How old are these youngsters at these twilight schools?
And kids who return from incarceration, kids who are coming back from welfare. Kids with whom we have not otherwise been successful are frequently good candidates for twilight school. We now have ten of them.
And are they located in all sections of the City?
And the remedial discipline schools, is that Daniel Boone and --
Accommodation capacity again, is that detention rooms? What are they? We're getting so fancy with these names that -- 2262 3/1/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST.
They are basically detention rooms, time-out rooms. One of the issue that teachers frequently raise, and these are all in elementary schools, are kids that become disruptive. And until three years ago, there was basically no place to send them in most schools, and so provided the capacity for accommodation.
But they're what we once call "detention rooms"?
Okay. In the Able Academies, do we still have six Able Academies throughout the City?
I think that they have had a mixed experience. I don't think they've been as successful as we would have liked for them to. In fact, we're reviewing the way in which they function. That we need a place for middle school kids to be sent when they have particularly behavioral problems of a sustained character is 2263 3/1/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. absolutely clear, and there never had never been such a place before we started it, but I don't think we have found entirely the right formula yet for that.
Do we have a psychologist going in to visit the youngsters at Able Academies?
Thank you, Madam Chair. On the full budget, -02, which is the charter school budget -- I'm sorry, did I go out of turn?
No. 19 Everybody's lights were on, then they're off. I don't know whether we're having trouble back here or. . . Councilman Kenney.
Your light works better than mine. (Laughter.) 2264 3/1/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST.
I have friends in the electricians union. In Section 8-02, it's the section on the charter schools, there's a line item here that's for a '99-2000 request for 57 at $1.7 million for classroom teachers. Are we providing classroom teachers for charter school?
No, sir. As the explanation entails, on the enrollment page in the book, in various places, we take the enrollment out as if we had these couple thousands kids actually just come right out. But, as we all know, they don't come out in neat packages of 30 in any given school, let alone in any given grade. And so this is created as a percentage of the calculated value of the enrollment decline, because we will take these 57 -- they're in reserve -- to put into our regular classrooms where we see -- where it does not come out to be the savings that the sheer numbers would suggest. For example, if a school, you have 30 fewer kids because they're going to a charter school, you will not necessarily be able to reduce the allotments of that school by one teacher, 2265 3/1/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. because those kids could be scattered in grades 1 through 8, so we have a reserve, and it's calculated at approximately 40 percent of the calculation.
They are cost to us as a result of the charter experience. We will end up using those teachers, allotting them --
Well, after we dropped -- on the other pages that you've seen, you've seen a drop of, in this particular case, about 100, just over 100 teachers, 120, 130 teachers as a direct result of the charter enrollment. But we're saying we won't achieve those 120 or 130 positions.
So there's a line 2266 3/1/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. item here asking for 57 more positions as classroom teachers in the charter section of the budget.
Well, why don't we just put it in the other section as opposed to putting it in the charter section? 'Cause for someone like myself who reads this, it would lead me to believe that there's 57 classroom teachers in charter schools throughout the City or throughout the region that we're providing for charter schools. And do we count them as instructional personnel?
We count the 57 teachers; when they're assigned, they will be in classrooms. If I can call your attention to Section 20 B of the book, there is a written explanation. Part B is -- the page is prefaced with B.
So we're not providing -- so the short answer is that we're not providing classroom teachers for charter schools.
No, sir. This is an 2267 3/1/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. offset that reflects the fact that although we technically calculate that we should be able to lose 120, 130, 140 teachers, we're only going to be able to cut down on our expenses by about 55, 65 percent of that.
Well, also, I don't know what grade level these will be in. I will assign these 57 when I know that they'll be elementary, middle, or high school.
All right. Can you tell me what a "post-secondary readiness coordinator" is?
What is their salary? 21 (Dr. Hornbeck confers off mike with 22 staff members.)
It's in the mid-sixties. They are the individuals who are responsible for working with teachers and principals and others to 2268 3/1/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. secure the apprenticeship slot all across the City, of which last year we had 3500, and the service learning slots, of which we had 7500 last year. But according to the new graduation and promotional requirements, by 2002, we will require 70,000.
And are these counted as instructional or non-instructional.
That's right. They would not be in the"Instructional" column.
And are they administrative or administrator? (Laughter.)
They're probably both, but 2269 3/1/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. they're not instructional.
Thank you. The Chair recognizes Councilwoman Clark.
Thank you, Madam President. I would like to join the discussion that Mr. Kenney raised with respect to a coordinated approach at the Harrisburg level to get some changes made. He didn't say this, but let me put my own spin on it. I do think that everybody needs to lower their voice and look for cooperative ways to do a job that neither of us can avoid doing. The State, by charter, has an obligation to provide an education system for residents of the State, so it's not something that they do because they're good guys; it's something that they do because there's a Constitutional requirement. And we in Philadelphia have no less obligation to educate our youngsters, and I think we need an intergovernmental cooperation agreement 2270 3/1/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. where each of us determines what we can do differently to achieve this objective. There's no reason to fight. That's the reason to cooperate. And so I think that there needs to be that, Mr. Superintendent, you might be the person who needs to call the meeting. But if you don't call it, I think you should attend any meeting that is called because we need everybody's best thoughts on this issue. Having said that, I now wish you to tell me, what is our strategy? I heard the Mayor in his State-of-the-City message, when he promised the School District the dollars that would be freed up from not funding the courts. That's a big chunk of dollars, maybe $100 million a year?
That's 160 million recurring dollars for one line item that goes to courts to another line item that goes to schools. Every day that those dollars don't get in the School District's budget, we have the odd situation of Philadelphia public school children subsidizing the courts. The money that should be 2271 3/1/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. coming to schools is going to the courts. So the State runs a surplus while the school children are going out of the world backwards. Now, is that a reason to sit down an talk? Yes. Should it be soon? Yes. I don't care who calls the meeting, but everybody ought to show up. Because we cannot countenance the continuation of this bad situation. It needs to be done. The Mayor needs to put some teeth in it. It was a fine speech; now it needs to have a plan superimposed on it with a timetable when somebody takes step one to cause it to happen. It will not happen because it ought to; it will only happen because it is caused to happen. And I would hope, Mr. Superintendent, that you would take that as your responsibility to delegate it to somebody so that that starts to happen. We have examples of it. The Kvaerner deal is the best example of the three levels of government pulling at the same time to the advantage of all three levels of government. But Kvaerner will, at its best, produce a few thousands jobs. If we could make public 2272 3/1/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. schools work on a dedicated funding stream that is substantial, we can change the life chances of these youngsters. Now, what does it take to make all of us think that's worth doing? I don't know, but I'm just giving you my best shot at it.
Thank you, Councilwoman Clark. I agree with your conclusions. And there's no question but that we are prepared in any form or fashion to sit and try to find constructive solutions not only to our own problems, but my guess is, it would have to take place in finding solutions to problems of other kids around the State, because an awful lot of us are in the same boat together.
Another example that you raised is, can we jointly talk about extending the early retirement system so that we don't take that group off retirement so that people take advantage of what they believe is a benefit that will go and never come again? Another item on the agenda, when the coordinated committee meets is, how can we extend the retirement so as not to have this big bump 2273 3/1/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. like we had when people mellowed out? And how can we talk about ways to turn money into a line item for the School District? Madam Chair, I'm aware of the beeper and I am abiding by it.
Thank you. The Chair recognizes Councilman Nutter.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Dr. Hornbeck, I'd like to go back to where we were when I last had the pleasure of chatting with you. This Section 2, and I think it's on , you have, in response to a question from the Chair, listed three challenges, if you will, with regard to teacher recruitment. They were in order, I believe: residency, school selection, and financial issues. It's listed in the book here as loan, payback, and salary. Is this also out of the PEF study, or is that from another study?
This actually comes not only from the PEF study but from our own independent surveys of people. 2274 3/1/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST.
Okay, all right. And we've had some discussions certainly about residency. I think you indicated that you were going to get me a copy of someone else's study that talked about what the modification would be. You've been, probably for all of your years of superintendency, in many of the discussions -- at least publicly, probably some privately -- about concerns revolving around the residency requirement, and I think you actually changed or tightened or improved your residency requirement even for your cabinet members. Didn't we have that go-around a couple of years ago?
All right. Tell us a little bit about the other two issues -- school selection and the financial issues. And let me start with the financial first. Has any real study done of a comparison between what Philadelphia's starting salary is and, I guess, maximum salary over some period of years as compared to the other school districts around us -- class size, per-pupil spending, a whole array of factors that might lead someone to 2275 3/1/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. be here or be somewhere else. Has that kind of work been done?
We have done some of that. I said a little earlier that the starting salary gap is $3,000 -- it's actually closer to 3500. It's also the case that we're down at the bottom of the average salary for the 61 other school districts in Southeastern Pennsylvania. To my knowledge, for purposes of human resources, I don't know of any study that has lined up relative class size and some of the other factors that you mentioned, and I think that's a good idea, and I think we ought to see if we can't take a pretty good shot at finding out what that is. I mean, obviously, when you have $1500 less per student to spend in each classroom, one of the things that that's going to get spent on is lower class size, and so we're going to -- we don't have to do a study to figure out that we're going to be at the short end of that stick as well. It goes back to what President Verna said a little while ago: that if you have larger 2276 3/1/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. class sizes and, in many instances, more challenging kid and more dilapidated buildings and etc., etc., it's going to present significant challenges in recruiting teachers. That said, I must say that we've got 12,000 folks that the vast majority of whom in the classroom are doing a very dedicated job, and we get hundreds of people every year who want to teach in Philadelphia 'cause they want to teach in Philadelphia because they care about the kids here.
So I don't want to paint this in some entirely negative way, but those represent big-time issues for us.
On the other financial issue, you have listed here as "loan payback." Is there any data or information that indicates that other systems either around us or possibly in other large urban areas who may get assistance from their state or county governments? Are there incentive programs that exist or can be created that allow you to attract people based on the motion that, I know you just 2277 3/1/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. got out of school, you probably have a fair amount of debt, there are ways of debt forgiveness if you commit to being in X-Y-Z place for X-amount of time? Do any of those programs exist around us, or are we able to create any on our own?
They no longer exist for our teachers. There used to be both a federal program and a State program that did precisely that, and tens of thousands -- scores of thousands of teachers who began their teaching experience -- I guess those really began to go into place in about 1957 or '58. There was some Sputnik impetus to that, and they carried through all across the nation until not too many years ago. But in Pennsylvania, all that's dried up. And yet, it's one of the things that really did lure young people into teaching.
Well, did I understand from the earlier discussion and I think the Chair made reference to maybe a story on TV somewhere last night or some newspaper article 24 that indicated that we're not the only ones that are facing teacher shortages or teacher 2278 3/1/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. recruitment problems. Is this an issue that can be raised at a higher level that might allow for a next wave of these kinds of programs? I mean, we're talking now 40 years later. If you're saying that this started back in the late '50's and we're now in the late '90s, people have kind of gone through an entire career now of teaching, and a lot of these people are people leaving. And is this now a time to bring some of these kinds of programs back?
We absolutely agree with that, and the Council of Great City Schools, which is the organization made up of Philadelphia and about 47 other big cities in the United States, one of the things that they've been pressing is the re-institution of federal forgiveness programs, and, certainly, it's been something that we've had conversations with folks in Harrisburg. They do again fall into the category of they cost money.
Can you very 2279 3/1/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. briefly explain that process?
Well, there are two things. There are both timing and absolute selection. The selection of schools is governed by the contract. And for the most part, seniority determines -- seniority, and with new teachers, scores on tests determines where you go and. So there is --
And so there's very, very little flexibility in terms of where a person is assigned. And our system in Philadelphia remains one of the most rigid in the country.
I'm sorry, Councilman Nutter, your time has been up.
Mr. Hornbeck 2280 3/1/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. can respond to your last question, and then we'll have another go-around.
Dr. Hornbeck's statement was that the system in Philadelphia is rather rigid or is more rigid than most other places in the country. My question to him was, what does that mean and in comparison to what?
Well, the restrictions that, for example, arise out of the seniority provisions in our contract are a lot more rigid than most of the other big-city contracts in the United States. And that means that there is a much more locked-step assignment of people based just on seniority than there are on in other places, and that reduces flexibility. It's just a fact of the contract. It's something that, up into this point, both we and the Federation have agreed to, and so I'm just describing at this moment the fact. 2281 3/1/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. The other thing that plays in that is the fact that there are dates in the contract which have to occur sometime in July, I think, before the assignment of teachers can begin. Or if it begins before that, somebody who's assigned that is, for example, less senior, may be dislodged later if a more senior person wants to go into that position. So that the kind of -- if we hire a young teacher in April and we want to be able to say to that teacher, In April, you're going to be teaching in X elementary school, we can't do that because of these various restrictions on placement.
Well -- but you're saying that this brand new teacher, possibly knowing very little about the Philadelphia public schools, is making a decision whether to come here or not based on what may be very little that they know about the system in general? And if they can't go to the school that they want to go, they just decide not to come here at all? I mean, is that what happens?
In some instances. And 2282 3/1/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. we have increased very significantly the number of student-teachers, for example. So it's not as if somebody's coming here from Idaho and, you know, arrives on the airplane and says, you know, where is North, South, East, and West Philadelphia? I mean, a lot of these young people are people from student-teachers, went to Temple, went to Cheyney, you know, etc., etc.
Thank you. The Chair recognizes Councilman Kenney.
Thank you, Madam Chair. We've known about this problem for a little bit of time, haven't we, as far as our ability to recruit teachers and the rigidity of our situation here that has kept us from being a successful effort?
The provisions of the contract have basically been what they are for quite a long time, yes. The availability of teachers and the vacancies has increased dramatically. 2283 3/1/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST.
Why, then, didn't we attempt to negotiate that either out or differently when we negotiated and settled the last contract? Why wasn't that a major provision of efforts? Maybe the union would have accepted something in lieu of changing -- or in exchange for changing that rigid policy. Why isn't it that these kind of work rule changes, why weren't they accomplished in the last contract?
Those were major issues for us, and we were unsuccessful in securing them.
Okay. The PFT, I understand, had indicated that they would be interested or at least proposed to create an academy-type high school would, in fact, train teachers, future teachers. Are you aware of any such proposal, and is this any movement in that direction? I mean, it seems like a logical solution of helping our problem of finding teachers when we have a special school for people who are interested in becoming teachers, and maybe it would attract some Philadelphia residents with some promise of future opportunities in the school 2284 3/1/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. system.
That particular proposal from the Federation hasn't come to my attention, but I think that the notion of special initiatives where we grow our farm team, in a sense, makes a lot of sense. I don't know about singling out one school off some place but having -- it used to be, years ago, for example, that there was even an organization called "Future Teachers of America" that I think went out of existence now years 12 ago, and we should start things like that 13
What's wrong with 14 creating a separate school to do this as we do 15 with arts and culture, as we do with engineering 16 and science, as we do with other things? Why 17 can't we -- what's wrong with creating it only for 18 teachers? 19
I don't know that 20 there's necessarily anything wrong with it. There might be something more right with making that opportunity more conveniently available in the neighborhoods around the City, especially when you need so many teachers.
There were, I 2285 3/1/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. understand, last year 3,000 applications for the High School for the Creative and Performing Arts.
And I believe that about 240 or so available slots. My understanding is from the people that apply that not necessarily everyone wants to become Whitney Houston but the parents of these students want the arts and cultural component of a high-caliber academic program. Not everybody in there wants to be a professional entertainer.
Why, then, do we not play to our strengths and to our customer base, so to speak, and create a Northeast CAPA or a Germantown CAPA or a Southwest CAPA? Why are we not attempting to accommodate the demand that parents have for these kind of schools and attempt to kind of -- 'Cause what happens is, the other children who were turned down have a couple options: they can go to their local public high school, which they may or may not want to do; they can stay or go into a parochial or a private 2286 3/1/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. school; or they can move which, sadly, so many people are doing. Why are we not taking what works and replicating it to keep our people here and to keep our students and parents happy?
Well, there is some of that. For example, at Overbrook, there is an art small-learning community, and it responds to those kind of needs. There are several now music-and-arts small-learning communities being the theme around which the academic program is designed. So some of that is, in fact, going on.
The biggest request I receive as a Councilperson as it relates to education is trying to help people attain both GAMP (ph.) and CAPA. And, again, I sense that there's a resistance to these specialized type of schools that seem to be extremely popular with parents. And while I recognize the desire to do these smaller learning communities and to have maybe this small teachers high school, you know replicated in a couple different places, what's wrong with high schools that are dedicated to 2287 3/1/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. interests, one specific interest or related interests that people are flocking to? I understand CAPA takes tuition from suburban students and lets those suburban come in and pay tuition. I mean, for me, that is not only a success; it's a popular success. Why are we trying to keep people in the normal high schools when they are seeking something different?
Well, I think the issue is -- first of all, let me be clear not about CAPA and some of the special-admission schools that exist at the moment. I think part of the issue has to do with whether we're going to create really terrific opportunities just for some kids or whether we're going to organize the way in which we do school reform so that, for the first time in anybody's memory in Philadelphia, it tries to meet the needs of a lot more kids. And we think that the art interests, the music interests, the engineering interests, the whole series of those kinds of interests can and should be met all across the City. It's not at all a comment about CAPA or any of the other places being bad; it's about making all the other 2288 3/1/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. places good so that we cease losing people to the suburbs.
Problem face in that regard is those 2750 families turned down from cap not going to wait 2, 3 years until get to where we want to be in our public high schools because they only have four years to go to high school so if you say we need or years to fix this system those children are out of system and they'll be relocated to other communities in order to access the choices that they want to Mac about their kids education we're losing people in the long run by not giving them what they want today as opposed to three years from now.
The fact is more than a few of those 2700 kids are not as good dancers and singers and dramatists and, therefore, whatever the new CAPA would be would not be CAPA. And the issue also has to do with the drama teachers, the music teachers, the art teachers. So you just can't wander off and say, Let's have a new CAPA with the same level of audition experience and the same level of teachers.
I would suspect the 2289 3/1/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. cohort of children that were turned down in the first tier aren't that far removed from the talent level of the children who were accept. But the issue is not that we're turning out Frank Sinatras; the issue is that we're turning out children with cultural opportunities and high academic opportunities at the same time that are clearly what parents are demanding. It's almost as if the administration has a vision of what they want high schools or our education institutions to be like, parents have another vision, and what we're saying to those parents is, Look, accept our vision, wait three or four years, and then we'll make it better. But in the meantime, they're not willing to sacrifice their child's four-year education in high school to something that's not yet there for them to access.
Well, I think the vision of parents across the city is that they want their kids to go to good schools, where they're going to get a strong education and one in which they can expect their young people -- and especially those who don't want to be Whitney Houston -- to perform 2290 3/1/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. at really high levels and be successful as adults. And that's exactly the same vision not so much that I have for all the kids, but, for example, that I have for my own children. And that's the way that I set standards. I want for all kids what I want for my own kids, and there's been too little of that in Philadelphia over the years.
And, philosophically, I would not disagree. But practically, what we're asking to do is, a parent whose child was turned down on the top tier from CAPA to send their child to Southern. And they're saying, I'm not sending my child to Southern; I'm either going to do one or two things -- I'm going to send that child to Neuman or to St. Maria Goretti or I'm going to move into Washington Township and send them to school there. And, I think, is the thing that we're not facing at this point and we need to continue to face. And while I commend and praise you for your efforts and philosophy, in looking forward, I think we're losing track of the three or four years now where we're losing these kids and we're 2291 3/1/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. losing their families. More importantly, they're moving to communities and going somewhere else. So I just think we ought to work on replicating what works and what people want. Thank you.
Thank you. The Chair recognizes Councilman Ortiz.
. Thank you, Madam President. I just want to follow up on what Councilman Kenney said because I think everybody wants that. When I sat here for now years, and 14 during those 14 years, I've seen school programs get decimated because of lack of resources, and I've seen schools that have had art programs and musical programs in their schools eliminate those programs and replace them with what I call "itinerant teachers" who come in once a week to teach art. I have a daughter in the 3rd grade in public school, and she's a good artist. And on weekends, I send her to Fleischer Art School, but she does not have an art teacher in her school. And that's not a situation of not wanting. I 2292 3/1/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. mean, I want a full art teacher in that school. My daughter's interested in art. The thing is resources. Where do we get the resources so that there isn't only one CAPA but that Girls' High School and Central High School and Edison High School can put on dramas during the year, they can put on shows. I know that there was auditions at Girls' High the other day for Li'l Abner, I think it was. One of my niece's friends from Central was auditioning for one of the parts in the show. So the aspect is that we want the high schools and the schools to have the resources. What we're not focussing on is -- because people, I saw some parents here yesterday with signs that said, "Don't Cut Our Budget." And they don't understand that City Council is not going to cut this budget. In fact, we don't create the budget -- you guys do, you come in, and we just pass legislation to get the taxation, and God almighty, we hope that it stays at the same level, but that we're not cutting and we're not adding anything except the $15 million that we have become accustomed to, but we're not cutting anything. 2293 3/1/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. And I think an understanding has to be brought that we have spent over ten years cutting back on programs across the City -- art and music. The school where my daughter goes to used to have a Latin teacher. They don't have it anymore; the lady comes in once a week. Those programs that enrich not just math and reading but that create the atmosphere within a school that kids get interested in. We have spent ten years cutting that back because of the lack of money. People don't want to be able to realize that, but we have spent a whole lot of time, and every time we make a managerial move, it seems that it goes towards saving money but it does not come to put in other monies in terms of educational situations. So, you know, when we talk about that, I want Kensington High to be able to offer the kids at Kensington a drama department; they don't have one now, they don't have one now. So that they can put on their shows. The issue is, how do we get to there? How do we make every high school, every green field, every (unintelligible) a school where kids 2294 3/1/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. don't get art only once a week with a teacher that comes in, but where they have a librarian every day of the week. I think that's the issue that confronts us as a City Council. One of the reasons that I'm asking for a change in the governments is so that we, as Council people, can become much more accountable for the overall funding of the schools, so that we just don't speak about it. But that parents can actually say, well, you know, You guys are responsible, you and the Mayor are responsible for the educational system of this city. And we should be, and we should be. And we're currently not at that level yet. We pass legislation, but we don't take the responsibility because we don't have it; that falls on the Board of Ed. You create the budget. You create priorities, you go ahead. So I want my daughter to have a full art teacher and I want my daughter that attends public school to have a full drama classes if she so wishes to do those things.
We share that, Mr. Ortiz. And let me you just say, referring again 2295 3/1/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. to the Fair Opportunities to Learn standards that is in your document, the $300 million that the President referred to a little while and on graduation and promotion requirements. If we had those funds, then every school would have art, music, drama, world languages, four years of math, four years of science. There would be that opportunity, and kids would need to be able to demonstrate proficiency in those areas over a period of time.
I'm sorry, Councilman, I think your time is up. We've been having five minutes and then the next go-around. The Chair recognizes Councilman Nutter.
Thank you, Madam President. With respect to the comments of my two colleagues, Councilman Ortiz and Councilman Kenney, about more art and drama in schools, while I generally support that, the notion of my daughter having additional access to dramatic teaching, given her currently dramatic state of affairs at four years old, makes me quite nervous that she'll actually learn more and learn how to 2296 3/1/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. be even more dramatic later on in life, but that remains to be seen. Dr. Hornbeck, I recall a couple year ago there was a study that came out. I think you had an independent assessment done, which kind of goes back to a point that was raised by Councilwoman Verna about some of the schools in her district. My recollection is that a building assessment study was done that talked about revenues -- or, I'm sorry, costs in the area of maybe $750 million.
I seem to recall some large figure, about three quarters of a billion dollars was needed to --
What, if any, is the financing or funding plan to have long-term rehabilitation of the facilities that are in need?
Councilman Nutter, the System-wide Assessment was completed two years ago, and the price tag was about $765 million for 2297 3/1/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. bringing our buildings up to our predetermined standard. Of that $765 million, approximately $400 million is routine maintenance items, items that would have to be paid for from the Operating Budget. The other 300-some million dollars would be projects that could be funded from our Capital Budget. And to a great extent, we address those problems on an ongoing basis. However, the $400 million is problematic because our maintenance budget in the Operating Budget cannot come close to addressing those needs.
In this current budget in front of us, just to give some shape and scope to this, what's your current routine maintenance or operating maintenance budget?
Our maintenance budget is approximately $25 million. In addition, we have contracts for between 5 and $7 million, where we contract with private firms to do some of the work we can't do in-house ourselves.
How does -- if you don't know, you can get back to me. The $25 2298 3/1/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. million that the School District allocates to maintenance of its facilities, that's 200-and -- I know the number changes because schools kind of open and close. And how many school are there, 257?
263. All right, then 257 was last year's number. Do you have any idea how that compares to the City's Operating Budget for maintenance for all of our various buildings and facilities?
No, I don't, but I certainly can get you that information.
I'd be interested in that comparison. So in any given budget year -- and in this one probably more than those in the past -- you have $25 million for routine maintenance. Your study indicated that you need $400 million to get facilities to a certain level, and then you've got your capital expenditures of approximately $360 million. What do you plan to do on the capital side?
Well, on the capital 2299 3/1/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. side, we have a very aggressive capital program that includes not only new construction but also projects to improve the current condition of schools. We concentrate on what we call the "envelope of the building" -- roofs, windows doors, so that --
And have you explored any additional financing -- I'll call them call them "schemes" or "mechanisms" outside of your regular annual Capital Budget allocation? For instance, in trying to deal with an ongoing long-standing pension problem, the City last year went into the bond market for $1.2 billion for pension obligation bonds. It's somewhat of a different financing mechanism to deal with a very high unfunded liability problem with our pension system. We had the PICA bonds that were floated many years ago to deal with again the City's own fiscal crisis -- actually done at a time when the 2300 3/1/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. District wasn't in as bad of shape as we were. The times have now switched. Have you taken a look at what the possibilities are to deal with large capital needs and infrastructure needs for the School District that you might be able to access other funding mechanisms or resources to get close to this number?
Well, yes, we have. We are currently in the beginning stages of looking at a System-wide Energy-Saving Initiative, where a private firm would potentially fund all of our energy-related infrastructure needs with some guaranteed savings over a long-term contract. In other words, somebody would put the money up front to finance boilers and air-conditioning systems and relighting our buildings and so forth. We're also looking with great interest and anticipation at the proposed federal legislation to provide funding for improving -- or increasing our Capital Budgets.
This is Germaine Ingram. Let me just add one point to that. Over the last couple of years, we've 2301 3/1/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. proposed to the State on at least a couple of occasions that this there be a redefinition of capital spending as opposed to operating expenditures for maintenance and construction. We think that in that way, much of this $400 million that the Perks-Reutter Report indicated is Operating Budget money could be transferred to the Capital Budget and might be eligible for State subsidy. We feel that it would be a win/win for both the District and the Commonwealth because as it stands now, because we don't have operating money, there are repairs and maintenance that are deferred until they become a capital expenditure. And if we were able to get a redefinition, we could keep our buildings in better shape and do it for less money overall.
Okay. I know the buzzer has gone off, but I think, as we all know, one, the expenditures are never really deferred; they are just avoided, and they are often three, four, five times what they would have been if we had taken care of them at an operating level as opposed to a Capital Budget level. 2302 3/1/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST.
I think that may be one other of those areas that Councilwoman Clark suggested might be worthy of discussion with the State.
Thank you, Councilman Nutter. Superintendent Hornbeck, I have a question, a couple questions too regarding overcrowding. As you're well aware, in my district, the John B. Kelly Elementary School rents four classrooms at Wissahickon Boys' Club. And I think right now, it's pretty satisfactory except that I have still heard that the school's overcrowded. Is the concept of the Little Schoolhouses one of the methods that you're using to relieve overcrowding? And can you tell us exactly what a Little Schoolhouse is and what the facilities are that are included? Because someone said they don't have rest rooms.
Yes, Councilwoman Miller. The Little Schoolhouse is one of the 2303 3/1/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. strategies that we've been using. We have opened six -- five, and we have three to go. We've opened five so far, and we have three more under construction now. They range -- the smallest one at Francis Hopkinson is six classrooms. The majority of them are twelve classrooms. And then there's one at eleven and one at eight. They are permanent facilities. They're made out of brick. When I first heard the name "Little Classroom," I thought of this little place, and it's a lot of a little place; it's, as I say, has as many as twelve classroom in it. But it does take up a whole lot less space. It can be put in an area that's not all that much bigger than where we used to put trailers -- for example, thinking of the John B. Kelly School, where we've made some real progress in the last three years. It is -- we use them only for -- I think they're all in elementary school locations, so they're for the younger children. And they have in addition to the eleven or twelve classrooms, they also have a large common room 25 that can used for like small assemblies and that 2304 3/1/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. sort of thing.
Okay. When you said that it takes the place of the trailers, does that mean that you're not going to put any more trailers up?
No, unfortunately, trailers still remain cheaper than little classrooms.
And so we can't abandon that altogether, but there have been places where we've used this instead of the trailer.
This was brought up at the meeting one night last week regarding Penrose, and they kept referring to "the Little Red Schoolhouse," which I never heard of. What does a Little Red Schoolhouse cost?
4 million? I beg your pardon? 2305 3/1/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST.
Would it therefore be cheaper to put on an extension at Penrose rather than have a Little Schoolhouse attached to it?
Probably not. The -- let me ask Mr. McGlenchy here to respond, but it has to do with altering a present construction, which is always a bit more expensive.
No. I guess the nomenclature "Little Schoolhouse" really doesn't explain the facility itself. It is a little self-contained building that has upwards of twelve classrooms, with a common space for feeding children and for an assembly, full bathroom facilities, as well as its own mechanical heating and air-conditioning systems. So it is in effect a little school. One of the requirements for constructing a Little Schoolhouse is, you have to have enough ground on the existing space of a 2306 3/1/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. school. We do not set up separate educational administrations for the Little Schoolhouse. It is, in fact -- it has a "mother" building, if you will, and the principal of the mother building is also the principal of the Little Schoolhouse. The biggest problem is to have enough room on the school property to locate it, giving consideration to all the codes that apply in terms of setback from the street and parking per numbers of staff members and occupants. So not every school in the City can accommodate a Little Schoolhouse.
I am told that Penrose does have the necessary room for such a schoolhouse. That being said, you said there were three on the waiting list?
There are three. One is currently under construction and two are in the design mode.
How long would it take before Penrose could be considered?
Who are the two on the waiting list? You have two more that's in design phase? 2307 3/1/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST.
There's one under construction at the Creighton School, and that's planned for opening in September of 1999. There's design begun at the Day and the Lamberton, and they're expecting to open in September of 2000. So it's probably -- in effect, it's a 15- to 18-month process from design to construction.
Are any additional schoolhouses planned per year? Or will this -- you'll do nine, and that's it?
This would be one of the things that as we look at Penrose and at other places, there will be places where this is a suitable response for the next place that we're able to do and places where it wouldn't make sense, either because more room is needed, for example. I mean, where we built the new Marine School, for example, a Little Schoolhouse wouldn't have done 'cause that school has, I don't know, 50 classrooms. And in other places, there wouldn't be room. But my guess is that in the additional 2308 3/1/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. places, there WILL be -- that the Little Schoolhouse would make the most sense. And maybe it does at Penrose; we'll have to look at that.
Basically, our Little Schoolhouse prototype is geared for children kindergarten through 3rd grade, and it may be stretched a little bit to 4th grade, and that's their basic scale and size and construction philosophy at this point in time.
Has the trailers been designed differently? And one of the reasons I ask is that one of the charter schools in the 8th Councilmatic District could not get zoning because children had to leave -- they were doing modular unit children had to heave the main units. Children had to leave the main unit and go outside to use the rest rooms. So I had a meeting with Tom Kelly, and he said he was no longer going to approve the fact that children had to leave one building to go outside and use another. He wanted them to either connect or everything to be pretty much in one. And one of our arguments was that the 2309 3/1/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. School District has children in trailers that have to go out. And he says that he's no longer going to approve any of those types of facilities, which would lead me to believe that your trailers have to be different if you're going to continue to use those in the future.
Mr. Kelly is not happy with our trailer arrangement, that's absolutely correct.
And the problem is that if you make plumbing permanent to the trailer, it no longer becomes a portable building; it is then subject to permanent building codes. And there's a real dichotomy that, you know, it's not concrete walls, it's not a permanent structure. So some there's some of the things we're trying to consider. But the trailers we have now do not come with plumbing in them. They have electrical hookup, air-conditioning, but there is no plumbing connections.
Okay. I just wanted to do bring that to your attention. I know 2310 3/1/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. that they used to have the wider trailers that, to me, kind of looked like a double trailer or maybe even a modular unit. And they seemed to be more useful in having those kind of rest room 6 facilities that they're wanting you to have now with the trailers. This was years ago. I have a question regarding school safety. Have your efforts and steps that you've taken to make schools safer produced any results?
They have, Councilwoman Miller. And there have been a whole series of steps taken. We've increased the number of schools police, we've put cameras in a lot of schools, we have citywide phone numbers that you can call, we've got the accommodation rooms to get disruptive kids out of classroom, etc., etc. Overall, we've seen a percent 19 decrease in the number of weapons found in our 20 schools. With respect to assaults, which were 21 level for two years, they dropped by 5 percent in this last school year. Robberies have gone down two years in a row -- 28.7 percent in '96-'97 and 32.3 percent in the '97-'98 school year. So there are measurable concrete ways 2311 3/1/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. that we see the effects of the measures that we've taken. That's not to say that we must not stay vigilant; we have to, but we are making progress.
Last year, when the Police Commissioner came to Philadelphia, I asked him his opinion of whether police -- oh, I asked him actually if New York schools had New York police in them, and he said no, that the School District has its own police force. And I know Philadelphia schools have school security or I'm not really quite sure of the exact name or title.
Do you believe -- many schools in my district have school police but they also have Philadelphia police officers. And when there was a suggestion that the police be pulled from the schools, parents, teachers people were outraged. Do you believe that perhaps if your officers had arrest powers that that would make a 2312 3/1/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. difference in helping people feel a little safer? And just what is the whole plan or analysis as it relates to school police versus Philadelphia police?
I think that there's no 7 question but that the police that are on-site in some of those schools that you're talking to, that's very desirable. The relationship between the School District and the Police Department has been a good one. And, in fact, I went in and met with a couple of district commanders when it looked like that was going to happen and took the position that I hoped that they would change their mind, and they did. But I think that, in my own judgment, it is better that the -- for the norm to be that school police, who are unarmed and who have a history of relationships with the principals, be the normal way that it is conducted. We have developed over the years -- we had it with Commissioner Neal, it has continued, and, if anything, grown better with Commissioner Timoney -- a strong working relationship with the police. One of the things that we did do -- I 2313 3/1/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. guess it was about the first year I was here or maybe right at the beginning of the second year, was to change the status of the school police so that they are now full-fledged sworn police officers. And within the jurisdiction of the school, they have the powers of arrest. They do not have jurisdiction outside of the boundaries of the school; that still belongs exclusively to the City police. But we believe that wearing uniforms, the additional training that goes along with being the powers of policing, all of that has contributed to the kinds of improvements in these numbers that I talked about a little while ago.
Okay, thank you. The Chair recognizes Councilman Kenney.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Superintendent, could you explain to me what "active/on roll" and "inactive/on roll" means as it relates to attendance? I understand that there might be two separate categories of --
There is. Let me ask 2314 3/1/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. somebody who knows better than I. (Naomi Gubernick comes forward.)
This is Naomi Gubernick, who works with our Family Resource Network, and issues of attendance and absence and truancy is one of many areas for which she is responsible.
Children who are considered "active, off-rolled" children are students whose attendance is not as regular as we would like it to be, who come to school for a week or are absent for two weeks, come back, but we can predict that they will just be coming in and out of school. There are a number of students, though, who start school with us and then, for whatever reason, do not come back to school. We know they are not coming back to school, and we have made every effort to get them back into school, and those are children who are considered inactive students and who eventually are dropped from our rolls.
Now, is there a 2315 3/1/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST. minimum age requirement that when we develop children from the rolls? I mean, if the child is a freshman, say, in high school and is on the inactive/on roll, that child is somewhere.
We pursue compulsory attendance rules for those children through Family Court and Truancy Court.
Do we count -- for our daily attendance purposes, do we include in that count the inactive/on-roll children?
So when we get a number of daily truancy or daily non-attendants, that includes both of those categories.
At what age does a child good dropped from the roll? If the child's inactive/on-roll, never comes to school, is 16 or 17 years old, when are they officially dropped?
I believe it's sometime after their 16th birthday but I can check the exact date for you.
Okay. And they are no longer counted; is that correct? 2316 3/1/99 WHOLE COMM./BUDGET/SCHOOL DIST.