Okay. So your testimony in response to my question is: Essentially, you have a partnership either at a personal level or a professional level, you may have some contracts flowing back and forth, but you have no power and authority over PENNDOT and what they do and how they do it. COMMISSIONER MOY: That's true.
Now, with regard to the matter that was discussed earlier and a particular highway which, I guess, is generally referred to as "a bridge" in my district, of which you are very familiar, there has occurred the issue of the condition of the surface of that particular bridge. You have informed me and, I believe, others by way of letter of who has the responsibility for that bridge, which is PENNDOT, and I believe what you referred to in your engineering language as the "bituminous surface." COMMISSIONER MOY: That's correct.
Generally referred to, I guess, as the roadway or asphalt or 1287 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. something like that. In response to Council President Street earlier in the 15th Street example, you laid out that if a particular condition existed and if it were deemed by various parties to possibly be an emergency, you have certain protocols in relationship with PENNDOT that allow for work to be done. Is that correct? COMMISSIONER MOY: Yes.
Okay. And in this particular case, if we were to decide that, notwithstanding the responsibility -- and clear responsibility -- of PENNDOT in the case of this particular roadway, highway, or bridge, if the work is not being done in a timely nature that would provide for the future safety of any citizen crossing that particular highway or bridge, could a decision be made to make that roadway safer? COMMISSIONER MOY: I think that's possible. We obviously would meet with PENNDOT and use whatever alternatives would be available to us to persuade them to make it safe on their own.
I understand that. 1288 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. But if they are recalcitrant or their usual reluctant selves, we could make a decision to go forward to take care of a situation that an average individual might think could be made more safe. COMMISSIONER MOY: We would be very careful in that because it would probably be over the opposition of our lawyer -- of our Council. But that's possible, certainly.
Okay. Well, you don't know this, but while you were responding to other questions, I have had some contact with the Law Department. What I would like to ask you to do is to go back and talk to the Law Department in light of the current situation that is hanging over the Streets Department's head. But as the Councilperson for the district and a person who rides that particular roadway, I would like you to figure out a way to resurface and make more safe that particular area as soon as possible, notwithstanding the problems that we have with PENNDOT. Secondly, with the help and support of 1289 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. Councilman DiCicco, I think we do need to get to the bottom of the nature of the response time from PENNDOT on their State-mandated roadways. And so I think that we should have our Streets and Services Committee engage in a hearing process to either engage Secretary Mallory or I believe our local District representative is the Honorable Andrew Warren? COMMISSIONER MOY: That's correct.
Have them come in and explain to us and to the citizens of this City what they plan to do and how they plan to do it, to take care of their highways. Would you engage in that process with us? COMMISSIONER MOY: I certainly would, Councilman.
Okay. And you'll work on the particular roadway, or bridge, in question? COMMISSIONER MOY: I will do that, also.
Thank you. In the testimony, Commissioner -- and this is, I know, 1290 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. not our capital budget time, but we didn't discuss it during capital budget -- I notice that there apparently is no designation of funding for 15-mile-an-hour flashing lights in your budget. COMMISSIONER MOY: That's right.
How do you plan to carry the program forward? COMMISSIONER MOY: It's my understanding that the commitment, the arrangements that had been made -- and you may have been a principal here -- when the program was initially developed was that the City would advance the first funding for that, which we've done, and that Council would come up with the remaining funding.
Okay. I just want to make sure we're still on the same page with that. There's been a lot of discussion about street lights. And I know you and Councilman Mariano engaged in a wide-ranging discussion about that. You may also be aware that sometime last year, City Council did pass a resolution 1291 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. asking for the Administration and directly the Streets Department to take a look at creating programs that would result in, for lack of better terms, a somewhat brighter Philadelphia at night, utilizing the Center City model or the U-C-Bright Program out in West Philadelphia. It is a fact that in some areas throughout the City -- and certainly there are areas in the district that I represent -- it is clearly not as bright as it should be. And I'm not talking about lights that are out. These are lights that are on. But in most of our City neighborhoods, the cobra-type lighting, one, naturally, is only on one side of the street in many areas. And we have seen upgraded lighting programs specifically here in Center City, which, I know, the Streets Department had some participation in, where there's lighting on both sides of the street. And it really does dramatically improve the walkways and the roadways for lighting out there. I think as we go forward, in addition to more energy-efficient lighting that you are 1292 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. putting out and the brighter bulbs, I don't think we can dismiss the notion that lighting on both sides of the street has to be better than lighting on one side of the street. And I think part of -- I haven't talked to the Councilman, but I think what we may have been talking about is in those instances, it is virtually impossible to get additional lighting, not replacement for what exists. And we believe in replacing what exists. But if we're talking about the other side of the street, one where there are no poles, that you could quickly attach a cobra to. But how we brighten Philadelphia, I think, really is the main concern of a lot of people out there. This, naturally, would require additional funding, and I'm working on some infrastructures here with the City, but I think we'd like to have from you a plan and a program going forward that would, in fact, result in additional lighting out on the street; and for the moment, have you do it, notwithstanding costs or a whole host of other factors. And could you work on a plan like 1293 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. that? COMMISSIONER MOY: We certainly could.
Okay. Commissioner, I think that is all I have. Maybe one last quick recycling question, which has more to do with the schedule. And I know from time to time, you put out calendars. I've seen, I guess, six-month calendars, nine-month calendars. And if I could ever really remember whether I was in the blue area or the green area, I'd actually get it out on the right day. I was sharing with Councilwoman Clark that I actually depend on my next-door neighbor, who is much more attuned to the recycling cycle than I am. But to the extent that you could keep that information coming, I will certainly do my best, at least for the district, to get it out to the people and any other means that you have to let people know both what areas they're in and what the schedule is. And I know sometimes the stuff has come in a form that you can magnetize to your refrigerator or wherever you want to put it. It seems to me people really do want to 1294 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. participate. And I've seen people seem very disappointed, I guess, when they miss their day. They do want to get this stuff out, but sometimes -- unlike trash, which is once a week -- it's on the same day, and you can get lost a little in the two-week cycle. Naturally, that would be solved if you went to once a week, but that might be a fiscal problem. COMMISSIONER MOY: Right.
Okay, thanks, Commissioner. COMMISSIONER MOY: All right.
Thank you, Madame Chair. Commissioner, how are you today? COMMISSIONER MOY: Fine, just fine.
The trash trucks that you have in your fleet, what percentage of 1295 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. them are too old and should be replaced, and how much would it cost to replace them? COMMISSIONER MOY: We have about 273 vehicles total in our fleet, and they vary in age from 1987 through 1997.
So nothing is older than ten years? COMMISSIONER MOY: There are some, yes. There's about 64 vehicles, which is about 11 percent, I guess, of that number that are 1987 12 vehicles. 13
Is ten years 14 considered old in the life of a trash tuck? 15 COMMISSIONER MOY: Depending -- yes, 16 depending on the level of maintenance that these 17 vehicles receive. I think that begins to get to 18 the edge of their life cycle. 19 But I think Fleet Management has been 20 able in some cases to renew and rehabilitate some 21 of these older vehicles. 22
So none of them 23 are junk? COMMISSIONER MOY: No, I would say they're not junk, certainly. 1296 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT.
They are all operational; and to the greatest degree possible, consistent with their age, have served you well? COMMISSIONER MOY: That's true.
What percentage of them do you expect to replace? COMMISSIONER MOY: I think this is something that we work with Fleet Management on, and I don't know whether they've had an opportunity to testify yet, but they, in fact, control the purchase and renewal of our fleet.
Let me go the other way, Mr. Moy. Can you not hear me? You can't hear me? (Councilwoman Clark adjusts microphone.)
The performance of your organization is not hampered by the size or the condition of your fleet; is that what you're saying to me? COMMISSIONER MOY: I would say the 1297 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. performance is very -- the condition of the fleet is very important to us. And we've been working very closely with Fleet Management to give them our needs, and they've been responsive to our needs. They've been giving us what we need on a daily basis.
But, Mr. Moy, I now ask you a yes-or-no question. This is a friendly interchange. COMMISSIONER MOY: Okay.
Okay? Is the performance of your Department hampered by the size and condition of your fleet? That's a yes-or-no question. COMMISSIONER MOY: You mean given the fleet today? The answer is yes, we do well with it. The answer is yes. In other words -- I'm sorry. The answer is, we're not hampered, we're not hampered by it. I'm sorry.
So, yes, we're doing fine with the equipment that we have? 1298 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. COMMISSIONER MOY: That's correct.
Okay. So that if you have an orderly process by which you replace trucks, and you are not dissatisfied with what Fleet Management has in place, your problem is not your equipment. COMMISSIONER MOY: No. 9
Your problem is not your equipment. COMMISSIONER MOY: At the present time, the problem is not our equipment, no. 13
All right. So you don't need any money for equipment, any additional money over and above that which you've already asked for. COMMISSIONER MOY: Actually, the equipment would come out of Fleet Management's; it would not come out of our budget.
So you don't care how much we give Fleet Management. COMMISSIONER MOY: Fleet Management is to purchase equipment.
All right, Mr. Moy, I can't give you a straighter line than, can 1299 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. I? COMMISSIONER MOY: (Laughs.)
Can I give you a straighter line than that? COMMISSIONER MOY: No. We very much need, Fleet Management, we need the new equipment.
All right. The reason I'm asking you this is because the entire City is fine, and one of the advantages that we have in living in North Philadelphia is that we have twice-a-week trash pickup. See, somebody's going to say "boo" to that. But if you had more -- one of the reasons that we have twice-a-week trash pickup in North Philadelphia is that we have high population density. We have a low-economic income level and we're poor people. And that's why we have it, isn't it Mr. Moy? COMMISSIONER MOY: It's true.
Right. And the rest of the people are too rich to have it. No, I'm only kidding, I'm only kidding. Can the Members of Council access some of the geographical information used by your 1300 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. Department? If so, which services? And if not, how long can it be before -- I don't even understand that question myself, Mr. Moy, disregard that. COMMISSIONER MOY: Okay.
Where were we going with that? I want to spend just one minute on your street-cleaning plan. Please explain what you mean when you say that once a comprehensive neighborhood street-cleaning plan is developed, you will meet with the Council to discuss it. Because we are in the process Citywide of cleaning up Philadelphia. How will City Council members know when you're going to be doing the comprehensive cleanup in their area? COMMISSIONER MOY: Actually, I believe that testimony may have been written prior to the resolution that Councilman Kenney and, I know, a number of other Members of Council sponsored there. And we would expect in the near future to be talking with representatives of Council about the plan, about the cleaning plan.
Is it your 1301 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. ultimate objective to clean every neighborhood? COMMISSIONER MOY: We would like to do that. Now, what we need to do is work with Council on how that can be done effectively.
How do you determine, without talking directly to Council, which areas urgently require cleaning? Do you have a vacant-lot cleaning program? COMMISSIONER MOY: We, the Department of Streets, do not have a vacant-lot cleaning program.
Who does? COMMISSIONER MOY: I think you can talk with L&I about if there are private lots, privately owned lots. Our responsibility is more onto the public streets, and we have programs to deal with that.
Who cleans, besides major streets like Roosevelt Boulevard or the Expressway, who cleans those? When people fling bags of trash out their window, what happens there, who takes care of that? COMMISSIONER MOY: Well, on limited- access facilities, they're -- PENNDOT is 1302 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. responsible for the cleaning of the I-95 and expressways, the Schuylkill Expressway, the Woodhaven Road.
Do you call them or do they do it by their own orders? COMMISSIONER MOY: They have regular maintenance. I believe most of it's contract. I think they have maintenance contracts with vendors to clean those facilities.
All right. I yield back the balance of my time, Madame Chair.
Thank you, Councilwoman. The Chair recognizes Councilwoman Fernandez.
Thank you, Madame Chair, I just want to follow up on (inaudible/off mike).
I wanted to follow up on this whole issue of how we can get our neighborhoods cleaner, and there was a question asked earlier about the Sweep Program. 1303 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. And I guess I was puzzled as to why this past year you said you focussed more on education rather than citations. That in 1997, FY '97, you issued and a half thousand citations, 6 with revenues of 850,000; compared to 22,877 7 citations, with revenues of 1.1 million the year 8 before, in FY '96. 9 At least my experience with some of the 10 traffic enforcement or illegal sales of tobacco, 11 it's citations that get people's attention. So 12 I'm really puzzled as to why you didn't issue as many citations for FY '97. You said in FY '98, you expect to issue 18,000 citations. COMMISSIONER MOY: And your question is, why isn't it more? Is that what --
Well, why did you not issue as many citations in FY '97? It's both a decrease in income. And I think, after all this time, citations are probably the best way to get people's attention. COMMISSIONER MOY: I think it depends on where we addressed -- where we focussed our attention. And I think that effort -- many of 1304 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. those sweep people were focussing on education first, and then, you know, giving them warning and then going after them with the citations. As you may recollect, the intent of the Sweep Program was not to be generating revenues as a main goal; it was primarily to get compliance. Now, what we're doing is the one, two steps of educating and then going after them with tightening up on, you know, we've told, we've told you, and now we're going to write you up. So the citations are partly a result of that. An increase in citations are a result of that approach.
Well, do you have any evidence if this education is working, this education approach? And where were you going that people didn't know that they're supposed to keep their trash -- like this morning, coming out of my house on Pearl Street, right behind our house, this huge Dumpster was just overflowing with trash all over the place. It's not like -- and I know people have known about Sweep and getting citations now for 1305 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. what, three, four years, five years? COMMISSIONER MOY: Right. What we've been doing, as you can see, though, is we have been addressing corridors and building (unintelligible) each year. And this year, it's going to be five more corridors, because we in fact do think that it has some impact. If you look at some of the -- and we can give you a list of the corridors, if you'd like, that we have -- commercial corridors that we have addressed and take a look and see how responsive those folks are, we get compliance from those corridors. And then we feel we can move on to other corridors throughout the City. And there will be five more this year.
Well, I would respectfully submit that you really, really need to be tough with these citations. Again, it's been a long-standing problem with Dumpsters overflowing in neighborhoods, just trash goes all over the place. It takes a lot of time and energy to clean it up. 1306 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. So I would urge you to be doing both. I think in a lot of programs it's the education with tough enforcement. And, again, people should have gotten the message by now. COMMISSIONER MOY: Okay.
The other thing is -- back to the Philadelphia More Beautiful. I notice that you are increasing their allocation by $22,000. What do you expect to happen as a result of that? Because I think, as we brought up in the capital budget hearings, the fact is that baskets and brooms and bags are not readily available to whatever neighborhood group wants to clean up. So what do you expect to do with that extra $22,000? COMMISSIONER MOY: Well, first of all, $22,000 is not a lot of money when it comes to the needs of cleaning. This PMBC has not had an increase in many, many years. This is kind of an effort to just increase the availability for materials and supplies and promotional things to make their program more effective. 1307 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. We have a discrete number in terms of what we can make available for bags and materials throughout the entire City. I mean, we have 200,000 bags, I think it is, or something like that, which we provide, which is a lot of bags, and we try and work largely through the PMBC program.
Well, maybe it's exactly that mentality that sort of bothers me. Again, neighborhood people are willing to get out and use brooms and fill up bags of trash, they're willing to monitor the basket on the corner. In other words, the citizens are doing all the -- basically all the work. They're volunteering their time. So I think it's penny-wise and pound- foolish to say we don't have enough bags, we don't have enough brooms, we don't have enough baskets in a -- how big is your department, it's how many millions of dollars? COMMISSIONER MOY: Well, 120 million or so.
Okay, in a $120 million budget, where half of your 1308 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. responsibility at least is having a clean city, I do not think that's a time to be penny-wise and pound-foolish. So I would like to have any neighborhood group call Philadelphia More Beautiful and say, Yes, here's your bags, your brooms, your baskets. If you need them, we're here to serve you. And then I'd like to suggest that you come back to Council and get more money if that's not enough. Because, again, why should we, you know, be breaking our necks in neighborhoods, willing to get out there and clean up, and then someone says, Oh, we don't have enough money in this size budget for some bags and some brooms. So I feel strongly about this, and I hope you'll really rethink your approach and think of how you can be there as an active partner working with neighborhoods who want to clean up their neighborhoods. COMMISSIONER MOY: We will look into that, Councilwoman.
Thank you. The Chair recognizes Councilman Rizzo. 1309 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT.
Thank you, Madame Chair. Commissioner, our relationship with PENNDOT's that good. I think westbound, in Montgomery, there's been a truck tire laying up against a center medial for about three weeks now. That leads me to my question that the public doesn't know PENNDOT from -- when they drive through the expressway, they criticize the City of Philadelphia for a dirty roadway. So I'd appreciate it if you would let the Chair know the schedule, the maintenance schedule. Because the roadway is dirty, and I have people that visit the City say, Why don't you guys take care of your roadways? And then I try to explain to them the bureaucracy about PENNDOT and who does what. And, you know, it gets exhausting after a while. Possibly on the same plate, we should maybe know what that PENNDOT maintenance schedule is. Is it satisfactory, do they do it once a month that? That tire, a truck tire has been sitting on the medial strip at Montgomery now for, 1310 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. it has to be, without exaggeration, three weeks. And I've called it in twice to get it removed. Because it's not a hazard, it's just dirty. So I really think that we need to beef up our relationship with PENNDOT. That leads me to -- I want to follow up on the fact that Councilman Nutter identified the problem that I was referring to when I had my conversation with you earlier. So I would like also to be included in any correspondence in reference to that location and whether or not you will resurface that roadway until that bridge is repaired. In the 02, I believe it's going to go under extensive renovations. But for this period, really, we need to do something. So anything that you do, I'd like to be in the loop on that. COMMISSIONER MOY: All right.
Your earlier answer to the question that there were no speed bumps in the City of Philadelphia, I'd like to know because when you talk about traffic-calming devices, if you wanted to put a speed bump on a City street, is it legal? 1311 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. COMMISSIONER MOY: It's clearly not legal. And PENNDOT's requirements are when you come in to a residential street, there would be a question more of a policy there. And our policy is that they are not good, prudent tools for the traffic-calming. And the concerns, some of the concerns we would have would be that the bumps themselves cause problems not only to the motorist, but to bicycles, motorcycles, your plowing vehicles. There's a whole series of problems that that particular solution causes. So we have refrained from using that as a calming tool.
The reason for my question is, I've just traveled to Montgomery County, and I noticed that -- not speed bumps, but they had depressions cut in the roadway, especially in areas that were severe turns, obviously areas of excessive speed and numerous accidents. They didn't have speed bumps; they had basically the roadway cut out at maybe ten-foot intervals that -- like more so like when you get 1312 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. to the bridge and, you know, the ripples in the road, but they were depressions. So, obviously, if Montgomery's in the State of Pennsylvania and Philadelphia's in the State of Pennsylvania and they're utilizing those techniques there, maybe we should be looking at some of these traffic-calming devices. They might not be speed bumps, but there are certainly ways to let vehicular traffic know that maybe exceeding the speed -- something's up ahead of you, so you better pay attention and obviously slow down. So have you explored that? And I know that, you know, there was a committee hearing in reference to traffic-calming. I wasn't available for that. But have any of those techniques been utilized to slow vehicular traffic? COMMISSIONER MOY: Yes, as a matter of fact, we have. Beyond the committee hearing, we've met with Councilman DiCicco and Councilwoman Fernandez on this subject. And we reviewed some of the tools and techniques that have been used over the past few years by the traffic group. They've included the 1313 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. conversion to the four-way stops, which has been effective, and, you know, converting traffic signals over to four-way stops, among other things. And we also have the bicycle lanes, which you've seen installed in many locations, which have proven very effective in slowing traffic. It narrows the laneage (sic) available, you know, for people. So instead of riding two lanes and trying to pass on the right or whatever they're doing, they actually are following the lines and slowing down in terms of their behavior on many of the streets. We built up bump-outs and certain configurations of curb lines throughout the streets in the City, which help shorten the -- well, it reduces the roadway, it improves the -- it diminishes the distance for the pedestrian crossing. So they are some of the tools that we have. We're continuing to look at other techniques. We have --
Specifically, Commissioner, what I just described I experienced 1314 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. in Montgomery County. Have you or your Department, experienced or investigated utilizing those similar-cut perforations across the roadway at 10-, 15-foot intervals to slow traffic? COMMISSIONER MOY: Every one of those techniques has a trade-off. We -- our people -- our folks are investigating a number of those things. Rumble strips, for example, when you put them at a certain frequency, while they may have an effect of slowing people, they also produce noise, which some neighborhoods then come back with a backlash on. Nationally, the efforts that people have advanced throughout residential areas, there's not a clear answer because what happens is, they try it, one group wants it, and then six months later, they begin to pick up noise from the other side that wants them to take some of these things out. But our folks have attended seminars and have been keeping up with what is being done nationally.
All I can tell you, 1315 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. Commissioner, is that the intent that those strips that I've identified worked. They got my attention quickly, it alerted me that there was something ahead, even though I wasn't exceeding the limit -- by much -- that the devices worked to slow me down. And, again, they had a very positive effect on me as a driver. My last question, Commissioner, is that I've had this conversation with you before. Commissioner, we get letters, we get phone calls about missing stop signs, missing speed limit signs -- you name it, we get calls about it -- faded lane markings throughout the City of Philadelphia. Commissioner, again, are there people within the Streets Department that physically go and look for these deficiencies? Because as a Member of City Council, when I report a stop sign laying over on the sidewalk, and I noticed it maybe two or three days before, and finally get to the point where I report it myself, I'm the first person to report it. Commissioner, I appeal to you to look 1316 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. for an existing body in the Streets Department that goes into the Councilmatic districts and looks for the things that people call our office to explain about. You know, I can't imagine that a Member of City Council would be the first person to call about a stop sign that's laying across a sidewalk and it's been there for two weeks. How many people from the Streets Department rode by that same sign and didn't proactively report it? So I'm appealing to you to have the people in the Streets Department look for these deficiencies so that we don't get letters, we don't get phone calls -- not that that's a problem, but it's kind of embarrassing when we have a big government like this not identifying the problems and we have to rely on citizens to call. COMMISSIONER MOY: Well, I don't disagree with you that we should -- we're trying to get as many eyes and ears out there to report problems, as possible, including our -- certainly, our employees. And we will continue to, you know, urge reports from whomever is patroling streets 1317 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. there, to report the kind of conditions you're talking about.
Great. Thanks, Commissioner. COMMISSIONER MOY: You're welcome.
I appreciate all you do. Thank you, Madame Chair, I am completed.
Thank you. The Chair recognizes Councilwoman Fernandez.
May I follow up? There was a misleading part of the record following that interchange. Could I just --
Just the one statement, and then we'll recognize you later.
Yeah. I would like to make the record very clear. In the hearings we held on traffic-calming, there was no 22 request from any of the Councilpeople that the Department look into traffic humps -- excuse me, traffic bumps. There was a long discussion about 1318 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. traffic humps, which are much longer. They do not jar the car and potentially cause accidents. There was testimony in those hearings that New York City has put in 120 traffic humps to slow traffic down. And it's my understanding in the follow-up meeting that the Commissioner had with Councilman DiCicco and I, you said your Department would be willing to consider piloting and working with Councilpeople who want to try traffic humps. So I think it was a serious omission on the part of the Commissioner not to distinguish between a traffic bump and a traffic hump or a traffic table. So I want the record to be very clear. We were requesting, and you have agreed to explore using traffic humps in neighborhoods where there are serious problems with speeding cars and where it is not cost-effective to think you're going to have a cop out there stopping speeding vehicles, but would make this adjustment to the roadway to give a clear signal. As Councilman Rizzo noted, it's a way to clearly warn motorists, You better slow down, 1319 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. you have to slow down because this is an intersection or an area or a neighborhood where people do not want you to go speeding through. So am I correct? That's what you agreed to? COMMISSIONER MOY: That's what we agreed to, Councilwoman.
Mr. Moy, let me ask one brief question. Then I have some other questions about the -- oh, on the street lighting program, I notice in your testimony that you -- it is a ten-year program? When the contract -- was there one contract left for the street lighting program in 19 -- I think it was 1992, or is that put out for bid every year? COMMISSIONER MOY: That's a combination of things. It's a series of contracts that are used to install the group replacement lighting 1320 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. program. But in addition to that, we also use some City forces to do that. But it's sort of on an annual basis. And I think it's up to an 11-year program at the present time.
But do you bid it each year? COMMISSIONER MOY: Yes, it's bid each year.
Okay. When the cost was initially determined, was there an escalating cost for increase in doing this included in the budget? Because as we -- as we deal with -- my experience in the Recreation Department has been that you can appropriate money for the construction of a recreation facility this year. By the next year, when it gets to bid, there's not enough money and the bid comes in higher. And so each year you're trying to play catchup. And the reason I ask this question is because street lighting is very important to me because we get a lot of requests for it. And I bought into this program when I was asked to vote 1321 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. for it in the budget, because I thought it would -- and I believed it would cover street lighting throughout the City of Philadelphia. And the reason I ask if there's enough money in the budget -- or have you increased the money each year to cover the cost to fund the program that was presented to City Council? Or will we run into the same kind of problem that we run into with the alley lights, that the money has run out? COMMISSIONER MOY: Well, each year, we do ask Council for an additional amount of money to cover that next year's funding. So the answer is, we will build each year's inflation into that request. So you will get an opportunity every year to vote on the program. So, for example, this year, in the capital program, we had a specific line item for that.
The other question I have is, I introduced a resolution to hold hearings based on the Philadelphia Code -- where's my stuff? -- to permit the City to move -- to repair driveways and retaining walls. And it is 1322 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. provided for in the Code. We get, I think, almost as many requests for that as we do street lightings or traffic stop signs. But to my knowledge, that law is not enforced, and could you tell me why? Because the Code doesn't -- COMMISSIONER MOY: Let me understand.
Because the code doesn't -- COMMISSION MOY: We're bound by the law, which, as I would see it, driveways and alleys and retaining walls are the responsibility of the property-owner. I don't think that we've have legislation that has altered that.
You should have your staff read Philadelphia Code, Section 11-506, where the City's authorized to do the work at the expense of the owners. If the group can't get together and the neighbors can't agree on how they're paying for the driveway, the City has the right and the power to do it and assess them or lien them. And it has been done in the past, and the neighbors know it has been done in the past. 1323 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. And all the people that have asked me about this want to know why has that stopped, why can't it be done, don't mind paying for the work. But what happens is there's not a hundred percent participation. So they need a mechanism where the work gets done, the City even contracts to do it, but all of the homeowners are billed or liened for that work. And there's also a provision in the Code where the Health Department can condemn the driveway or retaining wall if it adversely affects the public health and welfare. COMMISSIONER MOY: Yes, I'm familiar with that, with those provisions of the Code, and we do have a mechanism to meet with the community. And if you'll identify for us those locations, we'll send people out, which will counsel the community on all the things that they can do or should do.
They know what they should do. COMMISSIONER MOY: Right.
The problem we've 1324 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. had is getting the Streets Department to do what they can do. COMMISSIONER MOY: Okay.
We get, We can't do that, the City no longer does that. But it's provided in the Code that you can do it. The people know it, we don't want any more meetings. All I want to know is if your Department is going to enforce that portion of the Code that gives you the authority to go in and repair a retaining wall or repair a driveway. Which, by the way, the City trash trucks used to pick up trash, adding to the destruction of the driveways. COMMISSIONER MOY: Two things. With respect to the contract, I believe that the response is based upon is when the City has advertised most recently -- and I don't know how long this has been -- and has given the contractors the bills to collect here, which is the mechanism that has been used in the past to fund these, there are no contractors willing to accept that any longer. It used to be ten, twenty, perhaps 1325 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. twenty years ago that that was a practice that they followed, where they would take assessable bills and they would take that as payment. What I think that these folks may be hearing now is -- our Highways people are, no 7 doubt, saying that the contractors are not willing to accept that as a means of payment any longer. So we need to find -- we would have to find other means to pay for a contract like that.
If the City said that they're going to pave the driveway or repair a retaining wall and everybody in that block impacted would be assessed, they'd have to pay and if not they're, property would be liened. You would get better cooperation than a group of -- the block association trying to do it because there's no enforcement mechanism from the block association. So for a short period of time, I mean, the City has the ability to lien the property, and you just hold the lien. And I would think that you will probably have a greater participation. And if everybody -- we could set up a mechanism where we 1326 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. got 75 percent of the people, 80 percent of the people that agree to it, then the City will repair it and lien everybody who -- those people who don't pay. COMMISSIONER MOY: Well, we could pursue alternative funding mechanisms, but that would be --
Well, we're going to have hearings, so we can talk about that when we have the hearings. COMMISSIONER MOY: Right.
What happened to the pilot trash program with the Cans on Wheels, trash Cans on Wheels? DEPT. COMM. TOLSON: That program is still in place.
Beg your pardon? You had a pilot program where -- COMMISSIONER MOY: You have to identify yourself for the record. DEPT. COMM. TOLSON: Clarena Tolson. That program is still in place.
Are you still -- because a part of the program was done in my 1327 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. district. People call me and want to know, Well, why don't we have those trash cans like they have on the far end of the 50th Ward? DEPT. COMM. TOLSON: Right.
Are you going to just have a pilot -- have the program just in certain sections of the City, or a little bit in each part of the City, or are you going to have a systematic way of implementing the program throughout the City? DEPT. COMM. TOLSON: Right. The intent of that program was to try to get people to containerize their waste and beautify the community, and also create some efficiencies for ourselves so we could decrease our crew size by one person. It was also a waste-minimization effort because all waste was supposed to go into that one container. However, we had a very difficult time, and we were not successful in getting people to use only the tilter as their waste container. What the tilter became was just an extra trash can or a bigger trash can versus the only trash can that people use. 1328 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. In other communities, in suburban areas where there is a container like the tilter container that we use, that's the sole receptacle for people's trash, and a truck comes by with an automatic lift and dumps all of the trash from the container into the truck. However, our response was mixed in that, one, we had a large number of people who felt that the container was a nice receptacle so they put out more trash than they normally did. In addition, they put trash alongside it so that it still required our laborers to have to dump trash. As well as those who did not want to participate because of the inconvenience that they felt they had from a large container being outside their home. Our neighborhoods are not homogenous, so the fact that we had people who were bringing containers down inclines or didn't have space in their driveway to put it because they had put up a cyclone fence or they had a garden or whatever led to the choice by some to not participate and to use their regular can. So given that mixed response, it did 1329 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. not go well for us. We have been evaluating if it's worth our trying a fully automated system wherein people would have to put everything in the container. However, if we were to do that, we'd also have to require everybody in the test area to participate because they would not be able to get their trash collected otherwise. So it's under evaluation, and we're not moving forward swiftly on that program. But those are the results that we received from the tilter thus far.
Thank you, Madame Chair. The Partnership Recycling Program is a successful community-based program. It is a program that allows thousands of citizens to recycle plastics, clothing, mixed paper, etc. And in some cases, some communities earn income for 1330 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. projects in their neighborhoods. Where are we in the program as it relates to funding in Fiscal Year '99? Are we funding that program? COMMISSIONER MOY: Yes, we --
Are we fully funding it? COMMISSIONER MOY: We're fully funding that program. As a matter of fact, I believe there's an incremental increase that we're anticipating for the coming year.
Okay. Last year, you informed this Council -- and I believe I posed the question, and this follows up on a question that was asked earlier by Councilwoman Clark. And I had asked the question about a Citywide program with a regular street-cleaning program. 'Cause I know you did one in South Philadelphia, in the Queen Village section. And I believe at the time, you indicated that you were preparing a plan that would be presented to Council. How much closer are we to that plan this year than we were last year? 1331 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. COMMISSIONER MOY: We do have a listing of some of the candidate locations, Councilman, that we would be happy to share with you, in the next -- you know, as we meet with this group. We did lose some personnel, some broom drivers, and we're going to be filling them, which will help us. I think this --
I know we're going to be doing one in a couple weeks on South Broad Street. Councilwoman Verna and I arranged to do something there. But I'm looking at the bigger picture, on the Citywide. And I thought last year that we were supposedly getting close last year, and I'm wondering where we are this year. And I heard you indicate earlier that you were working on a plan to present to us. How much closer to that plan? COMMISSIONER MOY: I think we need to talk with you about some of these corridors, because each of them requires considerable resources as you begin to multiply the Queen Village project there. But we do have a series of corridors which we'd like to talk to you about. 1332 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT.
Okay. And just one other question. This has been something that's on my mind because I'm one of those fanatical people, I guess, that walks the streets and picks up paper and puts it in a bag on a daily basis. But trash containers, sort of a follow-up to, I guess, Councilwoman Tasco's question. Trash containers, the 32-gallon rubber drums or whatever, is there any thought given to whether that would be more appropriate Citywide to use containers as opposed to just the typical bag that, with just the slightest amount of wind, eventually winds up in the streets and cats and rodents tear into these bags? I know in some other municipalities, in suburban communities, down at the seashore, there's certain regulations on the containers. And I know we have regulations as it relates to bundling of cardboard and paper. But beyond that, what I'm looking at is, have we ever discussed the possibility of mandating that we use a more sturdy type of container as opposed to the typical green, gray, 1333 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. whatever, garbage bag that literally winds up in the street, gets thrown around. And that's not a fault of the Streets Department, so I'm not criticizing you there. I just was wondering if we, as a City, have ever looked at that. COMMISSIONER MOY: Well, in talking about the diversity of our City, you know, with all of the geographical differences and diversity that we have, it really is hard to get a one-size-fits-all kind of answer. Certainly, the problems of containers, with theft, we find people that had gone to containers were pulling back and going to bags for whatever reason; convenience, lack of storage in the smaller houses. And over the years, it's very irregular in different neighborhoods, but we could certainly approach this.
And the reason I raise this is I understand that we've all become accustomed to the throwaway -- we've become a throwaway society. Before there were trash bags, everyone used a container. And we kind of became 1334 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. -- pardon me, I'm giving my age away. I'll be 52 in May. I mean, and that disturbs me, again, because I'm kind of fanatical about trash, that we don't maybe look back to what we did prior to the trash bag era. And I understand that some of the people say, Well, you know, it's heavy for me to carry. But when I look at the elderly person who complains to me about that, who typically has three bags of trash that they have to make three return trips to the yard, assuming they don't put it out front before trash pickup, they have to carry one bag at a time three different times out to the front. So why wouldn't they put some material in a trash container, maybe make the three trips, one bag at a time, to the container. I think it would make for a much cleaner environment. And if it requires legislation -- I may probably get my head chopped off -- but I'd be willing to be supportive of that kind of legislation, and I'd like to talk to you about that. 1335 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. COMMISSIONER MOY: All right.
I think it would go a long way and probably help in not only keeping the City clean, but may help you in your efforts to gather up trash because it makes it more compact. I think I had one more question. When we talk about recycling and the possibility -- and I encourage doing a weekly recycling as opposed to every other week. Did we ever look towards doing the recycling on a trash pickup day as opposed to an alternate day? Because, again, giving my age away, I remember when trash was put out, when we had the old coal stove that heated the house, you had a big metal container for ashes, you had a garbage container for garbage. And the pig farmers, if the City wasn't picking it up, then they also had regular trash containers. And it was all put out on the same day. And as someone who's aware of this and does a lot of recycling, I forget. You know, with my job, I get home 11:30 some nights and I forget what day it is that I'm getting home, no less what 1336 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. day I should be putting my recycles out. So I would appreciate it if you would really look into that seriously, that we do it on the same day as trash. COMMISSIONER MOY: We certainly will consider at the same time.
I just offered that suggestion to Pete Certo as we were sitting here talking. I said I don't understand why we can't do it on the same day as the regular trash collection day.
The trucks that we use for recycling, they're only used -- am I correct? -- for recycling materials? COMMISSIONER MOY: Yes.
Just follow each other. 1337 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT.
We would just follow each around. COMMISSIONER MOY: Right.
Thank you. The Chair recognizes Councilwoman Fernandez. (No response.)
Thank you, Madame Chairwoman. Two quick questions. First, just a statement. I can't believe how old Councilman DiCicco is if he remembers coal and pig farmers. Councilman, for your age, you've held up pretty good. (Laughter.)
Thank you. Back 1338 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. to Councilwoman Tasco's driveway problem. I have the same problem with the driveways, and I'm glad you brought that up. I brought that up to Councilman Cohen about a year ago. And he seems to remember in his 80-some years -- he's been here since 1962, and I commend him for that. But he remembers that there was somebody who used to buy, I guess you would call it, a bond. And they would be bonded -- they would buy it off the City, and they would actually be the collector of the people who didn't pay for the, you know, the redoing of the back of their driveway. Could we look into something there and see if -- COMMISSIONER MOY: Well, there used to be -- there was a gentleman by the name of Louis Boxer that bought those bills through the City, and --
He went to Florida or something? COMMISSIONER MOY: No, he's maybe 105 now or something like that, if he's still alive. 1339 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT.
Well, in Councilman DiCicco's world, that's not that old. (Laughter.) COMMISSIONER MOY: Right. He remembers horse carts picking up the ashes.
Right. COMMISSIONER MOY: But he retired, and actually no one picked up -- there was one contract that we had after he had retired, and I think they convinced him to come out one more time. I think he was like 90-some odd years old.
Didn't you try to get anybody else to do this? COMMISSIONER MOY: We've tried, and we just are having difficulty, but we will explore it again in terms of -- it's a niche that has to be filled, but people are not willing to step forward and buy those bills at discount, which is what it amounts to. COMMISSIONER MARIANO: And we got people to buy our tax liens, and we were amazed at that, so I mean, there must be some wise person out there with some money that can make something on this if we advertise it, if they read it in the 1340 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. paper that we're looking for something like that. My second question is, I was glad to hear about that pilot program. And from my first round with you this morning, maybe that's the answer for the driveways up in the Northeast, something on wheels. In this pilot program, do you expect the sanitation workers to actually run up and wheel these things back to the trash trucks or -- 'cause I never heard of the pilot program. DEPT. COMM. TOLSON: Right, the one that I suggested that we were --
Excuse me. Please identify yourself before you answer that. DEPT. COMM. TOLSON: Yes, Clarena Tolson. The one I'm suggesting that we're trying to look at now is one where a truck would actually grab the can itself and dump it.
Okay. DEPT. COMM. TOLSON: So you need clearance, you need clear access to the can, no 24 parked cars, and you need some space away from a house where you could reach out. 1341 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT.
Right, I envisioned something like that. But when Councilman DiCicco was talking about the pig farmers, I remember, they didn't come up the driveway; they used to actually run up the driveway, and it was only garbage they were picking up. DEPT. COMM. TOLSON: Right.
I'm not as old as him, but I do remember that. And they used to run it back down. They never brought the garbage up the driveway. DEPT. COMM. TOLSON: Right.
And that amazed me. Thank you. Thank, you Madame Chairwoman. That's all.
You're welcome. Are there any other questions or comments? Commissioner, we do have 43 less sanitation workers in your budget? COMMISSIONER MOY: Yes, that's correct.
Is that because of 1342 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. the larger trucks that are being used? I don't know how you can provide the same level of service with 43 less employees. COMMISSIONER MOY: Councilwoman, it amounts to people that we have been able to 7 reduce, and this is a result of our balancing of 8 our routes, the sanitation collection routes. 9
I think your 10 testimony indicated 43. 11 COMMISSIONER MOY: Councilwoman, I'm 12 sorry for the delay here, but it is 47, and we are 13 talking about collections and cleaning and other 14 parts of the Sanitation Division that we've been 15 able to effect these changes in. This was from 16 our targeted budget. 17
And your satisfied 18 with that? COMMISSIONER MOY: We believe we can manage our collections.
Okay. I had some other questions, but I know it's been a long day for you, so I will submit them in writing because we have other departments that have been waiting since early this morning. 1343 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, STREETS DEPT. COMMISSIONER MOY: I appreciate that.
I want to thank you for your patience. COMMISSIONER MOY: Thank you.
The Department of Public Property is next to testify. (Members of the Public Property panel come forward.)
Good afternoon, Commissioner, please identify yourself for the record and proceed with your testimony. And perhaps you can introduce those who are sitting at the table with you, if you will. COMMISSIONER PEREZ: Good afternoon, Councilwoman Verna. My name is Andres Perez. I'm the Commissioner of the Department of Public Property. It's a pleasure to appear today before Council in support of Public Property's budget for Fiscal Year 1999. With me are Mr. Joseph James, Deputy Commissioner of Communications; John Herzins, 1344 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, PUBLIC PROPERTY Deputy Commissioner for Administration; and George Hee, Fiscal Officer. In my testimony, I'd just like to briefly outline the role of the Department and detail some of our accomplishments during Fiscal '98. The Department of Public Property's fiscal 1999 budget request totals $198,702,735 in all funds, an increase of $5,473,222 from our FY '98 estimated obligations. In the General Fund, in Class 100, we're requesting $8,794,295, which is an increase of $206,000, approximately $206,000, from our FY '98 obligations. And that comes as a result of the pay raises that are due. In Class 200, we're requesting $144,335,805, which is an increase of $4,256,381 from our FY '98 obligations and resulting from an increase in telecom and utility costs as well as an increase in the SEPTA subsidy. We're requesting $15 million in Class 800, which is an increase of $1 million for our FY '98 obligations, resulting from full funding of water and sewer charges. 1345 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, PUBLIC PROPERTY A General Fund request includes $59,343,000 for City support of SEPTA. And there's $20,013,000 for space rentals, $30,350,000 for utility charges, and $12,235,000 for telecommunications services, and $47,272,163 for our core departmental operations. In the Water Fund, we are requesting $3,014,527 in Class 200, which is an increase of only $10,000 from the FY '98 obligation. In the Grants Revenue Fund, we're requesting $16,500,000, which is unchanged year from prior-year obligations. In the Aviation Fund, we're requesting $9,975,000, which is also unchanged from FY '98 obligations. The Facilities and Real Estate Management Division is responsible for the acquisition and disposition of City-owned properties, as well as the maintenance and management of City-owned facilities. The Department continues to implement the Administration's Center City Real Estate Plan, recognizing that the City's financial and operational interests were not effectively served 1346 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, PUBLIC PROPERTY by the continuation of scattered-site, short-term leases. The Administration developed the Center City Real Estate Plan in 1994 with three primary objectives: the consolidation of our scattered downtown office space; negotiating more competitive real estate terms in the Center City market; and providing the municipal work force and the citizens they serve with modern, functional and cost-effective space. The selection of the former Bell Building headquarters at One Benjamin Franklin Parkway, as an additional Center City municipal office building, will consolidate 13 agencies, including virtually all of the Law Department operations and most of the centralized Department of Human Services functions. The move into this building of 1900 employees currently located in 7 different leased buildings throughout the City will be completed in November of '98. The Department also recognized that several agencies housed in leased spaces had operational requirements that would not be well 1347 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, PUBLIC PROPERTY served through consolidation, but that significant savings could be achieved through lease negotiations. 2 million in savings over the life of the plan.
The remaining implementation of the plan is currently being addressed by the Department and includes selecting a building to move several agency functions currently located in Center City office space to less costly buildings away from the Center City business district. Consolidation of several agencies which are located in scattered-site leased open space -- pardon me -- leased space into one Center City location. The number of completed maintenance work orders has dramatically increased from 2,401 in 1992 to 5,281 in FY '97, with a projected 7,504 completed in both '98 and '99. 1348 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, PUBLIC PROPERTY This increase can be traced to two important developments. The rejuvenation of the City's capital program is enabling the Department's Building Services Staff to return to the mission of providing maintenance services, thereby reducing the age of the maintenance work-order backlogs and improving response time to routine maintenance requests. In addition to tracking the number of work orders, the Department will begin analyzing hours it takes to respond to work orders, which will be a much more meaningful indicator of our success in providing building maintenance services. Computerized building maintenance system. The maintenance planning and control system has increased our ability to plan and perform regular preventative maintenance on building systems, thereby reducing the risk of system failure and extending the useful life of existing systems. The impact program is now being used to manage contracted services at the current Fromhold Correctional Facility, the Criminal Justice 1349 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, PUBLIC PROPERTY Center, the Municipal Services Building and will be extended the to One Parkway building when that building comes on line during the summer of 1998 in addition, it gets extended to any new facility that's constructed by the CPO during our term. The recently completed police and fire facility at 24th and Wolfe was added to the impact system in FY '98. And for the first time, a comprehensive preventive maintenance program has been established for the combined police and fire facility. The Department has successfully completed rebid of contracted operations, maintenance and support services at the Curran-Fromhold Criminal Justice Center and the Municipal Services Building, including the anticipated One Parkway building, with a new contract awarded in July of 1997. The Competitive Contracting Initiative resulted in significant savings as well as dramatic improvements in the delivery of services. An example of the savings included a $500,000 reduction in maintenance costs at current Fromhold, and a $477,000 reduction in cost for 1350 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, PUBLIC PROPERTY custodial services in City Hall and its adjacent subway concourses. A significant example of the improvement in service delivery is that the level of maintenance available at current Fromhold has resulted in zero cell outage overnight since the prison was open more than two years ago. And a cell outage is just broadly defined as having a cell unavailable for a prisoner to use on an overnight basis. The Department anticipates that it will continue to generate annual savings and further enhance services, including increased custodial and security staffing and improved preventive maintenance practices. Since 1992, the City's implemented a series of improvements to its telecommunications infrastructure by taking advantage of new technology to improve service, reduce costs, and improve the Department's ability to utilize the technology.
These initiatives include creating the City's area-wide network, generally referred to as "City Net," converting over 6,000 rotary 1351 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, PUBLIC PROPERTY telephones to touch-tones service, consolidating a hundred local telephone exchanges into three uniform exchanges, installing a Citywide voice-mail system, providing many departments with automated-attendant systems, and integrative voice-response systems. Interactive applications for checking tax balances and payments were also added to the system during FY '97. In FY '97, the Department assisted the Police Department in installing mobile data terminals in 320 patrol cars. A separate radio system designed for public cellular telephone use was successfully piloted as an alternative data transport medium to support the additional mobile data terminal traffic. As a result of the pilot, Public Property and the Police Department began a Citywide roll-out that will place these mobile terminals in every district patrol car by the end of Fiscal Year '99. The Communications Division also worked with the Police Department to redesign and reconstruct the City's 911 Center at the Police Administration Building. The new center, which 1352 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, PUBLIC PROPERTY will be completed in March, is being outfitted with modern work stations, integrated call-answering and CAT equipment, and a state-of- the-art backup power supply that will keep the 911 Center operational through any electrical emergency. The Communications Division also continues to maintain the existing 911 call answering and dispatch infrastructure for the police and fire departments and to administer the 911 Surcharge Program and to establish regulations for assimilating new local telephone service providers into the 911 system. The Department added 15 integrated service digital network lines during FY '97, bringing the Citywide total to 140 of these ISDN lines. These lines provide additional capacity required to facilitate higher-speed data communications and to support high-volume telephone lines, including customer service line in the Water Revenue Bureau, MOIS's Operation Support Center, the Mayor's Business Action Team, and video arraignment functions in the courts' 1353 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, PUBLIC PROPERTY Pretrial Interview Unit, and various police precincts. In FY '98, the Division anticipates adding another ISDN lines in departments such 6 as Recreation and Health. 7 The Department continues to pursue a 8 state-of-the-art 800-megahertz radio system to 9 replace the existing 150-megahertz and 450- 10 megahertz conventional system. 11 In April of '94, the City issued the 12 request for proposals for this new system and 13 received proposals from two major radio providers. 14 Legislation recently signed by Governor Ridge will 15 allow the mobile and portable communications 16 devices to be included for reimbursement under the 17 911 surcharge. 18 As a result of this legislation, the 19 City will now complete its evaluation of all 20 potential radio system offers, and contract- 21 awarded system implementation are expected to 22 commence during Fiscal Year '99. 23 In FY '98, the City plans to upgrade 24 City Net to increase band width, extend service to 25 the Free Library and the Health Department, add 1354 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, PUBLIC PROPERTY infrastructure to support the One Parkway building, develop subnetworks for the School District and the City of Philadelphia Housing Authority, and support the development of geographic information system applications. The enhancements will provide the infrastructure capacity to support the new prison information system, police MDTs, electronic mail, and online access initiatives. The upgrade is expected to be completed before the end of FY '98, at a cost of approximately $375,000.
Since the City instituted a Special Events Policy in May of 1993, the Managing Director's Office and the City Rep's Office coordinated the City services necessary to support events such as parades and festivals. The Department of Public Property continues to provide much of the labor for these events. Our Facility Management personnel erect and decorate stage and bleachers and deploy security barricades along even routes for police use and crowd control. Our Communications personnel install 1355 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, PUBLIC PROPERTY sound and public address systems, set up electrical wiring and power feeds, and provide holiday seasonal lighting. The number of special events which Department supports continues to increase, going from 186 in FY '94 to 248 in FY '97, and a projection of 250 in FY '98. Not only has the number of events supported by the Department increased, but the size of the events has grown as well. For example, the 1997 Welcome America Festival included 30 events, spanning a two-week period. In both '97 and '98, the Department supported more complex special events than in previous years, including large conventions for the International Brotherhood of Electricians and the International Lions, the President's Summit for America's Future, and the Million Woman march. As a result of the number of hours the Department expended in support of special events increased from 15,480 in FY '95 to 19,266 in FY '97 and is projected to remain at approximately 22,000 hours in both FY '98 and '99. Public Property's been working with 1356 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, PUBLIC PROPERTY representatives from SEPTA and private building owners and Suburban Station to create a master plan to develop station and adjacent Penn Center concourse. This team has been developing a new physical plan for both the public common areas and privately owned areas of the concourse as well as a unified public private managerial structure of common areas and privately opened areas and retained establishments. The plan for the non-retail station mezzanine and platform areas has recently been completed. The resulting operation's plan will be modeled after the plan used by the Mall Maintenance Corporation, which manages the common areas in the Gallery on east Market Street. SEPTA has funded the initial phase of this product at a cost of $13 million. Additional phases involving extensive design and construction will be completed in FY '2003 at a total cost of $33 million. It's expected that the public investment will be supplanted by private-sector contributions by Metro Market, SEPTA's retail manager for the project. 1357 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, PUBLIC PROPERTY In addition to the SEPTA operations subsidy, Public Property's budget includes funding to support the Phlash Center City circulator bus system. The Phlash's ridership has increased from 28,662 in FY '95 to over 96,000 in FY '96, and over 120,000 in FY '97. During the FY '97 season, the capacity constraints of vehicle downtime required rental of additional vehicles. To date, FY '98 ridership has exceeded '97 levels each month and is expected to experience an equal, if not greater, level of increase as occurred in FY '97. FY '99 ridership is projected to further increase due to the anticipated delivery of six new natural-gas-powered buses purchased with federal air-quality funding and the current overhaul of four of the original Orion Phlash buses. With the three new buses received in FY '98 and the buses anticipated in FY '99, the permanent Phlash fleet will be 14 vehicles, which are maintained by SEPTA. This expansion will increase new service opportunities such as the Art Museum and reduce the waiting time. 1358 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, PUBLIC PROPERTY That constitutes my testimony, and I'm available for questions. Thank you.
Thank you, Commission. The Chair recognizes Councilman Nutter.
Thank you. Good afternoon, Commissioner. Commissioner, I'd like to go to pages and of your testimony. About a week or so ago, the Finance Director was here talking about relocation of public employees. And he stated in his testimony that the City tries, in looking at potential office space, to take into consideration the impact that we may be able to have as a, I believe the term is a "lessee," that we look to see what the impact is on the real estate market in terms of looking at space. And there are some public employees who don't necessarily need to be in Center City. They can -- by virtue, I guess, of technology and a whole host of other things, they could be anywhere, I guess, if you provide them with a phone, a fax machine, and maybe a computer and a 1359 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, PUBLIC PROPERTY modem. He later went on to tell us about the proposed relocation of a number of employees who are either in buildings that we currently have leases or that we may own or who are in space owned by other people. For instance, we have folks who are not going into One Parkway from the Streets Department, various police units, and L&I. And those employees are currently at 1600 Arch, 3189 Race, 1415 North Broad Street, and, again, 1600 Arch. What I'm trying to understand is, in the proposed lease for 990 Spring Garden Street, why are we moving people out of 1415 North Broad up in a thriving commercial corridor, to 990 Spring Garden? And have we evaluated the impact the relocation of those employees may have from the one cite in the OIC building to the proposed new site at 990 Spring Garden? And what are the differences in the rates that those leases may have? COMMISSIONER PEREZ: The negotiations 1360 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, PUBLIC PROPERTY with 990 Spring Garden have not been concluded, although we expect the general term of the lease to be about a dollar, a dollar and quarter less per square foot than the lease at 1415 North Broad Street. The prime reason for relocating from 1415 North Broad Street is the owners/managers' inability to properly maintain the space despite many efforts, well-intentioned efforts, on their part. Another contributing factor is the growth of the L&I Unit there. They have outgrown the space that they're in. They need to relocate or move into an expanded area, and it doesn't make much sense to expand inside a building that is already not well taken care of by the owners.
So your testimony is that OIC is not taking care of their building. COMMISSIONER PEREZ: That's correct.
Okay. And what other sites did we explore for these particular employees who, by the previous testimony, at least, could be anywhere in the City? COMMISSIONER PEREZ: I believe the 1361 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, PUBLIC PROPERTY final comparison -- for lack of a better word, the short list included a building on North Eighth Street and a --
North Eighth Street, somewhere in the general Center City area? COMMISSIONER PEREZ: Eighth and Callowhill. I forget the actual street address. I think it was 817 or 814 North Eighth Street. And I think Penn Treaty -- a building referred to as "Penn Treaty Place," I don't recall the specific street address for it. The economics were clearly in favor of the 990 building.
Okay. And when you're looking for buildings, what's the process that you go through to look at potential sites? And did you look at any sites out in our neighborhood areas for where these employees who, again, by Mr. Hayllar's testimony, these people could be anywhere? COMMISSIONER PEREZ: This -- to partially answer that question, the current negotiations over these sites is the outcome of two RFPs that were distributed some time ago leading to the selection of One Parkway and then 1362 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, PUBLIC PROPERTY leading us to finding other sites because One Parkway was not large enough to envelop the original size of the space program. Our best buildings were too large and not economical for us to go into. Or we take One Parkway, which is a little short of the space we required, therefore allowing us to look at other buildings. It was a combination of responses to that RFP. It did not include a targeted effort at neighborhood locations --
Was there any particular -- COMMISSIONER PEREZ: -- as well as word of mouth. In the real estate industry, in the real estate circles, as agents learn about who is pursuing, they don't hesitate to just come forth and bring a building to our attention. And if the economics involved with that offer are attractive enough, we'll do the required analysis and give it appropriate consideration. We were also fighting a time clock. I mean, we have to be out of 1600 Arch. This was driven also by the imminent termination of the 1363 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, PUBLIC PROPERTY lease at 1600 Arch and not only by the completion of One Parkway. A micro-level comparison of the North Broad Street site versus the Spring Garden site, we didn't do, and we don't normally do it unless we have some compelling reason to do that.
Well, some of us -- (Councilwoman Clark takes over the Chair.)
Is there a brief reason why you are even considering moving City services from the North Philadelphia facility, the OIC facility, what we refer to as "the Human Services Building," that large, white building at Broad and Master? COMMISSIONER PEREZ: I think I missed the first part of your question.
Is there a reason why we're considering moving City services from the OIC facility? COMMISSIONER PEREZ: We've outgrown the 1364 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, PUBLIC PROPERTY L&I space. There's also police-training groups inside that facility. And they have not taken care of the building in the manner that it should be taken care of.
Have you complained specifically of things that were not done? And have they failed and refused to fix it? COMMISSIONER PEREZ: They haven't refused to fix anything; they have been unable to effectively and permanently fix and responsibly and timely fix anything. And when we -- actually, when I took it in the other direction, which is, Can we consolidate within your building, take control of a larger block of space and you give us a work letter against the rent that we'll pay? they were unable to do that. And I believe it has to be with their ability to finance their activity in the building.
How will they be helped by you moving out? COMMISSIONER PEREZ: They're going to be hurt because we're going to be vacating space. 1365 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, PUBLIC PROPERTY
But do we want to hurt a large commercial building in North Philadelphia by creating a vacuum by the vacancy we leave? COMMISSIONER PEREZ: I'm not certain how bad or how hard the hurt is. For example, the extra space that we were thinking of expanding, I mentioned to Councilman Nutter that part of the problem was L&I outgrowing its space. They're very, very tightly packed into that -- There was some excess space in the building, and they did find another tenant for it before we could even conclude that they couldn't finance what we wanted, but they did find another tenant for some portion of that space. I really don't know how viable the building is for them. The reason that we're in that building is because of its strategic location. I mean, we're leaving the strategic location, but --
If its location was strategic when you decided to go, is it not still a strategic location? COMMISSIONER PEREZ: It is, but they're 1366 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, PUBLIC PROPERTY not taking care of the space. They are unable -- with good-faith efforts, with good-faith efforts, they still can't get things done. And they're unable to finance a renovation. The other key aspect of these renegotiations we've done related to the space consolidation wasn't simply taking space at a cheaper rate. But in virtually every case, we get completely renovated space, modern finishes and modern furnishings in some cases if the budget includes it. So staying in a building where the owner can't do that for us is contrary to that plan. I feel bad for them. They've been in there a long time, I've been Commissioner for a long time, seven years. In those seven years, we've had numerous sets of issues which have all been associated with how well they take care of that space, not so much how crowded we are in our own space.
Commissioner, did you look at any other locations in the general neighborhood? 1367 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, PUBLIC PROPERTY COMMISSIONER PEREZ: I don't believe we did. I think we just took the path of least resistance.
Well, the follow-up to Councilwoman's Clark question is: If you believe that that is a strategic location, and if we grant you that the space is either not appropriate or the owner can't take care of it or whatever, the area, I guess, still retains some strategic importance. And so it would seem to me that the next level of inquiry is: What else is around in the general vicinity? And your response is, you didn't take a look at that, right? COMMISSIONER PEREZ: No, sir.
And you also said earlier that you did not take any particular look for any of these people who, again, can be anywhere, at any neighborhood locations that could benefit -- if it's the City policy is to try to benefit the local real estate market, don't you think that certain neighborhoods could benefit from having public employees in potentially renovated space, with nice leases, out in the 1368 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, PUBLIC PROPERTY community somewhere? COMMISSIONER PEREZ: I think it's a forgone conclusion that if we as a tenant -- and forget us as the City, but just if we as a tenant become the anchor tenant for an otherwise under- utilized building in a commercial corridor or other neighborhood location, there will -- sure, there will be an impact.
A positive impact. COMMISSIONER PEREZ: Usually positive. And I say "usually positive" because they don't welcome our cars. I mean, parking is a part of the consideration in the consideration of the buildings that I mentioned. Parking capacity was very much a part of looking at times those three buildings, not simply cheaper rent.
Okay. Madame Chair, you had actually asked for a yield, and I jumped on your yield from the previous time.
Okay. Now, in your testimony, Commissioner, we have kind of two 1369 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, PUBLIC PROPERTY things going on. On , we're looking to centralize some of our agencies and functions in Center City buildings. And literally, in the next bullet point, we talk about decentralizing some employees into scattered-site spaces. Is that correct? COMMISSIONER PEREZ: Yes.
We've got some centralized and some decentralized. COMMISSIONER PEREZ: That's correct.
Okay. And it's your opinion that this particular location at 990 is the best place for all of these different units, Streets, Police, and L&I, and their very components to be? COMMISSIONER PEREZ: It's the best place of all that we considered. Is there a better one out there somewhere? There very well may be, but the timetable doesn't really permit us to continue the space chase.
Okay. And just for the record, how many locations did you consider? COMMISSIONER PEREZ: I don't recall. I can get that for you based on RFP responses as 1370 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, PUBLIC PROPERTY well as agents sending in unsolicited proposals.
Okay. I'd also be interested in what agents you've been dealing with or who you normally deal with. COMMISSIONER PEREZ: Certainly.
Okay. Lastly, with regard to particular departments being in close proximity to each other, tell me what discussion took place with regard to the relocation of the police units that are currently at the Third and Race location. I believe that Civil Affairs is housed there, the Internal Affairs Bureau is housed there, and a couple others. COMMISSIONER PEREZ: Gun Permits.
Gun Permits and a few others, is that right? COMMISSIONER PEREZ: Yes.
Okay. And was there ever any other discussion or concern expressed with regard to the -- and I understand that Third and Race is in fairly bad shape. COMMISSIONER PEREZ: Yes.
So I understand why 1371 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, PUBLIC PROPERTY people want to leave that location. But now as we're going through a "space chase," as you've indicated, did anyone raise any concern with regard to the Internal Affairs Bureau going to a new location with a number of other police units and the impact that that might have on the ability of the Internal Affairs Unit to conduct their business, which is highly sensitive, in a way that doesn't jeopardize or compromise any of their investigations? COMMISSIONER PEREZ: That is an issue that both Commissioner Neal and members of his Department that were closer to the move, the relocation of the agency, had expressed their desire to try to avoid that. We would have liked to have honored that outrightly. The move of the Police Department's agencies into 990 is permanent for some and temporary for others. And in the case of Civil Affairs, we expect, as has been accommodated in the capital budget, for the renovation of the Wistar School. The Wistar School will have incorporated into it police laboratory services, some police training activity, and is expected to be the future home of 1372 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, PUBLIC PROPERTY at least Internal Affairs, with the agreement of the Police Department.
Well, when do you anticipate -- COMMISSIONER PEREZ: Pardon?
When do you anticipate the Wistar site being completed? COMMISSIONER PEREZ: I believe -- well, it's a '99 request, and it would take about two years to complete, bringing us to 2,000.
So somewhere in 2001, 2002. COMMISSIONER PEREZ: The lease is structured on Spring Garden to allow us -- although it's a 15-year -- we're proposing a 15-year lease, the owner did agree to let us eliminate portions of the space associated with the police agencies as we find a permanent location for them.
Mr. Nutter, do you mind yielding to Mr. Rizzo for a moment for a 1373 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, PUBLIC PROPERTY follow-up?
Thank you. Commissioner Perez based, on the fact that many of these plans were made by Commissioner Neal, and Commissioner Neal's gone, I'd like to appeal to you today to put a hold on anything that would undermine the new Police Commissioner. A, the space that is going to be considered for Internal Affairs, that now I believe that Commissioner Timoney should review this to see if he wants his internal organization there. And, B, any purchases of communications equipment not be awarded until Commissioner Timoney has an opportunity to see if this is going to satisfy his management criteria, his management needs. The purchase of any vehicles, I think we should put a hold on. He'll be here, sworn in, March the 10th, so that anything that affects the Police Department should be put on hold until 1374 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, PUBLIC PROPERTY Commissioner Timoney has an opportunity to review it. COMMISSIONER PEREZ: We'll certainly take that under advisement. I'm not sure that --
No, I don't want it under advisement, Commissioner. I think you owe that to Police Commissioner Timoney. COMMISSIONER PEREZ: Councilman, let me point out that the lease negotiations are not concluded. They are also long term, which means they must come to you, they must come to you for final approval.
Commissioner, I'm not asking you to give me any -- COMMISSIONER PEREZ: Between now and then, I believe there's ample time for the new commissioner's review of our plans. And any adjustments that need to be made, I'm sure that we'll make them.
If you will permit 1375 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, PUBLIC PROPERTY Mr. Perez to say "where feasible," because there will be some opportunities that we just can't afford the luxury of abrogating contracts because somebody else is coming on. Where it is feasible and where it does not adversely impact on the continuity of those opportunities should be preserved for the new commissioner, and I think I heard Commissioner Perez saying that's what he's willing to do. But he cannot give you a blanket shutdown on all operations until a new man comes. That --
But I don't know what stage various sensitive negotiations might be in. So if it is feasible, if it is feasible -- if you'll just let us use that kind of language, that gives us enough room to do what we have to do.
That's better than "under advisement," taking it under advisement.
Okay. I always 1376 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, PUBLIC PROPERTY say it better than the Commissioner does. COMMISSIONER PEREZ: I certainly appreciate the clarification. And, again, I just want to remind -- I understand what your concerns are, but --
Commissioner, thank you. We have already cleared it up; don't help me anymore. (Laughter.) COMMISSIONER PEREZ: Thank you.
Thank you. Mr. Rizzo, do you yield back to Mr. Nutter?
Thank you, Madame Chair. It is an area in which I have a great amount of concern. At the same time, Commissioner, I do understand that we don't even have a bill over to us yet on the 990 Spring Garden Street location. And I would certainly not anticipate that we're going to receive one prior to the new police commissioner arriving. So I certainly 1377 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, PUBLIC PROPERTY understand that we're not in any imminent danger of something taking place prior to his arrival. Secondly, even if that were the case, if the Council decided not to ratify the lease, you wouldn't be going into the building anyway.
Right, right. COMMISSIONER PEREZ: Well, that's correct.
So notwithstanding what we'd like or who we liked was going away or anything else -- COMMISSIONER PEREZ: That's correct, we would end up stuck in certain places, paying penalty rent, until we find another location.
Right. Okay. I appreciate your responses. I do have a concern about the particular relocation of that unit as it relates to their sensitive wherever they may be. COMMISSIONER PEREZ: Yes, yes.
And whether it was under the decision of current Police Commissioner Neal or whatever the future commissioner may decide, the concern that I have remains the same. And the new commissioner may agree with 1378 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, PUBLIC PROPERTY your plans, and I'll be asking you and him the same questions because I think the fundamental principle is that the Internal Affairs Bureau, given the nature of their situation, should not be forced to be in space, even if it is, by your criteria, considered temporary. Although your temporary is about three to four years. If other police officers are in the same vicinity as the Internal Affairs Bureau, it becomes fairly obvious who is going to Internal Affairs, whether they're a police person or a civilian person, and they are automatically identified as going to that agency, and it will take about five seconds for anyone else to know who that person is and where they were going. That is my concern if we are serious about the future function of the Internal Affairs Bureau in this City. COMMISSIONER PEREZ: Well, one of the ironies of dealing with police space needs, especially unanticipated ones, such as the conditions at Race Street which create this problem is that, again, during my tenure as Commissioner, I don't believe that we ever ended 1379 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, PUBLIC PROPERTY up putting in the space that was selected the agency which first had the problem in the first place within the Police Department. One of the things that we do with them is, a kind of permutation starts to develop where if they tell us that's not the best location or that's not the best fit but we're both fighting a time constraint -- 'cause that's how it usually happens, it's usually a fiscal problem, we gotta out, we gotta take 'em somewhere. What they do is look among their operations for a substitution.
Right, I understand. COMMISSIONER PEREZ: We've done that pretty significantly a number of times, and that's still certainly out there.
Okay. We'll have future opportunities to debate 990 Spring Garden if and when any lease comes over. Madame Chair, I am finished, appreciate the accommodation.
Thank you very much. 1380 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, PUBLIC PROPERTY Next on our list to be heard is Mr. Rizzo.
Thank you, Madame Chair. Commissioner, referring to the space chase, I'm finding it very difficult to find out what's going on with City Hall. I've called -- I had one of the people that work with me call the Department of Public Property, and they refer us to the Managing Director's Office. Could you send to the Chair a plan of what is going to occur with this building? This building's empty, and we're renting space all over the City of Philadelphia while we're going to be in the Land Title Building. What is wrong with this building that's paid for that we don't have to pay any rent on? COMMISSIONER PEREZ: A two-part answer, Councilman. As most of you are aware, the Capital Program Office in its creation inherited the planning responsibility for the future repairs and renovations of City Hall and are still very much a part of that as the representational prime tenant 1381 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, PUBLIC PROPERTY in the building. Yes, it's true that there's a number of spaces, even after the courts have done their shuffling around and moved some of their rented spaces back into City Hall, that some of that has occurred. There are still substantial spaces in the building, which, if we're required to do a complete make-over to comply with the modern code -- I mean, it's the rule that once you touch something too much, all the codes apply. We've estimated that that could be in the range of $300 a square foot, generally speaking. Just -- and that doesn't include the extra effort of historic preservation. This is just walls, floors, and ceilings, because of the nature of the building, because it is one of the largest masonry structures in the world. By comparison, by comparison, we can get a space in a rental building done for 30 or $40 a square foot to accommodate some function. The permanent plan for City Hall is still very much a work in progress, although substantially completed, and I do believe that -- 1382 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, PUBLIC PROPERTY while I don't believe that it's been made available to Councilmembers, there's a discussion copy that has been discussed between the Mayor and Council President Street. And at some point, when the plan is finalized, it will be available.
Well, I would hope that long-term there been some long-term consideration on leases that eventually -- I hope you weren't describing City Hall as a white elephant, and that we may be years in utilizing 12 this very valuable space. 13 I would hope that -- I would hope that 14 there's some long-term plan that's coordinated 15 with the rental of space to bring people back to 16 City Hall once this renovation's done. 17 I mean, how long is this plan to make 18 City Hall a usable building again? How long's it 19 going to -- what do you project? 20 COMMISSIONER PEREZ: The original planning cycle for City Hall was over a 10-year spread and in the range of, I believe, 20, $25 million a year of spending. Your current -- you know, the budget before you on the capital side of this, I think, 1383 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, PUBLIC PROPERTY is at $10 million a year and more focussed on building systems.
You stated before in an answer to a question that the Mayor and President Street are discussing this, the working -- the plan in the works. I'm just wondering, are you aware that this is not a one-person body, that there's 12 Members of City Council, that there's 16 others, 13 besides President Street, that have offices in 14 City Hall and are interested in what's going on 15 and are elected by the people? 16 So I'm just suggesting that I think 17 that's a very dangerous modus operandi, to believe that there are only two partners in this, the Mayor and City Council President Street. We know nothing. I've received absolutely no word about anything. I've talked to other Councilmembers; they know nothing about any plans for City Hall. Thank you. And if you have any comment, I -- 1384 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, PUBLIC PROPERTY
Yeah, I agree that City Hall is a precious building. And if we're going to be spending millions of dollars on rental space, that we should really be focussing on what we plan to do. Commissioner, my last question of you. This Administration's been in place for seven years. This plan that you have, when did it first start? In other words, how far are we behind on this project? COMMISSIONER PEREZ: The development of a plan was begun shortly before the Rendell Administration took place, and it continued into its first couple of years. The approach at that time was to investigate the building, you know, the usual consultant in-depth investigation, evaluation, determination of the entire set of problems associated with the building before moving to proposing remedies and then costing out those remedies for those fixes. It was a foregone conclusion that all systems would have to be, you know, substantially or completely replaced. That in the course of 1385 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, PUBLIC PROPERTY doing those systems, that we would be disturbing spaces in the building. And, therefore, there wasn't a pretty significant requirement to plan our way into moving people in and out of their spaces as we went through to do the various capital projects that had been envisioned. But the original vision was a top-down, quadrant-by-quadrant program, which was based on completely vacating a quadrant of the building and then completely renovating a quadrant of the building. And it did include space plans for who got back into the spaces that were renovated as we moved around the four quadrants of the building over an approximately 15-year span. It was a three- to four-year cycle for each building. That was deemed not a financially feasible approach. Even if there were engineering solutions to every problem, every solution was extremely, extremely expensive.
Commissioner, my final comment is, after now more than seven years that this has been in the plan, we don't even have 1386 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, PUBLIC PROPERTY a minimum -- just to basically restate what Councilman Cohen said. Because I have a tough time explaining to people that pay taxes that you're out renting space on Broad Street, and they walk through this building and you could shoot a cannon down some of the corridors and not hit anything. How can you tell the citizens of Philadelphia that you've got this big building here, I think you need to provide me through the Chair how I can explain beyond what you said here today, because I don't buy it that this building can't be rehabbed. Because we live in this building, the Mayor lives in this building. And I'm sure certain other people, even if it were a little bit of a -- not the most desirable place, rather than spend million dollars in leases. Thank you, Commissioner. COMMISSIONER PEREZ: Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Rizzo. 1387 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, PUBLIC PROPERTY Commissioner, I think we are leaving an erroneous impression upon this record that we're flying by the seat of our pants, with no 5 comprehensive plan in place. Is that what you mean to leave?
Have there not been -- COMMISSIONER PEREZ: Not at all. The plan, as we referred to it, is a live document. And a number of us over the years, every time we meet, we discuss, review and cost estimate, start reviewing the plan again, ratcheting down that cost, engineering our way down to those most essential repairs that can be done and the soonest.
One of the things that the plan sought to do was to inventory places that were being rented by the City, to determine whether the City was getting its best value, to coordinate and consolidate City services in some buildings, to get out of others, to renegotiate leases so as to get the greatest savings possible, and to maximize the use of buildings where we are. Is that not true? 1388 BILL 980003, FY '99 OPERATING BUDGET, PUBLIC PROPERTY COMMISSIONER PEREZ: That's true. And one of the operating assumptions, although not well articulated in any documents that have been produced, such as the second Latimer Buck Study, is that the Center City space reorganization for our government requirements was never done in absolute disregard of the City Hall prospects. However, the assumption was that the reorganization, the physical reorganization of the courts -- not the operational reorganization of the courts -- would substantially occupy the building, in addition to some agencies possibly staying in the building.
Now, when you say "the building," do you mean City Hall? COMMISSIONER PEREZ: Meaning City Hall. It's a million square foot gross building, which only has -- barely half of the space is considered useful, rentable space by real estate standards.