Okay, I understand. But also in response to Councilwoman Verna's question, you must -- maybe you don't. Do the charter schools have to tell you who their teachers are and provide any information on them?
Yes. Jackie Sparkman, General Counsel. We ask for each start-up charter school before they start the first day: Who are your teachers and what are they certified in? That's just to assure that they have the 75 percent requirement.
You mean, they just tell you that back over the phone, do they send you a form, do they --
-- or is there a certification for -- 2448 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST.
We have created a form that gives us that information on it. And by the way, it's 75 percent professional staff. "Professional staff" is a broader definition than "teachers." That would include the school nurse, it includes the administrator.
I understand that. But I'm still trying to get to the information request that Councilwoman Verna made. If you were getting that kind of information on the teachers, maybe the form doesn't have, you know, address --
Okay. And I guess we'd have to go back -- the alternative route is to ask each charter for a list by zip code, home address of their teacher population, 'cause you're saying that you don't necessarily have it.
The only information we 2449 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. have is information that we have to have in order to know that they are --
Could your inquiry include what happens if a teacher -- how about if a new teacher's coming in, does the new teacher join the pension plan of the -- that's available? Say it's a teacher that's never taught before but certified or non-certified, are they all in the pension plan, the same pension plan as the teachers in the public school system?
And if you would speak right into the mike, pull it closer to you, please.
Is that better? 2450 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST.
The charter school law requirement, so far as reciprocity of benefits, is that charter schools have to offer their staff the same health benefits as teachers in the School District get. They don't have to provide the same retirement benefits; they can provide comparable benefits. So if the charter school elects to establish its own pension plan, or if the teacher who goes to work for a charter school is perhaps married to a person who's in a different pension plan, the charter school has alternatives. It can make the same benefits available; they don't have to.
If they're making the same benefits available, does that mean the charter school has the power to negotiate to become part of that same pension plan, the State pension plan?
You're 2451 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. welcome. The Chair recognizes Councilwoman Miller. Is this regarding the charter schools?
Yes. Thank you, Madam Chair. Does the State Department of Education develop a list of competencies that curriculums are designed around statewide?
The State Board of Education, on the recommendation of the Secretary, has adopted about three or four five months ago a set of standards in the various subject areas. And I don't know that they have specific curriculum beyond that. I think that they are just the standards.
So if the charter receives public monies, they would have to adhere to those standards?
Actually, at this point, there is not much by way of requirement that the State imposes on anybody, school districts or charter schools. They are thinking about, they are talking about, they are moving toward some sort of a requirement of those things related to 2452 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. graduation and so on. But at this point, there's -- the only -- the only requirement that I know of an academic character on the charter schools is the one that we've imposed of having to take the same test in reading, math, and science. And that's not a requirement around what the kids have to do; it is a requirement around the world knowing how they're doing.
Right, okay. I was just wondering 'cause it appears that people are wanting to open charter schools, but this feels like that there's really no specific structure, other than the SAT-9, just in terms of outcome.
That is correct. And I think that some of the concerns that have been expressed here, including Councilman Cohen's, are right on target. And let me only add to those that one of my biggest fears is not only -- and this is clearly related a point that Councilman Cohen made. It's not just the parents who, once they have their child in a charter school, will sort of 2453 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. drain away their interest in schooling and in the fabric of democracy and so on, but one of the things that I worry about is some of the policy-makers and some of the elected officials having successfully passed charter schools -- and this is also a piece of my fear vis-a-vis vouchers -- is that they will actually think they've done something for public education by doing these things. Whereas in fact, and particularly as it is playing out and being implemented, that they are simply leaving 190, 200,000 -- in our case 200 and roughly 8 thousand kids next year in the same situation they used to be in. And they -- lots of folks go on television and speak to the newspapers and say, Look what we've done for the education of our children. And in the larger framework, it's frankly not much. I keep hoping that people who are charter school enthusiasts will step forward and be as vigorous in their advocacy for the public education of the 208,000 kids as they are in their advocacy of the 7,000 kids, but we're not getting much of that yet from the advocates of charter 2454 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. schools.
Dr. Hornbeck, can we receive a list of the charter schools, please?
Thank you. Is Councilman Ortiz in the room? Since he's not here, the Chair recognizes Councilman DiCicco.
I was listening to your testimony from my office yesterday for the most part. I think there were three -- the little schools.
Was the Adaire School one of the three I heard mentioned? There might be -- the PA system's really difficult to hear. There was one in design -- or two in 2455 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. design, I think I overheard someone say.
And I couldn't make out if it was Adaire or not; it didn't come across clear enough.
Good morning. I'm Tom McGlenchy. The three additional Little Schoolhouses are the Lamberton, the A.B. Day School, which is probably the one that --
Which is probably the one that came across almost like "Adaire" on the PA system, so it's not Adaire.
Where are we with the Adaire School in the design stage, or what have you of the --
Let me ask Mr. Skirski to respond to that. (Ted Skirski comes forward.)
Councilman, did you hear what the cost of each of the Little Schoolhouses is? 2456 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST.
Good morning. Ted Skirski, Office of Design and Construction for the School District. I'm sorry, didn't hear the full question.
Was the Adaire School -- and I think that question's been answered already -- one of the little schools that was being contemplated for the upcoming school year or in the near future?
I believe a request has been made for that from the principal. Is that --
I'm not aware. If it was, it was not made to me. We'll find out from the planning office, though, if it went through.
'Cause I attended a school parent-teacher meeting several months ago, and 3 or 400 people in the audience, that was 2457 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. the request of the majority of the people, that a little school be created there, and I just was wondering where we are in the process. But if you're telling me that you don't have that in the pipeline, then I'd appreciate it if you could get in touch with me at my office. I'd like to discuss that.
Superintendent Hornbeck, I've received a couple of calls from teachers in the system who have asked if I had any information about a proposal that may be forthcoming from the District regarding extending the waivers for residency for teachers. I don't know if this is just a rumor or not. Do you have any knowledge of that? Are you contemplating any requests to extend the waivers? And someone suggested it may be in the area of about three years for the waivers.
Well, what we talked about several times yesterday was the extreme problem we have with vacancies in the School District. That is to say, we had 300 to start the school year after hiring 800 people and are having 2458 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. a daily vacancy rate of roughly 150 since November 1st, with about 125 vacancies even today, and that we have accelerated significantly recruitment activities and strategies for bringing more people in. And a piece of that has been surveying the people who have turned us down to ask them why they are refusing to come and teach in Philadelphia, and the three major reasons are: residency, flexibility in the selection of schools, and financial factors like wages. And what we talked about yesterday is the need to have everything on the table as a way to put a teacher in front of kids, and I would imagine that would include residency. But there is no explicit plan at the moment to make any particular decision about residency. Indeed, I said yesterday in testimony that I would hope that we might be able to put together a group of Council people and the business community and the School District to examine everything from subsidized mortgages to other interesting initiatives that you or other members of Council might have about this. 2459 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. But we have today, in the 259 schools, roughly 3750 kids sitting there without a teacher. And to understate it somewhat, that's not a good situation. And so I think that those of us in policy-making positions, whether at Council or at the School District, have a major challenge of filling those holes.
I appreciate that, and I would like, to the request of the Council President, to be a part of that group that you put together because I've been very active in tax incentives and tax initiatives in trying to make Philadelphia a much more appealing place for people to move to, and I'd like to be a part of that committee. In the area of teachers, how many more classroom teachers do you have this year as opposed to last year? Is there a way of identifying that? And another question is, do I not understand that there's some -- is there an early-out being considered for teachers? And is that a direct result of the School District or is that something that was done through negotiations 2460 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. with the union?
Neither one. The State law is imposing it upon us. And as we said yesterday in testimony, we would very much like to keep that window open. In fact, if we don't keep that window open, we will likely have several hundred more vacancies that we would have otherwise because we have 59 principals and 1001 teachers who are eligible for 30-and-out. And Mr. Santilli will look for that number.
I didn't understand the Superintendent's answer. What do you mean by "keeping the window open"?
Well, the State law, at the moment, absent a change, will close a window that permits you to have 30 years and retire without penalty. And there are people -- there are 1001 teachers and 59 principals who have 30 years of service at the end of this year and who are eligible to retire under the 30-year provision but would not be eligible to retire under the 30 years and age 62 or 65 or whatever it is. And so if that window stays open, which 2461 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. would take a positive act of the legislature, if that window remains open, then some of these, you know, 55-year-old, 30-year veterans will say, Oh, I'll work another year. Or I'll work two more yeast. But if it goes ahead and closes, then more than a few of those people are going to say, Well, gosh, I would have worked another year or two, but I don't want to work till I'm 62, and so I'm going to take my retirement and go. And that will create more vacancies for us.
Has the implementation of cluster leaders had any impact on the number of teachers that are in classrooms? Has that caused some of that 300 or so vacancies to occur because you're moving from teacher status to cluster-leader status?
One point. This is a question I asked earlier today. We've been told that there are 200 or so teachers on special 2462 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. assignment, performing other types of facilitator roles. It seems obvious to me that if you had 200 more teachers in classrooms, you would have less of a shortage. But the response was that they are doing a higher good according to the School District administration by doing what they're doing. But I think it's clear numbers -- you can count -- that 200 less teachers are 200 less teachers, they're not in the classroom.
Right. And I was listening to your testimony, but I guess that question was asked when I was en route from my office to here, so I apologize for repeating the question. Can you tell me the number of personnel that are in the Chief Counsel's Office, the Chief of Staff's Office and Communications, the total number? I see the Chief of Staff but I just, for some reason, can't find Chief Counsel and Communications.
The Chief Counsel would be under Board and Executive Management. It's Section 17. 2463 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST.
Okay. And there are a couple follow-up questions to that. When we get to the number --
Communications, Chief of Staff, and Chief Counsel. And have the number of personnel in any of those departments increased over the last year? And how many Board members and/or people in the departments I mentioned have Board-issued cars and/or drivers?
There are in 1990 -- in Fiscal Year 1998, there were 11,274.7 teachers.
There were 11,274.7 -- this is on of A-7, if you'd like, in your budget book.
Okay. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: I didn't hear what question you're answering.
Oh, I'm answering how many teachers are in the classroom in the Operating Budget. And the estimate for the current year is 11,206. The estimate for Fiscal 2464 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. Year 2000 is 11,287.
Yes, 287. If I could point you to -01 in the large budget book.
Okay. The Superintendent's Office, School Board Members, General Counsel, Communications, and Government Relations are all in this particular program. You can see at the bottom that there are 57 people, and they're combined, and it has remained the same from '98 through the proposed budget in 2000.
The Chief of Staff's office is the next section, Number 18.
And there were 29 in Fiscal Year 1998, there are 34 now, and there will be 33 in the year 2000.
Okay. My other question had to do with vehicles, I believe.
I believe that they're 2465 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. getting an answer for you on that now.
The number of administrators who have vehicle assignments from two years ago was approximately 30; that number is down to now. And the number of overall 9 vehicles that are assigned to administrative staff 10 and Board members is approximately 10. Vehicles 11 are used as pool vehicles for the Board members as 12 well as administrative staff within the 13 Administration Building and the 22nd and Arch 14 Street facility. 15 So the numbers are down from previous 16 years, from about 30 to about 17, including the 17 Board and the administrative pool vehicles.
Very good, glad to hear it. Thank you. I have another question for the Superintendent. From time to time, we've heard comments from you as to the reduction in administrative positions during your term. What specific positions have been eliminated, if any?
We can provide that to 2466 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. you. There are several hundred, and so I can't pull them off the top of my head.
If you would make them available to the Chair, I'd appreciate it.
Thank you. I have no further questions at this time, Madam Chair.
Thank you. I'd like to get another question in now and then, today. Superintendent Hornbeck, you said that any given day you could have possibly 150 shortage of teachers. Don't you find it difficult getting substitute teachers?
Are you having difficulty in getting substitute teachers?
Yes. We have, if my memory serves me correctly, 1800 people who are signed up to be substitutes roughly now, and that's down from about 2500 a couple a years ago. And even among the 1800, we are not always able to get enough substitutes to cover the absentees that day because many of those substitutes will go and 2467 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. substitute in the suburbs first 'cause they get more money, or they will have made other plans for the day and won't come. But the pool itself is down.
Well, what qualifications does the substitute have to have?
Ms. Adler, would you come up and respond to the President's question on that. And are my numbers about right?
Right, yes. Marge Adler, here. Substitutes must be college graduates and certified, either permanently certified or they're on an emergency certification.
Well, why would they want to be substitutes instead of teachers?
Well, some people prefer that. They may not have passed all the examinations they have to for either the State or 2468 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. for our requirements; they may be in the process of doing that. And then there are some people that like being substitutes.
Is there any way of enticing some of the 1800 to become teachers in the system?
I think we do have some that do join the ranks of teachers every year. That's probably a piece of the reason why we have fewer substitutes on the rolls this year, but not all of it.
Okay, thank you. The Chair recognizes Councilman Kenney.
Thank you. Madam President. Just one comment as a result of Councilman Cohen's observation about the public 2469 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. school system and some of the issues relative to charters and vouchers and those concerns. He said that one of the most treasured aspects of democracy is the public school system, and I would have to tend to agree with him there. But also one of the most treasured aspects of democracy is the freedom to choose what's best for one's children. And that somehow, the monopoly of public education and trying to force people into a system that they don't feel comfortable with has created other democratic choices of relocation and movement from the system, in search of -- and I know my friends who have moved out of City have moved not because of the taxes, not because of race, not because of crime, but because they cannot find a school system that they're comfortable with for their children. And while I recognize the needs that are facing the public schools and its special problems that it faces, I think we can't also forget about the need for parents to do what's right for their kids now. And I think that the result -- charters have resulted in that, the 2470 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. voucher argument has resulted because people have been forced by the government to participate in a monopolistic system that they are now rejecting. So that's just my -- and I'm sure on the next round, you can comment on that. I'm curious as to how many children have come into the public school system from the private and parochial system over the last four, five, six years. And do we have those numbers, do we do that kind of interview?
I think we can get that information. As the Archdiocesan schools have closed particularly, we have gotten a significant increase in youngsters coming into the system.
And that significant increase would strain your existing resources even more than if we didn't have them in the system.
So in some ways, stabilizing or making -- allowing parents to make those choice, that may allow them -- not create 2471 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. the necessity for them to enter the public school system in the long run; it would potentially save us money.
Well, let me make this observation, which goes to the observation I made a moment ago in response to Councilman Cohen. There are, for example, as I understand it, about 25,000 vacant seats in the Archdiocesan schools at the present time, and an offer has been made every once in a while for us to take advantage of those 25,000. And if we did, and assuming an absolute arithmetic fit, that would only leave 190,000 kids for us. Nobody ever makes any recommendations about what we do with 190,000. My point is that too many who are in favor of providing those choices, as far as I can tell, rarely make recommendations about what will be good for the 190,000, but paint the picture of the kids moving as being what we ought to do about education generally. And what I fear is that then maybe 25,000 kids get taken care of someplace, but I don't see much apparent concern for the other 190,000 kids.
Isn't there a 2472 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. natural benefit to reducing the class sizes in our schools by 22,000 students? Does it not benefit our own existing public school students by having less children in the class, less time for teachers?
Well, I've heard nobody suggest that we divest ourselves of the 25,000 and keep all the teachers.
I've always heard instead that we get rid of the kids and we get rid of the teachers and we reduce costs.
Not under Governor Ridge's voucher program. As I understand it, the School District would be held harmless over the next five years at current funding levels, no 18 matter how many children they lost.
It's even conceivable to me, as a way to get the bill passed, that one do a hold-harmless for five years.
Well, but we -- 2473 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST.
People are out of office and so it's not their concern anymore. The issue is building a public school system that seems to me that serves all the kids. And as I said with the charter schools, I just wish somebody would come and say, Let's have charter schools for the 7,000 and let's do for the other 208,000 what we need to do for them to read and do math and do science. Nobody, again, has been friendlier to charter schools than we at a tune of $40 million for next year.
Well, I think you've been friendly to charter schools based on the requirement of the State law, not necessary an attitude that --
Attitudinally, I mean, the transportation issue and mosaic alone was not exactly a pleasant circumstance.
Well, going back to our conversation about that yesterday, the fact is that the State law also dictates how we treat transportation. So if the law needs to be 2474 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. changed, we ought to change the law, and I've got some other suggestions for it as well.
Okay. The question that Councilman DiCicco -- in response to his question -- and I was on the phone at the time -- was there 57 people in the Communications Office? (Unidentified person responds inaudibly off mike.)
That was the entire Executive and Board Management Program, which includes the Superintendent's Office.
There are nine people in the Communications Office. 2475 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST.
Okay, thank you. I just misheard the answer and I wanted to make sure I cleared it. The Summer School Program that's being contemplated will set up separate summer 7 schools based on the clusters for 3rd, 7th, and 8 9th grade? 9
And those 15 individual cluster summer schools will all staffed 16 with a principal and staff and teachers that are 17 required to handle these children for the summer 18 period? 19
Do we have any idea 21 how many children are going to be required to go 22 to summer school from each of those clusters? And do we need 22 separate schools with 22 administrative staffs?
Let me ask. Catherine, 2476 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. why don't you respond, why don't want you respond to the summer program question. (Catherine Connor comes forward.)
I'm Catherine Connor, with the School District. We are expecting somewhere in the range of 12,000 students to be attending summer school. And since substantial proportions of these are going to be 3rd-graders and 7th-graders, the issue of distance is really significant. And, in fact, when we talked about with the cluster leaders, a number of them are concerned about offering only one program within their cluster and are trying to find ways to squeeze funds out of wherever else they can in order to be able to offer two of them. So for me, the question is not, Is 18 too many? It's, Is 22 enough? 19
I'm confused about 20 offering programs. What would be the difference 21 in two different programs? Why would there be a 22 need for two programs in one --
Just so the kids can get there. Again, as with charter students, we don't bus 'em. 2477 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST.
No, my question is, you're telling me that the cluster leaders have said that they don't even think that the may be 5 enough, that they need to offer an additional 6 program. What is -- 7
To have two different 8 locations, two sites. So that it isn't too far 9 for a 3rd-grader to get there. 10
Okay. But do we 11 have projections on how many children from each 12 cluster? You said 12,000 total? But how many 13 from each cluster do we expect? 14 And would we have a situation where you 15 might have, you know, 50 kids in one and 250 kids 16 in another? 17
I expect that there will 18 be differences from cluster to cluster, partly 19 based on the enrollment at the cluster. We don't 20 think any cluster is going to be as small as 350 21 students. 22
-- minimum numbers. 2478 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST.
Thank you. The Chair recognizes Councilwoman Blackwell.
Thank you, Madam President. How many more charter schools do we expect next year? We'll go from to -- how many 12 is it, 29 or something like that? 13
It will be 25 -- or is it 25 altogether, or is it 27 with the 2 that didn't go this year?
I think it was 27. (Dr. Hornbeck confers off mike with staff members.)
Yeah, there are 27 approved, but there are 2 that we don't yet know whether they're going to open in September, of those 27. .
Again on this issue of transportation. We've been reporting 2479 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. back to charter schools that it is in the Commonwealth legislation, and their reply is that State law mandates transportation and that it is a violation of State law for them not have to the transportation; and, in fact, that charter schools are having to spend their own monies to bus children to their school buildings. They're saying it's a State law that would mandate transportation. The same if these are, you know, public or private school, and they should be able to get the same that the other schools get.
Okay. Is it possible for students to use -- for students in charter schools to use gymnasium facilities in public schools? (Dr. Hornbeck confers off mike with staff members.)
The answer would be yes. They would have -- it would have to be worked out logistically and all of that, and they would have to pay for it. But there are ways that that could be done. But nobody's asked us for it. 2480 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST.
Okay. One last question on this go-round about monitors. Are there monitors on all buses or wherever there were attendants? Let me ask it another way.
No. They are on buses where we think that the presence of a camera would be helpful in controlling behavior.
They're not on all buses where attendants were removed? Or are they all on buses where individual attendants were removed? (Dr. Hornbeck confers off mike with staff members.)
There is. . . I guess this doesn't get out to all the kids. There is a fake camera on --
A fake camera on every de-seg. bus and there is a real camera on one of every ten of those buses. So to those children who may be watching this, you don't know which one the ten 2481 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. is. (Laughter.)
All right. Last question. Back to charters. I know some have been approved, but I assume that we're approving them earlier this year because, as you know, last year, I guess they were being approved late -- I don't know, maybe around April or May. And as you know, a lot of -- no, were they all approved early last year?
We approved them in February last year. We did last year arguably give a little bit more flexibility, which was an effort to respond to the needs of charter schools. In some ways, we learned our lesson, and so we're being much crisper in saying, you know, this is the date and that's the date and you got to have it in, and if you don't have a certificate of occupancy, etc., etc. But the timing for the original approval last year was about the same time.
You understood exactly where I'm going because so many schools, when I visited every one last year, many schools 2482 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. -- and I did -- in July, a lot of schools just had their framework up, you know, frames of buildings and were basically just rehabbing. And when they told me they'd be ready a month in July or August, of course common sense, knowing the City Hall end and all the inspections and all that has to take place and how long it really takes buildings to get done, you know. . .
I think a lot of charter-school operators are finding out when they actually when go down that pike that it's tougher to run a school than they thought it was in the first instance, and it's more than just getting up some morning and thinking, Gee, wouldn't it be fun to have my own school. And so they have faced those kinds of issues. And, in fact, we think in the long run, that our stronger stand about deadlines and what you've got to have done when will, in fact, be helpful to the charter schools because it won't allow some to sort of delude themselves into thinking they can be ready within a month or two.
Yeah, I think that was really, really one of the difficult 2483 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. things that people who were educational visionaries had to figure out how to do a whole building, take a building and put it together and design it for their needs and for their goals to have their charter schools. Madam Chair, I'll defer.
Madam Chair, could I ask a follow-up on the question of surveillance cameras?
Thank you, Madam Chair. Mr. Hornbeck, the surveillance cameras on buses, could you tell us what it would cost to have real cameras on all buses, what the additional cost would be?
Yes. One out of 2484 3/2/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. ten, I believe are real --
Each of the black boxes cost about $99, $100, and the camera could cost 5 to $700 each.. 6
So it's an 8, $900 investment between the black box and the camera per bus.