Committee Hearing, November 30, 2011

COUNCIL OF THE CITY OF PHILADELPHIA2 COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC HEALTH AND3 HUMAN SERVICES4 5 6 Room 400, City Hall7 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania Wednesday, November 30, 20118 1:20 p.m. 9 10 PRESENT: COUNCILWOMAN MARIAN B. TASCO, CHAIR11 COUNCILMAN W. WILSON GOODE, JR. COUNCILMAN JAMES KENNEY12 COUNCILWOMAN DONNA REED MILLER COUNCILWOMAN MARIA D. QUINONES-SANCHEZ13 COUNCILWOMAN BLONDELL REYNOLDS BROWN 14 15 BILL 100011 - An ordinance amending Chapter 6-800 of The Philadelphia Code, entitled "Lead16 Paint Disclosure"... 17 BILL 110712 - An ordinance amending Chapter 6-600 of The Philadelphia Code, entitled18 "Asbestos Projects"... 19 RESOLUTION 110584 - Resolution authorizing Council's Committee on Public Health and Human20 Services to hold public hearings for the purpose of examining existing programs and21 services available to at-risk adolescent girls...22 23 - - -24 25 2 1

Good2 afternoon. We ask your cooperation.3 It's been a long day for some of these4 Committee members. They've been here5 since the morning on other bills and6 resolutions.7 I would like to call the8 Council Committee on Public Health and9 Human Services to order. I would10 recognize that we have a quorum in the11 presence of Councilwoman Donna Miller,12 Councilwoman Blondell Reynolds Brown,13 Councilman Goode, Councilman Kenney and14 myself, Marian Tasco.15 We have one resolution, 110584,16 is going to be recessed to the call of17 the Chair. So if you're here regarding18 Resolution 110584, that will not have a19 hearing today.20 We have Bill 110712. This bill21 is being amended, and we now call on Nan22 Feyler, Chief of Staff, Health23 Department.24 We'll have the Clerk read the25 3 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 title of the two bills that will be heard2 today.3

Bill No. 100011, an4 ordinance amending Chapter 6-800 of The5 Philadelphia Code, entitled "Lead Paint6 Disclosure," to require a certification7 that a property is lead free or lead safe8 before it may be rented to a tenant;9 amending Chapter PM-102.0, entitled10 "Licensing," to require landlord11 certification of compliance with certain12 provisions of Chapter 6-800 as a13 condition of receipt of a housing14 inspection license; and making technical15 changes; all under certain terms and16 conditions.17 Bill No. 110712, an ordinance18 amending Chapter 6-600 of The19 Philadelphia Code, entitled "Asbestos20 Projects," by providing that no person or21 affiliated persons, as defined, may be22 both a licensed asbestos contractor and a23 certified asbestos project inspector,24 under certain terms and conditions.25 4 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1

Thank you2 very much. We will hear Bill 110712, and3 we ask Nan Feyler, who is Chief of Staff,4 Health Department, and all of those who5 are accompanying her to come to the6 table.7 (Witness approached witness8 table.)9

Good afternoon.10

Good11 afternoon.12

Chairman Tasco and13 members of the Committee on Public Health14 and Human Services, I am Nan Feyler,15 Chief of Staff of the Department of16 Public Health. Thank you for this17 opportunity to present testimony today on18 Bill No. 110712, which was introduced by19 Councilman Kenney. The bill amends20 Chapter 6-600 of The Philadelphia Code,21 entitled "Asbestos Projects," by22 providing that no person or affiliated23 persons, as defined, may be both a24 licensed asbestos contractor and a25 5 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 certified asbestos project inspector,2 under certain terms and conditions.3 The Department of Public4 Health, Division of Air Management5 Services is the agency of the City with6 the regulatory responsibility to enforce7 federal, state and local air quality8 standards and protect the citizens of9 Philadelphia from emissions of air10 pollutants. This specifically includes11 the potential emission of asbestos fiber,12 which is recognized as a hazardous air13 pollutant by the federal Clean Air Act,14 Title 3 of The Philadelphia Code, known15 as the Air Management Code, and of16 particular relevance this afternoon, the17 Philadelphia Health Code, otherwise known18 as the City's Asbestos Code.19 The Department of Public Health20 recognizes the intent of this bill, which21 is to clarify and broaden the requirement22 for certified project inspectors,23 otherwise known as APIs or air monitors,24 acting in their official role under the25 6 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 Code to not be associated or affiliated2 with any particular licensed asbestos3 contractor, under certain terms and4 conditions. Our office has been engaged5 in ongoing discussions with Councilman6 Kenney on this issue, and we appreciate7 his willingness to hear our input. We8 have reviewed the Councilman's proposed9 amendments and have no objections to the10 bill as proposed to be amended.11 Thank you for this opportunity12 to present testimony. I'm here with Ed13 Braun of Air Management Services to14 answer any questions.15

Thank you16 very much.17 The Chair recognizes Councilman18 Kenney.19

Thank you,20 Madam Chair.21 I just want to thank your22 department and all the folks that were23 working on this in the Law Department and24 Health. They were very cooperative and25 7 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 understanding where we wanted to get to,2 and hopefully we've gotten there with3 this legislation. So I just wanted to4 commend you all and thank you all for5 your cooperation.6

Thank you.7

Thank you.8 Are there any questions from9 members of the Committee?10 (No response.)11

Thank you.12 Thank you very much for your testimony.13

Thank you.14

We will15 now call on Councilwoman Brown, who has16 opening comments regarding Bill 100011.17

Thank you,18 Madam Chairwoman.19 To members of the Committee and20 all of those assembled who have an21 interest in this matter --22

Forgive23 me, please.24 Is there anyone else here to25 8 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 testify on Bill 110712? Ryan Boyer,2 Damian Lavell. I'm sorry. Forgive me.3 (Witnesses approached witness4 table.)5

Please --6 I'm sorry.7

That's okay. Good8 afternoon, Honorable Councilperson. My9 name is Damian Lavell and I'm the10 President of the Delaware Valley11 Insulation and Abatement Contractors12 Association. We would like to thank13 Councilman Kenney for bringing together14 our association, our collective15 bargaining partner, Ryan Boyer, of the16 Laborers District Council and the City of17 Philadelphia. Our association supports18 this ordinance because it levels the19 playing field for our association20 contractors.21

Could you22 speak into the mike, please. Pull the23 microphone to you.24

Thank you.25 9 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 Present regulations allow2 asbestos project inspectors to perform3 both air quality testing and design in4 the asbestos abatement work. Many times5 the asbestos project inspectors request6 proprietary information such as our7 financial statements, insurance and8 bonding information when acting as9 inspectors. We believe that this10 information leaves our association11 members at a severe disadvantage when12 bidding against these inspectors when13 they act as asbestos abatement14 contractors. We respectfully request15 that this honorable committee help our16 association members and approve this17 ordinance.18 Thank you for the opportunity19 to present our views.20

Thank you21 very much.22 You want to testify, sir?23

No. I'm just with24 him.25 10 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1

Is there2 anyone else here to testify on Bill3 110712, the asbestos contractor bill?4 (No response.)5

Thank you6 very much.7 The Chair now recognizes8 Councilwoman Brown regarding Bill 100011.9

11 Good afternoon to all of those12 assembled in our Chambers. 16 Lead poisoning interferes with17 a variety of body processes and is toxic18 to many organs and tissues, including the19 heart, bones, intestines, kidneys,20 reproductive and nervous systems. 20 I learned that a majority of21 our new lead cases occur in rental22 properties. 1 rentals. 5 Fact: At the request of the6 landlord community, we were asked to7 delay hearings, and we did. HAPCO and8 members of the related association9 members asked us to delay hearings so10 that they could commission and present a11 study that would be completed in two12 months. We honored that request. 14 We received that report 1215 months later. 2 So every single step of the3 way, we have been willing, willing to4 work closely with the leadership and the5 membership of HAPCO and related6 associations so that we could come up7 with a better bill. And I will say to8 you that those discussions have been9 always, always positive and candid. 1 of those recommendations we have adopted2 in our bill. 12 For example, there's an13 interest to limit this bill to those who14 provide housing for children six and15 under. 1 So to those who believe this2 bill will only help landlords who are3 already doing the right thing, we believe4 so. 11 To those who believe that the12 cost of a dust wipe test compares to the13 cost of a poisoned child, we would14 disagree, because one death is one death15 too many. One poisoned child is one16 poisoned child too many. And know that17 we have diminished the burden, reduced18 the cost from the high standard of lead19 abatement to a minimum standard called20 dust wipes. A dust wipe that costs a21 couple of hundred dollars is far less22 than the estimated $80,000 cost23 associated with one poisoned child. 1 lead poisoning is very, very, very2 difficult to diagnose, and too often for3 parents who are somewhat informed and4 knowledgeable, at the point that they5 discover that their child has lead6 poisoning, they're well into middle7 school, already delayed and already8 presented with academic challenges going9 forward. 10 What we've learned also is that11 those in your community can deduct the12 cost of the test, of the dust wipe test,13 on your taxes. 17 So I need to underscore that we18 have become deeply sensitive to the19 concern to not increase the burdens on20 those who own property in the City of21 Philadelphia. 2 I'm proud of the ultimate3 product of these discussions. 11 So now we live in a world where12 when you finish with a bill, no one is13 100 percent happy. It doesn't work that14 way. 20 So I want you to take notice of21 the visuals, which really amplify the22 scale of this issue. Look to see where23 lead poisoning exists in the City of24 Philadelphia. 16

Thank you,17 Madam Councilwoman, and we appreciate18 your strong effort and support in this19 matter and the due diligence you and your20 office have taken to allow for everybody21 to present their case on this bill.22 Before we continue, I have been23 notified by the Fire Department that24 those of you who are standing cannot25 20 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 stand because of the Fire Code. We ask2 you to go to the -- take the elevator to3 the fifth floor and there are seats up in4 the balcony, and we will not continue the5 meeting until that is done. There may be6 seats in the audience. If not, please,7 we have to ask you to go to the fifth8 floor and take a seat upstairs.9 (Brief pause.)10

We now11 will call on Ms. Nan Feyler, Philadelphia12 Department of Public Health, to come13 forward and those who are accompanying14 her.15 (Witness approached witness16 table.)17

Good afternoon,18 Chairwoman Tasco and members of the19 Committee. I am Nan Feyler, Chief of20 Staff of the Philadelphia Department of21 Public Health. 1 certification by a landlord that private2 rental property of a certain age is free3 of deteriorated lead paint and4 contaminated lead dust before it may be5 rented to a new tenant. 13 Lead poisoning is completely14 preventable, but with over 90 percent of15 Philadelphia housing built before lead16 paint was banned as recently as 1978,17 eliminating lead paint from homes with18 children in order to prevent poisoning is19 a daunting task. 4 The importance of the private5 and public sector working together to6 prevent lead poisoning of Philadelphia's7 children cannot be overstated. Despite8 years of progress, there are still more9 than a thousand children in Philadelphia10 each year who suffer the irreparable harm11 of lead poisoning because of exposure to12 deteriorated lead paint and lead dust in13 their homes. Thousands more children,14 particularly low-income and minority15 children, are at risk. 19 Landlords are already20 obligated -- I want to just clarify the21 law, as I understand it. 1 deteriorated, peeling and flaking paint,2 and is certified free of dangerous levels3 of lead dust. Then the landlord must4 provide a copy of the lead dust clearance5 report to the tenant, along with6 information advising during the course of7 the lease that the tenant inform the8 landlord of any deteriorated paint9 surfaces. 16 So the law is not requiring landlords to17 do anything different to the condition of18 their apartments. It is requiring that19 they hire a certified lead risk inspector20 or assessor to do a visual clearance and21 to do dust wipe clearances, and let me22 explain why the dust wipe clearance is23 essential. It's essential in ensuring24 the property is lead safe. 1 and ingestion of lead dust, most often2 from deteriorated paint, is the most3 common source of lead poisoning of4 children. 7 Without a dust wipe clearance8 even after removing deteriorated paint,9 hazardous lead dust may continue to put a10 child at risk. Let me share a 2007 study11 in the Journal of Environmental Research12 found that a significant number of rental13 units remediated pursuant to Maryland's14 law, which is very similar to15 Philadelphia's -- in fact, it's a little16 stronger in what it requires -- failed to17 make the rental unit safe or that the18 dust lead loadings were below clearance19 level based solely on a visual inspection20 without dust lead testing. 1 four-year-old boy living in Germantown, a2 two-year-old girl from Hunting Park and a3 two-and-a-half-year-old boy in Frankford,4 all of whom have been recently diagnosed5 with lead poisoning. The boy in6 Frankford was discharged from the7 hospital where he was treated with8 chelation for extremely serious lead9 poisoning. 5 Thank you very much for6 listening to my passion. 9

Thank you10 for your testimony.11

Let me say12 thank you again to you and members of13 your team in the Health Department, but14 also let me acknowledge your willingness15 to meet with the members of the landlord16 community long after this is over --17

Absolutely.18

-- to19 further look to see how we can close the20 gap and not be onerous to landlords who21 want to provide housing for our City's22 residents.23

We welcome that.24

And you do25 28 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 plan to remain as long as you can?2

I brought my3 pajamas. Yes, I'll be here.4

Thank you5 very much.6

The Chair7 now recognizes George Gould and Phil8 Lord. Are they present? Ms. Evette9 Gingrow; Ms. Colleen McCauley; Jamie M.10 Ware, Esquire; Judith Palmer; and Erin C.11 Cusack.12 (Witnesses approached witness13 table.)14

Good15 afternoon.16

Good afternoon. Is17 it good afternoon? I guess it is. 19 Good afternoon. My name is20 George Gould, and I thank the Committee21 for giving me the opportunity to testify22 regarding Bill No. 2 I am the Managing Attorney of3 the Housing and Energy Units at Community4 Legal Services in Philadelphia. I have5 worked in the area of childhood lead6 poisoning for almost 40 years. I served7 as a member of the National Task Force on8 Lead-Based Paint Hazard Reduction and9 Financing, which Congress created in10 Title X of the Housing and Community11 Development Act of 1992. 17 Childhood lead poisoning is a18 most serious problem. We are all well19 aware of the devastating impact lead can20 have on young children. behavior problems. The societal costs of childhood5 lead poisoning are extremely high,6 including medical treatment, special7 education and long-term care. 17 Currently in this city, there18 is minimal prevention of childhood lead19 poisoning. Normally no action is taken20 until a child is detected with an21 elevated blood lead level. 2 Now, you will hear today that3 lead poisoning has gone down, that the4 City has many creative programs and this5 bill is really redundant. One of the6 programs the City has, and quite frankly7 it has been successful, is Lead Court,8 but Lead Court deals with violations of9 the City Code where there is determined10 that there is a lead hazard. But as I11 just mentioned, the City does not inspect12 for lead hazards until they are notified13 that a child has been poisoned. So every14 case that is taken into Lead Court is a15 case where a child has already been16 poisoned. And what this bill does and17 what Councilwoman Reynolds Brown has said18 very eloquently, it changes that. 21 The approach of waiting for a22 child to get poisoned is fundamentally23 wrong. 1 instead waited for a person to become2 ill. 5 We do have prevention measures,6 the proper testing and, if necessary, the7 remediation of the lead hazard, but we8 don't do it. 9 It sets up a process where a landlord10 must obtain a certification prior to11 leasing a rental unit that the property12 is lead free or lead safe. 22 The bill requires minimal23 change for landlords. 1 that they are adhering to the existing2 Housing Code requirements imposed upon3 them. A visual inspection and a dust4 wipe clearance by a certified lead5 inspector or risk assessor is required6 prior to the leasing of a rental7 property. 12 Our office often sees tenants13 who have been informed that their child14 has been poisoned by lead because of the15 conditions of the home in which they16 live. The time has come for the City of17 Philadelphia to take the necessary steps18 to properly address the continuing19 problem of child lead poisoning. We can20 no longer allow our children to be21 canaries to detect lead in houses. 4

Thank you.5 (Applause and booing.)6

We're7 going to respect each witness as they8 testify. Some of you have a different9 opinion about this bill, and we respect10 that, but we will be respectful of each11 other. We can do this in a fairly timely12 fashion or you can be here all night.13 And I don't want to be here all night.14 And I think that if we continue this in a15 fairly civil way, we can have everybody16 present their position before this17 Committee, and we will respect that.18 Next we have Mr. Phil Lord.19 Thank you.20

Thank you. Thank21 you, Chairwoman Tasco, Councilwoman22 Reynolds Brown, Councilwoman Sanchez and23 members of the Health and Human Services24 Committee. 1 Evette Gingrow, who was to be here today,2 could not make it, but she is a TURN3 client whom we helped and her4 five-year-old son was diagnosed with a5 high lead level, and she would testify6 that in fact she would not have moved7 into her unit had she known about this8 condition being there. 11 TURN, as you know, is a tenant12 service and advocacy organization here in13 Philadelphia, and we see thousands of14 tenants every year who have all kinds of15 problems, either eviction problems or16 repair problems. We help them interact17 with their landlord. We help them with18 L&I. We provide rental subsidies, a19 variety of services. So we get to see20 firsthand in this context what it means21 for someone to have a serious repair22 problem and not be able to address it23 effectively. 4 The current system right now,5 as you might know, deals with -- provides6 self-disclosure by landlords as a way of7 dealing with lead paint and complaints by8 tenants. 19 The law also requires landlords20 to give notice to tenants about the lead21 prevention laws and about the dangers of22 lead. 1 occasionally. In my 30 years of2 practicing landlord-tenant law, I've3 never seen a disclosure statement where a4 landlord said, We have this lead problem5 historically and this is what we've done6 about it. 18 If you just imagine for one19 second the reason we know lead poisoning20 is not as serious as it was decades ago21 is because our children are not getting22 as sick. 1 sick children. They become the2 indicator, not tests, not -- even cars3 use crash dummies. We're using children4 to tell us whether or not houses are5 safe. That doesn't make sense. That's6 barbaric. 7 Some will say it imposes new8 requirements. I think Councilwoman Brown9 made it very clear. This is not a new10 requirement in terms of repairs. 15 Others would say that, Well, it16 only affects children, so why have it17 apply to seniors or students or anybody18 else. Councilwoman Brown was very clear19 about that. It's against the law to20 discriminate against family status, and21 we know from our experience at TURN that22 a major source of discrimination is23 family status discrimination. 2 If we make this apply only to houses with3 children, that will increase. We're4 confident of that, and that will make5 people even more unable to find housing6 if they're parents. 11 First of all, the concept, from our12 viewpoint, is flawed. 15 In other words, basically if housing is16 housing, it has to be decent, and that's17 a minimum requirement. 1 that's going to cost. We just checked2 today. An EPA assessment is anywhere3 from $10 to $25 to do that. If you have4 three being done, that's $75. An5 inspector may add another 50, 75 on top6 of that. We're not talking hundreds and7 hundreds of dollars. 12 So we think that this is an13 affordable thing. When it comes to14 buying a new home, they ask you to do an15 inspection for termites. That costs a16 hundred dollars. I mean, no one has ever17 been killed by a termite. 7

Thank you8 very much for your testimony.9 (Applause and booing.)10

You can't11 be booing children. You can't be booing12 children. I don't believe that. 14 Can we have Ms. Colleen15 McCauley. 16 MS. McCAULEY: My name is17 Colleen McCauley and I'm the Health18 Policy Director at Public Citizens for19 Children and Youth. 6 I'm going to start and end7 today with one main message. This bill8 will make a big difference for babies,9 and it requires minimal change for10 landlords. Landlords simply need to11 prove that they are adhering to the12 existing housing law by obtaining a13 certificate that their properties built14 before 1978 have no lead hazards when a15 new tenant moves in. 18 Philadelphia already has a law19 that said you can't rent a property with20 lead hazards. Yet, every year about a21 thousand children in Philadelphia are22 poisoned, and half of these children are23 poisoned in rental properties. 1 Health stated that 55 percent of2 properties of poisoned kids are rental3 properties. Don't get me wrong, many4 landlords do the right thing and comply5 with the law; others do not. Thus, the6 current law alone is not enough. 9 We urge you to pass this bill,10 because based on published models, it's11 estimated that childhood lead poisoning12 in Philadelphia for just the children13 poisoned in a one-year period can cost14 the City, State and taxpayers more than15 $75 million in direct healthcare costs,16 special education and juvenile17 delinquency costs, as well as total18 lifetime earnings losses. 23 Landlords make money off of24 people renting their units. 1 it works. )4 MS. McCAULEY: Again, this bill5 requires that a unit built before 1978 be6 tested for possible lead hazards. PCCY7 obtained estimates for the cost of a test8 from six private businesses. For a9 three-bedroom unit, the cost of10 inspection ranged from $350 to $500, with11 an average cost of $375. 15 Take, for instance, Rochester,16 New York, which has a law similar to this17 bill in place. Most importantly, two18 years after Rochester's law was in19 effect, the number of poisoned children20 decreased. 23 This bill is modeled after a24 law passed in Washington, DC in 2009. 5 Also, the number of people certified in6 DC to test houses to help -- to test7 houses or help rid houses of lead hazards8 increased from 233 certifications in 20099 to 706 certifications in 2011. 16 The workforce expanded to help fulfill17 the demand for services that the law18 stimulated. The DC law helped create19 jobs. 1 all of that security deposit to cover the2 cost of any damage. 6 I'll end by saying that this7 bill will make a big difference for8 babies and will require minimal change9 for landlords. You can change the lives10 of children by protecting them from a11 known life-altering and preventable12 hazard. )21

You will22 have an opportunity to testify if you've23 signed up.24 (Someone yelling.)25 47 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1

You can2 ask that question when you come to the3 table.4 Next.5

Good afternoon,6 Councilmembers. My name is Jamie Ware,7 but I'm actually not here in capacity for8 myself or my organization. I'm actually9 here today on behalf of a friend named10 Judith Palmer, who is a landlord in our11 community. She was very disappointed12 that she couldn't be here today. She13 just found out about this hearing last14 night, and so I have made her phone15 number available on the testimony that16 I've given to all of you if you want to17 call her with any follow-up questions18 after I read her testimony.19 Members of the Council, good20 afternoon. My name is Judith Palmer and21 I am a landlord. I rent the property22 located at 421 East Rittenhouse Street in23 Germantown, Council District 8. The24 property was built before 1978. I25 48 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 apologize that I am not with you today to2 tell you in person how I feel about Bill3 100011, but I just found out about the4 hearing last night. Nonetheless, I hope5 that my testimony will shed some light on6 how some landlords feel about this bill.7 I am a proponent of Bill8 100011. As a landlord in the community,9 I also like to think of myself as a10 responsible business operator in the11 community. The safety of my tenants is12 my highest priority, and I do everything13 in my power to ensure the safety of my14 renters. If a certified lead inspection15 is part of keeping my tenants safe, then16 as a responsible businessowner, I will17 gladly do so.18 The City Housing Code already19 requires rental properties to be20 maintained free from lead hazards,21 including lead-based paint hazards. A22 certification saying that a rental23 property built before 1978 is lead free24 or lead safe when a new tenant moves in25 49 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 is just another way of saying that we as2 landlords are being compliant with the3 law.4 It is my understanding that5 lead certification inspections have been6 priced to cost about 250 to maybe $300,7 $400. I am a landlord, and the property8 I rent out is an investment. My rental9 agreements are business transactions.10 This minimal cost is just the cost of11 doing business in rental properties.12 Let's talk about remediation13 for just a minute. It can be expensive14 when a landlord has allowed a property to15 fall into serious disrepair. But the16 City Housing Code already requires that17 lead hazards be remediated. I and any18 other landlord already have to take care19 of dilapidated paint. Rental property20 owners cannot rent their properties with21 these hazards in them. The bill has22 nothing to do with remediation. I just23 want to make that clear. Also, don't24 forget that passing Bill 100011 is just25 50 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 the right thing to do.2 It is too bad that some of my3 colleagues do not follow the City Housing4 Code. However, over half of the5 Philadelphia properties that cause lead6 poisoning in children are rental7 properties. So clearly some landlords8 are not following the law.9 If we have to take this measure10 to protect babies and kids, everyone11 should be for it, as protecting the12 community's children is the highest13 priority of any community that wants to14 thrive well into the future.15 Additionally, don't forget, a thriving16 community makes the value of our17 properties go up and thereby produces18 more rental income.19 Landlords may be present at the20 hearing to testify against the bill. I21 am not really sure why. I cannot think22 of a single reason why we as landlords23 cannot invest in the future of our24 communities by making sure children are25 51 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 safe from lead hazards.2 I can be contacted with any3 questions that you may have. I'm sure4 other landlords feel the way I do, but5 just didn't know about this opportunity6 to speak out. I'm not a member of HAPCO.7 So thank you for your time.8

Thank you9 very much.10 (Applause.)11

Is Erin12 Cusack here?13 (No response.)14

All right.15 We thank you all so much for your16 testimony.17 Any questions?18 (No response.)19

Thank you.20 Our next panel will be21 Dr. Carla Campbell, Dr. Morgan Leafe,22 Todd Ziegler, Lynette Lazarus, Caroline23 Watts.24 We do have a two-minute time25 52 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 limit on your testimony. So if it's2 longer than that, you might want to3 summarize, particularly if you are giving4 us the same statistical information that5 we heard before.6 Good afternoon. Would you7 please -- who is going to testify first?8 Campbell, Dr. Campbell? All right.9 Thank you.10

11 To the esteemed members of Philadelphia12 City Council and Chairwoman Tasco, my13 name is Carla Campbell and I'm a14 pediatrician at the Children's Hospital15 of Philadelphia, or CHOP, with training16 in environmental and occupational17 medicine. I am an Associate Teaching18 Professor at the Drexel University School19 of Public Health. I'm a member of the20 Committee on Environmental Health of the21 American Academy of Pediatrics and past22 Chairwoman of the federal Advisory23 Committee on Childhood Lead Poisoning24 Prevention. 3 Today I'm here to voice my4 strong support for Council Bill 100011,5 the Lead Paint Disclosure bill. 9 The American Academy has10 summarized the many health impacts of11 lead exposure. Many of those have been12 stated previously. 10 For these reasons, our nation for decades11 has pursued a multi-faceted strategy of12 reducing children's exposure to lead from13 all sources, including air, paint, soil,14 dust, food, water and the full range of15 consumer products. 18 I have experienced these19 adverse health effects firsthand while20 treating hundreds of children with21 elevated blood lead levels through the22 Lead Evaluation Clinic at CHOP. Philadelphia. They typically come from2 poor inner city and/or immigrant3 families. These families who live in5 poverty don't choose to live in badly6 kept substandard housing. Often this7 type of housing is the only thing they8 can afford and is a step up from being9 homeless. 14 Why do these children have lead15 poisoning? S. 1 lead-contaminated house dust and soil2 while living in homes that are built3 prior to 1978 that have deteriorated lead4 paint. 7 Most children do not directly8 eat paint chips, but ingest small amounts9 of lead-contaminated dust through10 hand-to-mouth activity, which is repeated11 hundreds of times each day. That is a12 normal developmental stage that children13 go through until around three to four14 years of age by which they explore the15 world around them. 19 Once children's lead levels are20 high enough, it's necessary to give them21 medicines called chelating agents, which22 take some of the lead, mostly that which23 is in the blood and soft tissues, out of24 their bodies. 2 Many children require multiple courses of3 this chelation and multiple follow-up4 visits and blood draws. 4 Regarding lead hazards in5 properties, I recently performed a study6 evaluating the effectiveness of the7 Philadelphia Lead Court, which was8 created by the City in 2002. 16 In 2002, there was a backlog of17 1,400 properties with identified lead18 hazards that had not been remediated by19 their owners. 3 These study results demonstrate that4 enforcement of orders and codes can be5 difficult and that the City can ask6 property owners to be accountable for and7 responsible for the conditions of the8 properties they are renting. I believe9 that proactive inspections might have10 detected many of these properties before11 a child on the property became exposed to12 lead and developed elevated blood lead13 levels. Therefore, it is essential to14 prevent children's lead exposure in the15 first place. 1 levels. The federal Advisory Committee2 on Childhood Lead Poisoning Prevention,3 which gives advice to the --4 COUNCILWOMAN TASCO:5 Dr. 7

Okay.8

You only9 have two minutes. You've gone over your10 time.11

Then I'll just12 in closing, I will say that the CDC does13 recommend that communities update or14 establish and enforce regulatory15 requirements for lead-safe housing that16 link lead safety to the housing or17 sanitary code.18 And just in closing, since lead19 can impact upon --20 (People talking.)21

Since lead can22 impact upon children's futures, I urge23 you to support the bill so that we can24 have good futures for our children.25 61 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 Thank you.2

Thank you3 very much.4 Just let me remind you that --5 (Applause.)6

We remind7 the witnesses that we have 18 panels with8 about five or six people to each panel.9 So if your discussion is pretty much the10 same, please just summarize it, because11 we've gotten a detail discussion about12 this issue and some of the issues related13 to it, so we just need a summary from14 you. We appreciate your coming to15 testify and taking time to come to16 testify, but we don't have to eat the17 whole cow to know it's beef. Thank you.18

Members of the19 Council, good afternoon. My name is Todd20 Ziegler and I am the Environmental Health21 Programs Manager for the National Nursing22 Center's Consortium, NNCC. It is the23 NNCC's mission to reduce and eliminate24 health disparities in medically25 62 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 underserved communities. NNCC is2 dedicated to the environmental health of3 communities, because we know that people4 need healthy environments to become and5 stay healthy.6 The NNCC created the first home7 visiting program in the nation designed8 to prevent childhood lead poisoning, the9 Lead Safe Babies Program. The Lead Safe10 Babies Program aims to prevent the11 vicious cycle of lead poisoning by12 training community outreach specialists13 to visit families in the highest risk14 communities of Philadelphia. Our15 outreach workers provide primary lead16 prevention education in their clients'17 homes to identify lead hazards and18 connect families to critical remediation19 services to eliminate lead hazards. We20 provide free cleaning supplies and21 standardized education to empower our22 clients with simple and effective lead23 poisoning prevention techniques. We24 believe our program has been instrumental25 63 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 in reducing childhood lead poisoning in2 Philadelphia over the past ten years, as3 we have served over 10,000 families.4 Unfortunately, our program is5 heavily reliant on federal funding, and6 as we all know, federal funding is being7 threatened and cut to a wide range of8 social services and public health9 programs. Current federal funding cuts10 have resulted in the elimination of all11 Lead Safe Babies home visits provided by12 the NNCC outreach staff. We are no13 longer reaching the 1,200 or more14 families every year to provide essential15 lead poisoning prevention education and16 services. We believe these cuts will17 result in an increased number of18 lead-poisoned children in Philadelphia.19 As you know, lead was not20 banned in residential paint until 1978.21 As you also know, Philadelphia has very22 old housing stock. Between 90 and 9523 percent of our houses contain lead-based24 paint. When the paint deteriorates for25 64 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 any reason, the lead is released and2 breaks down into dust. Children are3 particularly high risk for lead poisoning4 due to the high rate of brain development5 and their natural curiosity. Children6 crawl on the floor and touch windowsills,7 places where there's a lot of lead dust,8 then naturally they put their fingers9 into their mouth --10

Your time11 is up.12

-- unknowingly13 poisoning themselves.14 I'd like to close in just15 saying that I've worked for over eight16 years in many capacities to reduce and17 eliminate lead poisoning in Philadelphia18 and have worked directly and indirectly19 with thousands of families who live in20 dilapidated rental properties. The21 families we serve are typically low22 income and from economically23 disadvantaged communities. While the24 focus of our program is primary25 65 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 prevention or preventing children from2 ever being poisoned, our outreach staff,3 myself included, frequently have served4 clients with older children who are lead5 poisoned in rental properties. These6 families struggle with the daily routine7 of providing care for their lead-poisoned8 child, dealing daily with behavior9 problems, special education and the10 stress of raising a family who is11 disadvantaged for life. We also12 contacted and tried to get one of our13 families to come today. However, they14 were concerned about --15

Your time16 is up, sir.17

Okay. Thank you.18

Thank you19 very much.20 (Applause.)21

Who is22 next?23

My name is24 Lynette Lazarus and I am a nurse and I25 66 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 worked in the hospital, and also 25 years2 I just retired as a certified school3 nurse and am now teaching pediatrics to4 nurses at Jefferson University, and I5 want to thank the Committee for working6 so hard in this and for looking at both7 sides. And I worked with children every8 day that had elevated lead levels in the9 hospital. The, I guess, doctor had10 mentioned how painful the chelation is.11 I know you would never want one of your12 children to undergo it. It is extremely13 painful and very difficult to be with the14 children, and it doesn't -- there's still15 that residual effects.16 In the school that I retired17 from, there were 565 students. Over 10018 of them were special education. We had19 an emotional support class and two life20 skills classes and over 100 IEPs every21 year. And if you look on their records22 with the physicals that I received, many23 of these children had elevated lead24 levels, and their effects could be seen25 67 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 every day with their education and with2 their behavior.3 And I think someone had4 estimated about the behavioral costs.5 Community Behavioral Health is being6 overwhelmed by the number of children who7 need wraparounds and many other mental8 health and behavioral health services.9 And I would say the cost of having a10 wraparound for a child probably goes from11 $40,000 to $60,000 a year, and that would12 be just for one child, and that is for13 them to remain in the classroom to be14 managed. And it's something if we can15 prevent this -- because you can't go16 backwards once it's done. And I'd like17 everyone to think that these children in18 the inner city are worth just as much as19 all the other children, and they don't20 have a voice. They do -- most of them do21 have health insurance or they have access22 to the health centers for the immigrant23 children, but the problem is, the parents24 don't often know about what normal growth25 68 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 and development is. They don't often2 recognize the signs. And if they do go3 to a health center, a pediatrician or a4 children's hospital, they will get the5 required lead test for their children.6 If you go to the corner doctor, which7 they're often because it's easier to do,8 they often do not do this.9

Thank you10 very much.11 Next.12 (Applause.)13

I'll be brief, I14 promise.15 My name is Morgan Leafe and I'm16 a pediatrician at Albert Einstein Medical17 Center in North Philadelphia and I'm also18 the coordinator of our hospital's Lead19 Screening Program. I'm here today to20 urge you to support the Lead Paint21 Disclosure bill, which would serve to22 reduce the risk of lead poisoning in our23 most at-risk population.24 At Albert Einstein Medical25 69 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 Center, which for those of you who are2 looking at the maps is in District 9, our3 patient population consists almost4 entirely of low-income families on5 Medicaid, and my current database6 includes 25 children with lead levels7 that are considered dangerous. This is8 currently defined as having a blood lead9 level of greater than ten. However,10 emerging research is telling us that even11 those with levels of lead in their blood12 of less than ten may suffer detrimental13 effects, and these children are not even14 followed.15 The consequences of elevated16 blood lead levels include not only17 physical but also cognitive impairments,18 and that's what I'd like to talk to you19 about today.20 Children with high lead levels21 have a lower IQ and problems with22 attention and hyperactivity. In fact,23 studies have followed children with24 elevated lead levels into adolescence and25 70 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 have shown higher rates of delinquency2 and dropout for these children, which is,3 of course, a huge cost to our society.4 For every ten units above the5 threshold of ten micrograms per6 deciliter, the current high normal, a7 child's lead level rises, his IQ has been8 documented to drop 4.6 points. Even more9 disturbing, recent studies have shown a10 decrease of over seven IQ points as a11 child's lead level rises from one to ten,12 which is the current high normal level.13 Again, children we don't even continue to14 follow. Of course, as you've already15 heard, in its more extreme form, lead16 toxicity also includes symptoms of17 headache, abdominal pain and central18 nervous system involvement.19 I'll end there. Thank you.20

Thank you21 very much.22 (Applause.)23

Thank you. I will24 also be brief. My name is Dr. Caroline25 71 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 Watts and I'm the Coordinator of Special2 Education at the University of3 Pennsylvania Graduate School of4 Education. I'm a licensed psychologist5 who's practiced in public school and6 treatment settings for over 20 years,7 concentrating primarily upon building8 mental health supports in the public9 schools of Boston and Philadelphia.10 As others have said, we know11 very clearly what lead exposure does to12 infants and children. I also want to add13 that it has profound impacts upon adults,14 including reproductive problems, high15 blood pressure and hypertension, nerve16 disorders, memory and concentration17 problems, and muscle and joint pain. So18 this is a toxin that affects all members19 of the family. The damage that's done is20 irreversible and there is no cure. And21 this is an area still where there are22 profound health disparities in this23 country.24 In my work I have focused upon25 72 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 helping individual children, families and2 schools to build students' skills and3 strengths for their academic and social4 success. Children with intellectual and5 behavioral problems often struggle to6 learn, to get along with others, to make7 healthy choices and to manage their8 emotions and actions. We don't always9 know why some children have these10 struggles, and we cannot always solve11 these problems, but in the cases where12 children have been exposed to lead, we do13 know the cause, and this cause is14 something we can do something about.15 This bill asks us to be16 accountable, to document and prove that17 landlords have made living spaces safe18 for children. In the face of what's at19 risk here in terms of very serious,20 long-term, fully preventable health21 impacts, we ask that adults act like22 adults, that they do what may be hard to23 do, but what we know is right and what is24 very much in our power to do.25 73 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 Thank you.2

Thank you3 all very much for your testimony.4 (Applause.)5

We're now6 going to call on Mr. Darrell Zaslow,7 Victor Pinckney, Norman Bey, Jim Sims and8 Steve Yassky.9 (Applause.)10 (Witnesses approached witness11 table.)12

Madam Chairman,13 while our group is assembling, perhaps14 I'll just get right to it.15

Would you16 please just wait a moment.17

Yes, ma'am.18

The Chair19 recognizes Councilwoman Brown.20

Yes. I21 want to -- I would be remiss not to say22 with strict sincerity that my office has23 completely appreciated the 24 months of24 work that we've done, and under the25 74 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 leadership of Mr. Pinckney and2 Mr. Zaslow, all of those that gathered3 around the table across the hall there,4 we've started much farther away 24 months5 ago than where we are now. We've covered6 a lot of ground and actually closed the7 gap in terms of finding some common8 ground.9 So your members need to know10 that you have, in my view, represented11 them well and been huge, huge advocates12 in seeking to minimize the burdensome13 costs that come with trying to make a14 difference for the lives of our city's15 children. So know that my office16 appreciates that.17 Thank you, Madam Chairwoman.18

Thank you.19 Okay. Now, good afternoon, everybody.20 Mr. Zaslow.21

Thank you, Madam22 Chairwoman. I would be remiss if I did23 not return that identical sentiment on24 behalf of everyone cheering and booing in25 75 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 this room. Our relationship with2 Councilwoman Reynolds Brown and her3 staff, Ms. Gilmore, our relationship with4 Councilwoman Tasco and her staff,5 Mr. Green, has been unprecedented,6 appreciated and in every step, we have7 had a fair treatment from all of you, and8 we acknowledge and appreciate that.9 Having said that, I'm not sure10 how we're going to be leaving here today,11 but I know what I thought about when I12 came in. I came here to announce on the13 front page the $50 per month rent14 increase for every single tenant in the15 City of Philadelphia occurring16 immediately.17 (Applause.)18

And if my friends19 and dear colleagues would not clap too20 much for me, even though it sounds good,21 I don't want to eat up our time. We know22 that we like what we're saying.23 (Someone yelling "I'll give him24 my time.")25 76 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1

I further came2 here to announce, after the $50 per month3 rent increase for every unit in the City,4 the abandonment of thousands of units5 throughout our city, most definitely in6 the most vulnerable areas of our city.7 I must confess to you my8 amazement at the shocking claim presented9 to you by my personal friend and10 colleague, Mr. George Gould, who does11 such a good job representing the tenants.12 His words were, There's just a modest13 cost to the landlords. And followed by14 my colleague and friend, Mr. Lord, who15 says that there's only one increase in16 cost, and that's for some test. And17 followed by the claim, which is18 incredible, from a woman I respect most19 highly, Ms. McCauley, a nurse. She has20 done more for children than perhaps any21 of us, and she says, There's only a22 minimal change, simply prove that your23 property is now lead safe. All of this24 ignoring not just the cost of these25 77 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 inspections, which we understand we may2 be tweaking perhaps, but the3 extraordinary cost of remediation, which4 these gentlemen will explain in more5 detail, the Harvard study, $7,000 to6 $15,000; our economic impact study, 6,0007 to 20,000.8 I ask you to examine your9 legislative findings in Chapter 6-800,10 which bring us here, and your first11 finding is -- this is back from 1993 --12 whereas, the City of Philadelphia, City13 Council, finds that there are 65,00014 lead-poisoned children. And here you15 have the advocates saying we're down to a16 thousand and the landlords are 500 of17 them. The entire bill is over 50018 children.19 So what should we do? What can20 be accomplished here? We ask you to21 focus on the other finding in your law,22 our law, Finding No. 9, which is echoed23 again by the Philadelphia Citizens for24 Children and Youth, who do so much, and,25 78 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 that is, there must be an economic2 partnership, public and private economic3 partnership, in recognition of what4 Finding No. 9 says, which is that the5 City Council recognize the exorbitant6 cost of this remediation. It's not just7 testing; it's the cost of remediation.8 We ask you to focus as well on9 the fact that this bill is doing nothing10 for children who reside in homes owned by11 their parents.12 (Applause.)13

We ask that you14 focus on the laws which have been cited15 by the Councilwoman and have been cited16 here today. Rhode Island pertains its17 law to children under the age of six.18 Massachusetts, children under the age of19 six by law. The City of New York,20 children under seven who live in21 multi-family dwellings. This discussion22 about alleged discrimination is a red23 herring. Philadelphia landlords --24 (Applause.)25 79 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1

Philadelphia2 landlords are no worse than -- and I will3 submit to you much better -- than Rhode4 Island or Massachusetts or New York, and5 we will comply with any such law,6 providing that it's not grand mom and the7 middle-aged couple that you're trying to8 deal with but rather the children who are9 affected by this.10 So I'm going to close here,11 because these people have evidence, and12 I've had my say with you, Madam13 Chairwoman and the sponsor of the bill,14 as you well know, over these many months,15 so I will not burden you further with me,16 but I'm going to echo what they all have17 to say.18 I thank you very much for your19 time.20 (Applause.)21

Good22 afternoon. Would you identify yourself23 for the record, please. And remember24 there's a two-minute limit.25 80 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 (People yelling.)2

With all due3 respect, I put a thousand hours into4 researching, and I couldn't tell you5 everything I needed to tell you in four6 hours in a summary. So I need more than7 two minutes.8

You can9 submit the testimony for the record.10

I can't do it in two11 minutes.12 (People yelling.)13

Let me start.14 I want to thank City Council15 for allowing me to speak today on this16 disclosure bill, the Lead Paint17 Disclosure and certification bill.18

Would you19 identify yourself.20

I am. My name is21 Jim Sims. 1 extremely low income, very low income and2 low-income brackets. "8 The following statistics are9 from the Federal Reserve Bank of10 Philadelphia. The impact group11 considered is 78 percent -- again, 7812 percent. Look around all of13 Philadelphia, 78 percent of the housing14 of the renter-occupied housing stock is15 impacted in these groups. Fifty-five16 percent of the group suffers from any17 type of a cost burden, while 35 percent18 suffers from severe cost burdens, which19 means that they pay more than 50 percent20 of their rent -- of their income in rent21 and utilities. That's a significant22 figure. Twenty-five dollars could mean23 the difference between a pair of shoes,24 additional food, cleaning supplies. 4 The recent economy has also5 affected landlords. We have falling6 property values, higher insurance costs,7 higher material costs, higher licensing8 fees, trash fees. 2 You must understand that at3 some point, the additional cost burdens4 that are placed on a landlord will have5 ultimate consequences on the City6 at-large. 11 One of the many reasons HAPCO12 has completed the impact study on Bill13 100011 is the possible or the unleashment14 of devastating and unintended15 consequences on the Philadelphia housing16 market. 19 In a recent conference call20 with the State of New Jersey about21 lead-safe remediation, on average they22 spend between 35 -- this is to get a23 lead-safe certification based on your24 bill. property. We couldn't get loans. Before I move on, I would like7 to state the makeup of the Philadelphia8 housing stock itself. 1 million people. 1 million11 people. In the past 50 years, we have12 lost 27 percent of our population, and13 Philadelphia has not had any plan to14 manage the housing stock downward. 1 standing in Philadelphia, of which2 566,976 units are occupied. Leaves us3 with an unaccounted -- we're unaccounted4 for 94,000 vacant properties for various5 reasons. 12 It's negligent to say that13 landlords cause the blight, and recently14 on the TV, to be quite frank, I'm15 disgusted to see various people get up16 there and point their fingers at17 landlords, thinking a small guy like18 anyone in HAPCO could go and buy blocks19 of property to drive the prices down so20 we could buy something cheaper. 1

We're the ones that2 go into neighborhoods and we take that3 chance of investing into a property and4 bringing it back to life and putting it5 on the tax rolls and take the chances of6 all the unintended consequences like this7 bill has against us. We're8 businesspeople. We want to predict our9 future. And when you start coming at us10 with higher real estate taxes, higher11 license fees, new certifications, it12 destroys our business model.13 (Applause.)14

This bill is like15 other unfunded mandates in the past. In16 the '90s, our contractors were told to17 burn lead out, then they were told --18 they found out that that was dangerous,19 so they were told to chemically strip.20 That didn't work. Then we were told to21 encapsulate. That didn't work. Then we22 were told just paint and clean. I wish I23 could have all the money back that I put24 into unfunded mandates that didn't work.25 87 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 (Applause.)2

It was all wasted3 money, and in some cases what they made4 us do was actually dangerous.5 No. We did what we were told6 to do.7 This leads me to the proposed8 bill. This is a feel-good bill. Since9 landlords already clean and paint their10 properties at turnover time, dust wipes11 only confirm dust levels were acceptable12 for a brief moment.13 Based on recent scientific14 studies, one by the Association between15 soil and lead and blood lead that's16 evidenced by Mark A.S. Laidlaw,17 L-A-I-D-L-A-W, has confirmed that blood18 levels correlate with temperature and19 humidity. One example is, they said in20 the summertime children -- tested their21 hands, sent them out to play, and when22 the children came back, their hands were23 many times higher in contaminated lead24 dust. The children would have been safer25 88 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 playing inside.2 (Applause.)3

Looking at the4 charts -- the first chart there from5 Syracuse, looking at that chart shows the6 blood lead -- the blood level delivery in7 the summer months versus the winter8 months, and you'll see that as the9 temperature gets hotter and dryer,10 children go out to play, the doors and11 windows are open, and blood delivery of12 lead actually goes up in the blood of13 children.14 The other chart that you see15 there is Philadelphia based compared to16 Chicago. Note the bright red. Chicago17 is a bigger city. And look at the red on18 our city. That is all lead contamination19 from factories, automobiles, batteries,20 car weights and lead paint dust on21 abandoned homes.22 (Applause.)23

Abandoned homes are24 a serious problem in this city. As I25 89 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 mentioned, the City of Philadelphia -- I2 didn't mention it, but actually the City3 of Philadelphia is the largest owner of4 abandoned homes. Lead dust peels off5 these houses into the soils and it6 contaminates the soils in the homes that7 I and others have invested in, homeowners8 and landlords alike.9 Lead dust is an extreme10 problem. We're chasing lead paint. And11 I can -- hold on one second.12 Another chart. Here's four13 major cities - Philadelphia, Boston,14 Baltimore and New York. If you look at15 these cities, you see our drop was equal16 to their drop. If you look here on New17 York, which is the blue one, this big18 large white area is all compliance,19 because landlords and homeowners realize20 that paint dust is a problem. This21 little bit that we have down here, it's22 not so little because children are still23 getting poisoned, but attacking and24 continuing to attack paint is going to be25 90 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 like trying to yield gold out of a dead2 gold mine. We have a brand new gold3 mine. The brand new gold mine is dust,4 and the dust is entering our homes, our5 children are crawling on the floors, our6 children are going outside and they're7 playing and they're bringing the dust8 back into their house at a higher level9 than they went out with, not to mention10 in the summertime when those windows are11 open, these houses are getting loaded12 with lead dust.13 This bill is not addressing the14 problem. I propose that we kill this15 bill and that we do something that is for16 real.17 (Applause.)18

Philadelphia has19 been a reactive city. They wait for the20 BPLs to increase in a child and then we21 decide what our plan of attack is. We22 don't have a good educational system for23 tenants, for owners, for landlords.24 Other cities in that chart that I just25 91 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 held up, they all are proactive. They've2 given information out to the tenants, the3 landlords. Not only that, they went out4 and they procured or got grants,5 forgivable loans, and they've put6 hundreds of millions of dollars into7 their housing stock. We as landlords8 have been fighting with no financial help9 for the past 30 years, and we still are10 keeping up with them.11 (Applause.)12

What I propose is13 that we kill this bill and look at this14 opportunity, and I thank the15 Councilwoman --16 (People yelling.)17

Hold on, guys. Hold18 on for a minute.19 I thank the Councilwoman,20 because she's the first one to get all21 the players at the table. Now, we have22 an opportunity in one way. We have all23 the science and the success from past24 cities. We know that -- we can prove we25 92 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 can deliver you lots of scientific2 information that lead dust is where we3 should be looking, and we have an4 opportunity to work together here and do5 something that's really powerful to help6 children.7 (Applause.)8

Thank you very much.9

Thank you10 very much for your testimony.11 Who is next? Who is going to12 testify next?13 Would you move to the table,14 please. The gentleman who just15 testified, Mr. Sims, would you share --16 allow him to sit there.17

Thank you very18 much for allowing me to testify. My name19 is Steve Yassky. I'm a real estate20 investor in Philadelphia. I'm also a21 property manager. I manage properties22 for people who don't have the time -23 carpenters, school teachers, doctors.24 I'd like to start out by25 93 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 quoting Ms. Reynolds Brown in respect to2 her rent increase bill. In quotes, In3 closing, please understand that in no way4 do we want to create an additional cost5 burden on the affected industry. Our6 prevailing goal is to find common ground7 that strengthens existing federal and8 state laws and strengthens the9 enforcement, all while moving towards the10 day of no more lead-poisoned babies and11 children in Philadelphia.12 That is a noble sentiment and13 I'm sure that not one person in this vast14 room wants to see any lead-poisoned15 child. However --16 (Applause.)17

However, it is18 inaccurate when imposing these costs only19 upon the owners of rental properties and20 not upon the houses that are on each side21 of that rental property.22 (Applause.)23

Is it Ms. Brown's24 intention only to protect the children of25 94 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 tenants?2 No matter her lofty ideals, it3 cannot be done. Within the City there4 are over 40,000 boarded up properties5 owned and managed by the City of6 Philadelphia.7 (Applause.)8

Within this city,9 there are tens of thousands of poor10 people who live in their own homes and11 who find it difficult to maintain their12 homes.13 I'm going to tell you a little14 anecdotal story. Seven years ago --15 several years ago, excuse me, I rented a16 home in Overbrook to a woman and her17 15-year-old granddaughter. Unknown to18 me, she let her son move in with his four19 children, and she put them up in her20 basement beside the furnace. One of the21 children tested positive for lead shortly22 after, and the Health Department, doing23 its job, came out and inspected the24 property and gave me a list of repairs to25 95 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 complete. My house was built prior to2 1978 and naturally it had lead paint in3 the house.4 On that list was an item to5 repaint the porch floor and the ceiling.6 Well, the house passed inspection, but7 one of the lead dust clearance wipes8 failed. You see, it was near Christmas9 and they had strung lights out on the10 porch and ran an electric extension cord11 through the living room open window.12 That windowsill had flunked.13 Upon reinspection, I removed14 the extension cord, wiped down the sill15 and locked the window. It passed on the16 second attempt.17 The house immediately to the18 right was owner-occupied and had badly19 deteriorated paint on its porch.20 Ms. Brown's bill does nothing for the21 children of the owner-occupied paint and,22 in essence, asks my tenant to protect her23 grandchildren by keeping the windows24 closed.25 96 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 As a matter of fact,2 Ms. Reynolds Brown and Council knows that3 it would be far better and less4 discriminatory to include all children5 and all homes.6 (Applause.)7

Yet they know --8 of course you know that the voters of9 Philadelphia would never vote for this10 and probably boot you all out of office.11 (Applause.)12

The current plan13 that you offer is like having a14 quarantined room for patients with15 communicable diseases with no doors.16 Lead dust is invasive, and yet our17 country has made real progress since we18 banned lead paint in '76 and leaded19 gasoline in 1985.20 I'm not going to read this21 whole thing because some of it will be22 redundant. However, I would like to say23 that there is new scientific24 documentation here. Lead dust comes from25 97 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 leaded gasoline, which is inherent in the2 soil. During periods of dryness and of3 high temperature, this lead dust just4 scatters everywhere. It comes in through5 the windows. It's really very difficult6 to control the situation.7 When we were to take a lead8 dust clearance wipe, all it is is a9 snapshot in time. It tells us that we10 wiped the house down, the house is clean11 now. Three days later, it can be dirty.12 You can track lead dust in from your13 feet. You walk around the City of14 Philadelphia, you get into the car, you15 put it on your door mats, you put it on16 the car mats, you put it on your car17 seats. You take the kids, take them to18 McDonald's, you bring them home and,19 wa-lah, you have lead dust all over your20 house.21 I'm going to point out one22 thing right now. Back when this bill was23 first brought out in January, members of24 HAPCO came here in an effort to meet with25 98 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 Ms. Blondell Reynolds Brown. At the2 time, she couldn't have a meeting. We3 came here outside Council Chambers in4 March of 2010. There was a piece of5 paint that was hanging off the wall. I6 picked up that paint. I didn't take the7 paint off from the wall. It was already8 dangling 99 percent. I put that piece of9 paint in a baggie. I submitted it to10 Batta Labs, the same laboratories that11 the Department of Health uses, and I12 would like to tell you that it came13 out -- it tested 2,700 percent higher14 than the allowable limit.15 (Applause.)16

Thank you17 very much. Would you please conclude18 your testimony.19

These pictures20 that you see in front of you are pictures21 taken a month and a half ago of a tenant22 who lives in one of my houses. This23 tenant has been living there three years.24 This is a Philadelphia Housing Authority25 99 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 Pennsylvania Housing Voucher house. This2 house is inspected every year. So3 between the time of the last inspection4 and the most current inspection, all of5 this damage was done. This damage is6 done by this woman and her six children.7 You can see -- I believe it's over to the8 left -- the kitchen floor. The kitchen9 floor has never been cleaned. When I was10 there, there was mouse droppings. You11 can see that there is holes in the wall.12 Now, how in the world can you hold13 landlords responsible --14 (Applause.)15

-- for the16 illnesses that hurt children that may17 occur because of her horrific18 housekeeping skills?19 This gentleman over here who20 gave testimony that he came to 1,20021 homes for the baby -- the Lead Safe22 Babies is doing a real service. We as23 members of HAPCO would like to join hands24 with the Department of Health and25 100 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 actually have some sort of plan that2 actually attacks lead dust in the homes,3 but what you are trying to do will do4 nothing but create devastation,5 abandonment and homelessness.6

Thank you7 very much.8

One last -- excuse9 me. Just one last --10

Would you11 summarize your testimony, please. We let12 you go beyond the two minutes.13

I would like to14 tell you that in 2007, Mayor Street and a15 unanimous vote of the City Council gave16 the Health Department the rating of17 commendable, and at the time, that was18 the highest rating that you could give,19 and it was the first rating of20 commendable since the Philadelphia Report21 Card occurred in 2000, and that was based22 on the remarkable progress of lowering23 elevated levels of lead in the blood24 within Philadelphia.25 101 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 Now, three and a half years --2

Sir, would3 you please end your testimony.4

Yes. I'll give5 the floor to the scientist on my left.6 Thank you.7 (Applause.)8

Thank you.9

Good10 afternoon, Chairman Tasco and11 Councilwoman Blondell Reynolds Brown. My12 name is Vincent Bakanauskas. I come here13 today perhaps uniquely qualified to14 testify. A lot of my testimony is15 redundant and I will save your time and16 everyone else's, but I would like to17 point out a couple things.18 First of all, as I said, I'm19 uniquely qualified. I bought my first20 property in Philadelphia 32 years ago. I21 have many properties and, as a landlord22 and a private investor, have dealt with23 the City of Philadelphia in many24 capacities. I'm a licensed real estate25 102 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 agent. I am also a Wharton graduate, so2 I understand a lot of the business impact3 of these bills. I'm a certified lead4 renovator. I've taken the classes. One5 of my companies is EPA certified. I have6 a Master's degree in biology. I worked7 31 years in research laboratories. I8 speak personally here today, not as a9 member of the institution, but I have a10 lot of background in science with11 collection of data and proper ways to do12 so. I have many peer-reviewed13 publications, et cetera.14 Most importantly, my wife of 3115 years is a special ed teacher. She16 teaches these children. She sees the17 impact every day, severely, severely18 impacted children she teaches. I see19 those children. I understand. It's20 decimating to the families. It's21 absolutely devastating. No one in HAPCO22 is saying that one child is -- we all23 agree one child with lead poisoning is24 one child too many.25 103 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 (Applause.)2

And perhaps3 my final qualification is, I'm actually a4 father of a son who got lead poisoning in5 the City of Philadelphia. So I6 understand that blight firsthand. And7 this was back when the threshold was 208 micrograms per deciliter, not ten as it9 is today. So I went through the whole10 city health, my child going through the11 treatment for that and, of course, our12 worries. So I know firsthand more so13 probably than most people here testifying14 today. I can look at this at many15 different angles.16 So the biggest problem I see17 with the bill is, it's not going to work.18 I really think you have to sit down with19 HAPCO -- I thank you and commend you. I20 agree with everyone who spoke earlier21 that you have taken the time, and the22 time that your staff has provided to us23 and unprecedented meetings that we've had24 is fabulous, but we're not there yet.25 104 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 Honest to God, we need more time. This,2 I can tell you as an investor, as a3 businessman and as a scientist, this is4 not addressing the problem.5 Earlier testimony from TURN6 proponents -- I forget the lady who spoke7 this -- said the lead is coming from the8 house. They're completely ignoring the9 other sources of lead. Everyone knows10 there's lead -- yes. Does it contribute?11 Yes. Very specifically, the friction12 surfaces, the windows and doors and lead13 dust from those sources, are probably the14 highest source. The highest outside15 source is the dust, the dust out in the16 environment. There are studies after17 studies after studies -- we provided your18 office with some of these -- that19 absolutely correlate the amount of dust20 bringing into the house.21 Let's just say every HAPCO22 member at the cost of 30, 40, 50, 6023 thousand dollars abates their house,24 takes it out completely. You come in and25 105 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 wipe-test it, we have a lead-free house.2 That house will test positive whether it3 be one month down the road, six months4 down the road, one year down the road.5 It's a snapshot in time, as they said,6 and the dust outside will contaminate it.7 There is just a full library of8 data showing that the outside dust and9 the seasonal variations, correlations10 with lead poisoning in children is a11 major contributor at this point. So you12 really have to address that. You can't13 put the burden of the cost on the14 landlords.15 (Applause.)16

We did not17 put the lead in the soil that continually18 contaminates our property. Even if we19 were to completely abate this, that soil20 will recontaminate our property. That21 adjourning house will recontaminate it.22 A house on Kingsessing Avenue23 recently was torn down. I don't know if24 it was a Philadelphia house or not. No25 106 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 lead protections, no hose, no dust2 control, nothing. That is going right3 into one of these gentlemen's rentals on4 the block.5 You can't hold us responsible.6 We didn't put the gas there. We didn't7 put the lead there. We didn't put the8 lead paint there.9 We proposed a tax that we were10 willing to testify with you and go to the11 state legislators -- I'm sure you will12 recall -- that let's us put a tax on lead13 paint, on paint. We buy a lot of paint.14 I'd be happy to pay a tax on paint that15 would go to some kind of lead fund to16 educate the children, to help the17 children, to help us replace windows, et18 cetera.19 (Applause.)20

I think that21 is fair. Or one-cent-a-gallon tax on22 gasoline. There's other states that are23 doing this. They're making funds to help24 the children, to educate the children and25 107 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 to really correct the problem the way it2 should be corrected.3 This bill, I'm sorry to say --4 I applaud your efforts, but it does not5 address the lead problem, and holding the6 landlords responsible is terrible.7 Everyone here thinks we're rich8 landlords. Most of my properties are9 barely breaking even. There's a lot of10 mom and pops out there --11 (Applause.)12

-- that are13 breaking even, making $100, $200 a year.14 Maybe they're making a thousand dollars a15 year.16

Your time17 is up, sir.18

I'll19 conclude.20 (Audience members yelling.)21

Your time22 is up, please.23

It is not24 fair to make us clean up other people's25 108 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 mess. I am uniquely qualified. I'd have2 to say we need more time and that please3 give us some more time. Table this.4 We'll sit down with you. We'll sit down5 with the Children's Hospital. We'll sit6 down with the Health Department and come7 up with something a little better. This8 is not going to help us when if we9 completely abate something, it could be10 recontaminated and then we have to do it11 all over again when it's recontaminated12 six months down the road, then a year13 down the road, and you're going to ask us14 to abate that problem over and over and15 over again. It's just not fair. We16 didn't cause the problem. Please work17 with us. Sit down with us. Give us some18 more time.19 I'll end there, and thank you20 for your time.21 (Applause.)22

Good afternoon, Madam23 Chair Lady and members of the Committee.24 My name is Norman Bey and I'm a HAPCO25 109 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 Board member.2 I want to first start by saying3 that to hear --4

Excuse me.5 I'm sorry. Did you introduce yourself?6

Yes, I did.7

I'm sorry.8 What is your name?9

Norman Bey.10

Thank you.11 I'm sorry.12

I want to start by13 saying when I first hear the boos and the14 yays in the audience, it further saddens15 me, because the supporters of this bill16 and the people who are opposing this bill17 are members of the same community.18 I don't think that there's one19 landlord in the City that can stomach the20 notion that a child is actually testing21 for lead levels and it's reducing their22 capacity to learn and affecting them. So23 when I hear the supporters of the bill24 cheer or boo or the members who are25 110 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 opposed to the bill cheer and boo,2 remember, we are members of the same3 community. We have a common goal.4 The issue is that this bill5 will not bear the fruit that it's6 designed to. The issue is lead dust, as7 everyone has testified to. I think that8 you need to do a little more research and9 find that you will understand that lead10 dust is really the issue. We're just --11 I'm a little nervous. But what we're12 appearing to be doing is putting a13 Band-Aid on a bullet wound. It may slow14 the bleeding down, but it's not going to15 stop. We have to remove the bullet. And16 what I mean by that is is that the impact17 surfaces in houses are causing lead dust18 as well.19 You have a unique opportunity20 to pioneer a program in a cooperative21 manner with the landlords and the other22 organizations that testified today to23 actually reduce the lead dust by24 removing -- designing a program that25 111 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 landlords can participate in financially2 and removing those impact surfaces over a3 10- or 15-year period. That would4 actually help reduce the lead-based paint5 poisoning in the City.6 I'm not going to speak much7 longer because it's mostly redundant, but8 I think that this bill will not work. I9 think that the best approach to it will10 be to actually focus on the issue at11 hand, which is the dust. We all12 understand that the dust wipe, again,13 it's a snapshot in time. It will pass14 today and fail tomorrow.15 So if your real goal,16 Ms. Brown, is to reduce lead levels in17 kids, we need to get serious and put a18 serious plan together. We all know that19 this will not work.20 Thank you.21 (Applause.)22

Thank you.23

My name is Willie24 Seward. I'm a member of HAPCO. However,25 112 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 I'm testifying today on behalf of the2 real estate industry. I'm a licensed3 real estate broker for more than 404 years. I have managed properties. I5 have managed properties for HUD back to6 the lead paint days. I managed over 5007 properties for HUD during the time the8 City of Philadelphia could not sell9 properties because of the lead paint. I10 think attorney George Gould would know11 very well how that happened.12 Here I noticed unfortunately we13 have a pamphlet, before I go further,14 that was given to the people, but we15 don't have -- HAPCO doesn't have any16 statements in there of the work they have17 done or anything of that nature with18 everything --19 (Audience members yelling20 "louder.")21

I thought I talked22 loud enough. However, still closer.23 So hopefully somewhere along24 the line some of the information that25 113 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 HAPCO put out, not that -- I'm more or2 less talking. I am a member, but I'm3 speaking on behalf of my knowledge as a4 real estate manager, a licensed real5 estate broker.6 I've been located in the North7 Philadelphia area for over 40 years. I8 manage the low-income properties.9 They're mostly moms and pops. However,10 we can't raise rents and/or -- because of11 the neighborhood and the income of the12 tenants in the neighborhood. Some of13 these tenants already pay 40 to 5014 percent of their income in housing.15 That's no way, there's nothing that they16 will know. A lot of these tenants know17 nothing about cleaning. I'll get to18 something of that effect in a minute.19 They have children. They're20 raising children. They're young.21 They're not, unfortunately, like the22 tenants I knew 30 years ago.23 I believe this bill was24 written -- matter of fact, I will say I25 114 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 believe this bill was written with good2 intent, to help the children. However,3 it won't service what the intention is.4 Nobody or I would want to see a child5 that have lead-based paint.6 Now, at one of the hearings, a7 lady testified right here that had she8 had more knowledge of what to look for9 when she went in to look for an10 apartment, that she would never -- her11 kid would have never had lead-based12 paint. I have testified here that13 tenants need counseling. That will do14 more good than renovating and spending15 all the money and testing, because the16 tenant will get in there and do nothing17 but gather and leave the dust.18 Ladies and gentlemen, you ask19 your voters, you know, vote for me, I'll20 help you when you got a problem. Well,21 you're creating a problem now for your22 voters. These same -- especially the23 ones that are living and own properties24 in the low-income areas. I know that the25 115 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 properties in that area was built prior2 to 1978. So it's a good possibility that3 they do contain lead-based paint.4 I believe that the Health5 Department states that the paint must be6 removed if it tests -- I'm going to try7 to meet your time limit.8

Please do.9

But, however, it10 can cost 30, 40 and all kinds of money.11 Now, it means that if you pass12 this bill, that's the important part, as13 it is written, you will cause more14 properties to become vacant and15 vandalized and will never see the market16 again. You will also cause Susie Brown17 and her kid not to be able to find a unit18 to live in, because there will be no19 units.20 (Applause.)21

You will cause22 Susie Brown to go to a shelter that's23 full. Now she can't get in the shelter.24 You will cause them to be homeless. Now25 116 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 little Junior, Jimmy, he won't be able to2 go to school because he have no address.3 This is what can happen if this4 bill is passed. You will create, you5 will create a shortage of housing. It's6 been told -- and I won't get into it --7 that we have to live and remodel by the8 EPA regulation. That itself is a9 problem, but we have to do it.10 Maybe we can ease the pain.11 Education. What good does it do, as I12 said before, to spend all this money13 doing this over and to maintain a14 property and yet it would do more good to15 amend this bill, allowing a landlord to16 rent a unit to a family that have a17 certificate of counseling without costly18 inspection, because the tenant will know19 what to do and how to clean, and that20 way, the tenant can get -- and21 counseling, by the way, in case you don't22 know, is free. They can get free23 counseling.24 If you will do that -- allow25 117 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 the inspections to be visual. Don't need2 anything else but clean, smooth and3 tight. Exempt properties built after4 March 1978.5 I recommend that you table this6 bill for further study. The tenant will7 win because he will have more units to8 rent. The landlord will win because he9 won't have to abandon the property. The10 City will win because the landlord will11 still pay taxes on the properties.12 Ladies and gentlemen, thank13 you. Ladies, thank you for the time.14

Thank you15 very much.16 (Applause.)17

One short18 statement. This pamphlet, by the way,19 have to be given to each tenant more or20 less, this type of pamphlet. So we21 are --22

Your time23 is up, Mr. Seward. Let's get the24 pamphlet and we'll keep it up here for25 118 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 the record.2 Thank you so much.3

Hello. My name is4 Harvey Spear. I want to thank the panel,5 Chairman and Councilwoman and those6 involved for giving me an opportunity to7 speak.8 I just want to say that9 initially when this bill was introduced,10 I was in shock because of all the damage11 that it was apt to do. Believe me, my12 children own a children's enrichment13 center. I'm the first one to care about14 children, and they have a large15 investment, and I have an investment in16 apartments.17 I just want to thank18 Councilwoman Blondell Reynolds Brown for19 being fair. She listened to us for over20 a year. Our study that we paid for took21 almost a year to complete. She waited22 for us, and hopefully this bill will come23 out in a way that we all can live with.24 When it first came out, I don't25 119 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 understand the logistics, but I know in2 my own business, speaking on my own3 account, I have about 35 buildings and I4 have about 300 apartments, and I don't5 know any way that I can have a third6 party do an inspection for lead paint --7 first of all, I don't have many children8 in my units. I might have 5 percent. If9 I do an inspection, it would take a month10 to get the results. People will go to11 other neighborhoods. They will not stay12 in Philadelphia. All my apartments are13 in Center City Philadelphia, and we will14 lose tenants to the neighboring15 communities, neighboring counties.16 So I will say this, that please17 think about the fact that if we have to18 do these type of third-party inspections,19 that people can go across to the other20 counties, Delaware County, across City21 Line Avenue, find housing.22 And I just want to say the23 other thing is, the fact that I do not24 have any children in my buildings and25 120 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 there are many people that don't have2 many children, there are three or four3 states that were mentioned prior to this4 that do have bills that exclude5 inspections where you do not have6 children. I'm more than willing to do7 whatever is necessary to protect8 children, but I think it's a little bit9 overboard.10 But, again, I want to thank11 Councilwoman Tasco and Sanchez and Goode12 and especially Councilwoman Blondell13 Reynolds Brown for being fair about this14 bill.15

Thank you.16 Thank you for coming in to testify.17 (Applause.)18

Good afternoon,19 Chairman Tasco, Councilwoman Brown and20 Councilwoman Sanchez. I will try to be21 brief. You've been here a while.22

We're23 going to be here a while.24

I am quite25 121 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 familiar with lead --2

Would you3 tell us who you are.4

I am Victor H.5 Pinckney, Sr. I'm the President of6 HAPCO.7 I'm quite familiar with8 elevated lead levels in children, because9 my sister had it when I was -- when we10 were young. My wife also had it. It's11 probably the reason why I was able to get12 her.13

This14 testimony will have a record, a written15 record. So now you'd better be careful.16 (Laughter.)17

I'll try to get18 the tapes.19 Both of them grew up in20 owner-occupied homes, just to give you21 some idea.22 Everyone here is in agreement23 with the devastating effects that24 exposure to lead dust has on children.25 122 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 We commend City Council and the2 Councilwoman for taking action, but I3 must point out that this bill as4 currently constructed fails to adequately5 address the issue, since 60 percent of6 dust in houses come from the outside.7 There are actually studies showing that.8 It does not address the issues9 of exposure, and places a financial10 burden on owners and tenants of rental11 properties. It will make the problem12 worse by causing increases in expenses to13 property owners, which will be passed on14 to tenants, when cleaning and diet will15 make a bigger difference.16 By passing this bill, it will17 cause the landlords to have all18 properties inspected for lead dust19 whether it is necessary or not. The20 current cost for this inspection is21 approximately $450 per visit. However,22 we feel that the price will probably go23 up if this bill is passed.24 And one other thing, everybody25 123 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 keeps banning about this 375, 450, 5002 dollar price. Nobody is taking into3 consideration that when the property4 fails that first test, which is a good5 chance it will since the dust is coming6 from outside, you have to kick out7 another 450, 375 to have it done all over8 again.9 (Applause.)10

14 The EPA themselves estimate that it will15 take three to five years before there are16 enough inspectors to thoroughly service17 the region. If the inspector's findings18 are unfavorable, the landlord is then19 obligated to follow up with another20 inspection. If remediation is needed,21 that's an additional expense. 3 years in a rental property,6 tenants will probably see a $50 increase7 in their monthly rent. This is an8 increase that most Philadelphia families9 cannot afford to incur, as they live at10 or teeter dangerously close to the11 poverty line. 14 More importantly, remediation15 cannot ensure a long-term solution to16 lead dust exposure. The presence of lead17 dust in homes is often caused by factors18 beyond a landlord's control and also the19 tenant's control - the use of lead paint20 in industrial buildings, lead soldered in21 pipes, lead water lines, exhaust from22 leaded gas in cars, which has now23 contaminated the soil. 11 As previously stated, many of12 the low- to moderate-income families that13 we serve cannot afford an increase in14 their monthly rent. 2 By no means am I suggesting3 that the issue of lead exposure go4 unaddressed. 8 We explored some ideas with a City9 Councilmember. We also had talked to the10 Democratic Chairman of Pennsylvania11 Housing and Urban Affairs Committee in12 Harrisburg. He was receptive to the idea13 providing grants and zero-interest loans14 to homeowners who had to undergo15 large-scale repairs to properties funded16 by a surcharge of 50 cents a gallon on17 paint sold in Pennsylvania. 1 percent in a child who already has2 elevated lead. 1

Thank you2 all for your testimony.3 (Applause.)4

We're5 going to have now -- is Mr. Howard Tucker6 here?7

Yes. I'm here.8

Would you9 please come over and present your10 testimony.11 Then we have -- the next panel12 will be the Apartment Association of13 Greater Philadelphia, Christine Gertz;14 Jim Sherman; James White; Richard Moore.15 Would you be prepared to testify after16 Mr. Tucker. And then do we have Ms.17 Jerilynn Radcliffe? Is she here?18 (No response.)19

Nathan20 Blum and Tom Vernon.21 (Witnesses approached witness22 table.)23 COUNCILWOMAN TASCO:24 Mr. Tucker, would you please have a seat25 129 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 and present your testimony.2 Those of you who are leaving,3 would you do so quietly, please, so we4 can proceed with the testimony.5 Mr. Tucker, please, if you6 could summarize your testimony.7

Absolutely.8

Thank you.9

Good afternoon.10 Good evening now, Councilwomen. My name11 is Howard Tucker. I'm the Outreach12 Coordinator representing the Neighborhood13 Interfaith Movement. Our mission and14 vision are the Interfaith Movement is a15 40-year and growing non-sectarian16 coalition of over 58 religious17 congregations - Christian, Jewish,18 Unitarian and Muslim - and the faith19 institutions that are near to Northwest20 Philadelphia, and we are unique among21 interfaith groups nationwide. NIM22 engages in direct service on behalf of23 faith communities that it represents.24 What we do, we work with a25 130 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 neighborhood-based, family-centered2 approach increasing access to quality3 child care. We raise public awareness of4 the importance of early learning, help5 children get ready for school, improve6 the quality of child care in the centers,7 influence the public policy and funding8 for early learning, and contribute to the9 economic development of the community,10 and we are here in support of the bill.11 And not to go through all the12 testimony that happened before as far as13 the reasons according to the CDC, the14 main reason that we're sitting here at15 this table -- and I had an opportunity to16 listen to the pro and the cons -- we,17 with the Neighborhood Interfaith18 Movement, challenge and accept and19 welcome those within the business20 community to sit at the table with us and21 come up with strategies that work within22 the community.23 The exposure to lead can have a24 wide range of effects, as we've already25 131 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 heard, but as a renter, parents don't2 know and have no idea of the lead levels3 that are exposing their children, and4 they also may be very concerned when they5 find out that those lead levels could6 lead to their child being expelled from7 child care facilities. And we're finding8 that the expulsion rates in child care9 facilities are rising within West and10 North Philadelphia, which by your maps11 have high levels of lead. We haven't12 figured out if there's a correlation13 between that particular statistic and14 what we're seeing as far as kids being15 expelled, but we're looking at these16 symptoms that are part of lead17 poisoning - irritability, challenging18 behaviors and also too not being able to19 pay attention - and we're figuring out20 there might be some kind of correlation.21 So we're really asking, one,22 that there is a lot of pro and cons23 within this particular bill and that you24 continue to look at it. We support the25 132 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 bill, but we also support sitting down2 with the business community and coming up3 with reasonable alternatives. Parent4 engagement is important.5 (Applause.)6

Parent engagement7 is important, and that's what we do as8 part of the interfaith community. We9 have access to 58 congregations. We10 think there's a balanced approach, but we11 also think if we do nothing and children12 are allowed to die because there's13 nothing done because no one wants to pay14 for it, that's morally reprehensible.15 So, therefore, we're asking,16 we're asking, we're asking, we're asking17 with all that we have, can we eliminate18 lead poisoning and exposure in19 Philadelphia and lower the medical costs20 and testing, and also too, as the21 business community was saying, figure out22 ways of supporting them and making these23 costs lower? Also, too, protect young24 children from serious development delays,25 133 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 which costs our system hundreds of2 thousands of millions of dollars every3 year. And also, too, those challenging4 behaviors, Johnny, Rashid, Kameeka,5 they're not always bad. They might be6 poisoned and we just don't know it.7 Thank you.8

Thank you9 very much.10 (Applause.)11

We have12 the next panel, Ms. Christine Gertz,13 Mr. White. Go ahead, Mr. White.14

Thank you, Madam15 Chair, and good afternoon and thanks for16 the opportunity to testify. My name is17 James White and I am the Policy18 Coordinator of the Philadelphia19 Association of Community Development20 Corporations. 11 Stricter enforcement is both12 important and potentially harmful. It is13 encouraging in that these certificates14 may indicate increased efforts to create15 healthy housing for children who are more16 likely to live in deteriorating housing17 and are thus at greater risk for lead18 poisoning. 18 According to a study performed19 by the University of Pennsylvania, the20 City needs at least 60,000 affordable21 housing units to meet the demand. 3 We believe and we are4 recommending, PACDC, that the City5 creates a pool of resources to assist6 property owners to comply with this7 bill's regulatory requirements and8 preserve the number of quality rental9 homes in our city. Several states and10 cities have existing subsidies and11 programs to lower the cost of treatment12 for property owners. For instance,13 Massachusetts offers a tax credit to14 property owners and renters. 1 homeowners and landlords in reducing the2 risk of lead poisoning and preserve the3 housing stock by reducing or eliminating4 lead-based hazards. 8 The City of Baltimore offers a9 Lead Abatement Action Program that10 provides funds to property owners to11 renovate residential and rental12 properties to make them lead safe. 15 A number of other neighboring16 states who have all passed similar strict17 enforcement legislation have also come up18 with creative solutions to provide19 funding to property owners. 3

Thank you.4 (Applause.)5

The Chair6 recognizes Councilwoman Sanchez.7 COUNCILWOMAN SANCHEZ:8 Mr. White, you talked about Massachusetts9 and some of the other folks. Is that a10 one-to-one refund on their property taxes11 or on their business privilege taxes?12

This is on their13 property taxes, ma'am.14

And it's15 a full abatement for the total costs --16

Yeah, but --17

The18 average range is between, as we've heard19 from the private industry, is between20 7,000 and 15,000 on abatements.21

Yes, ma'am.22

So they23 would be entitled to a dollar-to-dollar?24

Mm-hmm. But, I25 139 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 mean, in the Commonwealth of2 Pennsylvania, are we not the first city?3 And I think we know how to creatively4 come up with constructive solutions to5 help resolve our current problem.6

Will we7 need state authorizing legislation to do8 that?9

My understanding is10 that folks have worked with some of the11 members of the Urban Affairs Committee to12 look into providing such legislation, but13 I imagine we would to create such a pool,14 ma'am. But I'd be willing to and members15 of our organization are always at your16 service to help in figuring out how we17 can do this.18

Okay.19 Thank you.20

Thank you.21

Thank you22 very much.23 Now we have the Apartment24 Association of Greater Philadelphia.25 140 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1

Thank you so much.2 Good afternoon.3

Good4 afternoon.5

9 My name is Christine Young10 Gertz. I'm the Government Affairs11 Director for the Apartment Association of12 Greater Philadelphia. A number of my13 members are with me today. 1 I want to tell you, the2 Apartment Association of Greater3 Philadelphia, their members are comprised4 of managers and developers and builders5 and owners of apartment communities, and6 most of my job every day is to eliminate7 the fact that our members play by the8 rules and our Association stress complete9 compliance with all health and safety,10 all regulations regarding anything that11 has to do with health and safety or12 property management, including lead13 paint. And I appreciate all the time14 we've had, and, yes, we've talked and15 we've been at meetings talking about this16 bill, but I have to tell you, we're just17 not there yet and we need to talk some18 more, because the bill and the amendments19 as were distributed about a week ago20 simply don't work. housing to thousands of Philadelphians2 who do the job right. We need to fine-tune this bill4 so that its provisions help those that5 it's intended to help without doing6 irreparable harm to everybody else, and7 that includes every single renter in the8 City of Philadelphia. So I'll just again9 quickly go through. 11 This bill will hurt those it's12 supposed to help. 16 Now, we have to consider the17 cold, hard facts of what it takes to18 provide low-cost rental housing, decent19 low-cost rental housing, without20 exception. The margins on moderately21 priced units are extremely slim. 1 lenders are reluctant to deal with2 properties whose net operating costs are3 compromised by spiraling expenses. That4 leads to less investment in improvements5 and maintenance, which leads to a decline6 in the quality of the housing. 11 Make no mistake, this bill will12 reduce the number of decent, affordable13 housing on the market. It's not14 fine-tuned to answer the problem without15 causing more harm. 17 As providers of decent,18 affordable rental housing leave the19 market, the number of rental owners who20 operate under the radar will swell, and21 we all know that's really where the22 problem is. 1 lead exposure can be found. Law-abiding2 rental owners whose units are cleaned and3 free of deteriorating paint are not the4 ones causing the problem. It's the5 unlawful rental owners who fail to6 maintain their properties that present7 the hazard, the remaining hazard to8 children. 13 We know that federal and local written14 disclosure and notice of lead paint15 hazards are already required, strict16 notice and documentation requirements for17 new residents. Leases are in effect --18 and I brought samples today. 1 Home, which is distributed by every2 law-abiding landlord in the City. We3 make these available to our members. And4 I've also brought copies of the notice5 requirements in the City's pamphlet,6 Partners for Good Housing. 8 And I want to stress again, the9 Apartment Association stresses complete10 compliance with the law, and we work very11 hard at education of our members and12 advancing the cause of responsible13 property management. )19

Inspections are20 already available. The Property21 Maintenance Code and the Certificate of22 Rental Suitability Ordinance requires23 rental owners to maintain their property24 free from defects that affect25 147 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 habitability, and that includes lead2 paint hazards as well. The City3 Department of Licenses and Inspections4 cannot issue rental inspection licenses5 if hazards, including those from lead6 paint, are present, if they exist.7 Current Pennsylvania law recognizes an8 implied warranty of habitability and9 requires rental owners to maintain10 facilities and services vital to life,11 health and safety. Lead paint exposure12 is clearly included in that as well.13 And, again, it's the14 law-abiding -- the majority of landlords15 in the City providing homes to thousands16 of Philadelphians, to seniors, to17 students, to families who have children,18 to single folks, to everybody who's going19 to be cast in this very heavy, wide net.20 Their costs have got to go up and,21 therefore, their rents have got to go up22 to all those people.23 And I wonder if the bill at24 this juncture could realistically be25 148 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 enforced given the current resources of2 the City's Department of Health and the3 Department of License and Inspections.4 If the remaining cases of lead5 exposure are to be eliminated, Council6 should allow for adequate resources to7 those departments and their budgets to do8 the job with the laws in place. That9 could work. The focus at this point10 should be making current law work. This11 bill will only drive law-abiding rental12 owners out of the City, defeated by its13 unnecessary expense and regulatory14 burdens.15 We don't want a single16 additional child to suffer from exposure17 to lead paint hazards. We all know the18 real problem lies with irresponsible19 owners of substandard rental housing. It20 makes no sense to make the job of21 providing decent rental housing harder22 for those who play by the rules and are23 not a part of the problem.24 Let's meet again about this25 149 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 bill. I know we've been talking about2 it, but the job just isn't finished.3 Let's meet again. Let's talk some more.4 Let's really consider the unintended5 consequences. Let's consider what this6 bill will do to every renter in the City7 of Philadelphia, who is already trying to8 make ends meet. Let's think about it and9 truly look for workable solutions.10 And I'll end it there, because11 many of the points I wanted to make today12 have already been made. I again thank13 you for your time, and I honestly look14 forward to continued dialogue. I urge15 you to continue talking with us about16 making this a better bill, which I17 promise to do and willing to do.18 Thank you. I apologize for the19 voice.20 (Applause.)21

Thank you.22 Thank you for your testimony, and you23 really were struggling with your voice.24

I'm sorry for my25 150 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 voice. Thank you.2

Sir, could3 summarize your testimony.4

I will summarize as5 quickly as possible.6

Identify7 yourself, please.8

My name is Richard9 Moore. I am a real estate broker and10 property manager with 30 years'11 experience. I'm a member of several of12 the organizations that testified before13 you today. But, most important, I'm a14 parent who understands that lead15 poisoning is a very serious issue.16 In the 1990's I served over a17 year on the Mayor's Lead Paint Task18 Force. Long before that time I was19 vigilant in ensuring that every property20 that I own took proper procedures and21 proper care to reduce lead hazards. It's22 just the replacement windows, making sure23 the floors had cleanable surfaces, not24 used carpeting and many other procedures.25 151 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 Therefore, I don't personally have much2 of a problem with this current ordinance3 on the surface.4 We all know the amount of lead5 cases in Philadelphia has dramatically6 reduced from the testimony today over the7 past ten years. I know we can all agree8 that even one child being poisoned in our9 city is one child too many. I do,10 however, have grave concerns about the11 serious repercussions this ordinance may12 cause in the residential industry as a13 whole, and this will in turn affect the14 entire real estate market in the City.15 It is my feeling that if this16 ordinance were written and take effect as17 it is now, that many small investors in18 panic would place their buildings up for19 sale. This will in turn create a glut of20 rental housing that will be sold all at21 one time. This, coupled with the22 downturn of our economy, as well as the23 reluctance of banks and other lending24 institutions to lend especially on25 152 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 properties that are low- and2 moderate-income, will create a spiral3 turn. This will in turn create a market4 for cash-hungry investors and large5 investment organizations such as the ones6 that are traded on Wall Street to7 purchase, manage a majority of our rental8 housing. We all know that would be a9 mistake.10 Since investment real estate is11 well over a third of the overall housing12 in the City, the dramatic reduction of13 sales price if these properties turn will14 drastically reduce the sale of other15 owner-occupied properties and ruin our16 tax base. I believe this whole grim17 scenario could be avoided by merely18 taking three steps.19 Number one, instead of passing20 this ordinance with one-year waiting21 period before the implementation, this22 Committee should continue to meet with23 all the organizations affected by this24 law to develop a strategy to ensure that25 153 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 legislation is passed in Harrisburg to2 shield responsible property owners and3 managers from liability suits, which is4 currently not the case. We all know that5 the insurance industry as a whole omits6 coverage.7 Number two, we must develop a8 plan to phase in the lead certification9 and compliances in the areas most10 affected by lead hazards.11 Number three, we must ensure12 that we have enough inspectors and13 inspection labs so that we can make -- to14 ensure that the turnaround time of rental15 properties is kept to a minimum.16 These three points, if they're17 addressed over the next year, would in18 turn -- there would be no need for a19 waiting period. In essence, just make it20 effective immediately one year.21 If this Committee chooses to22 continue to meet in the task force23 setting, I'd be happy to help out in any24 way I possibly could.25 154 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 I thank you for the ability to2 give the testimony today, and that's all3 I have.4

Thank you5 very much for coming down to testify.6 (Applause.)7

You're not8 Jim Sherman, are you?9

No, but I can be10 anybody you want me to be.11

You are?12

Miriam Shapiro.13

Okay.14

Mine is really15 about two minutes and not redundant.16

All right.17

This was written18 by an admirer of the late Dr. Seuss, who19 didn't die from lead poisoning.20 Blondell Reynolds' Blunder.21 The lead paint is gone, the22 numbers are down, so take this lead bill23 to another town.24 If money is what the City25 155 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 needs, then go after the deadbeats and2 leave us alone, please.3 We're not independently4 wealthy. We don't all live in big homes.5 Give back City perks and leave us alone.6 The rents will go up,7 low-priced housing goes down. They'll be8 pitching more tents on the streets of9 downtown.10 There's no more lead paint.11 There will always be dust. We didn't12 make it, so don't punish us.13 Go after the makers like the14 tobacco laws did. Go after the makers15 and not just us landlords to protect all16 the kids.17 Burden the makers to make it18 just right. Go after the makers you19 thought you could trust. This lead paint20 issue as written is really a bust.21 We're all willing to cooperate,22 but just not the way it's done right now.23 In addition, Mayor Nutter, the24 Motown deejay, should be going on the25 156 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 radio and saying he wants to help all the2 children in Philadelphia, in every area3 of the City, to have a healthy and safe4 place, including places where the5 children spend lots of time, like6 Philadelphia public schools, where in7 fact the paint is chipping down.8 (Applause.)9

Philadelphia10 public libraries -- I've been hit with11 those chips of paints.12 Philadelphia public libraries,13 the parks, the playgrounds and private14 homes.15 And he should not go on a radio16 station and say he loves the Doc and17 Andie Show. It's all country music, and18 we know it ain't so, that this is his19 favorite type of music.20 And I just want to close with21 two questions. Aren't there lead pipes22 all over the City of Philadelphia?23 Aren't there refineries in Philadelphia?24 How can you say that the damage being25 157 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 done to this children is from the2 landlords' lead paint? The refineries,3 all their chemicals have already been4 buried in the ground and are just coming5 back now as dust.6 My second question is directed7 to the people behind me with the signs8 up. Most of them I assume are parents.9 And why are these people here fighting10 for this bill and not at 400 North Broad11 Street fighting for the safety in their12 children's public schools or the charter13 schools?14 (Applause.)15

The Philadelphia16 public schools are your number one17 institution in the entire City against18 the health and safety of its people and19 its children. Even Steve Yassky20 presented earlier that he found a chip of21 paint in here. And I don't remember the22 numbers. It was a big digit number that23 was way above the approved lead paint24 maximum amount. And this is where the25 158 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 issues lie, not just with the landlords.2 They're in public buildings as well, and3 we can't solve everybody's problem.4 We're willing to help, but the public5 schools are one of the biggest crime6 problems in the City as far as this goes.7 (Applause and booing.)8

We thank9 you for your testimony. We invite you10 back in March and April so that you can11 show your passion and concern towards12 Philadelphia's public school children.13 Today is about lead, and I would --14

But the school15 buildings are full of lead and asbestos.16

I'm not17 going to debate you. My role is not to18 debate you. My ask is that you will19 follow the example of the leaders of20 HAPCO and other apartment associations21 and treat people the way you want to be22 treated, starting with my staff.23 Thank you.24 (Applause.)25 159 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1

I was very nice2 to your staff on the phone. I was very3 nice to your staff on the phone.4

Good5 afternoon. Would you state your name for6 the record, please.7

Yes. It's a8 privilege to be here. I'm Dr. Tom9 Vernon. I was formerly the Director of10 the Colorado Department of Health and the11 Environment, the equivalent of the12 Secretary of the Department of Health in13 Pennsylvania.14 I want to say first that I15 agree entirely with the testimony given16 by Nan Feyler, including her passion.17 This is an issue that we in public health18 can deal with, and we should have19 completely eliminated lead poisoning20 among children many years before now.21 I've spent my career in public22 health searching for ways through public23 policy to improve our health, and it's24 been vaccination requirements for25 160 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 schools, seatbelts, child seat2 restraints, smoking bans in public3 places. All of those have been met with4 opposition because of cost. It has5 always been the opposition. But minimal6 cost, the cost of a shot, the cost of a7 seat restraint and the like. But look8 how much better we are off now because of9 the efforts we've made through public10 policy in improving the health status of11 our children.12 With the exception of childhood13 vaccines, I have to say that as far as14 this bill goes, it's the best buy that I15 have seen in a long time for improving16 children's health.17 Now, I do want to comment on18 something that was stated earlier. It19 astonishes me that because there is lead20 dust outside of the house, that it would21 be claimed that the lead dust inside of a22 house with deteriorated paint in it is a23 result of the lead dust that's coming24 from outside the house. That's simply25 161 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 passing the buck to something else that2 has to be dealt with as well. And so3 this bill will go some way toward what we4 need to do.5 Now, one added point that has6 not been made. I want you to know that7 we are going to be looking at what is8 perceived as a new epidemic in childhood9 lead poisoning in the very near future.10 An advisory committee to the Childhood11 Lead Poisoning Program at the Centers for12 Disease Control is recommending a13 dramatic reduction in the lead level14 which becomes the federal standard for15 lead poisoning. We've talked about16 almost a thousand children who have been17 poisoned in Philadelphia in a year.18 That's at the ten microgram level, which19 has been around for some time. This20 reduction will be to five micrograms or21 less, and we will shortly be looking at a22 substantial number of children who are23 labeled now as poisoned who were not24 before, a lot more than 946, or what the25 162 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 exact number was.2 Finally, on a very tough point.3 All of us in public health are struggling4 with the issue of health disparities,5 those major disparities among racial6 groups, particularly between whites and7 blacks. We have virtually solved that8 problem in childhood vaccinations and the9 prevention of childhood preventable10 diseases. We can solve that problem with11 childhood lead poisoning, and this12 legislation will help.13

Thank you14 very much.15 (Applause.)16

Just a17 moment.18 Councilwoman Brown.19

Yes. We20 simply need to underscore your interest21 and your willingness to travel from afar22 and affirm what you've heard on -- are23 you -- you're not from Colorado?24

Let me be clear.25 163 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 I moved into Councilman Clarke's district2 20 years ago.3

Welcome4 back. Your interest is appreciated, and5 it does take varying perspectives from6 all sides of the issue to move to a7 neutral position where we're going to not8 change the world, but make a dent of a9 difference for kids that we say we care10 about.11 Thank you.12 (Applause.)13

Mr. Roy14 Wade, Dr. Roy Wade, and Dr. Nathan Blum,15 Dr. Jerilynn Radcliffe and Sherrie South,16 if they're still here.17 (No response.)18

Okay.19 Moving on, we will now have Mr. Alan20 Folkman, Justin Moore, Al Brown, Steve21 Schatz and Mack Duncan.22 (Witnesses approached witness23 table.)24

Thank you25 164 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 all for coming. You've been here. I've2 watched you all afternoon, and you've3 heard the testimony, and we will keep4 your testimony to two minutes. Thank5 you. Whoever.6

Hello. I guess7 I'm up. My name is Steve Schatz. I'm8 one of the little guys here. I'm a small9 landlord. I have five properties, mostly10 in the Center City Philadelphia area, and11 I'm asking you to reconsider this bill,12 possibly table it and work with the13 landlord and real estate community to14 come up with something that would really15 protect kids.16 I've got a written statement,17 but I supposed that you heard enough18 leaden statements today that you don't19 want to hear another one, so let me kind20 of speak off the cuff as best I can.21 The things that this bill will22 not do: You say it will make a dent, but23 from my perspective, it will be a small24 dent. After you pass this bill, there25 165 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 will be thousands of unlicensed landlords2 in the City of Philadelphia who will3 continue to abuse the properties and4 their tenants that will not be affected5 by this bill.6 This bill does not touch the7 many tens of thousands of homes that are8 owner-occupied and may be sources of lead9 contamination for children. It seems to10 me if you really want to have a11 comprehensive program to protect kids,12 looking at owner-occupied homes and13 educating their owners and the children14 is an important step.15 This bill will not eliminate16 lead from where children work and play.17 Nothing in this bill attends to the issue18 of lead in the public schools, in the19 playgrounds. And there is a legacy of20 lead, from my brief study of this21 subject, a legacy of lead in Philadelphia22 resulting from our industrial past and23 from leaded gasoline from the first24 automobile that ran the streets of25 166 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 Philadelphia, which was, what, 19022 through 1984. All of that lead has3 contaminated our environment, and it is4 not just emitting from within the homes,5 but from without the homes.6 I'll try to wrap it up here.7 One of the things that I'm8 hearing in the testimony was of9 particular outrage to me was a woman10 representing one of the social services11 agencies who accused me essentially of12 being a criminal seeking to profit from13 poisoning kids. Well, that's just14 outrageous, and that's the kind of15 divisive rhetoric that will do nothing to16 protect children or solve the issue of17 lead poisoning. We're not evil people.18 If you go --19 (Applause.)20

If you go past our21 homes, and they're mostly Center City and22 they're not lower income rental23 properties, you will see the kinds of24 homes that you wish Philadelphia would25 167 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 aspire to. There are window boxes that2 are planted, flowers and greens. There3 are gleaming brass fixtures in the doors,4 knockers and mail slots. You go in the5 house, you will see painstakingly6 restored many of the historical features7 that originally were attributed to the8 property brought back lovingly, and tons9 of moulding, crown moulding, picture10 moulding, chair rail moulding that much11 of which yours truly on his hands and12 knees and learning how to use a nail gun13 put in. It would be a shame, it would be14 a shame to have to destroy all of that.15 Why don't we work together to16 come up with some reasonable regulations,17 some reasonable and enforceable law that18 will really make a dent in the issue of19 lead poisoning.20 My daughter lived in one of our21 houses, and so I will put my good word22 and good efforts into protecting kids as23 I protected my own. Let's work together.24 Thank you very much.25 168 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 (Applause.)2

My name is Mack3 Duncan. I'm a land owner, landlord.4 I've been one for about 40 years, not a5 big one, but been trying to be a good6 landlord. I've scratched off most of the7 things on my list, but I did want to8 mention one thing, and that's about the9 reinspection.10 When a tenant is going to move11 into a unit, we need to get certified; am12 I correct? When that tenant moves out,13 we need to get recertified. Am I wrong?14

Maybe.15

Maybe. Because my16 concern is that as a landlord, I'm not17 going to do anything to contaminate the18 unit. If I get it passed once, what19 would I do to cause it to not pass again?20 But as a landlord, as I understand it,21 I'm going to have to pay the cost to22 prove that my place is satisfactory. I23 have to prove that. I don't think I24 should necessarily have to do that if25 169 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 it's a cost, and especially I hear costs2 running up to $700 or $800.3

Let me4 just say this: There has been a lot of5 discussion about this legislation in the6 last couple of days, and many of those --7 some of the questions that have been8 raised today have been raised during that9 discussion, and the Chair and the sponsor10 of this bill will be offering some11 amendments, but we have to go through the12 hearing first.13

That's all we're14 asking, is that things be looked at in15 some kind of a --16 (Applause.)17

I love children.18 I have five grandchildren. They don't19 live in Philly. I have to travel to see20 them. But as a landlord, we would not do21 anything to hurt children. So we need to22 be on that same, but we need to also not23 give false hope. We all breathe this24 lead dust. We all breathe it. Why is it25 170 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 that some kids are getting a bigger2 problem than some other kids? We need to3 look at that. It may be -- we keep4 hearing about these toys coming from5 China, lead-based toys, that they find6 shipments of them, they send them back,7 but they only find a small amount of8 them. Maybe that's part of the problem.9 It's about educating the mothers. It's10 about educating the mothers and making11 sure we do our part, and that's all we12 ask, is that that be included, because13 once this bill passes, it's gone.14 Whatever is not fixed at that point15 probably won't get fixed for another ten16 years.17 So let's just take the time.18 And I know it's been two years. Three19 years is a long time, but let's take the20 time to make sure we're doing something21 that really helps. That's all I need.22 That's my place.23

Thank you24 very much. We appreciate you coming25 171 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 down.2 (Applause.)3

My4 neighbor. He's my neighbor, a community5 activist in the 50th Ward, the 9th6 District.7 Go ahead.8

Good afternoon.9 I want to thank the members of the10 Council for allowing me to address you.11 My name is Alan Folkman. I am a member12 of the Greater Philadelphia Association13 of Realtors, and I am not an activist,14 but I have read the bill, and right now15 I'm most concerned with just being a16 survivor. I represent almost 200 small17 property owners as well as myself. None18 of them are large corporations. Many are19 retired and they live on their rental20 income. They are not slumlords. Our21 properties are meticulously maintained22 and pose absolutely no threat to our23 tenants. In fact, all the properties24 have complied to all City safety25 172 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 ordinances. They all have smoke2 detectors, Class B certified fire alarms.3 They have fire extinguishers and carbon4 monoxide detectors. They are certified5 annually, as per the law. We never6 considered opposing any of these7 measures, because they make sense and8 they save lives, but this bill does9 neither.10 I've worked my whole life.11 I've invested the largest amount of my12 money and future into real estate. The13 terms of this bill are so severe that it14 threatens the future viability of all15 I've worked for. This bill, through the16 use of old data, voodoo statistics,17 misinformation, is being presented --18 (Applause.)19

-- as the end-all20 solution to lead poisoning in this city.21 It is not. It will do little to change22 things. Why? Even if all 71,00023 licensed rental units in this city24 attempted to comply, the bill as written25 173 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 will do nothing to enforce the problem of2 the 200,000-plus unlicensed properties.3 (Applause.)4

And this city has5 made little or no effort to go after6 them. These are the properties that need7 to be addressed, along with the day care8 centers, schools, libraries and rec9 centers where children congregate.10 (Applause.)11

It makes no sense12 that this bill aims at apartments where13 there are no children and completely14 neglects to mandate the changes at the15 very places where children are at risk.16 The standards of this bill are17 unachievable. Landlords did not cause18 the contamination. Only 60 years ago19 Philadelphia was the manufacturing20 powerhouse with a population of 2.121 million. This caused a great deal of22 pollution, as did seven years of leaded23 gas and leaded paint. This contamination24 remains with us in the soil and in the25 174 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 air to this day.2 As the manufacturing plants3 left the City, so did hundreds of4 thousands of citizens. The plants,5 factories and warehouses that supported6 this industry were all contaminated. The7 100,000 abandoned houses left by the8 fleeing population are all contaminated,9 and they are still ignored by the City.10 As they crumble or are demolished, they11 continue to release more lead into the12 environment.13 I can spend thousands and14 thousands of dollars trying to clean up15 all the invisible environmental dust out16 of a house, but all you have to do is17 open the door and it comes right back in.18 (Applause.)19

Under this bill,20 tenants could not only refuse to pay21 rent, but they can actually sue for22 damages, even when there is no reasonable23 risk to their safety or their welfare.24 The landlord's responsibility should be25 175 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 limited to the lead sources in the house,2 not in the environment.3 I've taken time to read the4 lead ordinances in several other cities5 and I will comment on them shortly, but6 one major difference to be noted is that7 while other cities have worked in8 conjunction with landlords, going after9 the paint and oil companies, by10 developing policies to deal with these11 issues and funds to assist landlords,12 Philadelphia is content to point fingers13 and place 100 percent of the cost upon14 us. Why? Because we are identifiable15 and we are available. Make no mistake,16 we are the scapegoats in this.17 (Applause.)18

The proposals in19 this bill are not based on facts or20 science, and if this bill passes, the21 value of our properties will plummet.22 Who in their right mind would buy a23 rental property in this city under these24 conditions? And what mortgage company25 176 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 will finance the property guaranteed to2 lose values? And what happens to the3 City's tax base when this happens? Has4 anyone on the Committee stopped to5 consider the long-term effects?6 (Applause.)7

Here are some8 more facts which seem to have been9 overlooked: Half the children of the10 City live with their parents in homes11 they own. There is nothing in the bill12 to address this. And PHA, probably the13 City's largest landlord of children, will14 most likely be exempt from this bill. In15 essence, the vast majority of children16 will not benefit from this bill, and my17 clients, who have no children living in18 their houses or apartments at all, will19 have to comply, while the unlicensed20 landlords skate by with no effect.21 How can you ask landlords who22 have worked hard, improved their23 properties and invested heavily to take24 these risks and function under these25 177 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 conditions?2 Over the past few years, this3 city has implemented numerous laws which4 have consistently targeted landlords. If5 a tenant fails to pay a water bill, go6 after the landlord. If the tenant7 doesn't pay a gas bill, go after the8 landlord.9 (Applause.)10

If the tenant11 puts out the trash early, go after the12 landlord. The City needs additional13 money? Let's pass a trash bill aimed14 specifically at landlords and let's15 charge the landlords $150.16 (Applause.)17

And the following18 year, let's double it to $300, and let's19 make it retroactive while we're at it.20

Would you21 please summarize your testimony, please.22 We have all these --23 (Audience members yelling.)24

Madam Chairwoman,25 178 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 I will do my best.2

I have at3 least 60 people who are here to testify.4 Okay?5

I will do my6 best.7

You are8 repeating what has already been said. So9 please finish.10

Passage of this11 ill-conceived and poorly written bill in12 its current form, without any concern for13 its implementation, its cost or the14 effect on property values, amount to15 nothing less than an assault on16 landlords.17 Let me repeat, that we would18 support a bill crafted to solve the19 problem of lead ingestion by children.20 However, this is not that bill. Please21 do not be fooled by this bill's intention22 or be intimidated by fearing that vote23 against this will appear to be a vote24 against children's health. We concede25 179 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 that this bill has the best intentions,2 but as written, it will do little to3 solve the problem.4 In closing, I would like to5 address one final point. Much has been6 made that other cities and states have7 already passed comparable lead state8 bills. While I'm not a lawyer and I only9 had a short time to review a few of them,10 but I would say that this bill is hardly11 comparable. The New York City law is by12 far the most comprehensive, but even it13 bears little resemblance to this bill.14 The New York law is limited to children15 six and under. The city does the16 inspection, not the owner. In fact,17 having read five or six of the other18 statutes listed on this bill, I could not19 find a single law which required the20 owner to find and pay for a private21 inspector. In New York, condos, co-ops,22 single-family houses are exempt. In23 other jurisdictions, lofts and studios24 are exempt. There is nothing in the New25 180 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 York law about a landlord's criminal2 liability or the tenant's right to sue3 for damages.4 In fact, the things that the5 New York law and the Philadelphia6 proposed law have most in common is that7 they would both be laws and they would8 both use the word "lead." They are in no9 way comparable, nor were any of the other10 statutes that I pored through this whole11 weekend while I tried to watch the12 Eagles.13 If you take the time and14 understand how flawed this bill is, you15 must vote against it strictly on its16 merits.17 I thank you for your time.18

Thank you.19 (Applause.)20

Good21 afternoon. Would you identify yourself,22 please, for the record.23

Yes. I'm Alan24 Krigman. I own and operate 11 rental25 181 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 buildings with a total of 30 units. My2 management company is at 45th and Walnut,3 and I live at 45th and Walnut. I have a4 full-time payroll of four people,5 including myself. I've never been6 accused of brevity before, but I'm going7 to try to break the mold today.8 Much of what I planned to say9 on these ten pages has already been said10 better than I can say it. But, A, I'd11 like to reiterate that no right-minded12 person would argue against the importance13 of protecting children from lead14 poisoning.15 (Applause.)16

But this bill17 will not do the job it's supposed to do,18 and as Mr. Sims from HAPCO said, that19 makes it a feel-good piece of20 legislation, because you, City Council,21 can sit back and think we've solved the22 problem, and they haven't.23 To reiterate one of the things24 that Alan said, let me give you the25 182 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 numbers in a slightly different way.2 This enforcement mechanism that you've3 been -- this bill is unenforceable,4 except that you've built in an5 enforcement mechanism that doesn't make6 any sense. The enforcement mechanism7 essentially limits enforcement to8 licensed housing providers. That's 269 percent of all rental housing --10 (Applause.)11

-- using L&I's12 numbers for how many licenses they've13 issued and the 2010 census for how many14 rental units there are in the City.15 On top of that, there's roughly16 about 50/50 -- I forget exactly the17 numbers -- owner-occupied versus rental18 housing, and it doesn't apply to the19 owner-occupied. Therefore, you're only20 talking about 26 percent of the rental21 housing and half of the total housing.22 You're talking about 12 -- something like23 12 percent of the kids that live in this24 city. This bill is only protecting a25 183 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 small number of them.2 On top of that, as has been3 pointed out, the people who are licensed,4 the ones that you can go after, are the5 more responsible rental housing6 providers.7 (Applause.)8

Take a look for9 yourself. Come and take a tour. We'll10 be happy to give you a tour, unannounced.11 You can come any time you want, through12 any of our buildings, and then let's go13 to see some of the places that aren't14 licensed.15 (Applause.)16

If you think that17 spending three to four hundred bucks per18 new leased unit is a small amount of19 money, I'm sorry, maybe you're spoiled by20 making six figures. We don't make six21 figures. I can tell you that if I have22 to incur that kind of a cost, it's got to23 come out somewhere. It's going to go24 into a higher rent or I'm going to have25 184 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 to start charging a lease application fee2 that covers the cost of the inspection.3 Now, for a tenant to move into4 one of my apartments or almost anybody's,5 because of some of the other laws, we've6 got to make them pay first month's rent,7 last month's rent and security deposit.8 Somebody that has a cheap apartment,9 let's say 600 bucks for a good size10 apartment that can handle their family,11 has to put up 1,800 bucks just to move12 in. They may be able to afford the 600 a13 month. Some of those people haven't got14 $1,800 that they can put together. We've15 had people that have said, I love the16 apartment, what can you do for me? Can17 you spread out these extra costs? And18 the answer is, unfortunately I can't, and19 the reason I can't is because I've been20 burned too many times to be able to do21 that.22 (Applause.)23

Would you24 please summarize your testimony.25 185 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1

I'll be done2 in -- I'll wrap this up.3

Thank you.4

Let me ask you5 the following rhetorical questions.6 Parental responsibility, what's that? We7 give out all these pieces of literature8 about looking for lead-safe and lead-safe9 houses. The City has not done the10 educational job through public service11 announcements, signs on public buildings,12 schools or other things to get people13 accustomed to what is parental14 responsibility. It has to do with15 keeping your apartment clean, as has been16 pointed out. The CDC --17 (Applause.)18

The CDC and EPA19 have recommended twice a month20 damp-mopping of floors and damp-wiping of21 windowsills that virtually eliminate the22 hazard of lead poisoning, even though the23 dust is there.24 Also, the CDC and EPA have25 186 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 recommended diets. Have we talked to2 people about the fact feed your kids3 diets high in iron, calcium and vitamin4 A, vitamin C. Stay away from fatty5 stuff. Let's find out, do the people who6 are coming in and being tested high, what7 are their diets? I'd venture to say8 their parents are feeding them junk food,9 not because --10

Sir, would11 you please finish your testimony.12

You know --13

Please.14

-- you're15 affecting -- Mrs. Tasco, Councilwoman,16 with all due respect, you're looking at a17 bill that's affecting my livelihood, my18 employees' livelihood and the welfare of19 my tenants. I think you can spend a20 little bit of time listening to us. And21 while I am --22 (Applause.)23

While --24

You see25 187 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 all these people in here who want to2 testify?3

Then continue4 this hearing until some other day for the5 rest of it.6

We're7 going to end it today and we're going to8 ask you to finish.9

I think10 there's -- by the way -- all right. I'm11 going to finish, but I'm going to say12 this. This Committee has six people on13 it. Only three people are sitting here.14 Mrs. Tasco, you weren't even here for the15 hearing for the first version of the16 bill.17 Mrs. Reynolds Brown, you've18 spent an hour kibitzing with other people19 and not listening to us. You're showing20 us --21 (Applause and booing.)22

You're showing us23 a great deal of disrespect. And on top24 of that, I question the propriety of a25 188 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 bill that was introduced by you,2 Ms. Reynolds Brown, and you, Ms. Tasco.3 With all the best of intentions, of4 course, you introduced the bill. Now5 you're sitting in this committee as judge6 and jury. Why isn't the Housing7 Committee hearing this thing? You'll8 hear a much different response. Why9 don't the Housing Committee and --10

Sir, would11 you please end your testimony.12

Will you please13 be polite to me, Mrs. Tasco.14

I'm polite15 to you. Would you end your testimony.16

All right. I'll17 finish with one other thing.18

You can19 leave your whole testimony here. It will20 be part of the record.21

Let me tell22 you -- all right. I will. Let me finish23 with one other thing.24 Your statistics -- I have two25 189 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 degrees in engineering. I understand2 statistics very well. Your statistics3 are junk statistics. These maps mean4 nothing. You've counted the density of5 rental housing twice. What we should be6 looking at is instances of lead7 poisoning. And even there what would it8 prove? That they happen in places.9 This is no way to allocate our10 resources properly by pretending that the11 problem is all over the City when valid12 statistical studies have shown that we're13 talking about eight out of the 48 zip14 codes that have the highest instances of15 lead poisoning.16 Second, the first page of this17 document says, Lead paint ruins a child's18 life every nine minutes. That would be19 54,000 cases a year. You're implying20 that that's what we should worry about.21 That's not the City of Philadelphia. We22 don't have 54,000 kids in the City of23 Philadelphia.24 Next page, Lead paint poisoning25 190 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 affects over one million children today.2 Where is that? In the whole United3 States? In the whole world? We don't4 have that number.5 More statistics. Ms. --6

Your time7 is up. Your time is up. Thank you very8 much. Thank you very much.9 (Applause.)10

What --11

Your time12 is up.13 (Audience members yelling.)14

There is15 another hearing that was scheduled for16 this room at 3 o'clock. There are people17 here who are waiting for that hearing to18 begin. There are Councilmembers who are19 members of this Committee who are here.20 These hearings are scheduled on the21 schedule of a chair and/or the sponsor,22 and sometimes the Committee members23 cannot be physically in the room, but are24 in their offices listening on television25 191 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 or on the squawk box. And I don't know2 what I was doing when the hearing was in3 June, but if I was not here, I had a very4 darn good reason, and you don't have no5 right to chastise me.6 (Applause.)7

Well, let me8 just --9

Because I10 was the one that passed the first lead11 bill back in 1990. Okay? Understand12 that.13

If you people14 were astonished by the number of people15 that wanted to speak, shame on you for16 not realizing the importance of this.17 (Applause and booing.)18

You have19 to wait your turn to testify, sir. Have20 you signed up to testify?21 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Yes,22 ma'am.23

Well, have24 a seat and we'll call on you soon.25 192 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 Go ahead, sir.2

Thank you for3 allowing me the opportunity to speak. My4 name is Al Brown. I am a landlord.5 I believe that the intent of6 the bill is great. We're all talking7 about the safety and the welfare of8 children. But I think the burden is9 being placed unfairly on who is going to10 be responsible for helping to remediate11 the issue with poisoning children with12 lead.13 I'd like to ask the Council14 Lady, do you have a home? Do you have15 children in your home?16

Who, me?17

Yes. Or all three18 of you, do you have children in your19 house?20

Yes.21

I have22 children who visit my home.23

Well, you visit,24 but you still have children that come in25 193 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 and out of your home. I'm quite sure2 then that you would be willing to have3 your home certified to make sure that4 your home is going to be safe for the5 children that's coming in and out of your6 house.7 (Applause.)8

So I think the9 expense and the burden -- I mean, we're10 all about the welfare and the health11 again of children, but you're placing,12 again, the burden on just one entity, and13 it's an unfair burden.14 I think that the bill needs to15 be re-looked at and re-tabled. I think16 we have to do something to eradicate the17 poisoning of our children, but just to18 single out one group is the wrong way to19 do it.20 (Applause.)21

I'm quite sure the22 children under the age of six years23 old -- I can bring my grandchildren into24 this building, but has City Hall been25 194 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 certified lead free? Is it safe?2 (Applause.)3

Can you provide a4 certificate for me to have that done?5 There's construction done in my6 neighborhood every day where they're7 tearing down homes. A lot of them are8 RDA homes that are blighted and they're9 falling down, have to be torn down, but10 these demolition contractors are tearing11 down the homes. There's no masking off,12 no watering down. I mean, if we're13 talking about protecting children, then14 it should be something in place to make15 sure that buildings are taken down16 properly. I mean, you can almost have a17 class action lawsuit. I mean, in my18 neighborhood I would come after the City19 for the dust that's in my community20 that's affecting the children, my21 children and children in the community.22 I had -- everything else would23 be redundant because everybody is saying24 basically the same thing, but this bill25 195 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 needs to be taken back and looked at how2 it could be -- how we can fairly help3 children and not add a burden on somebody4 else unfairly.5

Thank you6 very much for your testimony.7 (Applause.)8

Hi. How9 are you? Would you identify yourself for10 the record, please.11

Good evening. My12 name is Justin Moore. I'm a landlord and13 a small businessowner. I would like to14 thank you again for giving me the time to15 speak to you and for allowing me to be16 part of other stakeholder meetings. I17 will not be redundant. I will only focus18 on one point in the interest of time.19 I saw a lot of statistics out.20 I've seen signs held up. I didn't hear21 too many people who have actually gone22 through the lead remediation process23 speak, and as a developer through the NSP24 program, I've actually had to have25 196 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 properties remediated and get the2 certification.3 The initial test -- and I have4 the invoices to prove it -- cost me $500,5 and as reasonably expected with the6 houses built when they were, the house7 failed the first time, which means I had8 to have the guy come back out and retest9 after the remediation was done. It cost10 me another $500.11 I will not burden you with the12 remediation costs because that's relative13 to whatever property in the City of14 Philadelphia that that house is being15 done, but the testing is pretty much16 standardized.17 So in my personal instance,18 that cost me a thousand dollars in just19 testing alone. Now, you take an average20 landlord, which isn't this conglomerate21 who owns thousands of rental units and22 has millions of dollars, let's say our23 landlord only has ten units. At a24 thousand dollars per unit, that's25 197 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 $10,000. Now, I don't know how many2 folks in this room have $10,000 in their3 business accounts to spend on testing. I4 surely don't.5 Furthermore, if we did have the6 $10,000 that we could spend on the7 testing and the remediation, what happens8 when the water heater breaks? What9 happens when there's an electrical10 problem that you need to fix and there's11 no money to pay that?12 I spoke up here in June and I13 said that even if I did support the bill14 and wanted this bill, I couldn't be in15 compliance with it because I can't afford16 the testing by itself. So I'll be more17 clear and I'll be more direct.18 Passing this bill will put19 myself and a lot of landlords in my20 position out of business.21 Thank you.22 (Applause.)23

Thank you24 very much for taking time to come down to25 198 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 testify. We appreciate it very much.2 Our next panel, Joan Levin,3 Andy Cirone, Bill Jung, Seth Floyd,4 Stanley Daniel, Bill Avera. If those5 individuals are here, would you come6 forward.7 (Witnesses approached witness8 table.)9

Good10 afternoon. Thank you for coming. Would11 you identify yourself for the record,12 please.13

Hi. My name is Bill14 Jung. I'm a landlord in Philadelphia,15 been doing it for about 15 years.16 Everything that everybody said,17 everybody made great points. I just need18 to go back to the dollar value. If you19 look a cost per unit, I mean, currently20 I'm at about 35, 40 units. If it's a21 thousand dollars per unit to keep22 everything in business, I'm probably out23 of business.24 I've been doing this for 1525 199 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 years, bought one property a year. I2 don't know what the conglomerate is or3 how many people have few properties to a4 lot of properties. We're not big5 businesspeople. We worry about our6 tenants.7 I currently have a8 five-and-a-half-year-old daughter, which9 she does come with me to my apartments.10 She walks through after we do our11 cleaning. That's the last thing I want12 to see, is anybody getting hurt. Out of13 my units, I probably have 5 percent of14 children under six. I take more special15 care in those units to make sure things16 are safe, whether it be an electrical17 outlet or lead. But we can't control18 what goes on outside of our buildings,19 whether it be in the soil or gas or20 whatever.21 Just trying to stay in22 business. Our taxes are going up, our23 trash fees. I have $5,000 in trash fees24 sitting in front of me that need to be25 200 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 paid. The City keeps raising things and2 raising things, and your landlords are3 going to leave, sell their properties and4 put them in a different borough, which is5 going to lower the tax base and leave6 abandoned houses.7 That's all. Thank you.8

Thank you.9 Excuse me, sir. Let me10 interrupt you for a moment, please, to11 make this announcement.12 The Housing Committee hearing13 scheduled for 3:00 p.m. today, November14 the 30th, to consider Bill 110784 is15 recessed to Monday, December 5th, 2011 at16 10:00 a.m. So if any of you are here to17 hear the Housing bill, it is rescheduled18 to Monday, December the 5th, 2011 at19 10:00 a.m.20 Thank you very much.21

Thank you,22 Councilwoman. My name is Andy Cirone.23 I'm a landlord and small businessowner in24 Philadelphia. I do live in Philadelphia.25 201 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 I'm kind of going to piecemeal2 this, because I crossed out a lot of3 things that were mentioned already. So4 if it sounds scattered, excuse me.5 But it is always good to see6 City Council has our children of the City7 in their best interest, but sometimes8 trying to help can disturb the good9 actions that are already in progress.10 You'll be singling out property owners11 that are legitimate and already care12 about the well-being of the tenant by13 providing a residence fit and clean for14 healthy occupancy. I'm not personally15 one of those greedy landlords stereotyped16 on the Hollywood screen that everybody17 loves to make fun of. When I'm through18 with a property, I can live in it. I19 would not have a problem living in the20 properties I rent. Any time people come21 to look at these properties, they walk in22 there and go, Oh, my God, is this23 beautiful. I mean, it's not the Taj24 Mahal or anything, but it's clean. It's25 202 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 acceptable to anybody.2 I'd rather have a happy tenant3 than someone that's just going to be in4 there beating the place up. You give5 them a clean place, they take care of it6 then. They're more likely to take7 responsibility. And also to try to get8 someone in there, if I have to make a9 test up, the tenants are going to be long10 moved on or I'm going to be ordering11 inspections, waiting for results, if12 mediation is needed. They're going to be13 in some place. And I see this causing14 those tenants to move to a property15 that's charging a lower rent, only16 because the owner will most likely not be17 licensed and incurring these charges.18 (Applause.)19

These landlords20 don't maintain their properties, and we21 all know this. This is, I think, where22 the problem is -- we should be going at23 right now. They don't follow the local24 laws or they don't care about the25 203 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 well-being of anybody. They fly below2 the radar and are proud of it. Before3 they were saying close to 75 percent of4 these rentals are unlicensed, let alone5 owner-occupancies are exempt and6 everything else that's exempt. We're not7 going to go there right now, but there's8 a large number there.9 I personally had a tenant10 accuse me of having a house contaminated11 with lead, because her great-grandchild12 was diagnosed with it. The child didn't13 live there. She wasn't on the lease, but14 had the house tested anyway because she15 said it was free. And then when I16 questioned her about this issue, she17 would get very defensive and told me --18 her words were, I know how this is done,19 I know how it works, and I'm going to20 seek damages.21 Now, after this went into --22 the instant I was informed of this and I23 jumped right on this with the list of24 contractors. I did not hesitant, no. I25 204 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 wanted to get this taken care of. The2 only thing that was wrong was some3 chipped painted on the old radiators that4 had been painted over and two pieces of5 wall and some cornice on the outside.6 That was it. It cost me $2,500 to have7 that taken care of. And as a licensed8 contractor, I was not allowed to paint.9 I am a licensed contractor in10 Philadelphia, but I was not allowed to11 touch that. The contractor only -- he12 only painted over it.13 And another thing, I seriously14 think the tenant then proceeded not to15 pay the rent from that day and would not16 even let the contractor in the door to do17 the work. I had to get the institution18 that she called to do the inspection to19 come down on her and tell her, No, you20 have to let these people in here to do21 the work. This took another two weeks22 between phone calls and, Well, we can't23 get a hold of her, she won't pick up the24 phone, and nobody would answer the door.25 205 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 In the meantime, she's not paying rent.2 So then after I had this house3 remediated, what did she do? She leaves.4 If this house was taken care of, why did5 she leave then? I think it was just6 because she had to pay -- we jumped on7 this and it was taken care of within, I8 think, 30 days from beginning to end.9 And then also with most of the10 products today being manufactured in11 countries that still use lead or other12 harmful or banned resources to make toys,13 food, other household items, how are we14 to keep a clean property from being15 infiltrated by these outside sources?16 Construction from demo sites, common17 everywhere, spew dust into the area.18 Even the ground -- again, even the ground19 is contaminated with the lead and20 everything. I won't go there anymore.21 And, again, why is the burden22 being pursued on just us legal landlords?23 If anybody is going -- if you -- I think24 it's a great bill. I've had lead25 206 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 poisoning myself from work. I know what2 it does to people and I know what it did3 to me, and I knew what I had to do to4 protect my children. On the job I was5 on, I would literally strip down outside,6 put the clothes in the bag and,7 thankfully, my mother let me clean them8 in her washer. The stuff never entered9 my house, because I had a two- and a10 four-year-old at the time. I was11 conscious about this and I took this into12 consideration and I did what I had to.13 And cleaning of the house, how14 am I supposed to -- if the person doesn't15 clean the house of this dust that's16 coming in there, how am I supposed to17 regulate this? It shouldn't be on me for18 the hygiene of the person.19 (Applause.)20

Would you21 kindly wrap up, please.22

I'm just about done.23 I'm at the very bottom here. I just24 wanted to make sure I didn't forget25 207 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 anything here.2 Besides the cost and3 everything, yes, this will impact. I4 don't make a lot of money on this. I5 make a very little bit, and like they6 said, the thousand dollars of rental,7 it's going to hurt, and that is basically8 probably all the profit that I make a9 year on something like that, just because10 of mortgages and -- the bank owns the11 property right now. I just maintain it.12 That's all it is.13 (Applause. )14

So in closing, this15 is what I'd like to say, is, look at this16 bill again. I think it's good. I think17 we should be addressing this. We have to18 look out for our children. It is our19 future. I want them to be looking back20 at us and saying, I'm glad they rewrote21 that to look at everything, not to just22 pointing the finger at the stereotypical23 greedy landlords that are sucking the24 money out of everybody. It's not us.25 208 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 Like they said, it's everywhere, whether2 it's in this building, in the ceilings3 where I see the chipping paint or in the4 schools that everybody -- you know it's5 out there. Go against all the culprits,6 just not singling out one person. The7 responsibility has to be spread all8 around. Please amend this bill to where9 you're just not landing all the blame on10 us.11 Thank you for hearing me.12

Thank you.13 (Applause.)14

Sir.15

Good afternoon or16 I should say good evening. Stanley17 Daniel is my name. I'm a real estate18 investor. I'm a licensed realtor. I'm a19 landlord. I'm a property manager. I'm a20 contractor. I'm a small businessperson.21 I have 21 rentals in the City, and my22 average rent is probably about 540, 550 a23 month. So there's not an awful lot of24 money there.25 209 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 There isn't a person in this2 room on either side of this discussion3 that wants one child to get sick or one4 child to get contaminated with lead. I5 oppose the bill because the bill is not6 going to accomplish its objective, number7 one, and, number two, I'm tired of the8 City of Philadelphia dumping on the9 landlords.10 (Applause.)11

I have a whole12 bunch of things prepared here that some13 of it's repeat, but I'm going to say14 something that no one has said. You're15 going to kill the real estate market in16 Philadelphia. Investors are not going to17 want to invest here.18 Do you know that today in19 today's economy 20 percent of all the20 properties sold in this country are21 bought by me and the people here,22 investors, entrepreneurs, people who want23 to take a risk and go out and work, and24 you're making Philadelphia not a very25 210 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 pleasant place to do business.2 Now, I just finished a rehab.3 I spent $60,000, and I created more jobs4 in that one rehab than you guys did in5 the entire year.6 (Applause and booing.)7

I'm going to8 change that statement. I made -- I9 provided more jobs than you guys have in10 the last five years.11 I bought the property -- I'll12 stand if I want, thank you.13 I bought the property. I paid14 a gal a commission who worked at Century15 21. I paid a mortgage guy a commission16 on the mortgage I got. The mortgage17 company wanted a termite certification.18 I paid an exterminator for that. I paid19 an appraiser for the appraisal. I sat20 down at the settlement table and I paid21 you guys transfer tax, which, correct me22 if I'm wrong, is the second highest in23 the country. I paid those people because24 I had the initiative to go and take a25 211 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 property that was so far in arrears in2 taxes, I don't want to embarrass you, but3 you should be ashamed yourself. I paid4 the delinquent water bill. I paid the5 delinquent sewage bills. I paid the6 delinquent gas bill, all to City7 agencies. I paid these people. I8 rehabbed -- I went to L&I and I paid L&I.9 I hired an electrician. I hired a10 plumber. I bought all kinds of things.11 I bought doors, windows, paint, et12 cetera, et cetera, et cetera. You get13 the idea? There's a convenience store in14 the next corner. My guys went in there15 and bought smokes, lunches, lottery16 tickets, spent $50 to $70 a day. The guy17 thought he died and went to heaven, he18 was so happy. Every time I went in19 there, the guy gave me a free Diet Pepsi20 and wanted to give me a hug and a kiss.21 Now, if his wife wanted to do it, it22 would have been a different story.23 I went out there and I took a24 property that was blighted. I spent25 212 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 $60,000, and I created profit, I created2 revenue to the City. Leave me alone.3 Leave us alone. Let us do our thing and4 the City will be prosperous.5 (Applause.)6

The way City7 Council operates, we're going to be8 standing next to Harrisburg bankrupt.9 I have good credit. I'm a10 licensed realtor in Pennsylvania and New11 Jersey. I can do it in any place. Why12 should I do it in Philadelphia? Instead13 of staying awake wondering how you can14 stick your hand in my pocket, why don't15 you wonder what you can do that I'm going16 to rehab another house here.17 I'll have to be honest with18 you, I just finished a rehab in19 Langhorne, Middletown Township. I went20 to L&I. I never did any business in21 Bucks County before. I went to L&I. I22 went to L&I the same way I went to L&I23 here when I did the other house. Went24 first thing in the morning, I had a Daily25 213 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 News under my arm and I packed my lunch2 and my dinner. Lo and behold, I was out3 of there in ten minutes. And they were4 even polite. And, yes, on Highland5 Avenue, one block from the house, there6 was a convenience store. He got an extra7 $50, $70, and his wife did give me a hug8 and a kiss. And I bought an awful lot of9 stuff at Lowe's and Home Depot in10 Neshaminy Mall. You guys didn't get a11 cent on the sales tax on that.12 Why should anybody do business13 in Philadelphia if you're making it an14 unfriendly place to do business?15 (Applause.)16

Now --17

Listen, we18 get the picture. Would you please19 summarize your testimony.20

The problem with21 this bill is, it's not protecting the22 children that need protection.23 Seventy-five percent of the rentals in24 the City, 200,000 households, are not25 214 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 licensed. That's where the problem is.2 Okay?3 I also have grandchildren. I4 have twin granddaughters who will be six5 April 1st and a grandson who will be five6 December 8th, next week. They live in7 owner-occupied properties. Why do you8 choose to exclude protecting my9 grandchildren?10 This law --11 (Applause.)12

Your intentions13 are good, okay, but you're trying to head14 north and you're going south.15 Thank you very much.16 (Applause.)17

Thank you18 all very much.19 The next panel will be Elliot20 Holtz, Larry Lunsk, Debra Kless, Boris21 Zacharczuk, Michael John and Henry22 Hauptfuhrer.23 (Witnesses approached witness24 table.)25 215 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1

Of the2 people in this room, how many more, if3 you raise your hands, who are prepared to4 testify?5 (Audience members raising6 hands.)7

Okay.8 Thank you very much.9 Would you please identify10 yourself and begin your testimony.11

Yes. My name is12 Elliot Holtz. Good afternoon or evening,13 Chairwoman Tasco and City Councilmembers.14 I'd also like to just express thank you.15 I'm a little disappointed to only see16 three of you here, but appreciate that17 you're committed to this.18

It doesn't19 mean that they're not here. A number of20 these Committee members sat all morning21 in another hearing. So we have resources22 in our office that we listen to the23 testimony in the office. So it's not24 that they don't hear you. They hear you.25 216 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1

Thank you.2

Thank you.3

I also will be a4 little choppy because so much has been5 said that I'll try not to repeat, but let6 me going quickly.7 First, I'm a parent with three8 children, one of whom has severe learning9 disabilities that may very well have been10 caused by lead poisoning, and I11 understand the tremendous concern and12 problem that development issues bring to13 a family, both emotional and financial14 and it can be devastating, and there is15 no one in this room or has been here that16 cares more about the kids than the people17 here.18 I'd also like to say that I see19 properties every day of landlords who are20 not in this room, because they wouldn't21 dare show their face to the City Council,22 because they're unlicensed and they don't23 follow the existing laws that would do so24 much more to protect our children than25 217 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 what this will do to roughly 122 percent -- and maybe the numbers are3 wrong, but even if you get down in4 somewhere there, it's 12 percent.5 I also am on several6 independent school boards and see the7 impact particularly from a learning8 disabled school that I serve on and see.9 So I understand firsthand.10 I'm also here as a small11 businessowner, and I'm a private real12 estate investor. I'm trying to make this13 a business after losing my job. I have14 properties in Philadelphia where it's15 becoming increasingly difficult and16 expensive to maintain a business. I'm a17 capitalist and I'm proud of it, and each18 day I make decisions on what I do with my19 money.20 In the last weeks, I've walked21 away from several properties where I have22 agreements of sale. And I'm a great23 landlord. My tenants love me. My24 properties are beautiful, considering25 218 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 where they are. It's the best thing in2 the neighborhood. And I have walked away3 on two agreements of sale because I feel4 that I cannot continue to make5 investments in our great city.6 (Applause.)7

I also think the8 last thing that Philadelphia needs is9 further deterioration of our business10 climate and further loss of investment11 from people like me.12 I can't support the way -- the13 bill the way it exists. I think the idea14 of protecting children is great and15 obviously, as you've acknowledged, it16 needs some work. We're an old city.17 Everybody has said that. But if we18 looked at enforcing the laws that already19 exist, I think we would take care of 9820 percent of the problems that we're21 addressing. Make people maintain their22 houses. L&I has never -- and I'm not23 asking -- this is not an invitation. L&I24 has never come to one of my properties,25 219 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 except for one that had an old violation2 because I couldn't get the new3 certificate. I don't see what I'm paying4 for. I mean, I'm burdened with -- and I5 won't go through the list that other6 people have done, but I think if you give7 the proper allocation, the resources to8 enforcing the laws that exist, we9 wouldn't be sitting here today.10 (Applause.)11

Thank you12 very much.13

I'm going to skip a14 lot of the issues, but I don't think15 anybody here can afford to gloss over the16 idea that this is extremely punitive17 against a few of us. And if we're18 landlords renting in a good way,19 licensed, why aren't our neighbors? Why20 aren't the schools? Why aren't the21 churches? Why aren't the rec centers?22 Why isn't this building subject to the23 same laws that I'm being punitively24 enforced on? And, again, the25 220 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 six-year-old issue, I've had a child with2 these issues. I know what it looks like,3 and I've done it myself to get cleaned4 up. Why are we going after everybody?5 It's like hitting a fly with a machine6 gun. We need to target the problem.7 Also, this issue of hearing 5608 housing units in the City, 275 rental9 units but only 70-something thousand10 licensed. I don't know if I can ask a11 question. Is that true? Is it true that12 of 275 rentals, that we only have 70,00013 licensed?14

We didn't15 make that statement. You have to ask the16 person who made the statement.17

And I won't take18 the time to do that.19 Also, the abandoned properties,20 they're in my neighborhood, they're in21 other neighborhoods. They are a huge22 cause of problems not only for lead, but23 I see that happening as they crumble and24 the paint is going all over the place,25 221 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 but it's a huge problem for blight. I2 actually think -- and I will skip to --3 I'm going to leave a lot of things out4 here.5 I actually -- I think a lot of6 things, but I'm going to skip them, so7 let me jump to the things that I think8 matter.9 Clearly, there's a problem that10 needs to be addressed. If we looked at11 the cost of the inspecting the way it's12 designed, to use an EPA-certified person13 multiple times, nobody is getting by14 once, and I've done it in my own home.15 It doesn't happen. It's not 375. It16 might be two or three times. Fifteen17 hundred dollars, twelve hundred, whatever18 it is, breaks my economic ability to19 continue investing in the City. Just no20 question about it.21 Also, if you look at the cost22 of doing that, have a lead test done,23 have the landlord responsible, have the24 landlord responsible for reporting the25 222 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 results, but the money that we're2 spending on testing could go to3 remediation, which is much more important4 than creating a bigger industry of people5 testing. We need more remediation.6 I actually think this will7 raise the rents unnecessarily. I will8 have to raise the rents to my tenants. I9 think it's going to hurt the tax base of10 the City. I think it's going to depress11 home sales and encourage foreclosures. I12 can bring you a list of properties that13 I've purchased that are worth less than14 the cost of what this bill will make15 people do. It's going to encourage16 abandonment of damaged properties,17 further devastating blight in the worst18 neighborhoods, and it clearly will scare19 small investors away.20 I also think that if you look21 at the low-income housing in22 Philadelphia, it's something like 7823 percent. They can't afford the rent24 increase, and it will clearly push them25 223 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 to the unlicensed units that I compete2 with every day, which charge less rent3 than I do for a worse product. But4 people won't be able to afford the higher5 rents required because we're being6 penalized.7 It's a collective problem. It8 was caused for a hundred years of9 industry, the gas that was used, the10 paint that was used, and it's putting the11 burden on very small businesses like12 myself and other investors here.13 (Applause.)14

People need15 personal responsibility. When I found16 that my home was lead infested, I did17 everything I could, and I keep it clean.18 My family makes fun of me because I walk19 around sometimes with baby wipes.20 They're teenagers now. But my tenants21 don't do that. There is no reason that22 we can't educate. The EPA brochures, I23 can't even read them. I know my tenants24 can't. Why hasn't the City done25 224 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 something on public education with a2 one-page pictorial description - clean3 your house. It's not only lead, it's4 also infestation with rodents and others.5 So I see my time is up. I've6 made my point. I appreciate your work,7 and I know that you will work to do a8 better bill than this.9 Thank you.10

Thank you11 very much.12 (Applause.)13

Next.14 Thank you very much for taking time to15 come down to testify and staying all16 afternoon.17 Next.18

Good afternoon. My19 name is Larry Lunsk. L-U-N-S-K is the20 last name. I'm an investor. I have 2521 units in West Philly, and I've been doing22 this for 35 years. I rehabbed seven23 buildings, and a number of these24 buildings were boarded up buildings when25 225 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 I bought them several years ago.2 Now, I also worked for a state3 environmental protection agency for many4 years and we were involved with clean-up5 projects, and what happened back in the6 1980's is, banks -- as people all the7 sudden started calling our office,8 saying, We can't sell our property unless9 we get a letter from the state agency10 that says the property is clean because11 the bank will not lend money, and that12 started a whole program where we got13 involved with all these different14 clean-up projects. And most of the15 problem was lead-contaminated soil, which16 is everywhere, and people could not clean17 up their properties and numerous18 companies just went under. These were19 little companies, mom-and-pop companies,20 that just couldn't compete, and they just21 went under and just disappeared.22 Now, what scares the living23 hell out of me about this stuff is, what24 happens when these different laws get25 226 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 passed and banks do whatever they want to2 do and then you want to sell your3 property and the bank says, Well, we're4 not going to give the new person a5 mortgage unless it's certified to be lead6 free? And then you're going to get7 involved with a huge mess with banks and8 lending institutions. So what's going to9 happen is, it's going to just create more10 and more of a crisis as time goes on. So11 there's going to be a tremendous problem12 here when you try to sell a property13 where you have to get a certification.14 The whole certification process15 is a mess to begin with, because if you16 have 61,000 units and let's say 5017 percent of them turn over every year,18 you're talking about 30,000 inspections,19 not once but per year. Now, to get these20 inspections done, you have to have21 certification firms. The certification22 firms, there's very few of them around.23 I went to a meeting the other night, I24 was told there's 17 firms in this region25 227 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 that do this work, and out of the 17,2 maybe two of them have the proper3 approvals. So how this is going to be4 done is a mystery to me. I have no idea5 how this is going to even take place.6 Then once they come in to do an7 inspection, then of course there's going8 to be a problem, and then there's a9 tremendous liability involved. Like what10 happens they do an inspection, they say,11 It's okay, and then someone moves in with12 a child and they get lead poisoning and13 then there will be a lawsuit?14 Most of these firms have to be15 out of their minds to certify something16 where there's so many variables in the17 system to begin with with lead dust18 coming in from everywhere in creation.19 (Applause.)20

So what that does,21 that kills that argument right away. You22 can't get -- it's going to be hard to get23 certified. Then once someone certifies,24 then they're open to liability, and then25 228 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 you get a situation with lending2 institutions who won't lend money to3 people to buy your buildings.4 Now, I've been in this business5 35 years. I'm 64 years old, and I want a6 decent return on my investment. So I7 want to sell my stuff and I want to make8 sure someone can buy it to continue the9 business cycle going on.10 The other issue I have here is,11 Philadelphia was a viable place when I12 was a kid growing up in the 1950's.13 There was businesses in every14 neighborhood. Every neighborhood was15 viable. The school system was good. But16 what happened through City government17 incompetence, business was driven out of18 the City, the under class moved in, the19 middle class moved out. The middle class20 is basically gone. Every neighborhood I21 lived in with my mother is a disaster22 zone. Some places look like Germany23 after World War II. That's how bad it24 is.25 229 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 So what I'm saying is is that2 if you want to improve things here, there3 are thousands and thousands of abandoned4 buildings. Make it easy, get out of the5 way, government, and make it easy for6 people like people in this room to invest7 money in buildings. They could be given8 away. People could bring it up to code.9 The government doesn't need to be10 involved.11 And the other thing is, I'm12 ashamed of the fact that you people call13 yourself democrats. Democrats are for14 the little person, not the big people.15 And that is really a shame. I don't know16 how you can even sit there and call17 yourselves democrats.18 That's all I have to say.19 Thank you very much.20 (Applause.)21

Well, we22 appreciate the fact that you came in and23 testified, and we want to say that we,24 the democrats, gave you an open forum to25 230 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 insult us. Thank you.2 Go ahead.3

Good evening.4 My name is Boris Zacharczuk. I am an5 immigrant long time ago to City of6 Philadelphia and I graduated from Drexel7 University and I've also taught at Drexel8 University, and I wanted to supplement my9 income by buying property in City of10 Philadelphia. That was about 35 to 4011 years ago. I'm 77, almost 78 years now.12 I'm still running the property trying to13 rent it and trying to supplement my14 income, because my Social Security is15 insufficient. And these increase in16 taxes and expenses in running the17 apartment in the City of Philadelphia18 puts a tremendous squeeze on me and I19 have no rights to supplement my income.20 And unfortunately this new law that is21 being proposed is going to increase the22 expenses to such a level that I may have23 to sell the property if it's -- there is24 a buyer or just abandon it.25 231 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 The expenses are phenomenal2 right now of the past several years.3 Tenants move in. I have a number of4 efficiencies and one-bedroom units. Very5 seldom I have a child in the unit,6 because it's only single or two people in7 a unit. Yet, I will have to pay 500 or8 600 or more dollars to inspect or9 reinspect the unit every time somebody10 moves out. And the efficiencies, they11 don't live there very long. They're12 about four months, six months, they move13 out. They go on to some place. So I14 would have to reinspect it every time.15 And this would be an adult. No child is16 in the unit. So I think if there is no17 child moving in or living there, I don't18 think it has to be reinspected.19 For about 35 or 40 years, I've20 always maintained the properties in good21 position. Every time somebody moved out,22 the property continuously had to be23 repainted and fixed up. I don't run a24 slum area, and I'm trying to take care of25 232 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 the individuals to the best I can, those2 renters, but unfortunately some of them3 renters are not very nice and very4 difficult to screen them, and then you5 wind up with a tenant that comes in, stop6 paying rent, either that or in this7 economic situation, he was working and8 once he got the apartment, all the sudden9 two or three relatives of his move in in10 this efficiency apartment, overcrowding11 it, so I have to terminate their lease12 and evict them. The eviction process13 takes at least two months or maybe three14 months. The cost -- and I do that all15 myself at City of Philadelphia in court,16 and it costs me close to $400 with all17 the fees just to get to the point where I18 can get a locksmith to change the lock19 and evict them. After eviction, they20 come in, break in, take the stuff out,21 and now I have a major renovation22 necessary for the apartment.23 When I started in this24 business, it wasn't that bad. It wasn't25 233 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 bad at all. The costs are not -- people2 are more reasonable. Right now it is3 extremely, extremely expensive and4 cost -- unreasonable to run the5 apartments. So putting another bill,6 another bill in front of me for7 inspection every time I have to rent it8 over and above all the things that I have9 to go through, it is absolutely10 impossible to run this thing.11 I've tried to -- Ms. Tasco,12 we've met quite some times ago under much13 more cordial conditions.14 Unfortunately --15

We're16 cordial.17

You were at18 Ukrainian Center at one time. I was19 President there. You were an invited20 guest. Unfortunately, we are in opposite21 end of the table. Very sad that I have22 to come up and testify at this.23 Please, I'll be brief. I'm not24 a big talker, and I just appreciate that25 234 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 you listen to me and consider the2 situation that I had. I tried to do my3 best, but unfortunately it's getting to4 be very bad.5 Thank you.6

Well,7 thank you so much for coming down. Thank8 you for staying, and we appreciate your9 testimony.10 (Applause.)11

Thank you.12 Good afternoon, sir.13

Thank you for14 letting me testify today. My name is15 Henry Hauptfuhrer.16 There's been a lot of heat17 today, and I hope there's been some light18 as well as far as ideas on this19 legislation. I think everybody takes it20 seriously as far as kids and lead paint21 poisoning. My background is a chemist.22 I'm very familiar with hazardous23 materials. And matter of fact, another24 trivia point is my great-grandfather25 235 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 served on City Council and probably sat2 where you sit today, and I certainly feel3 sympathy for the difficult decisions you4 need to make.5 I'm also a landlord, and my6 apartments are lead safe. And I know7 that because they're properly maintained.8 I have the proper inspections, licenses9 and rental suitability permits, et10 cetera. I follow the rules, and I11 provide the proper lead paint paperwork12 for each of my leases when I present them13 to the tenants.14 It's a no-brainer to provide a15 lead-safe property if property owners16 follow the existing regulation.17 When I bought the properties18 I've had in Center City Philadelphia --19 and I've renovated three of them -- none20 of them were licensed and all of them had21 violations. All my buildings are up to22 code, and I'm proud of them, and I'd be23 happy to take you through them.24 Many of us in this room grew up25 236 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 in houses with lead paint and we have not2 suffered any ill effects. Most states3 today -- most children today are safe in4 these houses, again as long as they're5 properly maintained and cleaned.6 But we do have some serious7 issues with kids that are getting8 poisoned, so we need to deal with that,9 and I don't deny that problem, but the10 bill as it's drafted is deeply flawed.11 And one problem I have in particular is12 the required testing of apartments or13 single-family houses each time that it's14 rented, regardless of whether or not a15 child is going to live there and16 regardless of the condition of the17 building.18 As we've discussed, lead19 testing is not cheap and it can cost20 anywhere from $300 to $700. So with this21 legislation, for a new renter I will need22 to collect not only my first month rent,23 my last month rent and a security24 deposit, but I also need to start25 237 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 collecting $300 to $700 for a lead test,2 and that's if I'm successful.3 Now, let's do the math. I have4 eight apartments, and none of my renters5 happen to have children, for whatever6 reason. But assuming a rental unit turns7 over between every one and two years, I8 would need to collect anywhere from9 $2,400 to $5,600 every year or two in10 order to protect children that do not11 exist in these buildings.12 I guarantee you --13 (Applause.)14

I guarantee15 you that my renters and all renters16 without children -- with or without17 children throughout the City are going to18 be angry about this, because this19 expenditure is simply throwing money down20 a rat hole. Pardon the terminology. But21 it does not help any children whatsoever22 when you're testing a facility that does23 not have children.24 So as I sit here today, I'm a25 238 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 landlord and I am no doubt speaking not2 only for myself but also for the tenants3 that live in my building. They're4 saying, Okay, I need to pay what?5 Between three and seven6 hundred.7 And what's that for?8 Well, that's to test for your9 apartment or your house in order to10 protect the children that are there.11 And they're going to say, Well,12 there's no children here.13 I'm going to say, Well, it's14 there to protect the children that are15 there.16 And so it doesn't make any17 sense that way. So we're putting a lot18 money, literally millions of dollars19 worth of unneeded testing, into something20 that doesn't accomplish anything. I'd be21 much happier to see -- multiply this many22 times over. You're talking about23 millions of dollars each year that could24 be spent. I'd be happy to have a portion25 239 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 of that go into some sort of a fund and2 then provide the proper testing and the3 proper education and the proper4 remediation, particularly for families5 that need it and that can't afford it.6 (Applause.)7

So I think we8 really need to be aware that the way it's9 currently legislated, we're throwing a10 lot of money into a big hole over here11 where there's no kids. The kids are over12 here and there's the problem. So let's13 take a little bit of that if we need to14 and bring it over and help the kids.15 So we have basically, as we16 said prior, we have over 80 percent of17 the rental properties have huge18 low-income tenant issues, and if you19 start throwing these on there, you're20 going to tip the balance. So let's keep21 aware of this.22 So this hammer -- this bill is23 really a sledgehammer and not a scalpel,24 and we need to be able to focus this.25 240 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 There are ways that we can use fees.2 There's ways that we can use tax3 incentives. And, you know, there's a lot4 of states that also provide a tax on5 gasoline and paint in order to really6 supercharge remediation and education and7 everything else. Let's start looking at8 those things.9 The other thing that I'm10 worried about is, this again is a11 sledgehammer of a bill, not a scalpel.12 It's not going really and addressing the13 kids. All the money that we're spending14 as a result of this bill is going into a15 hole.16 And the other thing is is that17 not only does it affect all the real18 estate issues that have been talked19 about, but it also creates a toxic stew,20 because in this legislation you throw in21 attorney fees and opportunities for free22 rent, where bad tenants can game the23 system, where landlords that have done24 the best they can and lead, for whatever25 241 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 reason, is coming from other sources or2 whatever, can be held liable. I mean,3 what am I going --4 (Applause.)5

What am I6 going to be able to do for insurance?7 Insurance bills are going to skyrocket8 when they know I'm from Philadelphia and9 I have this liability, that somebody can10 then all the sudden start suing me for --11 and I've done everything in my power to12 make a lead-safe property.13 So thank you very much for your14 time. I really wish that you strongly15 consider these pitfalls and continue to16 work, not only with the landlords and17 these fees, if we collect them, can also18 address private residences. We need to19 address that. And also we need to have20 the tenants involved, because this is21 ultimately, whatever we do here, is going22 to affect rent and it's going to affect23 some of the most at-risk members of our24 city.25 242 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 So thank you very much for your2 time.3

Thank you.4 (Applause.)5

Thank you6 very much.7 One moment. Councilwoman Brown8 would like to comment. We thank you for9 your thoughtful testimony.10

We do11 thank you for your thoughtful testimony12 and those and many other witnesses that13 have come to the table. There is an14 enormous amount of misinformation, bad15 information, inaccurate information and16 not current information in this room as17 we speak.18 Many may have to leave. At the19 end of the hearing, we will go into a20 public meeting, and in that public21 meeting there will be a number of22 amendments, also known as adjustments,23 also known as changes to this bill, that24 your representative organizations have25 243 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 brought to our attention. We have heard2 many of the very legitimate concerns3 raised. We are listening to you.4 But two things. One, you need5 to know that your first panel that6 represents your world have spoken to7 these concerns well already.8 And, two, we've heard them.9 And, three, there are going to10 be a number of changes that you'll be11 very pleased with because of that.12 Lastly, this bill is not about13 remediation. That's where we started.14 We're now at the lowest possible15 standard, which is called dust wipes. So16 this notion of $400, $500, $600, in the17 vernacular of the street, kill that18 noise. We're looking at the minimum19 standard and whatever that cost is of20 dust wipes that come with that minimum21 standard.22 So I need to share that now,23 because many have to leave and you will24 not have the benefit of that information25 244 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 at the end of the hearing.2 Thank you very much.3

Now, we4 will have to take a ten-minute break5 because the stenographer has been here6 all afternoon, and there are laws7 governing her performance. It's 5:18.8 We'll be back at 5:30.9 (Short recess.)10

The11 meeting is called to order.12 The next panel will be Brian13 Quinn, Benjamin Shinabum, Ross Stuart,14 Jane Broderson, Carolyn Boxmeyer, Earl15 Moore, Bill Schwartz and John Gardner.16 If you're here, please come forward, and17 we're going to hold you to two minutes.18 I have 30 people waiting.19 (Witnesses approached witness20 table.)21

May I lead off,22 please?23

Yes. And24 you're going to be two minutes, right?25 245 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1

I can be under2 that. I've run out of oxygen.3

Okay.4 Don't run out of oxygen. I couldn't take5 it. You couldn't take it either.6

Everything that I7 planned on talking about, I have to leave8 out of it now because of my condition,9 but I just offered Councilwoman Brown an10 idea that I came across in very recent11 reading of research that has been going12 on.13