Member Jones, one second. Point of information. Majority Leader Richardson.
I humbly apologize for the interruption, Councilmember Jones. I just wanted to hear the answer to the question that you asked regarding the full staff compliment. Because I missed that, but I think if you could just tell us the full staff compliment, as the sheriff stated, how many you're actually budgeted for, and then what the vacancy is.
We were -- we were actually budgeted -- SHERIFF BILAL: Tell them who you are.
My name is Craig Martin. I am the budget officer for the sheriff's office. We were actually budgeted 400. We need 119 more, but you have to understand, we are budgeted for numbers, and we never get what we're budgeted for. And what happens is that the city has a five-year plan, and they try to force us into the five-year plan. So, as a consequence, we never get the money. We aren't playing -- we're playing catch up. We're about 186 people short. We're trying to push this thing from a budgeted 400 to 519, and it becomes very difficult, because we can't get any budget that comes close to the budget for the prior budget period. So what we're doing is, we're playing catch up. Each budgetary period, we never get the amount that we want, and then we have to come back, and we have to look back. Now, what they do is, they budget us based on the estimated budget of the year prior. And what happens is, we never actually meet that estimated budget, so we're like two years behind.
I'm very clear on the process. Can I -- Mr. President, can you just allow me just to do this? Because I don't -- I want to make sure we get the appropriate numbers on the record, and this is for you all.
For deputies now, our full -- let me -- this is -- because I just try to put that -- what we want --
No, meaning -- the question is, what is your full staff complement? If you were fully 100 percent staffed, able to hire -
What is that number? SHERIFF BILAL: No, no, no. 5 She's asking, if we were fully staffed --
Yes. SHERIFF BILAL: We would need 610 deputies.
But I have also a follow-up. SHERIFF BILAL: Is that the number she wants?
And 610. And then, how many are you budgeted for? SHERIFF BILAL: Right now, we're budgeted -- what does our budgets say?
Right now, we only have 200 -- we're budgeted for 273. SHERIFF BILAL: No, no. 3 That's what we have. What are we budgeted for on our budget? What are we budgeted for? MV: We budgeted for 391.
So, just to be clear, because I want to do this, because this is, I think, helpful to what you are stating. But it's -- I have to understand the numbers. SHERIFF BILAL: Right.
Full staff complement is 610. Budgeted for 391. What is, right now, your vacancy rate?
Oh, right now, we're vacant, at least -- well, our vacancy is about 119, because the way we can -- the number of full complement is not what we're asking for.
But don't you want to fill vacancies before you get budgeted to --
Right. That's what I'm just -- okay. Thank you. I apologize. I just needed a point of clarification --
-- so that we understand what the true ask is relative to staffing needs. And I apologize, Councilmember Jones.
No, not at all. You got to the question I was asked. SHERIFF BILAL: Are you clear?
Yes, ma'am. Thank you. SHERIFF BILAL: Thank you.
Thank you so much. And thank you for the clarification. It's on the record as we speak. So, you're doing what you can with what you have, but not what you should have or should be budgeted for. That needs to be on this record so that, you know, when you get criticisms, you understand, well, you know, here's an answer. And all roads lead to Rome, but all of those roads have toll booths. And we got to be willing to pay those toll booths to get you operating at efficient levels. That's number two. Third thing is probation. Although we have, as I understand it, the vast -- and I got it from a reliable source, that the operations of the judges feel a little more protected based on your improvement. They do. I talked to them. Where are we at with probation? And I understand they're closed because they can't get a compliment of sheriffs to feel safe in their particular operation.
I'm sorry. SHERIFF BILAL: You're saying probation is closed. That's not true. Go ahead.
Again, the sheriff answered that in the blunt question. That's not true. Probation department was a -- does have the security that they need because they have probation officers that are trained. That's the first thing. Secondly, what our warrant unit was doing in the probation department was not what the warrant unit is designed to do. Thirdly, we had conversations for months about probation and we were moving our warrant unit, why we were moving our warrant unit, what we needed to move our warrant unit from. And I sat across from the executives in probation and said, how much time do you need to get in place the things that you need to get in place so that you can run your building? So, our probation department, instead of dealing with that aspect, and we just, since we're going to put it on the record, what they did was complain about the sheriff making a decision that benefited the whole.
Probation is open. We still have sheriffs down there, by the way. Those sheriffs are down there consistent with the order, sitting down in the lobby area. They are conducting it the way that they see fit because they feel a certain way. Not because they're not safe, they feel a certain way. We are working in conjunction with them, and would have continued to work in conjunction with them, that if an arrest occurs or something occurs, we deal with that aspect. We had contingency plans in place. What they desired of us was not the sheriff's job. The sheriff was allowing the leadership over there to assist in a capacity that was taking away from what the sheriff's actions needed to be in other areas based upon what we were doing to bring our plan, that is the security plan, up to snuff. So your question --
All right. So I got your response. It is on the record. I'd like to meet with you in the probation department, because they have a kind of different perspective on how this is going. And I'm okay as chair of public safety, we can get into it and find out how we can help, not how we can point, how we can help to make sure that this thing called justice happens smoothly for everybody. So we put a pin in that. And finally, it was thrusted upon your office that you have to do some of the serving of the warrants. How is that going? SHERIFF BILAL: You want to add in to the additional? We -- our office now has the protection from abuse orders, which was not ours originally, is an MOU --
That's why I asked in the beginning, what's your primary? SHERIFF BILAL: -- between us and the Philadelphia police department in reference to the protection from abuse orders our warrant unit is serving at now, we now have the landlord tenant office, which are the evictions that we basically are doing. And I wanted to bring Inspector Fallen up here so he can basically give you the outline and the numbers of that. You want to add to those things? CHIEF DEPUTY THORNTON: Yeah, I pretty much know. SHERIFF BILAL: Good. Tell them who you are. CHIEF DEPUTY THORNTON: Good afternoon. Chief Deputy Sean Thornton.
Good afternoon. CHIEF DEPUTY THORNTON: Chief Deputy of Court Operations. We went from, before we took over the landlord-tenant court operation, we were doing maybe five evictions a day. That number increased because of that situation when we took over to a day. And 6 so when we talk about numbers and 7 what we're budgeted for and what we 8 actually have, that's the reason -- 9 that's the biggest difference. 10 We're taking on more functions 11 within the Sheriff's Office under 12 Sheriff Bilal since she got in. As 13 she alluded to with the PFAs, we 14 weren't doing that function, but 15 that was something that we took on 16 during the pandemic and has worked 17 out beautifully with no incidents. 18 So now we took over that whole 19 function along with the landlord- 20 tenant court evictions. So we 21 continue to grow. And this is the 22 -- this is one of the reasons why we 23 talk about budgeting and increased 24 officers.
That's exactly why -- that's exactly why I asked the question. We're putting all of this on you. All roads lead to Rome, but none of the toll booths are getting -- you're not --
And I'm just trying to get some clarity. So you're expanding the level of responsibilities, right? Which means you have more of a workload, right? SHERIFF BILAL: That's correct.
But if we aren't filling the vacancies for personnel, then you're working not at your full capacity because you continually have to recruit people to fill the personnel to help you do the work that's increasingly growing on your caseload, correct? SHERIFF BILAL: That's correct.
And so the key is also we need additional funding for the budget, right? And just being fair, like we talk to every agency that comes here, what we're going to take in consideration, and I can't speak for the administration, but I know how we work as a body. We're going to also look at the vacancies and calculation what you're actually requesting funding for and would like to see the vacancy field first, right? Because vacancies count also in a revenue scheme of things, right, where individuals come in front of us. And no different than the administration as well. They have significant level of vacancies, right? And so we're looking at the budgeting process. We take that in consideration in terms of dollars and cents. And so that's just really along the lines of the questioning in terms of when you take in consideration your budget and your strategy for personnel, just knowing that it's going to go hand in hand. And so we can all be on the same page when we're having a conversation with the administration or when we're inside the appropriations hearing talking about how we're going to support different agencies in general. It just stuck out. That's why I just wanted to mention that. Chairman Jones, and then we're going to move on to Councilman Jamie Gauthier.
Thank you so much. So all I'm saying to you is if we keep piling up more work for you to do, at some point we have to compensate with the budget. We can't just ask you to take on more and more responsibilities, warrant, high-risk warrant service, eviction things, and not recognize that that has a budgetary impact. So there will be those that will observe, well, look what they're not doing. Well, look at the complement of staff they have. Look at what we've asked them to take on. And we have to put all of that into consideration as we make our Shedeur Sanders analogies. Because you could tear it all up. On the field, you're doing what you're supposed to do, but you're doing it with less than others would -- than what your budget costs. And that's what I'm saying. SHERIFF BILAL: And this is the analogy that I've developed here. I said it's almost like somebody gave me a brand-new car. I go to open the door of the car. There's no lights. There's no 5 engine. There's no transmission. Instead of running away and saying, you-all gave me the wrong car, we decided as a team to begin to build from the ground up. So that we can put lights in. We can put an engine in. We're still working on a transmission. So that we can build what some people said 40 years ago, as to build it up to be in compliance and operating. That's what we're dealing with. Because when we came into the office, there was no blueprint plan. Nobody transitioned. Absolutely nothing. It was almost they left and didn't leave a paper clip. And so we analyzed everything, got an audit. And as we bring the office into compliance with the city's ordinance and information and administrative stuff, that's what we're doing now. And in that interim, we get the PFAs and then the LTOs go out of business and we get that. And we are now in a building that basically can't even compensate all of us being there. And you're talking about our eviction people. Because we have like cars and where are they 12 going to park at? So we are -- we 13 are in -- let me just say this. We 14 are doing the best that we can with 15 what we have. And we will continue 16 to work to build it up and get the 17 people in. Because under this 18 administration, just to be fair, has 19 given us more than what we got from 20 our previous administration.
Okay. SHERIFF BILAL: Basically for HR by advertising twice a year instead of once, six weeks and closing it down. When we are defining what our people's positions is, being comparable to make sure. And to add to this, we just got approved for our youth engagement director. Because in order to recruit, we want to get young people starting from the 9th Grade to bring them up. Thinking about being a deputy sheriff for future stuff.
Thank you. I just wanted, on the record, to show what you're lugging up that hill. SHERIFF BILAL: Yes.
And not to have us kind of wash over. Oh, well. SHERIFF BILAL: I appreciate it.
And I wanted our colleagues to know what you're up against. Thank you, Mr. President.
You're welcome, Mr. Chair. Just one quick question. And I asked this question to a couple of other agencies that operate the same one -- but -- the same way. But I want to also just make sure you go on the record. And this is how we can be supportive in terms of collaboration. The custodial fund, right? Your own particular fund that you run, which has an independent office you have the right to. I know District Attorney Larry Krasner has one. He uses it to give out grants to neighborhood- based organizations to focus on the itches of violence prevention. Which I think is great because I know his predecessors didn't do the same thing. Giving us an overview of how much you bring in through the custodial fund, right? I mean, because we're working in partnerships and we're going to give additional funds to be supportive of you. Can you share that just with us as a body? Since we're advocating inside various committees to make sure we're being supportive of the things that you want to accomplish. SHERIFF BILAL: We might have to give that information to you because I don't think -- did you bring that with you today?
Okay. All right. Let's make sure you provide it for the chair just for our edifice. SHERIFF BILAL: Yes. We will provide --
As we go about examining, and I think what Chairman Jones also pointed out, you're doing a whole lot more than just the traditional. So, obviously, that's taken into consideration. And then also, we know for a fact, though, from the work that you do with the houses and so forth and being able to bring in additional revenue on your own, that also play a role in the conversation as well. SHERIFF BILAL: Got you.
That we have to have amongst ourselves, especially the chair of finance and the chair of appropriations, Councilman Squilla who isn't here at the moment. The Chair recognizes Councilman Jamie Gauthier, then Councilmember Jim Harrity, and then Councilmember Nicholas O'Rourke.
Thank you, Council President. Good afternoon, Sheriff Bilal. Thank you for being here today, and thanks for all of the work that you and your team do on behalf of the City of Philadelphia. I have some questions about land acquisition, Sheriff's Sales, and the Land Bank's priority bid process. I know that many of us in Council are very pleased that the Land Bank will be participating in Sheriff's Sales via its priority bid process very soon. I want to give a huge shout out to Councilmember Brooks for advancing that legislation. Can you update us on what additional coordination is needed between your team and the Land Bank in order to be ready for next month's sales? Or is that work already done? And I also understand that many constituents are probably going directly to the sheriff's office trying to get a sale post postponed for a property that they are maintaining as a garden or a side yard. And they may not know that there is an option to solicit support from the Land Bank in acquisition. Now that we have a priority bid process in place, is there a communications process in place where the sheriff can notify the Land Bank staff of constituent interest in a particular property before it gets sold off? Or is there a way the sheriff can do a one-time temporary postponement to give people time to reach out to the Land Bank and make their case for acquisition? And this is all about protecting community gardens and community spaces in our district and across the city. And I know that was a lot, so I can repeat those questions if needed. SHERIFF BILAL: We going to let Tariq, the undersheriff, because he deals a lot with the real estate and basically negotiated that MOU between our office and the Land Bank.
-- I'm not going to even say a point of information, and I'll let this process continue to move forward. I do want to thank publicly the one and only Tariq El-Shabazz for your work that you have been doing and working in partnership under the tutelage of Sheriff Rochelle Bilal and your legal mind and just working to move the Sheriff's Office forward. I didn't get a chance to acknowledge you, though, but to those who may or may not know, this is the Tariq El-Shabazz. Before, you know, a lot of these guys, what is it, Shaka, ain't that a guy's name? Before Shaka Johnson and all the other ones in the city of Philadelphia. It was Tariq El-Shabazz. And so I'm going to digress and let my members continue. I just wanted to make sure -- I wanted to make sure -- I just wanted to make sure I did the acknowledgement for the record, sir. Go ahead.
All right. First of all, I appreciate -- I appreciate your comments. And I'm blessed. Tremendously blessed. On March 22nd, 2025, myself, along with the legal team, the Assistant Undersheriffs Shyann Gales-Poland and LaVanda Harris worked along with the law department and the partners with the Land Bank trying to come up with an MOU. One of the stalls or one of the roadblocks we ran into is that we didn't have an MOU between the Sheriff's Office and the Land Bank. And it was important because there was new law that came down, new legislation that was passed through the City Council so that we can be in compliance with that law. And as the fiduciary, we wanted to make sure that we covered all those, specifically people who were having their property or land taken and notifications.
We've gone through a 10-page memorandum of understanding and it took some good work and working together to get it done. In that memorandum of understanding, there are notice requirements. The notice requirements, something that you're talking about that we stood strong on, the sheriff was vehemently locked in to notification going to the person who was going to have their property sold by priority bid. Priority bid, just for this record, is that that bid is just going to be for the lien that is on that particular property. So if the lien is $2,500, then the priority bid is that $2,500, no money extra. The reason why that is important is that under Real Estate Law and Sheriff Sales, the fiduciary has the responsibility to make sure that the sale occurs and that they get the most amount of money that we can get for that property being taken. That's important because the law recognizes that now they're taking something from someone, they're trying to make that person whole. Under normal circumstances, a $2,500 lien can generate $50,000 in an open general bid. But that wouldn't occur. That would mean that the debt would be satisfied for that $25,000 after we run a title check to make sure that no other liens, no other money owed to the city, whatever the excess proceeds would be, would go to the person that lost their property. So that person may get $40,000. That doesn't happen in a priority bid. So it was important to make sure that we notify people. And the Land Bank agreed with that. And the law department agreed with that, and we worked out notification process. Some of the things that you mentioned in your question actually falls on the responsibility of the Land Bank according to the statute.
I think I'm asking for a few specific things. So one, it -- thank you for taking on this effort. I know it was a lot, especially with our new method of Sheriff Sales. But now that we have the MOU, are we ready to go for next month's sales with the Land Bank's priority bid? That's the first question. Secondly, I understand that you give notice. I understand that there are different responsibilities in this process that fall among you and the Land Bank, but ultimately we're trying to help, you know, Ms. Johnson. Ms. Johnson, that's been tending a piece of land for years and years and years and it's a benefit to the community. When Ms. Johnson gets that notice, I'm sure she's reaching out to the office. Do you have further ability to do a one-time postponement so that Ms. Johnson can contact the Land Bank to get help with the Land Bank using that priority bid to acquire that property? Or is there communication that can happen even though it's not fully your responsibility in the benefit of helping Ms. Johnson in the community? Is there a communication that can happen between your agency and the Land Bank that could get that assistance for, you know, the resident? Because I'm sure it's very difficult for people to understand this process and all of the ways that we can intervene on their behalf.
Okay. First answer to your first question, it is ready to go based on our understanding and our mechanisms are in place for that sale in May.
We're just waiting on the Land Bank letting us know, notifying the property. Secondly, with respect to having the ability to do a one-time postponement, we are without that without court order. What, in fact, can occur is they can contact if -- once it's a priority bid and they receive notification, they can contact the Land Bank. The Land Bank then has the obligation with respect to letting us know that and we can pull it from priority bid if in fact that person has a right to it and indicates that they do -- they wanted to go through a general bid or have the ability to pay for that. We have -- we have opened up a line of general communication because the sheriff has indicated that she's willing to use her team of detectives to try to locate people so that in fact we can notify those individuals. If in fact we receive and we have the ability to postpone it prior to, during, or even after a sale, if in fact something comes up to allow us to do that. We -- unfortunately, we can't do it without the court order.
But the plaintiff on the writ, for example, the city, has the ability to pull it. And working with the Law Department, they've indicated that they are going through the list. They will be communicating with us, and they won't have any problem with pulling that property. What I would submit is this, if we are notified, now, remember we are a fiduciary, so we supposed to be neutral. But if we are notified, we can, in fact, as we always do when we post things on properties, but this is not us, this is the Land Bank. We can turn people through our constituent services to who to contact to have that done.
I can, or one of the assistant undersheriffs or someone from real estate can make the call to Land Bank and tell them, listen, this person has gotten in contact with us.
Now, we can do that. But we're being careful because we're supposed to be neutral as to all parties. We didn't want to take on as if we are working against the Land Bank or for the Land Bank. However, this sheriff will not allow us to turn down someone who calls about a property to not contact someone. And we will -- we will contact that person. We've already had that conversation. So we actually have that kind of understanding. Yes, ma'am.
Okay. So it sounds like you're saying yes to my question in a -- in a very legal way, but --
I would love to talk about that after the hearing if possible.
We absolutely can. SHERIFF BILAL: See what we put in place is a constituent services.
Okay. SHERIFF BILAL: And all the pamphlets is on our website because it's constituent services function in the sheriff's office is that when people get posters and they get information, they can call us. And their job in constituent services is to look at all the avenues, state, local, and federal on how to help them and connect them with the person that they need the most. Because most time people see that, they get scared, they go in, they say nothing. We put all of these on all our papers that go out with them to let them know that there are programs to help them. And we say to Council, if you find another program that we don't have in our booklet, you can send it over and we will update our booklet to make sure it's included, that they get all the information possible that can help families in the city.
Okay. Is a Land Bank priority bid in there? SHERIFF BILAL: If that's an issue --
I would say that's a candidate for going in there. SHERIFF BILAL: But I'm not -- I'm not going to be the legal arm. You ain't getting me on that one.
Okay. SHERIFF BILAL: We -- Land Bank, basically that negotiation, that MOU is their notifications. They have to do that.
Because it was much -- well -- SHERIFF BILAL: It's a lot.
-- that timeframe is good to allow individuals that notification. So go on the record in saying that. The Chair recognizes Councilmember Jim Harrity, then Councilmember Nicholas O'Rourke, then Councilmember Dr. Anthony Phillips.
Thank you, Council president. Thank you, Sheriff Bilal. Thank you for your service to the city. Quite frankly, and you know, I apologize for some of the heat you take because unlike some of my colleagues, I have a unique perspective because I actually spent four years at the Sheriff's Office. And while it was one of my favorite and best jobs I've ever had, there were problems there that were going on for many, many years. Long before you got there. Like the armory problem which you took the heat on, but was, I know, was messed up before you got there. I remember when they did the audit too, afterwards, they figured out that a lot of the guns they were saying were missing weren't actually missing. They were the old service revolvers that the deputies were able to purchase when the city switched from revolvers to auto -- semi-automatics. It was the same thing. The police got to buy theirs. My father has his. I actually have it now, his revolver. So I know the problems that you came in on. You know, they've been there for years and you take a lot of heat for it, and you're very dignified in doing it. Knowing full well that a lot of these issues were there long before you got there. So I just wanted to make sure that you knew that there were some people here on Council that knew and know that you didn't do this to this office. As a matter of fact, when you were running, you ran on reforming the office and changing the office for the better. And I believe you're working towards that. And I'm really upset about the fact that prison guards make more than the deputies now. It was actually the opposite when I was there. That's how we recruited most of the sheriff's officers because we actually didn't have to spend as much on training because they were already trained in prisoner transport and stuff like that. And the reason the prisoner guards wanted to transfer to the sheriffs was because they made more money. So I see now why we have this problem. How can we help to fill these vacancies? What can we do to help you have a fighting chance at filling this stuff? Because the fact of the matter is you're competing with every city department, including the police department, which does pay a little more. They don't pay enough either, but they do pay a little more than the deputies get paid. So what's -- how do we -- how do we help? SHERIFF BILAL: First of all, thank you, Councilmember Harrity in reference to this. And we appreciate all the help that you could possibly get. We -- as I said before, we are starting to get some movement from HR in reference to recruitment. That has never happened before, at least not since I've been there. Pay, as far as the deputy sheriff's is concerned. The other situation seems to be that our deputy sheriff's pension is different from everybody else's. It's like one, two, three pension here, pension there. They got to work longer in reference to this. So it's a lot of things that go into bargaining with their union as far as to get them equal balance, because right now they are not. And so their pay equity in reference to them may help as far as recruitment. That's the way. Ensuring that our budget has an advertising budget because, you know, it doesn't. And so we can't go up on buses and trains. The operations fund this time we paid for the advertisement.
Just a point of information. Help me out with clarity on it. So you don't set your own advertising budget; is that correct? SHERIFF BILAL: Not in our budget. That comes from the city. No. 11
Okay. So the city allots you money to do advertisement? SHERIFF BILAL: I think that -- what was it, 10,000?
Okay. SHERIFF BILAL: It was a 10,000 budget for advertising for recruitment.
Okay. And why is it set up that way where you just don't use your own budget for your own advertisement? If you say we giving you million, 4 you spend your -- you want to spend 5 a million on advertising, why isn't 6 that the case where the city has to 7 allot you money for advertising? 8 SHERIFF BILAL: That's how 9 the budget has been coming to us 10 from before. We get -- if you give 11 us money, say this way, we spend it 12 on advertisement, we can document we 13 spend it on advertisement and where 14 it went. Because once you allot the 15 money in our budget, we spend it 16 specifically for what you allotted 17 for. 18
Just a -- just a -- another follow up question because this is probably one of the other problem is how are you doing on retention of officers? Because that's part of the problem with some of the -- a lot of the other city agencies, like the other week they said they filled 79 jobs, HR, and 89 people retired. So they actually are short right now. 7 And they just got 79 people, but 8 they're already short. 9 SHERIFF BILAL: It's the 10 same with us. We -- this law enforcement agency is no different from any law enforcement agency across the country. Hiring was difficult because certain things came into play. It was a pandemic. George Floyd happened, Tamir Rice happened. All of these things came into play that made law enforcement not sexy. And so by our community engagement from all the law enforcement agencies, build that trust back up so people will look at it as another career. That's basically it right there. You have to be able to -- those -- our deputy sheriffs are going off to bigger paying jobs. That's what they doing. They come in, we train them, we keep them for a couple of years. If something post outside of that making more money, they're gone. That's the issue.
Yeah. And -- yeah, that's the -- being already trained, I imagine it is. Like out in California, the sheriff is it. LAPD is number two. You know, it's different. And, you know, I get it. I thank you for your service and please feel free to let me know how we can help with this plate on the advertising too. Maybe a couple more employment things in different neighborhoods. So I'd like to help out with that. That would great. SHERIFF BILAL: Thank you.
Thank you. And thank you, Member Harrity. And this institution, Member Harrity, we can't talk about LAPD. They beat up Rodney King, so. The Chair recognizes -- the sheriff's much better than that in Philly. I'm just having -- I'm just having -- I'm just having fun today, sir. I'm having fun today, Member Harrity. Councilmember Nicholas O'Rourke, Councilmember Dr. Phillips, and then Majority Leader Gilmore-Richardson, then Dr. Nina Ahmad.
Thank you, Mr. President. And good afternoon, Sheriff. SHERIFF BILAL: Good afternoon.
Your testimony mentioned the live scan mobile fingerprinting and biometric recognition tool. I have a few concerns personally about how this would actually be implemented, including the potential for stop and frisk style encounters, which I'm not a fan of. But given the state of the world today, I'd actually like to ask about data sharing.
Yeah. Live scan mobile fingerprinting and biometric recognition tools. So it is really straightforward. Can you confirm for us here and now that ICE will not be given access to this system of mobile fingerprinting and biometric recognition?
We don't deal with ICE. SHERIFF BILAL: Let -- we going to let the legal person say that because we won't be on the hook.
-- that our policy does not include ICE using our facilities to make any determination with respect to that.
I thank you, Undersheriff. I appreciate it. Thank you. SHERIFF BILAL: That was a good question.
Thank you very much. I think it's important for a lot of folks in this current political climate. Also, so I understand, and I had -- and I thank you for the opportunity for myself. I believe it was Member Gauthier and Leader Brooks, that had a chance to tour the sheriff's offices sometime last year. I think it was still cold outside. And thank you for the opportunity to do that. And there, I think we had some conversation about this, but I understand, you know, your desire to increase hiring. And while I understand that, a local academy I no longer think is just a silver bullet. Both the police and the prisons have local academies and staffing continues to be an issue according to both departments. Do you have data which will show that this issue, and not other factors such as, to your point already earlier, salary disparities, are a primary driver of staffing issues and should thus then lead to a large scale capital investment like building a -- an academy here? SHERIFF BILAL: As far as data, we are basically putting that together now. What we found out is when we advertise for people to take the -- put the application in to be deputy sheriffs, and we get to the orientation. And once those that put in that application and we tell them that they got to go up to Penn State for weeks, five days a week 6 and only come home on a Friday and 7 got to get back up there by Sunday 8 night, is when the drop off happens. 9 That's what we are seeing. 10
11 And all -- 12 SHERIFF BILAL: We could 13 get a thousand people to apply and 14 then we go through orientation. As 15 soon as they find out that they have 16 to go to Penn State and leave five 17 days a week and stay up there, they 18 don't show up for the physical 19 agility. They disappear.
But also, Madam Sheriff, also acknowledged that, and it's not guaranteed after you do the orientation -- is it -- is it guaranteed after the orientation that you will become a sheriff? SHERIFF BILAL: No. 4
Yes. Because I had someone who said, well, the decision for me to go there for weeks away from my 8 family but it's not guaranteed that 9 I'm going to get the job -- 10 SHERIFF BILAL: Well, ours 11 is different because once you do the 12 application, now we start that 13 process. You got to pass the 14 physical agility. You have to also 15 pass the background check. You also 16 have to pass the psychological and 17 the physical. And so those are the 18 other key elements that basically 19 starts weaning people out. But the real drop off starts when we do the orientation and say to them, once we hire, but you have to go to Penn State and that drops off. But the ones that stay, those are the other things that they have to go through. Once they pass all of that, we hire them. They become deputy sheriffs because we train in-house firearms, CPR, and the directive that basically starts giving them the basics of what they're going to learn up at Penn State. They hire after that, before we get a spot at Penn State in order for them to get certified. So we hire them after those things. They pass those, we hire them, we start training them in-house, which that's what I'm saying, an academy puts them a bigger group in-house to start training.
So if they do pass the training, then you do hire them? SHERIFF BILAL: That's correct. We -- when you pass the initial part, your application, your background check, physical agility tests, psychological exam, then we hire you. My panel recommends you being hired. We hire you and put you on payroll. Prior to sending you up to Penn State, you are a city employee.
Oh, wow. Okay. Well, it sounds like you're still compiling the data. At the moment, what you're saying is more anecdotal, but it's a strong anecdote based off of what you're hearing from folks. SHERIFF BILAL: Mm-hmm.
We would love the data, actually the actual numbers on what the drop off is and things like that when you get that. But thank you for responding to the question. SHERIFF BILAL: Yes.
But so that the record is clear in answer to the President's question, they still have to become certified. And if they go up to Penn State and they don't pass the certifications, then they -- this sheriff in her discretion can make some decisions with respect to them, but they have to be certified as well. So it is, they are on payroll. So they are hired, but they have to be certified.
I'm probably taxing my time, but what would -- if it's up to the sheriff's discretion to not certify them after that happens, what are some --
No, it's not -- if they don't pass the certification, they have to do firearms training up there. What the sheriff does is train you enough that you should be able to go up to Penn State and pass. You get law courses, you get civil courses and you have to be able to pass those exams as well as the physical agility, firearms to the end of it. If you don't pass one of those pods --
In Penn State, then you are sent back and then the Sheriff based upon her evaluation of what you didn't pass, et cetera, can make a determination to ask them to take you back for that particular pod. So you are hired as a city employee, but you have to be certified in order to come back and work as a sheriff -- a deputy sheriff.
Okay. I'm learning. Thank you for your responses.
Point of the information Councilmember Harrity?
Yes, sir. I'm sorry. You did say though, in your thing, if we build a sheriff academy that the surrounding counties on the eastern part, they would be very interested in going to our academy, which would in turn be some revenue too also, correct? SHERIFF BILAL: That's correct.
Because the fire department, we send our people out and we have to pay for that. A lot of money. SHERIFF BILAL: Well, matter of fact, the -- was it Montgomery County? Which one is it? McKinley?
It's Montgomery County. SHERIFF BILAL: Montgomery County. He's head of the Pennsylvania Sheriff's Association. Basically sent us a letter, we'll be happy to be able to have his people come to the Regional Sheriff Academy because then they can come and go home at night. This is not just a hindrance for us. This is a hindrance from the surrounding counties that would love to have a regional sheriff academy here to be able to send their people here too.
Does that track -- I mean, you probably wouldn't know, but does anyone know if that tracks for police and prisons, because they have academies here. Do they also kind of get a catchment of other folks wanting to use the facilities and therefore drawings revenue as well? Is that -- does that track?
Yeah. The idea was that if we build like a sheriff city --
They'll come -- they will come. SHERIFF BILAL: They will come.
That -- there would be -- it would be kind of a catchment for the eastern seaboard of folks.
I -- I'll say this and then I have to move on to the next individual. We do know, and this was in the hearing other day, because our firefighters don't have a, and I don't even want to say state of our art, I'm going to just say they just have a training facility that's inadequate at the moment. They actually go to other counties for training, right? They don't even have a working tower to train their firefighters. So they go to Bucks County to utilize their facility. So the question is, do we think that if you built this local academy, will other surrounding counties come and utilize your local training facility? I would think they would, but I guess if the question is the data, that's something for us to take a look at and see. But I would think -- and then also that would take in consideration what their facilities are like. But if we have a state-of-the-art facility, then I wouldn't take it off the table that -- off the table that people actually come here and utilize it. And also could be a source of revenue additionally as well. And so --
Yeah. Thank you, Mr. President. Just in conclusion, if I could just say, I -- the -- for me it's like, again, the issue is around hiring. And the I -- as I was understanding it, that the lack of an academy locally, and I remember you mentioning this when we did the tour, was, as you understood, the deterrent for folks actually coming in. The issue that I was -- what I was trying to make sense of it was, was that the police and the prisons actually do have academies and they still also have a major issue in terms of recording -- recruiting and hiring. And so I wanted to make sure that if we're putting a lot of weight on a capital investment, which will be a big deal, right, to build an academy here, are we sure that's what it is or are we sure it is just not what we've already been talking about this whole time, which is you got deputies that get less paid than prison guards. So I just want to get clear about that. So if you -- and I heard you say that you were compiling the data now --
When you get that, that'd be great. I'm sorry, sir.
Yeah, I have to move on. But point well taken. And I think also in terms of investment and resources, I think he's also saying another way is if you didn't build it and you started to invest all that money into higher raises, right, with that being incentive to bring more people in as opposed to the training. But you are the sheriff. So we'll let you make those decisions and members of council work with you in the administration to figure out how best to proceed on your agenda. Dr. Anthony Phillips, Majority Leader Richardson, then Dr. Nina Ahmad.
Thank you. I just want to say thank you Sheriff for working and make the Sheriff's Office stronger. I know it's difficult and I know there's a lot of challenges, but we --
Could you speak into the microphone, sir, please.
Oh. I want to say thank you, Sheriff, for the work that you're doing to try to make the Sheriff's Office stronger. We see the challenges that you're going through and thank you for trying to be innovative as well every day in your work. Just to be helpful, I just have one question. You mentioned the Sheriff's Academy. I just wanted to know -- as a pipeline for hiring, I just want to know what supports can City Council provide in terms of legislative, financial, whatever supports it could be to help you make the proposal reality in FY26, other than funding, I guess. What type of -- if you can just go into the details of what else we could do? SHERIFF BILAL: Thank you, Councilmember. Appreciate that in insisting us with this idea. We have been looking at this from the day I walked into office in 2020, and reference to having a place where our deputy sheriffs can be trained here in this city. We are not saying build anything from the ground up. That's a lot. We have also talked to senators and our state delegation, so it won't be the city all on its own. We've found a location that is local that basically is cleared out and for us to build a structure of what they get up at Penn State. So all we need to do is just set up the walls, the rooms, the simulating rooms and all of that in this facility, which is local, which is ideal for what we are looking at right now. So it's basically like leasing a property that's already cleared out for us to begin to put those facilities together. That's what we are looking at. And that's part of public property. We already submitted the space requirement to the city, and we are looking for public property to go with us to the location and basically look at what our plans is to build out this academy there. So those are the things that we already started doing on our own, analyzing it and the cost and analyzation has already been sent up. Well, we are sending it up to PCCD to basically show what that cost would be to them or what it won't be to them and what it will be here in the city. And we looked at other revenue and not just the city alone carrying this.
Thank you so much for trying to be innovative and thoughtful with the hiring process and looking forward to furthering supporting you on that. SHERIFF BILAL: Thank you.
Thank you, Member Phillips. Majority Gilmore-Richardson.
Thank you. Thank you, Council President. I'm going to make this quick. First I wanted to thank our Madam Sheriff for all of your help and support. I know we've sent at least three or four constituent cases over the last couple of months and you all are always really responsive and get right back to us and really help us -- help our constituents traverse, you know, the process. So we're really appreciative of that. I know you had talked about earlier, I was taking notes about your full staffing compliment and what you're budgeted for versus your vacancy rate. So I wanted to know, I don't have the exact organizational structure in front of me for your department, but as it relates to the processing time, because this is the constituent case that we get the most, is the processing time for issuance of deeds after a Sheriff's Sale. What is the average like processing time, and then do you all have a full staff compliment there? And if not, what do you need to get to a full compliment? SHERIFF BILAL: I'll let undersheriff talk about the deeds, but in that real estate department is a lot of civilian people. They mostly are not sworn when it comes down to real estate.
Okay. SHERIFF BILAL: As we turned over into a whole new system, our Tyler Tech system, basically where all the partners in the city can upload their information, is where we -- where the deeds and the distribution policy and working out the kinks in this new system became a situation.
I see. SHERIFF BILAL: Now that that system is up and running, and we've worked out the kinks on that. Is -- according to civil process, it is a 90 day process in order to get that. The situation comes in is when people don't read what you actually need to complete your cell. And one of the things we found out is they are not -- they don't understand that in order for you to buy property in this city, you have to have a certification that says you don't own any taxes in the city.
Right. SHERIFF BILAL: And so you could go on and you can buy a property and then you are trying to settle and you can't settle because you don't have that certification. But on the website it tells you what you need. It tells you have to have a certificate of certification that you don't own any taxes in the city. It tells you that. But they start to sell and don't have that. So now everything stops because now they got to go back and get that certification. That's basically so that they can complete the sale.
Okay. SHERIFF BILAL: And that becomes that issue. Then you have those that start to sell and then default. That means they don't -- the next two days they don't pay their percent down and then they have 15 days to complete the sale. 3
4 Right. 5 SHERIFF BILAL: And then 6 they don't complete the sale. So 7 that slows down all the processes of 8 everything going on. Right now we 9 are finishing up, we got the kinks 10 out of the system.
Okay. SHERIFF BILAL: And so we are going to work towards the civil process of that of 90 days, if they don't run into any kinks as far as not having the proper paperwork to complete the sale.
So if they have everything that they need, they should be done in 90 days? SHERIFF BILAL: Yes, ma'am.
And then do you all have a full staffing compliment there? SHERIFF BILAL: No. 4
And if not, what are the needs? SHERIFF BILAL: And see, those are the things you run into when you put a whole new system together. When you are just used to pressing buttons, that means you are not clear on that process manually. And so now we had to train everybody to clearly understand because we had to go manual while we upload the whole system. And you have to analyze when it comes down to distribution policies. And if you are incapable of catching or being able to analyze an ad and subtract on those issue, it will slow the process down. So when we hire in the real estate department, it's specific skills that you got to have. The same way we determined that in our accounting department. When I came in, people were in accounting department that did not have a bookkeeping experience. Not saying we have terminated them, we said, okay, let's train them in this area. But if you don't have bookkeeping experience, you are not going to grasp what an accountant or accounting does. And so in these areas is very specific when we have to hire people for these areas. And so that's what we are out doing now. We are hiring those with the specific skills to work in our real estate department and also work in our accounting department.
Okay. And then I guess the follow up question would be, and I heard the bell, is just how many team members do you need specifically in the real estate unit to process and handle that work? Like what's the -- SHERIFF BILAL: I didn't -- I didn't hear what you said clearly.
I'm sorry. How many team members do you need to be at a full staffing compliment in that division of your department for real estate? SHERIFF BILAL: How many?
Okay. And then what's the vacancy rate? SHERIFF BILAL: I think we, what?
We are eight now? We are working on a staff of eight right now.
Okay. So a staff of eight now. But if you were at a full compliment, you're talking about 23. So the full compliment is 23?
The current staffing component is eight, right?
Okay. All right. Thank you. Thank you, Council President.
Thank you. Chair recognizes Councilmember Dr. Nina Ahmad, then Councilmember Quetcy Lozada, and then wrapping up will be Councilmember Rue Landau.
Thank you, Council President. Good afternoon. SHERIFF BILAL: Good afternoon.
We are looking forward to our meeting to collaborate on AAPI community recruitment for your office. And I am very glad that you have reached out for us to do that. I have a question following up on what Councilmember Nick O'Rourke asked about ICE. And I'm glad to know that this live scan mobile biometric information will not be used. However, recently there was someone who was in the municipal court who was -- whose case was dismissed, felony charge was dismissed. However, a police officer in the courtroom informed court staff and sheriff's deputies that that man was wanted on another arrest warrant. And then the sheriff and court staffer instructed the individual to remain in the courtroom, and the defender instructed -- the public defender instructed her client to leave. The police officer then stepped in and escorted the man outside to awaiting federal authorities. And he remains in an immigration detention -- federal detention center in Philadelphia. So I wanted to know what training your staff has in terms of cooperation or lack thereof with such situations. How clear is your mandate to your staff around these issues? And that warrant that was mentioned, was it checked whether it was a judicial warrant or a ICE detainer. So I would like to get to the bottom of this because this was a request brought to me by constituents. SHERIFF BILAL: Which one --
Let me answer this, please. SHERIFF BILAL: Let me -- let me just say this. I think that was cleared up earlier from the Defenders Association as to actually what happened in that situation. Our sheriff did not take anybody out and give anybody to ICE. We have a policy on that, but I'll let the undersheriff basically let you know what that policy is -- in fact is.
So just before that, it wasn't that they gave them to anybody, it was they told them to remain in the courtroom. That was -- I just wanted to be clear about what -- how -- what the training is for our officials because we are -- we have -- and I remember from Kenny's time, we have separated from sharing information with ICE. So that's the clarity I wanted to know. SHERIFF BILAL: Okay.
Okay. Because -- I'm going to answer this specific question, but I would have to disagree with our sheriff taking any position or telling anyone to stay. In fact, it was the Defender's Association. But I'll say this, we have a policy that ICE in our conversation with anyone that they have to follow in order for it to happen. The first thing is there has to be a valid judicial warrant. That warrant has to be filed in the court of sessions file with the courtroom that the person's supposed to go to 48 hours in advance. That gives us an opportunity to verify whether that is a valid judicial warrant or ICE agent saying warrant for -- warrant for arrest. That's the first thing. Secondly, that warrant would have to be in the court of sessions filed and shown to the judicial body, the judge. The judge would review it and let us know that under his or her review, it is a valid warrant. Once that occurs, then our deputy would take action with respect to that person for that valid warrant. We don't hand off individuals to ICE custody in courtrooms, in the hallway, in the corridor, in the elevator, in the building or the surrounding areas. If that individual who has a valid judicial warrant for their arrest is not in custody, that individual will be taken into custody by our deputies into the basement and transferred to CJ's -- excuse me, the CFCF where they will be processed. ICE wants them, ICE goes to CFCF to get them. If that individual is in custody and we took that individual from either one of the county prisons that the individual is at, that individual's again taken back into custody with us. We will take that individual back to the institution that they came from and ICE would have to go to that institution to give them. We don't have -- other than that process, which I would submit is similar in when we constructed it to the process of PPD, all of the information that I just gave you, we've supplied to the judges of FJD and that is our process to the -- to the letter.
So thank you for the -- for the clarity on that. SHERIFF BILAL: You wanted the training?
Go ahead. SHERIFF BILAL: Go ahead. No. Our deputy sheriffs are trained as to what that process is and what that directive is as far as what are they supposed to do. They did this every roll call. Because all of this is new, and all of this is big. And so they get that at every roll call as to what that process is. That deputy, to my understanding, went to check on whether this was a valid warrant. And then that was it. After that, the person was gone and the next person took the person to wherever they took him at.
So there was no conversation between your sheriff's deputy and the individual in question. Just to be clear on the record, that is what you're saying, correct? SHERIFF BILAL: Say that again.
That the deputy -- your deputy sheriff did not talk to the individual in question and ask them to stay in the courtroom. That did not happen? CHIEF DEPUTY THORNTON: That is correct.
Okay. Good. CHIEF DEPUTY THORNTON: Just to follow up -- if you don't mind, just to follow up on that. When we have a deputy in the courtroom, if there is a warrant, I think the undersheriff actually talked about that, we actually need to have a physical copy of a warrant. We do not detain anyone in the gallery of the courtroom. First of all, it's unsafe, let's just say that. So if we have documents, again, we talk about following court orders and enforcing court orders, we would need an actual court order, which is a warrant to then we can actually take action. Just to say, Hey, sit in the courtroom, that is not something that we do. That is not protocol of the sheriff's office over at the Stout Center. So let's be clear on that part.
Yeah, I want it to be clear because I'm reading from the newspaper. CHIEF DEPUTY THORNTON: Right.
So that's why I wanted we make sure it's abundantly clear on the record that you have a process and that process is followed and people are informed. And this was some something else. SHERIFF BILAL: Well, as we could say from that newspaper, you can't believe everything that they write. Let's move on from that one.
Well, I know -- I just wanted a quick follow up on a separate matter. First to say, when you were running for office, you talked about being compassionate in when people were being removed from their homes or their homes were being possessed. So thank you. I see you're still continuing to do that and that is critical. This is to Councilmember Gauthier's point that she was making. I had -- I had an experience in a family court where I was a witness waiting to go into a case of custody for a child. And I watched another case happen where it's always a sad time. Somebody is losing custody and somebody is gaining custody. And the person losing obviously is distraught. And there was an incident that happened and I -- it got me thinking that we always know in these kinds of custody cases, there's going to be heightened emotions. Is there any support for dealing with families as they -- as they get their decision handed to them to avoid this? Because in that instance, it escalated into that, you know, a grief party getting into an altercation with the lawyer and then it, you know, it was going to be a felony case after that. And so this escalated unnecessarily because they were of -- obviously upset. I'm just thinking procedurally, maybe this is a, you know, first judicial district's purview, but as a sheriff's office, because you deal with a lot of heightened emotions, whether it's an eviction or it's a, you know, losing their property or being in courtrooms when difficult decisions are handed down. I just wondered if there was scope for you or do you already do some kind of support for families or people facing these times, which would avoid what I saw happen. And apparently it happens a lot in family court? SHERIFF BILAL: Introduce yourself.
Good afternoon. Inspector Heinz, Commander of Family Court. Good afternoon, Council President, Council Members.
To answer that question, this sheriff has mandated that all our family court deputies be conflict resolution trained. So they are trained and we do understand the heightened emotion that goes with it. And we do preach the protect and serve part of our mission. So under this sheriff, yes, we do allow a little more latitude in family court. But once it escalates, we have to meet the escalation. But we are -- we do try to deescalate every problem and we're trained in deescalation for that reason.
All right. Good to know. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, Council President.
Thank you very much, Dr. Ahmad. The Chair recognizes Councilmember Quetcy Lozada, then Councilman Rue Landau. Okay. Rue. Okay. Councilmember Quetcy Lozada. We're wrapping up.