I'm not17 going to debate you. My role is not to18 debate you. My ask is that you will19 follow the example of the leaders of20 HAPCO and other apartment associations21 and treat people the way you want to be22 treated, starting with my staff.23 Thank you.24 (Applause.)25 159 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1
I was very nice2 to your staff on the phone. I was very3 nice to your staff on the phone.4
Good5 afternoon. Would you state your name for6 the record, please.7
Yes. It's a8 privilege to be here. I'm Dr. Tom9 Vernon. I was formerly the Director of10 the Colorado Department of Health and the11 Environment, the equivalent of the12 Secretary of the Department of Health in13 Pennsylvania.14 I want to say first that I15 agree entirely with the testimony given16 by Nan Feyler, including her passion.17 This is an issue that we in public health18 can deal with, and we should have19 completely eliminated lead poisoning20 among children many years before now.21 I've spent my career in public22 health searching for ways through public23 policy to improve our health, and it's24 been vaccination requirements for25 160 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 schools, seatbelts, child seat2 restraints, smoking bans in public3 places. All of those have been met with4 opposition because of cost. It has5 always been the opposition. But minimal6 cost, the cost of a shot, the cost of a7 seat restraint and the like. But look8 how much better we are off now because of9 the efforts we've made through public10 policy in improving the health status of11 our children.12 With the exception of childhood13 vaccines, I have to say that as far as14 this bill goes, it's the best buy that I15 have seen in a long time for improving16 children's health.17 Now, I do want to comment on18 something that was stated earlier. It19 astonishes me that because there is lead20 dust outside of the house, that it would21 be claimed that the lead dust inside of a22 house with deteriorated paint in it is a23 result of the lead dust that's coming24 from outside the house. That's simply25 161 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 passing the buck to something else that2 has to be dealt with as well. And so3 this bill will go some way toward what we4 need to do.5 Now, one added point that has6 not been made. I want you to know that7 we are going to be looking at what is8 perceived as a new epidemic in childhood9 lead poisoning in the very near future.10 An advisory committee to the Childhood11 Lead Poisoning Program at the Centers for12 Disease Control is recommending a13 dramatic reduction in the lead level14 which becomes the federal standard for15 lead poisoning. We've talked about16 almost a thousand children who have been17 poisoned in Philadelphia in a year.18 That's at the ten microgram level, which19 has been around for some time. This20 reduction will be to five micrograms or21 less, and we will shortly be looking at a22 substantial number of children who are23 labeled now as poisoned who were not24 before, a lot more than 946, or what the25 162 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 exact number was.2 Finally, on a very tough point.3 All of us in public health are struggling4 with the issue of health disparities,5 those major disparities among racial6 groups, particularly between whites and7 blacks. We have virtually solved that8 problem in childhood vaccinations and the9 prevention of childhood preventable10 diseases. We can solve that problem with11 childhood lead poisoning, and this12 legislation will help.13
Yes. We20 simply need to underscore your interest21 and your willingness to travel from afar22 and affirm what you've heard on -- are23 you -- you're not from Colorado?24
Let me be clear.25 163 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 I moved into Councilman Clarke's district2 20 years ago.3
Welcome4 back. Your interest is appreciated, and5 it does take varying perspectives from6 all sides of the issue to move to a7 neutral position where we're going to not8 change the world, but make a dent of a9 difference for kids that we say we care10 about.11 Thank you.12 (Applause.)13
Mr. Roy14 Wade, Dr. Roy Wade, and Dr. Nathan Blum,15 Dr. Jerilynn Radcliffe and Sherrie South,16 if they're still here.17 (No response.)18
Okay.19 Moving on, we will now have Mr. Alan20 Folkman, Justin Moore, Al Brown, Steve21 Schatz and Mack Duncan.22 (Witnesses approached witness23 table.)24
Thank you25 164 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 all for coming. You've been here. I've2 watched you all afternoon, and you've3 heard the testimony, and we will keep4 your testimony to two minutes. Thank5 you. Whoever.6
Hello. I guess7 I'm up. My name is Steve Schatz. I'm8 one of the little guys here. I'm a small9 landlord. I have five properties, mostly10 in the Center City Philadelphia area, and11 I'm asking you to reconsider this bill,12 possibly table it and work with the13 landlord and real estate community to14 come up with something that would really15 protect kids.16 I've got a written statement,17 but I supposed that you heard enough18 leaden statements today that you don't19 want to hear another one, so let me kind20 of speak off the cuff as best I can.21 The things that this bill will22 not do: You say it will make a dent, but23 from my perspective, it will be a small24 dent. After you pass this bill, there25 165 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 will be thousands of unlicensed landlords2 in the City of Philadelphia who will3 continue to abuse the properties and4 their tenants that will not be affected5 by this bill.6 This bill does not touch the7 many tens of thousands of homes that are8 owner-occupied and may be sources of lead9 contamination for children. It seems to10 me if you really want to have a11 comprehensive program to protect kids,12 looking at owner-occupied homes and13 educating their owners and the children14 is an important step.15 This bill will not eliminate16 lead from where children work and play.17 Nothing in this bill attends to the issue18 of lead in the public schools, in the19 playgrounds. And there is a legacy of20 lead, from my brief study of this21 subject, a legacy of lead in Philadelphia22 resulting from our industrial past and23 from leaded gasoline from the first24 automobile that ran the streets of25 166 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 Philadelphia, which was, what, 19022 through 1984. All of that lead has3 contaminated our environment, and it is4 not just emitting from within the homes,5 but from without the homes.6 I'll try to wrap it up here.7 One of the things that I'm8 hearing in the testimony was of9 particular outrage to me was a woman10 representing one of the social services11 agencies who accused me essentially of12 being a criminal seeking to profit from13 poisoning kids. Well, that's just14 outrageous, and that's the kind of15 divisive rhetoric that will do nothing to16 protect children or solve the issue of17 lead poisoning. We're not evil people.18 If you go --19 (Applause.)20
If you go past our21 homes, and they're mostly Center City and22 they're not lower income rental23 properties, you will see the kinds of24 homes that you wish Philadelphia would25 167 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 aspire to. There are window boxes that2 are planted, flowers and greens. There3 are gleaming brass fixtures in the doors,4 knockers and mail slots. You go in the5 house, you will see painstakingly6 restored many of the historical features7 that originally were attributed to the8 property brought back lovingly, and tons9 of moulding, crown moulding, picture10 moulding, chair rail moulding that much11 of which yours truly on his hands and12 knees and learning how to use a nail gun13 put in. It would be a shame, it would be14 a shame to have to destroy all of that.15 Why don't we work together to16 come up with some reasonable regulations,17 some reasonable and enforceable law that18 will really make a dent in the issue of19 lead poisoning.20 My daughter lived in one of our21 houses, and so I will put my good word22 and good efforts into protecting kids as23 I protected my own. Let's work together.24 Thank you very much.25 168 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 (Applause.)2
My name is Mack3 Duncan. I'm a land owner, landlord.4 I've been one for about 40 years, not a5 big one, but been trying to be a good6 landlord. I've scratched off most of the7 things on my list, but I did want to8 mention one thing, and that's about the9 reinspection.10 When a tenant is going to move11 into a unit, we need to get certified; am12 I correct? When that tenant moves out,13 we need to get recertified. Am I wrong?14
Maybe. Because my16 concern is that as a landlord, I'm not17 going to do anything to contaminate the18 unit. If I get it passed once, what19 would I do to cause it to not pass again?20 But as a landlord, as I understand it,21 I'm going to have to pay the cost to22 prove that my place is satisfactory. I23 have to prove that. I don't think I24 should necessarily have to do that if25 169 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 it's a cost, and especially I hear costs2 running up to $700 or $800.3
Let me4 just say this: There has been a lot of5 discussion about this legislation in the6 last couple of days, and many of those --7 some of the questions that have been8 raised today have been raised during that9 discussion, and the Chair and the sponsor10 of this bill will be offering some11 amendments, but we have to go through the12 hearing first.13
That's all we're14 asking, is that things be looked at in15 some kind of a --16 (Applause.)17
I love children.18 I have five grandchildren. They don't19 live in Philly. I have to travel to see20 them. But as a landlord, we would not do21 anything to hurt children. So we need to22 be on that same, but we need to also not23 give false hope. We all breathe this24 lead dust. We all breathe it. Why is it25 170 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 that some kids are getting a bigger2 problem than some other kids? We need to3 look at that. It may be -- we keep4 hearing about these toys coming from5 China, lead-based toys, that they find6 shipments of them, they send them back,7 but they only find a small amount of8 them. Maybe that's part of the problem.9 It's about educating the mothers. It's10 about educating the mothers and making11 sure we do our part, and that's all we12 ask, is that that be included, because13 once this bill passes, it's gone.14 Whatever is not fixed at that point15 probably won't get fixed for another ten16 years.17 So let's just take the time.18 And I know it's been two years. Three19 years is a long time, but let's take the20 time to make sure we're doing something21 that really helps. That's all I need.22 That's my place.23
Thank you24 very much. We appreciate you coming25 171 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 down.2 (Applause.)3
My4 neighbor. He's my neighbor, a community5 activist in the 50th Ward, the 9th6 District.7 Go ahead.8
Good afternoon.9 I want to thank the members of the10 Council for allowing me to address you.11 My name is Alan Folkman. I am a member12 of the Greater Philadelphia Association13 of Realtors, and I am not an activist,14 but I have read the bill, and right now15 I'm most concerned with just being a16 survivor. I represent almost 200 small17 property owners as well as myself. None18 of them are large corporations. Many are19 retired and they live on their rental20 income. They are not slumlords. Our21 properties are meticulously maintained22 and pose absolutely no threat to our23 tenants. In fact, all the properties24 have complied to all City safety25 172 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 ordinances. They all have smoke2 detectors, Class B certified fire alarms.3 They have fire extinguishers and carbon4 monoxide detectors. They are certified5 annually, as per the law. We never6 considered opposing any of these7 measures, because they make sense and8 they save lives, but this bill does9 neither.10 I've worked my whole life.11 I've invested the largest amount of my12 money and future into real estate. The13 terms of this bill are so severe that it14 threatens the future viability of all15 I've worked for. This bill, through the16 use of old data, voodoo statistics,17 misinformation, is being presented --18 (Applause.)19
-- as the end-all20 solution to lead poisoning in this city.21 It is not. It will do little to change22 things. Why? Even if all 71,00023 licensed rental units in this city24 attempted to comply, the bill as written25 173 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 will do nothing to enforce the problem of2 the 200,000-plus unlicensed properties.3 (Applause.)4
And this city has5 made little or no effort to go after6 them. These are the properties that need7 to be addressed, along with the day care8 centers, schools, libraries and rec9 centers where children congregate.10 (Applause.)11
It makes no sense12 that this bill aims at apartments where13 there are no children and completely14 neglects to mandate the changes at the15 very places where children are at risk.16 The standards of this bill are17 unachievable. Landlords did not cause18 the contamination. Only 60 years ago19 Philadelphia was the manufacturing20 powerhouse with a population of 2.121 million. This caused a great deal of22 pollution, as did seven years of leaded23 gas and leaded paint. This contamination24 remains with us in the soil and in the25 174 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 air to this day.2 As the manufacturing plants3 left the City, so did hundreds of4 thousands of citizens. The plants,5 factories and warehouses that supported6 this industry were all contaminated. The7 100,000 abandoned houses left by the8 fleeing population are all contaminated,9 and they are still ignored by the City.10 As they crumble or are demolished, they11 continue to release more lead into the12 environment.13 I can spend thousands and14 thousands of dollars trying to clean up15 all the invisible environmental dust out16 of a house, but all you have to do is17 open the door and it comes right back in.18 (Applause.)19
Under this bill,20 tenants could not only refuse to pay21 rent, but they can actually sue for22 damages, even when there is no reasonable23 risk to their safety or their welfare.24 The landlord's responsibility should be25 175 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 limited to the lead sources in the house,2 not in the environment.3 I've taken time to read the4 lead ordinances in several other cities5 and I will comment on them shortly, but6 one major difference to be noted is that7 while other cities have worked in8 conjunction with landlords, going after9 the paint and oil companies, by10 developing policies to deal with these11 issues and funds to assist landlords,12 Philadelphia is content to point fingers13 and place 100 percent of the cost upon14 us. Why? Because we are identifiable15 and we are available. Make no mistake,16 we are the scapegoats in this.17 (Applause.)18
The proposals in19 this bill are not based on facts or20 science, and if this bill passes, the21 value of our properties will plummet.22 Who in their right mind would buy a23 rental property in this city under these24 conditions? And what mortgage company25 176 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 will finance the property guaranteed to2 lose values? And what happens to the3 City's tax base when this happens? Has4 anyone on the Committee stopped to5 consider the long-term effects?6 (Applause.)7
Here are some8 more facts which seem to have been9 overlooked: Half the children of the10 City live with their parents in homes11 they own. There is nothing in the bill12 to address this. And PHA, probably the13 City's largest landlord of children, will14 most likely be exempt from this bill. In15 essence, the vast majority of children16 will not benefit from this bill, and my17 clients, who have no children living in18 their houses or apartments at all, will19 have to comply, while the unlicensed20 landlords skate by with no effect.21 How can you ask landlords who22 have worked hard, improved their23 properties and invested heavily to take24 these risks and function under these25 177 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 conditions?2 Over the past few years, this3 city has implemented numerous laws which4 have consistently targeted landlords. If5 a tenant fails to pay a water bill, go6 after the landlord. If the tenant7 doesn't pay a gas bill, go after the8 landlord.9 (Applause.)10
If the tenant11 puts out the trash early, go after the12 landlord. The City needs additional13 money? Let's pass a trash bill aimed14 specifically at landlords and let's15 charge the landlords $150.16 (Applause.)17
And the following18 year, let's double it to $300, and let's19 make it retroactive while we're at it.20
Would you21 please summarize your testimony, please.22 We have all these --23 (Audience members yelling.)24
Madam Chairwoman,25 178 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 I will do my best.2
I have at3 least 60 people who are here to testify.4 Okay?5
You are8 repeating what has already been said. So9 please finish.10
Passage of this11 ill-conceived and poorly written bill in12 its current form, without any concern for13 its implementation, its cost or the14 effect on property values, amount to15 nothing less than an assault on16 landlords.17 Let me repeat, that we would18 support a bill crafted to solve the19 problem of lead ingestion by children.20 However, this is not that bill. Please21 do not be fooled by this bill's intention22 or be intimidated by fearing that vote23 against this will appear to be a vote24 against children's health. We concede25 179 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 that this bill has the best intentions,2 but as written, it will do little to3 solve the problem.4 In closing, I would like to5 address one final point. Much has been6 made that other cities and states have7 already passed comparable lead state8 bills. While I'm not a lawyer and I only9 had a short time to review a few of them,10 but I would say that this bill is hardly11 comparable. The New York City law is by12 far the most comprehensive, but even it13 bears little resemblance to this bill.14 The New York law is limited to children15 six and under. The city does the16 inspection, not the owner. In fact,17 having read five or six of the other18 statutes listed on this bill, I could not19 find a single law which required the20 owner to find and pay for a private21 inspector. In New York, condos, co-ops,22 single-family houses are exempt. In23 other jurisdictions, lofts and studios24 are exempt. There is nothing in the New25 180 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 York law about a landlord's criminal2 liability or the tenant's right to sue3 for damages.4 In fact, the things that the5 New York law and the Philadelphia6 proposed law have most in common is that7 they would both be laws and they would8 both use the word "lead." They are in no9 way comparable, nor were any of the other10 statutes that I pored through this whole11 weekend while I tried to watch the12 Eagles.13 If you take the time and14 understand how flawed this bill is, you15 must vote against it strictly on its16 merits.17 I thank you for your time.18
Good21 afternoon. Would you identify yourself,22 please, for the record.23
Yes. I'm Alan24 Krigman. I own and operate 11 rental25 181 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 buildings with a total of 30 units. My2 management company is at 45th and Walnut,3 and I live at 45th and Walnut. I have a4 full-time payroll of four people,5 including myself. I've never been6 accused of brevity before, but I'm going7 to try to break the mold today.8 Much of what I planned to say9 on these ten pages has already been said10 better than I can say it. But, A, I'd11 like to reiterate that no right-minded12 person would argue against the importance13 of protecting children from lead14 poisoning.15 (Applause.)16
But this bill17 will not do the job it's supposed to do,18 and as Mr. Sims from HAPCO said, that19 makes it a feel-good piece of20 legislation, because you, City Council,21 can sit back and think we've solved the22 problem, and they haven't.23 To reiterate one of the things24 that Alan said, let me give you the25 182 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 numbers in a slightly different way.2 This enforcement mechanism that you've3 been -- this bill is unenforceable,4 except that you've built in an5 enforcement mechanism that doesn't make6 any sense. The enforcement mechanism7 essentially limits enforcement to8 licensed housing providers. That's 269 percent of all rental housing --10 (Applause.)11
-- using L&I's12 numbers for how many licenses they've13 issued and the 2010 census for how many14 rental units there are in the City.15 On top of that, there's roughly16 about 50/50 -- I forget exactly the17 numbers -- owner-occupied versus rental18 housing, and it doesn't apply to the19 owner-occupied. Therefore, you're only20 talking about 26 percent of the rental21 housing and half of the total housing.22 You're talking about 12 -- something like23 12 percent of the kids that live in this24 city. This bill is only protecting a25 183 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 small number of them.2 On top of that, as has been3 pointed out, the people who are licensed,4 the ones that you can go after, are the5 more responsible rental housing6 providers.7 (Applause.)8
Take a look for9 yourself. Come and take a tour. We'll10 be happy to give you a tour, unannounced.11 You can come any time you want, through12 any of our buildings, and then let's go13 to see some of the places that aren't14 licensed.15 (Applause.)16
If you think that17 spending three to four hundred bucks per18 new leased unit is a small amount of19 money, I'm sorry, maybe you're spoiled by20 making six figures. We don't make six21 figures. I can tell you that if I have22 to incur that kind of a cost, it's got to23 come out somewhere. It's going to go24 into a higher rent or I'm going to have25 184 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 to start charging a lease application fee2 that covers the cost of the inspection.3 Now, for a tenant to move into4 one of my apartments or almost anybody's,5 because of some of the other laws, we've6 got to make them pay first month's rent,7 last month's rent and security deposit.8 Somebody that has a cheap apartment,9 let's say 600 bucks for a good size10 apartment that can handle their family,11 has to put up 1,800 bucks just to move12 in. They may be able to afford the 600 a13 month. Some of those people haven't got14 $1,800 that they can put together. We've15 had people that have said, I love the16 apartment, what can you do for me? Can17 you spread out these extra costs? And18 the answer is, unfortunately I can't, and19 the reason I can't is because I've been20 burned too many times to be able to do21 that.22 (Applause.)23
Would you24 please summarize your testimony.25 185 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1
Let me ask you5 the following rhetorical questions.6 Parental responsibility, what's that? We7 give out all these pieces of literature8 about looking for lead-safe and lead-safe9 houses. The City has not done the10 educational job through public service11 announcements, signs on public buildings,12 schools or other things to get people13 accustomed to what is parental14 responsibility. It has to do with15 keeping your apartment clean, as has been16 pointed out. The CDC --17 (Applause.)18
The CDC and EPA19 have recommended twice a month20 damp-mopping of floors and damp-wiping of21 windowsills that virtually eliminate the22 hazard of lead poisoning, even though the23 dust is there.24 Also, the CDC and EPA have25 186 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 recommended diets. Have we talked to2 people about the fact feed your kids3 diets high in iron, calcium and vitamin4 A, vitamin C. Stay away from fatty5 stuff. Let's find out, do the people who6 are coming in and being tested high, what7 are their diets? I'd venture to say8 their parents are feeding them junk food,9 not because --10
-- you're15 affecting -- Mrs. Tasco, Councilwoman,16 with all due respect, you're looking at a17 bill that's affecting my livelihood, my18 employees' livelihood and the welfare of19 my tenants. I think you can spend a20 little bit of time listening to us. And21 while I am --22 (Applause.)23
You see25 187 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 all these people in here who want to2 testify?3
Then continue4 this hearing until some other day for the5 rest of it.6
We're7 going to end it today and we're going to8 ask you to finish.9
I think10 there's -- by the way -- all right. I'm11 going to finish, but I'm going to say12 this. This Committee has six people on13 it. Only three people are sitting here.14 Mrs. Tasco, you weren't even here for the15 hearing for the first version of the16 bill.17 Mrs. Reynolds Brown, you've18 spent an hour kibitzing with other people19 and not listening to us. You're showing20 us --21 (Applause and booing.)22
You're showing us23 a great deal of disrespect. And on top24 of that, I question the propriety of a25 188 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 bill that was introduced by you,2 Ms. Reynolds Brown, and you, Ms. Tasco.3 With all the best of intentions, of4 course, you introduced the bill. Now5 you're sitting in this committee as judge6 and jury. Why isn't the Housing7 Committee hearing this thing? You'll8 hear a much different response. Why9 don't the Housing Committee and --10
You can19 leave your whole testimony here. It will20 be part of the record.21
Let me tell22 you -- all right. I will. Let me finish23 with one other thing.24 Your statistics -- I have two25 189 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 degrees in engineering. I understand2 statistics very well. Your statistics3 are junk statistics. These maps mean4 nothing. You've counted the density of5 rental housing twice. What we should be6 looking at is instances of lead7 poisoning. And even there what would it8 prove? That they happen in places.9 This is no way to allocate our10 resources properly by pretending that the11 problem is all over the City when valid12 statistical studies have shown that we're13 talking about eight out of the 48 zip14 codes that have the highest instances of15 lead poisoning.16 Second, the first page of this17 document says, Lead paint ruins a child's18 life every nine minutes. That would be19 54,000 cases a year. You're implying20 that that's what we should worry about.21 That's not the City of Philadelphia. We22 don't have 54,000 kids in the City of23 Philadelphia.24 Next page, Lead paint poisoning25 190 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 affects over one million children today.2 Where is that? In the whole United3 States? In the whole world? We don't4 have that number.5 More statistics. Ms. --6
Your time7 is up. Your time is up. Thank you very8 much. Thank you very much.9 (Applause.)10
There is15 another hearing that was scheduled for16 this room at 3 o'clock. There are people17 here who are waiting for that hearing to18 begin. There are Councilmembers who are19 members of this Committee who are here.20 These hearings are scheduled on the21 schedule of a chair and/or the sponsor,22 and sometimes the Committee members23 cannot be physically in the room, but are24 in their offices listening on television25 191 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 or on the squawk box. And I don't know2 what I was doing when the hearing was in3 June, but if I was not here, I had a very4 darn good reason, and you don't have no5 right to chastise me.6 (Applause.)7
Because I10 was the one that passed the first lead11 bill back in 1990. Okay? Understand12 that.13
If you people14 were astonished by the number of people15 that wanted to speak, shame on you for16 not realizing the importance of this.17 (Applause and booing.)18
You have19 to wait your turn to testify, sir. Have20 you signed up to testify?21 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Yes,22 ma'am.23
Well, have24 a seat and we'll call on you soon.25 192 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 Go ahead, sir.2
Thank you for3 allowing me the opportunity to speak. My4 name is Al Brown. I am a landlord.5 I believe that the intent of6 the bill is great. We're all talking7 about the safety and the welfare of8 children. But I think the burden is9 being placed unfairly on who is going to10 be responsible for helping to remediate11 the issue with poisoning children with12 lead.13 I'd like to ask the Council14 Lady, do you have a home? Do you have15 children in your home?16
Yes. Or all three18 of you, do you have children in your19 house?20
Well, you visit,24 but you still have children that come in25 193 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 and out of your home. I'm quite sure2 then that you would be willing to have3 your home certified to make sure that4 your home is going to be safe for the5 children that's coming in and out of your6 house.7 (Applause.)8
So I think the9 expense and the burden -- I mean, we're10 all about the welfare and the health11 again of children, but you're placing,12 again, the burden on just one entity, and13 it's an unfair burden.14 I think that the bill needs to15 be re-looked at and re-tabled. I think16 we have to do something to eradicate the17 poisoning of our children, but just to18 single out one group is the wrong way to19 do it.20 (Applause.)21
I'm quite sure the22 children under the age of six years23 old -- I can bring my grandchildren into24 this building, but has City Hall been25 194 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 certified lead free? Is it safe?2 (Applause.)3
Can you provide a4 certificate for me to have that done?5 There's construction done in my6 neighborhood every day where they're7 tearing down homes. A lot of them are8 RDA homes that are blighted and they're9 falling down, have to be torn down, but10 these demolition contractors are tearing11 down the homes. There's no masking off,12 no watering down. I mean, if we're13 talking about protecting children, then14 it should be something in place to make15 sure that buildings are taken down16 properly. I mean, you can almost have a17 class action lawsuit. I mean, in my18 neighborhood I would come after the City19 for the dust that's in my community20 that's affecting the children, my21 children and children in the community.22 I had -- everything else would23 be redundant because everybody is saying24 basically the same thing, but this bill25 195 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 needs to be taken back and looked at how2 it could be -- how we can fairly help3 children and not add a burden on somebody4 else unfairly.5
Thank you6 very much for your testimony.7 (Applause.)8
Hi. How9 are you? Would you identify yourself for10 the record, please.11
Good evening. My12 name is Justin Moore. I'm a landlord and13 a small businessowner. I would like to14 thank you again for giving me the time to15 speak to you and for allowing me to be16 part of other stakeholder meetings. I17 will not be redundant. I will only focus18 on one point in the interest of time.19 I saw a lot of statistics out.20 I've seen signs held up. I didn't hear21 too many people who have actually gone22 through the lead remediation process23 speak, and as a developer through the NSP24 program, I've actually had to have25 196 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 properties remediated and get the2 certification.3 The initial test -- and I have4 the invoices to prove it -- cost me $500,5 and as reasonably expected with the6 houses built when they were, the house7 failed the first time, which means I had8 to have the guy come back out and retest9 after the remediation was done. It cost10 me another $500.11 I will not burden you with the12 remediation costs because that's relative13 to whatever property in the City of14 Philadelphia that that house is being15 done, but the testing is pretty much16 standardized.17 So in my personal instance,18 that cost me a thousand dollars in just19 testing alone. Now, you take an average20 landlord, which isn't this conglomerate21 who owns thousands of rental units and22 has millions of dollars, let's say our23 landlord only has ten units. At a24 thousand dollars per unit, that's25 197 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 $10,000. Now, I don't know how many2 folks in this room have $10,000 in their3 business accounts to spend on testing. I4 surely don't.5 Furthermore, if we did have the6 $10,000 that we could spend on the7 testing and the remediation, what happens8 when the water heater breaks? What9 happens when there's an electrical10 problem that you need to fix and there's11 no money to pay that?12 I spoke up here in June and I13 said that even if I did support the bill14 and wanted this bill, I couldn't be in15 compliance with it because I can't afford16 the testing by itself. So I'll be more17 clear and I'll be more direct.18 Passing this bill will put19 myself and a lot of landlords in my20 position out of business.21 Thank you.22 (Applause.)23
Thank you24 very much for taking time to come down to25 198 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 testify. We appreciate it very much.2 Our next panel, Joan Levin,3 Andy Cirone, Bill Jung, Seth Floyd,4 Stanley Daniel, Bill Avera. If those5 individuals are here, would you come6 forward.7 (Witnesses approached witness8 table.)9
Good10 afternoon. Thank you for coming. Would11 you identify yourself for the record,12 please.13
Hi. My name is Bill14 Jung. I'm a landlord in Philadelphia,15 been doing it for about 15 years.16 Everything that everybody said,17 everybody made great points. I just need18 to go back to the dollar value. If you19 look a cost per unit, I mean, currently20 I'm at about 35, 40 units. If it's a21 thousand dollars per unit to keep22 everything in business, I'm probably out23 of business.24 I've been doing this for 1525 199 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 years, bought one property a year. I2 don't know what the conglomerate is or3 how many people have few properties to a4 lot of properties. We're not big5 businesspeople. We worry about our6 tenants.7 I currently have a8 five-and-a-half-year-old daughter, which9 she does come with me to my apartments.10 She walks through after we do our11 cleaning. That's the last thing I want12 to see, is anybody getting hurt. Out of13 my units, I probably have 5 percent of14 children under six. I take more special15 care in those units to make sure things16 are safe, whether it be an electrical17 outlet or lead. But we can't control18 what goes on outside of our buildings,19 whether it be in the soil or gas or20 whatever.21 Just trying to stay in22 business. Our taxes are going up, our23 trash fees. I have $5,000 in trash fees24 sitting in front of me that need to be25 200 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 paid. The City keeps raising things and2 raising things, and your landlords are3 going to leave, sell their properties and4 put them in a different borough, which is5 going to lower the tax base and leave6 abandoned houses.7 That's all. Thank you.8
Thank you.9 Excuse me, sir. Let me10 interrupt you for a moment, please, to11 make this announcement.12 The Housing Committee hearing13 scheduled for 3:00 p.m. today, November14 the 30th, to consider Bill 110784 is15 recessed to Monday, December 5th, 2011 at16 10:00 a.m. So if any of you are here to17 hear the Housing bill, it is rescheduled18 to Monday, December the 5th, 2011 at19 10:00 a.m.20 Thank you very much.21
Thank you,22 Councilwoman. My name is Andy Cirone.23 I'm a landlord and small businessowner in24 Philadelphia. I do live in Philadelphia.25 201 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 I'm kind of going to piecemeal2 this, because I crossed out a lot of3 things that were mentioned already. So4 if it sounds scattered, excuse me.5 But it is always good to see6 City Council has our children of the City7 in their best interest, but sometimes8 trying to help can disturb the good9 actions that are already in progress.10 You'll be singling out property owners11 that are legitimate and already care12 about the well-being of the tenant by13 providing a residence fit and clean for14 healthy occupancy. I'm not personally15 one of those greedy landlords stereotyped16 on the Hollywood screen that everybody17 loves to make fun of. When I'm through18 with a property, I can live in it. I19 would not have a problem living in the20 properties I rent. Any time people come21 to look at these properties, they walk in22 there and go, Oh, my God, is this23 beautiful. I mean, it's not the Taj24 Mahal or anything, but it's clean. It's25 202 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 acceptable to anybody.2 I'd rather have a happy tenant3 than someone that's just going to be in4 there beating the place up. You give5 them a clean place, they take care of it6 then. They're more likely to take7 responsibility. And also to try to get8 someone in there, if I have to make a9 test up, the tenants are going to be long10 moved on or I'm going to be ordering11 inspections, waiting for results, if12 mediation is needed. They're going to be13 in some place. And I see this causing14 those tenants to move to a property15 that's charging a lower rent, only16 because the owner will most likely not be17 licensed and incurring these charges.18 (Applause.)19
These landlords20 don't maintain their properties, and we21 all know this. This is, I think, where22 the problem is -- we should be going at23 right now. They don't follow the local24 laws or they don't care about the25 203 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 well-being of anybody. They fly below2 the radar and are proud of it. Before3 they were saying close to 75 percent of4 these rentals are unlicensed, let alone5 owner-occupancies are exempt and6 everything else that's exempt. We're not7 going to go there right now, but there's8 a large number there.9 I personally had a tenant10 accuse me of having a house contaminated11 with lead, because her great-grandchild12 was diagnosed with it. The child didn't13 live there. She wasn't on the lease, but14 had the house tested anyway because she15 said it was free. And then when I16 questioned her about this issue, she17 would get very defensive and told me --18 her words were, I know how this is done,19 I know how it works, and I'm going to20 seek damages.21 Now, after this went into --22 the instant I was informed of this and I23 jumped right on this with the list of24 contractors. I did not hesitant, no. I25 204 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 wanted to get this taken care of. The2 only thing that was wrong was some3 chipped painted on the old radiators that4 had been painted over and two pieces of5 wall and some cornice on the outside.6 That was it. It cost me $2,500 to have7 that taken care of. And as a licensed8 contractor, I was not allowed to paint.9 I am a licensed contractor in10 Philadelphia, but I was not allowed to11 touch that. The contractor only -- he12 only painted over it.13 And another thing, I seriously14 think the tenant then proceeded not to15 pay the rent from that day and would not16 even let the contractor in the door to do17 the work. I had to get the institution18 that she called to do the inspection to19 come down on her and tell her, No, you20 have to let these people in here to do21 the work. This took another two weeks22 between phone calls and, Well, we can't23 get a hold of her, she won't pick up the24 phone, and nobody would answer the door.25 205 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 In the meantime, she's not paying rent.2 So then after I had this house3 remediated, what did she do? She leaves.4 If this house was taken care of, why did5 she leave then? I think it was just6 because she had to pay -- we jumped on7 this and it was taken care of within, I8 think, 30 days from beginning to end.9 And then also with most of the10 products today being manufactured in11 countries that still use lead or other12 harmful or banned resources to make toys,13 food, other household items, how are we14 to keep a clean property from being15 infiltrated by these outside sources?16 Construction from demo sites, common17 everywhere, spew dust into the area.18 Even the ground -- again, even the ground19 is contaminated with the lead and20 everything. I won't go there anymore.21 And, again, why is the burden22 being pursued on just us legal landlords?23 If anybody is going -- if you -- I think24 it's a great bill. I've had lead25 206 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 poisoning myself from work. I know what2 it does to people and I know what it did3 to me, and I knew what I had to do to4 protect my children. On the job I was5 on, I would literally strip down outside,6 put the clothes in the bag and,7 thankfully, my mother let me clean them8 in her washer. The stuff never entered9 my house, because I had a two- and a10 four-year-old at the time. I was11 conscious about this and I took this into12 consideration and I did what I had to.13 And cleaning of the house, how14 am I supposed to -- if the person doesn't15 clean the house of this dust that's16 coming in there, how am I supposed to17 regulate this? It shouldn't be on me for18 the hygiene of the person.19 (Applause.)20
I'm just about done.23 I'm at the very bottom here. I just24 wanted to make sure I didn't forget25 207 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 anything here.2 Besides the cost and3 everything, yes, this will impact. I4 don't make a lot of money on this. I5 make a very little bit, and like they6 said, the thousand dollars of rental,7 it's going to hurt, and that is basically8 probably all the profit that I make a9 year on something like that, just because10 of mortgages and -- the bank owns the11 property right now. I just maintain it.12 That's all it is.13 (Applause. )14
So in closing, this15 is what I'd like to say, is, look at this16 bill again. I think it's good. I think17 we should be addressing this. We have to18 look out for our children. It is our19 future. I want them to be looking back20 at us and saying, I'm glad they rewrote21 that to look at everything, not to just22 pointing the finger at the stereotypical23 greedy landlords that are sucking the24 money out of everybody. It's not us.25 208 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 Like they said, it's everywhere, whether2 it's in this building, in the ceilings3 where I see the chipping paint or in the4 schools that everybody -- you know it's5 out there. Go against all the culprits,6 just not singling out one person. The7 responsibility has to be spread all8 around. Please amend this bill to where9 you're just not landing all the blame on10 us.11 Thank you for hearing me.12
Good afternoon or16 I should say good evening. Stanley17 Daniel is my name. I'm a real estate18 investor. I'm a licensed realtor. I'm a19 landlord. I'm a property manager. I'm a20 contractor. I'm a small businessperson.21 I have 21 rentals in the City, and my22 average rent is probably about 540, 550 a23 month. So there's not an awful lot of24 money there.25 209 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 There isn't a person in this2 room on either side of this discussion3 that wants one child to get sick or one4 child to get contaminated with lead. I5 oppose the bill because the bill is not6 going to accomplish its objective, number7 one, and, number two, I'm tired of the8 City of Philadelphia dumping on the9 landlords.10 (Applause.)11
I have a whole12 bunch of things prepared here that some13 of it's repeat, but I'm going to say14 something that no one has said. You're15 going to kill the real estate market in16 Philadelphia. Investors are not going to17 want to invest here.18 Do you know that today in19 today's economy 20 percent of all the20 properties sold in this country are21 bought by me and the people here,22 investors, entrepreneurs, people who want23 to take a risk and go out and work, and24 you're making Philadelphia not a very25 210 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 pleasant place to do business.2 Now, I just finished a rehab.3 I spent $60,000, and I created more jobs4 in that one rehab than you guys did in5 the entire year.6 (Applause and booing.)7
I'm going to8 change that statement. I made -- I9 provided more jobs than you guys have in10 the last five years.11 I bought the property -- I'll12 stand if I want, thank you.13 I bought the property. I paid14 a gal a commission who worked at Century15 21. I paid a mortgage guy a commission16 on the mortgage I got. The mortgage17 company wanted a termite certification.18 I paid an exterminator for that. I paid19 an appraiser for the appraisal. I sat20 down at the settlement table and I paid21 you guys transfer tax, which, correct me22 if I'm wrong, is the second highest in23 the country. I paid those people because24 I had the initiative to go and take a25 211 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 property that was so far in arrears in2 taxes, I don't want to embarrass you, but3 you should be ashamed yourself. I paid4 the delinquent water bill. I paid the5 delinquent sewage bills. I paid the6 delinquent gas bill, all to City7 agencies. I paid these people. I8 rehabbed -- I went to L&I and I paid L&I.9 I hired an electrician. I hired a10 plumber. I bought all kinds of things.11 I bought doors, windows, paint, et12 cetera, et cetera, et cetera. You get13 the idea? There's a convenience store in14 the next corner. My guys went in there15 and bought smokes, lunches, lottery16 tickets, spent $50 to $70 a day. The guy17 thought he died and went to heaven, he18 was so happy. Every time I went in19 there, the guy gave me a free Diet Pepsi20 and wanted to give me a hug and a kiss.21 Now, if his wife wanted to do it, it22 would have been a different story.23 I went out there and I took a24 property that was blighted. I spent25 212 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 $60,000, and I created profit, I created2 revenue to the City. Leave me alone.3 Leave us alone. Let us do our thing and4 the City will be prosperous.5 (Applause.)6
The way City7 Council operates, we're going to be8 standing next to Harrisburg bankrupt.9 I have good credit. I'm a10 licensed realtor in Pennsylvania and New11 Jersey. I can do it in any place. Why12 should I do it in Philadelphia? Instead13 of staying awake wondering how you can14 stick your hand in my pocket, why don't15 you wonder what you can do that I'm going16 to rehab another house here.17 I'll have to be honest with18 you, I just finished a rehab in19 Langhorne, Middletown Township. I went20 to L&I. I never did any business in21 Bucks County before. I went to L&I. I22 went to L&I the same way I went to L&I23 here when I did the other house. Went24 first thing in the morning, I had a Daily25 213 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 News under my arm and I packed my lunch2 and my dinner. Lo and behold, I was out3 of there in ten minutes. And they were4 even polite. And, yes, on Highland5 Avenue, one block from the house, there6 was a convenience store. He got an extra7 $50, $70, and his wife did give me a hug8 and a kiss. And I bought an awful lot of9 stuff at Lowe's and Home Depot in10 Neshaminy Mall. You guys didn't get a11 cent on the sales tax on that.12 Why should anybody do business13 in Philadelphia if you're making it an14 unfriendly place to do business?15 (Applause.)16
Listen, we18 get the picture. Would you please19 summarize your testimony.20
The problem with21 this bill is, it's not protecting the22 children that need protection.23 Seventy-five percent of the rentals in24 the City, 200,000 households, are not25 214 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 licensed. That's where the problem is.2 Okay?3 I also have grandchildren. I4 have twin granddaughters who will be six5 April 1st and a grandson who will be five6 December 8th, next week. They live in7 owner-occupied properties. Why do you8 choose to exclude protecting my9 grandchildren?10 This law --11 (Applause.)12
Your intentions13 are good, okay, but you're trying to head14 north and you're going south.15 Thank you very much.16 (Applause.)17
Thank you18 all very much.19 The next panel will be Elliot20 Holtz, Larry Lunsk, Debra Kless, Boris21 Zacharczuk, Michael John and Henry22 Hauptfuhrer.23 (Witnesses approached witness24 table.)25 215 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1
Of the2 people in this room, how many more, if3 you raise your hands, who are prepared to4 testify?5 (Audience members raising6 hands.)7
Okay.8 Thank you very much.9 Would you please identify10 yourself and begin your testimony.11
Yes. My name is12 Elliot Holtz. Good afternoon or evening,13 Chairwoman Tasco and City Councilmembers.14 I'd also like to just express thank you.15 I'm a little disappointed to only see16 three of you here, but appreciate that17 you're committed to this.18
It doesn't19 mean that they're not here. A number of20 these Committee members sat all morning21 in another hearing. So we have resources22 in our office that we listen to the23 testimony in the office. So it's not24 that they don't hear you. They hear you.25 216 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1
I also will be a4 little choppy because so much has been5 said that I'll try not to repeat, but let6 me going quickly.7 First, I'm a parent with three8 children, one of whom has severe learning9 disabilities that may very well have been10 caused by lead poisoning, and I11 understand the tremendous concern and12 problem that development issues bring to13 a family, both emotional and financial14 and it can be devastating, and there is15 no one in this room or has been here that16 cares more about the kids than the people17 here.18 I'd also like to say that I see19 properties every day of landlords who are20 not in this room, because they wouldn't21 dare show their face to the City Council,22 because they're unlicensed and they don't23 follow the existing laws that would do so24 much more to protect our children than25 217 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 what this will do to roughly 122 percent -- and maybe the numbers are3 wrong, but even if you get down in4 somewhere there, it's 12 percent.5 I also am on several6 independent school boards and see the7 impact particularly from a learning8 disabled school that I serve on and see.9 So I understand firsthand.10 I'm also here as a small11 businessowner, and I'm a private real12 estate investor. I'm trying to make this13 a business after losing my job. I have14 properties in Philadelphia where it's15 becoming increasingly difficult and16 expensive to maintain a business. I'm a17 capitalist and I'm proud of it, and each18 day I make decisions on what I do with my19 money.20 In the last weeks, I've walked21 away from several properties where I have22 agreements of sale. And I'm a great23 landlord. My tenants love me. My24 properties are beautiful, considering25 218 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 where they are. It's the best thing in2 the neighborhood. And I have walked away3 on two agreements of sale because I feel4 that I cannot continue to make5 investments in our great city.6 (Applause.)7
I also think the8 last thing that Philadelphia needs is9 further deterioration of our business10 climate and further loss of investment11 from people like me.12 I can't support the way -- the13 bill the way it exists. I think the idea14 of protecting children is great and15 obviously, as you've acknowledged, it16 needs some work. We're an old city.17 Everybody has said that. But if we18 looked at enforcing the laws that already19 exist, I think we would take care of 9820 percent of the problems that we're21 addressing. Make people maintain their22 houses. L&I has never -- and I'm not23 asking -- this is not an invitation. L&I24 has never come to one of my properties,25 219 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 except for one that had an old violation2 because I couldn't get the new3 certificate. I don't see what I'm paying4 for. I mean, I'm burdened with -- and I5 won't go through the list that other6 people have done, but I think if you give7 the proper allocation, the resources to8 enforcing the laws that exist, we9 wouldn't be sitting here today.10 (Applause.)11
I'm going to skip a14 lot of the issues, but I don't think15 anybody here can afford to gloss over the16 idea that this is extremely punitive17 against a few of us. And if we're18 landlords renting in a good way,19 licensed, why aren't our neighbors? Why20 aren't the schools? Why aren't the21 churches? Why aren't the rec centers?22 Why isn't this building subject to the23 same laws that I'm being punitively24 enforced on? And, again, the25 220 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 six-year-old issue, I've had a child with2 these issues. I know what it looks like,3 and I've done it myself to get cleaned4 up. Why are we going after everybody?5 It's like hitting a fly with a machine6 gun. We need to target the problem.7 Also, this issue of hearing 5608 housing units in the City, 275 rental9 units but only 70-something thousand10 licensed. I don't know if I can ask a11 question. Is that true? Is it true that12 of 275 rentals, that we only have 70,00013 licensed?14
We didn't15 make that statement. You have to ask the16 person who made the statement.17
And I won't take18 the time to do that.19 Also, the abandoned properties,20 they're in my neighborhood, they're in21 other neighborhoods. They are a huge22 cause of problems not only for lead, but23 I see that happening as they crumble and24 the paint is going all over the place,25 221 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 but it's a huge problem for blight. I2 actually think -- and I will skip to --3 I'm going to leave a lot of things out4 here.5 I actually -- I think a lot of6 things, but I'm going to skip them, so7 let me jump to the things that I think8 matter.9 Clearly, there's a problem that10 needs to be addressed. If we looked at11 the cost of the inspecting the way it's12 designed, to use an EPA-certified person13 multiple times, nobody is getting by14 once, and I've done it in my own home.15 It doesn't happen. It's not 375. It16 might be two or three times. Fifteen17 hundred dollars, twelve hundred, whatever18 it is, breaks my economic ability to19 continue investing in the City. Just no20 question about it.21 Also, if you look at the cost22 of doing that, have a lead test done,23 have the landlord responsible, have the24 landlord responsible for reporting the25 222 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 results, but the money that we're2 spending on testing could go to3 remediation, which is much more important4 than creating a bigger industry of people5 testing. We need more remediation.6 I actually think this will7 raise the rents unnecessarily. I will8 have to raise the rents to my tenants. I9 think it's going to hurt the tax base of10 the City. I think it's going to depress11 home sales and encourage foreclosures. I12 can bring you a list of properties that13 I've purchased that are worth less than14 the cost of what this bill will make15 people do. It's going to encourage16 abandonment of damaged properties,17 further devastating blight in the worst18 neighborhoods, and it clearly will scare19 small investors away.20 I also think that if you look21 at the low-income housing in22 Philadelphia, it's something like 7823 percent. They can't afford the rent24 increase, and it will clearly push them25 223 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 to the unlicensed units that I compete2 with every day, which charge less rent3 than I do for a worse product. But4 people won't be able to afford the higher5 rents required because we're being6 penalized.7 It's a collective problem. It8 was caused for a hundred years of9 industry, the gas that was used, the10 paint that was used, and it's putting the11 burden on very small businesses like12 myself and other investors here.13 (Applause.)14
People need15 personal responsibility. When I found16 that my home was lead infested, I did17 everything I could, and I keep it clean.18 My family makes fun of me because I walk19 around sometimes with baby wipes.20 They're teenagers now. But my tenants21 don't do that. There is no reason that22 we can't educate. The EPA brochures, I23 can't even read them. I know my tenants24 can't. Why hasn't the City done25 224 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 something on public education with a2 one-page pictorial description - clean3 your house. It's not only lead, it's4 also infestation with rodents and others.5 So I see my time is up. I've6 made my point. I appreciate your work,7 and I know that you will work to do a8 better bill than this.9 Thank you.10
Next.14 Thank you very much for taking time to15 come down to testify and staying all16 afternoon.17 Next.18
Good afternoon. My19 name is Larry Lunsk. L-U-N-S-K is the20 last name. I'm an investor. I have 2521 units in West Philly, and I've been doing22 this for 35 years. I rehabbed seven23 buildings, and a number of these24 buildings were boarded up buildings when25 225 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 I bought them several years ago.2 Now, I also worked for a state3 environmental protection agency for many4 years and we were involved with clean-up5 projects, and what happened back in the6 1980's is, banks -- as people all the7 sudden started calling our office,8 saying, We can't sell our property unless9 we get a letter from the state agency10 that says the property is clean because11 the bank will not lend money, and that12 started a whole program where we got13 involved with all these different14 clean-up projects. And most of the15 problem was lead-contaminated soil, which16 is everywhere, and people could not clean17 up their properties and numerous18 companies just went under. These were19 little companies, mom-and-pop companies,20 that just couldn't compete, and they just21 went under and just disappeared.22 Now, what scares the living23 hell out of me about this stuff is, what24 happens when these different laws get25 226 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 passed and banks do whatever they want to2 do and then you want to sell your3 property and the bank says, Well, we're4 not going to give the new person a5 mortgage unless it's certified to be lead6 free? And then you're going to get7 involved with a huge mess with banks and8 lending institutions. So what's going to9 happen is, it's going to just create more10 and more of a crisis as time goes on. So11 there's going to be a tremendous problem12 here when you try to sell a property13 where you have to get a certification.14 The whole certification process15 is a mess to begin with, because if you16 have 61,000 units and let's say 5017 percent of them turn over every year,18 you're talking about 30,000 inspections,19 not once but per year. Now, to get these20 inspections done, you have to have21 certification firms. The certification22 firms, there's very few of them around.23 I went to a meeting the other night, I24 was told there's 17 firms in this region25 227 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 that do this work, and out of the 17,2 maybe two of them have the proper3 approvals. So how this is going to be4 done is a mystery to me. I have no idea5 how this is going to even take place.6 Then once they come in to do an7 inspection, then of course there's going8 to be a problem, and then there's a9 tremendous liability involved. Like what10 happens they do an inspection, they say,11 It's okay, and then someone moves in with12 a child and they get lead poisoning and13 then there will be a lawsuit?14 Most of these firms have to be15 out of their minds to certify something16 where there's so many variables in the17 system to begin with with lead dust18 coming in from everywhere in creation.19 (Applause.)20
So what that does,21 that kills that argument right away. You22 can't get -- it's going to be hard to get23 certified. Then once someone certifies,24 then they're open to liability, and then25 228 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 you get a situation with lending2 institutions who won't lend money to3 people to buy your buildings.4 Now, I've been in this business5 35 years. I'm 64 years old, and I want a6 decent return on my investment. So I7 want to sell my stuff and I want to make8 sure someone can buy it to continue the9 business cycle going on.10 The other issue I have here is,11 Philadelphia was a viable place when I12 was a kid growing up in the 1950's.13 There was businesses in every14 neighborhood. Every neighborhood was15 viable. The school system was good. But16 what happened through City government17 incompetence, business was driven out of18 the City, the under class moved in, the19 middle class moved out. The middle class20 is basically gone. Every neighborhood I21 lived in with my mother is a disaster22 zone. Some places look like Germany23 after World War II. That's how bad it24 is.25 229 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 So what I'm saying is is that2 if you want to improve things here, there3 are thousands and thousands of abandoned4 buildings. Make it easy, get out of the5 way, government, and make it easy for6 people like people in this room to invest7 money in buildings. They could be given8 away. People could bring it up to code.9 The government doesn't need to be10 involved.11 And the other thing is, I'm12 ashamed of the fact that you people call13 yourself democrats. Democrats are for14 the little person, not the big people.15 And that is really a shame. I don't know16 how you can even sit there and call17 yourselves democrats.18 That's all I have to say.19 Thank you very much.20 (Applause.)21
Well, we22 appreciate the fact that you came in and23 testified, and we want to say that we,24 the democrats, gave you an open forum to25 230 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 insult us. Thank you.2 Go ahead.3
Good evening.4 My name is Boris Zacharczuk. I am an5 immigrant long time ago to City of6 Philadelphia and I graduated from Drexel7 University and I've also taught at Drexel8 University, and I wanted to supplement my9 income by buying property in City of10 Philadelphia. That was about 35 to 4011 years ago. I'm 77, almost 78 years now.12 I'm still running the property trying to13 rent it and trying to supplement my14 income, because my Social Security is15 insufficient. And these increase in16 taxes and expenses in running the17 apartment in the City of Philadelphia18 puts a tremendous squeeze on me and I19 have no rights to supplement my income.20 And unfortunately this new law that is21 being proposed is going to increase the22 expenses to such a level that I may have23 to sell the property if it's -- there is24 a buyer or just abandon it.25 231 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 The expenses are phenomenal2 right now of the past several years.3 Tenants move in. I have a number of4 efficiencies and one-bedroom units. Very5 seldom I have a child in the unit,6 because it's only single or two people in7 a unit. Yet, I will have to pay 500 or8 600 or more dollars to inspect or9 reinspect the unit every time somebody10 moves out. And the efficiencies, they11 don't live there very long. They're12 about four months, six months, they move13 out. They go on to some place. So I14 would have to reinspect it every time.15 And this would be an adult. No child is16 in the unit. So I think if there is no17 child moving in or living there, I don't18 think it has to be reinspected.19 For about 35 or 40 years, I've20 always maintained the properties in good21 position. Every time somebody moved out,22 the property continuously had to be23 repainted and fixed up. I don't run a24 slum area, and I'm trying to take care of25 232 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 the individuals to the best I can, those2 renters, but unfortunately some of them3 renters are not very nice and very4 difficult to screen them, and then you5 wind up with a tenant that comes in, stop6 paying rent, either that or in this7 economic situation, he was working and8 once he got the apartment, all the sudden9 two or three relatives of his move in in10 this efficiency apartment, overcrowding11 it, so I have to terminate their lease12 and evict them. The eviction process13 takes at least two months or maybe three14 months. The cost -- and I do that all15 myself at City of Philadelphia in court,16 and it costs me close to $400 with all17 the fees just to get to the point where I18 can get a locksmith to change the lock19 and evict them. After eviction, they20 come in, break in, take the stuff out,21 and now I have a major renovation22 necessary for the apartment.23 When I started in this24 business, it wasn't that bad. It wasn't25 233 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 bad at all. The costs are not -- people2 are more reasonable. Right now it is3 extremely, extremely expensive and4 cost -- unreasonable to run the5 apartments. So putting another bill,6 another bill in front of me for7 inspection every time I have to rent it8 over and above all the things that I have9 to go through, it is absolutely10 impossible to run this thing.11 I've tried to -- Ms. Tasco,12 we've met quite some times ago under much13 more cordial conditions.14 Unfortunately --15
You were at18 Ukrainian Center at one time. I was19 President there. You were an invited20 guest. Unfortunately, we are in opposite21 end of the table. Very sad that I have22 to come up and testify at this.23 Please, I'll be brief. I'm not24 a big talker, and I just appreciate that25 234 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 you listen to me and consider the2 situation that I had. I tried to do my3 best, but unfortunately it's getting to4 be very bad.5 Thank you.6
Well,7 thank you so much for coming down. Thank8 you for staying, and we appreciate your9 testimony.10 (Applause.)11
Thank you for14 letting me testify today. My name is15 Henry Hauptfuhrer.16 There's been a lot of heat17 today, and I hope there's been some light18 as well as far as ideas on this19 legislation. I think everybody takes it20 seriously as far as kids and lead paint21 poisoning. My background is a chemist.22 I'm very familiar with hazardous23 materials. And matter of fact, another24 trivia point is my great-grandfather25 235 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 served on City Council and probably sat2 where you sit today, and I certainly feel3 sympathy for the difficult decisions you4 need to make.5 I'm also a landlord, and my6 apartments are lead safe. And I know7 that because they're properly maintained.8 I have the proper inspections, licenses9 and rental suitability permits, et10 cetera. I follow the rules, and I11 provide the proper lead paint paperwork12 for each of my leases when I present them13 to the tenants.14 It's a no-brainer to provide a15 lead-safe property if property owners16 follow the existing regulation.17 When I bought the properties18 I've had in Center City Philadelphia --19 and I've renovated three of them -- none20 of them were licensed and all of them had21 violations. All my buildings are up to22 code, and I'm proud of them, and I'd be23 happy to take you through them.24 Many of us in this room grew up25 236 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 in houses with lead paint and we have not2 suffered any ill effects. Most states3 today -- most children today are safe in4 these houses, again as long as they're5 properly maintained and cleaned.6 But we do have some serious7 issues with kids that are getting8 poisoned, so we need to deal with that,9 and I don't deny that problem, but the10 bill as it's drafted is deeply flawed.11 And one problem I have in particular is12 the required testing of apartments or13 single-family houses each time that it's14 rented, regardless of whether or not a15 child is going to live there and16 regardless of the condition of the17 building.18 As we've discussed, lead19 testing is not cheap and it can cost20 anywhere from $300 to $700. So with this21 legislation, for a new renter I will need22 to collect not only my first month rent,23 my last month rent and a security24 deposit, but I also need to start25 237 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 collecting $300 to $700 for a lead test,2 and that's if I'm successful.3 Now, let's do the math. I have4 eight apartments, and none of my renters5 happen to have children, for whatever6 reason. But assuming a rental unit turns7 over between every one and two years, I8 would need to collect anywhere from9 $2,400 to $5,600 every year or two in10 order to protect children that do not11 exist in these buildings.12 I guarantee you --13 (Applause.)14
I guarantee15 you that my renters and all renters16 without children -- with or without17 children throughout the City are going to18 be angry about this, because this19 expenditure is simply throwing money down20 a rat hole. Pardon the terminology. But21 it does not help any children whatsoever22 when you're testing a facility that does23 not have children.24 So as I sit here today, I'm a25 238 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 landlord and I am no doubt speaking not2 only for myself but also for the tenants3 that live in my building. They're4 saying, Okay, I need to pay what?5 Between three and seven6 hundred.7 And what's that for?8 Well, that's to test for your9 apartment or your house in order to10 protect the children that are there.11 And they're going to say, Well,12 there's no children here.13 I'm going to say, Well, it's14 there to protect the children that are15 there.16 And so it doesn't make any17 sense that way. So we're putting a lot18 money, literally millions of dollars19 worth of unneeded testing, into something20 that doesn't accomplish anything. I'd be21 much happier to see -- multiply this many22 times over. You're talking about23 millions of dollars each year that could24 be spent. I'd be happy to have a portion25 239 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 of that go into some sort of a fund and2 then provide the proper testing and the3 proper education and the proper4 remediation, particularly for families5 that need it and that can't afford it.6 (Applause.)7
So I think we8 really need to be aware that the way it's9 currently legislated, we're throwing a10 lot of money into a big hole over here11 where there's no kids. The kids are over12 here and there's the problem. So let's13 take a little bit of that if we need to14 and bring it over and help the kids.15 So we have basically, as we16 said prior, we have over 80 percent of17 the rental properties have huge18 low-income tenant issues, and if you19 start throwing these on there, you're20 going to tip the balance. So let's keep21 aware of this.22 So this hammer -- this bill is23 really a sledgehammer and not a scalpel,24 and we need to be able to focus this.25 240 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 There are ways that we can use fees.2 There's ways that we can use tax3 incentives. And, you know, there's a lot4 of states that also provide a tax on5 gasoline and paint in order to really6 supercharge remediation and education and7 everything else. Let's start looking at8 those things.9 The other thing that I'm10 worried about is, this again is a11 sledgehammer of a bill, not a scalpel.12 It's not going really and addressing the13 kids. All the money that we're spending14 as a result of this bill is going into a15 hole.16 And the other thing is is that17 not only does it affect all the real18 estate issues that have been talked19 about, but it also creates a toxic stew,20 because in this legislation you throw in21 attorney fees and opportunities for free22 rent, where bad tenants can game the23 system, where landlords that have done24 the best they can and lead, for whatever25 241 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 reason, is coming from other sources or2 whatever, can be held liable. I mean,3 what am I going --4 (Applause.)5
What am I6 going to be able to do for insurance?7 Insurance bills are going to skyrocket8 when they know I'm from Philadelphia and9 I have this liability, that somebody can10 then all the sudden start suing me for --11 and I've done everything in my power to12 make a lead-safe property.13 So thank you very much for your14 time. I really wish that you strongly15 consider these pitfalls and continue to16 work, not only with the landlords and17 these fees, if we collect them, can also18 address private residences. We need to19 address that. And also we need to have20 the tenants involved, because this is21 ultimately, whatever we do here, is going22 to affect rent and it's going to affect23 some of the most at-risk members of our24 city.25 242 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 So thank you very much for your2 time.3
Thank you6 very much.7 One moment. Councilwoman Brown8 would like to comment. We thank you for9 your thoughtful testimony.10
We do11 thank you for your thoughtful testimony12 and those and many other witnesses that13 have come to the table. There is an14 enormous amount of misinformation, bad15 information, inaccurate information and16 not current information in this room as17 we speak.18 Many may have to leave. At the19 end of the hearing, we will go into a20 public meeting, and in that public21 meeting there will be a number of22 amendments, also known as adjustments,23 also known as changes to this bill, that24 your representative organizations have25 243 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 brought to our attention. We have heard2 many of the very legitimate concerns3 raised. We are listening to you.4 But two things. One, you need5 to know that your first panel that6 represents your world have spoken to7 these concerns well already.8 And, two, we've heard them.9 And, three, there are going to10 be a number of changes that you'll be11 very pleased with because of that.12 Lastly, this bill is not about13 remediation. That's where we started.14 We're now at the lowest possible15 standard, which is called dust wipes. So16 this notion of $400, $500, $600, in the17 vernacular of the street, kill that18 noise. We're looking at the minimum19 standard and whatever that cost is of20 dust wipes that come with that minimum21 standard.22 So I need to share that now,23 because many have to leave and you will24 not have the benefit of that information25 244 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1 at the end of the hearing.2 Thank you very much.3
Now, we4 will have to take a ten-minute break5 because the stenographer has been here6 all afternoon, and there are laws7 governing her performance. It's 5:18.8 We'll be back at 5:30.9 (Short recess.)10
The11 meeting is called to order.12 The next panel will be Brian13 Quinn, Benjamin Shinabum, Ross Stuart,14 Jane Broderson, Carolyn Boxmeyer, Earl15 Moore, Bill Schwartz and John Gardner.16 If you're here, please come forward, and17 we're going to hold you to two minutes.18 I have 30 people waiting.19 (Witnesses approached witness20 table.)21
Yes. And24 you're going to be two minutes, right?25 245 11/30/11 - PUBLIC HEALTH - BILL 100011, ETC.1
Okay.4 Don't run out of oxygen. I couldn't take5 it. You couldn't take it either.6
Everything that I7 planned on talking about, I have to leave8 out of it now because of my condition,9 but I just offered Councilwoman Brown an10 idea that I came across in very recent11 reading of research that has been going12 on.13