Thank you, Madam President. Good afternoon. COMMISSIONER RAMSEY: Good afternoon.
Commissioner, on the Police Service Area -- it might be a little early, because I know it hasn't been established that long -- how overall has the community accepted that? Because I know people don't like change sometimes. COMMISSIONER RAMSEY: Well, so far, I've been very pleased both from the community's response and also internally, which is where I thought I'd get the 274 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc. biggest problem, quite frankly.
I was going to ask you that, too. COMMISSIONER RAMSEY: It's going to take some time before people fully get comfortable with it, but the fact that they have -- a Police Service Area, for those that are watching this and may not fully understand it, is a geographical subdivision of a district. You could have anywhere from two Police Service Areas to four, depending on the district and how it's divided up. There's a Lieutenant in charge of each PSA and there's a cadre of Sergeants and officers that work on a regular basis assigned to that PSA. So there's continuity of assignment. People get to know who is in charge, people get to know who is responsible for working in that particular area. Over time it will get even stronger, but so far, the reception has been good. And remarkably, inside the 275 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc. Department there has not been any real problem at all. It's gone remarkably smooth, much smoother than I anticipated, because officers are no longer running from one end of the district to the other on a consistent basis. It's more stability for them.
And it's been -- again, it might be too early. Any stats or ideas on the crime rate? Has it decreased or is it a little hard to tell? COMMISSIONER RAMSEY: It's too soon to say through specifically the PSAs. We've had very, very good success in our crime fighting, and I expect it to get better as people take on more responsibility for given areas and get more involved in problem-solving with the community. I think it will have a tremendous impact on crime. But we didn't fully roll out our Police Service Area model until the end of 2009. That's when the last police districts went live 276 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc. with PSAs. So it's too early to say specifically about the PSAs. But we're continuing to drive crime down. Just so you know, 2010 compared to '09 right now, we're showing a ten percent decrease in violent crime and a four percent decrease in property crime. So we're continuing to drive the numbers down.
Going in the right direction, sure. Speaking of change and some people maybe not accepting it, the combining of the couple of the districts, I know I live near the old 23rd, which is now the 22nd, and there was at least this perception -- and I think I know the answer to this, but I wanted to ask just for the record. There's this perception that certain areas would be less served once the combination. Can you just kind of explain that procedure? And my understanding, there is no decrease in officers of any note. COMMISSIONER RAMSEY: No. We 277 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc. didn't pull any officers out of those districts. It really gives the Captain a little more flexibility operationally, and plus we just simply didn't have the resources to staff police districts, 7 and those districts being in the same 8 facility, it just made sense to combine 9 them. And with the PSA model being 10 rolled out at the same time, there is a 11 number of police officers that will be 12 assigned to each PSA. So they're not 13 running all over the district. There'll 14 be a smaller geographical area in which 15 we'll have numbers of officers assigned, 16 and that way, we can maintain some 17 stability. 18
Got you. 19 The foot patrols, now you're saying the 20 graduates of the recent class, the way I 21 read your testimony, they'll all be put 22 on foot patrol? 23 COMMISSIONER RAMSEY: Yes, sir. Since I've been here now, a little over two years, we've been putting recruits 278 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc. out on foot patrol. I happen to personally believe that's a good way to start your police career, start off on foot, get to know the community, get to know our neighborhood. Hard to do when you're riding up and down the street in a car. We'll continue to do that. Now, what we did last year, which was different than just flat out foot patrol, we actually did target specific areas based on a study conducted by Dr. Jerry Ratcliffe from Temple University, and we were able to show pretty dramatic results I think in the targeted areas, about a 17 percent reduction in crime in the areas 18 where we had the targeted foot patrol, 19 one of the largest foot patrol 20 experiments, if not the largest anywhere 21 in the country, more than 250 officers 22 last year. And we'll have foot patrol again. Now the weather has warmed up, we're going back to foot patrol again, and then when the officers graduate from 279 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc. the Academy, they, of course, will automatically be out on foot patrol.
And the idea is to keep them in that area? COMMISSIONER RAMSEY: Yes, sir.
So they're familiar with the area and the area is familiar with them? COMMISSIONER RAMSEY: Yes, sir. There may be a little bit of movement, only because if your crime patterns shift or whatever, what we started this summer with in one district, our resources may need to shift slightly, but for the most part, those officers stay put.
No. 24 Councilwoman Miller has a point of information. 280 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc.
Regarding foot patrols, is there a designated amount of time that they stay on foot patrol, or what? COMMISSIONER RAMSEY: You mean in terms of months?
It's not continuous? COMMISSIONER RAMSEY: Well, we shut it down for the winter months, but these last group of officers were out for three months, I believe it was, some as long as six months.
So when will -- well, I saw some foot patrol last week. It's the first time I saw them in a couple months, and I certainly understand them coming off particularly this winter with all the snow and everything else that we've had. So those that are there now will be there for about six months or so? COMMISSIONER RAMSEY: Well, maybe even longer than that. I'm a 281 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc. proponent of foot patrol. You don't have to sell me on foot patrol, but I also recognize that it's not necessarily the most efficient way of patrolling. It's very good in targeted areas. It's very good along commercial corridors, but it also limits an officer's ability to respond. So I really think the combination of foot patrol, bike patrol, which is another great way of patrolling the streets, as well as vehicle patrol and, quite frankly, I'm trying to get a mounted patrol back.
A what? COMMISSIONER RAMSEY: Mounted, horses. I think there's no reason for the City not to have a mounted police unit, especially in light of some of the crowd control situations we've encountered recently. We do need to have a small horse patrol unit. So I think that there's a variety of patrol strategies that need to be employed to be effective, but foot 282 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc. patrol is very, very effective, and I'm a big believer in it.
And it should be two officers? I know this is his question. I just want to make sure, it should be two, not one, correct? COMMISSIONER RAMSEY: Yeah. We try to walk in pairs as much as possible, but sometimes along a commercial strip, if you don't have a real violent crime, you may have one officer walking by himself, but for the most part, they're in pairs.
Actually, I was going to ask about the mounted police. That was going to be my last question. What would you say are the prospects of that? COMMISSIONER RAMSEY: I 283 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc. think --
I agree with what you just said. COMMISSIONER RAMSEY: I think the prospects are pretty good. I think that we've got to look very seriously at it right now. The Pennsylvania State Police, they have been excellent partners. I have no complaints at all about them. When we need them, they are always there. But we should not be reliant on an outside agency that may have other commitments on a given day that we need them to be able to perform a particular function. I think a modest-sized unit, perhaps or so, would be more than 19 enough to handle any incident that may 20 come up, whether we're talking these so-called flash mobs or we're talking about the Phillies winning championships or any other kind of crowd control situation.
That's 284 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc. going to happen again this year. COMMISSIONER RAMSEY: I believe so, too, sir. Any type of crowd control situation. Plus it's just an effective form of patrol in neighborhoods. So days when they aren't deployed that way, I would have them actually on crime patrols.
Thank you, Madam Chair. I have caused a delay in your testimony, which has caused me to have to send you most of my questions in writing. But what I've been doing with every department is going through the positions. I have a question about 35 all civilian positions, ten of which are 285 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc. newly created in the budget, and I will have someone e-mail over to the Deputy Commissioner, I suppose. COMMISSIONER RAMSEY: Not a problem.
And the questions that we're going to ask are who is performing the function now, why it's being performed. You've sat here for the Prisons. COMMISSIONER RAMSEY: Not a problem.
And we'd really like to understand why we need those 35 civilian positions. With respect to your overtime costs in the court system, has anything that you've heard about the new plans, whether it's 3,000 summary offenses instead of other things, which means fewer court appearances on minor drug offenses and other things like that, caused you to be able to lower the overtime you have now or is all of that 286 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc. and everything else we're doing on CJAB reflected in your current overtime budget for courts? COMMISSIONER RAMSEY: Well, certainly the issue of summary offenses for minor possession cases, marijuana, anything that keeps an officer from appearing in court is going to have an impact on our overtime budget and would be helpful. We, through CJAB, have been able to get a lot of cooperation from both the DA and the courts in doing a better job of scheduling these cases, getting court notices out in a timely fashion and the like. If you recall, sir, about two months ago, maybe three, I sent letters out to both the DA's Office and the presiding judge explaining our situation and, in fact, that should we find that we're paying overtime because of their failure to make notifications in a timely fashion, I'd be sending them a bill for the amount that it's costing us, because it's like giving someone else our 287 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc. checkbook with a free rein to write whatever you want to write. I mean, it's not right. So, I mean, we'll have to absorb some of it, but if it's because of an oversight or negligence and you fail to notify in a timely fashion, you should pay that tab, not the Philadelphia Police Department or the City of Philadelphia.
And you guys are in a position to enforce that. COMMISSIONER RAMSEY: But so far, everyone has honestly sat down and with the spirit of cooperation, they recognize the problem and they're doing everything they can. And that's not to say there won't be some mistakes made. I mean, we're all going to make some mistakes, but I think a lot of the unnecessary overtime is going to be cut down. That, coupled with our Overtime Management Unit that I'm very proud of that's really screening each and every case, and if a court notice comes over 288 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc. for six officers, we challenge that, Why do you need six, why not two, why not -- you know, you've got to go through each one of these individually.
That's a great point. So with respect to the summary offenses, probably on average two people would be called, two police officers? COMMISSIONER RAMSEY: Probably more than that actually, but probably on average, two would be a fair assumption, yeah.
So that's basically 3,000 times two, and for most of those cases, they have to be in court more than once just because. That's like 24,000 fewer court appearances just as a result -- and that's a conservative assumption -- just as a result of this change. COMMISSIONER RAMSEY: Yes, sir. Well, I mean, but it saves you two ways. I mean, one, it's not just always 289 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc. overtime when you're in court, because sometimes officers are on their regular tour and they're not being compensated overtime. But it does put bodies back on the street. So either way, you're saving, because we have an awful lot of officers tied up sitting in court, waiting for a case to be called that, quite frankly, may not be called because of the volume of cases. In the meantime, you don't have that officer available for duty.
So your budget does not currently include any overtime savings as a result of this new policy by the DA; is that correct? DEPUTY COMMISSIONER GAITTENS: Just to give you an example, when we first heard about the --
I'm sorry, Deputy Commissioner. I just need a yes or no at the beginning of this. Your budget does not include -- DEPUTY COMMISSIONER GAITTENS: 290 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc. Not directly, but indirectly, yes, it is in there, because --
Were you aware of this policy when you prepared the budget? DEPUTY COMMISSIONER GAITTENS: We're going to decrease -- we were aware of the fact that we were trying to decrease overtime by any means possible, and then when we went into the Act 111 discussions with the union and we first heard about this two and a half times the regular rate penalty for the overnight court --
Do you think it's going to compensate for that essentially? DEPUTY COMMISSIONER GAITTENS: Yes, sir. That will offset that.
Thank you. The Chair recognizes 291 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc. Councilwoman Miller.
Thank you, Madam President. This new policy, I don't know that we're all very familiar with that, but is that the policy that the Prison Commissioner in his testimony said that he expects to have an increase in population due to changes in Municipal Court and the bail system? Is that the same thing? DEPUTY
No. 14 The Prisons Commissioner, Mr. Giorla, was referring to there is a -- there will be a renewed effort from the PPD trying to go out and get fugitives that we have to be anticipating. I mean, we are serious about getting that fugitive problem under control. We're trying to get and deal with a number of different partners, and that was one of the contingencies that the Prisons Commissioner was referring to. If we end up stepping up and having to bring people in and put them in jail, 292 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc. then he has to have space for them. So that's what he was referring to in his testimony, Councilwoman.
The bail system, that there has been a review for the past year that I've been working with various members of the CJAB talking about how can we end up changing the bail system that would enable it to get people to get to court, bottom line. There are a whole number of issues that are associated with our current situation. Currently, ten percent of bail is what you put up to be released from custody. If we go to full valuation, we would have to adjust the amount of money that people are getting for bail in order to make sure that the same numbers on a value basis would be eligible for the bail and get out. If we didn't, a $50,000 bail, if you have to put up $50,000 to get out, it would spike our 293 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc. prison population tremendously, when in fact what, in essence, is going on is that people with a $50,000 bail only put up 5,000, so it's really a $5,000 bail. So we'd have to adjust the entire criminal justice system to deal with that bail situation, but we are working towards that, because, quite frankly, we just can't do the same thing that we've been doing for a long time because we've got the result we have.
Thank you. Thank you for that explanation. Commissioner, over the weekend from Thursday, I'll just say, through Easter Sunday, there were a number of shootings in the City, but in particular in the districts that -- in the 8th Council District, 39th, 14th and 35th, and I don't have a list of all of them and I don't know all of them off the top of my head, but what is it that you need from the community? I mean, most of the community are not people involved in 294 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc. these shootings. COMMISSIONER RAMSEY: Right.
But the shootings are just really upsetting people in the neighborhoods. People continuously be shot. I want to at some point, not today, talk about the shooting at Happy Hollow Playground that's in my councilmanic district on Wayne Avenue. But what do you -- I don't really know how to answer people. There are a couple places we're going to have community meetings regarding the shooting, the high incidence of violence. There's one on Thursday night, and that was a shooting that took place in the 14th on Cliveden Street. So I just don't know. Right now I got a couple complaints about people. People are calling to say that some of the trouble areas where you have foot patrols or bike patrols, you know, the warm weather is coming and people are starting to come out, and people doing 295 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc. the wrong things are starting to come out more, and I would hope that those would be some of the areas where foot patrols are being targeted and placed. I just don't know. I mean, this has been going on forever. It's not new. Every spring we have the same problem here in Philadelphia, and I'm quite sure they have them around the country. But I think neighbors get frustrated. As elected officials, we breathe kind of hard to try to help people figure out what to do, how to do it, how to make their neighborhoods safe. Do you have any recommendations, I guess? COMMISSIONER RAMSEY: Well, I wish there was one thing I could say that would really, you know, just eliminate the problem, but there really isn't. But one thing that can be done and needs to be done is, people need to be able to provide information to us about people who are known to carry guns and who are violent out there on the street. 296 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc. Somebody knows who they are. They aren't coming from Mars. They're coming right from our own neighborhoods. And oftentimes, people are reluctant to pass on that information. And even if they don't do it directly, call the tip hotline, call your office, call somebody and let us know who these individuals are, so when we see them, we can stop them, we can make sure that they're not doing anything inappropriate, they're not carrying guns and so forth. Because you're right, I mean, the warm weather is starting. If this is any indication of what we're experiencing now already in early April in the 80's, I mean, this could be a very warm summer, so we need to all be concerned about that, but it's easy to get a handle on it if you know who it is that's out there causing problems. And it's a minority of people that are. It's just a question of getting the right people identified so that we can take the appropriate action. 297 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc.
Well, you know, I was one of the big proponents here of video surveillance cameras, and one thing, you put the camera up and then they move and then they move somewhere else also, so that causes more and more people, but -- more and more problems. But I kind of think if the police were there more or on a consistent basis, just the mere site of the police would help keep these guys moving. We can do our part in maybe trying to direct some of them into job training programs and those kind of positive or educational programs, those kind of positive activities if they will take our suggestion, but I think it becomes very frustrating when nothing seems to happen. And I'm not saying nothing is happening, but they're there every day like it's a job. They go around to a particular street or a particular corner every day like I come to work, and we just need to break that up. 298 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc. COMMISSIONER RAMSEY: I don't disagree with you, and one of the things I hope we accomplish through our Police Service Areas, by having consistent officers assigned every day, those problems become well known, they know it's their problem, they have to deal with it on a regular basis. So it's not -- don't drive by it, because it's going to be there for you tomorrow, too. So you need to be able to deal with it effectively, and that's what I hope we can accomplish through having officers assigned to regular areas on a regular basis, working with the community to problem-solve these chronic problems and so forth, coming up with some solutions that can be long lasting, so we don't go through this year after year after year, same problems.
Right. Another question. In my district at one of the high schools, there are hundreds of children that walk to a bus stop, so, 299 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc. of course, because flash mob has now become a popular term, I don't want these kids labeled as flash mobbers. They're just going down the street to get the bus to go home from school, but congregate a little bit. I know as a teenager I enjoyed seeing my friends after school. When the weather was warm, we could just walk around and just talk a little bit. But do you work along with schools or anyone from the Police Department work along with schools when they need maybe SEPTA? I mean, I'm going to help them with trying to get SEPTA to come to the actual school rather than to have the children walk a few blocks down the street, because it makes it look flash mobby and it's really not. COMMISSIONER RAMSEY: Well, we do work with the SEPTA and we work with the schools. We've been able to make some adjustments in terms of bus scheduling when we had conflicts between schools and so forth. 300 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc. This whole term, "flash mob," is not one I'm particularly fond of, but it's one that I guess we're stuck with now that's kind of been labeled that way. But, again, when you have officers assigned on a regular basis to a given location, they can tell the difference between a bunch of kids leaving basketball practice versus a bunch of kids out there ready to do something that's wrong, because you know the kids too, and you avoid a lot of issues and you avoid a lot of problems. We don't have a problem with kids coming out in large numbers to enjoy a nice warm day. What we object to is people that think that they can then create property damage or assault other people or whatever. So the answer to your question is, yes, we do work with those agencies. We'll continue to work with them, and hopefully by having officers assigned on a consistent basis in geographical areas, 301 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc. they'll come to know all the residents of that area and better be able to deal with any issues that come up, whether it's young people or not.
One other thing. On police overtime, have you worked with the DA's Office maybe to have the officers on call rather than just sit in the Criminal Justice Center waiting? COMMISSIONER RAMSEY: Yes, we have. I mean, not just the DA's Office, but the courts as well, trying to do anything we can to minimize, but there are times when a case is called and the judge wants that officer there. And we have officers sometimes in multiple courts at the same time because they make a lot of arrests and work out something where an officer can be in the court handling multiple things and they'll hold it until they can get back to that particular courtroom where the case is being tried. So we're exploring a lot of 302 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc. different ways in which we can minimize not just overtime. Again, I lose officers on the street, and that to me is as big a concern as the overtime is, because you'd rather have them on the street than sitting in a courtroom waiting for a case to be called. So I think the problem is really twofold, and a solution to that really helps us two ways.
Right. I mean, I think it's important too to have officers on the street. I do have a lot of questions, Council President, but I know my time is probably up soon, if not already.
Thank you, Madam President. Good afternoon, gentlemen. (Good afternoon.)
First, 303 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc. Commissioner, I'd just like to commend you individually for your willingness to make a tough call decision both internally and externally. I've watched you since you've been here and you're willing to make that tough call. COMMISSIONER RAMSEY: Thank you.
That has not been missed. I'd like to briefly get into one of my favorite subjects. I know Jack is saying, Here he comes with those cameras. You're right, Jack. I want to kind of get a handle on this.
See, this is what I have to go through, right? I can't help it if I represent Broad Street. But I kind of -- can we kind of talk through first in terms of the 304 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc. resources put forth to implement the camera program recently, because I understand now we have various sources that initially was just the City's General Fund. We put some money in. We had some challenges early on operationally, but I think since then, we're in a position where there's some additional sources of funding. Can you kind of talk me through so I can have a sense of where whatever resources are coming to the table, and then I want to, if I have time, I want to follow up on some of the operational issues. DEPUTY COMMISSIONER GAITTENS: I can give you an update on where we are with the cameras right now. For the City cameras, there are a total of 208 up right now. We've also made connections with other sources for cameras. We have four in City Hall, 42 from PennDOT, 13 from PHA, 566 from SEPTA, 12 from the Streets Department. So that's an 305 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc. additional 637 external cameras that we can view, along with the City's 208. So that gives us a total capability of 845 cameras right now. Through the efforts of Congressman Chaka Fattah, we were able to get a grant for critical infrastructure through the City, and that is going to be a partnership, multi-agency partnership, with the feds and SEPTA, Amtrak and a few other agencies, the Delaware River Port Authority and the Bridge Commission. We will be trying to set up cameras to protect critical infrastructure throughout the City. And Deputy Mayor Gillison also sent a letter to the grantors trying to add some more of the historical sites in Philadelphia. So this may give us an additional anywhere from 200 to 400 more cameras that we will be able to monitor from our video monitoring center. The Deputy Mayor can talk about the funding source. DEPUTY
Yes. 306 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc. Basically -- Deputy Mayor Gillison. Basically it's been the grants from working in partnership with Congressman Fattah. We are hoping to even -- I've actually requested again that we get additional money, and because of our homeland security being raised from a Tier 2 to a Tier 1, we're exploring additional revenue and additional grants to pull up and even more grants that would end up having more cameras available to us with that as well and, quite frankly, some of the other discussions you and I have had basically from this table. Going forward, we want to try the Chicago method and force multiply where we ask businesses to partner with us as well and have them provide digital cameras at their location, and they would obviously pay for it, but they would give the Police Department the permission because they're web based to actually go into and just activate the camera 307 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc. whenever we would need to see what was going on in that area. Chicago has somewhere around 3,000 cameras, I believe, if I understand their positioning correctly. And one of the things that that's doing, along with DOT, is that we want to now get into facial recognition software and automate this, so we don't just have police officers sitting, but there will actually be the ability to have the software monitor different things that are going on and bring an officer's attention to an issue as we really expand this and get thousands of cameras up. So that's the plan, that's how we're going, and that's how we're going to pay for it.
Okay. I have some follow-up questions operationally. We have the potential -- and make sure I understand this -- 800 cameras in various ownership that are fed to the Police Administration Building? 308 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc. DEPUTY
And this is the difficult, challenging part, and I hate to ask this question in public. In terms of our ability to adequately staff our monitoring station, where are we at with that? I think that's where our problem is. COMMISSIONER RAMSEY: Well, you can't monitor that many cameras. The key to the cameras is, one, that they're recorded, so that should something occur, you do have now potential evidence that can be used to find the individual or individuals responsible for the particular crime that took place. There may be some indication at times when a particular activity is taking place in a given time and that one you would want to live monitor. There could be an event going on in the City. There could be some intelligence that something is going to happen in a given area, and then you 309 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc. might want to live monitor. But I do not think it's an efficient use of police officers or police resources to have someone sitting 24/7 live monitoring that many cameras. You can do it with a small amount, but when you start to get that many cameras, then what you have to do is pretty much be able to turn the camera on when it's needed. So if they're connected to 9-1-1, for example, if a call comes in to 9-1-1 and it's at a given area, 18th and Montgomery, you got a camera there, that camera right away -- in fact, the dispatcher could even pull it up and see what's going on at the same time someone in the Realtime Crime Center or something could be seeing it as well. Those kinds of capabilities would be something that would be very good. The Deputy Mayor mentioned the Chicago model. They've actually got a very strong wireless network. An officer sitting in his car can pull a camera up right on his mobile data terminal, can 310 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc. actually see it right there and be sitting a few blocks away and see what's going on.
In Baltimore they call it the "football." COMMISSIONER RAMSEY: Yeah. Particularly good when it comes to monitoring drug trafficking and doing the surveillance and so forth. So there are a variety of ways of doing it, but the more we expand, it becomes increasingly difficult and impossible actually to be able to monitor. And we don't want people thinking that we're going to be looking at 800 cameras hours a day, seven days 18 a week. We just don't have the resources 19 to do that. 20
Right. And 21 I understand that, believe me, more so 22 than a number of people. 23 One of the things that -- and 24 Deputy was part of that process early on when we went out and looked at some of 311 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc. the sites. The thing that most intrigued us, some of the people that represent some of the more challenging areas just for purposes of the environment, not necessarily a crime actually being committed, we wanted to get into a real preventive measure, and understanding your limitations in terms of being able to have people watch on a consistent basis, it would be helpful if we can talk in very specific terms -- not necessarily today, because we're limited with time -- about a strategy that in a very preventive way -- and you referenced earlier flash mobs, if you had the ability to see a group of people, as you say, there's recognition of mobs and groups and people coming from basketball games, that you can prevent those crimes. Because at the end of the day, I think all of us would rather put the necessary resources in preventing a crime instead of having the crime committed. And, yes, we have a committed -- yes, we have it 312 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc. recorded. Yes, we closed the deal on the court case because we have a very graphic video. Our preference is to never have it happen. So at a later time or through the Chair, however you can allow, a very specific strategy, assuming that resources were enhanced, because I know we don't have a lot of money, but I really -- and the reason why I say that, because in the early stages of the implementation, the Deputy and the people working with him, they identified some areas in my Council district that I can speak of. I looked at them. I said, man, this is like 90 percent of the spots that I know about. You know, they were right on. And they calmed those neighborhoods and they created an environment where people just knew the camera wasn't being watched -- they didn't know, but the knuckleheads thought that they were being watched. So this created a different environment. Time is going on and I think some of them 313 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc. understand, nobody is really watching, and I'm a little worried about that whole understanding of what we're doing being carried out to the wrong people. So if we could have a selective process in a random basis, people understood that there will be live feeds in these various locations. COMMISSIONER RAMSEY: Well, there's no question there will be some live monitoring of cameras, and that will continue. And the bad guys don't know when you're watching and when you're not watching, but they'll have to be selective and they'll have to move it around a bit, simply because of some other concerns. But it will be some live monitoring. That we're not going to get rid of.
And obviously we don't want to talk about it 314 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc. in a public forum, because the bad guys watch Channel 64 also. At some point can we kind of talk about a way that we can enhance -- I mean, I kind of have a sense of how many people are actually working down there, but we can enhance the ability -- and the last thing I want to have is a police officer watching a monitor, because they're better served out on the street for all of us -- enhance the ability to have that live feed in various locations throughout the process, that will be very helpful.
Councilman, excuse me. I believe Councilwoman Miller is asking for a point of information.
It's a point of information. I just have two questions.
I'm sorry. Okay. 315 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc.
Okay. I just have two questions about the video surveillance cameras. How many are operable in the neighborhoods by Council district -- and perhaps you could send this information to Council President Verna -- and how many are not. Some have that plastic bags up and I just want to know when we're going to get those working. DEPUTY
Thank you, Madam President. And also from an operational perspective -- and we probably don't want to talk about this here publicly -- this whole notion of cameras -- and I 316 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc. understand that this is to supplement the Police Department, not to replace, but my limited knowledge of this is that there's an operational component of camera placement, not just simply putting a camera up and walking away, that there are patterns developed as a result of cameras, particularly when you have live cameras and response is based on cameras. Is there someone within the Department that's working on or have worked on how you respond in terms of your deployment to camera placement and the displacement as a result of camera placement in a very aggressive way? You put a camera at 32nd and Diamond, those guys are gone, right? And they move to 31st and Fontain, right? And, boom. I call you up, boom, put a camera there, right? They move from there. Now they're on Berks Street. And I guess somewhere down the line in private if we can kind of talk about how does that affect your ability to 317 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc. basically limit the opportunities for people doing bad things. COMMISSIONER RAMSEY: Well, again, Councilman, I go back to the Police Service Area model. Having officers assigned to geographical areas on a regular basis, they know when that displacement occurs and they know exactly where they went, and they'll go there with them. So there's no one thing that's going to be the magic formula here. Cameras can only do so much. It still takes a person to get out there on patrol, see what's going on and take action. And they'll be able to see that pretty quickly, because when 32nd and Diamond clears up, you know they went somewhere. They didn't -- so it won't take long to find out where they went. Then we have to come up with a different strategy or tactic in that particular area. You may notice something going 318 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc. on on a camera that then you may say, We need an undercover operation to take place at that particular location, and we'll implement an undercover operation to deal with drug trafficking or whatever might be going on. So there are a variety of things that we'll do as a result of information we pick up from various forms of patrol, and I consider surveillance cameras being just one more form of police patrol.
One last question on cameras. It's my understanding that some of the funding sources go to different departments, and correct me if I'm wrong. The homeland security money coming in goes to a particular department, Police Department. Money from the General Fund may go into the Technology Division and therefore. Is there a process that ensures that the implementation or basically the funding is consolidated in a way that it 319 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc. maximizes opportunities? And this is a sign of some little inside stuff that I'm hearing, and I probably shouldn't be talking about this in a very public way. I'll ask the question like this: All of the resources that come to bear for cameras, be it purchase, deployment, technology, at the end of the day does it all end up in one place where a group or an individual or a committee makes a determination on the expenditures? DEPUTY
Can I go 320 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc. on? Is my time --
Thank you. Good afternoon. I want to also acknowledge the great work that's been done by the Police Department and thank you all for your leadership in that regard. I wanted to talk a little bit about -- obviously a great supporter of the PSAs and the intent and where we want to go, but I wanted to talk a little bit about our chronic street corners where there is selling and there has been kind of these institutional corners that we have in neighborhoods. And I've yet to kind of hear an articulation of what is our long-term strategy for them, 321 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc. particularly in places where now the elements own several properties in that particular block, so it's hard to tell somebody not to sit on their corner. Have we totally gone away from the notion of looking at limiting loitering in certain corners that we understand are chronic, and, if not, what is our game plan? COMMISSIONER RAMSEY: Yes, Councilwoman. The need for consistent enforcement is really what you're referring to, and whether it's asking people to move along that are loitering on corners or whether or not it's dealing with nuisance properties and using nuisance abatement type laws in order to deal with that sort of thing, that all comes about through PSAs and problem-solving, meeting with community and working together to try to resolve some of these issues, but you have to have consistent enforcement. I mean, these are very, very difficult things to 322 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc. eliminate, drug trafficking areas that have been around for in some cases decades, but it's not impossible. But it takes a great deal of consistent enforcement, and then it takes the other part of it, which is treatment, prevention and all those kinds of things to fit in if you're going to have real long-term impact on it. So, yeah, that's all part of the problem-solving process. That's all part of what will be handed off from one group of officers to another in what I'm hoping through to action plans that we write now. And they have to actually write real action plans, here's the problem, here's what I'm doing about it, here's what I hope to accomplish. So that those strategies and those plans can be passed along so you don't have something today we enforce something real heavily, tomorrow we don't, today we do, two weeks later we don't. I mean, you've got to have consistency if we want to 323 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc. start having some real improvement in any of our neighborhoods. But, again, it takes neighborhood cooperation too with people that sometimes know what's going on, reluctant to say anything. Sometimes it's their own family members that are involved and they're reluctant to say anything.
And that's my concern a little bit with the PSAs. The issue is, we know who these drug dealers are. They've grown up there. They live there. I'm one that goes to many meetings where I see the mother and the grandmother sitting in the room, and people want you to talk to them about some of these issues. I never do. My issue is, look, I live -- in most of these cases, some of these are in my own neighborhood. But I just think we need to think about something else to do in these corners. It's too slow, and I have some 324 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc. corners that we just -- again, the Captain, when I call the Captain, how many guys you got out on sick? I know there's an issue of manpower. There just seems to be for me nothing that we're doing that's different or new. When we had Operation Safe Streets, clearly there was a tactical move. You did something. I haven't seen that, and I'm frustrated because they're still there and I almost feel like they laugh in my face because they know. And so I just think we need to come up with something, and I'm just extremely frustrated. And I don't want to pass the buck. I just think if it's legislatively, if we say you can't hang in this particular corner, I mean, whatever it is, I just think we need to come up with it. And just in the last few days where you see the weather get better, you just see this coming up again, and to me, the notion that there is a corner where there are 20 guys and 325 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc. everybody knows what they're doing and it's okay is just so problematic and I don't -- I don't know what else to tell constituents. And I drive by these corners all the time. People call and say, Maria, there's guys out there. 8 There's a cop car, you know, down the 9 street. 10 So I guess my concern for the 11 summer is, are we -- does your budget 12 allow for some of the beat cops and some 13 of the things that we did that in certain 14 areas it did have a tremendous impact? 15 In Fairhill, I know in Hartranft that we 16 share some areas, those beat cops made a 17 difference. Are we going to be able to 18 do that this summer? 19 COMMISSIONER RAMSEY: Yes, 20 ma'am, we will. As far as the foot 21 patrol beat cops, Operation Pressure 22 Point starts up again April 9th, this 23 weekend. That was very effective last 24 year, and we'll continue to do that. 25 That's when we have 17 different agencies 326 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc. come in and give us a hand. So there'll be a lot of things we're doing, not just in the warmer months but year round in order to try to get a handle on these particular problems that you're describing. But, again, I'm not going to promise you an easy solution to it, because it's not an easy solution to it, but we are using all the resources we do have at our disposal. And it's not a budgetary issue as much as it is just consistency in terms of our targeting and our enforcement. But people then have to be able to stand up and support us when we do that, because as soon as you stop two or three people, then somebody is calling up beefing that we're profiling somebody or we're doing whatever, harassing them and this, that and the other, and that becomes a different issue. So what we need is real community support. Not halfway, but full support. That doesn't give officers the right to 327 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc. do things illegally or improperly, but certainly if people understand what you're doing, why you're doing it, then we certainly need the community support as well.
So you don't see us needing any other type of legislative or policy to allow us to do greater enforcement? COMMISSIONER RAMSEY: There could be, but loitering is a difficult thing, because loitering ordinances in many jurisdictions have been struck down as being unconstitutional. So there's a lot of things you can pass. Whether they withstand any kind of legal test is a different issue. It's very hard. That's been a problem for decades, not just here but a lot of different places when you start locking people up for standing on a corner if there's nothing else associated with it. Our Deputy Mayor here is nodding his head in the affirmative. 328 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc.
I'm a civil liberties person, but I think that we've taken that to the extreme where we have neighborhoods that -- COMMISSIONER RAMSEY: I understand.
This has to stop. COMMISSIONER RAMSEY: Believe me, I'm with you. I understand, but we have to work within the law.
Well, that's what I'm saying, what other hammers do you need? And I guess I've not seen anything different about what other types of hammers we might potentially be able to use or don't have that we need to use to tackle this problem. So that's what I'm looking for. And I think the PSAs will get us some better dialogue with the community and stuff, but ultimately -- DEPUTY
The key, Councilwoman -- Deputy Mayor Everett Gillison. The key, Councilwoman, really is where you're coming back. We have the tools basically, but the key to anyone taking back, quote/unquote, the community that they live in is to be involved in it, to be seen in it and to work with the Police to make sure that we go and get the kind of community that we want to live in. And when people get frustrated and stay inside, then we get what we have. If people get frustrated and come outside and work with the Police and really just make their presence known, the PSAs that we're trying to really flesh out, that's how we end up getting back having the community that we all want. So that's really it. I mean, I understand the frustration. I can hear it in your 330 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc. voice. Believe me, I understand it.
I've threatened to take Ramsey and the Mayor by with me. One of these days I'm going to pick you guys up. And I know Captain Wright knows all the corners, because they're still there -- or Commissioner Wright. They're still there. I just think that we need to think of something. DEPUTY
It's alternatives. Sometimes depending on who those persons are, if they've been there for ten years, those guys ain't going to leave. But if you kind of can cut off the young ones, if we aim and have the strategy, which I believe we do, to get the young ones and get them out, then you actually -- you can actually deal with that, but we have to have the community support. That's really what it's about, and that's what the PSA entire model is.
For instance, when you take certain corners that we know, we lock up some of the 331 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc. middle guys, they lease out the corner. I mean, the fact that you have folks who can talk about this industry in a way that you sublet a corner out because so-and-so is in jail and all these direct connections, it's just very frustrating, because I know information about stuff that I wish I never knew, and I just feel like it's too clear out there for us not to be able to tackle. I just want to be helpful and I just think if we have the tools, then let's use then. If we don't have the tools and there's something else we need to add, then I'd like to know about that, because I want to be an advocate. I just think that this has been unacceptable. And I represent a district where there are corners that people just know. And so we have to -- we're using all the tools, whether it's the take-outs and using our enforcement when licenses come up. I mean, I'm doing everything I possibly can in every other way. So I'm just saying, if there's 332 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc. something else, then we need to be doing it. I don't know what that is, but I just think that it's unacceptable. And sometimes I get this notion of if we contain it in one area, then that's fine and then everything else is fine and not consider the people in those areas. Because that's what I see sometimes, our strategy becomes you contain it, so you put a camera here -- by the way, I don't have a quarter of the cameras this guy has. So I'm just looking for those. And if we want to ask businesses to participate by doing cameras, then let's talk about that. If we can provide tax incentives to do that, then we want to do that here in Council. We want to give you all those additional tools, but there has to be this sense of urgency on this. I mean, I've only been in office two years. It's just very difficult, and I don't know what else to do to help you do that. 333 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc. COMMISSIONER RAMSEY: Well, one thing, too, I just want to make sure that it is understood by everybody, we don't think crime is fine anywhere and it's not acceptable anywhere. It's more difficult to eradicate in some places than it is other places because it's so deeply engrained, but it's not okay. And if we've got a situation where you've got somebody who is leasing space to sell drugs or doing other things, there are federal laws that we can then start to use, because now you're talking about organized criminal conspiracies and things of that nature. So we can kick it up to another level. But, again, it takes information from the public in order to be able to build those kinds of cases, but it is doable. But we certainly don't think it's okay in any neighborhood to have that sort of thing going on. We really don't. But it's really going to take neighborhoods to help us take neighborhoods back. 334 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc.
You're welcome. The Chair recognizes Councilman Greenlee.
Thank you, Madam President. Quickly, I just had a question regarding the relationship with -- I was thinking particularly of PHA police, but some of the others, SEPTA police, university police. Is there some kind of special working relationship there or is there something when a call comes in, say, at a PHA facility, that they have like a special way to get to the police or do they -- does the PHA officer have to just call 9-1-1? COMMISSIONER RAMSEY: Well, PHA, unfortunately, had such severe cutbacks in their workforce that there just aren't that many of them. So we do work together, but, quite frankly, it's 335 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc. just not enough of them to be able to cover the number of units and areas that they need to cover. That's just reality. So we do have a working relationship, but a lot of it does fall on us, simply because they just can't handle it. We do work very closely with SEPTA on a regular basis. There's always a lot of issues that involve SEPTA, whether we're talking about crime committed on SEPTA or on a platform or just transporting, for an example, again, these large groups of kids that have suddenly popped up different places. They get there by public transportation. So working with SEPTA to let us know when they see unusual numbers of people on the line getting off at a particular area, let us know, give us a heads-up, because that could be the beginnings of something like that and we get a jump on it. So we do have a very, very good relationship with both PHA and with SEPTA and other law enforcement agencies. I've 336 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc. only been here a couple years myself and I'm really very pleased with the amount of cooperation we have both in the City and regionally.
Again, I'm thinking a university like Temple University. COMMISSIONER RAMSEY: University police. In fact, Temple, University of Pennsylvania, I mean, these are sizable departments and they're a huge help to us in the neighborhoods that they're located in. They take a tremendous burden off us, and we do a lot of coordinated crime-fighting.
What arresting ability do some of these entities -- and I've seen -- SEPTA police can actually arrest somebody, right? COMMISSIONER RAMSEY: Yeah. Yeah.
Can these other entities do that? COMMISSIONER RAMSEY: Yes, they 337 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc. can.
You're welcome. The last but not least, Councilman Clarke.
Thank you, Madam President. Just real quickly. Follow-up on Councilwoman Sanchez's question earlier, and, Commissioner, you may remember. My understanding in Chicago there was a law passed ten years ago that designated corners -- there was a term and it was documented corners for gang activity -- COMMISSIONER RAMSEY: Right, gang corners.
-- that allowed the police proactively to move people based on the designation of this corner. Did that end up passing muster? 338 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc. COMMISSIONER RAMSEY: I don't know if it was upheld over time. It was when I left. It was the gang ordinance 5 they called it, and it required -- you had to document certain areas and crime that had taken place over time at that area. When you went there, you had to provide warnings to individuals to get off the corner or be subject to arrest. I think you had to warn them two times or so, or else they'd be subject to arrest. If they moved, then you couldn't do anything to them. If they didn't move and you came back, then you could. But that was called the gang ordinance. I've been away from Chicago now 12 years, so I'm not quite sure if that's still active or not, but that's one you might want to consider at least looking into. And it did work in many of the more troubled areas. There was a lot of background work you had to do, but that's okay, because it's pretty well documented. Like Councilwoman Sanchez is 339 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc. saying, some of these corners, it's not like it goes away or that you can't easily document what's going on. But, yeah, that was a pretty good ordinance.
Okay. Yeah. I remember at one point we were considering it here, but there was no 9 appetite for -- bottom line, I couldn't get nine votes for it, so it didn't pass. Real quickly, on the PSAs -- and I think it's actually a good model in terms of the intent. My understanding when I went to my first PSA meeting with Captain Cram -- it was a good meeting, a real good guy -- I got the impression that it was being driven by the Managing Director's Office. That's the way it was rolled out at the time, although the Police were taking a lead. COMMISSIONER RAMSEY: I understand where the confusion has come in. The 26th District happened to be a pilot for a variety of things that we were doing, and one of the things that 340 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc. the Managing Director wants to do is to take PSAs, Police Service Areas, and create public service areas where you not only have police geographically based, but all City services more geographically based, and we used the 26th District as a pilot for that. So when you had the meeting out there, when they say PSA, they were actually saying public service area, because that's where we started to try to have whether it was Streets, L&I, whatever it might be, to have some geographical accountability for delivering services as well. Now, that's the only district right now that is doing that, but we are looking at rolling that out, and other cities have found that's an effective way of delivering services in general, not just police services, but services in general, because then you can go to a specific person if you've got a specific area that's not being taken care of properly and you know exactly who is 341 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc. responsible for it as opposed to larger areas where it's kind of hard to put your finger on a person who should be doing whatever it is you want them to do. So that's where the 26th District kind of came in a little bit and may have confused the situation.
Okay. And I like the concept of providing additional services, because, one, the people feel comfortable coming to the meeting because they know that the Police are going to be there, so you'll probably get a larger turnout, but, two, the ability to provide other alternatives, because at the end of the day, you can't turn a neighborhood around without providing all these other services. You can have as many police as you want. It will help. The 23rd District as an example, there's been a marked improvement. The reality is that we basically demolished half of the blighted community and built 300 brand new homes, 342 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc. and that's why, in large part, that district has changed, because the whole demographics and the environment has changed. So when I asked the question earlier, I was just thinking about our ability to interact if we expanded the PSAs to include potential job opportunities and educational opportunities, because at the end of the day, these young guys, they don't have anything else to do. They want a job, but they're not adequately educated. I know hopefully in the next week or two we'll get notice from the stimulus program we're going to be able to hire 5,000 people on a temporary basis, but $13 an hour, you know, to do various things. I think it will be helpful to build that relationship with the people that are the problem, because you all have a good relationship with the people that are not the problem. They like the Police, the whole PDACS. I mean, they tend to be the same people that are block 343 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc. captains, committee people. It's the element that we can't figure out a way to get them in the room. So if we expand that to include things that these guys may be interested in, education or job opportunities or GEDs, whatever, if we can incorporate that into the PSA to kind of build that relationship. Right now, speaking of the 26th, Captain Cram is trying to put the PAL in Hartranft School. Unfortunately, for whatever reason, the school is trying to charge him. And I'm going to deal with that. That's kind of bizarre. But I'm saying, that's already building a positive relationship with the guys that more likely would be in a situation where they might be a challenge. So if we can look at that in a more aggressive way, I'd be willing -- I mean, housing services, I know the Housing Authority is thinking about creating a program where we can provide housing opportunities to 344 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc. some men, because at the end of the day, we've always focused on women, and that's important, but at the end of the day, maybe if you get this guy a house somewhere, a unit, he might be a little more productive and be more responsible. You know what I mean? So I'd like to see, if it's all possible, we can work together and expand that PSA model to incorporate some of those other things. COMMISSIONER RAMSEY: I look forward to it. I think you're on the right track. I think it's absolutely the way to go.
Yes. Councilwoman Sanchez. 345 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc.
I had asked Deputy Mayor Gillison, so for the record, I want to ask it for the Police Department. We've had some challenges obviously with the payment of police as it relates to special events. So I wanted for the record to ask, in the case of police expenses, does the Phillies, the Eagles, concert promoters, do they pay dollar for dollar for police time? DEPUTY
I want to see that. What's the agreement with the Eagles and stuff? Don't they take care of everything inside and we take care of everything outside? DEPUTY
I've been working on the interpretation of the both Phillies, Eagles, Sixers, whatever. We are working. There has been a 346 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc. historic agreement where they pay full time for officers basically to work on the inside and then on the outside, then there was -- we used to bill them for the traffic flows on the outside. We have changed our approach to it, where we're now trying to provide as many straight-time officers, consistent with our change in policies this year, and then they are only being asked to pick up the overtime. But depending on the force and depending on the availability of officers, that number sometimes goes up, because we don't have officers for straight time. They have to basically purchase the services for overtime.
Yes, it is. I'm trying to get it into a formula so that I'll be able to just give that to everybody and across the board everybody will be able to see that, but I'm still working on the specifics for all the 347 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc. agreements to make sure that each of the agreements represent the intent of what I'm trying to get done. So the answer is, yes, it is dollar for dollar and it applies to everyone.
Okay. If you could supply a table to that effect, because I'd like to see what they pay. DEPUTY
I'm still working on the table that you gave me to work on. So I'm working on all that, Councilwoman. Thank you very much.
Thank you. Any further questions from members of the Committee? (No response.)
Seeing none, thank you very much. COMMISSIONER RAMSEY: Thank you, ma'am. 348 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc.
You've been extremely, extremely patient. COMMISSIONER RAMSEY: Thank you.
Thank you. This Committee will stand in recess until tomorrow morning, Wednesday, April the 7th at 10:00 a.m. Thank you all very much. (Committee of the Whole recessed at 5:05 p.m.) - - - 349 CERTIFICATE I HEREBY CERTIFY that the proceedings, evidence and objections are contained fully and accurately in the stenographic notes taken by me upon the foregoing matter on April 6, 2010, and that this is a true and correct transcript of same. ______________________________ MICHELE L. MURPHY RPR-Notary Public (The foregoing certification of this transcript does not apply to any reproduction of the same by any means, unless under the direct control and/or supervision of the certifying reporter.)