The Chair recognizes Councilmember Jamie Gauthier, then Councilman Nicholas O'Rourke is back. Councilmember Nicholas O'Rourke and then Councilmember Jim Harrity.
Thank you, Council President. Good afternoon, Dr. Watlington, Board President Streater and Vice Chair Andrews. Thank you for joining us today for this important conversation. Board President Streater, I appreciated your sentiments and the mayor's around Council and the administration and the school district needing each other. And your expression that you want to continue working with Council in true partnership towards the benefit of our kids. But I do want to be clear that what that looks like in practice would be Dr. Watlington moving off of the position that what has been put before us is a final, final version. And what that would look like in practice is honoring the majority leader's request that we have more time. Anything less than that standard is just kind of a pretty sentiment as opposed to a genuine effort to engage with Council around very difficult decisions. I also appreciate you all being here yesterday. And as I have said several times, I appreciate the changes that you've made to the facilities plan proposal including putting or recommending more investment for facilities in the 3rd District and keeping our school properties in school district ownership as opposed to moving them to developers for some type of non-school development. I think that those are important moral changes that brought more equity to this plan. But I also do want to be clear that the proposal that is on the table, particularly for the 3rd District, would still cause great harm to my community. And so I'm pushing for you to go further, and I hope that we can get there. And, you know, I appreciated the conversation yesterday, it was very spirited, but unfortunately, I come today with some of the same questions because as spirited as our discussions have been, I have left with few specific answers. And so today I'm going to be revisiting several of the questions that I have been asking, because I'm looking for answers that are specific and that are rooted in facts and data. Earlier this week, you amended your recommendation for Paul Robeson to keep the building and maybe, theoretically, someday create a new STEM high school. But you are still recommending that we close the existing Paul Robeson High School. If the Board of Education votes to approve this closure, you will be eliminating the last public high school in the heart of University City, a place where our kids are stone's throw away from some of the world's finest scientific and innovation institutions. And this is not something that can be replaced at Motivation or at Sayre or anywhere else that is not in University City. The community welcomes transforming Robeson to meet this moment, to maximize the advantages and opportunities that come with being surrounded by global STEM leaders. And we know that the building is in poor condition. And -- but we are willing to work with you to get a facility for Robeson to where it needs to be. But that is not the proposal that is on the table today in front of the board. And to our community, the proposal that you are putting before the board is reminiscent of one of the most shameful decisions that government has ever made in West Philly when we raise the black bottom to make way for what is now University City. And so we should be clear that if the Board of Education closes Robeson and uses their campus to possibly, maybe, one day make a new STEM school, but that school will not be called Robeson High, it will not be rooted in our community. It will not be rooted in our community's history. You'll be continuing the same shameful legacy of displacement and erasure that has happened in the past in West Philadelphia. So I'm going to repeat the questions that I still haven't received specific answers for, for the benefit of my constituents because they need to know. What does it cost to keep Paul Robeson high open? What does it cost to move Paul Robeson High?
What is the cost difference between co-locating Paul Robeson with Motivation and merging the two schools? And also, do you quantify the cost, or how do you quantify the cost of erasing black legacy in West Philadelphia? And how do you all -- how would you all feel to be the leaders to continue the legacy of institutional erasure of black people in University City? Because from my vantage point, that is what the proposal looks like.
Thank you, Councilmember Gauthier. Certainly, I want to -- I want to begin by saying that without speaking out of turn, that I'm sure both Board President Streater and myself, have great regard for our dear fraternity brother; the great Paul Robeson, the great statesman and Philadelphian --
-- and lawyer and prolific speaker. Let me say that the Paul Robeson building has a poor building score, and it is underutilized in terms of enrollment; No. 1. Two, we -- I proposed to move Paul Robeson and absolutely preserve that name. We would never ever provide a recommendation to discard that great legacy of Paul Robeson. So as we moved that -- merge -- recommend to merge that school with Motivation High School, we would go through a naming process in partnership with both communities -- I already started doing some thinking about that -- that appropriately recognizes and preserves that name. And we certainly can get you the cost of - it is outlined on our website. If not, we'll get it to you. What it would it cost if we were to have to -- we do it.
I have not seen those costs. I have asked you this question since the very start of this process. And I should say that the PFT was able to get me these costs. They think that the prospect of closing this proposed school, this beloved school in West Philadelphia, is so serious that they were able to answer my questions. And so PFT got me today information that says that the cost for essential repairs at Robeson High would be 4.3 million. The cost for all repairs at Paul Robeson High would be 9.6 million, and the cost of total replacement of the building would be 27.1 million. So thank you to the PFT for honoring this information request that I have put before the district since the beginning of this process. That is how serious the prospect of closing a school that the community loves is.
So, Councilmember Gauthier, if I may just say two things, and I certainly respect the Council member's points. Since last summer, we have placed a plethora of data on our website. I cannot run through all that in my head, but I do want to note for the record --
I just got a point of information. Just real quick, sir. What she is saying is, see, when you respond and say it is on the website, we are professionals.
I would just -- I would just prefer you to say that the experts, so I know Laurel is very competent in getting us information in our hand, as opposed to directing the member to the website or saying the information is on the website. That -- just want to -
Duly noted, Mr. President. I'll direct the team, our last Chief of Staff Galbally to make sure to get -- that we get a communication to you to fact check and verify exactly what you've heard from President Steinberg, so that you've heard from us on the record. We'll be sure to copy you, Mr. President, today. Second, may I just also say the real spirit of what we are trying to do under our five-year strategic plan; accelerate Philly, is address how to take our limited resources, invest more in children, and take the improvement that we are making in the school district, and multiply it by 20. And here is what that looks like in your district, Councilmember Gauthier; I know -- I really believe we can provide a better education at Paul Robeson. I think last year I looked at the numbers and their proficiency rate on state math Keystone testing was less than three percent.
And so we're trying to push those resources in. And the way to do it is we've got to -- we've got to drive faster improvement at the high schools. We're getting better at the K-8, but in the high schools, we've got to pull those limited resources. We've got to adjust those sizes of schools. Not too big, but we just can't quite get the --
If I could pause you for a second. I have heard your vision for the plan. So I think that I am not misunderstanding that this is your vision for the plan. I do want to get a couple specific questions answered before my time is up. My first question would be if you are going to retain the land for school district use and go through a process with the community about what should be there. And I'll say the community has expressed loudly and clearly what they want to be there; they want Robeson High to be there. It is not a mystery. So if you're going to keep the land in district hands, if you are going to add a $100 plus million more in investment, why can we not rebuild or renovate to have a new Robeson High in the same spot? Especially with these numbers that came from the great folks at PFT who thought it was a good idea to honor my information request. So if we know we're not talking about prohibitive amounts of money, why can you not do that?
In the near term, it would not be a financially appropriate investment to invest in a renovation of the school. Even --
And what are the factors that go into that decision?
It is kind of like when you total-loss of car, when it costs more to repair it than it does to replace it, the better option at Paul Robeson is to replace the building. So to replace the building, you would have to move children or young people anyway. So even if we were going to build a new school, which I think has strong merits there, we would need to --
I think that could work -- I think a temporary move could work.
We would need the children. We would need to move students for a period of time. And so when we move them, I think the other part of what you've asked me before is why not just co-locate the two schools separately versus merge them together, if I understood it correctly. And the reason is we've got to get a slightly larger high school size to be able to push more of our limited resources in to improve the academic performance.
Thank you. Very quick, in closing, I want you all to think about how my community views this, which is the continuation of the displacement of black people in University City from University City.
And I want to know if you're okay with that being your legacy. Thank you so much.
Thank you. Chair recognizes -Chair recognizes Councilmember Nicholas O'Rourke, Jim Harrity, and Councilmember Cindy Bass.
Thank you, Mr. President. Good afternoon. Testing one, two, there we go. Good afternoon to you. President Streater, Dr. Watlington, thank you for being with us this afternoon. I shared at Lankenau yesterday morning with a few of my colleagues who invited me to come up that I am not a district member and don't have the tight focus that my colleagues who do serve a particular district in the city have. But as an at-large member of this body, I have the great honor of representing the entirety of the city. And I have been invited by families and students to visit some other schools as well. So I want to lift up two schools in particular; Southwark Elementary in Member Squilla's district, as well as Moffett Elementary in Member Lozada's district. Last week, I was invited to view the conditions at Southwark Elementary. And I want to talk just for a minute about the emergency that is happening there. There are a total of just three toilets for 600 children to use on two entire floors of the school; the floors that house pre-K through 5th grade. It is not appropriate to force five-year-olds, with their little legs, to travel long distances through a school building where they regularly have to take flights of stairs just to attempt to find an open or working bathroom in the basement, which they are then forced to share with 8th graders. In some cases, they may not be able to go at all. And I heard mention yesterday morning of them -some folks having accidents on themselves as a result of having to wait to find something. If children regularly cannot use a toilet because the school does not have enough of them, or because the plumbing repeatedly fails, it begs the question, at least in my mind, how can the district be proposing a facilities plan that would not give those students new bathrooms until at least 2033? And quite possibly not even then. It begs the question how we can have in front of us a facilities master plan that does not set clear standards to ensure that all children at all schools in all neighborhoods are given the basic facility standards. Children need to learn and to learn with dignity. I think about this and I -- and I wonder, you know, is it anywhere in the plan that one could point to that demonstrates that at the end of years, every child 4 will have enough bathrooms, real 5 gyms, full playgrounds, cafeteria 6 kitchens add an HVAC system, an ADA 7 access. Do we know how many schools 8 have major floors with almost no 9 toilets or ratios like one toilet, 10 200 children, in areas that house our youngest children? And the question I think here is, will the district actually commit to auditing and remedying gross deficiencies in bathroom access?
If -- Dr. Watlington is going to answer, but I think you bring up a really good example of why I believe there is a perceived or a real sense of urgency for the Board of Education to address these issues. Understanding that Southwark, the proposal that Dr. Watlington has brought as it relates to timing, I'm not going to get into that. But the longer that we wait -- and again, this is not to say what is going to happen tomorrow or next week or what have you. But I'm hoping that we can use this as a safe space, we can understand the pressure points for both institutions. Without a supercharge of capital investment, the plan looks the way it looks, because that is our confidence in getting the level of investment we would need at the time that we would need. Two, we are also trying to address the issue of chronic underachievement, which precludes all of our babies in different parts of the city from being able to access the careers that you and I have been able to access and things like that. So for me, when I think of disparate impact, I'm not just thinking about disparate impact in the now, Councilmembers. I'm thinking about disparate impact when they become adults, when a child cannot realize any future that they can desire, because the School District of Philadelphia was unwilling to make tough decisions to reallocate resources so those children who may be in schools that they didn't agree to be in in the beginning, can still look back and say, I had the ability to be a lawyer, a bartender, a doctor, a welder, and things like that. And what I can tell you as the Board President sitting here for five years, four, as the board's president, if we continue operating the district the way we do with small schools, if we continue operating the district the way we do without reimagining our grade bands, access to more pre-K, we're going to have another problem in this city. Children who can't afford to live anywhere, who is going to be told what to do and make the political decisions that I believe some of us have -- some of our students have made -- some of -- some of us in Philadelphia have made around national elections and things like that. So it is really about student achievement for us. And if the plan wasn't responsive to Dr. -- to the resolution the board passed last year where that was the guiding post, I'll be the first one saying, Dr. Watlington, we got to start over from square one. But I do think that there is enough meat in the plan. Understand there is more work to be done that we can change -- I'm telling you-all, we can fundamentally change the lives of our children in Philadelphia. And I think the Mayor hit it on the head. I think there is enough stars in alignment in different spaces, including this room that is agreed to up our funding in historic amounts to really do that. So I do believe, though, in order to do that, there is going to be pressure and there is, there is going to be pain. And you all have agreed to that. Yes, we know there has to be closures, but it has to make sense. But what I can say is that I wanted to put that, kind of, understanding of why we're even considering these things. So I hate the fact that there are children who don't have bathrooms that operate in there because I have children in the district. It kills me that this happens. I hate the fact that we may have to tell some individuals their school might have to close. But what I would hate even more is that when I'm in the home for bewildered lawyers retired, in my 80s, that I can't say that we didn't do something to ensure that these children can learn how to fish. That is what I'm saying. And we have 85 schools that are unsatisfactory right now; pipes bursting during the winter, can't have air conditioning. I -- we have to do something about this, and I'm going to repeat what I said yesterday; if we don't do something about it, somebody is going to do it to us. Whether it is facility right sizing, or whether it is also the budget.
And we know what has happened to us before where we lost local control. That is a real concern for the Board of Education. I didn't say --
-- didn't provide anything that anyone said, Council President, but I wanted to share that so we can all understand our pain points. So as --
Mr. President Streater, if you don't mind, I don't mean to interrupt your flow. I do resonate with what you're sharing, but I did want to get the question as I asked it on the record --
Will the district commit to -- yes, sir. Yes, sir, I apologize if -- I didn't mean that --
Thank you so much, Councilmember O'Rourke. One, specific to Southwark -- Council President wants to get right away into this. Specific to Southwark, we are aware of the low ground plumbing issues; we're aware of the school design. I'm personally knowledgeable of that. And we're working closely with folks to do two things. In the capital budget, to look at how we can expedite some improvements there sooner than planned. Southwark is represented in the Facilities Master Plan to get attention at 2031, '32, I believe at present. We're looking with the capital budget, how we can expedite, because there are some significant plumbing issues there. Let me just also share with you --
Can I get a point of information real quick as you answer that question?
Just give me for the record, how many plumbers do we have working for the School District of Philadelphia?
I don't want to tell you the wrong number. Colonel Hill --
Because I know you do a lot of work with the district. And so I want to get an idea the plumbing and engineering staff.
I'll ask Colonel Hill to come to the dais. While he is coming, Councilmember O'Rourke, in this accelerate opportunity Facilities Master Plan, it calls for 60 complete bathroom renovations and 56 ADA improvements across the district. Colonel?
Oz Hill, deputy superintendent for operations School District of Philadelphia. Currently, we are authorized approximately FTE plumbing 16 positions. And at this time, we 17 have eight plumbing positions. We 18 have over 2000 restrooms throughout 19 the School District of Philadelphia. 20
21 So what is our plan to upgrade, 22 increase the level of hiring of plumbers? That is like the most basic need. We not even talking about anything else in the school that, like, the bells and the whistles, just the ability -- I hear it in this building, women say, well, half of the -- they want bathrooms in their own offices because they don't want to deal with some -- that is a different conversation. My point is, it is the most basic -- I'm not even going to call that amenity. It is just the basic right of a kid to get a chance to go to a bathroom that is clean and decent. And if you saying we have -- and I'm not saying it for the clap, see, but I'm just having a basic, just a basic conversation. If you're saying we are authorized the -- we're authorized for and we only have eight, and 22 we have a situation where I'm sure this is not the only school, this is probably one school that is organized, that has the ability to come here and advocate, but I'm sure there is other issues. I just want to know, what is the plan to increase, at a bare bones minimum, the staff, full 7 staff for plumbers? Just -- and it 8 is just a general question based 9 upon the point of information. 10
Yes, sir. We 11 recognize that having access to 12 functioning restroom facilities are 13 a human function, a human right, 14 that everyone should have, no 15 question about that. And it is a 16 priority for us, sir. To mitigate 17 the shortfall that we have in fully 18 staffed positions, we have general 19 service contractors that we use to 20 offset that challenge. 21 Additionally, as we talk 22 about Southwark in particular, we are working with the building committee to address those challenges. We are looking at deploying and employing mobile restrooms that are fully equipped and making sure that access to those restrooms are enclosed within the school structure. We are working also to address the linear infrastructure associated with the underground piping to support a higher volume --
And this is based upon, because some of the schools are old and so forth, and that is the capital investment that is needed to do the bathrooms over?
Mr. President, the bigger issue, though, is that the volume of old schools, old plumbing systems simply exceeds our resources. Let me give you an example. The only time typically that I have available for quiet time is about 5:15, when I get up to go to the gym. From 5:15 to 6:30 is my only quiet time, except when Colonel Oz Hill is calling me, or chief of Staff, Sarah Galbally is calling me to tell me we've got to close school A, B, or C today because the plumbing broke overnight, because the HVAC systems malfunctioned overnight, because the heat is no 15 longer working -- it was working when the team checked it before we -- everybody went to sleep, but about three in the morning, these old systems just caved in on us. So even if we give a 100 percent very best, we have to address, there are not adequate resources. And 35 percent of our schools are sitting vacant, and we're not using our resources efficiently in Philadelphia, as well as we can.
Understood, sir. Member Nicholas O'Rourke is going to be wrapping up his questioning and then Harrity, Bass, Dr. Nina Ahmad.
Yes. Thank you, Mr. President and President Streater, please know I respect you deeply. I just have a lot amount of time and I wanted to get my questions in. I didn't mean to cut up your flow, but respect both of you, Dr. Watlington as well, Dr. Streater, your work and your contributions to the city. Moffett Elementary was another school that invited me to join their community earlier in this planning process. Based on your most recent announcement, and thanks to their advocacy and CM Lozada's leadership in her district, I'm grateful to hear that Moffett will be kept in elementary school, not transitioned into a middle school. But your original plan allocated $8.1 million to modernized Moffett as a middle school. Will this $8.1 million still be allotted to the Moffett Elementary School for the needed updates; the bathrooms, electrical panel lighting, et cetera? And if so, what is the timeline? Will it follow the projected timeline as stated in the original plan? And after the district's original plan was announced, only 15 families accepted enrollment, out of 86 families that had applied. The original plan damaged the school's enrollment, leading to less money per student, and ultimately slashing their budget for the coming year. Can you speak to how the district will remedy that particular challenge? And that is -- those are my questions. Thank you for the time.
Councilmember O'Rourke, in the interest time, I'll just say as we've moved to transition Moffett Elementary to a K-4 school, and to -- with middle grades proposed to attend Ludlow, it requires to make some investments. I believe we've modified that to make the investments at Hackett in a -- in a -- in a multiple move, kind of, change there, if you will. This will allow us to grow the school through 8th grade, which I think is aligned with what we understand a lot of feedback to be. So we're trying to be responsive as best we can to some, if not all, of the community requests.
Councilmember Jim Harrity, then Member Bass, then Dr. Nina Ahmad, Rue Landau.
I'm just going to ask, and as a part of your statement, for the responses to be just direct summarized and direct as quickly as possible. And then I'm saying to -- for the member, you can just be direct, but also, I know add your level of commentary, but also just being direct so I can get everybody into this round.
I got you -- got you. Good morning. Being direct, all right. I was actually glad that the Mayor brought up the counties this morning. I get we can't --
Member Harrity with that big voice you have, speak into that microphone.
No, no, no. I -- come on. It has been a while, man. It has been a while. I'm in a pretty -
Thank you, though. You're right, because I am a little upset. So our mayor bought up the counties, and I get it, you know, we don't have the tax base that some of our counties have and, you know, the -- we don't tax the real estate as high. We also don't have real estate that is, you know, like they do. But $23,000 a year per student, that is the average in Del. Co., Bucks, Mont Co., and Chester County pays to educate their children. 90 percent Mont Co.; Del. Co., 90 percent; Bucks, 94 percent. That is their graduation rates. Philadelphia -- what -- remind me, what do we pay about per student to educate our kids? What is the number?
I'm going to ask Chief Herbstman to come in so we can fact check.
Yeah, I don't need a long number. It is about nine to $11,000 per student. Doesn't take much to figure out the difference in education between $23,000 per student and $11,000 per student on the higher. I have said it numerous times, if our kids got the same as the county kids, they would shock you because they have a reason to work for it. But what I'm saying is, I get it. I get that you guys are doing something, and I get that not all of you have been here when this catastrophe started. Today is Earth Day, right? Happy Earth Day, everybody, right?
Happy Earth Day. So I would like to shout out all our little environmentalists over at Lankenau, and just -- yeah, that is right. That is right. That is right, a 100 percent graduation rate at Lankenau. But yesterday I kind of tried to give you guys a little bit of a distinction between the difference between an environmental school and a farming and agricultural school. The distinction between environmental schools and agricultural schools lies primarily in the focus of curriculum and objectives. Here is that breakdown. Environmental schools' focus; environmental schools concentrate on study of ecosystems, conserve -- conservation, sustainability, and the impact of human activity on the environment. They aim to cultivate awareness, the action regarding environmental issues. Agricultural schools' focus; agricultural schools emphasize the science and practice of farming and food production. The curriculum addresses the techniques and technologies used in agriculture, livestock management, and food systems, right? Key differences: Core subjects; environmental schools focus on ecology and conservation. While agricultural schools focus on farming practices and food production. Clearly two different categories, two different kinds of teaching, two different kinds of curriculum, with definitely two different outcomes for each. I have said it yesterday, sometimes the environmental schools and the agricultural schools are on different sides of an issue. They study different things. So thinking that bringing them over to Saul because it is an environmental -- an agricultural school is going to be close or the same as where they were coming from, an environmental -- no, they were able to concentrate on the environment. When they go to Saul, they are going to have to compete with a program that is already established, that is actually studying, kind of, way different stuff. How are these kids supposed to -- I just want to know, how do you plan on not ending up phasing out Lankenau once they get the Saul? Because we all know that, you know, the precedent of the school is going to take place. Like, you said, the principals have some leniency, but how can we say that one school is -- that deals with something completely different than another school are interchangeable? Can you answer me that question.
Thank you, Councilmember Harrity. The best way I'll answer that, and I mean this in all sincerity, sir, that just like Carver Engineering and Science can deliver a strong program, even though it is not located beside the Temple College of Engineering or a major scientific hub, Bodine High School can offer a very fine international relations curriculum, even though it is not located adjacent to City Hall or the United Nations. Lankenau High School can offer a very fine program being merged onto the Saul campus. I don't think it is dependent upon being in that one location. And quite sincerely, I want to note that Lankenau students would still, under this plan, have access to do field trips and other simulations and things on that campus because --
-- campus and turn around and learn. Do you have the environment and the school. It is just perfect there. I just don't get this interchange. We got a school that has a 100 percent graduation rate. How many schools in the City of Philadelphia have a 100 percent graduation rate? And I'll end with that. Thank you, Council president.
Certainly not the lion's share, and we need to do more work to get all schools. I will say that there is some room to make some significant improvement at Lankenau on the -- on the academic.
Thank you, sir. Chair recognizes, Councilmember Cindy Bass and Dr. Nina Ahmad and -- Nina Ahmad.
Get my public -- my public school education right. It is Dr. Nina Ahmad. For everybody that calls her Ahmad, it is Ahmad. Go ahead, Member Bass.
And just for the record, there is four members of my leadership team. I think oftentimes people mention Majority Leader Katherine Gilmore- Richardson and Majority Leader Isaiah Thomas. But there is also Deputy Whip over there, Cindy Bass.
Yeah, I don't trip on titles, but thank -- I appreciate the recognition, but thank you.
So I just wanted to make a statement. I'm going to put my questions out there and if you could respond because there is a lot going on here. And let me start by saying that there is not one person on this floor who is a member of City Council that is not a strong supporter of Philadelphia public schools. So I want to -- I just want to make sure we make that plain and that we have that as the lead off for this conversation, because it is often pitted as if you don't do what we say do, then you don't support this, that, or the other thing. And nothing could be further from the truth. There is not one person on this floor that has taken a single vote against any level of funding for the School District of Philadelphia. Every member here has in one way or another, supported funding, not just said that they support, but put that support into action by taking a vote or taking some sort of action to show that support by providing funding for the School District of Philadelphia. So there should be absolutely no question that this body is in full support of public education, and we have the receipts to prove it. So as we have this debate, it is important to recognize the history over the last few years. And as the Mayor stated earlier in her comments, we have always risen to the occasion without question. And we have always met the moment, and we have always also had some of the exact same concerns while meeting that moment. And so it feels disingenuous that, you know, we have these conversations, and we get -- we almost never get the answers that we're asking. And those questions, year after year after year, are almost always the same. The concerns are the same, that Council is not included in the decision making. And yet we bear the brunt of the blame for what happens with schools in the City of Philadelphia. We are not -- I want to just make sure everybody knows, we are not included; we have not been included in these decisions that affect each and every one of us. The community has not felt included. Beyond not including Council, more importantly, the parents, the community members, and the students. I went out to Parkway Northwest, and one of the things that the young folks said is, “why are they not listening to us? Why do they not hear what we have to say? ” The other thing that we talk about year after year after year, and still never get a real explanation, is around the allocation of scarce resources. It is always questionable. We just never have a clear understanding as to how resources and decision making is happening in the school district. And yet, as I said, year after year, we support; we always come through, and we want to come through. And at the same time, it almost feels like, you know, we can't keep doing the same thing. It is the definition of insanity, of doing the same thing over and over and over and expecting a different result. And as usual, we are here asking the same questions with limited to no answers. As usual, we are talking about -- we're asking questions, we're not really getting responses that make sense or that compute. As usual, we are hearing about fiscal cliffs and the deficits that are coming. As usual, there is a defense regarding the lack of input and disguising what you all will call, so-called, engagement as real input in decision making. And as usual, you know, we talk about, you know, things that don't make sense laying off up to 3000 or 300, but we need 2000. You know, these are the kinds of confusing conversations that really lead to a lack of support and a lack of confidence, I would say, by the general public in the district. So my questions are as follows: why have we not considered other options besides closing? That would include transporting students at overpopulated schools to schools that are far under capacity. Why have we not revisited the changes to the special admit policy that was done by the district that led to these changes?
Why should we think we'll get these school modernizations? It reminds me of soda tax, and we took those hard votes because, again, we take hard votes down here, and we expect folks to be able to come through on what they promised. We voted for the soda tax saying that it was going to fund new rec centers, new libraries, new parks, new playgrounds. And the evidence of that is just completely underwhelming to most citizens in the City of Philadelphia. They don't feel it, they don't see it, and they don't believe it. Dr. Watlington, you said that dropping out of school was a life-or-death decision. This is a statistic that you said, you quoted, you said that if you drop out, you don't have the same life expectancy as those who graduate. Now, if we know that closures lead to -- some young people will drop out because they're not going, like Councilman Jones said earlier, University City, the Overbrook. Some kids are going to be like, you know what? I'm just not going, like, I'm not going through all that. I'm not going to get beat up. I'm not going to get -- even worse -- something happening to me. And they'll just say, you know what? I'm just not going. And they will drop out. So what I haven't heard in the conversation is knowing what we know, how are -- how are you as a district going to capture that population of students and protect them? How are we going to make sure that they don't drop out? How are we going to protect them? How are we going to reach out and keep them in the fold? And finally, I want to say that there are too many closures west of Broad Street. If you take a map of the City of Philadelphia and you draw a line straight down the middle of long Broad Street, most of the closures that have happened, whether it was years ago, 6 years ago, or now, more than the 7 fair share of those schools are on 8 the -- on the west side of Broad 9 Street. 10 And that is based on 11 population shifts, and we understand 12 that. But what happens when those neighborhoods rebound, and population -- which, you know, trends go all kinds of ways, right? So when those neighborhoods come back around with much more robust population, what happens then? When we put, you know, apartment units in those neighborhoods, in these old buildings that we've now converted to apartment units, where are those kids going to go to school? They're going to go all the way over to the east side of Broad Street too? The fact of the matter is, one half of the city will have a whole lot more educational options than the other half. There is no 6 getting around that. And I believe -- I don't believe you intended it this way, but I believe it is irresponsible planning for our city. In many areas, schools are the only evidence of tax dollars being reinvested and working in our communities, and we just can't take that away. And so there is a lot going on. Philadelphians, under this proposal, will pay more. Undoubtedly, they'll pay more. In some ways, and they'll get less in other ways. There is a lot happening with the closure of schools, the relocation of students by the thousand as proposed, the questionable renovation and remodeling of schools, taxes on deliveries, taxes on rideshares, jobs being preserved, vacancies in the mix, and somehow parking tickets and SEPTA rides are also being the responsibility of the school district. So I'm asking you --
Make it all make sense. Make it all make sense. And one last question -- one question. Pickett School investment; you had told me in January or February, Dr. Watlington, that there was going to be a $12 million investment in the Pickett pool. Is that still on the table? And also the Marcus Foster Pool, we still have -- we've been asking for years and haven't gotten a response.
All the pools being done in the third, Member Bass.
Since Council President is not going to give me a lot of time to answer this, I'm going to be really quick. I want to --
I'm going to ask Colonel Hill if he'll come back to the desk to speak to the pools at Pickett and the other pool you referenced. The other three questions, I'll answer as succinctly as I can. Number one, relative to dropouts, yes, dropping out of school is a life-or-death issue. And we are going to continue the work that we're doing in the school district right now, that in a city, in a school district that typically has about 4,000 young people who drop out between grades through 12 every year, we're going to continue the work that we're doing right now that has resulted in a reduction of 2000 -- about 2,237 or so dropouts. We're going to keep our foot on the gas in that regard. Number two, relative to the question about engagement, and are we listening to Philadelphians, you know, relative to the problem of we have a 65 percent building utilization rate across the city, which means that 35 percent of our footprint is sitting vacant or unused. We are very sensitive to any recommendations to -- around closure. At the same time, what I have said on the record, even here, if we don't want us to make this recommendation to close school X in district A, B, or C, when folks on Council say, well, take that off, I have said, please tell me which schools to put on -- put -- to put on if we take another school off. Because the only way we can address that 35 percent non-utilization rate is we've got to do some right sizing somewhere. And I don't say that in any way to be, you know --
I agree with you. I think you do have to do some right sizing, but the right sizing isn't in closing schools. The right sizing is moving students from schools that are over capacity to schools that are under capacity. This is simple. This doesn't have to be a closure conversation.
I think -- I think we've heard a huge theme across Philadelphia, and I learned that lesson the hard way. When we made a decision when one of the high schools closed and to move that -- those high school students, I believe it was Building 21, to Strawberry Mansion. And I faced a firestorm of parents on that Saturday morning and said we're not doing that, and I said, okay. But we're also sensitive to this notion about city of neighborhoods and kids having a crossover. I'm not so sure we want to go down the path of saying, okay, we're going to transfer kids from this neighborhood to other places where there is space. I think that could present some challenges as well. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying I think it presents some challenges as well.
There is way to do it. There is a way to do it, but right sizing is more than just closing schools. That is not the only way to right size. Thank you, Mr. President.
Just real quick. Point of information, Member Harrity. Brief point of information, please.
Brief. How about we just change the rules and allow the kids? That was one of the biggest complaints we got, is that the rules were changed. Well, change them back, right? The rules were changed so that the kids now don't qualify to get into certain schools. Change the rules back. And there is your problem; the kids will be there.
Thank you, sir. Chair recognizes Councilmember Dr. Nina Ahmad, then Councilmember Rue Landau.
Thank you, Council President. Good afternoon. It has been a long day and thank you for being here and sometimes facing our wrath, because we all care about the same thing; about our children succeeding. And to the Mayor's point, you know, she talked about us all working together. We have felt sandbagged because we got the decisions just before a vote being taken. So that's where some of our frustration is coming from. But I wanted to just piggyback on what Councilmember Harrity was talking about, celebrating Earth Day today, and really asking the question, do you value environmental science education? Number one, right? And if you do that, then this smushing together of these two schools, which Councilmember Harrity outlined to you how different they are, it compresses these different competencies, different learning environments. It is not sound educational planning and merging this does not preserve Lankenau. It would erase what makes Lankenau distinct. And we've gone over this all yesterday. So I wanted to ask you, you talk about making it an environmental center, bringing everybody there. Why can't you do that now with Lankenau still being there? Because you keep talking about, they're not using their space. So either you help them bring back enrollment, right? You can do that and give them a five- year reprieve to build back enrollment and operate under a serious turnaround and recruitment plan. Two, permit multiple sections of 33 students and establish a clear enrollment target, and then use tier one and tier two criteria to create desirability and stop losing interested families to charter, private, or parochial. We have a solution. We -- why are we not considering these solutions? Co-locate, do this, but you are like, nope, we are going to shut it. First, it was merge with Roxborough, didn't know what that meant. Then quickly, within a month you pivoted. So there is very little thought that went into it to such -- shut down a whole program. In one month, you pivoted from one to another. Second, you're talking about doing an environment, that is not a third option; environmental center. First, you're going to sell the land, then you found out you couldn't send the land, now you're like, okay, we'll make an environmental center. We already have an environmental center that has told us that not enough school district schools use it. So we could immediately solve that problem and make sure we have a relationship with the school called Center for Environmental Education and send our schools children there and preserve Lankenau. Every which way we look at it, there are roots to preserve Lankenau because it is unique. There is one environmental science magnet school in Philadelphia. One of two in the entire state. Why would you want to disrupt that when we are giving you options, giving you solutions? I really want an answer to that.
Good afternoon. Yes, certainly happy to answer the question, Councilmember Ahmad. Yes, do I value environmental science education? Absolutely, without fear of contradiction, yes, I do. As a trained historian and a non-scientist like yourself, I value environmental science education. I have been out to Lankenau more than one occasion and commend the staff and students for some very fine work occurring there. To that point, I have seen some stream work out in one of the rivers. And so I think it is really important hands- on education. I'm also trying to resolve -- thank you so much -- I'm trying to address the real crisis, and I'm not just going to say a problem, I'm going to say a crisis. I have got -- we have a crisis in this city, in the school district with 60,000 excess seats. And when we say, okay, we're going to recommend to close this school to make up the gap, to reduce those excess seats. If folks say, well, no, that is not the right one, and we say, okay, tell us what we ought to replace it with? I'm not getting that kind of feedback. Number two, I think that as we said earlier, environmental science education can continue in it. I do not believe that being located in that one building is a deal breaker. I'm not saying that I'm right, I'm just saying that is my -- how I see it.
Yeah, thank you for that. And I will refute you on this point of saying that you can do Lankenau curriculum in Saul. You cannot, because of the way Saul is constructed. You have -- first of all, you have Henry Avenue going through it, bisecting it, and then you have this built environment and animal husbandry going on. All of it is -- doesn't allow for children. This is what they're doing now; they can study migratory birds, participate in seed saving, seed collection, learn forestry, hydrology, conduct wildlife indexing, engage in sustainable crop production in this environment. You cannot do it there because it is not set up for that. You'll have to disrupt it completely and bring it back to its original form before anything was built. That is -- you cannot do -- you do not have the resources to do that. You cannot do it. We gave you a solution. We said to you, increase enrollment and these are the steps to do it. You are not answering that. I said, you can co-locate resources and have children still come from other places. I said, use SCEE more effectively. We are giving you solutions and you seem to just gloss over them because this particular school you seem to have an issue with, and I'm not understanding it. Tell us what it is that is stopping you from saying, we will look at these options. We will look at solutions. We will think about how to address this because of the unique nature. I'm not saying, you know, it is one of 20 and you're just shutting one down. You are not. It is the unique setting. This is the only place in your district that just -- that does GIS training. Only place in the state that does GIS training in high school.
You are going to take that away? So please answer --
Very briefly. I love Lankenau. Number two, a few years ago, we met with all the criteria-based school principals. We received their feedback and we worked with them and brought in an external review of our school selection process. And we said we're going to do this, we're going to continue with the school selection process, and we're going to make -- we are going to invite principals to be a part of decision making. Principals were a part of that decision making, including the Lankenau principal. They were able to review their criteria. And I want to say on the record, Mr. President, in the School District of Philadelphia, a number of the schools that are either criteria-based schools or citywide admit schools are not experiencing enrollment declines year over year singularly because of the school selection process. I want to be clear, and on the record, I have reviewed the data, and I strongly dispute this assertion that somehow a lottery, even with all its shortcomings, is the culprit for why we have declining enrollments in some of the criteria-based schools. I think it is patently false, and I'm happy to have more conversation about that, and I think schools have to be very careful about that. I have always thought that I'm -- if I'm leading a school, we're in a competitive market; district schools have to compete and not just cry about charter schools. Criteria-based schools have to compete, they have to make the case, they have to market themselves. And parents fought with their feet, and I fully respect that. So I do -- I do think we have to keep that in mind just as well. President Streater, were you going to answer that, sir?
Thank you, Council President. I will follow up with the detailed letter also refuting what you just said. I just don't want to use up the time, but I will send it to you, to the board, as I have been sending even more details with even more specific examples and actual data. Because for you not to consider doing this means you do not value environmental education and you're willing to make our children suffer and not be part of the global conversation that the Mayor just told us that we need to compete.
I'll just tell you that is what I'm hearing from you.
Thank you. Chairman recognizes Councilmember Rue Landau. Then we have to take a short break for our stenographer, but we're going to work right through this. Councilmember Rue Landau, you look like --
Thank you. Thank you, Council President, I hear it. Thank you so much for being here again. I'm going to try to go pretty quickly, but I want to just start with the follow up of how the school selection process changes that happened before you got here might -- we don't do a very good job of looking at what the unintended consequences will be to our actions, which is why we're so concerned here. The new lottery took place in 2021, and that was the first centralized lottery. And at the time, it was glaringly apparent that we didn't have algebra in all middle schools in order to enable people to the kids to get to Masterman and also to succeed in the high schools. But still now, we don't have algebra in all the schools that we need, so we're not fixing the problems. Also to -- that we're not fixing the problems that we need in order to make sure that all children have their success. The second thing to say, I think it is a little hard to imagine that you're saying that the school selection process didn't pull kids from their local schools to other schools, which is causing some of the dis-enrollment. It just did. We have to look at the consequences of our actions, and it is incredibly important as we're dealing with deferred maintenance now from years past. I want to go back to Southwark Elementary that I was at the other day as well. We have some wonderful Southwark parents and students here today. The descriptions of the bathroom issues were so outrageous, but I have -- I'm going to focus on one piece that we didn't get to yet. Many of the problems at the bathrooms were also just about locks on the doors or doors taken off of the bathroom. How hard can it be to change and to fix a lock in a bathroom that you've got that planned for 2032? Please tell me that.
Totally agree with you. When a lot needs to be changed, we ought to get to it no 22 matter what -- no matter what the other circumstances are, that ought to be done pretty quickly. I agree with you.
But when you know that, I'm sorry, we sit here, I tell you every single time we're working with facts and trust, and everybody comes in here and says, trust us, trust us. There is no question here; Southwark has been organized. They've been advocating for this. This isn't new information that you're finding out today. These are simple fixes that can happen. And they need to -- the entire process needs to be looked at to see where the problems are. Including, you said you have 18 plumbing positions available and 19 only eight that are filled. Maybe 20 we could take an opportunity now on 21 the record to talk about what other 22 skilled trades you have, what positions you have available, and maybe we could talk to some of our labor union friends and see if they want to fill the jobs.
There is some funding in the upcoming capital improvement plan to get after some of that quicker, rather than later. But not all of it. Colonel?
Thank you, sir. Yes, ma'am, we have applied for a school improvement grant. I believe the number is approximately $1.8 million. The work, in terms of addressing Southwark restroom needs will begin immediately. Again, we're working with the school community. We are not asking folks; our students, our young students to suffer through not having access to the restroom. Measures are being taken right now to relieve the tension and the frustration and unacceptable conditions regarding restrooms at Southwark. That will happen, and it will be done by the beginning -- you will see the results of it going into the next school year, not in 2032.
Thank you. This is one of so many other schools though, so we would like updates on others. Also, could you please submit to the Chair the skilled positions you have in the maintenance department? What is filled and what are vacancies? And I want to get to one other issue which is again, kind of, functions of the world that are causing a lower enrollment and which schools are being affected. So we know that ICE has been out in Philadelphia doing their violent tactics and spreading fear and terrorizing communities. Because of that, there is a -- there are many families where students are scared to go to school. We know that this is causing decreased participation in the schools right now. Not enrollment necessarily, but the kids aren't going to class. And I'm not going to name the schools that have come to me because I don't want anything to happen to them. But there are at least three schools that I know about where they are -- children are not going to school, and because of that, they are being told that they are going to have a decrease in teachers and support staff going forward. We all know with our organizing here in Philadelphia and what is happening around the country; we will get past this. We will get ICE to stop terrorizing our communities. How many schools are being harmed with a decrease in teachers and support staff right now based on ICE activity, keeping enrollment -- keeping student participation down?
Really quickly, I want to answer two questions. Your last question I didn't get to. Since the lottery has come up multiple times, I do want Council to know, Mr. President, that three-and-a-half years ago, we wanted to instill confidence in Philadelphia, that all the issues that parents and family members brought up about the audit, the lottery would get a full review. Because we wanted a -- the best review possible, we didn't ask our internal research team to do it. We didn't even ask Penn or Temple to do it. We went out to the private marketplace and wanted to get a major auditing firm to come into the School District of Philadelphia, which rarely happens in school districts. We wanted folks like KPMG, Deloitte, PricewaterhouseCoopers. Accenture accepted the work. And every year, subsequent to that first year, Accenture does a review of our lottery, an external review, to ask the question, are we -- is it doing what it is designed to do and what a process improvement that need to occur. So we've made great progress in implementation of the lottery, and I won't go into it for purposes of the time. Also, the decline in -- that we're seeing in school enrollments, which have turned around in the past couple of years by 783 students. But the historic 10-year decline was driven more by -- historically has been driven by declining birth rates. The fact that over a 10-year period more students left the district schools to go to charters. That seems to be balancing out and reversing in some -- in some parts of the city. We didn't see a major impact of ICE in school communities last school year because we looked at the data month over month. This year, we're continuing to look at that as things in some places seem to be ratchet up -- ratcheted up in terms of anxiety. If you would be kind enough to share with me offline, any of those schools, I'll personally take a look at it and respond back to you in writing how we will review and support them if indeed that is an impact.
Thank you. I want -- I think, you know, I'm a huge fan of the public school system. I want to do everything I possibly can, as I know all the colleagues do, to make you guys thrive. But there -- we got to look at the decisions we make now and what we see in the future. And I have now been around long enough that I have seen them. My son was a part of that first lottery class with -- you didn't do it, the racist essay and a variety of other things that got us to this place. There is no longer an essay, I just want you to know, just -- we -- they reverse that immediately. I'm going to put one question on the record and send you a couple of others, but I wanted to know that you have a one-to-one device model, which ensures all students can use Chromebooks at school and at home. Are we making good on this commitment? Is there a Chromebook available to every student? How much of the stock is nearing the end of its useful life? And do we have a plan and the funds to replace them? I don't --
Yes, we're committed to every student having a one-to-one Chromebook ratio, and we have a replacement plan. I can't remember the number of years, but we've been moving forward with the replenishment plan. I'll follow up with more details on the record.
Yes. Thank you. I wanted to talk about student SEPTA passes. As you -- as you know, I have been working on; I really want to expand these fare passes. They end at 8 o'clock at night. They are only working during -- when school is open. They don't work over the summer. They don't work on the weekends. Can you detail what students are currently eligible for SEPTA student fare cards? What is the structure used to pay for these cards? What would it cost to expand these cards to students who live within 1.5 miles of their school ensuring they have access to all Philadelphia has to offer? And we know that grades are simply not enough to get our students into quality colleges, university, and other programs. What would it cost to expand the hours the cards can be used so we can ensure students always have transportation to work, study, attend events, go to internships, et cetera?
With President's permission, I would like to ask our chief financial officer, Mike Herbstman, to speak to that. He routinely works with SEPTA and can provide the data -- those numbers.
Good afternoon. Mike Herbstman, chief financial officer for the district, for the record. So right now, we've looked at the expansion, if we were going to include all students for weekends and for the summer, if we're just looking at district operated schools, that expansion would cost approximately $79 million per year. If we also included charter students in that, that amount would raise to about $136 million. To the other parts, I would have to return in writing exactly what the current criteria is for -- which students currently receive it. Those students I know are high school students, and I think down to 5th grade if they are part of a school that goes up to 8th grade. Was there another part to it as well?
If you're under age 12, you go for free. or under, you go for free 6 anyway. It is 1.5 miles from the 7 school. It is from 5:30 a.m. to 8 8:00 p.m., and it is only on the 9 days the schools are available. 10 So maybe you and I can work 11 on some good concrete numbers of 12 what it means to expand those hours at night or weekends and weekends and holidays.
Yes. And just to clarify, the numbers that I gave were just for the students that do not have the free passes. So it would be 5th through 12th grade students that are not currently eligible for the program.
Okay. $79 million for students who are not in the 1.5 miles, but also to expand to weekends and summer?
Okay. We'll talk -- we'll tweak that a little. Thank you.
Can I get one brief point of information. Member Dr. Anthony Phillips.
Just a brief point of information on this entire topic. I just wanted to make sure that myself and the public is very clear, Dr. Watlington and Board President, Streater, if you mind just explaining what does modernization mean for most of these schools and what does renovation -- I just want further clarity on these classifications you're giving for school improvements, is it just like bathroom improvements, wall -- you know, wall improvements? Have you thought that through? Just on it.
Yes, sir. Councilmember Dr. Phillips, modernization means different things in different schools. In some schools, it can mean things like replacing bathrooms. It can mean replacing HVAC systems, heating systems that are old or that are broken down, air conditioning systems. It could mean replacing boilers that are no longer firing or working appropriately. Some are electrical infrastructure so that when they bring in air conditioning units to put in the -- in the windows, they plug them in, they actually work and don't shut off the electrical circuits. Some of it is painting, some of it is lighting. The lion's share of it is not building brand new, complete new schools. There are two or three in this plan, a lot of this is infrastructure that gets us to this outcome. It gets us to the point that we can reduce the number of buildings with unsatisfactory or poor ratings from 85 to zero. Not all of the schools would be Taj Mahals brand new, but they would not be in poor or unsatisfactory ratings, and they would look cosmetically much better. Think about Frankford High School, for example, where there was a $29 million refresh. It will give you one example. For the few new schools we built, which will not be most of them, think of T.M. Peirce, Cassidy, AMY at James Martin, et cetera. And you think of -- about schools like, is it Forrest, that got a major renovation?
Okay. Thank you. I just wanted to -- hopefully if you could share out with -- that with the schools once you do that. Because I don't want the expectation that they see themselves on a list, they're about to get this brand new school, or I think that is just very important also for communities to know too. And hopefully you can work with them to talk about what that looks like; modernization, so they get the needs that they want as well.
Thank you very much. Council hearing will be at ease until 2:45. Chair recognizes Councilmember Squilla.
Yes. I know you want to go to lunch, but I appreciate --
I don't want to go to lunch, I want to make sure the stenographer gets a chance to get a break at her request.
It is rock and roll, you-all. We got to push through. We got individuals here who have to come up for public comment. Chair recognizes Councilmember Kendra Brooks, then Councilmember Quetcy Lozada, then Member Isaiah Thomas. Okay.
Then Councilmember Lozada then Member Isaiah Thomas.
Squilla is in the queue, so when he comes back -- actually, it is his turn, but he is not here now. So go ahead, Member Brooks.
All right. Thank you. So one thing I'm deeply concerned about is what transitions report is going to look like for parents. This information is a key part of any closure plan, and I have not been able to get direct answers about what this will look like. If you are planning on taking a vote to close schools, this needs to be in place and talked about with parents because they will have questions as soon as any closure is voted on. And I want to know what the portfolio of work would look like from the district? And this includes -- I have a series of questions; who within the school district will be assigned to this work? What support will be given to parents? Will the support be accessible to people who work for a living? What will the district be doing to accommodate families with children who have IEPs? And how will this team work with Councilmembers given our office will be hearing directly from communities about the impact of our constituents -- the impact from our constituents?
Just before Dr. Watlington answers, just as a reminder, whenever the resolution comes before the Board of Education, it will not be a resolution to close schools. It'll be a resolution to set off a process mandated by law where there will be school closures at some future juncture, just for information's sake. But Dr. Watlington, please answer the question.
Thank you, President Streater. And Councilmember Brooks, I would say two things, first, the district is already organized into learning networks; geographic learning networks, to push resources closer to parents and families. We did that a couple of years ago. Number two, in addition to assistant superintendents, the people who supervise schools in their -- in their respective learning networks, we are going to staff up a transition office that would report out of my office. Remember unlike 2012, '13, where schools were closed and the savings came, not so much from just closing the schools, but more of the savings came from the personnel costs; the salaries of teachers, principals, counselors, social work, climate managers, et cetera. We are taking some of those resources and moving them with children. And we're taking some of those resources to staff up a dedicated transition office that will be located right out of my office. I will personally be working with that team and the leadership in that team. Once we get some direction from the board of where to go, that staff team will be staffed up pretty quickly. What sorts will -- supports will they provide? It will be a one-stop shop for whatever parents need. They need help with tutoring, transportation, school visits, have -- get -- some get-to-know-you activities, social and emotional and anxiety support and help. Whatever is needed, we will make sure that happens, and that team will make sure that in transition, individualized education plans are followed to the letter.
Okay. So I have a follow up from that question, particularly as it relates to students with disabilities and special needs. One of the things that I feel like needs to be answered is to understand how support staff in schools will be affected by these potential closures? And what will this look like and will they be able to follow their students? And were these trade-offs part of your calculations? And can you speak to the data behind it?
By federal law, individualized education plans require that resources and supports follow a student. Councilmember Kendra Brooks has a child who leaves from school A to go to school B, and your child has speech language -- well, I won't use speech language. I -- well, I'll use speech language, speech language support three days a week for one hour, those supports would travel with you. And this team would help make sure, in addition to the very fine work that our Office of Special Education and Diverse Learners is already doing, there will be an extra layer to make sure nothing falls through the crack.
Can I get a brief point of information on that -- on that line of questioning? I'll be real brief. So the students from Lankenau, and I had no idea you had blind and deaf students that attend that school. So that was new information to me. How would there be a seamless transition to the new school, I guess, what your saw, in terms of accommodating the deaf and blind children?