COUNCIL OF THE CITY OF PHILADELPHIA COMMITTEE ON TRANSPORTATION AND PUBLIC UTILITIES Room 400, City Hall Philadelphia, Pennsylvania Wednesday, May 21, 2025 2:10 p.m. PRESENT: COUNCILMAN MICHAEL DRISCOLL, CHAIR COUNCILMAN JEFFREY YOUNG, JR., VICE-CHAIR COUNCILWOMAN KENDRA BROOKS COUNCILMAN CURTIS JONES, JR. COUNCILMAN ANTHONY PHILLIPS
I now note that the hour has come. Ms. McDonald, will you please call the roll to take attendance. Members that are in attendance, will you please indicate that you're present when your name is called.
Present. Thank you. A quorum of the committee is present and this hearing is now called to order. This is the public hearing of the Committee on Transportation and Public Utilities regarding Bill No. 13 250001, Bill No. 250487 and Resolution No. 250109. Ms. McDonald, will you please read the titles of the bills.
Bill No. 19 250001, authorizing the Procurement Commissioner to enter into agreements to purchase electricity, natural gas and motor fuel for use by the City in City facilities and vehicles, including agreements that obligate payment for delivery of such energy supplies in future fiscal years, all under certain terms and conditions. Bill No. 250487, authorizing the Procurement Commissioner, on behalf of the City, to enter into an agreement with the Philadelphia Energy Authority to purchase electricity and certain attributes and benefits related to the generation of such electricity from Abes Run Solar, LLC, for use in connection with City facilities, all under certain terms and conditions. And Resolution No. 18 250109, authorizing the Council Committee on Transportation and Public Utilities to hold hearings to investigate the potential locations of new intercity bus terminals in the City of Philadelphia.
Ms. McDonald, will you please call the first panel we have to testify this morning on Bill No. 250001.
Good morning. Please state your name for the record and please proceed with your testimony.
Good afternoon, Chair Driscoll and members of the committee. My name is Madeline Schuh, and I serve as the City Energy Manager for the City of Philadelphia and the Office of Sustainability, Division of Energy and Climate Solutions. I'm here in support of Bill No. 250001, sponsored by Council President Johnson and Councilmember Richardson. This bill authorizes the purchase of electricity, natural gas and vehicle fuel for the City and its facilities to be delivered through Fiscal Year 2028. In 2010, Council authorized the City to make electricity purchases for Fiscal Year 2011 through Fiscal Year 2014. In 2012, Council extended this authorization to Fiscal Year 2015 and has continued granting additional authorizations in subsequent years. Executive Order No. 6-10 authorized the creation of a City Energy Manager and created an Electricity Supply Advisory Committee. This committee meets quarterly to review the energy purchasing strategies. The City Energy Manager, reporting through the Office of Sustainability, serves as the primary manager of the procurement of all energy forums on behalf of the City including, but not limited to, electricity, natural gas and vehicle fuel for the General, Aviation and Water Funds. The energy procurement work is guided by the City's Municipal Energy Master Plan and through conversations with the City's Finance Department, Water Department and the Philadelphia International Airport. The Division of Energy and Climate Solutions strives for the City's energy procurement to be low cost, to provide budget certainty, to have transparent pricing and to do so by increasingly using clean and renewable energy. Examples of projects that provide greater budget certainty through diversification of the energy portfolio include renewable projects such as Adams Solar and energy conservation projects such as the Philly Streetlighting Improvement program. The City government's electricity costs are significant and costs for all three funds, General, Aviation and Water, average to 58 million over the previous three fiscal years. The cost to the General Fund, including streetlighting and signals, for Fiscal Year 2024 was approximately 28 million. The electricity supply portion of the total bill is about two-thirds of the total electricity cost. The City has successfully managed supply costs by purchasing in the wholesale electricity markets and staggering purchases to limit the risk of paying a premium for electricity. The proposed ordinance 24 would authorize the City to make agreements for the delivery of electricity through Fiscal Year 2028 through a state-regulated licensed service provider. The City's licensed service provider was selected through a competitive process and acts as the City's agent in making purchases in the regional electricity marketplace. In addition to electricity purchases, the City purchases natural gas and vehicle fuel from the competitive market for its largest buildings and accounts. million in Fiscal Year 2024. million. million in Fiscal Year 2024. 3 million. The proposed ordinance 8 would also authorize the City to make agreements for the delivery of natural gas and vehicle fuel through Fiscal Year 2028 with state and federally licensed providers. The current providers were selected through a competitive process and act as the City's agents in making purchases and energy markets. In closing, I anticipate that this procurement approach will continue to provide budget certainty for the City utility costs, while allowing the City to take advantage of competitive pricing and a diversified portfolio. It will also continue to protect the City from cost escalations and energy prices over the next several years. Thank you for the opportunity to testify today and I would be happy to answer any questions.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. For the record, can you give us the grid that we're speaking of, the general parameters, for which we are purchasing this particular energy?
Yes. So we are in the PJM electricity grid. And so, our grid stretches from Pennsylvania down to North Carolina and then all the way west to Chicago, is the only part of Illinois, so Indiana and then also D.C. So it's 13 states plus D.C.
Okay. And that is because we are in the Center City grid that we separate this for cost savings?
Yes. So this is just for the procurement for electricity, natural gas, fuel to run city-owned buildings. So it's not for residents. We're not purchasing on behalf of residents. It's only for operating our city- owned facilities.
And help me with the reason why we don't just get it from PECO?
So we purchase through third party supply because we're able to hedge years in advance. So we get budget stability and then some cost savings.
And we appreciate the efforts for the cost savings. Because as you know, PGW, PECO and water rates are all projected to go up this year. And in a tough economy, this is a time we really need to concentrate on this. So thank you for your testimony.
Hearing no further questions from the members of this panel and there being no other panelists to testify on Bill No. 250001, we will move on to Bill No. 250487. Ms. McDonald, will you please call the first panel to testify this morning on Bill No. 6 250487.
Hello again. So good afternoon. I'm Madeline Schuh and I serve as the City Energy Manager for the City of Philadelphia and the Office of Sustainability's Division of Energy and Climate Solutions. I'm here in support of Bill No. 250487, which authorizes the City to enter into an agreement with the Philadelphia Energy Authority to purchase renewable electricity on behalf of the City from the Abes Run Solar facility located in Clearfield County, Pennsylvania. The Division of Energy and Climate Solutions is responsible for implementation of the Municipal Energy Master Plan, which outlines four goals for sustainable municipal operations. Goals include: reducing greenhouse gas emissions by 50% from the City's built environment, reducing energy use from buildings by 20%, procuring 100% renewable electricity and reducing or maintaining costs all by 2030. Through a competitive RFP process, Abes Run emerged as the only project that met all compliance requirements while offering competitive pricing. Building on the success of Adams Solar, it will increase the City's total procured renewable electricity to approximately 30%. This project meets all of our goals, delivering 20 megawatts of clean energy for the City and moving us 5% closer to our 100% renewable energy target. Additionally, it provides a fixed rate price hedge for years, offering long-term 6 budget stability and protecting the 7 City from market volatility. If 8 approved, the owner-operator Oriden 9 Power, a subsidiary of Mitsubishi 10 Power Americas will design, build, 11 operate and maintain the 20 12 megawatt solar facility. 13 The City through PEA 14 will purchase 100% of the energy 15 and renewable energy attributes 16 produced from the facility. For 17 these reasons, we recommend the 18 approval of Bill No. 250487. Thank 19 you for this opportunity to testify 20 and I'm happy to answer any questions.
Thank you and good afternoon. I just have a question about this particular ordinance. How was, I guess, Abe's Run Solar selected? Was it an RFP process? Can you describe to us what that process looks like?
Yes. So we issued an RFP through the Philadelphia Energy Authority. I forget the exact number, but a number of companies responded to that RFP with a number of different projects that had varying lengths, amount of power being offered and different pricing. And so, through that we evaluated all of those attributes and came to Abe's Run as the one that met all of our compliance requirements and also offered the competitive pricing.
For this type of endeavor has the City done something like this before? And can you describe what the City has done in the past versus what's happening now?
Yes. So the City owns or the City buys the energy from Adams Solar which is located in Adams County, Pennsylvania. It is also a solar array. It's 70 megawatts and it's the same contracting structure. So it's a power purchase agreement that the City, you know, has through the Philadelphia Energy Authority and that project came online in early 2024.
Thank you, Chair Driscoll. I just want to know what are the compliance items that you were satisfied with that Abes fulfilled?
Yes. So it's best and good faith efforts project, so they outlined a -- sorry, let me pull up my chart -- an economic opportunity implementation plan that outlined best and good faith efforts, where during their EPC contracting they will include EOP targets for labor participation and workforce diversity into their EPC contracts as best and good faith efforts.
Okay. All right. Thank you. And then just out of curiosity, what was your closest competitor to Abes and why?
Yes. The closest competitor was another solar fields that was located in Ohio. However, they were not able to commit to our EOP requirements so they were disqualified.
Hearing no further questions from members of this panel, Ms. McDonald, will you please call the second panel we have to testify this morning on Bill No. 250487.
Good morning. Please state your name for the record and please proceed with your testimony.
Good afternoon, Chair Driscoll and members of the committee. I'm Katie Bartolotta, Vice-President of Policy and Strategic Partnerships with the Philadelphia Energy Authority or PEA. I'm testifying in support of Bill 250487 to authorize the City to enter into an agreement with PEA to purchase renewable electricity on its behalf from the Abes Run Solar facility in North Central, Pa. PEA is an independent municipal authority working to build a robust and equitable, clean energy economy in Philadelphia. We enable project development for the City and the School District and run a variety of consumer and workforce programs that support the growth of our market and our communities. To date, we have supported over $1 billion in energy projects and created 8400 jobs. PEA works closely with the Office of Sustainability or OOS to fulfill its normal course of business, evaluating and pursuing cost- effective energy procurement strategies that align with the goals of the Municipal Energy Master Plan. In particular, PEA provides capabilities the City does not have on its own, including holding long-term contracts for energy procurement for projects just like Abes Run Solar. PEA provides energy, deal structure and contracting expertise to support the City's robust energy procurement strategy that Maddie outlined earlier. Selected through a competitive bid process, the 19 megawatt Abes Run Solar Power 20 Purchase Agreement or PPA will constitute 5% of the City's electricity supply. A PPA is a common structure used to develop and finance solar projects. The City commits to buying electricity from the array from a third party owner who handles construction and all operations and maintenance of the system over the term of the 20-year contract. This, as mentioned before, the City's second utility scale, PPA, after the 2024 Adams Solar project, which was a great success. Through this procurement contract, the City will purchase electricity at a fixed rate, resulting in increased budget stability and reducing risk exposure to volatile energy markets. PEA supports the Abes Run Solar project is a key procurement strategy to ensure that the City's energy supply is clean, cost-controlled and affordable for the long term. For these reasons, we ask for your support of Bill No. 250847 -- sorry, 250487. 2
Thank 5 you. Just out of curiosity, if the 6 Adams Solar project was such a 7 success, where did they -- what's 8 the difference between that project 9 and this project for them to not be 10 the selected, I guess, the selected 11 vendor for this? 12
So it's not 13 necessarily an issue with the Adams 14 Solar project, but we just need to 15 bring more of these projects 16 online. So there's different 17 developers, different locations. 18 It depends on planned availability, 19 who's willing to build them. But 20 as Maddie mentioned before, this 21 was our compliant and cost- 22 effective proposal from the bunch. 23 So this is another opportunity for 24 Philadelphia to move toward its 100% clean electricity goal.
Hearing no further questions from members of this panel and there being no other panels to testify on the bills before the committee, we will now transition to our public comment session on Bill Nos. 250001 and 250487. If you will be giving public comment on Resolution No. 13 250109 regarding the bus terminal, please sit tight. Ms. McDonald, will you please call the first person making public comment we have to testify this morning on bills before this committee today.
So I'd like to thank all of our witnesses for joining us today and that will conclude the hearing and we'll now go into the public meeting. There being no further questions from members of the committee and no other witnesses to testify on Bill No. 250001 and Bill 8 No. 250487, I will ask if there's anyone else present in this hearing whose name we have failed to call and that wishes to offer testimony on the bills being considered today. (No response.)
Hearing none, I want to thank the panels and the witnesses for their participation today. We value your opinions. We will now go into a public meeting to consider the actions to be taken on the bills before this committee today before returning to the public meeting to discuss Resolution 250109. Ms. McDonald, will you please call the roll to take attendance. Members that are in attendance, please indicate you are present when your name is called.
Present. Chair recognizes Councilmember Squilla for a motion on Bill No. 250001.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I move that Bill No. 11 250001 be reported from this committee with a favorable recommendation and further move the rules of Council be suspended as to permit first reading of this bill 16 at the next session of Council. (Duly seconded.)
The Chair notes for the record that Councilmember Jones seconds this motion. It has been moved and properly seconded that Bill No. 23 250001 be reported from this committee with a favorable recommendation and further moved that the rules of Council be suspended to permit first reading of this bill at the next session of Council. All those in favor of the motion signify by saying aye. (Aye.)
The ayes have it. The motion carries. Chair recognizes Councilman Squilla for a motion on Bill No. 250487.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I move that Bill No. 18 250487 be reported from this committee with a favorable recommendation and further move the rules of Council be suspended to permit the first reading of this bill at the next session of Council. (Duly seconded.)
The Chair notes for the record that Councilmember Young seconds the motion. It has been moved and properly seconded that Bill No. 7 250487 be reported from this committee with a favorable recommendation and further move that the rules of Council be suspended to permit first reading of this bill at the next session of Council. All those in favor of the motion will signify by saying aye. (Aye.)
The ayes have it. The motion carries. This concludes the public meeting of the Committee of Licenses and Inspections regarding Bill Nos. 250001 and 250487. We will now resume the public hearing on Resolution 250109. Ms. McDonald, will you please call the roll to take attendance. Members that are in attendance, will you please indicate that you're present when your name is called -- oh, okay. I'm sorry. Let me note for the record Public Transportation. This concludes the public meeting of the Committee of Public Transportation regarding Bill Nos. 250001 and 250487.
Present. Thank you. A quorum of the committee is present and this hearing is now called order. We have over panelists here to 18 testify on this resolution so we 19 ask that written testimony be 20 summarized when possible and that repetitious comments be limited. Ms. McDonald, will you please call the first panel we have to testify this morning -- this afternoon on Resolution 250109.
But before we start, I'd like to recognize Member Young.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. And I want to thank everyone in advance for being here to give us your testimony on what I think is a very important issue. We're going to hear a lot of testimony from you, from the public about the importance of having the intercity bus terminal. And we wanted to do this to hear from you because we have some very important, important events coming up in our city in 2026. I think this resolution 22 calling this hearing is so important that every single member of City Council signed off on this resolution to hold this hearing because it is that critical to the future of our city. Our city is the largest city in the country that does not have a bus station, an intercity bus station for its passengers. If we're looking for people to come here to celebrate the Semiquincentennial, right, the 250th birthday of our country, we must roll out the red carpet. But instead of rolling out the red carpet on these buses, you're rolling out dirty concrete and we don't want visitors from all over the region and our country and the world to have to see that. We want to give them something to look forward to in 2026 as they come here. We'll have the TED Democracy flagship event. Of course, folks know about FIFA World Cup, NCAA March Madness, MLB All Star Game, PGA championships and typical Wawa Welcome America that we have to really celebrate the birthday of our nation, so we don't want things to get swept under the rug here. We want to be proactive as we invite the world to our city, and we want to make sure that our city can extend its best hand to those folks. These intercity bus terminals serve the most vulnerable populations, the low income, the disabled, the elderly, and we have to ensure that our most vulnerable populations have the means to travel safely throughout this country. And so, I look forward to hearing the testimony of you all and how we can move our city forward to be the 21st century city, to be that world class city that I know Philadelphia can be, because I personally visited the site where the buses are. I mean, I go to the cleaners that's right there in that plaza a couple times a month. And for me, I'm embarrassed by it. And I want to make sure that our city gets it right for the future, and listening to you all will help us make sure that we get it right. So thank you for being here. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Member, thank you for your leadership on this and thank you for those insightful comments. Ms. McDonald, will you please call the first panel for testimony.
John Mondlak. Available for questions is Nicola Mammes from the Office of Transportation and Infrastructure Systems and Richard Montanez from the Streets Department. (Witnesses approached witness table.)
Good afternoon, members of the Committee on Transportation and Public Utilities. My name is John Mondlak. I'm the First Deputy Chief of Staff in the Department of Planning and Development. I'm joined by Kathleen Grady, Deputy Strategic Initiatives and Executive Administration in the Department of Planning and Development; Mason Austin, Director of Transportation Planning at the City of Philadelphia Planning Commission. Nicola Mammes, Transit Fares Program Director; and Richard Montanez to my right, Deputy Streets Commissioner. I'm here to testify on the ongoing work by the city staff to help improve conditions for intercity bus passengers in Philadelphia and to secure a long-term facility to support intercity bus travel. First, I'd like to give a brief overview of how we arrived at our current position for more than 35 years. Up until the end of 2025, the majority of regularly scheduled intercity bus trips in Philadelphia stopped at the Greyhound station at 1001 Filbert Street. In 2023, Greyhound terminated its lease on that building in keeping with its parent company's business model of divesting itself of real estate holdings and obligations. Meaning, they sold their real estate assets and they canceled their leases wherever possible and they've done that nationwide. Peter Pan Bus Lines, Martz Trailways and Fullington Trailways, which were subtenants to Greyhound, also ceased operations at 1001 Filbert Street at that same time June 2023. Following an initial move to 6th and Market, the City shifted operations to Spring Garden in November of 2023. The shift was based on the availability of manageable curb space, access to public transit and interstate highway on and off ramps, the ability to flexibly accommodate a facility of this size near Center City. In spring 2024, Mayor Parker charged staff with -- charged us to provide real short- term improvements to bus riders of the neighborhood, identify options to increase capacity for 2026 and develop a thoughtful long-term solution of which Philadelphia can be proud. Intercity bus carriers are currently operating curbside on Spring Garden Street between North Front and North 2nd in Northern Liberties, with several carriers permitted curbside on Schuylkill Avenue between Walnut and Chestnut Streets and University City. The City of Philadelphia contracts with DRWC, Delaware River Waterfront Corporation, to supply personnel referred to as ambassadors to greet and orient arriving and departing intercity bus patrons on Spring Garden Street, to provide safe, clean and comfortable bathroom facilities located on Noble Street, south of spring garden between Front and North Beach. Staff with the Office of Transportation Infrastructure Systems, OTIS, and the Streets Department, Managing Director's Office are working to improve bus operations on Spring Garden. Goals include providing additional and more easily-accessible amenities while addressing the safety and security concerns of intercity bus passengers, and the broader community by moving all or most operations out of the right-of-way. We are in the process of developing options based on available off-street locations for community and intercity bus carrier review and feedback. In preparation for 2026, the Department of Planning and Development in coordination with OTIS, Streets and Commerce is working to develop bus operations that can accommodate the increased bus volume expected, ensure that they are centrally located, provide welcoming and dignified amenities, have easy access to interstate and ADA-accessible transit and serve until the creation of a long-term facility.
Guiding criteria used for the interim location are: Sites that are near accessible public transit, sites that have space for waiting areas for riders to include bathrooms and sheltering from inclement weather, sites that can accommodate onsite sales ticketing, since not everybody buys their ticket online, sites that have easy access to highways with minimal time spent on neighborhood streets and sites that have proximity to businesses such as retail restaurants and cafés. City staff have taken a data-driven approach to identify potential locations using a multi- step process to determine the feasibility of sites. First, staff internally completed a GIS analysis to create a potential universe of sites that met certain criteria, including within a quarter mile of an offstreet SEPTA station in the metro network or regional rail station serving more than one line, lots that are at least 7000 square feet, sites that can accommodate or able to create wide enough widths for bus turning radius, sites that are ideally owned by the City or another municipal entity and sites that can launch in time to meet the 2026 event needs. Based on the technical requirements, 120 sites were identified. The list was narrowed to six potential sites based on programmatic goals, site configurations and specific site attributes. The City engaged a consulting firm to complete a traffic impact analysis for each site. The scope of work includes driveway analysis, roadway analysis, traffic impacts, bicycle and pedestrian access, ADA access assessment and an evaluation of transit connectivity and feasibility and recommendations for drop-off and pick-up locations. This work is underway and the department expects the work to be completed by (inaudible). Using this information, the City will continue to narrow the list of feasible sites and begin conversations with communities who could be impacted. The community engagement will include potential neighbors to the site, bus carriers and other large institutions. The City is also working diligently to secure a site for the development of a long-term intercity bus facility. In support of this effort, the Planning Commission pursued and was awarded a Transportation and Community Development Initiative grant, a TCDI grant, for planning to assess potential sites and provide a framework for final site inspection. City staff conducted another comprehensive analysis of parcels across the city using similar criteria as the interim site but with larger size requirements that would accommodate a more comprehensive facility, either stand-alone or as part of a larger development project. For this search, staff looked at sites that are currently vacant or in use as parking service, parking lots, including both publicly and privately-owned sites near high frequency ADA accessible transit, among these sites locations within or near Center City with safe and well-amenitized pedestrian environments and with reasonably close highway access were prioritized. Lots with existing development plans or with prohibitively high cost of acquisition were eliminated. The top six sites on that list have been provided to the TCDI-funded consultant for further analysis and feasibility impacts. As those analysis proceeds, city staff will work to conduct necessary outreach both citywide and targeted to neighborhoods directly adjacent to potential sites. Because staff want to ensure that communities hear directly from us and only after the viability of sites are confirmed, we will not be naming specific sites at this time, but a first round of engagement will be underway this fall with another in the spring of 2026. The consultant report will recommend one to three sites for further analysis, planning and negotiation with final selection planned for the following year. Intercity bus travel is an important mode of transportation for the city of Philadelphia, providing a low cost travel option for Philadelphians and visitors to our city.
We understand that this work requires attention to the needs of nearby neighbors, residential and businesses, bus passengers and carriers themselves. Thank you for your time today and I'm happy to answer questions that you might have.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. And thank you for your testimony, Mr. Mondlak. I really appreciate it. Those six sites that are being looked at for the short-term and the long-term, are they the same six sites?
All right. And can you tell us what are the differences in -- I mean, you went through the testimony but what are the key differences that would make you select those six temporary sites versus the six long-term sites?
One or two differences would be the long-term site would need to be larger because we're anticipating the need for a much bigger facility long- term that would require a lot of infrastructure improvement and things like that. I think the other difference would be the availability needs to be perpetual on the long-term site, but it doesn't necessarily need to be perpetual on the interim site. And that's really what I can think of now as a big distinguishing factor. There very well may be others that our consultants are looking at or folks could add a little bit later as they come up.
And how do some of our peer cities I guess generate revenue or charge the bus facilities, the bus operators for using some of those facilities?
I can't tell you how others -- I know folks on the team and Rich may have been to other cities. I know we've toured other cities. I can tell you that we are hoping to introduce an ordinance that allows us to codify a system of chargebacks that we hope to introduce to have conversations over the summer and solidify what we are doing. But I don't think I can qualify myself to speak to what other cities are doing by way of revenue generation.
So can you describe to us what we are doing as a city regarding the curbside drop-off, the permits necessary for the operators, any fees they pay and things like that?
Can you describe to us what the current situation is with the bus operators regarding the curbside drop-off, any fees they pay and any permits that are necessary and things like that?
Yeah. I think if someone from OTIS can come up they can give you a more detailed answer. But we do have agreements with some of the carriers to provide compensation for the work and we're looking to renew those. I believe they've expired and we're looking to renegotiate those right now.
Richard Montanez, Deputy Commissioner of Streets. All the carriers are issued a permit to pull curbside per city code. So as such, they do pay a fee for that. We're utilizing that fee to then pay for the amenities such as restrooms, the ambassadors and all that. So it's a passthrough back to DRWC to provide the amenities they're providing.
So it's just a curbside permit. There's no additional charges they have to pay in order to -- outside of doing business in the city of Philadelphia, there's no explicit, you know, intercity bus operator fee or something like that that the City would charge them for the privilege of using the public right-of-way?
When it comes to -- I guess most of my questions are about other cities and what we've done. So I'm not sure if anyone can help answer. I know the consultants are here that can answer those questions. But when we look at what other cities have been doing like in Boston, you know, particularly Boston, Boston is the peer city that I think of that is an older colonial city just like Philadelphia, has some of the same challenges that we have with our streetscape and our grid, things like that. Can we talk about why we are in this position now versus what some of the other cities have done in the past? Like, we relied on a private entity like Greyhound to be in charge of our intercity bus terminals and other cities have not? And could you just talk to us about what that thinking is and why we're left in a situation now because of that private entity decided to divest its assets?
I think the only thing I could respond to that is up until summer of 2023 it was working. We had a system that worked. Not without any complaints, but it generally did work. Most of the buses did go through that location and there would have been no point really to create an alternative situation and probably would not have been well received by anybody if we did that. And I also would note that they had a legal right to terminate their lease. That was not the end of the term. And so, it was a little bit surprising. And I don't know, maybe y'all remember, for a bit everyone assumed that it was the Sixers that kicked them out of that site. And I read about that many times in the paper and couldn't believe it. And we went after the Sixers like, well, you just bought another site. And they're like, we had nothing to do with it, they wanted out. And then, sure enough, we understood that bus carriers are being bought up by investors and their goal is to limit costs. And so, if they had assets, they sold the assets and took the money. If they had leases, they terminated and they had a legal right to terminate this lease and that's what they did. And so, I don't know, should we have been more proactively responsible to know that that happened or to really jump on that in 2023? Maybe, but we didn't and this is where we're at.
So how did we come to -- when did we find out that this lease was going to be terminated and then how long after was it terminated?
I could only speak to myself that I found out a month or two before the termination. So I found out right about when it happened. I don't know if anybody has a different answer.
Yeah. I mean, I just think they just left us holding the bag essentially. And now, we're here scrambling trying to figure out what to do when we have these literally world class events coming to our city. So I'm trying to figure out how we as a city -- and that's why I asked about the fees and things like that. How can we as a city hold some of those operators accountable, particularly for -- I mean, they left us again holding this mess that we are dealing with.
On the fee component, I just want to add a little bit of more detail there and share -- so my name is Nicola Mammes. I'm the Transit Fares Program Director with the Managing Director's Office and I meet regularly with all of the carriers so that we can have more collaboration and awareness of needs and issues. And on the cost-sharing piece, we certainly want to enter into agreements with the carriers to share the cost of operating the intercity bus operations in the immediate but also in the long- term. And so, those are ongoing conversations. We're working on a cost estimate of what that's going to actually cost to operate and also plan for the future. And many of them have already articulated to me that they're interested in partnering with us and that they want to move forward with agreements. We just want to be transparent in how we're coming up with our cost estimates. We want to make sure we're providing additional amenities so that we are addressing the concerns of the community and also the bus patrons. And then once we have a good idea of what that's going to look like, move forward with those agreements and have that cost-sharing structure in place. And then as John Mondlak indicated, we are also working on introducing an ordinance through legislation to have a more longer- term solution so that we can start thinking about how we as a city provide a world class terminal for folks to come to Philadelphia. So all of that is in progress and actively partnering with the carriers to implement that moving forward.
I just want to note the attendance of Member Kendra Brooks. And the Chair recognizes Member Jones.
Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'm sitting here, Member Young, having a flashback not about myself but about my son, who went to Florida A&M, and that's 1700 miles across the country. The first couple times me and my wife took him down it was a fun road trip. Drove, stopped off in the Carolinas, bought things, fireworks, things like that. After the fifth or so time, it stopped being fun. And so, his frequent trips home we would often put him on a bus which required him to travel across the country. And I put my son, my baby boy, on a bus. And when he came home after graduation, he was a grown man. The trip actually was a part of his growing up. But what I remember about that bus station often that there was a mix of crossroads of people. A lot of them were college students just like him. Some of them were more in need, poorer people, that this their only means to get from Point A to Point B. And I ask now based on the current system, back then you had amenities. If you had to go to bathroom, if the bus was delayed, if it was inclement weather, if those things happened, there was at least a shelter to be warm. Security another issue, because everybody that comes to a bus stop sometimes they have their reasons. But if you were being harassed, approached, sometimes predators go there, you had security there to take that responsibility. I ask now on this curbside pickups what happens in inclement weather? What happens if a bus is delayed? Who is responsible for clearing the pathway so that people don't slip and fall and hurt themselves? How does a city, how are we abdicating that kind of role when everybody doesn't get to fly first class? There's a group of people that this is their only means. So I guess where do we fall short in our policy not to -- do we assume that with any license that wants to pick up curbside, what are the responsibilities they have?
The permit allows them to pull curbside. The carriers -- again, the City uses those funds to give back to DRWC, who then maintains the area, keeps it clean, keeps it clear snow by using their own gators and all that. So our biggest partner in this will be the DRWC, who's been assisting us and cleaning the bathrooms, cleaning the area, keeping the area free of litter and things like that.
What happens when a bus gets canceled or delayed significantly?
So in this case, a lot of them wait under Spring Garden which keeps them out of the rain, underneath I-95 at Spring Garden. A lot of patrons wait there at the SEPTA station. Others, there is a small waiting room for tickets. I believe it holds about 10 people who wait there to --
Yes, underneath I-95 at Spring Garden at the SEPTA stations.
And just to add a little bit to what Rich Montanez shared, part of what we want to do is -- well, we acknowledge first and foremost that it could be a lot better and that's what we really want to move towards, is improving conditions on Spring Garden while we find an interim and then a long-term site. So as part of improving conditions on Spring Garden, what we really would like to do is move off street into private property that we lease and then that we have placement of waiting room trailers. So our goal is to have two waiting room trailers so enough space for all the folks using any of the carriers to access in addition to colocating a bathroom facility for those folks, and all of that would be ADA accessible. I will say that Peter Pan does lease space on Spring Garden. It's a small space, but they do let other folks use the space. So if anybody does need to sit down depending on their needs that is available to them. But for the most part, folks are waiting under the overpass. And again, we want to make that better and improve that and that's part of our planning work right now on Spring Garden.
In any of their business models are we a profitable stop? I don't know how to classify that. Is Philly an important stop to their business model?
I don't speak for the carriers, but I will say just in my understanding of servicing Philadelphia it is a really great market. It's on the Northeast corridor, you know, between D.C. and New York City. And so, it is certainly important and they want to see us make investments and they want to collaborate with us on making investments. So I would say yes, but I also defer to the carriers to speak to that from a business standpoint.
I just want to thank Member Young for kind of elevating this issue, particularly in light of our celebration coming, that everybody doesn't get to come in the Philadelphia airport first class. Some people find their way to experience our city humping backpacks, and we need to accommodate them as well. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Thank you, Chairman Driscoll. So in your testimony, you mentioned that we had a site for travel, which was the Greyhound Station. However, what I want to notice that it was only for Greyhound, Peter Pan and whatever people that Greyhound contracted. It wasn't an intercity space. The space that you're looking to find, is that going to -- because there was always the Chinatown buses. They never worked in Greyhound. They never were in the Greyhound station I don't believe -- well, some of them were, but I don't think a lot of them were. Once you get this intercity space for busing, is the plan to have and regulate all buses to go into this one space and they can no longer be curbside?
Yeah. So it's a very good point. The old station, I think there was maybe four major carriers working but not all of them were using that site. Chinatown used 11th Street and still does other carriers. Carriers used other places on the sidewalk. So the goal would be to aggregate as many of the big carriers as we can. But we also need to be aware that there are quite a few people bringing passengers into Philly and picking up passengers in Philly. So we need to think about if a site we identify maybe is a great site but can't accommodate everybody, then maybe there needs to be a couple sites with some overflow. So I don't know that I can tell you that every single one of them will be in our site, but I think you sort of work towards that goal and see how many you can get. And then if there needs to be a couple here and there, like right now we have a couple that stop on Schuylkill Avenue in West Philly, it's not significant, but it adds to the volume without necessarily requiring us to build a facility that's so big that it becomes just a problem or it costs --
And even Megabus in University City near 30th Street, they've never used that site when it was there.
So I just think about what's the goal here, right. Is the goal to bring everyone into one space or is the goal to just make sure that there's great accommodations everywhere regardless if it's curbside or if it's the --
The honest answer is the goal is to pull as many as we can, but really it's to do it right and do it in the least disruptive way. And if that means a couple of sites, that means a couple of sites. And I don't think we know the answer to that. But it's definitely something we're looking at.
Yeah. I mean, I just want to echo the point that I think that there should be some level of standards that have to be held in order to have your bus be a curbside space. That point I do agree with. Whether or not I just hope it doesn't impact pedestrian space when you do that. Last question I have for you, I know you're going to be working with some consultants after you just got this federal grant to kind of do studies. I just want to get a better sense of in that grant application, did you describe a timeline because I'm used to the City of Philadelphia always looking and investigating things, but I'm not used to the city having a strong timeline on when they should have their findings completed, when they should have execution, when execution should begin? So how do we go from brainstorming phase to planning now to execution? Do you have a timeline for that?
There is a timeline for the TCDI grant, which is the end of Fiscal '26 so about a year from now, maybe a little more, months or so. 12
13 And what do you foresee after you 14 did the study to figure out what spaces or parcels are available for an intercity bus terminal? What do you perceive as the timeline after that?
That will depend on the site. Some sites will likely require much more investment in infrastructure and it could be -- I mean, it's going to be years. This is not a normal development project that you can do in two years so it's going to be more than two years. But I think it really depends on the characteristics of the site to determine exactly how many years and how much, but I could only say more than two.
So you're saying Member Young who called this hearing would be able to get a report from you all by the end of 2026 on those findings from that --
All right. Seems like a long time but all right. Thank you.
Thank you so much. So Councilmember Jones kind of sparked something in me, and I think about the time as a mom coming from wherever on the bus with my children. And it's a stop in the middle of the night. It's a rest stop and everyone gets off the bus. One place I remember, Salisbury, Maryland. You go into a gas station and use the bathroom. I take all my little children at the time, I had three then, load back on a bus to get back on. I remember one time the bus the connecting bus wasn't there so we had to take our things off and stand on the side in this gas station and wait for them to find another bus to take us to the rest of our route. I can't imagine that happening here in Philadelphia under the underpass at Spring Garden. So when I heard that the station was closed, I had a lot of phone calls in my office about this as well and it's been a couple years now. And my question was about timeline too because I'm certain -- now I don't have those same struggles, but I'm certain there are other families that are trying to get from place to place that are experiencing this. And we have this impression as the City of Brotherly love ad I can't imagine another parent under the underpass at Spring Garden with three kids in the middle of the night waiting for the next bus to connect. I feel like as we think through this it has to be some immediate solutions. And I've seen folks at 30th Street with kids, which is scary, and what are we doing? The timeline is important, but is there any way for us to expedite that because safety is of importance? And as we get ready -- 2026 is one thing. I'm talking about the reality of families that are traveling from here to there and what does safety look like in Philadelphia. And currently, these stops don't seem like a safe solution for me. And actually, I do have a daughter that's away in college. She's at Norfolk State and we opt to use Amtrak because I can't be bothered with this bus confusion. But I also realize I'm at a point of privilege and I can make a choice not to use the bus and opt to take the train because it's a little bit more expensive or fly her back home if it's an emergency. So I would really like to know what can we do to kind of expedite this and all these things being taken in consideration? I heard some really good things about the trailer options and all that. But what about now? We've already been in this influx for several years now and I'm really concerned about even before 2026, like people are traveling today. This story that I'm telling is happening to somebody today, not just in Philadelphia but across the country, you know, because transportation has failed some people, and I've experienced it myself and this was many years ago. So are we aware of any other major cities that do not have or have these type of terminals that we could replicate and make them much safer? I think some of the locations we have are very questionable, especially when I saw people at 30th Street unloading the bus. That was kind of right off the -- that didn't seem safe. And did we find any equitable locations for these terminals to be? I heard you say there were six particular terminals. And I was wondering what the infrastructure looks like besides the bathroom and shelter. What would it be like if a parent with two children, small children, is it feasible for them to be there with multiple folks that are unloading the bus that could have, what, 50, 60 people on it? And that's one of my concerns. Because to me it's a quality of life issue and I would like for us to make sure that we're thinking through all of these little things. I do appreciate Councilmember Jones talking about his situation, but I immediately like I said was brought back to my experiences of having to ride the bus. And I hope that we're looking through that lens of families that this is their only option to go travel and visit when we have other options now.
So I hope I was kind of clear on the direction I was going in with that.
I think you were, Councilmember. I just summarize that there are things we want to do right now. And Nicola mentioned a couple and she could talk more to improve the situation exactly where it is right now with offstreet, waiting rooms. And we're open to other suggestions that can make it better. That standard we want to continue at whatever site we select for 2026 and the interim site. And then long-term, as I said, is the one that's going to take years. We'll hopefully have plenty of time to do it right and just get all the amenities that we need and make sure that everything is thought for and accounted for. So there isn't a wait for years to make it better. 7 The idea to make it better is do 8 now and again. Nicola mentioned 9 some of that. And if you'd like, 10 we can I think talk more about what those are.
I did hear some of the suggestions, but the timeline was of my concern. I'm thinking about what about -- like, this is happening to someone now. I'm saying I had the experience. So what I'm hearing happening here in Philadelphia is much worse than I experienced while I was in Salisbury, Maryland. I can't think of other rest stops that stops where the bus did. And Philadelphia can't be that experience for folks as we talk about growing tourism and just options for Philadelphia. It can't be a point of horror for a family traveling for whatever reason. And I would love to kind of talk more to that. And we don't have to do it right now on the record, but I just -- Councilmember Jones just triggered some memories in my mind and I was wondering what are the solutions in the immediate for people that are traveling.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. And thank you for your testimony. And I know we said it was a surprise that they left. I mean, I think there's been plans in the city for over 10 years of a permanent station and understanding why that didn't happen. I think we knew they were leaving once they sold their property years ago. And I think the goal was to have an interim place. And I know we rapidly responded to Market Street initially and had that there. It didn't work out. Moved it to Spring Garden and Delaware Avenue, which is not a great location, and have other ideas. But I think part of the issue and concern is the full blown plan and the trust from the community that are receiving these locations. We had another possible location in Old City that had some other issues with the park services. But I think part of the concern is people want to see a long-term plan, an interim plan because it's hard to trust anything we do on an interim basis will not be forever. And I get concerns from my constituents as I received with you all about the challenge in that people do want and need a place for transit to operate. We all know the street is not the best place for that, right. We all know now that this is an effort that is being made by the city to find a location, an interim location until we have a grand location that we can then have all these transportation buses and other providers go to. But if we are looking at a wide range of interim places, how do those people know that that is not going to be once it goes there ever moved because nobody else would want a location in their area? How do we convince them, how do we show them, how do we tell people that, yes, it's here because right now it's on Spring Garden Street and we have a lot of challenges with that. If it stays there for another two years, an interim space, are we talking an interim space of years and then a 7 permanent space? How do we explain 8 where it goes, where it is now, 9 where the proposal could go, how 10 long that is and then when a permanent space would be available?
I think you hit the nail on the head, Councilman. I think that's what a lot of people are thinking. And I understand the trust issue because I know that different things were said at different times and they didn't come to fruition. So I totally understand that. And I'm sure you're going to hear about a lot of that today and it's not wrong. What I can say is that we applied for the grant for a reason. We knew that we needed to do a thorough long-term strategy. We have a consultant evaluating sites right now because we know we need to take it seriously and we need to try to not make the same missteps that we made leading up to this. And all we can do is share that as we develop it and reach conclusions and finish our analysis. And will there be people that don't trust us? Sure. And we're going to have to earn that trust back and it's going to take time, but we don't have that information to share today which I'm sure is going to be a point of frustration for lots of folks.
And as you say that, obviously we know there's going to be an interim space, whether it's the current one that's there, right, or another one. Are we doing it parallel with an interim space and a permanent space that we're going to do? Are they parallel tracks? Is there something that we could say that -- I don't know what the study is going to show and what areas are going to be there. That's the question that I'm getting. Nobody knows. It seems like any time you say something's temporary people believe that temporary becomes permanent because it's done, we don't have to bother anybody else.
Yeah. So it is concurrently, although there's a much shorter time frame for figuring out the interim site. That's something that we should have the information back this summer, so we should be able to talk about that in the fall because we need to have that decision made before 2026. The long-term solution we don't need to make this year. And so, that will be on a longer timeline, but they will be running concurrent for now. Yeah.
Just one quick question. So why are we prioritizing a municipally-owned or public space versus going after or looking at a private space that is already available, already outfitted for the things that we're trying to accomplish here?
Well, there can be challenges. So if it's municipally-owned, you cut through a lot of that negotiation that you have to have. Sites that are privately-owned could be incredibly cost-prohibitive. There was, as the Councilman alluded to, a thought of moving to a site that had jurisdiction by the Park Service. And on its surface, it seemed like, okay, it's a site that was built for buses and why shouldn't buses be there, but there was huge community outrage over it and there was also opposition from the National Park Service. So I think every site is unique and the more likely we have an ownership interest, that takes one issue off the table. If you're dealing with a property owner, a lot of property owners they have their ideas of what they want to develop on the site and it's often not a bus depot or a bus station so they're not necessarily interested. If they have other assets in the area, they would definitely not be interested. Often the cost can be prohibitive. The timeline can be long, so there are challenges. It's not to say that we wouldn't consider it. It just makes it harder. But it's preferable just for the sake of simplicity if it were government-owned.
Hearing no further questions, thank you for your testimony.
I have one other question. So it's not like it's out of the question. You're saying it's easier if it was publicly-owned, but we are still going to look at --
Thank you for your testimony. Ms. McDonald, please call the next panel.
Jody Holton, Chris Valentin, Wendy Harvey Green. (Witnesses approached witness table.)
Please state your name for the record and proceed with your testimony.
Christopher Valentin. Good afternoon, Transportation and Public Utilities Committee Chair, Driscoll, Vice-Chair Young, Councilmembers Phillips, Jones, Squilla and Brooks. I'm Chris Valentin, Assistant Chief Operating Officer of Bus Operations at SEPTA. I'm pleased to be joined by Jody Holton, our Chief Planning and Strategy Officer. Thank you for the opportunity to testify on behalf of SEPTA on this important conversation regarding the location of Philadelphia's intercity bus terminal. We also want to thank the Philadelphia Planning Commission for including us as a stakeholder in this process. SEPTA fully supports this effort to identify dedicated intercity bus facility. Intercity bus facility at the Greyhound station was moved in July of 2023 from 10th and Filbert to the 600 block of Market Street. This sudden transition severely disrupted SEPTA operations, the flow of traffic and the safety of pedestrians. The sudden shift also rendered ineffective, especially designated red-painted bus lanes which were critical infrastructure investment by the City and PennDOT, the aim to improve transit efficiency in a congested corridor. Instead of facilitating traffic flow, these lanes became long-term parking zones for buses, private vehicles, taxis and rideshare services. The resulting congestion created unsafe conditions for SEPTA operators and customers, pedestrians, bicyclists and intercity bus users. Specific challenges for SEPTA included transit stops that were obstructed by idling intercity buses and cars, crosswalks being blocked by intercity buses encroaching on intersections and intercity bus workers loading luggage street side on Market Street during rush hour. These issues slowed SEPTA travel on a major arterial route and negatively impacted service reliability and accessibility for our customers. SEPTA was forced to discontinue the bus stop at 6th and Market Street due to the mounting safety concerns raised by our employees. This closure eliminated direct customer access to key landmarks such as the Liberty Bell, Independence Mall, National Constitution Center along with adjacent businesses. After months of operational chaos, intercity bus services were relocated to the 200 block of Spring Garden Street. While the move alleviated pressure on Market Street, new challenges emerged. The current location compromises our Route 43 bus stop outside of Spring Garden station on the El. The current intercity bus zone also occupies a staging zone SEPTA uses for emergency shuttle buses during El outages. This limits our ability to respond swiftly to service disruption on this vital transit line. Late next year the shuttle staging area will become even more necessary to the city's transit network as I-95 reconstruction begins at Spring Garden Station and shuttles will be needed more frequently to handle construction-related outages on the El. Intercity buses are an important part of our region's transportation network and SEPTA fully supports the city's efforts to identify an appropriate location for a permanent terminal. We understand that locating a new terminal in a safe, accessible and centrally located site that meets the needs of our transportation network users will be challenging. SEPTA's offstreet bus terminals, which are our loops and transit centers, are at capacity, and we face our own operational challenges securing onstreet space for layovers in the city's congested street grid. Additionally, ongoing construction projects and frequent scheduled and unscheduled disruptions require SEPTA to repeatedly relocate layover locations on our busiest routes. This instability renders an onstreet intercity terminal inadvisable. The ideal location for the terminal should provide a dedicated offstreet facility equipped with areas for passengers, drop-offs, pickups, waiting areas, safe boarding and aligning for all intercity coaches.
The location of the new intercity bus terminal should also facilitate convenient access to the SEPTA system without disrupting existing transit operations and our hundreds of thousands of daily riders. An accessible connection to a nearby elevator equipped SEPTA station would make the new intercity bus terminal a true gateway to the city and link intercity bus travelers with neighborhoods, attractions and employment centers throughout our region's robust transit network. Growing up as a transit- dependent Philadelphian, I deeply value affordable regional mobility options like intercity buses. However, the integration into the infrastructure must prioritize safety, minimize congestion and ensure reliability for all transit users. A dedicated intercity bus facility is urgently needed, one that is strategically located to balance operational efficiency, pedestrian safety and connectivity to regional attractions and transit services. Thank you again for the opportunity to testify and we look forward to further collaboration with the city and other stakeholders on this important matter. We're available for questions.
Thank you. I just have one question for you. You talked about the disruption in your operations because of the idling vehicles, rideshare cars, et cetera. Can you just give us in your opinion what type of infrastructure is necessary to handle the pickup and drop-off of the passengers given that you operate a bus system? You have plenty of terminals throughout the city. What type of infrastructure do you think the city should be looking for when looking for a long-term solution?
I think from an operational perspective our businesses are different, where we have a frequency where people -- there's a cadence of people coming in every to minutes, where 8 Councilmember Brooks had talked 9 about laying over places, having 10 long-term waiting areas. I think 11 that's very important, those types 12 of amenities, waiting rooms, 13 security, having places to stow 14 things. 15 I remember being a customer at the Filbert Street Station. They had lockers, things that we generally wouldn't have. So I think areas for them to queue where our folks just kind of line up real quickly, bunch up, get on the bus. They have queuing areas to offload luggage. I think those are the type of amenities that differ from our service to theirs, and that's something they need to consider in their infrastructure. I don't know if, Jody, if you have anything.
Yeah. I would say the same, that our operations, our layover locations are much quicker and need to have that throughput, whereas they tend to sit and they load luggage potentially on both sides, and then you have a lot of the Uber and the Lyfts or friends and family picking up, dropping off, so they definitely need space for parking or for having that moment to pick up your friend's luggage as you take them in a car somewhere else.
Right. It's akin to the airport, the departures and arrivals, how you have that. We don't really have that on our system much.
And how important is access to SEPTA? I know what your answer is probably going to be. But how important is access to SEPTA for those intercity bus riders in order to access the rest of our city?
I think it's major. It's really what makes us a connected city. You wouldn't want to cut off any section of the city. You want to make it equally accessible to everyone. Again, I rode to Bloomsburg University to visit my sister. It's a five-hour trip. I mean, I caught the 47 bus to 8th and Market and walked over. So I understand that a lot of folks that depend on that Greyhound or those intercity bus services depend on us as well. So there has to be a connectivity between those two to have a functional network.
Thank you. You were just talking about the bus. My freshman year in college I went to Kutztown University. I would catch the Bieber bus. Unfortunately, they went bankrupt by 2019, but that was the only bus that got us back and forth, students from Philadelphia, to Kutztown University. And so, without those types of facilities, you know, it has a major disruption on the education of the students of Philadelphia residents to get to some of those Commonwealth university schools. We rely on that. So just wanted to touch on the importance of that. And so, are there any other questions of these witnesses by members of the committee? (No response.)
Seeing none, thank you so much for your testimony here today.
Ms. McDonald, will you please call the next panel to testify.
Professor Joseph Schwieterman, Micah Fiedler and Benjamin She. Professor Schwieterman and Micah Fiedler are joining us virtually.
Yes. Please state your name again and begin your testimony.
Yes. I am Joe Schwieterman. I am a professor at DePaul University in Chicago. I direct urban planning, a thinktank at DePaul. I am also the editor of a national publication called Intercity Bus E-news, which covers the industry as well as having an annual report on intercity bus. I've done (inaudible) for about years, so 4 I spent much of my time as a 5 researcher and policy looking at 6 intercity bus. 7 And I had a chance to 8 visit the Spring Garden location, 9 went through the old terminal many 10 times, so I'm quite familiar with 11 the setting. And for one, I want 12 to say I'm really impressed with 13 the conversation at this hearing 14 about the trade-offs and issues and 15 so forth. So it's gratifying to 16 see a city take it this seriously 17 because it is a major issue. 18 The main thing I want to 19 indicate, I'm going to be brief 20 here, is that the era of privately- run terminals is rapidly ending. And Philadelphia lost of course its private terminal. Chicago is grappling with a similar issue. We're a couple years behind you in terms of the crisis coming to our city. And one by one, local governments, county governments are taking actions to solve this problem. And I just want to point out that all up and down the Northeast corridor, just briefly give some examples: Boston at South Station is kind of a state- run bus terminal right at South Station; New York, the Port Authority is taking action for a brand new Port Authority terminal; in Baltimore, the municipal government, city government worked several years ago with Greyhound to create a terminal south of downtown; and Washington has the Union Station entity providing a quality bus terminal there. So every city that's of size has some governmental leadership in this with a few exceptions we mentioned. And I think Philadelphia was unusual for the private station lasting as long as it did. Just want to give you a couple other examples. Atlanta is really a case example of what a good new terminal can mean. And I encourage the city to go down there to see it. It was built with city support working with the state government right next to the MARTA transit system. And it's like a little miniature airport, you might say, with seats with power outlets and LCD screens above and so forth. Milwaukee -- so almost around the country we're seeing leadership on this issue, but it's sometimes county governments, it's sometimes transit authorities doing leadership. It's sometimes port authorities, but it really is an issue of our time that private bus companies just aren't willing to budget for bus stations, which have generated a lot of property tax liability. So we're seeing not only costs of running the stations, but pretty serious property tax bills over $100,000 in some cases that the industry just can no 10 longer support. The acquisition of Greyhound by Flix has sort of accelerated this, but I commend Philadelphia for just its leadership to study the options and find a solution. So thank you for the chance to testify.
Thank you, Professor. Mr. Fiedler, please state your name and begin with your testimony.
Hi. Thank you for having me. My name is Micah Fiedler. First off, I would like to say thank you for allowing me to speak on this panel. I am a transportation advocate and currently a graduate student in urban planning at Tufts University. Last year I had the privilege of working with activists from all over Philadelphia in our fight for better accommodations at the existing bus pickup location and for a plan to move forward with a long-term solution to the bus terminal issue. Now, I am gratified to see that the City Council is taking the first steps on a long road towards providing proper service for Philadelphia's bus riders. As you heard from Professor Schwieterman before me, the intercity bus industry has continued to grow, even through the bankruptcy of Megabus last year. With rail service continuing on reliability along the Northeast corridor, more and more people are likely to turn to intercity buses to go between New York and D.C. Yet Philadelphia, the central hub of that corridor, is the only major city to not service riders along the line with a proper bus terminal. These facilities provide critical protection from the elements during extreme weather and encourage intermodality between companies and transit modes. A centrally-located well-attended building encourages safe use of the network and can even provide business development opportunities for the surrounding plots. million bus terminal passengers will pass through Philadelphia every year. They should be greeted by more than a curbside. Inspired by this clear need and encouraged by the City Council's initiative, I ran a basic sustainability analysis on potential locations for an intercity bus terminal. That poster you'll see to my right I believe. This analysis looked at the vacant lots and parking lots within the metro area, and greater than based on factors ranging from population density to land value approximations to importantly proximity to critical transit infrastructure such as highways, train stations and other bus stations. For you today I would like to submit this analysis along with a list of the highest scoring plots. You may notice from this analysis that a vast majority of the suitable locations are in Center City. It makes sense. Trust the location as it is the location with the highest transit connectivity in the region and it's bound by two major interstates. The Spring Garden neighborhood shows up twice as does Logan Square. 30th Street Station has two top candidate plots on its own. I ask that you see this analysis as a guide for further feasibility research. I concede that the best terminal location may not be on this list, but the factors that play into this analysis should point you in the right direction towards Center City. Thank you, and I'm available for questions.
Thank you so much, Mr. Fiedler. Mr. She, please state your name and begin with your testimony.
My name is Benjamin She and I'm speaking on by half of myself as a private citizen and not for past and current employers. From 2023 to November 2024, I was with the City's Office of Transportation Infrastructure Systems, OTIS, where I was tasked on managing the transportation and logistics planning for the city's interstate bus terminal, both for the temporary Spring Garden terminal as well for numerous other proposed sites. I worked hand in hand with PPA, Streets and PCPC and also helped facilitate relationships with the interstate bus operators as they navigate the city's permitting and planning process to relocate their bus stops to Spring Garden. I was on the streets every day in the first week putting up the signage, you know, coordinating with ambassadors and doing all that. Planning for and establishing a new interstate bus terminal is a daunting task that few cities have the appetite for but is simply a non-negotiable feature of any major city, period. Philadelphia is at the midway point of the Northeast corridor and also the nexus for travel to the Midwest. In other words, a bus terminal here has built-in growth potential to be a major hub for traffic and already serves as one for many carriers. Interstate bus has reached numerous destinations in PA where now rail or air services do not go and it will not reach any time soon. This includes major cities like Allentown, Reading, Scranton, State College, South Jersey and Delaware. But unlike Amtrak or airports, interstate buses received zero subsidies from the federal government to ensure these critical destinations can continue to be served. The disruption of service to Allentown when Beiber Tourism went bankrupt in 2019, as Councilmember Young mentioned, was a major inconvenience of travelers. The 2026 festivities alone would indeed bring a lot more traffic, but it also requires that physically more space on Spring Garden must be built or else carriers will have no choice but to park in any open curb they can find furthering confusion of riders and angry neighbors. So you know, what would it take to basically stand up a terminal basically in less than a year, right. When you think about the features that it would take to stand this up, you would need around six to eight bus bays, portable toilets, an enclosed waiting area and ticket stall and some security. But all this together would not cost more than maybe $10 million in startup. Indeed many bus companies have experience with starting up this interfacility through portable ticket stands and the like. But any possible plan no 12 matter how cheap requires a strong oversight, coordination, permitting, power and enforcement of the state to ensure this will happen. Without it, any carrier could choose to opt out of the location and go rogue by finding another open curbside space to park their buses. And this activity is still happening occasionally right now and I feel has gone unenforced by PPA and PPD. So my opinion on basically the long-term location, if we want to invest more money past 2026 is the same was as it is now. 30th Street Station is still the best possible site to invest in the future interstate bus terminal. , LA, Pittsburgh and countless other peer cities. The built-in ridership base of the college students in university and long distance computers is unbeatable. In addition, this site was already identified as the best long-term facility in the 2016 30th Street Station District Plan co-written by the City, PennDOT, Amtrak, Drexel and Brandywine Realty Trust as the authoritative master plan to guide the development of the 30th Street district. However, there are also major challenges to the site which require more assistance in political capital than we have seen thus far. The exact site identified in 2016 plan, which is a parking deck next to the (inaudible) center, would likely require structural reinforcement to host multiple buses according to structural plans.
Most daunting is the fact that there are zero land parcel around 30th Street Station owned by local public authorities. Everything there is owned by institutions like Brandywine, Drexel and Amtrak. Talks to simply reopen the curb space on JFK Boulevard to interstate buses were met with large resistance from those institutions, even though the Streets Department does hold the statutory power to regulate curbside space. But none of these obstacles are insurmountable. C. were a decade ago. In my opinion, Philadelphia has a prime opportunity to plan for and finance a permanent terminal on a (inaudible) Center parking deck. The City has many bargaining chips available to get the institutions back to the table. The most powerful which is the keystone opportunity zone designation that was set over years ago by the 16 City and state at 30th Street lots. 17 With the exposure 18 development in Schuylkill Yards, it 19 already benefits these same 20 stakeholders. KOZ has already done its job at 30th Street, especially with (inaudible) reduction in BRT and wage tax. The future of KOZ should be called into the question. The next evolution for the district should be improving critical infrastructure like bus terminals using tax increment financing to get there. Having this local base of funding allows us to apply for federal grants from the Department of Transportation like the (inaudible) grant, with a very strong application in order to see this terminal become reality. All this can be done a lot sooner than one might think but requires a strong and dedicated City Hall to get there. Thank you.
Thank you so much for your testimony. I do have a question for Professor Schwieterman, if you're still on. Can you talk to us about what other cities -- I mean, you mentioned that other cities are moving away from the private model and beginning to own these assets. Can you talk to us about how these assets have become revenue generating for the cities and how the cities are able to keep the operations of these facilities going?
Yeah, really good question. And the typical way, kind of two models, in some cases they find a private operator to manage the terminal with a lease and their concession fees can come from food service and other things. The usual method to generate revenue is to charge buses, either per bus departure scaled by the size of the bus, you know, so a 54-seat bus would be a different fee than a smaller van. Sometimes they're scaled to per departure or per passenger. So it would be kind of like an airport arrangement where it's paid per passenger. There might be still some subsidy involved for some cities. That's being looked at in Chicago, for example. If we had a public terminal, it could pay for itself. There is a lot of activity in Philadelphia. The analysis I did in January showed there's 56 daily buses from Philadelphia to New York during the slow season. So you can look at those kind of fees. An example could be, you know, $40 per bus departure as a fee and that can help generate some pretty good revenue.
Thank you. When you mentioned these types of fees, how are they -- I guess I'm trying to figure out we have different municipal authorities, like you said, port authorities and things like that that run some of the facilities. In your opinion, is it better for the municipality itself to run the facility or is it to put that off on a third party authority?
Well, I do think bus stations need to be seen as regional assets, and that's the case we're trying to make here in Chicago, that this is not just a Chicago problem. The station serves everybody. Of course, like Philadelphia International Airport I believe that's a city entity, but it clearly has a regional role. So I think it's reasonable to expect a region to help pay for a bus terminal, but the politics of that can be difficult. We do see Port Authority of New York as a perfect institution because they have a long history of providing transportation services for the full region. But another case of this, the city government taking the lead, and I think they can often move more quickly than when you have sort of city suburban collaborations.
Thank you. One last question for you. Have you seen any federal grant dollars out there for this type of infrastructure development for municipalities or authorities?
Yeah, we have. We've seen Washington kind of wake up to this and see that we have to sort of get over this hang-up that we don't want to subsidize a private business, which was often sort of a fallback position that people have. And I think people now see that inter city bus really is alone and having to fight for itself for terminals, so we have public involvement in rail and in air, airports are heavily get planning support from cities. And so, I think those barriers have fallen. And there's been changes to some of the federal funding guidance to loosen up about that and to push public transit operators to be more accommodating to intercity buses, you know, public transit terminals too. So the momentum is on the bus industry side, but the clock is ticking in a lot of cases.
Thank you so much. Are there any other questions of these witnesses on this panel? Chair recognizes Councilmember Phillips.
I just want to briefly say that I'm glad that Planning Development is still here. Kathleen and John are still here, hopefully here for rest of the hearing because Micah has presented potential sites. I think he needs to be on your planning team. And not only that, hopefully he can help you figure out how to expedite this study. So come to Philadelphia, Micah. We need you. Thank you.
Thank 10 you, Councilmember Phillips. 11 Are there any other 12 questions for members of this 13 panel? 14 (No response.) 15
16 Mr. She, I do have one question for 17 you. You mentioned 30th Street and 18 you heard the Professor's comment about how there's a trend to move more toward municipal or authority ownership. But you talked about the KOZ and those opportunities. Just in your experience, can you just tell us how can our city benefit by having this intercity bus terminal at 30th Street being managed or owned by the land by a private industry versus the City of Philadelphia?
Absolutely. I think that it's a great location, but I do recognize the challenge that literally the City has no 10 stake in any parcels right now. It's all Drexel, Brandywine, Amtrak. And those relationships, right, has always been on an as-needed basis instead of sort of being, you know, very proactive. I would say that the 2016 33th Street plan really already set the groundwork to at least talk about a bus station there. And as far as I know, they're still publicly committed to that. And so, I think that a great intermediary would be the Parking Authority actually, you know, as an authority that has leverage to go after acquisition of parcels for their interests and for their purposes, right. They could also do the same thing here and apply sort of their policies and their statutory power as an intermediary. And then you could do something like a ground lease, right, with the City or any other financing technique that really could help sort of at least build that sort of statutory fee on the buses, right, but then also have that financing power in place so that we can all work hand in hand with the existing institutions we have and we don't have to reinvent the wheel here. I think the Parking Authority does show promise in that model, I think.
Thank you so much. Are there any other questions of these witnesses for this panel? (No response.)
Seeing none, I want to thank you all for your testimony, particularly those joining us virtually. Thank you so much for taking the interest in the City of Philadelphia. I really appreciate that.