2407 COUNCIL OF THE CITY OF PHILADELPHIA CAPITAL PROGRAM & BUDGET HEARINGS BEFORE THE COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE - - - Room 400, City Hall Philadelphia, Pennsylvania Tuesday, March 2, 1999 10:30 a.m. - - - Bill No. 990026 - Amending Chapter 19-1800 of The Philadelphia Code entitled "School Tax Authorization". . . Bill No. 990027 - Amending Chapter 19-1800 of The Philadelphia Code entitled "School Tax Authorization". . . Bill No. 990028 - Amending Chapter 19-1800 of The Philadelphia Code entitled "School Tax Authorization". . . PRESENT: COUNCIL PRESIDENT ANNA C. VERNA, Chair COUNCILWOMAN JANNIE BLACKWELL COUNCILMAN DAVID COHEN COUNCILMAN JAMES F. KENNEY COUNCILWOMAN DONNA REED MILLER COUNCILMAN MICHAEL A. NUTTER COUNCILMAN ANGEL L. ORTIZ COUNCILMAN RICHARD T. MARIANO COUNCILMAN W. THACHER LONGSTRETH COUNCILMAN FRANK RIZZO - - - VINCENT VARALLO ASSOCIATES, INC. Registered Professional Reporters Eleven Penn Center, Suite 600 Philadelphia, PA 19103 (215) 561-2220 2408 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. I N D E X David Hornbeck, Superintendent of Schools 2410 John Lombardi, Director of Transportation . . 2410 Gerald Santilli, Acting Associate Managing 2417 Director of Finance Marjorie Adler, Human Resources . . . . . . . 2421 Jackie Sparkman, General Counsel. . . . . . . 2447 Tom McGlenchy, Acting Assistant . . . . . . . 2455 Managing Director for Business Operations Ted Skirski, Acting Director of Design. . . . 2456 and Construction Catherine Connor (position not identified). . 2476 John McLees (position not identified) . . . . 2490 - - - 2409 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. P R O C E E D I N G S
Good morning. This is the continued public hearing of the Committee of the Whole regarding Bill No.'s 990026, 990027 and 990028. The Chair recognizes Councilwoman Blackwell.
Good morning Madam Chair. Thank you. Dr. Hornbeck, I neglected to ask you yesterday about bus attendants. I understand -- and I know I've spoken with you about this, did research on my own on top cities across the country. So my question is -- and I know we use them for special ed. kids. -- is that privatized? The bus drivers, do they work for the Board, do they work for a private company, number one? And, number two, how does it work? And some of the research I've done, one of the people who were not for it, who thought we ought to have bus attendants talked about the fact that with cameras, you can catch it after the fact, but you can't prevent it up front. Where are we on all of that? 2410 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. And, as you know, number three, the unions and, of course, the bus drivers are upset because they lose jobs and they feel that the accidents that occur because there is no attendant on the bus.
The bus attendants, I think in all instances, are employees of the School District. Mr. Lombardi you might join me on this. (John Lombardi comes forward.)
My name is John Lombardi, Director of Transportation Services. We do contract out for bus attendant 2411 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. services where it's more economical with some of the private schools, and as recently as this year, some of the public schools as well as. So we are contracting out for bus attendant services.
So the bus attendants have had on the de-seg. routes, for example, they were our employees?
They were our employees and they were not mandated by any State or federal law.
Okay. There are some attendants, as you noted, Councilwoman Blackwell, that are on the buses because they are provided for in IEPs with kids with disabilities, and those bus attendants will continue. Wherever there is an IEP that requires any service, then we're obligated to provide it, and it's apparently those bus attendants that we do contract with at times, including with the private schools, to which Mr. Lombardi refers, to which the kids are being 2412 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. bused. The attendants that have been taken off the routes, which were the other ones that you were referring to, are -- by and large, at least -- employees. When we looked at this issue first back in the context of Greater Philadelphia First's Management and Productivity Committee recommending a change in that, we went to all the other big cities in the United States, because one of the ways you learn how to do things best is to find the best practices in other places. And what we discovered is that we were the only school district that even had bus attendants, and that the disruption rate, the accident rate, all the other things that have been posited just don't happen at any greater rate with them or without them. And we had gotten into the business of doing it for some reason many years ago. And our experience now has been, since we've taken them off that, in fact, in some years since we've taken them off, the accidents that buses have been engaged in actually went down. And I think we've done it for two years now if I 2413 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. remember correctly; and one year they went down significantly, and one year they went up marginally. So there seems to be no factual connection between an increase in any kind of accidents and the presence of bus attendants. And that certainly continues to be the case nationwide in terms of other school districts.
All right. Would you check on one, two, three -- four bus route numbers for us.
Would you check on four bus route numbers for us. We received information that, in Incident No. 1, Route 3931, that there was an incident involving two male and two female students where one male student exposed himself to the other students. And these are incidents that allegedly happened because there was no attendant on. And that was on 6/5/98. On 9/18/98, Route No. 3854, we're told that students were throwing acorns and other objects out of the windows on Roosevelt Boulevard, 2414 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. and then when of bus driver stopped, students jumped out of the back of the bus and were threatening other students and the bus driver. That, again, was 9/18/ 98. And the third incident allegedly happened on 9/23/98 on Route No. 1085, where students were throwing things -- acorns and other things at the driver, running up seats, and all of that. And school police and monitor, they had both trying to control the situation. And these are things, again, that they allegedly happened because bus attendants were removed. And then on 9/10/98, Route 3889, a driver was assaulted by a parent who boarded the bus and accused her of hitting her son. And these are these alleged charges. So these are incidents that we report happen. And our research also indicates that in many other places, the attendants have been taken off the buses except for special ed. students. But let me ask you, in the case of schools where many incidents of violence or disruption are reported overall, would they be considered maybe -- would we consider them for bus 2415 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. attendants where you have a problem in the neighborhood or a problem with various types of school like public Catholic schools maybe, areas that traditionally there may be problems especially when school lets out or when spring comes? Would these areas be right for reconsideration of a bus attendant?
Certainly if there were an instance where there was some sort of a pattern of behavior that made it appear that for a period of time, somebody on the bus could make a difference. We wouldn't -- I wouldn't categorically exclude that at all. What we will do is, we will look into these incidents that you described as well. But what we would find is that if you went back two years, three years to the time that there were bus attendants, we would also be able to describe a handful of instances. When you consider that we run in a sense -- what is it? -- 1100 buses a day?
And out of a six-month school year so far, we have five or six instances 2416 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. in which a handful of kids were disruptive, acted inappropriately, bad behavior, etc., we had that, quite frankly, even before we took the bus attendants off. So it's not the bus attendant that is the factor in this, and that's what we've found in terms of the factual stuff about the increase or the decrease in the incidents on the buses, but we will certainly look at these four incidents.
Yes. My understanding -- I didn't give you all of the report on the last incident. When this incident happened, a bus attendant was there and helped restrain the parent and removed the parent from the bus, but that bus attendant was also removed later in the year, and that was an incident where, thank God, a bus attendant was there to deal with the issue.
Thank you. The Chair recognizes Councilman Kenney. 2417 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST.
Thank you, Madame President. Good morning. Dr. Hornbeck, does the budget that we are examining today and yesterday include all of the monies that the School District receives? For example, are there grant monies in here, federal funds, Title I dollars?
Is there some document that exists that lists how that money is spent and how much --
There's a Volume II of the budget book that typically comes out about three to four weeks after that one's released.
Yes, it's the Categorical Budget, it's Volume II of the budget 2418 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. book.
Are there -- one of things that I've been having difficulty with is -- we had a discussion yesterday about post-secondary readiness coordinators, the new positions. 7 They don't appear anywhere in this budget, do 8 they? 9
They're 12 categorically funded. How many other similar-type 13 administrative positions appear in Categorical 14 Budget that we don't really see -- or won't see 15 for a few weeks? 16
What's the difficulty with the Categorical Budget being later 2419 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. than --
The funding is not -- we haven't been notified of our funding yet. So typically, most of the categorical funds are federally funded, and we haven't received notification from the federal government as to whether the funding is secure or at what level we'll be funded yet.
In the materials provided to Council as it relates to the discussion this budget document, are all those administrative positions in the Categorical Budget reflected in the documentation that we've been given for this budget?
Well, categorical positions would only be in Categorical Budget. The information that we have here about budget is strictly Operating Budget; it doesn't include categorical at all. There will be a similar breakdown in that book of administrative instructional, of all the various categories that we discussed yesterday.
So this isn't necessarily a true overall picture of the number 2420 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. of administrative personnel?
Do we have a count, both categorically and operationally, of how many teachers we have, the exact number of teachers?
Of those 12,300 teachers, are they all in a classroom?
No, not on a day-to-day basis. There's a concept called "Teachers on Special Assignment," and they're principals on special assignment -- and there are a couple of hundred?
A couple hundred 2421 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. out of 13,000 that are on special assignment?
What are examples of what those special assignments are?.
I'm Marjorie Adler, Human Resources for the School District. In total, including teachers on special assignment, they are closer to is 12,500 teachers. Teachers on special assignment might be facilitators working with teachers in their classrooms and doing professional development. They might be working on curriculum. Those kind of things.
But are they counted for purposes of our budget as instructional staff?
But they're really not performing instructional duties.
My guess is that probably some of them are not counted as instructional staff -- that would be your answer, Gerry? 2422 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST.
No. They are considered in the appropriate category. If they're in an administrative function, they would be classified as administrative. If they happen to be working on professional development, they would be in the professional development category. They are not classified as instructional.
So the categories of administrator instructional, and then there's another category of -- of-- you said there was three --
There's more than three cat -- instructional, there's support services, there's in-school leadership, there's administrative, there's professional development. And that's on a chart -- I think on the third of the charts yesterday that's broken down for you. There's a pie chart.
We're just talking now about the Operational Budget, not the Categorical Budget.
Okay. And what is the purpose of having those teachers on special 2423 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. assignment? Why --
Well, it depends on which one you're talking about, but if we're talking about facilitators, for example, the facilitator's job is to help the other 12,300 teachers teach better and improve the achievement of children. And the best people to help teachers are teachers.
But if we have an extreme, as was testified yesterday, an extreme shortage of teachers, wouldn't we be better served by having as many teachers as possible in the classroom?
We think -- which is the reason we made these assignments -- that if the strategy for improving reading, math, and science highest for most kids is best served by the way in which we have approached it, that is certainly a totally reasonable question and one that we've wrestled with ourselves. But in the end, to leverage the skill of the 12,300 teachers that are in the classroom through, for example, those individuals is -- in fact, the dramatic results we've achieved 2424 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. demonstrate the wisdom of the decision.
You've already given me answer on the number of teachers that are actually on special assignment of the -- we 6 didn't get an exact number. You said it was maybe 7 a couple hundred but -- 8
Thank you very 11 much. Now I'd like to go for a moment to the 12 issue of --
Please, before you go any further, I've heard two different figures -- 12,300, and 12,500. Which is it? Is it 12,500 or --
I'm sorry. Now I'm confused. There's 12,300 teachers in the classroom?
How many people titled as "teachers" do we have? 2425 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST.
Okay, all right. 20 Now I'm back on. 21 Do I have any time left? 22
I'm sorry, I 23 just wanted to get the figure straightened because 24 I heard two different figures, and I didn't know 25 if -- 2426 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST.
The performance index issue. My understanding is that attendance of teachers is part and parcel of the issue of how we rate the performance of an individual school.
If a teacher is out for pregnancy leave, for example, or some long-term illness, is the school penalized, or is that viewed the same way as if a person is just simply absentee?
Yes. Because we want to focus on the overall attendance of the school. As I said yesterday, this is not about penalizing that individual; there's another set of things going on there. But to separate out and to make individual judgments about individual teachers and 2427 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. how long they should be out and shouldn't be out is not the function of the attendance piece of the performance index; it is instead to identify for the school in an overall way the issue of how many teachers they have in front of their pupils how many days of the year. And we thought that if you start down the pike of deciding, Well, people with this kind of disease don't get counted but people with that kind of disease do, and you only get this many days for a heart attack but you get that many days for a broken arm, is a quagmire without end.
Even as it relates to the issue of pregnancy, which seems to be something that even the federal, State, and local governments have all acknowledged that it's something that's -- I mean, it's certainly not extraordinary, it's very ordinary, but it's certainly something we like to encourage and help and treat women fairly in this regard. My concern is if the school happens to have a large number of young teachers and they procreate, does the school wind up in trouble?
No, I don't think -- 2428 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. this isn't about the school winding up in trouble; it's about having teachers in front of kids on a consistent, stable basis, which is, you know, the business of the school. And this is trying to cast a very strong light on what is a very serious problem here, and that is the excessive absenteeism, in fact, of staff in Philadelphia. And, happily, the policies that we've pursued have had their intended effect by increasing the attendance of staff.
Thank you, Madam Chair. I'd like to come back but I think I've gone. . .
Thank you, Madam President. Mr. Hornbeck, I have some questions about charter schools. The more I think about them, the more I hear about them, the more difficulty I have in understanding them. First, they're part of the public school system; is that right?
No. They are public 2429 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. school, but they are not a part of the School District of Philadelphia.
Could you tell me in what way they're not? What's the separation?
Well, I guess you would say they are not part of the School District of Philadelphia in any way.
They are not part of the School District of Philadelphia. The State, in fact, the law provides that they should be treated, in effect, as a separate school district, each one. For example, when they get their Title I money, they get their Title I money as a separate school district.
Do they get that Title 1 money through the Philadelphia School District?
They do not; they get it from the State in the same way we get our money from the State. They're separate creatures. There are only two roles, in effect, that the School District plays vis-a-vis the charter schools, although it takes a huge amount 2430 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. of time and a huge number of dollars to do it. One is, we have the responsibility of approving or disapproving a charter in the first instance. And secondly, whenever a charter is proved, we have the responsibility of sending them money. And then four years later, we will have, though we've not reached that in any instance yet --
And the money you send them does not include the Title I money.
The money we send does not include the Title I money, that's correct. The State sends them the Title I money.
When you -- I think it was -- perhaps it was Mr. Alston's statement that said that the cost currently is $40 million a year to the School District. Are you including the Title I money?
Would the School District of Philadelphia have gotten that Title I money if there had not been a charter school? Does the check that goes to that charter school --
Yes -- 2431 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. (Dr. Hornbeck confers off mike with staff members.)
It comes off the top at the -- first of all, let me say that the $40 million is not current, the $40 million is for the '99-2000 school year. Currently, the number is, in this school year, about $13 million. It will grow by $27 million in the next fiscal year. The $40 million does not include the Title 1 money, and we would have gotten some of that Title I money if the kids had stayed in the Philadelphia School District.
Because it comes off the top of the State allocation. And so, in a sense, we get reduced as part of the whole in that process. For a while, we were afraid that, in fact, the allocation to the charter school was simply going to come out of our share. And because the State law provides, in effect, that these schools are school districts, it doesn't come out of just our share, it comes out of 2432 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. everybody's share. So that if those kids were back in our school district, then, in effect, we would get it all, and other people wouldn't lose what they presently lose across the State as a consequence of payments to charter schools -- not just ours but to all of them across the State.
-- is that any different from the requirement for the teachers in the Philadelphia Public School District?
Yes. The charter schools are required to have 75 percent of their teachers be certified; we are required to have all of our teachers certified.
Is that 75 percent for charter schools just a blanket 75 percent?
Who supervises, or 2433 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. is there no supervision of the way those teachers teach? Is it the School District's responsibility?
No, we -- no, the supervisory responsibility is the responsibility of the head of the charter school, whoever that is, the equivalent of a principal or a head master. And the only supervisory responsibility -- I mean, in a sense, we have no supervisory responsibility 'cause that sort of connotes a day-to-day kind of thing. But we do have the responsibility of, for example, tracking enrollment because enrollment drives payment. And so there's a kind of monitoring function.
Other than to have examined the proposed curriculum prior to the charter being granted, there is no ongoing supervisory responsibility of the School District to oversee curriculum or day-to-day practice.
Can that curriculum be changed as the charter school proceeds? Is 2434 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. there any --
Certainly as a practical matter, it could be, because we have, and under the law, should not have any kind of continuing day-to-day oversight that way. If there were some sort of, you know, radical change in it of some kind and it were reported to the School District, I suppose the case could be made for our examining whether the conditions under which the charter was granted had been so radically, utterly, dramatically changed that there should be some kind of an intervention. But the State law contemplates a -- the State law contemplates a school that is unfettered of all -- I mean, it's supposed to be a separate thing out there that runs by itself, has maximum flexibility, doesn't have contractual obligations unless they decide to have them, etc., etc.
Well, it sounds to me that while it carries the title of a "public school," it is in fact a private school. I just have this great problem differentiating a charter school from a private 2435 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. school. And I keep hearing it's part of the public school system, but I don't see where it is part of the public school system except that 75 percent of its teachers have to be certified. But that may be true also in the private schools.
Well, the color of money is green, whether you designate it "public" or otherwise. It doesn't -- you know, the money does not designate the nature of the school system.
The only other piece, Councilman Cohen -- and I'm not holding a brief now for this, I'm just giving you information.
The only other place that would clearly separate the public charter school from the private school rests in a sense in the conditions on the basis of which a charter is issued and then reissued. And two come to mind. One is our insistence that a charter school not contribute to segregation or re-segregation in illegal ways around race.
It's open to 2436 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. everyone.
And secondly, this requirement that we imposed which requires the use of the SAT-9 as a measurement tool to determine the --
The same test that we use in the public schools, they must use it as a way to provide some crossover comparative data for parents and others. And those factors would play a role, then, in the reexamination of the charter status at the end of four years; and private schools, of course, don't require periodic rechartering, if you will. So there are those -- on the other hand, it is absolutely true that they, by and large, as a concept, operate independently of oversight by any local school district.
Well, I can understand the desire of parents interested in the education of their children to have called a 2437 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. charter school, called a private school, called a parochial school, maybe possibly called a public school under certain circumstances. Certain public schools, I think, are sought after more than any other schools in the City.
And I understand that. What concerns me is, I see down the road just lots and lots of charter schools and the constant shrinking of that public school core, that body that I know as the public school system. And among the many concerns I have were that to happen and the way this is growing by leaps and bounds makes this seem like not a wild concern of mine. But a realistic concern is that parents who tend to want to pick the school of their children are the parents that historically have been most concerned about school systems. And as you develop charter schools, you are removing from the other schools this body of parents who are tremendously interested in the education of their kids, but also they get interested in the education of all children. 2438 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. And I'm just very fearful of what's happening to the body of public school -- of the regular public schools as I know them going to consist of children's whose parents don't have an interest, for some reason or another -- maybe they can't have an interest because they're not well enough physically or maybe they're so tied up trying to earn enough money to survive that they can't get involved with their kids' education. This seems to me to be draining away from rather than continuing towards the development of the public school system, and that's the main concern I have because I think the most treasured aspect of democracy that exists in all of the United States is the public school system. If that goes, I think the whole basic tenet of democracy goes. I think you've got to have a basic public school system that every child can go to and get an education that develops that child for the future as a self-respecting and self-supporting citizen, able to raise a family. I think if we lose that, we lose the most basic element of democracy. That doesn't exclude having private 2439 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. schools and parochial schools; they also serve a purpose, but they serve their purpose as additions to a basic public school system which serves everybody and which is guaranteed to everybody in this country, that they're entitled as a matter of right to get this kind of education from their school system. And I just don't really see much difference between a charter school and a private school except that the public money is going into the charter school and apparently being taken away from the money for public schools. Could I ask you on the finances -- just use that 40 million, I understand your corrections and that it will go higher, but using that 40 million, was that a gross or a net figure?
In other words, let me ask you, as a result of the growth of the numbers of charter schools, are you able to hire fewer teachers, fewer other staff? Tell me how that works so I'll know whether the alleged $40 million is a gross figure, meaning the charter schools are getting $40 million of public money, 2440 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. or is it what nets out after you deduct whatever savings come to the public school system as a result of their being charter schools?
It's a net figure. And let me illustrate from a conversation that Councilman Kenney and we had yesterday. If it were the case that we were able to reduce staff, teachers by an amount equal to our projected charter school enrollment, we would be able to reduce staff by something in the neighborhood of 130 or 40 teachers. But what we know is that charter school students don't leave in neat clumps of 30 each; and, therefore, we can't reduce staff by that total amount. And we estimate in the issue that we were discussing yesterday that we can only reduce it by around 75 or 80. That is to say we're still going to need about -- I think the number we used yesterday was 57, I think, on one of the pages. So that it's -- that's the staff reduction piece of it. In addition to that, someone asked yesterday also about, Don't we get any money from the State? And we get about $700,000, roughly. 2441 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. And that's for the payment around non-public school kids that go to charters but for whom we now have to pay. And last year, when they in the non-public school, of course, we didn't pay anything. But if you take all those things together, the net projected cost of the charter schools approved for next year is about $40 million. To put it another way, yesterday we told you that we have about $94.5 million worth of projected expenses for which we have not identified specific sources of revenue. If we did not have charter schools, any, and if all the kids who are going to charter schools were back in our schools, we would be sitting here today talking about having about 54 million, not $94 million worth of expenditures for which we have not identified specific sources of revenue. So they contribute $40 million worth of the $94 million worth of gap or whatever you want to call that.
Councilman, any number of Council people want to be 2442 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. recognized.
So I would ask you to wait for the so on go-around.
While we're on the subject of charter schools, may I ask if we're having any difficulty in attracting teachers in the charter schools? And are most of them transferring from the public schools into the charter school?
We lose many in that way, but I really don't know 'cause we -- we wouldn't know.
I think there's somebody that may have an answer to that. (Dr. Hornbeck confers off mike with staff members.)
Right, we do not know. There is difficulty in finding people, but Miss Adler tells me that over the two years in the now 13 charter schools that are open, that we've lost about 20 teachers out of the School District.
How many 2443 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. teachers? You wouldn't know how many teachers they have in the charter schools? I'm just 4 curious to know if they're having difficulty in 5 attracting teachers as we are. 6
Does anybody know about 7 how many teachers they have in the. . . 8 (Dr. Hornbeck confers off mike with 9 staff members.) 10
We could get last year's 11 data, which would basically be four schools. At 12 the end of this year, we could add the others. Of 13 course, they don't have the various -- the three big issues that I talked about yesterday as being things that the people we survey inhibit coming to us, two of those three don't apply to charter schools. And the third one.
Well, residency requirements don't apply to charter schools, and the contract doesn't so the seniority stuff doesn't. The third one was --
But a teacher leaving the public school system going to a 2444 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. charter school, would they lose most of their benefits? They don't get the same benefits or do they? I don't know; I'm asking the question.
The State law provides that the benefits are the same, and it provides that they have a right of return for -- how many years?
So their pension and their benefits are not in question.
The pension continues while they're in the same pension plan with the charter schools.
Now, they do not necessarily get the same pay; they might get more or they might get less. I mean, they don't have a contract. There is no union at the charter school 2445 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. unless the teachers in the given charter school decide to have a union, and they may do that. So the -- I'm just simply saying that the inhibitions that the people who turn us down have identified are not the same for the charter schools.
I would be very curious to know how many of the teachers, A, live outside of the City that are working in the charter schools, how many of them have transferred from the public school, and how many certified teachers are actually teaching in the charter schools? I think that's information that I would like to see.
And I'd like to ask how many students in the public school system have left to go into the charter schools?
We can give you that, we can give you the teachers that have left. I think we will be unable to give you how many are residents because we have -- 2446 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST.
Of the teachers, 'cause we have no jurisdiction over these schools. You might be able --
So we would have to contact each of the charter schools?
Thank you. On that one issue, though, either Madam Chair or Dr. Hornbeck, you said there is no union at the charter school, but if the public school teacher who was teaching at a regular public school one year goes to the charter school the next year, can they still be a member -- and I assume they were -- of the PFT? If they were in the PFT last year, are they still potentially a dues-paying member of the PFT this year at the charter schools?
I'm told that they are not. Whether the PFT bylaws prohibits them from paying union dues or not. . .
Okay, I understand. But also in response to Councilwoman Verna's question, you must -- maybe you don't. Do the charter schools have to tell you who their teachers are and provide any information on them?
Yes. Jackie Sparkman, General Counsel. We ask for each start-up charter school before they start the first day: Who are your teachers and what are they certified in? That's just to assure that they have the 75 percent requirement.
You mean, they just tell you that back over the phone, do they send you a form, do they --
-- or is there a certification for -- 2448 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST.
We have created a form that gives us that information on it. And by the way, it's 75 percent professional staff. "Professional staff" is a broader definition than "teachers." That would include the school nurse, it includes the administrator.
I understand that. But I'm still trying to get to the information request that Councilwoman Verna made. If you were getting that kind of information on the teachers, maybe the form doesn't have, you know, address --
Okay. And I guess we'd have to go back -- the alternative route is to ask each charter for a list by zip code, home address of their teacher population, 'cause you're saying that you don't necessarily have it.
The only information we 2449 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. have is information that we have to have in order to know that they are --
Could your inquiry include what happens if a teacher -- how about if a new teacher's coming in, does the new teacher join the pension plan of the -- that's available? Say it's a teacher that's never taught before but certified or non-certified, are they all in the pension plan, the same pension plan as the teachers in the public school system?
And if you would speak right into the mike, pull it closer to you, please.
Is that better? 2450 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST.
The charter school law requirement, so far as reciprocity of benefits, is that charter schools have to offer their staff the same health benefits as teachers in the School District get. They don't have to provide the same retirement benefits; they can provide comparable benefits. So if the charter school elects to establish its own pension plan, or if the teacher who goes to work for a charter school is perhaps married to a person who's in a different pension plan, the charter school has alternatives. It can make the same benefits available; they don't have to.
If they're making the same benefits available, does that mean the charter school has the power to negotiate to become part of that same pension plan, the State pension plan?
You're 2451 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. welcome. The Chair recognizes Councilwoman Miller. Is this regarding the charter schools?
Yes. Thank you, Madam Chair. Does the State Department of Education develop a list of competencies that curriculums are designed around statewide?
The State Board of Education, on the recommendation of the Secretary, has adopted about three or four five months ago a set of standards in the various subject areas. And I don't know that they have specific curriculum beyond that. I think that they are just the standards.
So if the charter receives public monies, they would have to adhere to those standards?
Actually, at this point, there is not much by way of requirement that the State imposes on anybody, school districts or charter schools. They are thinking about, they are talking about, they are moving toward some sort of a requirement of those things related to 2452 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. graduation and so on. But at this point, there's -- the only -- the only requirement that I know of an academic character on the charter schools is the one that we've imposed of having to take the same test in reading, math, and science. And that's not a requirement around what the kids have to do; it is a requirement around the world knowing how they're doing.
Right, okay. I was just wondering 'cause it appears that people are wanting to open charter schools, but this feels like that there's really no specific structure, other than the SAT-9, just in terms of outcome.
That is correct. And I think that some of the concerns that have been expressed here, including Councilman Cohen's, are right on target. And let me only add to those that one of my biggest fears is not only -- and this is clearly related a point that Councilman Cohen made. It's not just the parents who, once they have their child in a charter school, will sort of 2453 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. drain away their interest in schooling and in the fabric of democracy and so on, but one of the things that I worry about is some of the policy-makers and some of the elected officials having successfully passed charter schools -- and this is also a piece of my fear vis-a-vis vouchers -- is that they will actually think they've done something for public education by doing these things. Whereas in fact, and particularly as it is playing out and being implemented, that they are simply leaving 190, 200,000 -- in our case 200 and roughly 8 thousand kids next year in the same situation they used to be in. And they -- lots of folks go on television and speak to the newspapers and say, Look what we've done for the education of our children. And in the larger framework, it's frankly not much. I keep hoping that people who are charter school enthusiasts will step forward and be as vigorous in their advocacy for the public education of the 208,000 kids as they are in their advocacy of the 7,000 kids, but we're not getting much of that yet from the advocates of charter 2454 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. schools.
Dr. Hornbeck, can we receive a list of the charter schools, please?
Thank you. Is Councilman Ortiz in the room? Since he's not here, the Chair recognizes Councilman DiCicco.
I was listening to your testimony from my office yesterday for the most part. I think there were three -- the little schools.
Was the Adaire School one of the three I heard mentioned? There might be -- the PA system's really difficult to hear. There was one in design -- or two in 2455 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. design, I think I overheard someone say.
And I couldn't make out if it was Adaire or not; it didn't come across clear enough.
Good morning. I'm Tom McGlenchy. The three additional Little Schoolhouses are the Lamberton, the A.B. Day School, which is probably the one that --
Which is probably the one that came across almost like "Adaire" on the PA system, so it's not Adaire.
Where are we with the Adaire School in the design stage, or what have you of the --
Let me ask Mr. Skirski to respond to that. (Ted Skirski comes forward.)
Councilman, did you hear what the cost of each of the Little Schoolhouses is? 2456 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST.
Good morning. Ted Skirski, Office of Design and Construction for the School District. I'm sorry, didn't hear the full question.
Was the Adaire School -- and I think that question's been answered already -- one of the little schools that was being contemplated for the upcoming school year or in the near future?
I believe a request has been made for that from the principal. Is that --
I'm not aware. If it was, it was not made to me. We'll find out from the planning office, though, if it went through.
'Cause I attended a school parent-teacher meeting several months ago, and 3 or 400 people in the audience, that was 2457 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. the request of the majority of the people, that a little school be created there, and I just was wondering where we are in the process. But if you're telling me that you don't have that in the pipeline, then I'd appreciate it if you could get in touch with me at my office. I'd like to discuss that.
Superintendent Hornbeck, I've received a couple of calls from teachers in the system who have asked if I had any information about a proposal that may be forthcoming from the District regarding extending the waivers for residency for teachers. I don't know if this is just a rumor or not. Do you have any knowledge of that? Are you contemplating any requests to extend the waivers? And someone suggested it may be in the area of about three years for the waivers.
Well, what we talked about several times yesterday was the extreme problem we have with vacancies in the School District. That is to say, we had 300 to start the school year after hiring 800 people and are having 2458 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. a daily vacancy rate of roughly 150 since November 1st, with about 125 vacancies even today, and that we have accelerated significantly recruitment activities and strategies for bringing more people in. And a piece of that has been surveying the people who have turned us down to ask them why they are refusing to come and teach in Philadelphia, and the three major reasons are: residency, flexibility in the selection of schools, and financial factors like wages. And what we talked about yesterday is the need to have everything on the table as a way to put a teacher in front of kids, and I would imagine that would include residency. But there is no explicit plan at the moment to make any particular decision about residency. Indeed, I said yesterday in testimony that I would hope that we might be able to put together a group of Council people and the business community and the School District to examine everything from subsidized mortgages to other interesting initiatives that you or other members of Council might have about this. 2459 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. But we have today, in the 259 schools, roughly 3750 kids sitting there without a teacher. And to understate it somewhat, that's not a good situation. And so I think that those of us in policy-making positions, whether at Council or at the School District, have a major challenge of filling those holes.
I appreciate that, and I would like, to the request of the Council President, to be a part of that group that you put together because I've been very active in tax incentives and tax initiatives in trying to make Philadelphia a much more appealing place for people to move to, and I'd like to be a part of that committee. In the area of teachers, how many more classroom teachers do you have this year as opposed to last year? Is there a way of identifying that? And another question is, do I not understand that there's some -- is there an early-out being considered for teachers? And is that a direct result of the School District or is that something that was done through negotiations 2460 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. with the union?
Neither one. The State law is imposing it upon us. And as we said yesterday in testimony, we would very much like to keep that window open. In fact, if we don't keep that window open, we will likely have several hundred more vacancies that we would have otherwise because we have 59 principals and 1001 teachers who are eligible for 30-and-out. And Mr. Santilli will look for that number.
I didn't understand the Superintendent's answer. What do you mean by "keeping the window open"?
Well, the State law, at the moment, absent a change, will close a window that permits you to have 30 years and retire without penalty. And there are people -- there are 1001 teachers and 59 principals who have 30 years of service at the end of this year and who are eligible to retire under the 30-year provision but would not be eligible to retire under the 30 years and age 62 or 65 or whatever it is. And so if that window stays open, which 2461 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. would take a positive act of the legislature, if that window remains open, then some of these, you know, 55-year-old, 30-year veterans will say, Oh, I'll work another year. Or I'll work two more yeast. But if it goes ahead and closes, then more than a few of those people are going to say, Well, gosh, I would have worked another year or two, but I don't want to work till I'm 62, and so I'm going to take my retirement and go. And that will create more vacancies for us.
Has the implementation of cluster leaders had any impact on the number of teachers that are in classrooms? Has that caused some of that 300 or so vacancies to occur because you're moving from teacher status to cluster-leader status?
One point. This is a question I asked earlier today. We've been told that there are 200 or so teachers on special 2462 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. assignment, performing other types of facilitator roles. It seems obvious to me that if you had 200 more teachers in classrooms, you would have less of a shortage. But the response was that they are doing a higher good according to the School District administration by doing what they're doing. But I think it's clear numbers -- you can count -- that 200 less teachers are 200 less teachers, they're not in the classroom.
Right. And I was listening to your testimony, but I guess that question was asked when I was en route from my office to here, so I apologize for repeating the question. Can you tell me the number of personnel that are in the Chief Counsel's Office, the Chief of Staff's Office and Communications, the total number? I see the Chief of Staff but I just, for some reason, can't find Chief Counsel and Communications.
The Chief Counsel would be under Board and Executive Management. It's Section 17. 2463 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST.
Okay. And there are a couple follow-up questions to that. When we get to the number --
Communications, Chief of Staff, and Chief Counsel. And have the number of personnel in any of those departments increased over the last year? And how many Board members and/or people in the departments I mentioned have Board-issued cars and/or drivers?
There are in 1990 -- in Fiscal Year 1998, there were 11,274.7 teachers.
There were 11,274.7 -- this is on of A-7, if you'd like, in your budget book.
Okay. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: I didn't hear what question you're answering.
Oh, I'm answering how many teachers are in the classroom in the Operating Budget. And the estimate for the current year is 11,206. The estimate for Fiscal 2464 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. Year 2000 is 11,287.
Yes, 287. If I could point you to -01 in the large budget book.
Okay. The Superintendent's Office, School Board Members, General Counsel, Communications, and Government Relations are all in this particular program. You can see at the bottom that there are 57 people, and they're combined, and it has remained the same from '98 through the proposed budget in 2000.
The Chief of Staff's office is the next section, Number 18.
And there were 29 in Fiscal Year 1998, there are 34 now, and there will be 33 in the year 2000.
Okay. My other question had to do with vehicles, I believe.
I believe that they're 2465 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. getting an answer for you on that now.
The number of administrators who have vehicle assignments from two years ago was approximately 30; that number is down to now. And the number of overall 9 vehicles that are assigned to administrative staff 10 and Board members is approximately 10. Vehicles 11 are used as pool vehicles for the Board members as 12 well as administrative staff within the 13 Administration Building and the 22nd and Arch 14 Street facility. 15 So the numbers are down from previous 16 years, from about 30 to about 17, including the 17 Board and the administrative pool vehicles.
Very good, glad to hear it. Thank you. I have another question for the Superintendent. From time to time, we've heard comments from you as to the reduction in administrative positions during your term. What specific positions have been eliminated, if any?
We can provide that to 2466 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. you. There are several hundred, and so I can't pull them off the top of my head.
If you would make them available to the Chair, I'd appreciate it.
Thank you. I have no further questions at this time, Madam Chair.
Thank you. I'd like to get another question in now and then, today. Superintendent Hornbeck, you said that any given day you could have possibly 150 shortage of teachers. Don't you find it difficult getting substitute teachers?
Are you having difficulty in getting substitute teachers?
Yes. We have, if my memory serves me correctly, 1800 people who are signed up to be substitutes roughly now, and that's down from about 2500 a couple a years ago. And even among the 1800, we are not always able to get enough substitutes to cover the absentees that day because many of those substitutes will go and 2467 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. substitute in the suburbs first 'cause they get more money, or they will have made other plans for the day and won't come. But the pool itself is down.
Well, what qualifications does the substitute have to have?
Ms. Adler, would you come up and respond to the President's question on that. And are my numbers about right?
Right, yes. Marge Adler, here. Substitutes must be college graduates and certified, either permanently certified or they're on an emergency certification.
Well, why would they want to be substitutes instead of teachers?
Well, some people prefer that. They may not have passed all the examinations they have to for either the State or 2468 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. for our requirements; they may be in the process of doing that. And then there are some people that like being substitutes.
Is there any way of enticing some of the 1800 to become teachers in the system?
I think we do have some that do join the ranks of teachers every year. That's probably a piece of the reason why we have fewer substitutes on the rolls this year, but not all of it.
Okay, thank you. The Chair recognizes Councilman Kenney.
Thank you. Madam President. Just one comment as a result of Councilman Cohen's observation about the public 2469 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. school system and some of the issues relative to charters and vouchers and those concerns. He said that one of the most treasured aspects of democracy is the public school system, and I would have to tend to agree with him there. But also one of the most treasured aspects of democracy is the freedom to choose what's best for one's children. And that somehow, the monopoly of public education and trying to force people into a system that they don't feel comfortable with has created other democratic choices of relocation and movement from the system, in search of -- and I know my friends who have moved out of City have moved not because of the taxes, not because of race, not because of crime, but because they cannot find a school system that they're comfortable with for their children. And while I recognize the needs that are facing the public schools and its special problems that it faces, I think we can't also forget about the need for parents to do what's right for their kids now. And I think that the result -- charters have resulted in that, the 2470 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. voucher argument has resulted because people have been forced by the government to participate in a monopolistic system that they are now rejecting. So that's just my -- and I'm sure on the next round, you can comment on that. I'm curious as to how many children have come into the public school system from the private and parochial system over the last four, five, six years. And do we have those numbers, do we do that kind of interview?
I think we can get that information. As the Archdiocesan schools have closed particularly, we have gotten a significant increase in youngsters coming into the system.
And that significant increase would strain your existing resources even more than if we didn't have them in the system.
So in some ways, stabilizing or making -- allowing parents to make those choice, that may allow them -- not create 2471 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. the necessity for them to enter the public school system in the long run; it would potentially save us money.
Well, let me make this observation, which goes to the observation I made a moment ago in response to Councilman Cohen. There are, for example, as I understand it, about 25,000 vacant seats in the Archdiocesan schools at the present time, and an offer has been made every once in a while for us to take advantage of those 25,000. And if we did, and assuming an absolute arithmetic fit, that would only leave 190,000 kids for us. Nobody ever makes any recommendations about what we do with 190,000. My point is that too many who are in favor of providing those choices, as far as I can tell, rarely make recommendations about what will be good for the 190,000, but paint the picture of the kids moving as being what we ought to do about education generally. And what I fear is that then maybe 25,000 kids get taken care of someplace, but I don't see much apparent concern for the other 190,000 kids.
Isn't there a 2472 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. natural benefit to reducing the class sizes in our schools by 22,000 students? Does it not benefit our own existing public school students by having less children in the class, less time for teachers?
Well, I've heard nobody suggest that we divest ourselves of the 25,000 and keep all the teachers.
I've always heard instead that we get rid of the kids and we get rid of the teachers and we reduce costs.
Not under Governor Ridge's voucher program. As I understand it, the School District would be held harmless over the next five years at current funding levels, no 18 matter how many children they lost.
It's even conceivable to me, as a way to get the bill passed, that one do a hold-harmless for five years.
Well, but we -- 2473 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST.
People are out of office and so it's not their concern anymore. The issue is building a public school system that seems to me that serves all the kids. And as I said with the charter schools, I just wish somebody would come and say, Let's have charter schools for the 7,000 and let's do for the other 208,000 what we need to do for them to read and do math and do science. Nobody, again, has been friendlier to charter schools than we at a tune of $40 million for next year.
Well, I think you've been friendly to charter schools based on the requirement of the State law, not necessary an attitude that --
Attitudinally, I mean, the transportation issue and mosaic alone was not exactly a pleasant circumstance.
Well, going back to our conversation about that yesterday, the fact is that the State law also dictates how we treat transportation. So if the law needs to be 2474 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. changed, we ought to change the law, and I've got some other suggestions for it as well.
Okay. The question that Councilman DiCicco -- in response to his question -- and I was on the phone at the time -- was there 57 people in the Communications Office? (Unidentified person responds inaudibly off mike.)
That was the entire Executive and Board Management Program, which includes the Superintendent's Office.
There are nine people in the Communications Office. 2475 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST.
Okay, thank you. I just misheard the answer and I wanted to make sure I cleared it. The Summer School Program that's being contemplated will set up separate summer 7 schools based on the clusters for 3rd, 7th, and 8 9th grade? 9
And those 15 individual cluster summer schools will all staffed 16 with a principal and staff and teachers that are 17 required to handle these children for the summer 18 period? 19
Do we have any idea 21 how many children are going to be required to go 22 to summer school from each of those clusters? And do we need 22 separate schools with 22 administrative staffs?
Let me ask. Catherine, 2476 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. why don't you respond, why don't want you respond to the summer program question. (Catherine Connor comes forward.)
I'm Catherine Connor, with the School District. We are expecting somewhere in the range of 12,000 students to be attending summer school. And since substantial proportions of these are going to be 3rd-graders and 7th-graders, the issue of distance is really significant. And, in fact, when we talked about with the cluster leaders, a number of them are concerned about offering only one program within their cluster and are trying to find ways to squeeze funds out of wherever else they can in order to be able to offer two of them. So for me, the question is not, Is 18 too many? It's, Is 22 enough? 19
I'm confused about 20 offering programs. What would be the difference 21 in two different programs? Why would there be a 22 need for two programs in one --
Just so the kids can get there. Again, as with charter students, we don't bus 'em. 2477 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST.
No, my question is, you're telling me that the cluster leaders have said that they don't even think that the may be 5 enough, that they need to offer an additional 6 program. What is -- 7
To have two different 8 locations, two sites. So that it isn't too far 9 for a 3rd-grader to get there. 10
Okay. But do we 11 have projections on how many children from each 12 cluster? You said 12,000 total? But how many 13 from each cluster do we expect? 14 And would we have a situation where you 15 might have, you know, 50 kids in one and 250 kids 16 in another? 17
I expect that there will 18 be differences from cluster to cluster, partly 19 based on the enrollment at the cluster. We don't 20 think any cluster is going to be as small as 350 21 students. 22
-- minimum numbers. 2478 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST.
Thank you. The Chair recognizes Councilwoman Blackwell.
Thank you, Madam President. How many more charter schools do we expect next year? We'll go from to -- how many 12 is it, 29 or something like that? 13
It will be 25 -- or is it 25 altogether, or is it 27 with the 2 that didn't go this year?
I think it was 27. (Dr. Hornbeck confers off mike with staff members.)
Yeah, there are 27 approved, but there are 2 that we don't yet know whether they're going to open in September, of those 27. .
Again on this issue of transportation. We've been reporting 2479 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. back to charter schools that it is in the Commonwealth legislation, and their reply is that State law mandates transportation and that it is a violation of State law for them not have to the transportation; and, in fact, that charter schools are having to spend their own monies to bus children to their school buildings. They're saying it's a State law that would mandate transportation. The same if these are, you know, public or private school, and they should be able to get the same that the other schools get.
Okay. Is it possible for students to use -- for students in charter schools to use gymnasium facilities in public schools? (Dr. Hornbeck confers off mike with staff members.)
The answer would be yes. They would have -- it would have to be worked out logistically and all of that, and they would have to pay for it. But there are ways that that could be done. But nobody's asked us for it. 2480 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST.
Okay. One last question on this go-round about monitors. Are there monitors on all buses or wherever there were attendants? Let me ask it another way.
No. They are on buses where we think that the presence of a camera would be helpful in controlling behavior.
They're not on all buses where attendants were removed? Or are they all on buses where individual attendants were removed? (Dr. Hornbeck confers off mike with staff members.)
There is. . . I guess this doesn't get out to all the kids. There is a fake camera on --
A fake camera on every de-seg. bus and there is a real camera on one of every ten of those buses. So to those children who may be watching this, you don't know which one the ten 2481 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. is. (Laughter.)
All right. Last question. Back to charters. I know some have been approved, but I assume that we're approving them earlier this year because, as you know, last year, I guess they were being approved late -- I don't know, maybe around April or May. And as you know, a lot of -- no, were they all approved early last year?
We approved them in February last year. We did last year arguably give a little bit more flexibility, which was an effort to respond to the needs of charter schools. In some ways, we learned our lesson, and so we're being much crisper in saying, you know, this is the date and that's the date and you got to have it in, and if you don't have a certificate of occupancy, etc., etc. But the timing for the original approval last year was about the same time.
You understood exactly where I'm going because so many schools, when I visited every one last year, many schools 2482 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. -- and I did -- in July, a lot of schools just had their framework up, you know, frames of buildings and were basically just rehabbing. And when they told me they'd be ready a month in July or August, of course common sense, knowing the City Hall end and all the inspections and all that has to take place and how long it really takes buildings to get done, you know. . .
I think a lot of charter-school operators are finding out when they actually when go down that pike that it's tougher to run a school than they thought it was in the first instance, and it's more than just getting up some morning and thinking, Gee, wouldn't it be fun to have my own school. And so they have faced those kinds of issues. And, in fact, we think in the long run, that our stronger stand about deadlines and what you've got to have done when will, in fact, be helpful to the charter schools because it won't allow some to sort of delude themselves into thinking they can be ready within a month or two.
Yeah, I think that was really, really one of the difficult 2483 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. things that people who were educational visionaries had to figure out how to do a whole building, take a building and put it together and design it for their needs and for their goals to have their charter schools. Madam Chair, I'll defer.
Madam Chair, could I ask a follow-up on the question of surveillance cameras?
Thank you, Madam Chair. Mr. Hornbeck, the surveillance cameras on buses, could you tell us what it would cost to have real cameras on all buses, what the additional cost would be?
Yes. One out of 2484 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. ten, I believe are real --
Each of the black boxes cost about $99, $100, and the camera could cost 5 to $700 each.. 6
So it's an 8, $900 investment between the black box and the camera per bus.
Approximately. And how many do not have cameras today?
All the new buses we're buying, we're expecting them to have black boxes on them. We probably have about half of our fleet equipped with black boxes and about one for every 10 with cameras, so I'm trying to get --
About half of our buses have the black boxes, and about one in ten have cameras.
How much would it cost for the District to provide real cameras --
Now, that's just the buses that we operate. Then there is the contractors' side, which is an equal number.
Yes. We have required them to put them on where there are problems. Where the behavioral problems are, we require them to put black boxes with the camera on there. And then they rotate the buses if there are problem routes. Some of their buses have them also.
One of the really important points of this goes back to Ms. Blackwell's question about what if a bus or school 2486 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. is having particular problems. There are about of the routes out of 4 the 1100 where we pay special attention because 5 there tends to be a recurring problem there. And 6 it's clear from behavior on, you know, 99 percent 7 of the buses that there's not a problem. But what 8 we are focussing hard on are those 10 or 11 where 9 there tends to be a problem, and there are cameras 10 on all of those buses.
I just was thinking about this as you were speaking. I'm wondering, in addition to behavioral problems that the cameras could be helpful to, I'm sure we have a lot of injury cases, liability cases that go on during the year, I would assume, with students. And would not the cameras be helpful there also?
Well, fortunately, we've not experienced many injury problems.
They haven't found out about negligence lawyers yet, huh? Okay. Too young?
Actually, Councilman, SEPTA has used them pretty extensively on their vehicles, from what I understand. 2487 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST.
Yeah, I know on the SEPTA vehicles, but I'm speaking to the School District vehicles. I was just curious if there were significant claims, and would not the investment of cameras help reduce some of those claims and, in effect, maybe even pay for the cost of the claims. I hate to get into this liability stuff with kids but --
If you laid off those bus drivers 216,000 on a one-time thing, minus whatever the maintenance is, seems to me to be a lot cheaper than paying, I assume, for insurance and for the employment of those people.
Well, our experience to date is that we don't have a problem on the vast majority; and, therefore, even -- I mean, we could always spend twice that because it would also be on the contract buses. You know, as with anything else, we can always spends $432,000 on it, but our experience has been. . . Let me also remind you that we're only basically busing kids up to the sixth grade, so these are young children. And the Councilman's probably right that they haven't been 2488 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. ambulance-chased yet. All right?
Thank you Councilman DiCicco. Superintendent Hornbeck, I have a few questions. One, can you give us a list by Council district of the schools that have after-school programs? And are those programs physically located in the school or -- and any other information you might have about a school's extended hours.
We will be glad to do that. Happily, we have continued to make some progress on that front. I know we have a partnership with the Recreation Department, for example, in which we have about 117 after-school programs -- some in our schools, most in Rec. Department facilities in that instance. And then last year, we were able to start and sustain this year about 40 additional, but we will get you which schools they are in.
Okay. Is there a notice requirement of these teachers that might 2489 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. retire in June? How much time, you know, in what time period, do they let you know?
Ms. Adler, would you set out for us what those dates are? If you will give her just a second.
The question is, what is the schedule for teachers who intend to retire to tell us that they intend to retire?
In order to retire under the 30-and-out provisions, they have between April 1st and June 30th to notify us of their intent to retire. By policy, we require a 60-day notice on either side. We don't always get it but if someone's decided to retire, there isn't much you can do about it.
Okay, because I would think that that would be helpful in planning for the upcoming school year if we knew.
Yes, it is, and we communicate that, and the union helps us in encouraging people to let us know -- but not everyone does. Most do.
Okay. And how 2490 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. are the schools selected that have the VCR and security systems? And can we also have a list of those schools by Council district? I think you said it's 41 schools that currently have either a VCR or a security system, and regarding school safety. (John McLees comes forward.)
John McLees, the School District. There's no problem at all. We can get that list to you, Councilwoman of all the schools that have the systems. In the systems, we look at overall activity, what's going on in those schools, the amount of students in the schools, and, of course, a request from the principal. And then we evaluate that and put them on a calendar and we move through the system, putting the systems in.
Okay. I just want to state that I think the idea that came out of the hearing yesterday about swiping the card is a good idea. I just wonder, in implementing it, would someone be there at the door? Because if a person didn't have a card, then they should not be 2491 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. able to enter just to deal with the issue of trespassers. But I want to state publicly that I think that's a great idea.
You're welcome. That's my only question. And the Chair now recognizes Councilman Cohen.
Councilman Kenney, I hate to interfere, but the first comment I was going to make is going to deal with the question you made. I hope that nothing in what I said indicated that I oppose any combination of other schools. I'm deeply committed to the concept, though, that public money ought to be used for public schools. /BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. system which has no financial requirements whatever for anybody to go to school and get a superb education. I agree with you that people would come back to Philadelphia if we could have a school system that operated, say, at the level -- I hope some schools don't get offended -- but, say, of Central, Masterman, Girls' High, maybe any number of others schools that exist in the City of Philadelphia. I think this kind of dialogue is very important because I think if we had such an overall public school system, the thoughts about private schools, the thought about charter schools, the thoughts about people leaving the City would evaporate, and I'd love to see much more discussion as to how we make the public schools the kind of schools that attract rather than serve as an excuse for leaving the City. I happen to think that overall, the public school system is quite a very good system. I speak personally. I went all through it. I have four children who went all through the public school system. /BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. they all got into college -- either Temple or the University of Pennsylvania. I have a bachelor of science in education preliminary to my law degree. My wife has a master of science in education. We're deeply committed to education. But the particular education that is vital to the maintenance of democratic form of government is a public school system. Now, I think it's good that we, you know, challenge the Superintendent and all the members of the staff here on the economies, but I would really like to hear much more about the curriculum, about what the school system is doing. I go into many of the school systems, often just drop in unbeknownst to anybody, sometimes nobody even knows I was in there. And I find, on the whole, the school systems seem very orderly. I love when I see bulletin boards in hallways and the hallways are clean and the bulletin boards have decorations of little drawings by youngsters. I walk through some of the halls, sometimes never even going near the principal's office. I just want to see how the school operates. /BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. public school system is a distinct asset. That doesn't mean it doesn't have a lot of problems in kitchens and bathrooms and lack of teachers. But I would like to see discussion concentrated on how we make the schools in Philadelphia an attraction to bring people back. Because I don't think a suburban school can possibly offer the kind of advantages and urban school setting can have -- with all the museums close at hand, with all the cultural events we have to begin to develop children fully. And that's why I say, sure, people should have a choice. Of course, they do, but they've got to pay for those choices, just as they do now. Isn't that the essence of democracy? If you're able to afford something, you can choose a better house, a bigger house, you know, with more garden space? If you don't, then you can't choose that. So that's the gist of my concern about the charter schools. If any direction takes away from the strength of the core public school system, I worry very much about the future of the country. /BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. opportunity to kids who grow up in poverty to develop themselves without that kind of public school system. So I didn't mean in any way to indicate that I want to restrict in any fashion whatever the choices of the people are, but if they choose it, they pay for it. But public funds are for public schools -- that's the credo I believe that should operate.
So it's not personal, but I'd like to hear all kinds of debates on how to make the public school system an attraction to bring people into Philadelphia, and that's what I'd like to hear about. Incidently, who sets the substitute's pay?
Who set's the substitute teacher pay? Is that decided by union contract, is it a State law, is it a City law?
All right, so the Board cannot make that decision? 2496 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST.
In your talk, Superintendent, in response to one of your questions, you listed as one of three deterrents -- the last one you listed to obtaining additional teachers was wages. Could you tell us what you mean? I haven't heard -- I hope it's not repetitive I don't know whether that came up yesterday afternoon or if I wasn't here. What do you mean by the wages being a deterrent?
The starting salary for Philadelphia teachers is about $3500 less than the average starting salary in the 61 surrounding school districts. And salaries as a whole in Philadelphia rank about 61st out of 62 school districts. So I was referring specifically to that in terms of wages.
You mean the wages in the Philadelphia School District rank 61st among the 62 school districts?
The 62 school districts in the five-county area, and I think we're at 61st -- worst, bad. 2497 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST.
So we're very close to the bottom of the barrel, if not at the bottom.
Well, I can see that that's a concern, but again, that's nothing that the Board can do about.
No, that has to do with, more than anything else, just money.
Now, one position I have concern about on the vehicles. I think I heard you say in response to a question either by Councilman DiCicco or Councilman Kenney that the number of vehicles available for Board members and others in some sort of group was ten. Now, it's always been my understanding, and I have some personal knowledge of it, that many of the Board members like to go out frequently visiting schools, frequently unheralded, occasionally planned in advance. I would like not to see the reduction of available automobiles to the point where it is interferes with the Board members doing what they're selected for. Board members, do they get paid? 2498 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST.
They do not get paid. And it just seems to me that economy, which pinches the toes so hard that it prevents people from doing their job is not an economy; it is part of a self-destructing system. And I would hope, if there was anything intended by questions about automobiles, to make it clear, I think the Board members and others best serve the school system by making as much time as they are able to make since they're not getting paid for the work, and they obviously, you know, have to find time to carry out other duties in order to earn a living. I would just hope that facilities remain fully available so that they can, whenever they get an opportunity, do the visiting. Because I think some of the economy begins to get like the phrase "false economy." It produces maybe dollar savings, but the cost down the line is much heavier.
Yes, the 2499 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. Chair recognizes Councilman DiCicco.
I'd just like to make a point of clarification. My question about vehicles was not specific to any one group or department in the School District; it was primarily about either Board members and/or members of the Superintendent's staff administrators, etc. I think 'cause last year, I asked a similar question and I found that some of the administrators who are not Philadelphia residents have the availability of vehicles to take home at night seven days a week to and from Philadelphia at the expense of Philadelphia taxpayers, including gas and maintenance. So that's why I was trying to find out, have we made any reductions, are we looking at a more efficient way of using the vehicles by way of either a fleet management or car pool. By no means was I attempting to limit the Board members the use of vehicles or any other member of the administration; I just was wondering if we were able to have a more efficient use of vehicles by reducing the number of vehicles and 2500 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. the manner in which those vehicles are being used and assigned. Thank you, Madam President.
Thank you very much for that clarification. Thank you, Madam President.
You're welcome. The Chair recognizes Councilman Kenney.
Thank you, Madam President. Just one additional comment. On our discussion between myself and Councilman Cohen, I want to give you a little illustration of what I've been able to see and why I think I'm on the side that I am on this issue of choice. I do a lot of work up at a parish called St. Martin de Porres, up at 24th and Lehigh. In that school, there's approximately 456, 457 children, K through 8. Better than 90 percent of those children are not Catholic, they don't come from Catholic families. And when I talk to the parents, many of them single mothers and struggling working people, I ask them why it is 2501 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. that they've chosen to pay money that they really can't afford to send their kid to a school which is a religious school but they're not Catholic. And it's that they have they don't have the confidence that they would like to have in the public school system. And they can't move, they can't afford to go to Washington Township, they can't afford to go to Delaware or Montgomery County. And they feel stuck and they feel desperate. And they believe that their children's future, unless they struggle and pay that private school tuition, their children's futures are in jeopardy. And they have a lot of strikes against them to begin with. The neighborhood they come from, you know, is poverty-stricken, there's employment problems, there's drug-addition problems in that neighborhood, there's violence problems in that neighborhood. But they believe that the struggle they make, that the sacrifice that they make to send their child to that school at their own cost is going to best give them a chance to make something better of themselves. I just think that it's fair to give 2502 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. those parents some of the tax dollars that they earn back to them so that they can make those choices for their kids. This is not am issue of wealthy people getting money that should be going to the public schools; I think this is an issue of working-poor people who have no other way out. And we all agree -- we both agree that education is probably their only way out. So I guess the question is, do we tell those parents to wait until we figure out a strategy to fix the schools for everybody, or do we give them some of their dollars back to make those choices for themselves? And I think that's where the balance is. It's not an issue of religion and it's not an issue of privilege; it's an issue of desperation for many, many of those parents. And that seems to be the only choice that they have.
The situation you talk about, I understand the problems that they have, but I think what we ought to do is get 2503 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. together with the School District here and say, Here's a very serious problem. Why is it that so many children, you know, who are not going to the parochial school for religious reasons feel they have to go? What is the problem? And let's fix it. And the problem must be something in that area. I assume most of them live within that area of the school. And why is the public school system not able to serve those youngsters? And I think that's an immediate urgent problem that we ought to spend time on fixing so that next year, the parents who really can't afford those tuitions feel they can go to a public school that meets their needs. That's what I would address to the Superintendent.
I could tell you a couple reasons they tell me why they make that choice. They make that choice because of discipline, uniform, books, materials, and a sense of security and a sense of --
Okay, I'm sorry. 2504 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. We could have this discussion probably forever, and I don't want to -- he's sitting there twiddling his thumbs, waiting for us to get done talking, so we'll continue this at another time. Thank you very much.
Thank you. Superintendent Hornbeck, I constantly talk to people that say they leave the City of Philadelphia and part of their decision is the difference -- or they use the expression "the quality of the education" in the suburbs. Could you just briefly describe, what's different about public education in Montgomery County, Chester County, Delaware County, Bucks County than Philadelphia County.
Well, there are a number of differences. The class size is significantly smaller in those counties than it is in Philadelphia. Also, a far greater percentage of those kids coming into those school districts have had the opportunity of free kindergarten programs, not 2505 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. necessarily at public expense, but have pre-kindergarten programs coming in, and thus, they don't start kindergarten or the first grade behind, and instead, they start ahead. The quality of the resources they have in the classroom is much greater. The equipment they have is much newer, the facilities are better equipped. More of the building are wired for technology. Even though we've made lots of progress on the computer front, they have more computers than we do per classroom, per kid. The students in the schools have far more opportunities after school than we have. So it's all the things that make for a setting for kids that is safe, secure, they learn, the teachers receive support, the principals receive support. And none of those things result from, in effect, somebody in the suburbs having a better idea or having a richer vision. In all of those instances that I just named, they result from money.
Are you suggesting that our teachers don't get support and our 2506 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. principals don't get support here?
Well, I'm suggest that the teachers say that when they've got to teach 33 kids and their counterparts in the suburbs only have to teach 23, that they think that that's not as much support.
Would you compare the suburban teachers' pay scale, etc., the difference between teachers that work in your system versus the teacher that works in Bucks County.
Well, at the starting salary level, it's about $3500 more. And overall, it's even more than that. We are about 61st out of 62 school districts in pay.
Are you suggesting that because they make more money, they're better teachers? 2507 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST.
No, I certainly wouldn't suggest that. I just listed a whole range of things, and one of the things that puts us at a disadvantage is clearly not being able to pay at the same rate. And there will certainly be people -- I mean, first of all, the 300 vacancies we started the year with, 125 we have today is not a question of poor quality versus good quality; it's a question of no quality versus whatever they've got out in the suburbs. And one of the reasons that we've got 125 vacancies is because, in a relative sense, we have a lousy pay scale.
Then I guess it's not fair to say that all suburbs schools are better environments because you've got schools, public schools in poor, suburbs communities that I'm sure are struggling to accomplish the goal of educating. So is it fair to say that all suburban school systems have it better than your system?
No. Likewise, we've got a lot of schools in Philadelphia -- I mean, we've 2508 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. got a lot of schools in Philadelphia that even the product is better than a lot of schools in the suburbs. And I've never said that -- maybe somebody did somewhere, but not me. I think there are some -- I think Chester, for example, we got to have -- we even have -- you know, they passed the take-over legislation in Harrisburg a couple years ago. Well, we already get to see what happens when the State takes over a school system in Chester. And goodness knows, there are schools in Chester that are in desperate straits -- in fact, on the whole, probably a larger problem than we have.
That was my point of the question, to point out that just because you cross City Line Avenue, it doesn't mean necessarily that everything is getting better in every area.
No, it's much more likely that you will be in lower class and have better books and have more after-school stuff and 2509 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. have more pre-kindergarten and have more computers. But is every school like that? No. 4
They have about $1500 on average, which is the issue that we keep bringing up about adequacy and fairness.
Thank you. The Chair recognizes Councilwoman Blackwell.
Thank you, Madam President. Certainly with regard to the comments by my colleague Councilman Kenney, may I say that his concerns are many of the same fro parents whose children opted for an option of charter schools. I think that -- let's hope in the final analysis that we will be judged by charter schools. And the whole idea of a debate of public versus private versus parochial schools is that it will make all schools better. Let's hope that happens in the final analysis. 2510 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. Back to this transportation question. Superintendent Hornbeck, I'm told that as we're talking that the manual was checked, and I will read verbatim. Act of the Commonwealth Charter Act, 7 Section 17-28 states: Students who are residents 8 of the District shall be transported under the 9 same terms and conditions as transportation is 10 provided to students attending schools of the 11 District. 12 So that means everybody gets the same 13 thing. So I'm just -- so how can students who are 14 in charter schools not get the same transportation 15 as students who are in public schools? 16
That's correct, that is 17 what the law says, and that's the law that we are 18 following, but let Miss Sparkman follow up. 19
Jackie Sparkman. 20 Charter-school students are being 21 provided transportation on the same basis that we 22 provide to our own. We do not provide transportation to the vast majority of our own students. And on the same basis that we provide transportation to our students, transportation is 2511 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. provided to charter-school students.
So those who are then special ed., in the lower grades, or fall into any other special category that public-school students do, that public transportation is provided on the exact same level to the charter schools as to the public schools.
To date, we have not had a single charter school notify us -- that I'm aware of -- that they have admitted special education students who have IEPs that require transportation. If they do that, then they will get transportation. But not a one of them has told us that they have such students.
Well, what about other schools where students -- we all know of schools where students -- and some of our, quote/unquote, better schools where students are bused because of distance requirements. These aren't special ed. students but just students who live far from the schools in elementary school. Are they not bused? I mean, students who maybe go to Masterman or -- I don't know.
Point of 2512 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. information, Madam Chair.
Miss Sparkman, can you take us through so we can get to the bottom line of this transportation issue. Can you take us through the various requirements that the School District operates under today for providing transportation? Isn't it true that one of the distinguishing criteria here between the charter schools and the rest of the public school system is that you provide transportation for neighborhood schools where students live a certain distance from the school -- is it a mile and a half? Is that the criteria?
And that the charter schools in Philadelphia, by category, are not considered neighborhood schools; isn't that true?
Okay. And so not necessarily by law but by policy, when the 2513 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. District determines that a charter school is not a neighborhood school, you therefore do not have to provide transportation to the charter-school students based on the same provisions that you provide transportation for the neighborhood school. The neighborhood school has boundaries. You consider the charter schools to essentially be citywide schools, correct?
Okay. Now, back to Councilman Blackwell's question. What are the different provisions for transportation services either for young students by age, other schools for de-seg. purposes? The Councilman made reference to some of the -- I forget the term that she may have used. I don't know whether you, for instance, provide transportation for students who go to Masterman or Lincoln or, you know, Central or any of those other schools. But can you take us through what the determination is for providing transportation to 2514 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. certain types of schools or certain age groups of students? Or who are you required to provide transportation for?
The Board's policy regarding free transportation for students encompasses primarily five groups. And in the policy, it says that we transport students whose IEP -- special education students whose IEP mandates transportation as a related service.
All right. That's any special education student going to any school in the City?
If their IEP says that they have to have transportation, you provide transportation for them.
That's for a regular public school and if the case were a charter school; is that right?
And beyond the City limits as well -- not just within the City.
We transport students in conjunction with Board policy who are enrolled in School District's desegregation program. That's grades 1 through 12, if they live one mile or more from that school.
Okay. Students who are enrolled in the District's desegregation program, we provide free transportation.
De-seg. program, grades through 12. If that school that you're attending that's part of the de-seg. program is a mile or more away from your home. 2516 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST.
All right. So if I live in West Philadelphia and I go to a school in the Northeast -- clearly more than a mile -- and I'm a de-seg. student, I get transportation.
Right. Elementary- school students get busing. And the secondary-school students, we give free tokens to.
Tokens, okay, 'cause they're old enough to go on their own.
We have transportation for overcrowded conditions. There's situations where the school cannot accommodate a student in their program, and we take them to another school, public school students. That's a part of the Board policy.
Let's say that I'm trying to go -- let's say that for my purposes --
Did you say one mile for elementary busing, and for secondary, free tokens? I know you said --
Then you said elementary-school busing, and secondary, free tokens. If it's over one mile, period?
That was -- the second one was just de-seg. It's free transportation; it could either be busing or it could be tokens for secondary.
All right. Now, 2518 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. overcrowding. Let's see, Cassidy. I think Cassidy is overcrowded. So let's say that I live in boundaries of Cassidy, but Cassidy's overcrowded and I can't go there so I have to go to Gompers.
Are there any distance requirements, or is the fact that my neighborhood school is overcrowded and I have to go somewhere else so you'll transport me whether it's a mile or two blocks.
It's a mile and a half, and we'll transport you to the other school since your school doesn't have a program.
If I'm overcrowded from the school that I would normally go to.
We transport kids for distance which is related to the charter school 2519 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. matter. Board policy calls for transportation for 1st- to 6th-graders whose home school within that school's boundaries is a mile and a half or more from their home. There's very few kids in that category very few kids, very few kids.
So my neighborhood school is Gompers or Mann or Beeber.
And based on where I live for what the boundaries are for what school I'm supposed to go to.
If I'm trying to go to my neighborhood school but somehow I live more than a mile and a half away.
To my neighborhood school because I live more than mile and a half away and I'm grades 1 through 6.
Hazardous conditions. If the State determines -- PennDOT determines that the walking route that a child takes to their school is dangerous for traffic reasons -- there's no light, there's no crossing guard, there's no 13 sidewalks -- PennDOT will declare that hazardous. And there's quite a few routes that we operate for hazardous conditions where kids cannot walk to their school, and we transport them. Grades 1 through 8. Those are the five conditions under the Board policy.
Does PennDOT look at the routes that you've determined that you would run buses on? Or do they look at a map? Or do they come out and do a physical inspection of if a child lives here and the school is over here and if there are only one or two ways to get to 2521 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. that school and they've got to, you know, go over a bridge or a dale (whatever a dale may be) or some other thing, they just decide?
Well, what happens, Councilman, is the school contacts us regarding the matter of hazardous conditions.
And we assist them in filling the form out. Essentially it identifies intersections where -- walking routes which the child must traverse to get to the school.
All right. Now, let's get to Councilwoman Blackwell's question.
Wait, could I add one 2522 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. thing to it.
There's a State law, Act 372, that was passed in 1972 that says whatever you do, whatever policy you have for your own kids you provide for the non-publics and ten miles beyond the City limits.
And that probably now kind of leads us into the charter school discussion. But before we get to charter schools, what citywide schools, what schools that have a citywide draw or jurisdiction, do any citywide schools have transportation for those students?
Central, Girls' High, Saul, a couple of them. Do they have transportation provided for students that go to those schools?
Those are high schools. 2523 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. No, Central and Girls' High, we do not provide any free transportation for them.
Do you have any citywide middle or elementary schools?.
Fitler gets free transportation because they're a school that's been designated as de-seg., desegregation.
Let's go back to the high schools. You said that there are no 14 citywide high schools that receive transportation services?
I think Lankenau gets free transportation as a result of hazardous conditions.
So, again, by way of Board policy, you consider -- since there are no citywide schools that get transportation 2524 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. service --
Your position is no 5 citywide schools get transportation services. Charter schools are considered citywide schools; therefore, a charter schools is a citywide school; therefore, it does not get transportation services. Is that the basic theory here?
Okay. And the only way for that to change is if you decided that charter schools were not citywide schools. For instance, if they were local schools; is that correct?
That is not a decision that we are free to make. Charter schools are, by law, citywide. They must draw from the entire District.
Neither we, nor charter schools are free to draw their boundaries.
We cannot and charter 2525 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. schools themselves cannot draw their boundaries to be neighborhood schools.
By law, they are required to be open to any City resident who wants to attend.
And I'm sure that since you're making that announcement today, you could, subsequent to this hearing, detail the section of the Charter School Law that provides that?
Okay. So under what circumstances, based on what the law says about transportation services, under what circumstances would you end up ever providing transportation to charter schools? If a charter school -- by what you're saying, Miss Sparkman -- by law is a citywide school, and if the Board's policy is that you don't provide transportation services to citywide schools with the exception of desegregation, hazardous conditions, and a couple of others, under what circumstance would the District ever 2526 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. provide transportation to charter schools?
To special ed. students whose IEP, their individual education plans, mandate that the child be transported.
Okay. And lastly in this area -- 'cause I kind of lost track of it through the news accounts -- what ended up happening -- I don't want to say it incorrectly -- is it mosaic?
Is that correct? What ended up happening in that situation? I lost track after about two newspapers stories. What was the final on that? That was last summer, you guys were back and forth, were getting to hold the money, the State said give it to 'em. And I just lost track of what happened.
That matter continues to be in litigation with the State providing the basic subsidy.
We are providing 2527 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. transportation and we're demanding that as that suit resolves hopefully in our favor that we be reimbursed all of our costs, including transportation.
Okay. So, again, lastly, your testimony is that by law, charter schools are citywide, the District cannot change their designation to neighborhood. If you could and if there were neighborhood schools, then they would primarily be subject to probably the mile-and-a-half criteria, and then there would be transportation. But because of this distinction between a neighborhood school and a citywide school, you do not provide transportation because they are citywide schools, and you don't provide transportation to citywide schools.
That's correct. One other thing, though. Our neighborhood schools where we do provide transportation if a kid lives more than a mile and a half away has very few kids live a mile and a half away.
Right, because there are so many schools. 2528 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST.
So if the law were not what the law is and that happened, there wouldn't be much transportation provided anyhow because the kids would live inside a mile and a half.
This really will be my last question. Dr. Hornbeck, you know that I have participated in the much-discussed selection criteria group with Board Member Ramos, and you had provided, or maybe Catherine Connor provided us with maps of many of the schools that were under discussion. And it was, for lack of a better term, kind of a dispersion map that showed the school and then where the population was drawn from for that particular school. And I was surprised to see where many students came from to go to certain schools. Could you provide the Chair, and then through the Chair for the members, the same kind of mapping for all of the charter schools so that we can get some better estimation of where the students come from that go to the charter schools? 2529 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST.
I see all the heads in the back shaking "no." That's because you don't know the kids?
Do children have to tell us when they leave us that they're going to a charter school?
And in some charter schools, most of the kids are kids, for example, who have transferred from parochial schools. I don't know about most, but large numbers of them have transferred from parochial schools into the charter schools, not from public schools into the charter schools.
Who do the charter 2530 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. schools tell who their student population is? I mean, who do they kind of report to?
I mean name, address, who your mom is, who your dad is. I mean, for every public, obviously that all gets turned over at the -- I mean, who at the end of the day, other than the governing council of the particular charter school? I mean, what governmental entity is responsible to oversee what goes on in the charter school, who the kid are, where they come from an all that?
We have that information for the first two years because for the first two years, the law provided a subsidy for kids who came from the non-public schools. That ends this year.
So we can do this dispersal thing, do you think? 2531 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST.
We may be able to do dispersal map, or whatever you call it, for those.
Okay, thank you. And thank you Madam Chair. It was a long unit. Thank you, I'm done.
The Chair recognizes Councilman Rizzo for a point of information.
Superintendent Hornbeck, with all the different forms of education -- home schools, charter schools, your schools, parochial schools -- who's the oversight? Could you just describe -- a child's born. At what point do they have to begin their education? And could you describe for me, if a parent decides never to send their child to school -- how does the process work that someone realizes that we have a child, four kids living in a house that have never been enrolled in a school?
Age 6 is now the beginning of compulsory schooling in Pennsylvania. And in Pennsylvania and in every 2532 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. other state, I think, the fundamental responsibility for schooling belongs to the Commonwealth, to the State. It's a Constitutional provision. So the ultimate authority with respect to education is the state of Pennsylvania.
Now, if there's a seven-year-old and the parents never pursued educating that child, how does the process work? What happens?
Actually, the compulsory ages of education in Pennsylvania are ages 8 to 17. Most kids do start at age 5 at kindergarten and 6, but it's absolutely compulsory at 8. And so there is no real obligation to go and look for someone until age 8, and then a number of parents do home school, and that's also allowed in Pennsylvania, but they have to register with the State. The State overall is in charge of all education in Pennsylvania.
My question is: If at age 8, a child hasn't shown up, home school, not registered, what happens? 2533 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST.
Well, we will assume we know the child exists. And that child we would likely not know. But let's assume we know the child exists.
If the child is age 7 and has never been in school, we have an 8 obligation to go against the parents and require 9 the parent to either enroll the child or submit a plan to the State for home schooling.
So you would have to physically know that a child exists. There's no 13 master list that you get that there should be -- in other words, if a young child is getting some type of assistance from the government, is that a child that you know?
No? So they could be getting assistance from the government but the school system wouldn't know they exist?
Let me make a comment about this whole transportation discussion. It strikes me as maybe a place where 2534 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. one of our coalitions might work. I mean, we're not against transportation for kids going to charter schools; we are against spending additional money of our kids to provide services to charter-school kids that our kids don't have themselves. But we talked yesterday about the $9 a week, for example, that families have to pay for tokens. It doesn't make any sense. It -- it might be a place where all of us could work together with a view to getting tokens for all public-school kids for free, including our schools, including charter schools, and you know, whomever in the course of it. What leads us to these long discussions, in fact, about this issue and about whether or not somebody is, in my judgment, in an instruction budget category for accountants and in something else is all because we're cutting these lines really tight and close on this stuff. It's another distinction between us and the suburbs -- they don't have discussions like this; they just provide all their kids transportation. So they don't have discussions about whether somebody 2535 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. who's helping their teacher teach better is an instruction person or not an instruction person. But on the transportation front, it seems to me that this might really be a great area for us, for everybody to come together and say, you know, we ought to be transporting our kids, and that's going to cost more money, and therefore. . .
Superintendent, back to my question about -- do you have any idea how many children may live in Philadelphia, that their parents have never stepped forward and educated them? Do we have any clue? It sounds to me like there really isn't a system in place to assure that a parent is educating their children, especially since you used the term "if" we know about them. I don't know how you know about them or how you can make a statement that you don't know about them.
Well, if I -- happily, I don't think it's a huge problem because most parents know that education is good for their kids and they love their kids and so they bring their kids to the public schools. 2536 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. All I'm saying is that if there should be a child someplace, then the system that would pick that occasion up, I should think, would be Social Services because I would think that in initial instance, that would be a part of a definition, for example, of neglect.
But we don't have people who go into the homes of people -- I mean, you know, we don't -- so that doesn't --
But if that conditions exists -- and I don't want to pursue that anymore -- the Social Services people would then, what, come to the School District and say, Hey, look, we have a 10-year-old that's never spent day in school? And someone in the School District would do something to reach out?
Well, it would be a partnership between Social Services and us. It would probably be the Social Services worker sort of acting as the parent that would get the kid to the school rather than the school person doing it.
The reason with all 2537 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. the different forms of education now, like home schooling, a high-school child could basically just fall between the cracks because of all the different opportunities that they have to get an education today. You said at years old, it 7 requires -- 8
Thank you. I feel better about that now. Thank you, Madam Chair.
You're welcome. Councilwoman Blackwell, do you still want to be recognized?
Yes, please, still on the transportation issue. Masterman and Lamberton, what kind of schools are they?
Are they both citywide? (Dr. Hornbeck confers off mike with staff members.)
Masterman is a citywide school. Is Lamberton citywide? 2538 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. (Dr. Hornbeck confers off mike with staff members.)
Does not Masterman bus kids? Don't they do any busing there?
You don't get free transportation at Masterman. There are kids that ride the bus but they buy tokens to get there, like we were talking about yesterday.
You mean kids who ride regular bus or a bus for those children? Does a bus go to pick them up?
We do not have yellow bus routes into the Masterman School.
My concern is almost virtually -- as I said, I visited every charter school. I found in my opinion that the principals and teachers and kids are public- school, quote/unquote, kids. And in my experience, we didn't have teachers and students who came from someplace else; they were the same neighborhood kids and teachers who wanted a chance 2539 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. to do something different and to try to get out of this whole maze and this big bureaucracy that our educational system is and to try to deal with a smaller entity and to fulfill their dreams as they saw it or someone else's mission of what public education could be. So, again, my experience is that these are public-school people who have opted to go be principals, administrators, and/or teachers and students at charter schools. My question is this. This question of transportation has been asked by virtually every charter school and we've been talking about it for a couple of days and it's been debated from the inception of charter schools. Why, if the State charter says that charter schools have to be citywide schools and that citywide schools don't get busing, how come nobody said that? How come nobody said this to all these charter school administrators who, I'm sure, many have greater qualifications than I. I mean, my background is teaching as well, but I'm sure they would have understood and would not be fighting as long and hard as they 2540 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. have if they know that transportation has never been an option for them. Why didn't somebody say it? Or how come this is not understood?
Well, I can't for sure answer the second part of that, why it's not understood. But I know that we have said it repeatedly over and over and over and over and over again.
I don't think so. I would not have asked the same question.
We've done it both orally and in writing. And, in fact, we've done several times here in the last two days.
I don't think I've heard it. Unless I'm wrong, I would venture to believe that if you polled my colleagues, they didn't hear this conversation that a charter school is a citywide school. And by definition of it being a State charter and that citywide schools don't get transportation; ergo, charter schools don't get transportation. I would venture to say nobody heard that until just. Now, I think we can kind of understand what we hear and I will bet you that these charter 2541 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. school administrators didn't hear that and we certainly didn't hear that until now.
Well, we have said it a number of times, but I'm always looking at the glass half-full. I'm grateful that it's now understood that these are citywide under the State law.
Therefore, as I said, Superintendent Hornbeck, some schools are spending their allotment for transportation when they want to spend it on education, on computers, teachers and the like. It seems to me that this is -- in your statement, you said you're not opposed to it, that it's not an anti-charter school issue for you, that this is some area that we really, really need to find some way to kind of work it out. If all people come together -- you mentioned some committee or some interested people from both sides that perhaps can get together and deal with this as an issue.
We agreed that the issue of transportation needs serious attention by Harrisburg and that this is not something that can be solved in Philadelphia. 2542 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. One of the provisions that is in the Fair Opportunities to Learn Standards is a provision that would, for example, eliminate the cost of tokens to the kids because we think that it's unfair to charge our kids to get to school. The part that I would oppose either here or in Harrisburg vigorously is the notion that charter-school kids would get services that public-school children do not get. If there's going to be a solution to this, then I think there needs to be a solution to the transportation dilemma that faces both public-school children and charter-school children, not one that is again a special pleading solution for the case of the 7,000 kids in charter schools at a cost to the 208,000 kids in the Philadelphia School District.
I think we've heard you talk about the cost of tokens, and I agree, I agree that our children should not have to pay for public education, but I've heard no 23 other complaints from the School District about transportation as a problem. Certainly, when we advocate, we advocate for all, that's our 2543 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. responsibility, our elected responsibility. But we've heard no other complaints from the School District. It's generally been tokens. And as was said yesterday and as was said before in years past, we have reached a point now where if you have a large family -- and many of our families today are large -- and if you have a family of five, every kid can't go to school when you have to buy tokens.
Who would have thought that we would live to see this year approach the millennium and have a time when all students in our country, in our city can't go to school because they can't afford to get there. That's a serious problem, and certainly we join hands in our willingness to resolve that so that we can do something. But as I said, we really, for these 7,000 kids, had no idea, nor I'm sure did their administrators. But we want to work together and would request, Madam Chair, that some of us join hands with all those who may be interested with the 2544 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. Superintendent. And if he would do his part, we can contact some folks from the State to deal with this as an issue to see if we can't come up with some resolve.
Thank you. The Chair recognizes Councilman Mariano.
Thank you, Madam President. Thank you very much. Let me just preface this with -- besides being a City Councilman, I'm the parent of a 8th-grade student at AMY 5. And you're aware of that 'cause you helped me when I took Vincent out of parochial school in 6th grade, and in 7th grade, he started at started at AMY 5. Vincent is bused. He goes to Edmonds and he gets his bus there and meets a bunch of kids that live in that neighborhood, and there's been problems with the bus, but I think we've dealt with all that. And it's basically not a School District -- I mean, it is our problem, it's the bus company, and they're trying their best. And all the welfare-to-work people should be watching this because there's jobs there 2545 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. -- $11, $12, $13 an hour for bus drivers. Now, it's not easy for people who may be getting off welfare, but it's something to get at. You know, you got to get that license, special license. But the bus company will actually reimburse you get all your licenses and everything. They're really searching to have people. But I want to tell you, as a person I never stepped -- I never stepped a foot inside a public school. As a student, I went from grade 1 to 12 to Catholic school, so I had no idea how the public school worked, had no idea -- I mean, I heard stories, you know, heard stories of the bogeyman, and it's actually a good system. But I think one of the problems are when we get here, and it's a problem with your administration, and you might not see it as a problem is, you're such a zealot for education. And if you know anything about me, I don't pull any punches. The Council President talked to me Friday about Saturday and said it's something I was having. You always know what Rick's going to say. Well, I'm going to say this, if your 2546 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. feelings are hurt, you'll get over it 'cause you're an old -- you know, you've been around -- I'm not going to say you're an old guy, but you've been around. (Laughter.)
All right, but what happens here is, you are so into this education thing -- and rightfully so because you are the guy that they picked to be here, whether we liked you or not. You're here and you're doing a swell job. But I will tell you, there is no way I would ever want your job or I would ever dream about wanting your job. (Laughter.)
Well, because it's like being a City Councilman -- you can't make everybody happy. I think one of the problems of your administration is you're a bad politician -- and 2547 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. you get so -- and you think and you know in your mind what you're doing is the right thing, but you can't understand why Councilman Ortiz or Councilman Blackwell or Councilwoman Verna or Nutter or Longstreth or Rizzo or Kenney, all of us, well, we think we're doing the right thing too. And we have that cycle every four years that they call "an election," and not that we play for elections, but as a person who never went to public school. I'm learning more about public schools than I ever wanted to learn. I mean, it isn't easy being a teacher in public schools. But one of my main concerns and before my time runs out, is I really watched when I went down there. And when Vince went there, it wasn't structured enough for Vince, and Vince is a very smart -- and amy5's a little looser than your regular public school would be, there's a little more freedom. The principal there, Miss Peacock's a great person. Dennis Dorfman, a great vice principal. He calls my house now -- I think he's just calling my house when Vince does because I'm 2548 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. a City Councilman. Well, I found out from the other parents -- which, if I was the vice principal or principal and there was a City Councilman's child in my school, I would certainly call that City Councilman just because how we could belabor your presence here longer than you already have to be, once a year. Only once a year do we get to talk to you with your undivided attention, so I'm getting my three minutes' worth, okay? (Laughter.)
Now, I find out that Dorfman and Peacock do this for everybody, so it's real hard to find the bad guy -- if there is a bad guy. So, obviously, you're the bad guy. You know, you're like John F. Kennedy at the Bay of Pigs. You may not have been responsible for what happened before you, but you're the President, you're the Superintendent, you're the guy. So when we talk about those things not on the microphone on public record, when I tell you I have a problem with something your principals may or may not be doing, perception is 2549 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. reality in my world. They, too, are zealous for education, and rightfully so. I've learned about problems at Muniz-Martine (ph.). Councilman Ortiz and I have been up there. It's so understaffed, it's a disgrace a disgrace, it's a disgrace. And we get mad when we think, Why don't these teachers want to live in our city, why do we have to make 'em, do we drop the residency requirement, what do we do? It all comes back, for me, to one thing. We've been paying a lot of attention to this charter school. I have some serious concerns about charter school. And my colleague Councilwoman Blackwell, who's the Chairman of Education Committee, we've had these conversations. And knowing how big her heart is, I know in her heart she really wants to work everything out, and that's the beauty of Councilman Blackwell. I want to work everything out too, but I come from a little different perspective -- not much different than hers. The teachers in these charter schools, they don't have to get paid the money that you 2550 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. have to pay the teachers that have contracts with PFT, correct? How do they get paid? They're not members of the Teachers Union, right?
They can get more or less. So that's an advantage to them anyhow. So eventually, we're funding your competition. I mean, if it's if cable TV or if it's education, we're funding your competition. And I know the people that go to the charter schools and the people that want to have the charter schools have the greatest intentions in the world, but eventually, just like this transportation issue, how long can you fund your competition? When is it a level playing field? I mean, are all these principals, do they go through the scrutiny that the principals have to go through it like Miss Peacock had to go through it to be the principal at AMY 5? I mean, I don't know. Is that all something we have to learn from the State? Do we need some kind of combined hearings? I just want the playing level to be 2551 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. level. It's not because I'm a union guy, and it's not because I'm a David Hornbeck fan; it's because I'm a fan of my son Vincent and all the people who have children and entrusted 'em to the Philadelphia School District. Because it's only going to get bigger -- I'm not going to say "worse" -- as the Catholic schools price themselves off the market, and they will, they will. Again, you're talking to a guy years 12 Catholic school, never foreseeing that I would have to send my children to public schools. They're pricing theirself out of the market. Hopefully, they won't. Now, if the Cardinal calls, Council President, tell him I'm not here. But I mean, is that what we're doing with this charter school? Somebody comes up with a good idea and everybody runs around? I mean, there's a charter school building for building trades that I probably could have went to if I'd have known about that then. You went a half day to North Catholic, and the other half, you went shared time to Mastbaum to learn to be a carpenter or a electrician or a sheet-metal worker. 2552 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. I mean, there's a charter school now for probably Councilman Cohen could have went to to be a labor lawyer. They have an international charter school. If you were a young person in high school, Councilman Cohen probably could be there. There's ones that Councilman Ortiz or Councilman Longstreth would have -- is there a charter school for millionaires, Councilman Longstreth? (Laughter.)
He would be there, he would be there if there was one. But is this what we're after? How do we settle this charter-school thing? I mean, I could be as fair as you could be. And, again, it's -- I'm not playing you; I just don't see -- if we're going to provide transportation for people that chose to send their kids to charter school, and they did it with great intentions, do have to provide transportation to all the people 2553 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. that Councilman Nutter was concerned about and Councilman Blackwell with the citywide schools?
Well, I think you're correct that charter schools pose a very significant challenge -- not in the sense of competition, that doesn't worry me at all, but in the sense of the level playing field. And if those who presently are the policy-makers and the elected officials on the whole are prepared to pay more attention to the health and well-being of charter schools and less attention to the health and well-being of public schools, then the vast majority of kids will be dis-served by that process. If we have in contrast, as you say, a level playing field, let the competition begin. I have no problem with that at all. It's just that we find ourselves at a disadvantages vis-a-vis the suburbs vis-a-vis, in many instances, if we begin to give special treatment to the charter schools, even the charter school.
Last thing I'll say. There's this charter school, and Councilman Ortiz is familiar with it, down at 4th and York. 2554 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. It was around before charter schools -- Community High School. And Joe Paretta (ph.), who's a neighbor of mine, was the principal there. And I've been there many times. And, you know, when charter schools first started, Joe was way ahead of the curve. And I'm sure he became a charter school -- in fact, he has, but he was doing things 15, years ago that people are starting to think 10 about doing now. 11 But this whole education dilemma, if 12 you want to call it "a dilemma," and I'm choosing 13 my words carefully is -- I just don't know where 14 it ends. I mean, we want to do well for our 15 children, of course, we want to be able for to 16 them to do well on the SAT-9s. And I have another 17 son that went to private school, he's in 12th 18 grade, and he's getting ready to go to college, so 19 I'm going through that. 20 I just don't understand where this all ends eventually.
Well, let me just very briefly suggest to you that while the notion of a variety -- private, charter, home school, etc. -- is and will continue there, the fact is that when 2555 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. all is said and done, the vast, vast, vast, vast majority of the children in Philadelphia are going to go to the Philadelphia School District. I mean, that's just a plain fact. And over the last four years, because of all the things I've otherwise described to you and the engagement of lots of partners, including City Council, the teachers and principals and parents and kids of the District are making dramatic achievement progress. And so I would argue that, one, part of where it all needs to go to is to provide the School District and teachers and principals the kinds of support they need to continue that achievement growth. And that's what, at this moment in the larger picture, is not getting much attention. It's all the little boutique stuff off to the side.
Mm-hmm, like the banking industry when that happened five, six years ago.
All those boutique banks closed, by the way, most of them. 2556 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. And my last thing is a point of information to Councilman Rizzo. Councilman, when my son turned years old two weeks ago, the day 5 before he turned 18, he got a card from the United 6 States government -- Selective Service. So they 7 knew when he was born, 18 years before, so I'm 8 sure there's somebody somewhere that knows that 9 8-year-olds and 9-year-olds are around. 10 Now, that's not something else for 11 Dr. Hornbeck to do, obviously, but there's 12 somebody that has this information. 'Cause, sure 13 enough, they before he turned 18, that thing -- it 14 was the Selective Service. 15 Thank you. Thank you. 16
Thank you. 17 The Chair recognizes Councilman Nutter. 18
Thank you, Madam Chair. Very quickly, Dr. Hornbeck, when did the first round of charter schools get approved, what year was that?
So it was for September of '97. 2557 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST.
Okay. If you would forward through the Chair, I would like to see a copy of the materials or the packages that were given to the initial applicants, the '97 round. Then I'd like to see the '98 round, then I'd like to see the latest round. And I'd like to see dated documents specific to the issue of transportation. I would like to know what the applicants were told back at that time.
We will give you that and follow-up data when we were asked for clarification.
Okay. So I'd like 2558 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. to see the materials that actually went out and what was returned. I assume they had to sign applications and send them back in and all of that?
Thank you, Madame President. I'm a bit intrigued by part of the discussion that was ongoing between Councilman Kenney and myself before. And he pointed out a school -- I didn't get the name of it -- at 24th and Lehigh. I believe he said it was a parochial school that was occupied, I think he said, by 90 or 95 percent young African-American students from a poor economic background who felt that they had no adequate public school to go to; and for non-religious reasons, picked the parochial school. I don't know the reason they picked that one in particular. But I was pretty quick in answering, 2559 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. saying I think that if such a situation exists, we've got to get a hold of the School District and say there's a problem, what can we do about it? Then I had to leave for an emergency call. And while I was walking up and down, it struck me, Well, what would the School District do about it? Because that's the way I like to and I think most Councilmembers like to deal with the problems. If a problem comes up, like the President mentioned certain schools with particular problems, I've always felt that the School District makes a very real effort to deal with problems that come to their attention. It seems to me that would be an appropriate way. What would the School District do? Are you familiar with that school? Has it been raised before, that situation?
Would you be in a position to deal with that? Would that be an appropriate way, the way I suggested to Councilman Kenney? Because I'd like to know why a cluster 2560 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. of kids in any area of the City -- but I'm very familiar with that area, 'cause it's very close to where Connie Mack Stadium is. It's --
I don't mean to interrupt you, Councilman, but think there are a number of schools throughout the City as Councilman Kenney described.
Well, that's the one he referred to in the cross discussion between him and me, so I would just like to deal with that one. I know nothing about --
Well, you said you didn't know how many there were; I'm just saying to you that there are a number of such schools throughout the City.
Well, I know there are, you know, many people that lose their gas for different reasons, but there's nothing any Councilmember can do about helping to restore the gas service or even making a decision about it unless it comes to our attention. This school has now come to my attention. I don't know about the others, but I would like to know what would we do in such a 2561 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. case? And how would the School District approach it? And if we solve that, then I'll ask Councilman Kenney what other school does he have in mind? But I'd like to see the School District develop one. If you don't have an approach that deals with that, I'd like to see that kind of approach developed.
Well, if there is a school where there is some acute problem that makes the conditions or the circumstances of that school different from the general challenges that schools are facing, then we would attempt to solve the problems of that school.
Wouldn't you say, after you heard that interchange between Councilman Kenney and myself, wouldn't it be right for the School District to call him and say, What's the name of the school? Unless you already know what it is. And we'd like meet with the parents to find out what the problem is because we think there are public schools in the area, you know, that provide a good education. If there are particular problems, we would like to deal with 2562 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. them.
Well, what I was going to say is that the schools to which that school and I think the schools to which President Verna refer, many of the parents are responding to both the reality and the perception, a history, a reputation, and even a present-day reality of our schools having the kind of conditions that the parents don't want to send their kids to. And our response to that is Children Achieving. And our response to it is, in fact, working. We are not picking out one particular school and only focussing on that school. But instead, our attention is directed toward altering those conditions that have led thousands of people to -- I mean, there are many, many -- there are 20,000 people that have left the City of Philadelphia in the last 30 years, most of whom left because of the public schools, and they all went out to the suburbs. And so lots of those suburban schools are reflecting exactly the same thing Councilman Kenney said exists at 24th and Lehigh. 2563 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. And unless or until this city gets its act together and the State gets its act together in terms of the level of education here and most kids begin to perform at a level that leads to their success in college or on the job, we're going to continue to have this sort of -- these kinds of challenges. Now, happily, we know that what we're doing is beginning to work, and we're going to continue down that process. Now, if it were the case -- and quite frankly, I'll give you an example of a school where, in some ways, it is the case. There are people in disproportionate numbers who are not going to Olney High School in the last several years because they don't think they can get the kind of education there that they want their children to have. But we have tried -- as I said yesterday, that's probably the single most difficult school situation that I think exists in Philadelphia. And we've tried a number of crisis-oriented ways of dealing with that -- to date in terms of the results, not successfully. Although, as I suggested yesterday, there are some 2564 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. signs that that is changing. But if there is an acute crisis -- 4 other schools that I mentioned yesterday who, on 5 the performance index, didn't do well. We put 6 them if a special group, we gave them special 7 support. And seven of them responded to it 8 terrifically and met their performance target, 9 four others made improvement, and two didn't. So 10 we're still in there. 11 So in places that are having a 12 particularly difficult time, we have a way of 13 identifying those schools, and we send special teams of people in to change the way they do business, we sometimes change staff. But we face in Philadelphia -- and that's what we're up to across the board, trying to create a situation where most kids go to school, feeling like they are going to learn what they need to learn to read and do math and do science well and graduate and get a good job. So there are those two kinds of approaches. There's the crisis one on the one hand, where we send special teams of people in; and then there's the "we've-got-to-get-about-this- 2565 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. business-of-improving-School-District" on the other hand. We are at work on both of those fronts.
But it seems to me, you know, in hearing you, and I agree with most of what you say, it seems to me -- 'cause I use the same thing in Council. I understood that this small exchange between the Council President and myself, we can't go solving all the problems. But when we know one exists, it always acts as a challenge to me. I'd like to at least find out all the special circumstances. Conceivably, it could be that the parents of these youngster have never had anybody from the School District that showed a real interest in their particular problem -- not the broad problems, but in their problem. I think worth it to go out and try to communicate with some of the parents, maybe some of the children. It could be a simple sort of thing that might bring about change, or it might not be. It might fit general character you're talking about. But it seems to me instead of saying that's part of the overall problem, once we know 2566 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. it exists, isn't it worth at least sending some people out to try find out what are the circumstances? Because I believe, sir, that probably there are good schools in that area that do a good job of teaching, and that he we might be able to deal with that situation.
Well, what we will do is get in touch Councilman Kenney's office and find out more information about this. Whether or not it would be appropriate to call a general meeting of parents in an Archdiocesan school to see how we could lure them back directly into the public schools or not, I'm a little nervous about that.
Well, I think you're right in watching that. But in situations which develop in real life and in our Council activities, we often have to find one person, you know, that we can talk to and begin to get a picture. I don't mean trying to alert people to leave Archdiocesan schools. I'm just saying I would look at this as maybe it's a failure of the public school system; maybe it's not. Maybe there are certain conditions having nothing to do with 2567 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. the schools that have resulted in this happening. But I would want to know why, and I just think it might be worth the while to find out. I would trust your judgment and the judgment of the School District once you got the information in whatever way you could. And I think Councilman Kenney would probably be very useful in getting information. I think it's a problem that cries out to be fixed. Maybe the fixing has to come, as you suggest, you know, in this other process of fixing everything. But maybe this school might be amenable to something that can be done quickly and effectively -- not to hurt the Archdiocesan school, I don't want to do that at all, but to show the ability of the public school system in meeting the particular needs. Thank you. That's the only thing, I just wanted to raise that for your consideration.
I never had a chance to ask a question today. Superintendent, let me ask you, what is the budget for the Able Academies? And do you 2568 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. think that the Able Academies have really been successful?
Mr. Santilli will get the budget for them. As I said yesterday, I think that the Able Academies have not met all of our expectations, that an institution needs to exist for kids to who have particularly severe 10 behavioral problems of the kind of the kids that 11 get sent to Able Academies. And for the first 12 time in the School District's history, we 13 responded to that need, but we continue to examine 14 the actual practice of Able Academies in 15 continuing to try to meet the needs of those students better. Yesterday, you asked if psychologists, for example, were available to the Able Academies, and we determined that the first of this school year that we didn't have enough psychological services available so we increased that. So it's an example of our continual reexamination of the level of support for the Able Academies in how successful we're being.
I do recall 2569 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. -- I don't know whether it was last year or the year before -- before one of the school budget hearings, I was very curious about the Able Academies. I called Councilwoman Blackwell, and we visited one of the sites. And when I questioned the teacher if they had a psychologist going into the site to talk to the children, of course, he didn't answer me at first. And when I pressed the issue, he said, Well, we have them fill out papers. I don't think that's how we address the problems of the children that were there.
Can I have the budget for the Able Academies, please?
That includes the instruction at the Able Academies and the --
How about the rental? 2570 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST.
Instruction, yes. Instruction. That's at the middle-school level.
How many teachers do you have at the six sites? 'Cause the one site that we visited, I believe there were two teachers.
There are staff there 15 altogether at the middle school, and I'll get you 16 a breakdown of which ones are there. One second. 17 There are 18 classroom teachers, 4 18 classroom assistants, and 3 counselors projected 19 for next year. 20
25, it's the same for 23 this year. There are 25 staff altogether. 24
And how much 25 are we paying for rental? 2571 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST.
I'd have to add that up by hand here, if you'll just bear with me one second.
For the six? I don't know exactly what the six facilities are.
We had six last year, I think, or the year before.
Are there any other questions from members of the committee? (No further questions.)
Is there anyone else who wishes to testify? (No response.)
Seeing none, the committee stands in recess until tomorrow, 2572 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. Wednesday, March the 3rd, at p.m. 3
Thank you. (Adjourned at 1:07 p.m.) - - - 2573 C E R T I F I C A T E I HEREBY CERTIFY that the foregoing proceedings of the Council of the City of Philadelphia of Tuesday, March 2, 1999, were reported fully and accurately by me, and that this is a correct transcript of same. RE: COUNCIL COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE BUDGET HEARINGS BILL NO. 990026, 990027, 990028 __________________________________, JOSEPHINE CARDILLO, Registered Professional Reporter