Seeing no one, thank you very much, gentlemen. DEPUTY
-- will stand in recess until 1:30. Thank you. (Luncheon recess.)
Good afternoon, everyone. This is a continued public hearing of the Committee of the Whole. We will now hear from the Department of Prisons. (Witnesses approached witness 126 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc. table.)
Kindly identify yourself for the record and proceed with your testimony. COMMISSIONER GIORLA: Good afternoon, Council President Verna and members of City Council. I am Lou Giorla, Commissioner of the Philadelphia Prison System. I am here today with several members of the Prison System senior staff to testify in support of our Fiscal 2011 Operating Budget. I am pleased to advise this body that as of March 17, 2010, the Prisons had a census of 8,439 individuals. One year ago on the same date in 2009, the number of inmates housed in all Prison facilities numbered 9,453 individuals. As a result, the Prisons' budget request for FY2011 is $9 127 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc. million less than the agency's FY2010 request of $248 million. This is the largest reduction out of any other department in the City for FY11. For Fiscal 2011, the Prison requests the following: In Class 100, $123,558,000 for salaries; in Class 200, $110,010,000 for contracted services; in Class 300 and 400, $4,768,000 for supplies and equipment; in Class 500, $1,301,000 for indemnities contributions. There are a number of reasons for a reduction in the target budget as well as the prison population. For example, recent procedural changes by the First Judicial District, which now allows defendants with several cases to appear before one judge on all matters. The same protocol was adopted for parole and probation violators who have been returned to custody. This resulted in a decreased length of stay and faster case disposition for those confined to the Prisons. 128 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc. In addition, the Philadelphia Prison System worked with the member agencies of the Criminal Justice Advisory Board and the Deputy Mayor of Public Safety's Office of Prison Population Management to transfer nearly 300 inmates with state sentences to state custody. Finally, the Prisons have seen a small but significant reduction in admissions resulting from the Police Department's success in cutting the City's crime rates. Within the Department, efficiencies have been enacted as well. Over the last months, we have reduced 17 the number of correctional officer 18 vacancies, resulting in a net savings of $2 million in Class 100 and an overall overtime reduction of $4 million. Meanwhile, sick time for correctional officers declined by nearly percent, 23 which again helps us better manage staff 24 deployment and reduce overtime costs. 25 Other changes that we have 129 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc. enacted help us to do our jobs better and lower the rates of recidivism, which will decrease our costs in the long term. For example, every Prison facility in the State Road complex is now equipped with a video station linked with video-capable courtrooms at the Criminal Justice Center. This innovation is reducing the number of inmates who must appear daily at the courthouse, reducing transportation costs and minimizing the risk to public safety. While custody and control are the two major responsibilities of the Prisons, care is the third and equally important facet of our mission. In Calendar 2009, GEDs, general equivalency diplomas, issued to inmates numbered 320, a percent increase from 2007. The 21 Prisons Horticulture program worked with 22 the Pennsylvania Horticulture Society's 23 Philadelphia Green program and produced 24 13,000 pounds of fresh produce for 25 community food banks since its inception 130 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc. in 2006. Over the last two years, the Prisons has decreased -- I'm sorry; has increased the number of sentenced inmates involved in programming from 36 percent to over 78 percent. The newly opened Office of Reintegration Services for Ex-Offenders, or RISE, is now working directly with Philadelphia Prisons inmates to provide job training, placement and community support. Programming begins while offenders are still in custody and does not wait until they are released.
Of the 480 ex-offenders enrolled in the Fiscal Year 2010, only seven have recidivated. During this fiscal year, PPS plans to institute a program of Day Reporting where offenders can access treatment while in the community. The intent is to reduce the number of technical and direct violations of probation and parole, a major driver of surging jail populations nationwide. Because of the aforementioned 131 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc. prison population reduction, the Prisons were able to withdraw from expensive, out-of-state inmate housing contracts. Many of the temporary housing areas used to accommodate the high population have been closed. Triple cells have been greatly reduced. However, we are still operating above our design capacities at most jails. However, during this fiscal year, planning will begin to renovate the former Prisons site on Torresdale Avenue to create as many as 600 new beds. When completed, the site will relieve our older facilities and create swing space needed to prepare for the replacement of our oldest jail, the House of Correction. The Prisons are also a major contractor of services. In Fiscal Year '11, the Prisons anticipated for-profit contract obligations total $71,379,000. Of those contracts, 33 percent, or over $23 million, will be disbursed to minority, women or disabled business 132 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc. enterprises, exceeding the City's goals of percent participation. Attached to 4 this testimony is a table showing the 5 Prisons expected minority, women or 6 disabled business enterprise 7 participation for Fiscal 2011. 8 In consideration of the 9 proposed seven and a half percent cuts 10 for City departments, also attached are 11 typical examples of how the Prisons' 12 proposed budget would be affected. Such 13 a reduction would force the cancellation 14 of Prison-funded reentry programs, 15 vocational training and halt preventive 16 maintenance. 17 The summer, which traditionally 18 is accompanied by a marked prison 19 population increase, is near. Upcoming 20 changes in the Municipal Court's 21 preliminary hearing process, the bail 22 system and the looming fugitive crisis in 23 Philadelphia could result in increased 24 prison population levels in the near 25 future. The coming months will provide 133 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc. proof of whether these reforms and efficiencies have indeed taken hold. In the meantime, each and every Prison staff member will be committed to providing secure detention in an environment meant to foster successful reentry. Thank you for your attention and consideration. We will be happy to answer your questions at this time.
Thank you, Commissioner. On of your testimony, you state that you will begin to renovate the former Prisons site on Torresdale Avenue. Can you tell us the name of that facility? COMMISSIONER GIORLA: We haven't named the facility as yet. It was formerly -- it's within the footprint of the old Holmesburg Prison.
Oh, Holmesburg, okay. What type of renovations will be made and can you tell us where are these costs budgeted? 134 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc. COMMISSIONER GIORLA: Currently, we're looking at dormitory-style, multi-use housing, semi-permanent structures, which are Quonset hut or tent-like in shape. They're reinforced and they have HVAC, food service and laboratory facilities, and they can be erected pretty quickly.
What do you estimate the cost will be -- COMMISSIONER GIORLA: At this point in time --
-- to do the renovation? COMMISSIONER GIORLA: -- I don't have a firm cost estimate because it's still in development. We've looked at some figures. We looked at options of 600 beds, 480 beds or 360 beds. As far as the funding, we're going to seek to use funding that was formerly allocated for a secure juvenile detention facility in our State Road complex, because we have that population in a site where 135 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc. there's available program space and housing.
Is Councilwoman Krajewski aware of what's being proposed? COMMISSIONER GIORLA: Yes, Chairwoman, she is.
We have handled -- good afternoon. Good afternoon. Here she comes.
Your ears had to be ringing. I just asked if you were --
I don't think so. As soon as I walk in, this is the reception I get.
I was asking if you're aware that the 136 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc. Holmesburg Prison is going to be renovated.
We have met one time, but nothing conclusive. DEPUTY
They had talked to me one time and I suggested they talk to the community as well. DEPUTY
But I haven't heard from them since. Would you give me a briefing on what happened? DEPUTY
Absolutely. Good afternoon and good afternoon, Councilwoman.
Could 137 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc. you speak into the microphone. DEPUTY
Not a problem. Yes, we have met with the Councilwoman. We have also met with members of her staff to make sure she is aware of what's going on. She made a request of the Administration to both go out and meet with not only two of the civic associations that are close by. We have done that. I know the Commissioner has been out on many occasions. I'll allow him to speak to that as well. We've also been able to look at other information that the Councilwoman needed and members of her staff needed, and we provided that to both of them, and as she has stated, we have kept her up to date on everything that is going on, and when things become even more finalized, as I told her, we'll be getting another briefing. So we're moving this process slowly, but definitely surely going 138 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc. forward. And I thank the Councilwoman for working with us, knowing how far we have come in this short time.
Commissioner, as I said, apparently you don't know what the cost will be for the renovations. However, is there anything in the budget that would indicate a figure, whether it would be more or less? Nobody seems to know at this point in time. COMMISSIONER GIORLA: Our capital budget has an allocation for -- had an allocation in FY2009 for the juvenile facility, and I can supply the Chair with the exact figures. Somewhere 139 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc. in the vicinity of $12 and a half million, and that was the funding that was intended to be used for this project.
Mr. McPherson is just saying how could we appropriate the $12 and a half million for an adult facility when it was really earmarked for juveniles? DEPUTY
I can speak to that. The appropriation originally came through under the PICA matter and we are seeking a PICA approval. We know that the process begins and then we'll bring it back to Council. I mean, we're at literally -- I mean, when I said we were communicating, we're being transparent, we are. We're at the very beginning, and this is the process that we're going forward. That's what the Councilwoman had requested of us. That's what we're following. And this is part of where we're going because of the need to take out the oldest facility, which is Holmesburg -- which is 140 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc. House of Corrections. We are literally pouring a lot of money into a building that is now dating -- COMMISSIONER GIORLA: Well, it actually opened in 1854 and was renovated in 1927. DEPUTY
And as we've indicated to the Councilwoman, this facility that we're talking about is a transfer facility. It's not -- it would not be used hopefully long, but while we would take down the House of Correction.
I'm sorry. Point of order. I understand they're not permanent? DEPUTY
Right. That's right. That's correct. I mean, that's why this is not a, quote/unquote -- we're not putting up, you know, bricks and mortar. We're talking about, as you've you talked, almost like -- they're hardened tents basically. That's why we're able to do 141 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc. it for the amount of money that we're able to do it.
But, Madam Chairwoman, I just want to specify that this is nothing that has been settled completely. DEPUTY
I think everything is apparently making the proper steps to go forward and, Commissioner, you did say that you met with the area residents? COMMISSIONER GIORLA: I met with --
That's a very important component I'm sure to Councilwoman Krajewski's concerns. What was the reaction? COMMISSIONER GIORLA: When we met with the Councilwoman and her staff, they directed us to meet with the two local civic associations, the Holmesburg Civic Association, the Upper Holmesburg. 142 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc. I met with both of those groups a couple times, last year and this year, informed them of our plans. A couple members were unsure, there were a couple members that were opposed, but overall mainly the groups just wanted to know what we were doing, what our intentions were. We tried to explain that this will allow us to renovate older facilities or replace older facilities that are costing us far too much money, giving us the eventual possibility of moving our entire operation back to State Road where operationally it would be much more efficient, and we have to have some type of transition. We need some type of transition.
Well, I would strongly urge you to please, please keep in close contact with Councilwoman Krajewski every step of the way. DEPUTY
Absolutely. That's the promise that I've 143 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc. made, and as she has been known to when I approach, she looks and she says, Okay -- when I come to her office, she says, Okay, I know that I'm getting my update now, come on in. And you got to be ready, and I says, I'm ready, Councilwoman, here's the update and this is where we are and what we're doing. So we've done that and we will continue to do that.
But you didn't mention I was going to throw you out of the office. DEPUTY
Commissioner, you mention on your testimony that you are preparing for the replacement of the House of Corrections. Can you tell us when you hope to replace it and the funding that has been included in the Five Year Plan 144 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc. for its replacement? COMMISSIONER GIORLA: Council President, at this time we don't have a set plan to replace the House of Correction. We don't have a design. What it will require is a master plan to study our State Road complex. There are parking and traffic issues there, utility connection issues, and an overall footprint study. The flood plans have been revised since the Katrina disaster, which has caused some of our facilities to be obsolete. It might require more construction. We haven't completed the study as yet. As far as the funding, there was $400,000 in our capital program for 2010 that would begin the study of the State Road complex.
Thank you. After your testimony, I was going to say this sounds like a success story. Now, it all depends on your 145 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc. answer for the next question. What is your projected Fiscal 2011 cost for medical treatment for prisoners? COMMISSIONER GIORLA: I believe our projected cost in the budget for mental and medical -- physical health and mental health treatment is somewhere in the neighborhood of $87 million.
Wasn't it 70 million last year? COMMISSIONER GIORLA: No. In actuality it was --
So if we have less inmates, why would it cost more? If my memory serves me, it was 70 million last year. COMMISSIONER GIORLA: We have the data for you, Madam Chair. (Witness approached witness table.)
Good afternoon. Bob Fitzmartin, Acting Administrative Services Director. We have -- I don't have the 146 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc. total here, but I have the components of the health contracts.
Are you looking at , Section 50? Is that what you're referring to, sir?
Well, do some calculations real fast. I think it was done for you.
No. 15 Your calculation is wrong. Our calculation shows 63,039,000.
Gee, you're great. COMMISSIONER GIORLA: That's correct.
Okay. What is the breakdown of medical treatment for sentenced prisoners and detainees? 147 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc. COMMISSIONER GIORLA: We don't keep figures based on custody type, such as sentenced versus detentioner inmates. Whatever treatment -- we don't provide treatment differently to each population.
Tell us what is the average stay for a detainee? COMMISSIONER GIORLA: The average stay for a detainee is around 90 days.
Ninety? COMMISSIONER GIORLA: Ninety days. That's a male detainee. For a female detainee, it's somewhere in the neighborhood of 56 days.
I'm sorry. I'm having difficulty. There's a lot of traffic outside. COMMISSIONER GIORLA: Ninety days for a --
Ninety days for a male, and how many for 148 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc. a female? COMMISSIONER GIORLA: And 56 for a female.
You are also requesting $1,900,000 for Aetna service contract. That's on your budget. Can you explain what these funds are for? COMMISSIONER GIORLA: Aetna is our third-party administrator on our medical contract. They negotiate hospital stay rates and services for us throughout the community and specialist services. Then they audit billing and negotiate rates.
Explain about special services, please. COMMISSIONER GIORLA: Specialist services, medical specialties, OB/GYN, orthopedics, radiology, other specialized medical services.
You know, we've been talking for years about the possibility of reducing the inmate 149 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc. healthcare costs. There should be some reimbursement I would think from the State. Have we applied lately for reimbursement from the State? And if we haven't, can you tell us what steps are being taken to possibly reduce the cost for the medical? COMMISSIONER GIORLA: Yes, Madam Chairwoman, I can. We've reduced our service volumes. We've changed, first of all, our sick call process. Formerly inmates would apply for sick call the day before and they'd be seen by a practitioner the next day regardless of their complaint. In some cases, they just wanted to make a phone call or they wanted to talk to someone. We now triage those slips at night, a nurse reviews them, and only those who indicate an illness are seen, and that's within five days. It's not necessarily the next day. If there's an emergency, they're seen immediately. They don't wait until the next day. That has reduced our sick 150 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc. calls from somewhere in the neighborhood of 138,000 in 2007 to about 61,000 in 2009. We've also looked at medication pricing. About 90 percent of our medication formulary has been converted to generics, and we're constantly looking for substitutes or generics that would be the equivalent and reduce our costs. We're also looking at Medicaid pricing for our medication. Currently, there's a Health and Human Services restriction on Medicaid pricing for prisoners' medication. We're trying to get that changed. We're lobbying actively to have that changed. And we're also -- we've just instituted digital radiography as a way to cut down on our transportation costs and allow a radiologist not to come to the facility, have x-rays read quicker and more efficiently. And, lastly, we're in the process of developing, along with the Health Department, an electronic health 151 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc. record for inmates. That project will allow us simultaneous use of our medical records, eliminate paper in the medical records process, and reduce the amount of documentation necessary for us to transfer inmates from one facility to another.
The Chair recognizes Councilman Green for a point of information.
I think everything you just described is great. I'm glad to hear you talk about those improvements, Commissioner.
I'm sorry. I commend you for everything you're working on in that regard that you just spoke about, Commissioner. Can you tell me where in the budget efficiencies from these changes are reflected? Thank you. 152 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc. COMMISSIONER GIORLA: The budget efficiencies are reflected in our overall cost estimates for the facilities. You know, our cost estimate for 2011 is roughly a one percent increase over 2010, which compared to medical increases in the community at large are much less. The average increase for medical costs in the community are between four and seven percent. We've reduced -- I'd be glad to provide information on how we reduced personnel costs for our medical staff, overall positions and any other data you might want to look at.
I'll conclude with my questioning. However, I still feel very strongly -- and we go into this just about every year -- about our looking to the State for some type of reimbursement for the medical needs of the inmates. Have we done that at all lately? 153 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc. COMMISSIONER GIORLA: It's illegal to provide Medicaid while inmates are in custody. One of the things we've done, we've worked with the State so that their Medicaid benefits are not revoked when they're in custody, that they're actually suspended. As it stands now, somebody released from our custody can report to the Human Services Office and have their benefits reactivated without reapplying. That's the most efficient system we've been able to institute thus far. If we get permission or the regulatory changes are made to cover inmates while in custody, we'll pursue that as well. There are efforts underfoot to have inmates designated as part of a medically underserved community and for the local health centers to engage in some participation in our medical health treatment that would allow us to seek that type of reimbursement, but at this time, it's just not possible 154 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc. for us. It will require regulatory and legislative change.
Well, I think that's something we should be lobbying for, first of all. We, the City, are paying for the cost of the prisoners. That should be done by the State. But that's not your problem; it's ours. And I think there's a better way of doing it. However, we're not the ones to do it. If we could, we would. At this time, the Chair recognizes Councilman Greenlee.
Thank you, Madam President. Good afternoon, gentlemen. (Good afternoon.)
Certainly your efforts, I think we all agree, to fight recidivism is encouraging, because it seems like the numbers have certainly increased in a lot of ways or the recidivism has decreased, so the results have increased. 155 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc. As far as GEDs, I see that there's a percent increase from 2007. 4 Do you have any idea how many, as an 5 inmate leaves, what the percentage is 6 that have at least a GED? 7 COMMISSIONER GIORLA: We don't 8 do diagnostic testing for everyone that 9 comes through the door. We do intake 10 interviewing and we ask for self-reported 11 information. Forty-eight percent state 12 that they do not have a GED. As far as 13 the other 52 percent who come through the 14 door and say they do, we're not sure 15 about some of those. When we have them 16 participate in programs, we look at their 17 skill level, and sometimes it's 18 inappropriate and we will refer them to 19 our adult basic education and our pre-GED 20 programs. 21 Now, the reentry -- RISE, the 22 Reintegration Services for Ex-Offenders, 23 they conduct tape testing of each 24 offender that they provide services to, 25 so they get a benchmark and a skill level 156 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc. and then they can make appropriate referrals. We're looking at a sentenced curriculum, a required sentenced curriculum.
That was going to be my next question. COMMISSIONER GIORLA: Based on several things that we think would be necessary to an appropriate reentry, anger management, victim awareness, GED evaluation, testing and placement, and any other drug and alcohol or specialized treatment they might require.
Now, would that have to be ordered by the court or can the Prisons make that as part of their requirements? DEPUTY
Both. COMMISSIONER GIORLA: For sentenced offenders, the Prison themselves can mandate it. Frequently the court will order, depending on what the defense attorney requests and what the nature of the offense is, they'll 157 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc. order a drug and alcohol treatment, they'll order a GED or some other type of placement.
Okay. Good. And as far as job training and the programs, it looks like the numbers have really increased there. As far as the job training, I know -- and I don't know a lot about this, but I know you have a printing process up there. COMMISSIONER GIORLA: Yes.
And I think there is some type of carpentry, furniture-making, that kind of thing? COMMISSIONER GIORLA: We have a number of vocational training. We have the Horticulture Society. We have our Philacor Prison Industries, which has a furniture shop, which has a hospitality program. They have a print shop and an engraving shop as well. JEVS Employment Services runs a building maintenance program for us, and we also have environmental maintenance and customer 158 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc. service training available for the inmates.
Now, the products that are produced out of that, the furniture or the stationery or whatever, do you have any working relationship with City agencies to provide -- to get like if City Council needs a desk or something? You know what I mean? Because I know we have to go through a certain procurement process, but is there some relationship with the Prisons and the City? There should be. COMMISSIONER GIORLA: We're permitted by law to sell to governmental agencies nationwide, non-profits who contract with the City, and we do so. We make virtually all our own office furniture for the Prisons. We've made a number of items in the last year for the Managing Director's Office and some other City agencies. We do printing for some agencies and a lot of the engraving as well. 159 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc.
So, what, it has to be like a specific -- do requests still go through Procurement? COMMISSIONER GIORLA: No. 6 Requests can be placed --
Right to the Prisons? COMMISSIONER GIORLA: -- right to the Prisons through our Philacor Industries.
Okay. That sounds good. COMMISSIONER GIORLA: I'll be glad to send to Council catalogues.
We'll give you a catalogue. We'll be glad to use the Philacor.
I 160 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc. assume that whatever revenues are generated, it goes right back into your fund, Commissioner? COMMISSIONER GIORLA: The --
Not yours, but... COMMISSIONER GIORLA: Well, the Industries' fund, which is generated by the proceeds from Philacor, our correctional industries, it goes back into the Philacor Industries' fund, whatever -- there's no profit there. It's entirely reinvested. It's nearly self-sustaining. The only cost it really doesn't cover are personnel costs for our shop supervisors and our security officers, but it pays for supplies, it pays for its own equipment and it provides whatever services we require.
No. 25 That's fine. Thank you, Madam President. 161 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc. One more question on a different note. You talk about the usual uptick in prisoners during the warm-weather months. On average, what is that? I mean, how much percentage roughly would you say it goes up in the warm weather? COMMISSIONER GIORLA: When we went back and looked at probably ten years past, our average increase was about four and a half percent. Now, there have been downturns before, court-ordered intervention. Prison Cat in the '90s caused a downturn in the population. Significant Police initiatives like Operation Safe Streets and Sunrise caused downturns in the population. But each time they rebounded and sometimes in the double digits. So I don't want to be -- this is the first time that you've seen efficiencies that are systemic rather than immediate and forced. There's no 25 court intervention here. These are 162 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc. actually efficiencies between the courts and the Prisons that have caused this reduction.
Cooperative effort. COMMISSIONER GIORLA: Yeah. We really believe we should be able to sustain this, but, you know, the crime rate itself is a variable, so...
Sure. All right. Thanks for all you do. Thank you, Madam President.
You're welcome. The Chair recognizes Councilman Jones.
Thank you. I have my PAL Councilperson here. She's empowered me to speak and ask you a couple of questions.
No, Councilman. I think you should be asking the question.
First of all, from your first presentation when I first came here as a Councilperson to now is a marked improvement over some of the things that you are talking about. You were able to respond to all of the questions. That's my statement. I am confident we are moving in the right direction based on some of your accomplishments. More participation in programs, increased minority participation in contracting, the reduction overall in inmate population. So I am impressed with what you're doing in the right direction. The question I would have is, 164 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc. to reemphasize why there's no 3 dollar-for-dollar decrease of the $125 a day every time we lose an inmate. Can you kind of help us with that? COMMISSIONER GIORLA: Certainly, Councilman. The figure has been thrown around repeatedly. Every year someone takes our entire average daily population and divides it into our budget. So if we had 9,000 and they divide that into 240 million, it comes to maybe $90 a day or $95 a day. Each offender has associated costs. We have, for instance, weekend offenders who stay two days, consume very little in the area of supplies and are low risk and require low security. They may cost us $10 to $12 a day. We have high-custody offenders who are very dangerous, assaultive, in some cases mentally ill and have chronic medical diseases. They may cost us $10,000 a month or $1,000 a day. We've seen persons in our custody with very significant therapeutic and 165 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc. medical needs that are extremely expensive. So for every inmate that we release or every person that we reduce the population by, it's not a dollar-for-dollar figure. We can't say we let 100 inmates out, so that's $9,700. What we try to look at is services across the board, if we can reduce medical services. And when the population goes down like this, we look at can we consolidate living space without jeopardizing programs, can we reduce the number of people assigned to a specific area. We look at -- our Contracts Office reviews our bills for food service and maintenance. Our Chief of Medical Operations looks at whether or not we can redeploy medical staff. Everything that we can do.
For the record, I think it's important for people to understand and this Council to understand that just because we drop 166 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc. inmate population, there's a variable as to where the direct cost per inmate goes. The second question, that reduction in total population, how much of that is due to farming inmates out to other private and often other counties in their facilities? COMMISSIONER GIORLA: None. None. In actuality, the population decrease has allowed us to withdraw from those facilities. We had contracts in Passaic, New Jersey and Monmouth, New Jersey. We're no longer there. We have a contract with Lehigh County, Pennsylvania. We've reduced that number. We have a couple of contracts with sites within the City. We've reduced the numbers there as well.
So per day stay, was that cost greater in those facilities or less? COMMISSIONER GIORLA: In some of those facilities, yes, it was.
It was 167 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc. greater? COMMISSIONER GIORLA: In Monmouth County, for example, it was $105 a day. In Passaic County, New Jersey, it was $88 a day. I'm not sure about the others.
So every time we reduce one of those outsourcing contracts, we actually save a dollar or two? COMMISSIONER GIORLA: Yes.
Excuse me. The Chair recognizes Councilwoman Sanchez for a point of information.
Thank you. I just wanted to clarify that, because that was one of the questions that I had, because in fact the Fiscal Year 2011 obligations for outside management, the number is the same. So I 168 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc. just wanted to clarify that, because that was going to be one of my questions. You have, according to Section 50, , $107 million in contracting that's going out, which is the same what you projected in 2010, and I wanted to ask about the disparities, because, Councilman Jones, if you'll allow me, there are places where we pay as little as 35 and at places where we pay 105. So the number hasn't gone down, at least not based on what you're proposing. COMMISSIONER GIORLA: The reductions at Monmouth County and Passaic County we took in FY10. We've renegotiated minimums at our other contract sites. So between '10 and '11, we didn't reduce any outside housing contracts. However, the number of inmates that we had housed at those sites exceeded our minimums, so we've tried to reduce to the minimum or maintain at the minimum as time goes on. So that our overall projection will be for a certain 169 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc. amount, but --
Because according to what you're putting here, our capacity is 1,500 inmates at $107 million. So you're saying we were over some of those limits? Because your numbers are the same, and I wanted to ask about that, because I was hoping that that's one of the areas where I would see reductions, and I don't. DEPUTY
Councilwoman, let me also just add something. One of the things that you have to be mindful of is that while we have been able to reduce the Prison budget by the nine million that you've seen in the overall, we have kept as a hedge against what the Commissioner was talking about earlier a spike that we would not be able to deal with, and for us to just reduce those contracts without that, we would be actually saying that we would not have the capacity to go back into them. So we have taken -- and by 170 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc. taking the floor out of those contracts and reducing that, we believe that we have the amount of money that we will be able to spend and it will be lessened by that through our anticipation of what the numbers would be this summer, but we did not want to just take out -- let's just say take out the Lehigh County completely and save the $950,000. We didn't want to do that, because if all the sudden there is a spike, we would have no place to put people.
I guess my issue is, if we have places that house them for half the price -- I'm sorry, Councilman Jones. I can come back to this -- rather than keep a contract with someone who is 105, we would increase the ones where the other was. So it's just not reflected here, and I know you guys are working hard on this and this is -- again, because it's $107 million in outside contracting. This is clearly one of the 171 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc. places where outside of some structural changes at the Prisons we should be able to see some -- I'll come back, Councilman Jones. COMMISSIONER GIORLA: If I could respond, Councilwoman. If I could respond. Within segments of the inmate population, there are custody needs. All these sites that are listed here are low-custody, low-risk inmate housing sites, and there are conditions placed on those contracts. Most of these vendors do not take those who are severely mentally ill, those who are assaultive, those who have high-custody classifications, and we try and place everyone within our population at these lower-cost sites that we can, and we believe at this point, we pretty much exhausted that segment of the population. Unfortunately, the rest of them, they're not only more costly for us, but they're more costly for the vendors, so they generally don't seek to house that type 172 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc. of offender.
I still believe this is an area where I think we need to find some money.
I'm sorry. The Chair recognizes Councilman Green for a point of information. Councilman Jones, we're going to get back to you.
To Councilwoman Quinones-Sanchez's and Councilman Jones' point, if you take a look at the reductions that the Prisons sent over that would account for a significant portion of the reductions proposed by the Prisons Department at the seven and a half percent number, you've got provisional housing, 3,249,000, which is described as the Prisons will no 23 longer have contingency housing in most outside jurisdictions. If population stabilizes, this will have no effect on 173 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc. operations. If population rises, additional triple-celling will be necessary. We have a whole -- that's $3 million right there. We have a whole series of public policies from CJAB, which I'm pleased to serve with you on, which has done great work, and so have the Prisons with them, from the DA, who is going to remove 3,000 people likely from our prisons a year to all sorts of things that are being put in place, community courts, diversion courts that are going to, if the public policy works the way we all think it would, lower the prison population over time. You may be even able to close a women's facility right now based on current numbers. And the question is why we can't budget in what we know is our public policy and what we are going to all try to achieve over the next couple years. DEPUTY
I would just say, Councilman, that it would be 174 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc. very good and it would be, I think -- that's where we hope to be, and I think that in budgeting, you have to anticipate that if it does not happen -- and, as you know, serving on CJAB with me, there are quite a number of moving parts, and we have been very collaborative and we've been able to do quite a lot. It still takes time for those things to happen. And if the District Attorney, which I fully support, is able to divert nothing more than just 3,000 folks out of the system, if that actually occurs, then, yes, next year we'll be able to say that we saved even more money than you've been able to see here. But I would not want the Commissioner to propose a budget that would say that is going to happen, because then we would be back here talking about, We don't have any way, shape or form of meeting the numbers.
There's two philosophies on budgeting. One is to keep it conservative so the Department 175 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc. can have a cushion, which I think we can all agree there's a large cushion in the Prison budget, in case the worst happens, in case population rises. That's one way of looking at budgeting. The other way is to say, Let's set a goal for what we actually want to achieve. We're going to have a surplus that PICA is going to require us to have in the year end, and if the worst happens, we will have the money in a contingency in the fund balance to deal with it. But let's set a realistic number for what we can achieve. COMMISSIONER GIORLA: Councilman, set --
Set reached goals. Otherwise, we're not going -- if we leave in the cushion, we're not going to be trying to meet reached goals. COMMISSIONER GIORLA: We're not leaving a cushion. We're basing our budget and our expectations on what our population has been historically. As I said, there have been reductions before. 176 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc. There have been marked reductions before. They've always been followed by sizable increases. They've always -- at this point where we stand is, we still have somewhere close to 700 triple beds, which we have to relieve, and that's the need for us to renovate -- that's part of the need for us to renovate Torresdale Avenue. We still have the question about custody levels and how we break down that population.
Right. I mean, day reporting, GPS ankle bracelets, diverting 3,000 people, all the -- moving things through the courts more quickly, I mean, we can do this, so let's say we can do it. Let's set a goal. Let's say we're going to save 15 million again this year.
Councilmember, I wish we could budget that way. I certainly don't feel comfortable. I would remind you that circa June of 2008 we did take a $9 or $10 million transfer 177 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc. ordinance to Council on behalf of the Prisons because we were very short, and at that point, the million I think was 5 about four to five percent of their 6 entire budget. 7
I 8 understand, and we'll have a fund balance 9 to do that if they can't get these 10 efficiencies. I think we need to set reached goals here.
Councilmember, if that happens in the early part of the year, because most of the revenue comes in late in the year, we wouldn't have a fund balance to do that.
Councilman Jones, I think we can now get back to you.
Thank you, Madam President. And I appreciate my colleagues' point of information and then series of questioning that they asserted, because had they at least waited a second, they might have heard some of 178 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc. them, but thank you for that. I just want to follow up on a couple of things. One -- and I appreciate that line of questioning sincerely, because it added insight to some of those cost reductions. But last year you mentioned in your testimony that an integral part of your strategy for inmate reduction was GPS systems and that last year in your testimony that would be undertaken. And I was wondering to what degree, because it's not reflected in your testimony, to what degree have you implemented that and is that a strategic part of that 3,000 inmate reduction, and, if so, how? COMMISSIONER GIORLA: Last year at this time we had not completed our evaluation and transfer of inmates to State custody. Our intention was to implement GPS tracking in our Work Release program. These transfers to State have significantly reduced those numbers by more than half. We did award 179 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc. a contract, but we haven't implemented that as yet, because we wanted to see what the eventual outcome is. We've just about exhausted the State population as it is now and we're probably better positioned to implement that on a more limited basis.
So what impact will that have on overall reduction plans? COMMISSIONER GIORLA: The GPS had no effect on the overall reduction.
No. I think that your question is is GPS still a long-range thing and a short range in order to help us with this. The answer is yes. But what we have to do is work with our criminal justice partners to make sure that we end up agreeing with that segment, and that's what we'll be talking about at CJAB, what segment of the population that is at the prison can we actually divert to GPS. I believe 180 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc. that there is a significant number. I'm hoping that we'll start small in order to show that the numbers and that the technology works. We have a great partner with the Juvenile Court, who has been doing this for the last six months to eight months. Their GPS is now -- I think they have somewhere between 50 and 60 individuals that are on that GPS technology. We're hoping that in the adult side, the partnership will come together and we'll put together the protocols so that we'll be able to divert even more adults using the same technology. Quite frankly, I'd like to see everyone that's doing DUI on weekends on GPS rather than being up at the prison. That's something that is a discussion point, and as Councilman Green knows, that was just mentioned at the last CJAB meeting where we were thinking about how would we go in this area to move this forward. If we can do that, that's a hundred people on the weekends. 181 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc.
Well, as you know, I'm not on CJAB. That's a story for another day, but having said that -- DEPUTY
-- having said that, it's an important statistic for us to be able to anticipate what those costs are. And, finally, I will say to you that I do not want you knee-jerk closing things. I want you to create a deliberate, thoughtful process. This is not like closing a rec center. It is a prison where we house individuals to protect society, and every time you do something in that realm, there is an intended and unintended consequence that needs to be thought through. So I'll end where I started, which is I believe we're moving in the correct direction, slowly though, deliberately and where it makes sense. DEPUTY
Thank you. The Chair recognizes Councilwoman Blackwell.
Thank you, Madam President. I was reading through some of these budget cuts if we had to cut and I think that -- of course, I don't like negative planning, so it's not my preference in how we do it to consider eliminating RISE that we just opened and programs and chaplaincy. Commissioner, not when you were Commissioner, prior to your being there, they had a lot of problems in the prisons where men were destroying the cell, defecating, smearing it on walls and all of that. They took 183 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc. the men out of prisons, cleaned them up, got showers, changed, cleaned the cells, put them back in and they did it again. It wasn't until they brought in chaplains, mental health, social workers that life begins to change. So when we consider what we cut, we have to consider that consequence as well. Now I'll get to my specific question. I understand that there's some issues with regard to parking, and the officers who go there to park are getting tickets. One day they received ten tickets in one day, and certain people are allowed to park, the 3:00 to 11:00 shift in one place and various issues. I'm sure you're aware of that, and I wondered where we are and if you could work out these issues. Apparently the inmates were offended when they were told that although they live in Philadelphia, that they could leave three hours early to get to work. That's, of course, the rumor. 184 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc. But problems like that, it seems to me, we should be able to solve, and I wonder where you are in that area. COMMISSIONER GIORLA: Councilwoman, as far as parking, the parking at our complex on State Road is very tight. It's very tight. There's a combination of parking provided for official visitors, visitors and our employees. We've been in discussions with our unions for well over a year on how to alleviate that situation. We've also -- one of the things that we've done in the past is to have our bike patrol officers and our transportation unit officers certified to write parking tickets, and they've done so for a couple of reasons. They've issued them to people parked illegally, those who are blocking our fire and emergency lanes and those who block entrances and park in non-parking areas. There was a problem with some of the staff receiving tickets when they 185 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc. were parking illegally. What we've done is, with the help of Councilwoman Krajewski's office, the parking regulations were changed to create public parking along the west side of State Road opposite our complex. During portions of the day when the shift changes, we do not permit visitors, either official visitors or personal visitors, to park there and we reserve parking for staff. In our plans for capital improvements, we've included a master plan study of our State Road complex, which will include a significant study not only of the parking needs, but an intention to provide additional parking for staff. I've been continuously talking with our union representatives about the issue of parking tickets and I've asked to see those to determine whether or not they were given inappropriately or appropriately, and I've not had any submitted to my office as of this time. 186 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc.
What about the suggestions -- there were some suggestions that were submitted to you by officers and union members with regard to their suggestions as to how it could be worked out, some six suggestions. Were they considered or any of their suggestions adopted? COMMISSIONER GIORLA: Yes, they were, absolutely. We enlarged the parking area at the House of Correction. We lengthened the time during which visitors were not allowed to park on our premises to create more parking spaces. They were two that the unions had suggested to us. They also suggested that we acquire additional property to the south of our complex on State Road, and given the current budget condition, we don't -- we're not able to do that at this time.
What about the issue of the parking lot at the main gate being reserved for 3:00-11:00 187 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc. shift officers only? COMMISSIONER GIORLA: We are doing that right now. Our bike patrol officers are reserving areas within that parking lot just for the 3:00 to 11:00 shift.
All right. Thank you, Madam President. I will finish my statement by saying, I'll take these issues back, but they were just complaining to me today. So apparently there's some issues, and if there are further concerns, I would like to reserve the right to come to you again to try to work these things out. COMMISSIONER GIORLA: I would be glad to.
Thank 188 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc. you. Again, I want to --
-- thank the Commissioner for all the work that's been done around the reductions. I'm extremely pleased with our ability to start moving some of these State prisoners. I think that's such an important piece. Going back to these outside providers, it would be important if you can share with the Chair the uniqueness of the services that they provide that provide for the wide range between $35 and 105. I think that's important for us to look at, because you're saying to me some of these providers don't do some of the chronic mental health patients. I want to know why that level of discrepancy or variation with them. As it relates to long-term planning around facilities, ultimately 189 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc. this is one of those departments where we're going to have to continue to hammer to find savings. Are we prepared to say that part of the facilities plan will include at some point an elimination of a prison, and then what would those savings be? I mean, what is our thinking of the facilities? We keep hearing about Holmesburg being repaired. What's our long-term goal for our facilities plan? COMMISSIONER GIORLA: The largest segment of our population are minimum-custody offenders and primarily males. They are approximately 40 to 45 percent of our population. The House of Correction, which we intend to replace, has 1,200 beds for low custody. The Detention Center, which is our second oldest facility, has somewhere close to 1,300 beds for the same purpose. Combining those two facilities into a single footprint eventually would give us a savings, because the way we manage jails in those older facilities, 190 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc. the direct supervision and the antiquated physical plant makes it difficult to run them the way newer facilities are run. I'll give you a for-instance. Our RCF facility is equipped with 105 or 106 video cameras, which decreases the number of direct observation required by our officers. The House of Correction has none. Detention Center has none. So what we have to do in those cases, we have to supply people where we need eyes.
I think that's very important, because ultimately that's where you're going to get the biggest savings. And we're interested and I know there will always be concerns about whose backyard this ends up being in, but ultimately that's the only thing that's going to get us to some serious reductions in the Prisons. As it relates to the overtime, because that's one of the issues, the constant theme, you have about $26 million in overtime. Are you expected to 191 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc. hire a class for correction officers to reduce some of your overtime? COMMISSIONER GIORLA: At this time, we just graduated a class on February the 17th. We made a number of promotions to the Sergeant, Lieutenant and Captain ranks. We're looking at our post plan to determine what the size of a class would be and then probably -- I'll submit a request to hire a class probably in the next 30 to 60 days.
So in this fiscal year, you will be hiring to fill some of the vacancies that are listed? COMMISSIONER GIORLA: We'll be making a request. We may not initiate the class -- seek to initiate the class until the new fiscal year begins.
I notice that one of the things that you outlined in the plan if we were to make any cuts to your department was your CEC contract, and one of the things you're proposing 192 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc. would be to shift from sentenced inmates to pretrial. Is that something that would only happen if we cut your budget? COMMISSIONER GIORLA: Yes.
So there's no plans for that? COMMISSIONER GIORLA: Not at this time.
That requires a conversation with the community, since we committed what types of offenders we would be putting in that site. COMMISSIONER GIORLA: Absolutely.
I want to make you aware of that, because there will likely be some cuts and so if that becomes one of the areas where reductions can happen, I think it's important that we go back to the community. I wanted to ask you around your minority participation numbers. I notice that from 2009 to 2010 there was a drop 193 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc. from almost 30 percent to percent, yet you're setting your goal at 33 percent. What was the cause of the drop and how are you going to increase it almost 50 percent in one year? COMMISSIONER GIORLA: Our previous contract obligations were -- well, our previous reporting was based on our contracts as a whole, which included not only our for-profit organization contracts but our not-for-profits and those which we contracted through other funds, not necessarily through our Operating Budget but through our inmate welfare funds and other sources. So that's the reason for the difference in those numbers.
So you 20 shifted from General Fund to Grants Revenue and that caused the disparity of ten percent in your minority contract? COMMISSIONER GIORLA: For some, yes.
And then 194 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc. so how are you going to get to 33 percent in one year? COMMISSIONER GIORLA: Well, this is based on our existing contracts right now. There are no --
Your projections for your 2010 minority participation is percent, and you're 10 saying for 2011 you're going to get to 33 11 percent. So that's why I wanted to know 12 where was the decrease and where do you 13 expect that bump up like that. 14 (Witness approached witness 15 table.) 16
Good afternoon. 19 My name is Roseanne Duzinski. I'm the 20 Contracts and Planning Administrator at the Philadelphia Prisons. In all honesty, Councilwoman, we notified the Office of Economic Opportunity that that 20 percent that was reported there was incorrect. The number 195 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc. is actually 33 percent, just as it is, but the correction was not made in the testimony.
Okay. My time is up. Sorry. COMMISSIONER GIORLA: And we'll be glad to provide a revised copy.
I think that's important. As we monitor different departments, those of you who are actually completing those goals can provide some good experience for us as we deal with other departments who are challenged with this.
Thank you. Thank you. Good afternoon, Commissioner. COMMISSIONER GIORLA: Good afternoon.
And company. I have a few questions. Regarding correctional officers and their 196 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc. reduction in sick time, in your statement, your testimony, you say you've reduced it by percent. What new 5 policies were put into place to achieve 6 that reduction? 7 COMMISSIONER GIORLA: There was 8 a combination of two things. First, we 9 sought to hire to reduce our vacancy 10 rate. In 2008 our vacancy rate was 11 somewhere in the neighborhood of 15 to 18 12 percent for correctional officers. That 13 resulted in a lot of forced overtime, and 14 our officers were quite exhausted. We 15 embarked on a hiring campaign. We hired 16 over 250 officers. We also looked at one 17 of the aspects of our leave time, which 18 is unpaid sick time, where officers and 19 some of our employees across the board 20 were exceeding their sick time, were not 21 applying for other authorized time; that 22 is, leaves of absence or family medical 23 sick time. We instituted a plan of 24 discipline. As a result, we tried to 25 channel them into appropriate and 197 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc. approved leave time, such as sick time, vacation time, family medical leave or medical leaves of absence. Those who still continued to use time were disciplined. As a result, that number fell. It fell significantly. The increase in occupied positions or the decrease in the vacancy rate also allowed the staff who didn't want to work overtime not to work overtime. They didn't have to anymore. Those who sought to work overtime, you know, had the opportunity, and that decreased -- they were exhausted. They were quite exhausted.
Well, it sounds like it worked for you, which is great. I want to talk a little bit about this recidivism and the Reintegration Services for Ex-Offenders. Now, even though you say it's a new program, but the reentry program has been around for a while; is that not correct? 198 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc. DEPUTY
And the only thing I'm really interested in is outcome, how many people have secured employment or -- the ultimate goal I know is employment. DEPUTY
And here you have 480 prisoners, but I think that's a new number? COMMISSIONER GIORLA: That's for Fiscal '10.
Right. So what happened last year? (Witness approached witness table.)
Good afternoon. My name is Carolyn Harper and I'm the Interim Director for RISE. And to answer your question for FY09, in FY09, we had 597 participants that were employed, and out of the 597, 199 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc. 213 received employment, and of the 213 that received employment, 155 of them remained on the same job for more than 90 days. Obviously some stayed on longer than that, but we track it for the first 90 days that they stay in the same job.
So what happened to those that weren't as successful as the 213?
We continue to case manage them and keep them. We put them in vocational training or whatever training that they need and we try to work on removing their barriers. In FY09, we've provided services for 683 participants, and those services included educational services, mental health treatment, substance abuse treatment, housing referrals, clothing referrals, anger management. So some of the individuals have barriers and so they're not ready to be placed in employment, but they still stay connected to the program.
I'm sure 200 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc. that some have multiple barriers.
Okay. And are there age requirements for your reentry? Someone told me that you could only service people between a certain age.
We have what we call a managed reintegration network and we look at the level of risk to public safety, and that determines what level of service we provide. And given that the highest number of offenses occur between the age population of and 34, they 16 receive what we call direct service. So 17 they have a case manager that they have 18 to see on a regular basis. Everyone is assigned a case manager. Those who are older than 34 or who have been out of prison for more than three years go to our cluster sites. We have three cluster locations, and they receive the same service, but at a different level. So we can service someone up to -- the age is 201 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc. not the deciding factor. The length of time out of prison is the deciding factor. So if they've been out of prison longer than seven years, we refer them to other services, because they're really not a threat to public safety. They know how to stay out of prison, but they may be looking for a better job or better housing.
Okay. Good. Where's your office? How do people contact RISE, I guess?
Our main office is at 34 South 11th Street on the 6th Floor. We also have a cluster office on 40th and Market. We are co-located with Partnership CDC at 4027 Market Street. And we also have a location on 7th between Callowhill and Spring Garden. We're co-located with our Goodwill facility for transitional work.
All right. That was quick, Madam 202 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc. President. But it is what it is. My time is up.
That's all right. Perhaps do you want a list of where the locations are?
Would you be kind enough to send that to the Councilwoman?
All right. 203 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc.
One of the things I wanted to know, can you send us a copy again of the breakdown at 8,500 inmates, why they're there, how many are there for probation or parole violations, how many are waiting for court, how many are sentenced? I know you say it every year, but I can't keep track of that. COMMISSIONER GIORLA: It's hard to keep track of it for us, too, Councilwoman, but we can send you a list.
That will be great. And also what other revenue-producing fees, operational fees. For example, I understand you now take pictures of visitors? COMMISSIONER GIORLA: We've done that for years. That program has been in effect for nearly 30 years.
Do you charge for the picture? COMMISSIONER GIORLA: Yes, we do. We charge a photo fee. We take instant pictures that the family members 204 4/6/10 - WHOLE - BILL 100115, etc. keep or the inmates themselves keep. That goes into a photo fund, which pays for inmate expenses, some inmate expenses in the facilities at the discretion of the warden.
But that goes into your operating fund, correct? COMMISSIONER GIORLA: Yes.
What other fees? I understand you have a kiosk now? COMMISSIONER GIORLA: We now have -- well, for well over the last year, we have kiosks in each of our facilities where family members can make deposits to inmate accounts. They can either use cash, use credit cards.