don't have that data here, but I can supply you with that.
Okay. And I'd also like information on your daily sentence. I know that you were here before and you said -- I believe you said 219 4/20/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - FY '10 BUDGET that 60 percent of those incarcerated at Philadelphia Prisons are awaiting trial. COMM. GIORLA: That number is closer to 70 -- it fluctuates between 71 and 79 percent.
Okay. So what is the balance? I mean, how many there are on probation or parole violations? Just what is the other -- what makes up the other, say, 30 percent? COMM. GIORLA: The sentenced inmates?
Sentenced. COMM. GIORLA: They're sentenced to county sentences and a few to state sentences.
So then, anybody violating probation or parole are part of the 70 percent. COMM. GIORLA: They're a part of that detention population until their 220 4/20/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - FY '10 BUDGET violation hearings are held and some type of a decision is made on their status.
Okay. And the other thing, I've heard that Prisons time and time again, every year, talk about the fact that they're waiting to explore -- in your third paragraph, you talk about that you're working with the District Attorney's Office, the First Judicial District, the Defender Association to explore ways to sensibly and safely reduce our prison population. We've been exploring that for a while. And when are you going to come up with some recommendations? COMM. GIORLA: Well, we've had several, and some are contained here. As stated, the change of confinement for state inmates who are housed in the County, new legislation that passed in November gave us the ability to send them to State custody, 'cause that was an unreimbursed cost.
Right, 221 4/20/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - FY '10 BUDGET right. COMM. GIORLA: We've already transferred 187 all of an agreed-upon 250. We're talking to the State about taking the additional number. That does not remove all of those inmates in that status, that state sentence status. In (indiscernible) population, there are approximately 150 others. Some of those are in work release and working. We hope not to -- (Timer bell rings.) COMM. GIORLA: We hope not to transfer them since they're being successful, working in the community. Some others who have disciplinary infractions or have not made a good adjustments to our custody we hope to transfer the remainder up the State custody. The court system is -- has just begun an initiative to have a mental health court, where those who are considered seriously mentally ill but 222 4/20/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - FY '10 BUDGET functioning at a high enough level, where they can be successful on their probation or parole supervision, are being released under intensive supervision. The numbers are small right now. But, as Councilman Jones asked earlier, that low-security population with low bail, most are non-violent. A large percentage of that population are mentally ill. They return frequently. So, you know, when you consider releases, they have to be released under some type of supervision. They need some assistance in the community. We think that as many as 500 people within our population could be placed under that type of supervision annually. And that would help reduce the population. And, finally, the video initiative may reduce court continuances, which will reduce the population even further.
Okay, 223 4/20/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - FY '10 BUDGET great. All right. Thank you, Madam President. I have questions, but I'll ask again.
Thank you, Madam President. This conversation is flowing quite nicely because some questions are leading into others. I had a conversation with the Mayor about a week ago. We were talking about budget matters, and I won't go into the whole discussion other than we talked about several things like the budget worksheets that were a part of the community forums. We talked about even the Pennsylvania Economy League has a budget calculator up, where people can do their own budget. And we those are just exercises but how they may have been useful tools for the citizens. I told him that I 224 4/20/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - FY '10 BUDGET actually did the budget worksheet, where you try to get a hundred points. And I got to 202 points before I reduced it back to 100. He asked me how I did it. I told him I closed the Prisons, to which he had some shock. And I didn't mind closing the Prisons in a budget exercise that was on paper, and, clearly, when it was adjusted, as an alternative. The Commissioner just used a figure of 500 to say what he believes we can reduce the population by. Isn't that number low? COMM. GIORLA: That number was in regard to mentally ill inmates who require community supervision.
I just want to go a bit further, then. Not looking at closing down a prison, but looking at a different way of actually reducing the prison population based upon those people who are non-violent, based upon those people who 225 4/20/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - FY '10 BUDGET should be able to go into diversion programs, we looked at the issue of dropout rates, but beyond dropout rates, there are any number of issues. There are education issues, there's substance abuse issues, there's mental health issues. And we are using a prison system at possibly $100 a day to house people in a very costly manner, when they should be diverted to other community-type programs. And so, what are we seriously and aggressively doing to look at how we reduce recidivism based upon targeting non-violent offender who have issues that we should be dealing with, particularly when we're already committing $100 a day? DEP.
Thank you, Councilman Goode. I think that that's an excellent question, and I think that's where the -- I think that we are finally getting to the point where people are going to have to answer that question as a society. We have not dealt with the 226 4/20/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - FY '10 BUDGET secure bed versus the -- the need for secure beds for violent offenders versus those that are nonviolent, and we just fill up our prisons with those persons. Right now, the onus is on the police to follow the law, which means if somebody does something wrong, you lock 'em up. There is then a provision for the District Attorney to decide who's going to get charged; and once they're charged, a bail is set The Prisons are just the recipient of the body they once get there and can't make bail. And, as the Commissioner said, close to 75 percent on average are the detainees We have to actually, as a society, answer the question. There's a lot of laws out there that everybody wants the police to enforce, but does everybody have to go to jail? I am heartened by the fact that I have heard people finally suggesting that everybody doesn't have to go to jail. 227 4/20/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - FY '10 BUDGET In the exercise that you completed, people were saying that they -- and I attended those budget programs around the City. They said they would be willing to close the jail if you had a community program to but 'em in and give them the drug treatment that you needed, give them the psychiatric treatment that you needed, and give them something in the community, not having them being locked up in jail So the community, for the first time, is on record, as far as I'm concerned, as supporting that. So now we have a situation of, we have this large population. I would love to see the population come down by 3,000 up on State Road. And that's my goal: 3,000 folks coming out. But, you know, for 3,000 people to have programs that work, we have a lot of building to do in the community. And that's where I need the assistance of Council, to help me build those communities in the community, build those 228 4/20/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - FY '10 BUDGET community programs. 'Cause if you're not going to have 'em in secure custody, at $100 a day, I know I can build a lot of 'em for about $20 a day. I can put 'em on electronic monitoring for $12 a day But I need your support in order to make sure that that can happen.
Well, that's one of the things that -- you know, alternative sentencing or alternatives to incarceration until people are waiting for trial is what I was looking for. Also, when I asked about why Philadelphia has such a large inmate population versus some other major cities that have the same types of crime and all 229 4/20/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - FY '10 BUDGET those kind of activities going on. I don't know that you need community support for -- for home -- for the bracelet. I forgot what it's called. DEP.
Right. I don't know that you need 'em for that. But certainly, I know you would need to talk to the community about the residential facilities. Now, 17th and Lehigh -- and Cambria is in my district. And the way that that went in the beginning was all wrong because nobody told anybody anything, including me. DEP.
So there's a method. People like to know before the fact rather than after the fact 'cause they feel like you're pushing it in there, putting it on them. But we do need to talk. And I would be interested in knowing exactly 230 4/20/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - FY '10 BUDGET where the people agree that they -- that they agree to a prison being closed down and doing something out in the neighborhood. I'd really like to hear that. DEP.
Oh, yeah. It was a part of the report that we received from the persons that help put it through WHYY. Part of the recommendations that we received was from them that said that they supported the idea of closing a prison down. But the caveat was: Have the programs for them to go to, that they would be able to feel support.
Okay, thank you. 231 4/20/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - FY '10 BUDGET
Right, okay. Now, I'm going to turn this off, but can I be at my same place I was before?
Yes, absolutely. The Chair recognizes Councilman O'Neill.
Okay. Councilwoman Miller, I'll be brief so you'll get there faster. The 400 or so prisoners that had state sentences that were housed at our facilities this time last year, you've now gotten them down to about 200, right? COMM. GIORLA: Yes, sir.
And how did you bring that about? COMM. GIORLA: Through a cooperative agreement with the State that was negotiated with the District Attorney's Office, the courts, and the 232 4/20/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - FY '10 BUDGET Prisons.
Okay. Were they there and are they there? 'cause you still have 200. Are they there because a judge ordered them to be there even though they had a -- clearly had a state sentence? COMM. GIORLA: They're there because the State agreed to house them.
I'm not sure that -- COMM. GIORLA: The people that are still in the prisons?
The state-sentenced prisoners, the ones that have gotten out in the last year, how did they get there originally? Because normally, if you get a state sentence, you go to a state prison. COMM. GIORLA: Well --
So was it the judge in Philadelphia who said, I'm going to give you a state sentence, but I'll cut you a break: You can serve it at 233 4/20/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - FY '10 BUDGET Holmesburg or one of our facilities? COMM. GIORLA: Yes. Up until November the 24th, it was legal for judges to sentence inmates to county custody on sentences of up to one day less than five years.
Okay. COMM. GIORLA: They no longer have that authority.
Okay. COMM. GIORLA: So now, they'll be transferred upstate.
Okay, but you're stuck, I'll say, with about 200? COMM. GIORLA: Yes.
Until they finish their sentences? COMM. GIORLA: Yes.
Okay, thank you. Second thing: How many of your prisoners -- and you can give me a number or a percentage. Just a gut feeling based on your professional knowledge and 234 4/20/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - FY '10 BUDGET expertise and experience, how many -- we're maximum security, obviously, right? Everything we have on State Road is maximum security? COMM. GIORLA: No, that's incorrect. About less than one-third are maximum security.
Okay. COMM. GIORLA: The bulk are what -- we have a classification system that classifies inmates as community custody, which means they can be housed in a facility without a fence, with minimal supervision.
Okay. COMM. GIORLA: Minimum custody, which means they need a locked facility. Medium custody, which means that they're usually minor disciplinary problems. They're a little more difficult to manage. They need a more secure. And closed custody, which is the same as maximum custody --
Okay. 235 4/20/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - FY '10 BUDGET COMM. GIORLA: -- where they need full-time supervision under very restricted circumstances.
So if we only had the prisoners or detainees that needed maximum security in our facilities, how many would we have? COMM. GIORLA: About 4,000.
Okay. And it's my understanding that getting the other 5500 into minimum security or less-than-minimum-security facilities cost-wise I'm talking about, 'cause you were just talking about the cost, would run anywhere from the $12 or so for the -- COMM. GIORLA: The bracelets.
-- bracelet, up to about $70 for a minimum- security facility contracted out to somebody? COMM. GIORLA: Most likely, yes. 236 4/20/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - FY '10 BUDGET
Okay. If I had Councilman Green here, he'd already have the calculations on this one, but it seems to me that that would be somewhere between that differential, somewhere upwards of to $20 million per thousand 8 employees that you could move out and 9 only -- so if you have 5500, just round it 10 out to 5,000, you'd be talking about 11 somewhere -- just cost-savings, somewhere 12 between 7500 -- 75 million and 100 million 13 a year. 14 And it seems like those same 15 people that got together about those state prisoners could figure out how to get together on that one. It's not just real dollars; it's people being in a facility that is not the facility they have to be in. And I know there's other issues dealing with -- (indiscernible) the expert here, 'cause he's announcing seeing the world from both sides. So anyway, I want to leave that 237 4/20/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - FY '10 BUDGET because these are -- that to me is the most serious money out there. I mean, I have my own beliefs that if the State doesn't pay for this, we shouldn't be doing it for them. These aren't City jails; these are County prisons, and we do County things because we do them as an agent for the State to bring services to the local community so the State doesn't do them. These are not City responsibilities. County responsibilities are State responsibilities that have been delegated. DEP.
But the funding level -- everyone's talked about the Courts for so long. The Courts are nothing compared to the Prisons; I mean, you know, unless you add it up cumulatively since the Supreme Court gave that famous order that they never enforced. But, Mr. Gillison, two things, 238 4/20/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - FY '10 BUDGET 'cause I know that these are two areas that you know a lot more than I do and a lot more than just about everybody in the room or in the City, but the one area is, there is -- (Timer bell rings.)
Thank you, Madam President. Good afternoon. PANEL MEMBERS: Good afternoon.
Councilman Goode raised important questions about the assessment on the front end. I'm interested in knowing what happens at the discharge and the continuum of care, particularly for children and youth. When a prisoner is -- I've had instances, a couple in my office, where a prisoner is released and they have no ID. And then my office does what it needs to 239 4/20/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - FY '10 BUDGET do -- jumps lots of hoops and irons out the wrinkles to help this person get an ID card because without that, they can't do or start anywhere. So what happens at discharge with prisoners? COMM. GIORLA: When we determine that an inmate still in custody needs an ID, we have a service that they can apply while in custody and pay a fee, a $10 fee, to obtain an ID. If they're unable to do so, their social workers can connect them with the -- with the State to see how they can apply. When they do leave our custody, we provide them with a list of resources and a number of hotline numbers that will allow them to contract agencies for assistance. And also, we've gotten some of the agencies to accept our -- what we call an incarceration letter, which comes with a photo, verifies their dates in custody 240 4/20/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - FY '10 BUDGET so that they can have some of their benefits restored, like medical assistance.
So if we recognize and accept the fact that more than half of them do not have a high school diploma, and the average informed, so-called educated professional has to do what they need to do to navigate a system, why are we placing that responsibility on them to be able to have the initiative to follow the directions on a sheet of paper to require an ID? Why can that not happen before they depart from those doors? DEP.
Good afternoon, Councilwoman. It's an excellent idea. And the short answer is that the best way to do it is to have the prerelease center, which is what we've now started, that, as a sentenced prisoner, would be able to leave the prison. We will know when they're doing it, and we can get all of that done 241 4/20/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - FY '10 BUDGET so that as they are leaving, we will be able to give them a package that has those very things in it. The real question, though, is because 75 percent of the people who are leaving leave when their bail is paid -- and that can happen in the middle of the night, it can happen anytime. We don't know and there's not a process for them -- for the prison --
-- to actually close that gap. So a guy may end up getting to the prison, and he may not have had his identification when he got to the prison; it might still be in a property receipt located at the district.
So he doesn't have access to his identification. Therefore, there is a -- that's the disconnect if it was seized. A lot of 242 4/20/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - FY '10 BUDGET times, we don't know.
So that's why in the system, for at least the 30 years I was working in it, we worked out the deal that the prisons would identify, the lawyer would sign -- from the Public Defenders Office, I would sign, and then we would actually restore his information rather quickly, but that's because we had this disconnect between the time of arrest and the time of discharge, 'cause as soon as your bail is paid, you walk out.
Let me move on 'cause that bell is going to go quickly. According to the Pennsylvania Prison Society, women constitute the fastest-growing segment of America's prison population. How is our city addressing the unique needs of women 243 4/20/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - FY '10 BUDGET offenders? number one. And, number two, who maintains reports of sexual abuse of women by employers or the employees? COMM. GIORLA: The women we have housed both at -- well, we actually have three facilities: Riverside Correctional facility, which is our main intake center for women; we have the Cannery, which is the site adjacent to Holmesburg Prison. There are a number of programs that are offered to the female offenders, one of which is a prenatal and a postnatal monitoring program.
Mm-hmm. COMM. GIORLA: A monitoring program that's grant-funded.
Let's do it this way: Send a listing to President Verna, because I guess there are several that you can speak to that address the specific needs of women? COMM. GIORLA: Oh, absolutely.
Okay. 244 4/20/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - FY '10 BUDGET Speak to the continuum of care for children of parents who are offenders. COMM. GIORLA: The Prison Society chairs a group that's known as the Working Group for Incarcerated Women, which offers a number of services. (Timer bell rings.) COMM. GIORLA: The Maternity Care Coalition runs a pre- and post-natal care program, which monitors and helps offenders, even after release, up to one year following the time they give birth.
Okay. COMM. GIORLA: The Amachi Program that mentors the children of incarcerated people conducts a program at Riverside as well. And the Women Against Abuse.
Okay. COMM. GIORLA: Now, in order to answer your question about the sexual allegations, I'm assuming you mean while in custody?
Yes. 245 4/20/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - FY '10 BUDGET COMM. GIORLA: That may be subject to abuse by staff?
Indeed. COMM. GIORLA: We have an Office of Professional Compliance, formerly known as our Internal Affairs Division, which investigates those complaints.
Mm-hmm. COMM. GIORLA: In nearly all cases, unless they're so devoid of evidence that we could dismiss them, we involve the police and physical evidence is collected.
Okay. COMM. GIORLA: Interviews are taken. They're submitted to the District Attorney's Office, if necessary, for review. And, you know, a full investigation is conducted.
Okay. All right. Thank you for your testimony. COMM. GIORLA: You're welcome.
Thank you. 246 4/20/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - FY '10 BUDGET The Chair recognizes Councilman Clarke.
Thank you, Madam President. Good afternoon. PANEL MEMBERS: Good afternoon.
Just a couple of quick questions. I want to get some clarity. The individuals that we have at Liberty Management, say, 10th and Lehigh as an example -- and this is based on a conversation I had out on the street. We were out there with the Mayor and saw a group of guys who were being supervised by COs during a cleanup program, I think it was. They indicated that they would be able to leave the facility if they had a job -- is that -- other than that, they had essentially done everything that they were supposed to do, but if they had a job, they would be able to go home and do whatever. 247 4/20/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - FY '10 BUDGET COMM. GIORLA: The lack of employment doesn't prevent them from being released.
It does not? COMM. GIORLA: The 10th and Lehigh facility is a work release -- it's a contracted work-release facility. We're -- the number of inmates we have housed there fluctuates between 80 and 115 male inmates. And there's a female service located there as well known as Phoenix House, which houses between 10 and 25 work-release inmates. These are low-custody offenders who have been sentenced. They can go out in the community to work, and they report back to the facility at night. And it's a partial confinement.
So why couldn't they leave? I mean, they were just holding -- I was actually with the Mayor. COMM. GIORLA: They're -- 248 4/20/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - FY '10 BUDGET
And they were saying, well, you know, we're going -- COMM. GIORLA: They're still under a sentence. They haven't been released as yet; that's why they can't leave. When their sentence is up, when their parole, or they've completed all of the sentence stipulations to the satisfaction of a judge or the State Patrol Board, they do leave.
So it was not -- they were not being accurate? COMM. GIORLA: They can't leave at will unless they're authorized, but they can leave.
When their sentence is complete -- okay, I'm just basing this off of what we got on the street, and they gave me the impression that they had pretty much done everything that they were supposed to do, but they couldn't leave for a particular reason. 249 4/20/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - FY '10 BUDGET And my recollection was that they didn't have a job. And maybe it was they didn't have housing to go to. I mean, they went on and on. And the Mayor actually took -- one of staff members of the Mayor took the information, and we were going to look into it, and I'm trying to figure out why -- COMM. GIORLA: We don't -- no 11 one stays in custody --
You don't know? COMM. GIORLA: There -- maybe what they were referring to -- and, you know, if you have some further information, I might be able to --
Yeah. I just -- unfortunately, I was out there by myself. COMM. GIORLA: They are referred to the -- they are unable -- the inmates have to have a home plan.
Have to have a what? I'm sorry. 250 4/20/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - FY '10 BUDGET COMM. GIORLA: Have to have a home plan before they're paroled, where they have to have a stable residence that can be verified. They don't necessarily have to have employment. Sometimes they have to meet certain stipulations set by judges of the Parole Board, and that's to perhaps take part in drug treatment programming, perhaps some anger management or domestic abuse classes, victim awareness. If they don't comply with those stipulations, they wouldn't necessarily be granted parole. But when their time is up, that doesn't hold them. If they're time expires, it expires. They may not --
So is there something that could have accelerated their release? COMM. GIORLA: Well --
I wish I had all of the specifics. COMM. GIORLA: Well, what can 251 4/20/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - FY '10 BUDGET accelerate their release -- and, you know, we give 'em this information -- is full compliance with every stipulation of a judge, every condition that's set by the Parole Board, a lack of disciplinary infractions, involvement in facility activities, and, you know, general compliance with the stipulations of their sentence.
And how much do we pay to house those individuals? COMM. GIORLA: At 10th and Lehigh? 'Cause the cost varies, depending on the site.
$63 a person, okay. Sorry. I just didn't have the specifics. They were quite adamant about their ability to leave, and I don't -- I got to check with the Mayor to see who took that information down. 252 4/20/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - FY '10 BUDGET All right. Thanks, Madam President. That's all I have.
Thank you. The Chair recognizes Councilman Jones.
(Addressing Councilman Clarke.) Just so that you know you're not crazy, colleague, I've heard that same kind of complaint coming from the halfway houses. So I don't know if there's misinformation out there or whether or not there is some incentive by which halfway houses get to keep people longer than they should. And then those people -- I got complaints about those people having to contribute a certain portion of their pay when they do work. And then how that plan is to be prorated and given out. Like, for example, to family members who may need help with child care and other things. So there have been a number of 253 4/20/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - FY '10 BUDGET those kinds of complaints. You must be at the same barbershops I'm at. So a couple of things. Is it true that 500 people are released from state institutions a week back in Philadelphia County? COMM. GIORLA: I'm not sure about those numbers.
That's the number of reentry -- Mr. Gillison, would you help him out? DEP.
And if we looked at that and we started, let's say -- what is the recidivism rate for those 500 people? DEP.
Without supports? The studies show somewhere between 40 or 60 percent, with really in 254 4/20/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - FY '10 BUDGET the urban areas being higher towards the 50 percent.
So let's round it out to 50 percent. Of those people that come home on average, 500 per week are going to wind up back incarcerated. In some neighborhoods in the City of Philadelphia, we are living within communities that have less protections than a prison in their communities, because these people go back, they repeat the crime right in their neighborhoods, and they wind up going back up. So we are kind of at risk now if we start looking at whether or not we are safe as a public. The other thing is that under supervision, under supervision, people never go away; they kind of get a sense of what that community's expectation of them is. By making have to wear those funny-looking, orange jumpsuits, cleaning the ally, cleaning away some graffiti, and to kind of restore a lot of the things 255 4/20/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - FY '10 BUDGET that they took away from that community by committing a crime. And in the structure of it, they actually pay restitution to people. If they stole your car, then the $500 deductible is a part of the sentence and the re-institution of that funds is mandated by the sentence. And those are the kinds of things that I want us to start to look and be more pound-wise instead of penny- foolish by way of incarceration. The other question that I would have is, I notice on , you went up for your cleaning services from what was appropriated of about $53,000 a year to about 375; is there a reason for that? 375,000. COMM. GIORLA: That's primarily for cleaning supplies.
So what -- we are a lot cleaner prison this year versus last year? COMM. GIORLA: Well, due to the 256 4/20/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - FY '10 BUDGET fact that we have more people confined in less space, we have to step up our efforts in sanitation. Some of the supplies that we have to buy are less durable.
That's almost -- that's almost -- that's eight times as much cleaning. I mean, I'm just curious as to -- what did we go from low-cost detergent to -- I mean, help me to understand why that's so odd. DEP.
We'll get back to you. COMM. GIORLA: I'll supply you a breakdown of the materials we used and the cost.
Yeah, you've gotten better from last year. But you know I'll send you a letter to find out if you don't answer me. COMM. GIORLA: Yes, sir.
Okay. I also want to go back to the GPS tracking system. How many inmates are actually using the GPS tracking system or ankle 257 4/20/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - FY '10 BUDGET bracelets or a combination? How many inmates are actually on that program? COMM. GIORLA: At this time, we don't have any. We're initiating that as a phase of our work-release program. The courts and pre-trial service have a number of defendants on electronic monitoring. And I believe the juvenile services has inmates on GPS tracking.
What is your anticipation in the next fiscal year? How many inmates are you targeting to be on this program? COMM. GIORLA: Probably anywhere from 10 to 50.
Say that again? COMM. GIORLA: Anywhere from 10 to 50 as part of our work-release program.
That's it? COMM. GIORLA: Well, the technology isn't perfect. It's not -- it's not as conclusive as people would like you to think. There is a component 258 4/20/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - FY '10 BUDGET where you can monitor someone indoors within a specific area. The GPS component has some drawbacks. There are areas where people can travel where their movements cannot be tracked, or their whereabouts can be estimated but not exactly tracked. We want to be cautious about the offenders we place on this. And because of the fact that we just awarded the contract the other day, we'd like to start this up carefully. (Timer bell rings.)
So is this more or less a data testing phase as opposed to a full-fledged rollout? COMM. GIORLA: Yes.
You're welcome. The Chair recognizes Councilman Rizzo. 259 4/20/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - FY '10 BUDGET
Thank you, Madam Chair. Commissioner, I want to go back to technology, and we just touched upon some technology. But I was pleased to hear that one of your ideas that didn't involve technology, something about additional fencing that eliminated the need for the towers, which, you know, that's the kind of things we like hearing. But let me ask you about the use of technology in the system. Would you consider -- do you believe that we are now -- we have all of the technology that is out there that would help you reduce your cameras, et cetera, compared to other systems? COMM. GIORLA: No, Councilman. I don't think we're even close. We're using a computerized inmate management system, which enables us to keep inmate records. That's 15 years old as far as implementation, 20 years old as far as 260 4/20/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - FY '10 BUDGET development. It doesn't interface well with the courts or the police system. Each time we need to have it perform a new function, we have to seek out the proprietary programmers and those associated costs. It doesn't generate the reports. For example, for my testimony here today, I would like to be able to tell you that a certain category of offender, a repeat -- a repeated convicted person spends so many days in our custody, and I couldn't without a lengthy hand search of our records. There are also -- for our medical records for our department, we're still using paper medical records, and there's a cost associated with that. Each time we transfer an inmate from one facility to another -- and by that, I mean 50 yards -- we have to pull a medical file, a nurse has to review it, an officer has to take custody of it, they have to 261 4/20/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - FY '10 BUDGET move it across the street. The same process has to take place there.
So this goes back to my earlier observation. What about in the area of the video surveillance within the jail? Are we -- I think this is one question you're glad I've asked. So what about video? COMM. GIORLA: The increased use of video has enabled us to redeploy some people in our facilities. The costs -- in our two oldest facilities, the cost of retrofitting would be -- and I couldn't estimate at this point, the House of Corrections and the Detention Center. That might enable us to reduce personnel costs, but the cost of the retrofitting would be -- you know, the electrical service is old. Having to install conduit in those facilities would be difficult.
Yeah. See, that's what I want you to look at, because there's a whole new world in this 262 4/20/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - FY '10 BUDGET technology; it's all wireless now, Commissioner. And, you know, I'm sure that you have to adhere to certain standards. But this technology, over the last few years, has really changed. The wireless stuff is just unbelievable. My last question, before I turn it over to someone else: Recently in the Daily News, there was a story about cellphones making their way into jail. COMM. GIORLA: Yes, sir.
Is that a significant problem in our facilities? COMM. GIORLA: That's not only a significant problem in our facilities here, but nationwide.
Now, technology -- I'll give you a heads-up on something. You probably already know this, that there is technology out there that has the ability to block cellphone signals only. Those phones coming into your facility could be blocked. And, basically, they'd be a paper weight. 263 4/20/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - FY '10 BUDGET COMM. GIORLA: The technology that exists to jam cellphones at this moment is illegal. The FCC doesn't permit it. There is legislation pending both in the Congress and the House, the Congress and the Senate, to change those regulations. We did -- while we didn't participate, South Carolina conducted a demonstration of the equipment some months ago -- I believe back in January of this year. And we're actively supporting that legislation.
Commissioner, you know, I can understand the FCC being concerned in an environment that's public, but I bet if we had the Law Department write a letter to the FCC and said we want to use it in an area that, A, is prohibited from cellphone use, that they'd have to be real hardheads to be not cooperative with that one, so -- DEP.
Councilman, I -- 264 4/20/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - FY '10 BUDGET
These are the kinds of things that I talked about -- DEP.
Councilman, may I -- because I really just want to let you know how active that not only this commissioner has been, but also Curtis Douglas, who is the Integrity and Accountability Officer for Public Safety on my staff, we have been coalescing with Congress people all over the country in order to get a waiver from the FCC. (Timer bell rings.) DEP.
We have been on this for the past six months, and we are trying to get that. I can tell you that our Congressional delegation has been apprised, our United States senators have been apprised. We have been mobilizing. You will probably see in the next week or two a nightline matter, where Philadelphia is going to be on the cutting edge, trying to do something about this. And people are looking to us because we're 265 4/20/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - FY '10 BUDGET fighting the battle. Nobody else around the country is doing it yet; we are, and we've been doing it for the past six months. So, I agree. I wish it was as easy as just writing a letter. We wrote the letter. The Mayor singed the letter, I signed the letter; we had everybody sign the letter. And the FCC said no. 11 So now we're taking it to the next level. And we're not only publicizing it, but the Philadelphia Prison actually has the first dog that was trained to sniff out cellphones in the country because of the problems that we've had. So we are really aggressively fighting this, going after it. And I'm sure that I'll get your support when we need to really take it up to the next level.
And if I ever lose my cellphone, I'm going to borrow that dog. 266 4/20/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - FY '10 BUDGET (Laughter.) DEP.
Thank you, thank you, Madam President. I just have a couple questions. When the inmates come in, you know, and they receive intake are they actually is there a plan that's developed per inmate for example once you take the intake and you find out that they don't have a high school diploma or a GED, is it mandatory for them to take classes or is it voluntarily for them to take classes? COMM. GIORLA: That's dependent upon the inmate's custody status.
Okay. COMM. GIORLA: For the detentioners, which is 70-plus percentage of our population, it can be recommended, it can be suggested, and many of them do. 267 4/20/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - FY '10 BUDGET
Okay. COMM. GIORLA: Their length of stay varies, and some complete programs, some don't. We can't compel them to do anything other than just follow the rules and regulations. So a large number of them choose not to. The sentenced inmates, they have to abide by sentencing stipulations set forth by the judge. And they also have to work if we require them to do so. The level of participation from the sentenced inmates has increased. And probably this time last year, we had about 36 percent of our sentenced inmates involved in a work program, an educational program, or some type of training. As of last month, on March the 30th, we have closer to 70 percent of the sentenced inmates involved in work programs or some type of a vocational training.
Okay, all 268 4/20/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - FY '10 BUDGET right. I just wanted to know because, I mean, if you have the -- they're in the facility and you have the folks there to provide the training. It's really a good time to kind of grab 'em and hopefully get 'em started, particularly if the average stay is only 91 days. But at least if they can get started, that would be good. I have one other question. Do you have any other recommendations or suggestions for any other specialty courts? Certainly, we all know about drug court, gun court, and now this mental health court, community court. Are there any other recommendations or suggestions that you, and maybe this team of people up here with the D.A., the First District Defenders, et cetera? COMM. GIORLA: Well, the mental health court initiative that I referred to earlier pertains to sentenced individuals. I think we need to have a mental health diversion so that those who are seriously mentally ill and have committed 269 4/20/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - FY '10 BUDGET some type of criminal act, the illness may have caused the act, they don't need to be taken to jail in the first place; they need to go directly into treatment. So there needs to be some type of diversion initiated so that that won't happen.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Mr. Gillison, as you know, the Commonwealth is constructing a number of new prison facilities in the next couple of years or four. Does it make any sense for us, or is there any value in exploring an opportunity to maybe participate with them in capital dollars to kind of segregate some bed space, some cells specifically for Philadelphia County? 270 4/20/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - FY '10 BUDGET I mean, I know the Commonwealth is in a desperate financial situation also, and they may be looking for a partner to put some dollars in that would guarantee us a certain number of beds or a certain number of cell space. What would be that benefit to us, if any, relative to prisoner placement and cost? DEP.
Well, one of the -- thank you very much, Councilman. One of the issues that I think that we have to really get beyond is the age of the House of Correction. It's almost at the age now where it needs to be totally replaced, and that's a 2,000-bed facility. So if we are looking at to replace a facility, then that's something that we would have to do. We actually had a discussion. The Mayor wanted us to discuss with the surrounding counties the ability of perhaps doing a regional facility, and we have begun discussions on that. 271 4/20/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - FY '10 BUDGET I can tell you one of the problems, though, that we have to always remember: If you build it, they will fill it. And that's a fear. I mean, I think that we have to find a different way. I would rather keep the pressure on all of us to really look at who really needs to be in jail rather than partnering initially and quickly to build a facility, because I know they'll fill it.
I don't disagree with you, and I think we need to do all of the other things that's been talked about by Councilman Goode and Jones and others relative to keeping people from getting there in the first place and then making sure they don't go back once they're out. DEP.
But if the Commonwealth is engaged in this, in this effort, is there any economy of scale or any savings that we could experience as a result of participating in a project as 272 4/20/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - FY '10 BUDGET opposed to building one ourselves? DEP.
The answer is yes. And I think that our talks that we began -- I think these talks originated about a year-and-a-half to two years ago, from what I understood. We have renewed those talks with the surrounding counties. We can expand and sit down with the Commonwealth as well. I think that they have already chosen sites where they want to build their four prisons. I don't know their capital needs at this time or whether or not the economy has hit their capital needs program as well, but I do know that if they are planning on building something, we could do a condominium approach to it --
-- where we could guarantee a certain level while we rotate out some of the prison space we have here and then replace it, and we 273 4/20/09 - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - FY '10 BUDGET might be in a better position.