I'll let Francis talk about involvement level and the coordination level.
I'm trying to follow this. SEPTA has engaged into a relationship with DAP and TOP/WIN?
They are two separate 2264 3/11/03 - FY '04 OPERATING BUDGET agencies where they are responsible for training. The dollars, their funding, are separate and distinct from SEPTA. So we have a coordination effort. We coordinate. We collaborate. But TOP/WIN is responsible for its program. DAP is responsible for its program. Their funding is separate and distinct outside of SEPTA.
So I'm curious about the provisions of the partnership, of the arrangement. What is the obligation for DAP to provide you with skilled, trained individuals who then win an opportunity to be employed in the SEPTA contract.
Francis Jones, Assistant General manager at SEPTA. The funding that they receive from DOT dictates -- or in the contract that have was let through DOT there's a specific number for the period of time that the contract is in place. That that certain number of people have to go through the training program and have to graduate and come out on the end. And I think the initial number in the initial contract is something like 33. Now, we worked along with the community and the number that 2265 3/11/03 - FY '04 OPERATING BUDGET we came up with for training was approximately 100 individuals would come through a construction skills kind of training program for the life of the project. So 33 was the number that DAP applied for and got funding for through DOT. So as a result, we interviewed any number, probably somewhere around 250 people and the list was further culled by people who were no longer interested, got another job, didn't want to do the training, or whatever. And they've come up with the number that they need to begin the training. Even as training and they started the initial training, some people have dropped out of the program. So that's the number that DAP has. TOP/WIN had another number because their funding came through Philadelphia Work Force Development Corporation. Now, what our responsibility is, is to monitor them. We go to the site. We've said it -- I personally sat in on the interview classes. I sat in on some of the training at TOP/WIN. We have not observed the DAP program as of yet, but there is a relationship. In addition to that, the program manager has a person that is also monitoring to make sure 2266 3/11/03 - FY '04 OPERATING BUDGET that the numbers are constant so that we reach our goal at the end of the process.
So there is an intensified monitoring component, both internal at SEPTA and through the program manager, as well as through CCI. So it's multileveled to make sure that the training is going on.
Thank you, Madam Chair. I guess what I was not taking from the earlier responses -- and I'm not sure about the most recent one -- is I'm left with the impression -- and you'll correct me if I'm wrong -- that SEPTA is taking the posture that, well, that's either DAP's responsibility or that's TOP/WIN's responsibility and we have some kind of relationship with them, but is there an obligation or ownership of this particular issue by way of SEPTA? Because the earlier responses were, we don't know what the numbers are and we have to get that information from 2267 3/11/03 - FY '04 OPERATING BUDGET them. I mean, they're supposed to working on your project. It seems to me that it would be imperative of the agency to have that kind of information on your project. But for your project, they're not doing work. So, I mean, is there an ownership of this particular issue?
That's why I said, we'll get that information. I don't have that with me, but we can get the information.
Were their people from either of these programs on other SEPTA projects prior to the Market Street El?
We've planning for this project for some number of years. We did a small pilot project training project on the Manayunk Bridge and we had five people go through a training program through TOP/WIN. Out of that five, when the project ended, there were probably three people that went through the entire training. That's the extent of all training programs that we've had thus far at SEPTA. 2268 3/11/03 - FY '04 OPERATING BUDGET
What's your goal or expectation for how many people are going to go through the program based on the $567 million capital investment on the Market-Frankford El?
The commitment, I think, that was and programed within the capital budget was a hundred full-time equivalents over the life of the project.
A hundred people would be on the Market Elevated Project during the life of the Market Elevated project.
How many people will work on the Market Elevated Project during the life of the project? This is eight-year project?
It's going to be over 2007, so five plus, I guess, the two years so seven, eight.
I mean, it started 2269 3/11/03 - FY '04 OPERATING BUDGET '01, late '01, early '02, right?
So how man people do you expect in total will work on that project for eight years.
I'll get back in touch with you. This one, I'm really shooting from the hip, but over of the life, probably no more than 500 jobs or 500 people. One major contract has --
Only 500 people will work on the Market Street El for seven years.
Who were the four professional services contracts under the DBE participation from your fact sheet?
We can send you detail, but they would include Baker Associates, Portfolio Association, Advantage, and Contract Compliance.
And who were the three, at least on this sheet, although your testimony I think indicates four, major construction packages. What were the names of those companies?
I have to get back to some notes. But it would have been like ATC -- and these 2270 3/11/03 - FY '04 OPERATING BUDGET are abbreviations, that's why I'm hesitating, to see if I can get something without the abbreviations.
ATC Automatic Train Control, the Guide Way package, Cobbs Creek package, and the Station's Package. Those are four major construction packages for the Market Street El.
I understand that. I'm asking for the names of the companies. Your fact sheet and your testimony indicate that three or four major construction packages were part of your DBE participation to date of and a half percent. 13 I'm asking, what are the names of the companies? 14
We can give you the detail. 15 It's a complete listing to come up to the 24 and a 16 half percent. We can give you that complete listing 17 or send it over. 18
Let me go back for 19 one second to this hundred full-time equivalent. So 20 your testimony is that you expect of the 500 people 21 working on the project over the seven to eight-year 22 life, 100 of them will come through either DAP or 23 TOP/WIN is that your testimony? 24
But you said you're 2271 3/11/03 - FY '04 OPERATING BUDGET not picking those people up until the come out of the current class; is that correct?
Just that piece that started November. That would be this class that started November. For those DAP that occurred prior to November, they are eligible and might very easily and very well already be on the project.
We will double check. In the information that's been requested, they wanted a listing of all of individuals that are participating on the Market Elevated.
I have two last questions. With regard to the Market El, the issue about keeping some lane of traffic open in order to help prevent all of the businesses on Market Street from going out of business, what is SEPTA prepared to do to provide some relief to the business people up there?
Francis actually had a tour, I guess, yesterday and some additional stuff on Friday. But what I've asked my engineers to do is sort of recap for me to see was it feasible. And there are some serious safety concerns about opening 2272 3/11/03 - FY '04 OPERATING BUDGET up a lane. But Francis can also give some of the examples of what saw when we went out yesterday.
We were actually out in the 6000 block of Market Street yesterday with a reporter from the Daily News as well as our teem that's working on the project, the program manager as well as our internal people. And what we found particularly in the 6000 block of Market Street, we've always had the street opened for emergency purposes. We're required to do that according to PennDOT and to the City of Philadelphia when we had to go for our permits. But there was a commitment to make sure the street was open if anyone had to get deliveries, if there were special events, or whatever is going on, that the fence could be pulled so that someone could get through. In fact, yesterday, there was a delivery that was occurring on Market Street where the big beverage truck was parked on the street. And we looked at that as a perfect example of if the street in fact was for through traffic that would present a problem because the street would be blocked. There was a car also that was parked on the corner. So that street would have blocked for through traffic 2273 3/11/03 - FY '04 OPERATING BUDGET because of the beverage truck as well as the car on the corner. We walked that entire block to look at the possibilities of opening up a lane. And with the range in motion of the equipment and how the equipment was staged, as well as the materials that are necessary for the construction work that we're doing now, it appeared to be almost impossible in that particular location to open a street for through traffic.
I appreciate your perspective. Let me share mine. There is a current construction project going on, I believe, on -- I don't know whether it's Route 202 or some part of the expressway out near King of Prussia. I think most of us lived through and survived the reconstruction of the Schuylkill Expressway. We had at least two lanes of traffic closed. The entire bridge was closed for a while and then they opened it up once they were able to get one lane on the City Avenue bridge. If we can reconstruct the Expressway and not shut it down to traffic -- because I don't think the folks in King of Prussia would like it too much if PennDOT closed the Expressway for a couple years while they did the 2274 3/11/03 - FY '04 OPERATING BUDGET reconstruction; it might have a little impact on the couple malls out there -- it seems to me that we should be able to keep a lane of traffic open for the folks on Market Street because as beautiful as the El will be when it's done, there won't be anybody out there. And I don't necessarily believe that it's good public policy to put people out of business while we're trying to beautify their area. So somewhere between the Police Department, the Streets Department, and SEPTA -- and maybe you could actually increase your neighborhood participation goals if you picked up some of the neighborhood people, trained them properly and helped them in traffic direction, we'd be able to -- you know, I wasn't out for yesterday's little tour around, but I did have staff there. Whether it's the delivery truck or somebody else's truck, I mean, the goal is to try to keep traffic flowing and moving. And there will be deliveries from time to time. But if you put everyone out of business, you won't have to worry about moving the gate because no 23 one will get any deliveries, and then you won't have to worry about clogging up traffic. I mean, what is the goal here? I 2275 3/11/03 - FY '04 OPERATING BUDGET thought the goal was to dramatically improve the area, move from a double-bent system to a single-bent system, but not put people out of business from 57th Street to 63rd Street in the meantime. We're working at cross-purposes here, it seems to me. You know, they'll be printing T-shirts out there soon talking about they were one of the few survivors of the SEPTA El Project. It cannot be in the interest of public policy to virtually put everyone out of business over the course of a seven-year period while you're trying to improve the community. Something's got to give, and you guys -- and I'll be glad to work with you on them. I'm not just throwing it back in your lap, but a plan has to be developed to keep traffic moving on Market Street to allow these business people to stay in business. They will not survive the project. So unless you're prepared to set aside some money to just buy everybody out of their business and welcome them back in 2007 and then give them a grant to re-open their stores, I think we have to figure out a way to keep traffic, keep it safe for the people are working. Everyone 2276 3/11/03 - FY '04 OPERATING BUDGET understands this is a complicated project, but it is not impossible. Let me remind you, 34 years ago we sent two people to the moon and brought them back safely. It seems to me that we can reconstruct the El and not put everybody out of business. It can't be impossible. That's not an option.
We'll be willing to work with you, between the engineers of the City and our engineers and do some briefings.
We will coordinate tomorrow to set up a briefing session to begin the dialog.
Thank you. Ms. Moore, my last question is, is it possible to get an answer -- because we have been around and around on this -- the question about the three trolley stops for the No. 10 Trolley on Lansdowne Avenue? You have to accept one premise. I will not go away. I will not stop asking about it. I am relentless in getting answers to questions. Accept it. Give me the three stops back. And I'll leave you alone. And then we can go 2277 3/11/03 - FY '04 OPERATING BUDGET talk about the Market Street El and keeping the traffic open. This issue will never go away.
And I recognize that. I've actually delayed this one myself. Staff had given me answers. There is one huge intersection that I will tell you for that safety reasons my inclination is no. But part of our annual process, we were actually looking at service levels, et cetera, and two of the stops are being considered.
What's the intersection that's the problem? There's 58th and Lansdowne where there is a traffic signal because I had that installed; 62nd and Lansdowne where I believe there is also a traffic signal; and 63rd and Oxford.
I think it's that one, because there's one where there's a big intersection and there's no traffic signal at. This one I have held up. It's been on my desk for about three weeks and I have not processed it. But staff did give me an answer, and they also reminded me that your are relentless and I probably should have brought the package over with me today.
It would make your 2278 3/11/03 - FY '04 OPERATING BUDGET life a lot easier.
I will make it point of getting the information over to you before the end of the week.
That would be great. Thank you very much. Thank you, Madam Chair.
You're welcome. The Chair recognizes Councilman Clarke.
Thank you, Madam President. Good afternoon. Just one quick follow-up to the earlier questions because I don't understand this 18 percent issue. In your testimony you indicate that the 18 percent is by virtue of an Executive Order on the federal level?
No. The 18 percent is a goal we establish yearly to send it into the Federal Transit Administration, and that is the expected 2279 3/11/03 - FY '04 OPERATING BUDGET goal that we have Authority-wide that's construction, non-construction, small purchases, et cetera, that -- I'm going to use the word "target" --
No. No. The Executive Order is just for construction. The 6.9 percent, the 17.3 percent, separately than the percent. 11 The Executive Order is only for work hours. The 18 12 percent is a DBE percentage, and those are dollars 13 expected to be expended to disadvantaged business 14 enterprises. 15
So the Executive 16 Order speaks to person hours on a contract and not 17 necessarily for any particular trade; it's across 18 the board in terms of the trades.
So there some 18 percent reference by the federal government?
Okay, I'm sorry, 17.3 percent. 2280 3/11/03 - FY '04 OPERATING BUDGET
As established by the federal guidelines, i.e., the Executive Order?
How is that determined? And you may not be able to answer this question. The reason I'm asking that, is there some flexibility? When you're talking about an Federal Executive Order, I'm assuming that any project that receives federal dollars, I'm assuming in Salt Lake, as an example, they will probably have a difficult time reaching this goal, I think.
Well, maybe not. If there are American Indians, Asian Pacific.
So they take into account across the country all of the opportunities for all the various --
I just wanted to make sure I understand that. Operations. I was asked to asked you this question by several of my staff members who have the pleasure of riding SEPTA to and from work. In the most recent snowstorm, they had some 2281 3/11/03 - FY '04 OPERATING BUDGET difficulty in getting into the bus stop. And apparently there was no strategy in place for snow removal for all of those various bus locations throughout the City of Philadelphia. We hope that we don't have to suffer that burden again of trying to remove snow, but in the event that we get another snow storm, what's the game plan for removing snow from the corners where we have bus stops?
These cut-outs, the cut-out/pull-ins for buses? Or are we talking about --
I'm assuming it's just any corner that has a sign where you catch the bus, cut-out, cut-in, bump-out. I mean, where people have to catch the bus. There was an inability to go to those locations and it appeared that there was nothing was in place. As a matter of fact, it was to some degree the problem was increased because the snow plows from the City were piling things up on the corner.
Let me make sure I understand. If you went to a bus stop, the shelter was clear, the street was clear, but you couldn't get between shelter and the street? Or are you 2282 3/11/03 - FY '04 OPERATING BUDGET talking about the cut-out.
Nothing is clear. Couldn't get to the shelter, couldn't get to the cut-out, couldn't get to the bus stop. So you either stood in the street or you stood on the porch and tried to run and catch the bus before it pulled off.
Now, snow removal for the streets -- and I assuming this bus stop is on the street.
On the street, but the stop itself where the pedestrians are, the people who would ride the business is on the sidewalk or in the shelter or in a cut-out.
I don't how Mr. Bond knows this piece of information, but we have 16,500 bus stops. If you're talking about clearing it on sidewalks, obviously you can't reach that within one day.
Well, the Mayor talked about how many miles of street he had to plow, so the fact that you have that many bus stops, I mean --
Well, it depends on where 2283 3/11/03 - FY '04 OPERATING BUDGET the bus stops are. If the bus stop is on a City street, Philadelphia is responsible for the streets.
I'm talking about the sidewalk where the people have to stand. You can't get to the street where the bus is if you can't access the sidewalk where there's a bus stop or there's a bus stop shelter or there's a cut-out. It's a simple matter of having to traverse the street, the sidewalk, then get to the stop then get to the bus. There was no accessibility.
I'm not trying to make excuses. I think your point is well taken, and we probably need to look at that. But I think Philadelphia should be proud, even though we were not perfect. The State of New Jersey close their transit system entirely. The State of Delaware closed their transit system entirely and there was no transportation provided. Now, that doesn't excuse --
I understand what you're saying. What I'm saying to you is, it was an unusual snow. We very seldom in the last four years 2284 3/11/03 - FY '04 OPERATING BUDGET have had that much snow.
It's not the first time it's happened. I don't see any strategy. We've had several snows this particular year, and my understanding is that on each one of those occasions, there was no strategic plan in place or it appeared not to be where snow was cleared from those locations. I understand the 20-inch thing. It was abnormal.
There is a plan in place. Our top priority becomes for the system itself, the platforms, et cetera. For the City of Philadelphia where we have bus stops, many of those bus stops are on City streets and that part becomes clearing.
I'm assuming all of the streets are City streets. I'm talking about the sidewalk.
That's what I'm getting to. The shelters are owned by the City of Philadelphia as well. Now, the what SEPTA did on Tuesday or Wednesday, one of those days, we actually throughout the City of Philadelphia, dug paths between the 2285 3/11/03 - FY '04 OPERATING BUDGET shelter and the street so that individuals could get that. But, again, with 16,000, we concentrated down Market Street, Chestnut Street, Walnut initially. And then we sort of span out. So, yes, there is a strategy, but it did point out to us that if there's ownership of the shelter and ownership of the street, there was still some question about who owned the walkway between the street and the shelter. So we did it this year, but it also pointed out to us --
So it sounds like to me that the City of Philadelphia because they own the shelter and the street that they need to sit down with you to work out a plan on making sure that there's access to the shelter and subsequently the bus.
Right. This year we did it, but it did dawn on us that there was a gap in the plans that we had.
It's interesting. 2286 3/11/03 - FY '04 OPERATING BUDGET You really have to be a scientist to figure out on some days who does what. You know, inches from 4 the track. I called to report a pot hole the other 5 day, it was like, honestly, making a reservation for 6 a cruise. How far is the pot hole? It's so 7 confusing that I would hope that some day SEPTA and 8 the Streets Department and PennDOT would sit down 9 and try to work out something that really makes 10 sense. 11 I was driving up -- what motivated this 12 point of order, I was driving around 30th Street to 13 head out to West Philadelphia the other day, and 14 there's a gentleman living in one of the shelters. 15 I mean, he had everything in there but a big screen 16 television. Now, I don't know whose responsibility 17 it is to make sure that we don't have people setting 18 up housing in your stops, but I would hope that your drivers, your supervisors on street have a process, and we're talking about process here, of reporting -- the reason I'm bringing it up, I mentioned this to someone and they said, "Oh, yeah, he's been there all winter." So I would hope that a supervisor or a driver that sees someone setting up shop in one of 2287 3/11/03 - FY '04 OPERATING BUDGET these shelters -- and again, that is very confusing. You really need sit down and talk about all these nuisance things and whose responsible to fix it. Explain to me. The trolley used to 6 run for years in Germantown. I think the only thing 7 today is sometimes a little trolley in Chestnut 8 Hills. Why do we still have tracks? 9
We can't get a general 10 consensus whether or not to have trolley service or 11 discontinuance of trolley service so, therefore, the 12 tracks are still there. 13
Councilman, that's a 14 little beyond the scope of the question. 15
I'll come back for 16 that. I was just trying my strategy to see if it 17 worked. It, obviously, did not. I was caught. 18
It's real 19 interesting way of jumping ahead of your turn, 20 Councilman. 21
I'll come back to that. 2288 3/11/03 - FY '04 OPERATING BUDGET
23rd and Race, what was the route, Ms. Jones? I can't remember. The bus route down there?
Okay. It's either 121 or the 44. But we know what you're talking about.
There was an issue about a line being taken off service during particular hours. That particular line service, a number of locations, in particular the Riverside Presbyterian Homes where we have more than senior citizen or disabled residents. At the time, we thought we made a case based on the residents in our investigation and our analysis that we should maintain that route. We were told that it would be more productive, more cost effective for the route to be shifted to 30th Street during those particular hours. I'm assuming that there was and analysis done since that's what was promised at that 2289 3/11/03 - FY '04 OPERATING BUDGET particular time. I want to thank SEPTA for providing a van, although I must tell you that the van has now cost Riverside more than $60,000 in repairs, so that in itself has not been a very cost-effective gift. We're currently seeking an opportunity to get some support there. What was the analysis done on the shifting of the route to 30th Street as opposed to continuing the 23rd and Race stop?
I will tell you that the boardings and one of the gauges that we wanted to look at the number of boardings and de-boardings that occurred at 30th Street, and those numbers have increased. We can send you the details.
We would have looked at boardings just recently. We just pulled out some recent information as an update.
There was a change in the route at a particular time. We were told at that time there was going to be an analysis done 2290 3/11/03 - FY '04 OPERATING BUDGET because we didn't believe that the information was provided by SEPTA was accurate.
So the initial analysis? I thought you were talking about the number boardings analysis afterwards.
I'm talking about during the period of time for the last two years. It was argument made by SEPTA that if they shifted the route it would be more productive and cost effective in terms of ridership at 30th Street as opposed to 23rd Street. And I'm asking has that analysis been done?
The answer is yes. And there are more boardings at 30th Street than there were before we detoured bus.
Well, obviously if you now have a bus going there, there are more boardings. The question is are there more boardings than there would have been if you had continued to have the route on 23rd and Race. That was the argument that was made.
Well, we didn't have any boardings at 23 and Race area that compared to the boardings that we're getting at 30th Street. I'm 2291 3/11/03 - FY '04 OPERATING BUDGET not sure whether I'm answering the question.
Ms. Jones, can you respond to that, please? You're a little more involved.
We have done an analysis, but we don't have the information with us right now. I know initially there were the meetings that we had and the hearing we had at SEPTA as well as the hearing that we had at 23rd and Race where the seniors were quite upset and expressed their concerns about not having the service there. We'll get those numbers to you.
I want to see the information on a timeline when the route was redirected to 30th Street, the increase in ridership as you sit here today during that timeline versus the ridership at 23rd and Race.
You're welcome. 2292 3/11/03 - FY '04 OPERATING BUDGET At the request of the witnesses, we're going to take a five-minute recess. (Brief recess.)
Good afternoon. I think I was next to ask some questions. I'd like to ask you a question about the percent. I guess you want to know what's the 9 issue around 18 percent. Is there any rule or 10 regulation that would prevent you from exceeding 18 11 percent? 12
You mean from the actual? 13 Can actual payments to DBEs be in excess of 18 14 percent? 15
So I guess the question becomes, how did you arrive at 18 percent?
There is a formula and process that we have to follow. When we send the 18 percent -- the report that we send into the federal government, when we send that over, we do a narrative to talk about the process that we undertake to develop the 18 percent. 2293 3/11/03 - FY '04 OPERATING BUDGET
No, no. Two separate and 5 distinct processes: 18 percent businesses; 17 6 percent people. So they are not the same. Separate 7 and distinct. 8
My point of 10 information is, are you saying that the federal 11 government limits the expenditures for minorities to 12 18 percent? 13
No. That's what I said, it 14 is not a ceiling. We can exceed the 18 percent. 15
In actual payments. We can't have a goal higher than 18 that we can't support, but we can indeed through payments, et cetera, exceed the 18 percent.
Why does the law prevent you from having a higher goal? 2294 3/11/03 - FY '04 OPERATING BUDGET
There is a process that we have to follow. It is based on the vendors we have, the certified DBEs that we have.
Isn't that a requirement of at least percent. I just can't 7 believe that the federal government would say you're 8 only entitled to spend 18 percent for minorities and 9 disadvantaged people and that anything above that 10 improper. 11
That's not what I'm saying. 12 We can in actual pay in excess. If we have a 13 contractor and that contractor comes in and he has a 14 miraculous 40 percent DBE, we can have a higher goal 15 than 18 percent in reality, in actual payments. The 16 goal we establish at the beginning of the year is 17 based on a federal rule and process. So that is a 18 goal of 18 percent. But at any point in time if we all wonderful and everything works out, the attained goal can be in excess of 18 percent.
18 percent is a goal of whatever you're trying to strive for set by the government, says you can't have less than that. 2295 3/11/03 - FY '04 OPERATING BUDGET They didn't say you couldn't have more than that.
They set a formula so that you will meet that minimal goal, right?
What is you effort to increase that goal? Do you sit there and say, "Well, it's percent today, we've got to do 18 10 percent"? 11 Why can't you say, "I think we want 20 12 percent or 30 percent"? 13
Again, we have to do -- the 14 over all goal of 18 percent is set -- 15
You're going to 16 meet 18 percent. That's the law. The commitment is 17 to get to more than 18 percent. We're trying to 18 increase more people in Philadelphia doing business with our agencies. What is the commitment of the agency to increase minority participation? That's the bottom line. Not just to meet the 18 percent, but where is the commitment to be more inclusive of the diverse community that exist in this City?
Part of what's built into that 18 percent, each contract is reviewed and it's 2296 3/11/03 - FY '04 OPERATING BUDGET done on contract-by-contract basis. Some contracts we have a percent goal; some, we have an 4 percent goal, others, we have a 19 percent goal; 5 others, we have 23 percent goal. 6
Not necessarily the amount 9 of contract, but the availability of DBEs to do that 10 particular scope of work. So when it all rolls 11 together, we would love for it to be in excess of 18 percent. For those agencies or those contracts that are having difficulty meeting their individual contract goals, that's where the individuals in our DBE unit or our small business unit work with vendors to encourage them. We have an active certification process, so we try to get more DBEs certified. So there is ongoing and active participation trying to make sure we, not only meet the goal, but the goal is as much as we can do. But it is developed contract by contract.
On of your of your testimony you talk your outreach programs and contractor recessions and meetings for prime and subcontractors to talk about the various projects 2297 3/11/03 - FY '04 OPERATING BUDGET and the contract practices. And after all of that outreach, how many minority majority contractors, contractors who could do the job as a majority as a contractor without being a subcontractor? Have you identified -- and have been certified? Do you do your own certification?
Based on what parameters? You develop your own guidelines?
No, it's federally -- we do our own, but it's based on federal guidelines that we have to follow.
After all of this outreach and contact, how many contractors, minority contractors and subcontractors have you identified that you have on your roster that you could, if you have a contract, go out and promote and ask them to bid on this contract?
I'm guessing. I think it's educated guess, but about 500. We have 500 vendors that --
Councilman Goode. 2298 3/11/03 - FY '04 OPERATING BUDGET
I think Councilwoman Tasco may have been asking how many minority contractors qualify for your process as prime contractors?
She wasn't talking about subcontracts. I think she was asking how many qualify as prime contractors.
We do a certification that is not about qualifications of the company to perform as a prime contractor or a subcontractor. Our certification is measured by ownership and stock ownership and control of the company. And your question, I think, and correct me if I'm wrong, is how many minority contractors bid as primes. And we've had very few in the construction where minority contractors have been and been successful as prime contractors. I'm sorry. My name is Cecil Bond, Assistant General Manager of Business Services.
I think part of that question also, how many inside of the 18 percent goal, whatever goals you set how, many minority 2299 3/11/03 - FY '04 OPERATING BUDGET contractors have you anticipated filling the role of a prime?
Selection of minority contractors is based on the prime contractor who wins the bid. So the prime contractor bids on a project, whether it be minority or non-minority. If he's the lowest competitive bidder and he names minority firms to participate in that contract with him.
You don't start the minority participation process until after the prime contractor is selected; is that what you're saying?
The prime contractor selects the minority contractors, right, at the time of bid. They must submit the names of all the minority firms that are participating with their bid package. We identify firms that can bid on the project or can participate with the prime contractors way before the project is bidded.
Essentially, you're saying -- and I'm trying to really anticipate what the Councilwoman is saying. She's saying you don't anticipate that minority firms are going to get prime contractor work; you're not anticipating that. 2300 3/11/03 - FY '04 OPERATING BUDGET Your minority participation process starts after the prime contractor has been selected.
We can't anticipate what minority firms are going to bid the projects.
I'm assuming she's saying within the percent, whatever goal you set, 8 17, 18 percent, that you're not anticipating 9 minority contractors becoming the prime contractor. 10
But you're not 12 anticipating it in he goals that you're setting. 13
Minorities could -- it's 14 only based on, again, the scope of work and the 15 certified DBE firms. 16
I guess the 17 question I'm really trying to ask, how many minority 18 contractors who could be prime contractors have you identified through your outreach program? How many subcontractors have you identified through your outreach program who could be subcontractors to prime contractors?
Now I think I understand. For the subs, we have increase -- and they're easier because we have increased the number of subs 2301 3/11/03 - FY '04 OPERATING BUDGET because as they come in and we do the networking sessions, they have also put their paperwork in to become certified. So those we can actually with the passage of time track to give you those firms, that number. For primes, that's harder because you have to anticipate that you have some minority or disadvantaged businesses that will grow or mature to the point that they can become the prime. And in this outreach that we've done over the last year, we have not identified any of those individuals. We've had one vendor who had indicated that he was going to potentially try to be a prime for the stations bid that's out. But again, that's out, so we don't yet whether or not he's going to propose as a prime.
Who monitors the your project and the relationship between the prime contractor and the subcontractor?
If there is a dispute between the subcontractor and prime contractor, who in SEPTA is there to provide the mediation role, to play the mediation role to work it out? Or is there such a thing?
I wouldn't necessarily call 2302 3/11/03 - FY '04 OPERATING BUDGET it a mediation role, but we have a DBE unit, we have a procurement unit. And those areas are responsible for dispute resolution. Now, what happens is because the sub and the prime have a contractual relationship, there are certain limitations to what we can do. We can, obviously, bring them in. We can tell them they're messing up our project. We can give them all sorts of reasons for them to resolve. But if it's, say, a quality of work and the prime isn't accepting the sub's work, then it's really up to the prime because we hold the prime responsible. But those two units that I mentioned are the primary ones within SEPTA for dispute resolution.
What is your role in the -- I know, again, it's a contractual relationship. You have a subcontractor with a prime contractor. You pay the prime contractor; they don't pay the sub. What do you do about it?
We modified our standard form contracts in such a way that there is now a contractual obligation that once we pay them, they have 15to 20 days that they have to pay the sub. Again, because of the contractual relationship we 2303 3/11/03 - FY '04 OPERATING BUDGET have the prime, the check must be made out to the prime. But we are also with tightening up of our own contract, we're pushing those requirements down to the prime so that the sub get its money faster.
I've been working in this area since 1971 when I was with the Philadelphia Urban Coalition, and we're no further along now than we were back then in terms of this whole issue of minority participation. And I dare say that the faces of the people who sat before the Council in the '70s and '71 did not look like the people who are sitting at that table now. The question I ask is, what is your commitment to removing the barriers to allow for minority participation? And there are ways that can happen. And how serious are you about overcoming the barriers that workers, contractors, subcontractors face in participating in this market? Because it seems that every time something progresses, a rule changes. Those of us who are in these agencies and have the responsibility and who have the power to change the system, I ask what is the commitment?
I will tell you that from a 2304 3/11/03 - FY '04 OPERATING BUDGET SEPTA perspective, to show you our commitment, even with our own hiring we've moved from a population that was 45 percent minority, we're now generally 56 percent minority. We have actively participated in all the networking sessions and all the other get-togethers. We are actively introducing primes and subs and just sort of periodically checking on those relationships. We do believe a diverse work group as well as a diverse population of vendors, et cetera, is the best way to handle business. And that is our commitment. Now, in addition to all that, as you mentioned, the rules change. And unfortunately, when you're receiving a big piece of your money from the federal government, you have to adhere to those rules. So sometimes those rules sort of limit some of the things that we can do. But we are committed to a diversified work force as well as a diversified vendor list.
Yes, I have many of them. May I first point of information is to 2305 3/11/03 - FY '04 OPERATING BUDGET ask how long it's intended that the hearing go on today? Because I know that there are members of the Community College that have been here a long time. And unless we're going on indefinitely, I think the Chair ought to consider whether they ought to be excused until a later date. Because I know I have a whole series of questions of SEPTA. I know Councilman Rizzo has. And there may be others who also have. So that's the point of question. I have no idea of how long we intend to go. With respect to SEPTA, firs, what do you know about Ogontz Avenue? You saw the pictures in the Daily News yesterday. It happens that the area between Nedro Avenue and 65 Avenue happen to be in the 17th Ward where I'm the democratic leader. For years we've been fighting. We've been told that SEPTA just refuses to do anything. They refused originally to remove the tracks so that a decent re-paving job could be done, as a result of which, the City or the State -- we're never sure who -- did some kind of patch work paving which leaves these huge craters, practically, right next to the tracks, within inches of tracks and SEPTA does nothing. Now in addition to that, we suddenly had bicycle signs 2306 3/11/03 - FY '04 OPERATING BUDGET posted so that everybody is compelled to ride on the car tracks even though nobody uses car tracks. SEPTA hasn't used them in years. So can you tell us what is SEPTA's role in this?
I will tell that when you say the paper, I left it with my engineers because I didn't see this morning. I left it with my engineers and they're supposed to be telling me something when I get back to the office, whenever I get back. What I've asked them to do is just research our role to make sure of our roles and responsibilities. And they're supposed to brief me on that when I get back to the office.